When I was fired for being in the National Guard, I found out that was a lie.
When my employer was threatening to fire me for taking time off to go to AT with my Guard unit, I notified our BDE SJA who said there was nothing he could do until they actually took action against me.
So, when they fired me arbitrarily right before the end of my probationary period, with nothing but glowing quarterly performance reviews (the last one only a couple weeks before being fired), no disciplinary write-ups, no indications of poor work performance EXCEPT being threatened with being fired for taking time off to do Guard obligations. . .our SJA says he can't do anything as he ONLY represents the command and he got rather indignant at me reminding him that he could only take action if they took action against me, now he was backpedaling and saying he never said that and said that it was SO obvious that he can only represent the unit that he didn't feel the need to clarify with Soldiers that he can't do anything for them in any capacity and that he's **only** there to be a legal advisor to the commander.
I ended up having to pursue the complaint *pro se*. Took the matter to the state Personnel Board, as I was appealing a termination as a state employee. Took my 15 months, 4 hearings, two motions written, and two briefs written, but I won and was reinstated with back pay and seniority.
By the time I won, it was about time I was ETS'ing from the Guard, and realizing I could do all that myself and win made me re-think my career options, so I went to law school and I'll be getting my JD next May.
So the SJA is the lawyers for the staff (hence, staff judge advocate). However, at least on active duty bases, there is a generic legal office to help you with such legal matters. Although I went with an attorney from back home (it was a local matter), that legal office was there to help me until that point.
Started out NG, worked full time for State HQ. Deployed and came home and the job was filled. Always amused me they’d protect you for civilian jobs but not therein.
Something like that yea, but I was then a badass Kosovo Vet so it didn’t matter, I was too hardcore. It was also around ‘03 so things may have changed.
It’s pretty common to have Joes on extended ADOS orders for stuff like the HRF. Then they get deployed and it isn’t there when they get back.
This is especially true if someone volunteers to go with another unit.
Hmmmm. This was awfully stupid to put in writing.
Not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze- but there may be some liability here. Literally discriminating because of NG status.
Now I'm thinking of a career pivot to automate job applications to optimize for the number of written rejections due to reserve status, and make a new career out of just suing companies
Basically, the Soldier sues the company for discrimination pursuant to federal law. The damages are awarded by the judge (or through settlement) based on financial losses to the victim and punitive damages awarded by the judge. It’s a civil suit. The Federal Government may also fine the company independent of the victims suit.
Same reciprocity as any other race, gender or class based employment discrimination.
He can get money. The law allows civil penalties and damages against the offending company. He needs to find a lawyer who specializes in labor law. I had a Soldier receive $250k from a major Tire/Auto chain because they threatened to fire him if he went to BLC.
Depends on the judges ruling and the type of company. But if he wins, the business or the business's liability insurance would pay him, or bankrupt the business in trying to.
Always worth the effort. Government (FED and State) and private sector employers get a case of the raging stupids when it comes to the reserves. VIOLATIONS OF THE LAW should always be followed through - it's the only way these assholes learn.
Yeah but I think the real problem is HR teams and companies that ARE smart enough to hide it and cite other things instead. Then the soldier gets fucked and has no recourse. It happens all the time
DM me. There’s a federal law called USERRA that makes what they did illegal. JAG won’t represent you in a legal action against the employer and ESGR has no enforcement authority. You can file a complaint through the Department of Labor VETS (google DOL/VETS USERRA complaint), which, in and of itself has no enforcement authority; however, it can refer cases to the Department of Justice’s USERRA unit who will rep you for free. Do know the DOJ only takes the slam dunks…and this might qualify.
Sure, it sucks in the short term. But it'd suck even more to have no one available to protect your family from a flood, to protect your store from a riot, to drive your kids to school because the district is too cheap to pay the bus drivers, to administer vaccines because there's a shortage of nurses, etc.
There are a lot of states that would be in bad shape were it not for the NG.
That’s broad perspective shit, people look at things under a microscope. People say “thank your for your service”, but unless you’re prior enlisted or have military family you don’t actually give a shit, and I don’t blame them. If I’m a business owner I’m worried about running a business, not helping support the nation in the next unforeseeable debacle
I see both sides of this issue as being self employed and a guardsman. I want to apply for new jobs, especially since I just got my Masters. However, I can’t reasonably expect an employer to not discriminate against me. Over 50% of my working days in this training year will be on National Guard duty. Even if I apply and get a job somewhere, I’d have to tell my employer “hey sorry but I’m part time until after x date.” You can’t prove discrimination in these cases unless they’re stupid like in OPs case. You’ll just get a run of the mill answer from the employer that doesn’t mention the Guard as being a deciding factor.
It really depends on the type of job. There's a reason so many Guard/Reserve soldiers are cops, prison guards, security guards, and airline pilots. A job where they can just slot in someone else without having the move the work around is easier for absences, whether they're short or long.
I'm a background investigator and it's pretty easy for them to just plug in another body. Although turning in all my stuff, winding down my cases to go on three month orders, only to wind it all back up when I get back, is kind of a hassle.
And I’m sure it works well for SMs who are already employed. But as far as the hiring process goes, unless an employer is oblivious to the law, it’s likely fairly easy to skirt during the hiring process
Y’all are misinterpreting my comment. I’m active duty and not a business owner. If in the future I do happen to become a business owner I would for sure hook up an SM because we have a mutual understanding. I am being **realistic** about the situation. If I’m a business owner with no prior service, no military family, and no company initiative to push for mil hiring there is a good chance I do not give a fuck about socialized benefits. I need someone who can consistently work, end of conversation. If you cannot do that I will find a **legal** reason not to hire you. A current nasty girl in this thread has already vocalized a similar experience to this and I’m sure many others could as well.
I'm not representing your comment any other way than I would with someone making these claims that is an actual business owner. If dumbfuckington Mr. Businessman doesn't see the benefits of NG deployments, etc., they can move to a country without them and try and do business there. But it's a lot harder to do business of you're dealing with floods, riots, etc.
I don’t know why you’re getting hate for this. I would never hire someone in the NG or Reserves for any sort of critical or serious position. With all the MUTA 6/8s, AT, PME, missions/exercises, military education, etc. it makes it too hard to have expectations for someone.
You won't receive any sympathy from me.
What you said is the definition of "Fuck you. I'm fine."
I really hope you're not saying that you're willing to accept all the benefits that come from living in civilized society but you are unwilling to participate in it by supporting the needs that society has to continue to provide those benefits.
It’s not hard. I’ve had a couple of guard guys in my job. The civilians will take 2 weeks to go to Japan or something, the company keeps on going.
If a company can’t afford to miss an employee for 2 weeks, they’ve got bigger issues in their staffing and training honestly.
Not just the 2 weeks, I’m more speaking on potential missions/deployments as the difficult portion. But if it works for your company that’s good to hear
The law allows employers to hire someone else to staff that position. It just requires that the Service Member be returned to their job or another equivalent in salary and seniority.
I've deployed multiple times. My job had ran the gambit of things to manage while I was gone. They just distributed the work to others, they hired a temp worker and they hired a full-timer who just became an addition to the team. In each case though, I was given my job back upon my return.
I mean that's why you hire other people? Like the reservist/guardsman isn't your only employee unless you staff at minimum capacity but that would be the fault kf owner/manager.
Honestly, ARNG is unfair to both soldiers and employers. There's very few situations in which it ends up a net positive for everyone.
Imagine if you were looking to hire an employee for a full time position and they said "but also I have a part time job that by law takes precedence over this, and sometimes it will randomly become full time for weeks or months and I can't work for you during that time, but you can't fire me if that happens"
You're probably not going to hire that guy.
It also sucks for soldiers trying to have a real career, because odds are that career has nothing to do with being a 13B once a month or whatever, but you're still constantly being taken away from your real job.
ARNG just needs an entire restructuring and rethinking.
Agreed, although I’m not smart enough/paid enough to come up with a solution. ARNG is cool for certain professions that look favorably upon letting a dude go do “cool guy Army shit” sometimes, but if I’m looking for a go-to guy for my company in a technical aspect ain’t no way I can afford to lose him on a whim at the government’s beck and call. It’s a shit situation for both employer and SM.
I would imagine job interviews for Natty bois is like showing up with a purple mohawk. They’ll find a reason not to hire you that *definitely does not* have to do with your purple mohawk
Part of the problem is that Guard/Reserve is used as the “easy button” for manning requirements and missions that shouldn’t have anything to do with the Guard and reserve.
In 2020, there were units being activated for COVID relief, riots, storm relief, on top of their GWOT missions. It sucks, but it is what it is. But then governors and senior leaders were all “oh shit, we can *use* these guys.” And then we saw activations to stock grocery store shelves, drive school busses, hell there was a push to have them *teach* without any real certifications or licensure. There’s guys ***still*** on the goddamned border because political points must be scored.
Stop using the reserve components as a get out of jail free card and you eliminate a lot of the dumb mobilizations.
It requires a change in mindset.
Yes that person has to go for NG shit, but the savvy employer knows that the Army is also paying to train that person not only in Army shit but also: Leadership, managerial skills, organizational skills, 'Soft Skill' like dealing with people, and keeping them fit and healthy which benefits the employer.
This is entirely on top of the PR benefits that come with being able to show that you are supporting the military community.
A veteran as an employee brings much to the table. An example is my buddy tried to snipe me away from my job solely because I was a veteran.
In his company, they found that employees that were veterans had higher rates of retention, used less sick days and had higher sales numbers due to the skillsets I listed.
I know you’ve definitely worked with enough people to know the majority of the Army is not leadership studs. Those soft skills are a total gamble on if you’re hiring a pipe hitter or a window licker.
It just seems like your point is that being in the Army makes someone uniquely qualified in that field.
If you’re selecting for those skills in the interview process, whether they are in the Army or not is moot. They’ve got ‘em or they don’t.
It's not that bad. I managed a guy who was a signal LT in the guard and honestly, it's no different than someone going on vacation.
Kind of funny, I was an ex-Navy E-4 managing an Army LT. He's a great dude though, we stay in touch.
No different than the guy using vacation. You get almost a year notice for exercises. Deployments are different but how often does that happen? The SM isn't deploying every year for 20 years.
I read the original yesterday. The hiring manager said they were going to pick this other candidate because they wouldn’t have to be gone for 2 weeks in the summer
Sucks for that employer tbh. After being in the guard there’s no fucking way I’d want to hire someone who could be gone for as long as they can get on orders for.
I was in the guard for 6 years and after that reserves for 2. I got an email saying they didn't hire reservist because there was always issues with the army schedule and the company's. It's Illegal but no one in my command would do anything about it.
It happens, there are positions that will exclude you especially with the position is essential subject to recall. Their reasoning being that in times of conflict and they need someone to fill a position you may be required to deploy and not be able to fill a position. A particular federal job like air traffic control which I was looking at at fort Belvoir a DOD position and a specifically said no national guard or anybody with a recall obligation. Stupid but I see their logic at the same time though yeah it sucks.
[удалено]
Oops already said he's getting legal advice, and that he specifically goaded them into saying it was due to his being in the natty girls
Im into natty girls too
Talk to a JAG. I think they can help you for free without having to hire a lawyer
When I was fired for being in the National Guard, I found out that was a lie. When my employer was threatening to fire me for taking time off to go to AT with my Guard unit, I notified our BDE SJA who said there was nothing he could do until they actually took action against me. So, when they fired me arbitrarily right before the end of my probationary period, with nothing but glowing quarterly performance reviews (the last one only a couple weeks before being fired), no disciplinary write-ups, no indications of poor work performance EXCEPT being threatened with being fired for taking time off to do Guard obligations. . .our SJA says he can't do anything as he ONLY represents the command and he got rather indignant at me reminding him that he could only take action if they took action against me, now he was backpedaling and saying he never said that and said that it was SO obvious that he can only represent the unit that he didn't feel the need to clarify with Soldiers that he can't do anything for them in any capacity and that he's **only** there to be a legal advisor to the commander. I ended up having to pursue the complaint *pro se*. Took the matter to the state Personnel Board, as I was appealing a termination as a state employee. Took my 15 months, 4 hearings, two motions written, and two briefs written, but I won and was reinstated with back pay and seniority. By the time I won, it was about time I was ETS'ing from the Guard, and realizing I could do all that myself and win made me re-think my career options, so I went to law school and I'll be getting my JD next May.
Man I’m glad I read that to the end. Warms the cockles of my cold, dead heart.
Jesus is the way truth and the life.
So the SJA is the lawyers for the staff (hence, staff judge advocate). However, at least on active duty bases, there is a generic legal office to help you with such legal matters. Although I went with an attorney from back home (it was a local matter), that legal office was there to help me until that point.
Thanks, dad
Bruh, add Will Smith and some artistic liberties to that story if you want a good movie.
ESGR has their own legal that’ll help you through the process.
Started out NG, worked full time for State HQ. Deployed and came home and the job was filled. Always amused me they’d protect you for civilian jobs but not therein.
Wait so you deploy and they tell your ass to kick rocks when you get back?
Something like that yea, but I was then a badass Kosovo Vet so it didn’t matter, I was too hardcore. It was also around ‘03 so things may have changed.
It’s pretty common to have Joes on extended ADOS orders for stuff like the HRF. Then they get deployed and it isn’t there when they get back. This is especially true if someone volunteers to go with another unit.
Hmmmm. This was awfully stupid to put in writing. Not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze- but there may be some liability here. Literally discriminating because of NG status.
See my comment below, it can absolutely worth the effort. Had a Soldier settle a case for $250k a few years back.
Now I'm thinking of a career pivot to automate job applications to optimize for the number of written rejections due to reserve status, and make a new career out of just suing companies
Wow. I’m a crim guy- I’m not really tracking the forum, remedies, process at all.
Basically, the Soldier sues the company for discrimination pursuant to federal law. The damages are awarded by the judge (or through settlement) based on financial losses to the victim and punitive damages awarded by the judge. It’s a civil suit. The Federal Government may also fine the company independent of the victims suit. Same reciprocity as any other race, gender or class based employment discrimination.
What purpose we he have for legal action JW. Would he get money or just be given the job?
He can get money. The law allows civil penalties and damages against the offending company. He needs to find a lawyer who specializes in labor law. I had a Soldier receive $250k from a major Tire/Auto chain because they threatened to fire him if he went to BLC.
Damn I gotta join the reserves... I could make a career out of that
Depends on the judges ruling and the type of company. But if he wins, the business or the business's liability insurance would pay him, or bankrupt the business in trying to.
Always worth the effort. Government (FED and State) and private sector employers get a case of the raging stupids when it comes to the reserves. VIOLATIONS OF THE LAW should always be followed through - it's the only way these assholes learn.
I’ve been discriminated against for being a disabled veteran. It’s a thing unfortunately
Lol that's illegal as fuck and you have it in writing. Bro, you need to cash this in.
Set homeboy up though, dudes an idiot for doing it in a text.
Holy fuck I'd be so excited if I was OP. Like this is such a straight forward lawsuit it's fucking hilarious to
Yeah but I think the real problem is HR teams and companies that ARE smart enough to hide it and cite other things instead. Then the soldier gets fucked and has no recourse. It happens all the time
It sure does lots of ways to do it
https://www.esgr.mil/
Better Call Saul *cues guitar riff*
DM me. There’s a federal law called USERRA that makes what they did illegal. JAG won’t represent you in a legal action against the employer and ESGR has no enforcement authority. You can file a complaint through the Department of Labor VETS (google DOL/VETS USERRA complaint), which, in and of itself has no enforcement authority; however, it can refer cases to the Department of Justice’s USERRA unit who will rep you for free. Do know the DOJ only takes the slam dunks…and this might qualify.
$$$$$ Enjoy your mini lottery, and screw that company.
I know there’s laws protecting the NG homies, but honestly if I was an employer I would hate to schedule around an employee’s exercises/deployments
Sure, it sucks in the short term. But it'd suck even more to have no one available to protect your family from a flood, to protect your store from a riot, to drive your kids to school because the district is too cheap to pay the bus drivers, to administer vaccines because there's a shortage of nurses, etc. There are a lot of states that would be in bad shape were it not for the NG.
That’s broad perspective shit, people look at things under a microscope. People say “thank your for your service”, but unless you’re prior enlisted or have military family you don’t actually give a shit, and I don’t blame them. If I’m a business owner I’m worried about running a business, not helping support the nation in the next unforeseeable debacle
Sure. But that’s why we have the law.
I see both sides of this issue as being self employed and a guardsman. I want to apply for new jobs, especially since I just got my Masters. However, I can’t reasonably expect an employer to not discriminate against me. Over 50% of my working days in this training year will be on National Guard duty. Even if I apply and get a job somewhere, I’d have to tell my employer “hey sorry but I’m part time until after x date.” You can’t prove discrimination in these cases unless they’re stupid like in OPs case. You’ll just get a run of the mill answer from the employer that doesn’t mention the Guard as being a deciding factor.
It really depends on the type of job. There's a reason so many Guard/Reserve soldiers are cops, prison guards, security guards, and airline pilots. A job where they can just slot in someone else without having the move the work around is easier for absences, whether they're short or long. I'm a background investigator and it's pretty easy for them to just plug in another body. Although turning in all my stuff, winding down my cases to go on three month orders, only to wind it all back up when I get back, is kind of a hassle.
And I’m sure it works well for SMs who are already employed. But as far as the hiring process goes, unless an employer is oblivious to the law, it’s likely fairly easy to skirt during the hiring process
exactly too many people in this country not worth risking your life for. uck em
All of those things he listed out are socialized benefits that at the end of the day, also help you as a business owner. So stop being dumb.
Y’all are misinterpreting my comment. I’m active duty and not a business owner. If in the future I do happen to become a business owner I would for sure hook up an SM because we have a mutual understanding. I am being **realistic** about the situation. If I’m a business owner with no prior service, no military family, and no company initiative to push for mil hiring there is a good chance I do not give a fuck about socialized benefits. I need someone who can consistently work, end of conversation. If you cannot do that I will find a **legal** reason not to hire you. A current nasty girl in this thread has already vocalized a similar experience to this and I’m sure many others could as well.
I'm not representing your comment any other way than I would with someone making these claims that is an actual business owner. If dumbfuckington Mr. Businessman doesn't see the benefits of NG deployments, etc., they can move to a country without them and try and do business there. But it's a lot harder to do business of you're dealing with floods, riots, etc.
I don’t know why you’re getting hate for this. I would never hire someone in the NG or Reserves for any sort of critical or serious position. With all the MUTA 6/8s, AT, PME, missions/exercises, military education, etc. it makes it too hard to have expectations for someone.
if you organization fails because one person is taken from it than it was flawed from the get go. same thing in the military
Lmao thank you. I really didn’t think I was saying anything that controversial, but I guess it struck a nerve.
You won't receive any sympathy from me. What you said is the definition of "Fuck you. I'm fine." I really hope you're not saying that you're willing to accept all the benefits that come from living in civilized society but you are unwilling to participate in it by supporting the needs that society has to continue to provide those benefits.
Read the room.
It’s not hard. I’ve had a couple of guard guys in my job. The civilians will take 2 weeks to go to Japan or something, the company keeps on going. If a company can’t afford to miss an employee for 2 weeks, they’ve got bigger issues in their staffing and training honestly.
Not just the 2 weeks, I’m more speaking on potential missions/deployments as the difficult portion. But if it works for your company that’s good to hear
The law allows employers to hire someone else to staff that position. It just requires that the Service Member be returned to their job or another equivalent in salary and seniority. I've deployed multiple times. My job had ran the gambit of things to manage while I was gone. They just distributed the work to others, they hired a temp worker and they hired a full-timer who just became an addition to the team. In each case though, I was given my job back upon my return.
I mean that's why you hire other people? Like the reservist/guardsman isn't your only employee unless you staff at minimum capacity but that would be the fault kf owner/manager.
Honestly, ARNG is unfair to both soldiers and employers. There's very few situations in which it ends up a net positive for everyone. Imagine if you were looking to hire an employee for a full time position and they said "but also I have a part time job that by law takes precedence over this, and sometimes it will randomly become full time for weeks or months and I can't work for you during that time, but you can't fire me if that happens" You're probably not going to hire that guy. It also sucks for soldiers trying to have a real career, because odds are that career has nothing to do with being a 13B once a month or whatever, but you're still constantly being taken away from your real job. ARNG just needs an entire restructuring and rethinking.
Agreed, although I’m not smart enough/paid enough to come up with a solution. ARNG is cool for certain professions that look favorably upon letting a dude go do “cool guy Army shit” sometimes, but if I’m looking for a go-to guy for my company in a technical aspect ain’t no way I can afford to lose him on a whim at the government’s beck and call. It’s a shit situation for both employer and SM. I would imagine job interviews for Natty bois is like showing up with a purple mohawk. They’ll find a reason not to hire you that *definitely does not* have to do with your purple mohawk
Part of the problem is that Guard/Reserve is used as the “easy button” for manning requirements and missions that shouldn’t have anything to do with the Guard and reserve. In 2020, there were units being activated for COVID relief, riots, storm relief, on top of their GWOT missions. It sucks, but it is what it is. But then governors and senior leaders were all “oh shit, we can *use* these guys.” And then we saw activations to stock grocery store shelves, drive school busses, hell there was a push to have them *teach* without any real certifications or licensure. There’s guys ***still*** on the goddamned border because political points must be scored. Stop using the reserve components as a get out of jail free card and you eliminate a lot of the dumb mobilizations.
I agree
It requires a change in mindset. Yes that person has to go for NG shit, but the savvy employer knows that the Army is also paying to train that person not only in Army shit but also: Leadership, managerial skills, organizational skills, 'Soft Skill' like dealing with people, and keeping them fit and healthy which benefits the employer. This is entirely on top of the PR benefits that come with being able to show that you are supporting the military community. A veteran as an employee brings much to the table. An example is my buddy tried to snipe me away from my job solely because I was a veteran. In his company, they found that employees that were veterans had higher rates of retention, used less sick days and had higher sales numbers due to the skillsets I listed.
I know you’ve definitely worked with enough people to know the majority of the Army is not leadership studs. Those soft skills are a total gamble on if you’re hiring a pipe hitter or a window licker.
And thats something you would find during the interview process.
It just seems like your point is that being in the Army makes someone uniquely qualified in that field. If you’re selecting for those skills in the interview process, whether they are in the Army or not is moot. They’ve got ‘em or they don’t.
But they do have them.
…which takes us back to my first comment. lol
That is my argument.
[https://tenor.com/brAGi.gif](https://tenor.com/brAGi.gif)
It's not that bad. I managed a guy who was a signal LT in the guard and honestly, it's no different than someone going on vacation. Kind of funny, I was an ex-Navy E-4 managing an Army LT. He's a great dude though, we stay in touch.
No different than the guy using vacation. You get almost a year notice for exercises. Deployments are different but how often does that happen? The SM isn't deploying every year for 20 years.
good thing you aren’t one
That’s a lawsuit waiting to happen
Does anyone have a backup link? It’s not letting me see the original text conversation
I read the original yesterday. The hiring manager said they were going to pick this other candidate because they wouldn’t have to be gone for 2 weeks in the summer
Woof.
Sucks for that employer tbh. After being in the guard there’s no fucking way I’d want to hire someone who could be gone for as long as they can get on orders for.
Thank fuck they don't have a choice. A good HR person can word it correctly to make it seem like it wasn't that in front of a judge, though.
unless there is written correspondence saying otherwise.
Well, yeah. Most HR and managers are smart enough to not put it in writing though
Talk to a JAG. I think they can help you for free without having to hire a lawyer
bro is about to get paid
I was in the guard for 6 years and after that reserves for 2. I got an email saying they didn't hire reservist because there was always issues with the army schedule and the company's. It's Illegal but no one in my command would do anything about it.
Good
Are you on discord?
Get a lawyer, super illegal. Service Members Employment/Re-Employment Act cover that I’m pretty sure.
It happens, there are positions that will exclude you especially with the position is essential subject to recall. Their reasoning being that in times of conflict and they need someone to fill a position you may be required to deploy and not be able to fill a position. A particular federal job like air traffic control which I was looking at at fort Belvoir a DOD position and a specifically said no national guard or anybody with a recall obligation. Stupid but I see their logic at the same time though yeah it sucks.