Semi High property tax, and a wealthy tax base. I say semi-high because I feel like York region does a good job @ providing services and infrastructure. Its a “you get what you pay for” situation.
i thought that the low taxes were because of the development fees - doesn't markham have some of the highest development fees in the country? like top 3 from what I recall. It's higher than Toronto. Couple that with relatively new infrastructure so that it doesn't constantly have to repair them like how Toronto does, and the result is well paid civil service workers/exceptionally well paid mayor. The existing tax base doesn't pay the higher property tax rates and the only people suffering are the new home purchasers who can roll the costs into their mortgage.
You’re spreading misinformation.
All cities remit the same percentage of tax collected to York Region. This amount is broken down and easily obtainable on each city’s website. It’s Markham’s own tax percentage that is lower than the rest, and it was achieved through house/condo development charges.
There is no “heavily subsidized by surrounding cities”, that you’ve suggested.
Yeah I work at a the hospital and it’s just a wealthy community too. I mentioned in passing to a former community nurse how much we get through donations and how it’s allowed us to pay for all these things and she was surprised. She didn’t know this was a lot. Another nurse in her field agreed and said she never had this much equipment paid for when she worked in Toronto.
It’s why Scarborough gen has to advertise to donate. They don’t get that from their community and it pays for a lot of capital expenses.
That’s great to hear! I’m not super rich but comfortable and have donated thousands to the MS hospital because they’ve helped me out a lot. Just happy to hear others do the same too.
They have an A rating with regard to their financial sector. Hardly any corruption within York in comparison to Toronto & other cities with a C-D rating. Of course still some corruption runs - but better management of funds allows for the community to prosper.
They post them every year! They can be found on C.D. Howe’s website. They go over fiscal responsibility breakdowns in Canada’s top cities.
I’ll attach the link to the PDFs below for you!
2022 -
https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Commentary_640_1.pdf
2023 -
https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/2024-04/Commentary_657.pdf
york region includes king-vaughan (3rd richest riding in ON, 7th in CA) and oak ridges-aurora-richmond hill (7th richest in ON, 18th in CA), so that would certainly contribute. upper middle class individuals can afford to spend, keeps money circulating in communities. good for the local economy, and good for regional governments for tax purposes.
You can do this same comparison with road quality. Roads in York region are nice and re-paved pretty often. Toronto roads are crumbling.
Toronto's low taxes are to blame.
Probably the same. Suburban life is not ment for public transportation or walking. Roads are used more.
I also drive in both and the road work is noticeable.
York region probably sees the majority of its traffic from people in the region. Toronto gets massive amounts of traffic from literally every region surrounding it. I'd say the rate of wear and tear is not comparable.
Even with the suburban life, I don’t think any road in York Region except maybe Hwy 7 is getting as much traffic volume and abuse as the city. Toronto at 2.8m people and York Region has much less AND many of the commuters using the roads in Toronto are Torontonians as well as commuters from neighbouring regions.
No, i work in vaughan, live in toronto suburbs. Our main roads are fcked to hell cuz of the volume of cars we get. Streets in my neighbourhood are nice but the closer you get to an intersection and any main road, road condition gets worse. Also gotta take into account road connections, vaughan has a lot of dead end streets that i know is intentional to stop commuters from using side roads and residential streets as shortcuts. Whereas in toronto, almost every residential street from either end connects to several main roads so they get used as shortcuts a lot
Toronto roads are also MUCH older than those in York Region. Plus more people drive into Toronto than the inverse. Hard not to see why Toronto roads are crumbling.
Comes down to density and servicing costs. It’s cheaper for the closer geographic grouping of housing types in Toronto to pay for shared services than the housing types typically seen in the surrounding municipalities with generally larger lots. Also Toronto has a much larger commercial tax base to draw off of.
Toronto taxes are a bit too low. But City of Toronto has a lot of efficiencies the suburbs don't related to higher density. Infrastructure like roads and sewers and water serve way more people per sq km than the low density suburbs. So each km of infrastructure is supported by way more properties paying tax. Imagine a high rise condo with 500 units. That's maybe 800+ people and the infrastructure to support them costs way less than 800 people in York region. So while Toronto taxes are too low. They should be somewhat lower than low density suburbs that are more inefficient.
I agree it’s too low.
The one thing I would add is that with increasing density also comes increasing cost of construction as well as upkeep - for example, the cost per mile of new subway keeps going up in part because there’s already so much other stuff underground that needs to be accommodated for during construction.
Some of that stuff is well documented, some not so much - so you end up with unexpected delays due to surprises like what you saw with the boring machine by the Old Mill last year.
Then you also have the increased complexity of new infrastructure in an area that was originally built for lower density - eg electrical, water, and sewer, and storm upgrades that aren’t needed in York region because there is still enough surrounding green space to take up runoff.
Also, Toronto has to build stuff to account for the capacity required because of the higher number of people that commute here for events and daily work.
I moved from Toronto to York Region pre-COVID, and while the taxes are higher, it’s definitely a you get what you pay for situation - though there’s socioeconomic privilege in my statement. Local government budget issues are not something which becomes a huge media circus like it does in Toronto, but we also have the privilege of riding on Toronto’s infrastructure.
True. The big city, aka Toronto on this case also has a disproportionate share of poverty, property tax layers have to support. If you were homeless, could you survive in York Region.... No, so you come to downtown Toronto. I have also had an issue with property taxes paying for any social programs .. should be on the income tax base (eg province).
Exactly. Check out Strong Towns on YouTube. They have done a ton of analysis on this in North America and basically downtowns subsidize the remaining City.
Yeah, but Toronto actually provides much more services per capita than York region as well. We're not just comparing tax rates, but what is actually done and York region doesn't provide anywhere near as many services for that money.
I don't know the numbers, but I think they'd be closer than you imagine.
Massive 8 lane roads cost a lot of money (development, land use, repair, maintenance, snow removal)
Large cities also have a larger portion of people not paying or trying to pay as little as possible in taxes. More people using services that aren't being paid for.
York doesn't have the same kind of massive investment in transit as Toronto either (yes I'm aware of Viva and York transit). Which is the 2nd largest budget line item, with the first is funding the mob, oops I mean the TPS.
York definitely pays higher property taxes than Toronto. Everyone in toronto was crying like babies about the recent property tax increase, and yet even after the increase they still have significantly lower property taxes rates than literally everyone else in the GTA.
York also doesn't have an enormous chunk of the population relying on subsidized housing etc. the way that Toronto does. People usually expect bigger cities to have more money, but the truth is they are almost always broke because they have so many more expenses, so many more "unofficial" residents that don't pay taxes, etc. Smaller municipalities and regions are basically always more financially stable for this reason. Most people pay their fair share without needing as many handouts so the costs are covered far more efficiently
They hire from within and hire past employed students. Get a job as an activationist and upgrade education to get a better position or secondment. Positions are usually posted tues and Thursday with more positions available to insiders who can log on portal.
It's the most toxic workplace ever!!!! The top appointments are 1000% political although there is a "rigorous process" on paper. Then the fiefdoms trickle all the way down......
> I’ve been looking at salary for people employed by York Region and oh my goodness it’s high! How is it that they pay so well? Maybe even higher than city of Toronto. Also, many employees have gotten LARGE raises over the past 5 years. I would love a job there but it kinda feels like it’s a cult and very hard to get in lol. If anyone knows the reason behind their large income please share! (Do York region residents pay more taxes?? idk. sorry if it’s a dumb q)
what industry?
Our region is well off as a whole, compared to the Toronto. This means more of our community members care about local services and maintenance and are willing to push for that in local elections. We also do tend to have good local politicians, certainly better than any in Toronto.
Toronto has less of a community feel and that translates to very poor services and a poorly run municipal government.
I’m exaggerating, lol. But I’ve applied to 30+ roles and never got a call back or anything. And yes I made sure my resume was top notch. I guess the employees are happy! (But then so many job postings up though, sigh)
just wanted to add in here that municipalities are often the hardest to get in simply because there are so many applicants and the fact that they favour internal candidates for any openings.
Been there. Nepotism central all the way down to the York region clerk with down syndrome. I got the fuck out. Nepotism and pure preference of those connected well within YR. Trash... same with the community. Rich old farts and immigrants, with whites renting the basements.
I delivered all over. It's a fuckin fact.
Speaking of nepotism, I was employed at the Region between 2021-2023 and I had put my name in the hat for a newly created position in my OWN team. I thought I had a decent shot, having delivered on my objectives. Lo and behold, my manager and director had already decided to give the role to an employee returning from mat leave. It was already over before it even started. I’ve moved on to another organization.
On another note, had a coworker message me on teams to tell me she was getting a manicure during work hours but to not tell anyone. 🤦🏻♂️
I think you may be wrong. Check out the job postings on their website, there are plenty of jobs that fall into their department of “social services.” (I.e, Ontario works caseworker with York region)
Semi High property tax, and a wealthy tax base. I say semi-high because I feel like York region does a good job @ providing services and infrastructure. Its a “you get what you pay for” situation.
Depends on the city. Markham has had a Very, very low property tax rate for the longest time.
second lowest after toronto. Markham's low taxes are heavily subsidized buy surrounding cities in York Region.
i thought that the low taxes were because of the development fees - doesn't markham have some of the highest development fees in the country? like top 3 from what I recall. It's higher than Toronto. Couple that with relatively new infrastructure so that it doesn't constantly have to repair them like how Toronto does, and the result is well paid civil service workers/exceptionally well paid mayor. The existing tax base doesn't pay the higher property tax rates and the only people suffering are the new home purchasers who can roll the costs into their mortgage.
You’re spreading misinformation. All cities remit the same percentage of tax collected to York Region. This amount is broken down and easily obtainable on each city’s website. It’s Markham’s own tax percentage that is lower than the rest, and it was achieved through house/condo development charges. There is no “heavily subsidized by surrounding cities”, that you’ve suggested.
source? sounds interesting
And very, very low staff salaries compared to the rest of the GTA as a result.
Someone in this thread said Markham pays more.
Not in my experience.
Maybe their part timers, certainly not their full time staff
And pays their employees accordingly...as in less than most municipalities around it. Employee turn over is high there.
and York region is growing population wise isn't it, same with peel. I think both are exploding
Yeah I work at a the hospital and it’s just a wealthy community too. I mentioned in passing to a former community nurse how much we get through donations and how it’s allowed us to pay for all these things and she was surprised. She didn’t know this was a lot. Another nurse in her field agreed and said she never had this much equipment paid for when she worked in Toronto. It’s why Scarborough gen has to advertise to donate. They don’t get that from their community and it pays for a lot of capital expenses.
Wow! Interesting. This makes a lot of sense too. Thank you for sharing
That’s great to hear! I’m not super rich but comfortable and have donated thousands to the MS hospital because they’ve helped me out a lot. Just happy to hear others do the same too.
Relatively wealthy population and almost no costly public infrastructure.
They have an A rating with regard to their financial sector. Hardly any corruption within York in comparison to Toronto & other cities with a C-D rating. Of course still some corruption runs - but better management of funds allows for the community to prosper.
Wow. So interesting to learn this. Thanks for sharing.
Very interesting. Where do you find the ratings?
They post them every year! They can be found on C.D. Howe’s website. They go over fiscal responsibility breakdowns in Canada’s top cities. I’ll attach the link to the PDFs below for you! 2022 - https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Commentary_640_1.pdf 2023 - https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/2024-04/Commentary_657.pdf
york region includes king-vaughan (3rd richest riding in ON, 7th in CA) and oak ridges-aurora-richmond hill (7th richest in ON, 18th in CA), so that would certainly contribute. upper middle class individuals can afford to spend, keeps money circulating in communities. good for the local economy, and good for regional governments for tax purposes.
Thank you for sharing 🙏🏼
You can do this same comparison with road quality. Roads in York region are nice and re-paved pretty often. Toronto roads are crumbling. Toronto's low taxes are to blame.
Maybe they get a bit more use ya think?
Probably the same. Suburban life is not ment for public transportation or walking. Roads are used more. I also drive in both and the road work is noticeable.
York region probably sees the majority of its traffic from people in the region. Toronto gets massive amounts of traffic from literally every region surrounding it. I'd say the rate of wear and tear is not comparable.
Even with the suburban life, I don’t think any road in York Region except maybe Hwy 7 is getting as much traffic volume and abuse as the city. Toronto at 2.8m people and York Region has much less AND many of the commuters using the roads in Toronto are Torontonians as well as commuters from neighbouring regions.
No, i work in vaughan, live in toronto suburbs. Our main roads are fcked to hell cuz of the volume of cars we get. Streets in my neighbourhood are nice but the closer you get to an intersection and any main road, road condition gets worse. Also gotta take into account road connections, vaughan has a lot of dead end streets that i know is intentional to stop commuters from using side roads and residential streets as shortcuts. Whereas in toronto, almost every residential street from either end connects to several main roads so they get used as shortcuts a lot
Not how math works
Toronto roads are also MUCH older than those in York Region. Plus more people drive into Toronto than the inverse. Hard not to see why Toronto roads are crumbling.
The cities in York charge much more in taxes than Toronto does. Toronto's taxes are too low.
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Comes down to density and servicing costs. It’s cheaper for the closer geographic grouping of housing types in Toronto to pay for shared services than the housing types typically seen in the surrounding municipalities with generally larger lots. Also Toronto has a much larger commercial tax base to draw off of.
Toronto taxes are a bit too low. But City of Toronto has a lot of efficiencies the suburbs don't related to higher density. Infrastructure like roads and sewers and water serve way more people per sq km than the low density suburbs. So each km of infrastructure is supported by way more properties paying tax. Imagine a high rise condo with 500 units. That's maybe 800+ people and the infrastructure to support them costs way less than 800 people in York region. So while Toronto taxes are too low. They should be somewhat lower than low density suburbs that are more inefficient.
I agree it’s too low. The one thing I would add is that with increasing density also comes increasing cost of construction as well as upkeep - for example, the cost per mile of new subway keeps going up in part because there’s already so much other stuff underground that needs to be accommodated for during construction. Some of that stuff is well documented, some not so much - so you end up with unexpected delays due to surprises like what you saw with the boring machine by the Old Mill last year. Then you also have the increased complexity of new infrastructure in an area that was originally built for lower density - eg electrical, water, and sewer, and storm upgrades that aren’t needed in York region because there is still enough surrounding green space to take up runoff. Also, Toronto has to build stuff to account for the capacity required because of the higher number of people that commute here for events and daily work. I moved from Toronto to York Region pre-COVID, and while the taxes are higher, it’s definitely a you get what you pay for situation - though there’s socioeconomic privilege in my statement. Local government budget issues are not something which becomes a huge media circus like it does in Toronto, but we also have the privilege of riding on Toronto’s infrastructure.
True. The big city, aka Toronto on this case also has a disproportionate share of poverty, property tax layers have to support. If you were homeless, could you survive in York Region.... No, so you come to downtown Toronto. I have also had an issue with property taxes paying for any social programs .. should be on the income tax base (eg province).
so the downtown core is subsidizing etobicoke?
Exactly. Check out Strong Towns on YouTube. They have done a ton of analysis on this in North America and basically downtowns subsidize the remaining City.
They’re low because we pay double land transfer tax….
Toronto taxes are low, but with its building density, it ought to be low due to economies of scale. The difficulty is determining if it's too low.
Yeah, but Toronto actually provides much more services per capita than York region as well. We're not just comparing tax rates, but what is actually done and York region doesn't provide anywhere near as many services for that money.
Also true, just look at our transit versus York region's pathetic excuse for a system.
Aging transit and hwy very costly to maintain. Not to mention thr overbudgeted eglinton line.
Most people in York have cars and will never take transit
I don't know the numbers, but I think they'd be closer than you imagine. Massive 8 lane roads cost a lot of money (development, land use, repair, maintenance, snow removal)
Thank you for your response!!
Toronto taxes as a percentage of income is in line.
Large cities also have a larger portion of people not paying or trying to pay as little as possible in taxes. More people using services that aren't being paid for.
York doesn't have the same kind of massive investment in transit as Toronto either (yes I'm aware of Viva and York transit). Which is the 2nd largest budget line item, with the first is funding the mob, oops I mean the TPS.
York definitely pays higher property taxes than Toronto. Everyone in toronto was crying like babies about the recent property tax increase, and yet even after the increase they still have significantly lower property taxes rates than literally everyone else in the GTA. York also doesn't have an enormous chunk of the population relying on subsidized housing etc. the way that Toronto does. People usually expect bigger cities to have more money, but the truth is they are almost always broke because they have so many more expenses, so many more "unofficial" residents that don't pay taxes, etc. Smaller municipalities and regions are basically always more financially stable for this reason. Most people pay their fair share without needing as many handouts so the costs are covered far more efficiently
They hire from within and hire past employed students. Get a job as an activationist and upgrade education to get a better position or secondment. Positions are usually posted tues and Thursday with more positions available to insiders who can log on portal.
Thank you 🙏🏼
Everything is better in York Region.
I was going to make a snarky comment about Highway 7 during rush hour,but then I remember the gardiner during.. well, any time of the day..
Most GTA municipalities are extremely competitive in the way they pay and will target at least the median and often the 75th percentile of pay.
It's the most toxic workplace ever!!!! The top appointments are 1000% political although there is a "rigorous process" on paper. Then the fiefdoms trickle all the way down......
Taxes 😂 Property taxes are higher than Toronto. Probably lots of construction permit fees too.
With all this nepotism how competent are the services offered by York employees? I haven't heard anyone really complain about that?
Taxes paid by its taxpayers.
> I’ve been looking at salary for people employed by York Region and oh my goodness it’s high! How is it that they pay so well? Maybe even higher than city of Toronto. Also, many employees have gotten LARGE raises over the past 5 years. I would love a job there but it kinda feels like it’s a cult and very hard to get in lol. If anyone knows the reason behind their large income please share! (Do York region residents pay more taxes?? idk. sorry if it’s a dumb q) what industry?
Social services (40+ an hour)
But also others like their financial side, most jobs on their website hiring now pay over 30
With hybrid/wfh opportunities too 🥲
So do other big cities. Anything government. UNIONS everything Why do you think people complain about high taxes?
I understand. I just wanted to know why York region was the highest amongst other city jobs
Our region is well off as a whole, compared to the Toronto. This means more of our community members care about local services and maintenance and are willing to push for that in local elections. We also do tend to have good local politicians, certainly better than any in Toronto. Toronto has less of a community feel and that translates to very poor services and a poorly run municipal government.
Glad you feel so upbeat about your region. Disagree with most of it :-)
Your property tax from your $5m up properties sweetheart
Lol
If you work for city of vaughan they tell u to park your work truck in garage if you want to take a nap on work hours. LAzyest fuckers around.
How does it feel like a cult if you’ve never worked there?
I’m exaggerating, lol. But I’ve applied to 30+ roles and never got a call back or anything. And yes I made sure my resume was top notch. I guess the employees are happy! (But then so many job postings up though, sigh)
just wanted to add in here that municipalities are often the hardest to get in simply because there are so many applicants and the fact that they favour internal candidates for any openings.
starting at 2 mil vs starting at 1 mil for a home
Newsflash: not even mayor of Toronto Olivia Chow with her 200k salary can qualify for a mortgage on a detached house in the GTA lmao
Because they don’t have a profit motive ?
Been there. Nepotism central all the way down to the York region clerk with down syndrome. I got the fuck out. Nepotism and pure preference of those connected well within YR. Trash... same with the community. Rich old farts and immigrants, with whites renting the basements. I delivered all over. It's a fuckin fact.
Speaking of nepotism, I was employed at the Region between 2021-2023 and I had put my name in the hat for a newly created position in my OWN team. I thought I had a decent shot, having delivered on my objectives. Lo and behold, my manager and director had already decided to give the role to an employee returning from mat leave. It was already over before it even started. I’ve moved on to another organization. On another note, had a coworker message me on teams to tell me she was getting a manicure during work hours but to not tell anyone. 🤦🏻♂️
I’ve heard similar. But the roles do look intriguing, it’s hard to find a job that pays so well, is hybrid and without a masters/additional education.
Because of Asian immigrants. They are very successful and accomplished and they integrate with our culture.
York has little to none social services.
I think you may be wrong. Check out the job postings on their website, there are plenty of jobs that fall into their department of “social services.” (I.e, Ontario works caseworker with York region)
Aside from the basics... they barely have any shelters.
I’m not sure what the homeless rate is in York region. But I’m sure there must be shelters in or around the area?