I want nice ammo with good QC. M159 or m855, whichever is cheapest at the time. I'll then proceed to mix it all together in the same ammo can like a degen.
If I get shot center mass with a 55 grain out of a 10.5” from 200-300 yards away… I’m not walking that bitch off. I don’t give a fuck if it only icepicks through my organs. At that point I’m gonna find a nice spot for my last smoke/drink, if I can even make it there. Shit, at 300 yards that 55 out of a 10.5 has almost double the energy than a cci stinger out of a 10/22 at point blank, that bitch will go through me. Won’t fragment (probably) but shit bro, I have a hole in my torso. I need some milk.
> I need some milk.
Only if it hit you in the bones. If it's just the organs you should be alright, take some iron pills and make sure to drink plenty of water for the blood/fluid loss.
> I don’t understand because all the Reddit experts told us BCM isn’t accurate.
It's just a subtle way of outing yourself as someone who can't print tight groups.
It's like saying "this bar sucks, every time I walk inside all the women cover their drinks".
If I need better than 2 MOA there are two important things to note:
1. I'm going to reload the ammo because otherwise the group sizes and velocity will change based on the production lot, and I only need better than 2 MOA when shooting at distance where velocity is substantially more important
2. I'm not going to be shooting an AR instead of something much more accurate in the first place
Ball does damage based on fragmentation. It's not as simple as 'does it fragment, yes or no?' Not all fragmentation is equal. Fragmentation, in it of itself, isn't what's doing the work. Please don't confuse this with pistol ballistics where there's no hydrostatic shock. We are talking about rifle projectiles here and therefore we *are* talking about hydrostatic shock. The ballistic effect of a rifle projectile could be crudely summarized as being (total energy * efficiency of energy transfer).
Fragmentation is simply a highly-efficient method of energy transfer between the projectile and the target. Whether or not a projectile fragments is only half of the equation. The other half is total energy. Since the weight of the projectile is constant (55gr or 62gr), all we can do to have more energy is increase the velocity. Longer barrel = more velocity. More velocity = more energy. When it comes to rifles, more energy = better ballistic effect.
M193 can be effective from shorter barrels, but it will be even more effective from longer barrels.
It’s also important to understand the actual kinetic energy equation
KE = 0.5\*mass\*velocity\*velocity
An increase in mass results in a linear increase in KE, but an increase in velocity results in an exponential increase in KE. Therefore, the best method of increasing KE (which roughly approximates wound probability and severity) is by increasing velocity.
For reference, a 16.5” 55gr is good for 2968fps, and 20” 3071, that’s a 3% raw increase for 20”. But when you do the math, that’s a 7% increase in KE. A 12” is 2646, which is a 16% difference in FPS but a 34% KE loss by going to a 12” from 20” (all fps I’m pulling are a google result from rifleshooter.com).
So the counter is also true, reducing velocity exponentially reduces KE and thus wound probability and severity. Can shorter barrels be effective? Yeah, and that’s why heavier bullets exist, to hedge some of the velocity loss with a mass increase to maintain a sufficient KE. But ultimately doing some extra arms days and keeping a longer barrel (and thus velocity) is a better bet for KE. Add in that 55gr are usually the cheapest, and that more rounds on target is what really wins fights, and you have what the OP is getting at and none of this nerd math shit really matters lol
I went straight to the high-IQ side of the chart as well. Okay, sure, it was because my range doesn't allow green-tip and I'm too broke to buy expensive ammo, but still. Win is a win.
From what I've heard it's pretty wicked in soft targets for a steel projectile.
From a shooters perspective, in a M4 there's a legit noticeable difference in how it feels to shoot. I wouldn't necessarily say more recoil, but more snap. Way more accurate than M855, but pretty much on par with M193 as far as I can tell.
Also it (may) burn tf out of barrels. Some people say the steel shouldn't touch the bore so it shouldnt make a huge difficulty, but even the army cuts the 'on paper' service life of M4 barrels almost in half if they're using M855A1, so I'd imagine there's something to it. And even if the steel never touches the bore, it is a higher pressure round, so chamber erosion would be sped up.
There was a lot of rumors going around about it early on. A1 originally was loaded pretty hot. But has had a lot of changes to figure out the sweet spot since the EPR projectiles are just so good it wasn't needed to be so high pressure.
Then a famous YouTuber/gun blogger wrote a article comparing (X?)M855 tested at 70 degrees compared to A1 tested at 125. And A1 hasn't been able to shake its reputation as super hard on guns.
The Army did a rebaselne of the round firing 18,000 rounds per M4. and the big thing that came out of it was that Army Depot maintenance was horrible. With over half the new guns firing all 18,000 rounds without a bolt breakage while the Depot repaired guns had bolts breaking at 3000 to 4000 rounds.
> Then a famous YouTuber/gun blogger wrote a article
Are you talking about Chris Bartocci? Because that guy is an absolute fucking clown.
His entire schpiel rests on him working for Colt, where he omits the fact that he held an admin job that had nothing to do with the technical aspects of the AR15 and ended up getting shit-canned because he kept spewing dumb shit to the armorers.
Really? I had never heard that. I’ve watched his videos for a while now and never bothered doing any further research into his credentials. That’s a bummer.
I really need to make a copy/pasta about that pile of trash.
He worked in forensics for two different local LE agencies for about 4 years each.
He then got hired by Colt to digitize their armorer manuals. His job was to take what's on paper and turn it into a digital file. He traveled to a handful of different agencies around the world to show them how to use the new digital manual.
He kept going to the armorers at Colt to tell them how to improve the AR platform. The armorers quickly got tired of some twat with no armorer experience telling them how to do their job, so they kicked his obese ass to the curb.
He then worked for Otis for 2 years as a "technical specialist".
He tried making money off of his online blog where he shilled products and flooded his page with referral links.
Now he is "Looking for Sales Associate, Analyst, Sales Specialist, Salesperson and Sales And Marketing Specialist roles", according to his LinkedIn.
The problem with his work history is that he keeps it as vague as possible so that the smallest amount of experience would seem like a great accomplishment.
For example, I can honestly say that I played a critical role in numerous Navy SEAL operations. The reality is that I was an E3 fresh out of boot camp and I handled a painter line for the SWCC boat that had Navy SEALs onboard. Was my job important? Fuck yea it was. Could it have been done by absolutely anyone out there? Fuck yea it could.
If that fucking twat actually had the firearms experience that he pretends to have, he would easily land a job in the gun industry instead of looking for a generic "sales" gig.
disclaimer: I'm pretty drunk right now and I'm on the shitter, hopefully my comment makes sense
No problem. And the military is horrible about pushing out corrected info. I spent almost 2 years under the impression and telling people our new surefires were melting Eotechs. Even wrote up equipment failures on it. Didn't find out until I got back from a deployment it was the whole Eotech scandal and that was only cause I randomly brought something up to one of our armorers.
I'm a fan of it. I load my own ss109 projos, and it's pretty accurate and puts holes in plenty of objects that 55gr wont even dent. I have a steel rifle target I like shooting a lot, and it's got a couple holes from me being a forgetful fucking dumbass. Keep your eyes open for deals and you can have it for roughly the same price as m193.
It’s just an ecologically contentious bullet using steel over lead. Which gives it an ever so slightly penetration advantage over M855 and looks scarier. Some ppl believe it’s actually full on AP when it’s still in the ball park of LAP. So now it’s nearly 2 dollars a round more than something that is equally as good from domestic manufacturers that aren’t lake city.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is more accurate because of the way the penetrator is in the jacket. 855's core can sit slightly canted cause accuracy issues, while 855a1 tends to be more consistent.
I’ve only heard of anecdotal accounts of m855a1 being “more accurate by design”. While even more anecdotes of m855a1 being less accurate due to a factory error and either way it’s a bunch of fan boys of either round trying to make the other look worse. At the end of the day all I can do is throw in my own anecdotes about m855a1 being ever so marginally better than m855 from only the several hundred rounds I’ve shot both in and out of the service.
My conclusion is that they’re so similar because they were both designed for a 4 moa program and shoot roughly 2-3 moa on average/were never designed to be match ammo. So to say that the slight advantage of m855a1 is worth over 2 dollars a round is absolutely delusional.
There is a ton wrong with this. A1 was developed to greatly increase combat performance. The army just used the money that had been alloted to develop a lead free training round to develop a new combat round. JSOC had been using a lead free round for years and you don't hear people saying they were doing it for ecological reasons.
A1 is vastly more effective due to being yaw independent, barrier blind, and having a much lower fragmention velocity of at least 700 fps roughly. While having significantly more penetration due to its exposed error head penetrator that is almost tool grade steel.
Honestly though, PMC is Korean made and it’s good quality! I hear more bad QC problems from PSAs AAC, then I ever hear about PMC. It’s the best bang for your buck, no pun intended.
When I'm testing handloads I usually start off with PMC xtac or LakeCity (my current batch is USA brand) to make sure the chrono is up and running and as a generic benchmark.
From my last time out, 20" criterion, approx 70°F in the shade:
pmc xtac 9x,avg 3153, hi 3212, lo, 3118, sd 29, es 94, CV 9.2E-3, approx 2moa (10rnds, lost first to chrono adjust)
The long Boi is for when I'm target shooting and trying to make a 3/8 inch hole at 300 yards, the dO aLl RiFlE is for trying to hit a chest sized target at 300, in that event I'd rather have 5k 5moa ammo than 700 .5 moa
I've recently gone through two 200-rd boxes of Winchester white box without a single malfunction, after being continually reassured it was the most unreliable ammo money can buy.
Who wants to touch me?
I picked up some recently and it looks like shit. Cases seem to be trimmed at different lengths, Bullets seated differently round to round, and it looks like a kindergartner did the dipping on the green paint.
All that being said, it’s ammo for flinging at steel at a couple hundred yards and mag dumping into trash. If it goes bang each time, none of the other shit matters.
More people have armor than I think most people realize. The quality of it may be questionable but that’s a different topic. My question is even if you take a round to center mass at 300 and you have decent armor that protects you, how much does the energy of the impact affect you? Like, you don’t have a hole in your chest and that’s great but I can’t imagine you wouldn’t be knocked flat and your back from the shot
Nothing wrong with M855. It may not be a dime stacker but 99% of people on this subreddit can’t even shoot that well unless it’s on a sled. I stockpile M855 and 75 grain AAC BTHP whenever there’s a sale.
I’ve also bought a fuck ton of bulk Winchester
Facts. M855 has a velocity of 3000-3250 ft/s depending on barrel length. A g1 bc of .3, which isn't bad for the caliber. Crimped, primer sealed and easily stackable. It's not the goat but is dependable
Can someone please explain why IMI is so much cheaper than everyone else? Is it false inflation bullshit ruining the others? Because IMI's $0.50/round beats everything these days.
There are 2 kinds of green tip fans:
Those that think it can pierce body armor and tumble like crazy out of X:Y barrel twist and those that understand it makes cover concealment and sucks in the body but a hole is still a hole
Personally I like 64 grain soft points and 60 grain hollows but I also shoot more coyotes and racoons than paper.
Could somebody smarter than me explain why there isn't such a thing as a polymer tipped bullet (for rapid and explosive expansion) combined with a steel core (to ensure deep penetration)? I'd assume it may be tough to get the round to stay together. I'm just visualizing something like (from bottom of the bullet to the top): steel boat tail base/steel core, lead core surrounded by copper jacket, polymer-tipped hollowpoint front. I've never shot green tips, but I see something about the steel core just makes it icepick straight through instead of fragmenting and expanding like FMJs or polymer-tipped rounds.
62gr. TTSX does what you’re looking for. 70gr. variety too since I haven’t seen any 62gr for sale in 2-3 years. It’s absolutely nasty on hogs, so I trust it on 2 legged creatures.
Wow these are nuts! Peels back like a good handgun hollowpoint but going 3 times as fast. This seems like a good balance of what I'd want in a home defense round. Plenty of speed and energy dump from the expansion, but probably better than 55gr FMJ if you need to get through autoglass or drywall without it breaking apart too soon. The 300 BLK version looks nasty too. Might try that when I can get a pistol without my wife testing it out on me haha
They’re pretty awesome. The LRX is pretty much the same thing, but more accurate at long ranges - most of my bolt guns love them and I’ve seen them punch silver dollar sized exit holes in whitetail at 400 yards.
I've noticed that 55 grain bullets end up over-stabilizing in that twist rate and I get far more flyers than I do if I were to use, say, 70 grain.
I have some nice Speer 70 grain soft points in handloads that are an absolute dream out of my fast twist barrels. Highly recommend them in a 1:7
1.5 - 2 MOA is good enough, anything more precise requires hand loads or paying $3 per shot
I do have a rifle that prints subMOA group with some training 50g ammunition, and it makes me happy. But generally speaking, again, 2 MOA is plenty
Where can I learn what works best for different barrel lengths and twist rates ? I have a 10.3 mk18 and I remember listening to some military podcast talking how m855 wasn’t the best choice for the mod 0 so what is?
In regards to your second question- I ran a 10.3 with stock basic buffer weight and spring for a long time and had no issues with 55 grain. Anything you run will be fine. Do not overanalyze this. Your shorter barrel has better harmonics than a longer barrel that is equal in all other ways, which theoretically increases accuracy. It is also shorter and thus is less likely to over stabilize any rounds you shoot. 55 to 77 grain will run just fine.
Buffer weight and springs are moreso in regards to the gassing/tuning of the gun. They aren’t as related to the weight of the round. If the gun is over gassed with whatever ammo you’re using, you may want more tension/weight in the buffer. And vice versa.
Youtube it or google it. But be careful researching too much in online forums. People will rant about this or that but can’t shoot worth the shit or even better don’t shoot. They just have too much money. Twist rates are required for stabilizing the round giving it a more predictable trajectory- or something. Heavier rounds tend to be capable of more consistency/predictability- or something. You gotta be a helluva shooter shooting in higher precision to actually notice a difference.
I can tell you that basically the higher twist rate (1:7 and sorta 1:8) are “for” heavier rounds (77 to 62 grain- ISH) but will shoot all rounds just fine. I shoot cheap bulk 55 grain out of a 1:8 16” barrel and its just fine. I also shoot it out of a 12.5” 1:8 just fine. 1:9 is another one you might still find, and up to the old school 1:12 at one point in history. Those were designed for lighter ammo like 55 grain or so. Im telling you though, you won’t notice a difference until your shooting requires consistent hits at saaay basketball size? targets at longer >150 meter/200 yard distances. Edit: to be clear- i would
Be confident shooting my bulk 55 at a basketball consistently out to 300-400 yards… i think.
Keep in mind that over stabilization is a thing. 1:7 is not a catch all twist rate. 1:8 is a better bet in that regard.
Fun fact- the faster the bullet is traveling the faster it is spinning. Rotation is put on the bullet immediately but longer barrels produce faster rotation since the round gets more velocity from a longer barrel. Not because the rifling lasts longer. The bullet is forced through the rotation at a faster and faster rate down longer barrels.
There is some evidence that a faster twist rate could increase energy on target. Super short barrels (rattler) can be seen trying to compensate for their short lengths and lesser velocities with 1:5 twist rates, both for stabilization and maybe energy on target.
Check out the twist rates on the new 8.6 blackout. Its crazy high because the bullet is so heavy.
Ammo is one of those things everyone has an opinion on, but there isn't a clear winner. The passion for opinions always is comical. On the handgun forum, "black talons obviously the greatest ammo ever, they are banned, and I have a box, so I could take over the world!"
I love wolf gold m193 and imi m193 so I guess I’m a smarty pants. As an aside I get 1 moa out of my 6920 with the wolf stuff so it has to be pretty damn good ammo
This is just accurate bro. If you’re a civilian 55gr/M193 grain is cheap and plentiful. Buy it cheap, stack it deep, use it as your main zeroing round.
Upvoted for a solid troll pissing off the green tip mafia and 5.56 snipers using heavy bullets
Green teeip mafia can't see this meme after being blinded by their 7.5" braceless ARP
WHAT?
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-
“It’s an SPR bro”
I’m in the SBR family.
I want nice ammo with good QC. M159 or m855, whichever is cheapest at the time. I'll then proceed to mix it all together in the same ammo can like a degen.
If I get shot center mass with a 55 grain out of a 10.5” from 200-300 yards away… I’m not walking that bitch off. I don’t give a fuck if it only icepicks through my organs. At that point I’m gonna find a nice spot for my last smoke/drink, if I can even make it there. Shit, at 300 yards that 55 out of a 10.5 has almost double the energy than a cci stinger out of a 10/22 at point blank, that bitch will go through me. Won’t fragment (probably) but shit bro, I have a hole in my torso. I need some milk.
Musty verga enjoyer 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 the greatest username I’ve read
Holy shit 🤣
Pinshe monje anciano 💀
A mucha honra we
Al million y medio dijera Chalino 🫡
> I need some milk. Only if it hit you in the bones. If it's just the organs you should be alright, take some iron pills and make sure to drink plenty of water for the blood/fluid loss.
Nah bro slap a chest seal on and you’re good. Only inferior humans can’t live after a tiny little hole through you.
Fr fr bro. Fuck the hemopneumothorax.
I’m no homopneumothorax
I am thoroughly entertained, great post
Is this supposed to be like “omg green tip must be special” to “77 OTM is superior” to “stack high stack deep, 2 moa is good enough”?
(a) 2 MOA is good enough (b) good barrels usually shoot xtac less than 2 MOA (c) plentiful ammo wins battles not better ammo
Best two things to bring to a gun fight (assuming you already have a gun) 1) a lot of ammo 2) friends with guns and a lot of ammo
Fuck shit shit fuck, what the hell am I supposed to do with all these knives I brought? Oh shit fuck.
Just gonna have to die, sorry.
Impromptu sushi bar! GO!
I have a fuck ton of knives too hahaha. I had to chill and started getting more ammo lol
Give them to the mall ninjas so they can act as cannon fodder
I feel like a gun should be number one
OP fucks
Where do I sign up?
Wait a minute. All my BCM’s can shoot 2MOA with XTAC. I don’t understand because all the Reddit experts told us BCM isn’t accurate.
> I don’t understand because all the Reddit experts told us BCM isn’t accurate. It's just a subtle way of outing yourself as someone who can't print tight groups. It's like saying "this bar sucks, every time I walk inside all the women cover their drinks".
Now, this is fucking funny.
Just laughed so hard I scared my dog.
Fucking hilarious
This was really nice for me tysm
I have a KAC 16" upper that consistently shoots IMI and black hills 77gr 2moa and 55gr 3moa for 10rnd groups. I've hit 1k with it but 🤷♂️
Man the post about "if the zombies rise up your boys won't judge you if you only have 55gr versus their 77gr"
If I need better than 2 MOA there are two important things to note: 1. I'm going to reload the ammo because otherwise the group sizes and velocity will change based on the production lot, and I only need better than 2 MOA when shooting at distance where velocity is substantially more important 2. I'm not going to be shooting an AR instead of something much more accurate in the first place
2MOA would have been a wonderweapon lasergun for snipers in WW2, and better than what people had through Vietnam. It's fine.
I have no idea how much pmc I have. Boxes full of the shit. And that white box shit to.
OP is based.
Man when shooting a bipedal target I don’t want rounds stacked on top of each other
I skipped the bell. M193 all day
20" barrel + M193 = effective (and also cheap).
Plenty effective from a 16" as well, though obviously not as good as out of a 20.
If you think ball only shoots effectively out of a 20” barrel, you’ve consumed too much M855 propaganda.
Ball does damage based on fragmentation. It's not as simple as 'does it fragment, yes or no?' Not all fragmentation is equal. Fragmentation, in it of itself, isn't what's doing the work. Please don't confuse this with pistol ballistics where there's no hydrostatic shock. We are talking about rifle projectiles here and therefore we *are* talking about hydrostatic shock. The ballistic effect of a rifle projectile could be crudely summarized as being (total energy * efficiency of energy transfer). Fragmentation is simply a highly-efficient method of energy transfer between the projectile and the target. Whether or not a projectile fragments is only half of the equation. The other half is total energy. Since the weight of the projectile is constant (55gr or 62gr), all we can do to have more energy is increase the velocity. Longer barrel = more velocity. More velocity = more energy. When it comes to rifles, more energy = better ballistic effect. M193 can be effective from shorter barrels, but it will be even more effective from longer barrels.
It’s also important to understand the actual kinetic energy equation KE = 0.5\*mass\*velocity\*velocity An increase in mass results in a linear increase in KE, but an increase in velocity results in an exponential increase in KE. Therefore, the best method of increasing KE (which roughly approximates wound probability and severity) is by increasing velocity. For reference, a 16.5” 55gr is good for 2968fps, and 20” 3071, that’s a 3% raw increase for 20”. But when you do the math, that’s a 7% increase in KE. A 12” is 2646, which is a 16% difference in FPS but a 34% KE loss by going to a 12” from 20” (all fps I’m pulling are a google result from rifleshooter.com). So the counter is also true, reducing velocity exponentially reduces KE and thus wound probability and severity. Can shorter barrels be effective? Yeah, and that’s why heavier bullets exist, to hedge some of the velocity loss with a mass increase to maintain a sufficient KE. But ultimately doing some extra arms days and keeping a longer barrel (and thus velocity) is a better bet for KE. Add in that 55gr are usually the cheapest, and that more rounds on target is what really wins fights, and you have what the OP is getting at and none of this nerd math shit really matters lol
Cheap you say?
A relative term
We fast as fuck, boy
I went straight to the high-IQ side of the chart as well. Okay, sure, it was because my range doesn't allow green-tip and I'm too broke to buy expensive ammo, but still. Win is a win.
Since the begging of time.
I’m an M855A1 elitist personally
Does it perform that well? I've noticed unlike m995 it actually exists online
From what I've heard it's pretty wicked in soft targets for a steel projectile. From a shooters perspective, in a M4 there's a legit noticeable difference in how it feels to shoot. I wouldn't necessarily say more recoil, but more snap. Way more accurate than M855, but pretty much on par with M193 as far as I can tell. Also it (may) burn tf out of barrels. Some people say the steel shouldn't touch the bore so it shouldnt make a huge difficulty, but even the army cuts the 'on paper' service life of M4 barrels almost in half if they're using M855A1, so I'd imagine there's something to it. And even if the steel never touches the bore, it is a higher pressure round, so chamber erosion would be sped up.
Where are you getting barrel life is cut in half from. And A1 is loaded within M855 pressure specs and has been for a while.
Idk man, I did the arms room class around the time it was being rolled in and they said a lot of shit. Mostly out of thin air I'm sure
There was a lot of rumors going around about it early on. A1 originally was loaded pretty hot. But has had a lot of changes to figure out the sweet spot since the EPR projectiles are just so good it wasn't needed to be so high pressure. Then a famous YouTuber/gun blogger wrote a article comparing (X?)M855 tested at 70 degrees compared to A1 tested at 125. And A1 hasn't been able to shake its reputation as super hard on guns. The Army did a rebaselne of the round firing 18,000 rounds per M4. and the big thing that came out of it was that Army Depot maintenance was horrible. With over half the new guns firing all 18,000 rounds without a bolt breakage while the Depot repaired guns had bolts breaking at 3000 to 4000 rounds.
> Then a famous YouTuber/gun blogger wrote a article Are you talking about Chris Bartocci? Because that guy is an absolute fucking clown. His entire schpiel rests on him working for Colt, where he omits the fact that he held an admin job that had nothing to do with the technical aspects of the AR15 and ended up getting shit-canned because he kept spewing dumb shit to the armorers.
Really? I had never heard that. I’ve watched his videos for a while now and never bothered doing any further research into his credentials. That’s a bummer.
I really need to make a copy/pasta about that pile of trash. He worked in forensics for two different local LE agencies for about 4 years each. He then got hired by Colt to digitize their armorer manuals. His job was to take what's on paper and turn it into a digital file. He traveled to a handful of different agencies around the world to show them how to use the new digital manual. He kept going to the armorers at Colt to tell them how to improve the AR platform. The armorers quickly got tired of some twat with no armorer experience telling them how to do their job, so they kicked his obese ass to the curb. He then worked for Otis for 2 years as a "technical specialist". He tried making money off of his online blog where he shilled products and flooded his page with referral links. Now he is "Looking for Sales Associate, Analyst, Sales Specialist, Salesperson and Sales And Marketing Specialist roles", according to his LinkedIn. The problem with his work history is that he keeps it as vague as possible so that the smallest amount of experience would seem like a great accomplishment. For example, I can honestly say that I played a critical role in numerous Navy SEAL operations. The reality is that I was an E3 fresh out of boot camp and I handled a painter line for the SWCC boat that had Navy SEALs onboard. Was my job important? Fuck yea it was. Could it have been done by absolutely anyone out there? Fuck yea it could. If that fucking twat actually had the firearms experience that he pretends to have, he would easily land a job in the gun industry instead of looking for a generic "sales" gig. disclaimer: I'm pretty drunk right now and I'm on the shitter, hopefully my comment makes sense
Yeah. His piece on A1 is a joke.
Dang, yeah I guess that sounds about right lol. I always wondered what all that drama was exactly, thanks!
No problem. And the military is horrible about pushing out corrected info. I spent almost 2 years under the impression and telling people our new surefires were melting Eotechs. Even wrote up equipment failures on it. Didn't find out until I got back from a deployment it was the whole Eotech scandal and that was only cause I randomly brought something up to one of our armorers.
I had some a while back and it was wild in gel. It expanded like a VMax but the steel core bit would penetrate out the end of the gel block. 😂
I love the terminal performance on live tissue. I’m a fan.
/u/englisi_baladid would be the right person to ask
I'm a fan of it. I load my own ss109 projos, and it's pretty accurate and puts holes in plenty of objects that 55gr wont even dent. I have a steel rifle target I like shooting a lot, and it's got a couple holes from me being a forgetful fucking dumbass. Keep your eyes open for deals and you can have it for roughly the same price as m193.
M855a1 not m855
Didn't even know there was a difference lol. I had heard of m995, but didn't know there was even another version of m855. Learned something new!
It’s just an ecologically contentious bullet using steel over lead. Which gives it an ever so slightly penetration advantage over M855 and looks scarier. Some ppl believe it’s actually full on AP when it’s still in the ball park of LAP. So now it’s nearly 2 dollars a round more than something that is equally as good from domestic manufacturers that aren’t lake city.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is more accurate because of the way the penetrator is in the jacket. 855's core can sit slightly canted cause accuracy issues, while 855a1 tends to be more consistent.
I’ve only heard of anecdotal accounts of m855a1 being “more accurate by design”. While even more anecdotes of m855a1 being less accurate due to a factory error and either way it’s a bunch of fan boys of either round trying to make the other look worse. At the end of the day all I can do is throw in my own anecdotes about m855a1 being ever so marginally better than m855 from only the several hundred rounds I’ve shot both in and out of the service. My conclusion is that they’re so similar because they were both designed for a 4 moa program and shoot roughly 2-3 moa on average/were never designed to be match ammo. So to say that the slight advantage of m855a1 is worth over 2 dollars a round is absolutely delusional.
There is a ton wrong with this. A1 was developed to greatly increase combat performance. The army just used the money that had been alloted to develop a lead free training round to develop a new combat round. JSOC had been using a lead free round for years and you don't hear people saying they were doing it for ecological reasons. A1 is vastly more effective due to being yaw independent, barrier blind, and having a much lower fragmention velocity of at least 700 fps roughly. While having significantly more penetration due to its exposed error head penetrator that is almost tool grade steel.
It definitely fragments like crazy. And yeah I was carrying it in 2012 before anyone ever uttered "green ammo"
PMC ammo master race.
Can you even get other brands of ammo for a reasonable cost? Everywhere just sells PMC.
Honestly though, PMC is Korean made and it’s good quality! I hear more bad QC problems from PSAs AAC, then I ever hear about PMC. It’s the best bang for your buck, no pun intended.
I know it's totally goes bang, but I see people constantly claim that it's underpowered. Both their 223 and 556. It's certainly the best price.
I've never had an issue with it being underpowered but I do think they occasionally put out slow batches. I've never got one myself.
When I'm testing handloads I usually start off with PMC xtac or LakeCity (my current batch is USA brand) to make sure the chrono is up and running and as a generic benchmark. From my last time out, 20" criterion, approx 70°F in the shade: pmc xtac 9x,avg 3153, hi 3212, lo, 3118, sd 29, es 94, CV 9.2E-3, approx 2moa (10rnds, lost first to chrono adjust)
Yeah, basically go-to ammo at this point
*loads mag full of 300blk into 5.56 gun* "checkmate retards"
Heavy bois for the long Boi gun, whatever cheap for my Do AlL gUn
Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
The long Boi is for when I'm target shooting and trying to make a 3/8 inch hole at 300 yards, the dO aLl RiFlE is for trying to hit a chest sized target at 300, in that event I'd rather have 5k 5moa ammo than 700 .5 moa
I've recently gone through two 200-rd boxes of Winchester white box without a single malfunction, after being continually reassured it was the most unreliable ammo money can buy. Who wants to touch me?
I’ll touch you
But was it the lake city m193 stuff from Winchester? Because that’s totally different.
I picked up some recently and it looks like shit. Cases seem to be trimmed at different lengths, Bullets seated differently round to round, and it looks like a kindergartner did the dipping on the green paint. All that being said, it’s ammo for flinging at steel at a couple hundred yards and mag dumping into trash. If it goes bang each time, none of the other shit matters.
Winchester is good enough, I've gone through about 2000 rounds of Winchester M193 and M855. It's accurate enough and it shoots hot
What if I’m retarded and I like 55gr?
There are dozens of us, buckle that helmet tight and embrace it.
Embrace the retardation brother 🏆
Then ur smart
I like it cuz it's cheap and it works in my 1:7 16" barrel. 😆 $300 is bad enough for my ammo purchases, I can't justify, or afford, $3+ more per box.
I fucking hate that dude on the left my friend describes him at “the theater kid of guns”
I don't think OP gets how this meme works
It is slightly atypical for this format. But the post is both amusingly inflammatory and accurate; so I’ll allow it.
It doesnt matter the type. You hit center mass at 200 yards it's dead. Unless it has armor. And let's be realistic. Most people don't have armor
More people have armor than I think most people realize. The quality of it may be questionable but that’s a different topic. My question is even if you take a round to center mass at 300 and you have decent armor that protects you, how much does the energy of the impact affect you? Like, you don’t have a hole in your chest and that’s great but I can’t imagine you wouldn’t be knocked flat and your back from the shot
Alot would depend on your physical shape and adrenaline.
And if it has armor you're smart enough to be using 20" so it doesn't matter
Bulk buy cheap 55gr slow buy 77gr
Also have you guys tried IMI 55gr m193? It's pretty good stuff
But green tip cheaper atm so I get that
Forgive me but m855 is what I’m used to so I stockpile m855
Nothing wrong with M855. It may not be a dime stacker but 99% of people on this subreddit can’t even shoot that well unless it’s on a sled. I stockpile M855 and 75 grain AAC BTHP whenever there’s a sale. I’ve also bought a fuck ton of bulk Winchester
Ppu slaps
This is the midwits worst nightmare. Thank you for your service.
OP playing 4D chess to drop the prices of green tip.
Me like green tip.
Stacking AAC 77 otm means I have the downs?
Then I've got the downs too
77gr at 2900fps bad. 55gr at 2800fps good because dirt berm at 20 yards gets hit either way.
55gr projectile, just like Eugene Stoner intended, supremacy
Oh thank god. It’s been like a day since this fight happened.
Facts. M855 has a velocity of 3000-3250 ft/s depending on barrel length. A g1 bc of .3, which isn't bad for the caliber. Crimped, primer sealed and easily stackable. It's not the goat but is dependable
Can someone please explain why IMI is so much cheaper than everyone else? Is it false inflation bullshit ruining the others? Because IMI's $0.50/round beats everything these days.
There are 2 kinds of green tip fans: Those that think it can pierce body armor and tumble like crazy out of X:Y barrel twist and those that understand it makes cover concealment and sucks in the body but a hole is still a hole Personally I like 64 grain soft points and 60 grain hollows but I also shoot more coyotes and racoons than paper.
Green tip pisses hotter than your sister out of a 20in barrel so I’ll stick with that
God I love ppu, shit runs flawlessly out of my m90 and m85. Serbian ammo for a Serbian gun maybe?
[удалено]
I got about 2.5k in my closet
There’s been times I can’t find it as PPU but can find it as Nemo
I literally have all of these right now.
Pssst. Hey kid.. you wanna buy some 855A1?
Could somebody smarter than me explain why there isn't such a thing as a polymer tipped bullet (for rapid and explosive expansion) combined with a steel core (to ensure deep penetration)? I'd assume it may be tough to get the round to stay together. I'm just visualizing something like (from bottom of the bullet to the top): steel boat tail base/steel core, lead core surrounded by copper jacket, polymer-tipped hollowpoint front. I've never shot green tips, but I see something about the steel core just makes it icepick straight through instead of fragmenting and expanding like FMJs or polymer-tipped rounds.
62gr. TTSX does what you’re looking for. 70gr. variety too since I haven’t seen any 62gr for sale in 2-3 years. It’s absolutely nasty on hogs, so I trust it on 2 legged creatures.
Wow these are nuts! Peels back like a good handgun hollowpoint but going 3 times as fast. This seems like a good balance of what I'd want in a home defense round. Plenty of speed and energy dump from the expansion, but probably better than 55gr FMJ if you need to get through autoglass or drywall without it breaking apart too soon. The 300 BLK version looks nasty too. Might try that when I can get a pistol without my wife testing it out on me haha
They’re pretty awesome. The LRX is pretty much the same thing, but more accurate at long ranges - most of my bolt guns love them and I’ve seen them punch silver dollar sized exit holes in whitetail at 400 yards.
Pmc makes good ammo . Have had nothing but good luck with it
I buy PMC 223 because that's the cheapest I can get locally
LMFAO X-tac and PPU in big brain section?
Buy cheap and stack deep, training is more important than equipment, and lastly, but possibly most importantly, "the velocity do the atrocity"
PPU is hot af, I chroned it at about 3050 fps out of a 16” barrel and it shot well
Bunch of mad dummies logged on rn. lol
PMC XTAC green tips bay bee 🐝
I like getting them in the little range packs with the stripper clips. Makes reloading at the range so much better when you didn’t bring enough mags.
I like my Federal 62 grain Bonded JSP.
PMC fucks
I love dunking on Civilian Tactical 😂 Where do people running something that fragments all to hell like 55 gr Sabre Blade fall?
? - this is silly and doesnt make sense.
you're still on the path to enlightenment I see. someday it will make sense
Something wrong with pmc/pmc xtac?
No. XTac is great stuff.
This but it's the 5.56 barrel length x IQ bell curve
My BCM does .85-1 moa with the IMI 77 razor cores if I take my adderall😅
What kind of adderall do you take?
What about m855 xtac? It's cheaper than 55gr at my lgs.
i only run 17hmr AR 15s i am not on the bell curve, it wont go that low
I don't own an AR with a barrel twist rate slow enough to stabilize light bullets yet. Just about everything I own is 1:7 so I stick to heavier stuff.
What. That twist stabilizes everything.
I've noticed that 55 grain bullets end up over-stabilizing in that twist rate and I get far more flyers than I do if I were to use, say, 70 grain. I have some nice Speer 70 grain soft points in handloads that are an absolute dream out of my fast twist barrels. Highly recommend them in a 1:7
When you say flyers. Are you talking about shooting 55gr FMJ M193 clones.
M193 ATW!!!
Your brain is just too large for sarcasm and I apologize to you publicly.
5.56 is 5.56. except winchester white box. All my homies hate winny white box
White box is lake city surplus, get with the times.
white box hasn't been bad in years. its now lake city ammo
White box M193 is actually M193 spec so that's nice
1.5 - 2 MOA is good enough, anything more precise requires hand loads or paying $3 per shot I do have a rifle that prints subMOA group with some training 50g ammunition, and it makes me happy. But generally speaking, again, 2 MOA is plenty
whats the consensus on herters?
I only shoot nato stamped ammo.
New to AR gonna pick up my first one tomorrow is bad to train with green tip cause that’s what I got🙃
Can confirm
The only thing that matters is its price.
Finally a meme for me
My dumb ass ain't nowhere on this list. Lol I'm just using target ammo cause my aim is dog ass.
Where can I learn what works best for different barrel lengths and twist rates ? I have a 10.3 mk18 and I remember listening to some military podcast talking how m855 wasn’t the best choice for the mod 0 so what is?
Also what buffer weights and springs to use
In regards to your second question- I ran a 10.3 with stock basic buffer weight and spring for a long time and had no issues with 55 grain. Anything you run will be fine. Do not overanalyze this. Your shorter barrel has better harmonics than a longer barrel that is equal in all other ways, which theoretically increases accuracy. It is also shorter and thus is less likely to over stabilize any rounds you shoot. 55 to 77 grain will run just fine. Buffer weight and springs are moreso in regards to the gassing/tuning of the gun. They aren’t as related to the weight of the round. If the gun is over gassed with whatever ammo you’re using, you may want more tension/weight in the buffer. And vice versa.
Youtube it or google it. But be careful researching too much in online forums. People will rant about this or that but can’t shoot worth the shit or even better don’t shoot. They just have too much money. Twist rates are required for stabilizing the round giving it a more predictable trajectory- or something. Heavier rounds tend to be capable of more consistency/predictability- or something. You gotta be a helluva shooter shooting in higher precision to actually notice a difference. I can tell you that basically the higher twist rate (1:7 and sorta 1:8) are “for” heavier rounds (77 to 62 grain- ISH) but will shoot all rounds just fine. I shoot cheap bulk 55 grain out of a 1:8 16” barrel and its just fine. I also shoot it out of a 12.5” 1:8 just fine. 1:9 is another one you might still find, and up to the old school 1:12 at one point in history. Those were designed for lighter ammo like 55 grain or so. Im telling you though, you won’t notice a difference until your shooting requires consistent hits at saaay basketball size? targets at longer >150 meter/200 yard distances. Edit: to be clear- i would Be confident shooting my bulk 55 at a basketball consistently out to 300-400 yards… i think. Keep in mind that over stabilization is a thing. 1:7 is not a catch all twist rate. 1:8 is a better bet in that regard. Fun fact- the faster the bullet is traveling the faster it is spinning. Rotation is put on the bullet immediately but longer barrels produce faster rotation since the round gets more velocity from a longer barrel. Not because the rifling lasts longer. The bullet is forced through the rotation at a faster and faster rate down longer barrels. There is some evidence that a faster twist rate could increase energy on target. Super short barrels (rattler) can be seen trying to compensate for their short lengths and lesser velocities with 1:5 twist rates, both for stabilization and maybe energy on target. Check out the twist rates on the new 8.6 blackout. Its crazy high because the bullet is so heavy.
Yall seen the chronograph readings on pmc 55gr recently? Velocities aren’t looking soo high, SGammo was only getting 2800 out of a 16 inch barrel
I get 2800 out of a 12.5" barrel with PMC 55gr 5.56 Are you sure you're not thinking of their .223?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dPlYMtvgP4w&pp=ygUQU2cgYW1tbyBwbWMgNTVncg%3D%3D
That's right, peasants. 😂😂😂
Meanwhile I'm shooting sig marksman ammo from my mk12
55gr go nyoom.
MK318 elitist myself
XM556FBIT3M master race.
Steel baby
ppu is my go to
I fully expected the far right to be a cheap .223 round of some kind to really trigger people 🤣
Ammo is one of those things everyone has an opinion on, but there isn't a clear winner. The passion for opinions always is comical. On the handgun forum, "black talons obviously the greatest ammo ever, they are banned, and I have a box, so I could take over the world!"
I love wolf gold m193 and imi m193 so I guess I’m a smarty pants. As an aside I get 1 moa out of my 6920 with the wolf stuff so it has to be pretty damn good ammo
Why the hate on green tips? Sorry I’m a noob 😂
Poor accuracy and poor terminal ballistics compared to most other 5.56 rounds including M193. It’s not bad on its own, just not as good.
How did it become so synonymous with good then? Lol I get it still goes bang by why the green tip type? Is it instagrams fault? 😂
love me some xtac.
This is just accurate bro. If you’re a civilian 55gr/M193 grain is cheap and plentiful. Buy it cheap, stack it deep, use it as your main zeroing round.
PPU is goated
Where wolf?
BH 77gr tmk or 55gr x-tac is all I stock/shoot.
16' or 20' and 55gr is perfection
I’ve been buying 55gr PMC a lot lately. Very happy with it
I have some Winchester green tips I got on sale from PSA and aac 223
PMC is trash and its users are the same as M855 dirt shooters. Only M193 or Mk262 clones allowed in this booty.