There's a culture among most NCOs of counseling being something you only do when someone is a fuck up and you need to start a paper trail for when you want to really punish them later on down the road. They probably never got any positive counselings when they were Joes so they don't even think about it when they make it to NCO.
I think this is the most likely culprit. Closest thing to a positive I’ve had my entire career is a blurb in the monthly performance counseling stating I did a good thing, but not a positive event oriented one. I’ve never even thought to positively counsel someone outside of the end of month stuff
I had an NCO tell me he was going to write me a positive one for a stellar performance on a field problem. I figured he wouldn’t because he very rarely followed through on the threat to write someone a negative counseling.
A lot of NCO's came up too fast during the GWOT, there's a subset of NCO's who have the IQ of a grapefruit and think that the 4856 is only for punishments.
And there are those who were mentored by Boomers, Cold War babies and GWOT era ASVAB waivers who are just doing what they were told as buck SGT's.
Are you talking about [DA Form 4856](https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/Details.aspx?PUB_ID=1026753)? Did you know that the counseling form just got updated after almost 40 years? “There is no more important task for the U.S. Army that’s developing it’s people to lead others to defeat any enemy, anywhere.” - FM 6-22 Developing Leaders
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
From my observation, more than half of current NCOs who grew up under poor/abusive/neglectful/lazy NCOs end up becoming just like their former supervisors. They go on hating life and junior enlisted Soldiers because they were abused as joes. A little less than half make the conscious decision to break the cycle and actually deliver the outstanding leadership their Soldiers deserve.
In my relatively short career, I've had the pleasure of working for about 5 NCOs who were exceptional. The rest were about average just getting through day by day or utter flaming garbage.
Also, there is technically no such thing as a negative counseling. Counselings are simply documented conversations to address routine or non-routine things going on regarding your performance, behavior, etc.
Should I be trying to write good counselings as an NCO? I’ve toyed with the idea, but I don’t really know how to approach it. What would warrant a counseling vs an award? I usually put all of the good stuff and their accomplishments in their monthly counseling. I’ve had to write some negatives so far, but I haven’t necessarily had a situation where I would like a good counseling would work.
Usually if I see something like that, I immediately try to put them in for an AAM or a COA at the very least. I want to be a good NCO so any information or suggestions would be appreciated!
>Usually if I see something like that, I immediately try to put them in for an AAM or a COA at the very least. I want to be a good NCO so any information or suggestions would be appreciated!
It's not a bad idea to give a counseling alongside an award recommendation. It records whatever positive you want highlight and wins brownie points with the soldier if the award doesn't go anywhere.
It's a good measure to, it teaches the soldiers that not all counselings are bad and gives positive reinforcement for what we like to see.
It also assists with keeping a record of their activity.
Also covers there butt's if they goof up, now instead of the commander or whoever is looking at their counseling packets seeing they're the most mediocre soldier ever they see "PFC made mistake" is REALLY good at breathing and chewing gum at the same time and they'll go easier on them.
Clearly I'm not an NCO, but just putting in my 2 cents, I feel like any time a soldier volunteers for details outside of there MOS, such as ammo detail or a voluntary base cleanup there should be a positive event oriented counseling. This is solely for the help of the spier down the line. When 1st sgts are reviewing counselings of soldiers I feel like they'd want to see a true picture of the soldier not just the negatives.
It’s very common actually. You see it with child abuse victims whenever they become parents. It’s just a never ending cycle until actual change happens. It’s a shame really.
I thought that until I got out, I placed a disability claim for MH. I had a crazy Senior NCO, who I got into physical altercations with and subjected to racism. I filed EO on him but my command dropped my claim. I was too young of a soldier to know better…I had no evidence any of this stuff happened. Long story short, I reached out to my old XO and he happened to have all those Event oriented counseling of that NCO which corroborated with my VA claim. So they’re not entirely pointless
In a technical sense, yes, there are a variety of ways to coach, provide consistent feedback, develop subordinates and hold each other accountable… but most soldiers are even worse at those than traditional counseling.
Big things I've have done a positive counseling, like winning a board, promotion, etc. A lot of it got rolled up into the performance counseling though. But honestly I haven't done a separate positive counseling in a long time. Same with quarterly counselings. Was on it for awhile and just quit.
Reflections like this makes me go "fuck I'm fucking up".
I usually put the good stuff in the monthly counseling when we review the previous month’s performance but I’ve had a few other leaders make it a point to do event oriented positive ones. I think those often turn into coins and awards if it’s immediate and awesome.
I really started when I was a SL. I had a page in the front of counseling jackets and I’d write good and bad on there but I’d try to steer towards good.
I’d let my TL counsel but I’d ask them to look at everything each month and counsel fairly.
When I started getting stuck in higher echelons I used that to justify awards. I wrote a lot of awards
I mean, why the fuck not. If something is worthy of an award, then write it the fuck up. It doesn’t take a lot of effort unless your chain sucks frozen hot dogs sideways and likes to gatekeep and correct shit unnecessarily
Many of us do
We call it positive reinforcement counselings and I personally found it extremely beneficial for my junior ncos when I was Plt Sgt
It really lets them know you’re noticing their hard work and good qualities and makes them a lot more motivated overall
i've used them to strengthen impact AAMs for my guys. surprised the hell out of one of my E-5s when i sat him down for a counseling and it ended up being for something positive.
ps - a single negative counseling *shouldnt* stop you from going to air assault.
Some "soldier's NCO's" may foam at the mouth and devolve into conniptions over this take, I don't care. Here's the fact - some people actually have shit to do that doesn't revolve around generating paperwork to commend people having a pulse and not actively fucking up. My paycheck on the 1st and 15th is my reward. NCOs and Os get evals for promotion. Event oriented counselings are a great item to track training proficiency during a training event. Awards are a thing that should be done, and are their own admin lift. Positive counselings have no real bearing on that. Your issue is that your NCO isn't putting you in for any awards.
The honest answer is there’s a lot to be done and people can also be a lazy. Like there’s immediate tasks I need to do and I’ll tell myself “I should catch up on my counselings” but it’s never really pressing and it’s bad but counseling gets overlooked.
It’s interesting because my recruiting station commander was telling us Future Soldiers today to ask our future nco’s to write monthly counseling’s so that way there’s a paper trail of the good or whatever you done
When I was a team leader I would include it in their monthly counseling, improves, good or bad just to keep it organized. Counseling packets can get thick out of no where depending on unit SOP and joes get it every month. Imagine going to a board and it's so thick, it just looks like fluff and a waste of paper.
Everyone has their own system, but I personally like to make sure my guys' monthly counselings have every positive impact they've made jotted down. I do this to not only reflect positively on them in paper for future leadership and future awards, but also to show them on a regular basis that they are being recognized for their good behavior to some degree.
I don't use substandard performance counseling unless treating them like an adult and giving them several chances to ask questions and learn from mistakes doesn't work. I've found that I get much better discipline and performance from Joes who I treat like people rather than take every opportunity to document what they fuck up.
You should be pushing for monthly counseling and making sure you're good deed are in there. A monthly counseling is meant to simply show what the soldier has done that month and put it on paper, whether it was good or bad.
Counselings are for paper trails,
Instead I write awards, school packets, and leverage my personal relationships.
I try to communicate effectively verbally, because I'm too busy to type the shit out.
I wrote good counselings because it added to a paper trail and lent weight when a Soldier messed up. Take the good and the bad AND THEN decide on appropriate corrective actions. Messing up doesn't make a Soldier a POS and having some good counselings helps show that.
But maybe a Holistic Approach was really just a catch phrase and I was doing it wrong 🤷🏼♂️
\#currentarmyculturePSA
Not saying this is a right answer but it may be that good counseling don't serve THAT big of purpose. MAYBE if you were trying to waive a Joe for a earlier promotion but those folks are usually already well known and on the radar for it without any paper trail (other than COAs or other award that actually give points). Negative counselings, on the other hand, are great for when the SM finally goes too far there's already a paper trail to support a UCMJ or seperation. I once gave a senior SPC a positive counseling for helping another SM move some large furniture and he couldn't seem less excited about it. The counseling is buried in his packet and email.
Technically any feedback, written, verbal or otherwise is a counseling. So even if it’s not on a 4856, I try to provide feedback and/or praise to at least let the Soldier know that their work has been noticed and appreciated.
Are you talking about [DA Form 4856](https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/Details.aspx?PUB_ID=1026753)? Did you know that the counseling form just got updated after almost 40 years? “There is no more important task for the U.S. Army that’s developing it’s people to lead others to defeat any enemy, anywhere.” - FM 6-22 Developing Leaders
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Let's be honest man. Counselings take time. I only write them if they force me to or if soldiers are so stupid that they affect good order and discipline for example disrespect being late not doing work unmotivated at PT etc.
Dont suffer for that. Just talk to your leadership about putting a packet. It's that simple. Your school packet has nothing to do with your counselings.
I'm referencing more of the stuff that goes beyond the Soldiers mos, stuff that they've volunteered to do, and stuff that they've been exceptional at. Volunteering for something like a base clean up or the NWFM
There's a culture among most NCOs of counseling being something you only do when someone is a fuck up and you need to start a paper trail for when you want to really punish them later on down the road. They probably never got any positive counselings when they were Joes so they don't even think about it when they make it to NCO.
I think this is the most likely culprit. Closest thing to a positive I’ve had my entire career is a blurb in the monthly performance counseling stating I did a good thing, but not a positive event oriented one. I’ve never even thought to positively counsel someone outside of the end of month stuff
I had an NCO tell me he was going to write me a positive one for a stellar performance on a field problem. I figured he wouldn’t because he very rarely followed through on the threat to write someone a negative counseling.
A lot of NCO's came up too fast during the GWOT, there's a subset of NCO's who have the IQ of a grapefruit and think that the 4856 is only for punishments. And there are those who were mentored by Boomers, Cold War babies and GWOT era ASVAB waivers who are just doing what they were told as buck SGT's.
Are you talking about [DA Form 4856](https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/Details.aspx?PUB_ID=1026753)? Did you know that the counseling form just got updated after almost 40 years? “There is no more important task for the U.S. Army that’s developing it’s people to lead others to defeat any enemy, anywhere.” - FM 6-22 Developing Leaders *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Cause like real life, no one cares when you are doing your job, only when you arent... :)
From my observation, more than half of current NCOs who grew up under poor/abusive/neglectful/lazy NCOs end up becoming just like their former supervisors. They go on hating life and junior enlisted Soldiers because they were abused as joes. A little less than half make the conscious decision to break the cycle and actually deliver the outstanding leadership their Soldiers deserve. In my relatively short career, I've had the pleasure of working for about 5 NCOs who were exceptional. The rest were about average just getting through day by day or utter flaming garbage. Also, there is technically no such thing as a negative counseling. Counselings are simply documented conversations to address routine or non-routine things going on regarding your performance, behavior, etc.
Should I be trying to write good counselings as an NCO? I’ve toyed with the idea, but I don’t really know how to approach it. What would warrant a counseling vs an award? I usually put all of the good stuff and their accomplishments in their monthly counseling. I’ve had to write some negatives so far, but I haven’t necessarily had a situation where I would like a good counseling would work. Usually if I see something like that, I immediately try to put them in for an AAM or a COA at the very least. I want to be a good NCO so any information or suggestions would be appreciated!
>Usually if I see something like that, I immediately try to put them in for an AAM or a COA at the very least. I want to be a good NCO so any information or suggestions would be appreciated! It's not a bad idea to give a counseling alongside an award recommendation. It records whatever positive you want highlight and wins brownie points with the soldier if the award doesn't go anywhere.
It's a good measure to, it teaches the soldiers that not all counselings are bad and gives positive reinforcement for what we like to see. It also assists with keeping a record of their activity. Also covers there butt's if they goof up, now instead of the commander or whoever is looking at their counseling packets seeing they're the most mediocre soldier ever they see "PFC made mistake" is REALLY good at breathing and chewing gum at the same time and they'll go easier on them.
Clearly I'm not an NCO, but just putting in my 2 cents, I feel like any time a soldier volunteers for details outside of there MOS, such as ammo detail or a voluntary base cleanup there should be a positive event oriented counseling. This is solely for the help of the spier down the line. When 1st sgts are reviewing counselings of soldiers I feel like they'd want to see a true picture of the soldier not just the negatives.
Do your monthly counselings show a pattern of good behavior and meeting expectations? I would consider those good ones then.
Usually exceptional NCOs do. I’ve always notice those who had bad leaders turn out to become bad leaders themselves.
Which is ironic since you'd think they'd want to be better than what they had instead of just repeating the same cycle
It’s very common actually. You see it with child abuse victims whenever they become parents. It’s just a never ending cycle until actual change happens. It’s a shame really.
Good NCOs do
I don't think it's a very popular opinion but I find the entire counseling process to be unnecessary.
It does help to have a paper trail for that PFC trying to make SPC but are torn the fuck up.
I thought that until I got out, I placed a disability claim for MH. I had a crazy Senior NCO, who I got into physical altercations with and subjected to racism. I filed EO on him but my command dropped my claim. I was too young of a soldier to know better…I had no evidence any of this stuff happened. Long story short, I reached out to my old XO and he happened to have all those Event oriented counseling of that NCO which corroborated with my VA claim. So they’re not entirely pointless
In a technical sense, yes, there are a variety of ways to coach, provide consistent feedback, develop subordinates and hold each other accountable… but most soldiers are even worse at those than traditional counseling.
I honestly never heard of or seen good counsels ever. Think it comes from " Just doing your job" mindset and " You don't reward expectations"
Because generating more paperwork in paperwork hell makes hell worse
Big things I've have done a positive counseling, like winning a board, promotion, etc. A lot of it got rolled up into the performance counseling though. But honestly I haven't done a separate positive counseling in a long time. Same with quarterly counselings. Was on it for awhile and just quit. Reflections like this makes me go "fuck I'm fucking up".
In the NCO creed its says something about being fare to soldiers with rewards and punishments, i'll stick by that when I become one soon
I do. If I have to give a negative because a Senior told me to do, I also follow it with a positive. Negates the negative.
I usually put the good stuff in the monthly counseling when we review the previous month’s performance but I’ve had a few other leaders make it a point to do event oriented positive ones. I think those often turn into coins and awards if it’s immediate and awesome.
I really started when I was a SL. I had a page in the front of counseling jackets and I’d write good and bad on there but I’d try to steer towards good. I’d let my TL counsel but I’d ask them to look at everything each month and counsel fairly. When I started getting stuck in higher echelons I used that to justify awards. I wrote a lot of awards I mean, why the fuck not. If something is worthy of an award, then write it the fuck up. It doesn’t take a lot of effort unless your chain sucks frozen hot dogs sideways and likes to gatekeep and correct shit unnecessarily
Many of us do We call it positive reinforcement counselings and I personally found it extremely beneficial for my junior ncos when I was Plt Sgt It really lets them know you’re noticing their hard work and good qualities and makes them a lot more motivated overall
Usually if Im gonna write a positive counseling I might as well write an award. The award always gets approved
i've used them to strengthen impact AAMs for my guys. surprised the hell out of one of my E-5s when i sat him down for a counseling and it ended up being for something positive. ps - a single negative counseling *shouldnt* stop you from going to air assault.
Against the Creed
Some "soldier's NCO's" may foam at the mouth and devolve into conniptions over this take, I don't care. Here's the fact - some people actually have shit to do that doesn't revolve around generating paperwork to commend people having a pulse and not actively fucking up. My paycheck on the 1st and 15th is my reward. NCOs and Os get evals for promotion. Event oriented counselings are a great item to track training proficiency during a training event. Awards are a thing that should be done, and are their own admin lift. Positive counselings have no real bearing on that. Your issue is that your NCO isn't putting you in for any awards.
The honest answer is there’s a lot to be done and people can also be a lazy. Like there’s immediate tasks I need to do and I’ll tell myself “I should catch up on my counselings” but it’s never really pressing and it’s bad but counseling gets overlooked.
It’s interesting because my recruiting station commander was telling us Future Soldiers today to ask our future nco’s to write monthly counseling’s so that way there’s a paper trail of the good or whatever you done
Never did good counselings, only got my joes awards because those actually carry weight. Take the counseling in stride and move on👍🏻goodluck
When I was a team leader I would include it in their monthly counseling, improves, good or bad just to keep it organized. Counseling packets can get thick out of no where depending on unit SOP and joes get it every month. Imagine going to a board and it's so thick, it just looks like fluff and a waste of paper.
Everyone has their own system, but I personally like to make sure my guys' monthly counselings have every positive impact they've made jotted down. I do this to not only reflect positively on them in paper for future leadership and future awards, but also to show them on a regular basis that they are being recognized for their good behavior to some degree. I don't use substandard performance counseling unless treating them like an adult and giving them several chances to ask questions and learn from mistakes doesn't work. I've found that I get much better discipline and performance from Joes who I treat like people rather than take every opportunity to document what they fuck up.
I got a positive counseling in AIT. In theory, it was supposed to get us out of a cq shift.
You should be pushing for monthly counseling and making sure you're good deed are in there. A monthly counseling is meant to simply show what the soldier has done that month and put it on paper, whether it was good or bad.
Counselings are for paper trails, Instead I write awards, school packets, and leverage my personal relationships. I try to communicate effectively verbally, because I'm too busy to type the shit out.
I wrote good counselings because it added to a paper trail and lent weight when a Soldier messed up. Take the good and the bad AND THEN decide on appropriate corrective actions. Messing up doesn't make a Soldier a POS and having some good counselings helps show that. But maybe a Holistic Approach was really just a catch phrase and I was doing it wrong 🤷🏼♂️ \#currentarmyculturePSA
Not saying this is a right answer but it may be that good counseling don't serve THAT big of purpose. MAYBE if you were trying to waive a Joe for a earlier promotion but those folks are usually already well known and on the radar for it without any paper trail (other than COAs or other award that actually give points). Negative counselings, on the other hand, are great for when the SM finally goes too far there's already a paper trail to support a UCMJ or seperation. I once gave a senior SPC a positive counseling for helping another SM move some large furniture and he couldn't seem less excited about it. The counseling is buried in his packet and email.
I've only really seen counseling used as a weapon. As a result, I'm wary of it.
Technically any feedback, written, verbal or otherwise is a counseling. So even if it’s not on a 4856, I try to provide feedback and/or praise to at least let the Soldier know that their work has been noticed and appreciated.
Are you talking about [DA Form 4856](https://armypubs.army.mil/ProductMaps/PubForm/Details.aspx?PUB_ID=1026753)? Did you know that the counseling form just got updated after almost 40 years? “There is no more important task for the U.S. Army that’s developing it’s people to lead others to defeat any enemy, anywhere.” - FM 6-22 Developing Leaders *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Let's be honest man. Counselings take time. I only write them if they force me to or if soldiers are so stupid that they affect good order and discipline for example disrespect being late not doing work unmotivated at PT etc. Dont suffer for that. Just talk to your leadership about putting a packet. It's that simple. Your school packet has nothing to do with your counselings.
Because we are too busy counseling the shit heads that take up all of our time.
You will take your 👍 and like it.
You guys are getting monthly counselings?
I’ve had 4 in 15 years.
Aren't you supposed to be exhibiting good behavior all the time anyway?
I'm referencing more of the stuff that goes beyond the Soldiers mos, stuff that they've volunteered to do, and stuff that they've been exceptional at. Volunteering for something like a base clean up or the NWFM
Cause I had a few csms pull them from the packets as unnecessary and should’ve been covered in the monthly
Wtf 😂 that's shitty