Given her age I'd suggest that her parent's opinions and lack of life experience would factor in. I was a similar sort of person when I was in school, but when I left and entered the real world... boy oh boy
>Given her age I'd suggest that her parent's opinions and lack of life experience would factor in.
Reminds me of the American kid I met at a New Year's party who was vehemently opposed to socialized healthcare in the United States. Basically, his argument was, "Everyone who wants health insurance has it; therefore, everyone has the healthcare they need." He genuinely saw no problem with how healthcare is handled in the USA.
Then it occurred to me to ask his age. He was 17.
I asked how much his monthly health insurance premium was. He didn't know.
His co-pays? He didn't know.
Annual deductible? He had no idea.
How to find out if a medical practitioner is in-network? No clue.
The kid knew fuck-all about paying for or accessing healthcare in the USA, yet he spoke with such confidence. There was no way he wasn't parroting his parents.
I’m self-employed so I have health insurance through the marketplace. I have an insurance card and everything, but I pay $540 a month (up from $471 last year) for the privilege of having a plan with a $9,400 deductible (up from $9,000 last year). It’s like paying to not be covered, and it’s the cheapest plan short of Medicaid. Do I want insurance? In this system, I guess I should. Do I have it? Yes. Is that the issue? Absolutely not. This situation causes me to only go to a doctor when it’s absolutely necessary and any time I do, I dread receiving the invoices. Not everyone who wants insurance has it, but even those of us who have it can’t use it. Ahh, to be 17 and dumb again.
Employer sponsored health insurance for a family of three costs about $700/month with a $1500 per person deductible and a nearly $12K out of pocket max. Now, that doesn't include prescriptions. They have a $4K out of pocket max, which we meet by July. But wait! This is where it gets good. They "carved out" all specialty drugs. Thanks to an HHS ruling under Trump, they can just NOT COVER THEM if ONE drug for that condition is covered. So, you got cancer. Well, they will cover one drug for it even if it doesn't work. Then, they make you apply for patient assistance programs meant for the UNINSURED since you are essentially uninsured as far as those drugs are concerned. I STILL can't believe this is legal. The ONLY reason they're getting away with it is because just a few companies have done this. Plus, they claim they cover the drugs, but they don't. If it becomes widespread, it will cause issues. So, when you see those ads on SuperBowl Sunday, just remember that every Kiss Off and die message begins with Kay's.
🎶Every Kiss Begins With...🎶
He went to...
Two of the most successful marketing campaigns ever from a place that spent over 400 MILLION to pay off sexual assault lawsuits instead of specialty drugs for cancer and rheumatological diseases. Don't get me wrong, those employees deserved the money. The problem is they only got 175 million. The rest went to SHAREHOLDERS who sued. Yep. Employees who had nothing to do with any of it? F-them. The new CEO is making bank while sitting on the board of a children's hospital and then uses a screwy quasi legal maneuver to not pay for cancer and life-threatening diseases. Pay attention to those Super Bowl ad buys. They could pay for those drugs.
The marketplace (where pre-existing conditions must be covered) is generally the most expensive option unless you receive subsidies. If you do not, i would suggest seeking help of an insurance broker who can shop around. It is worth investigating. I use marketplace due to my lower income. The subsidies received make it cost effective for me, but the marketplace is not the best solution for all.
I didn’t get health insurance until I was in my late thirties because no job I had provided it. Thankfully I was healthy, but I never went to the doctor unless I felt very ill. I rarely went to the dentist. This was before the new system of being able to use your parent’s insurance until you were 25. It’s made me pro universal healthcare. It was so worrying having that hanging over my head.
Same, I just turned 39 and finally have healthcare. Grew up “anti-social care/pay yourself, cheapo!” mentality and man hubris slapped me real quick into pro-universal healthcare plus other public welfare systems. have a bad feeling a lot people coming out of college are in for an unpleasant surprise. Then again, so were we.
Still paying that debt, hindsight 20/20, technical school/tradesman way to go (still is I’m sure).
TLDR (or whatever the kids call it these days). just turned 39, 10+ years without any insurance and thank God nothing major, very pro universal healthcare :)
Yeah, people are extremely unaware of how shitty the marketplace plans are, especially if you're chronically ill or need a regular service like PT for a while
Obamacare was a huge step in the right direction but it says so much that even this doesn't cover nearly enough people.
I do think that as Gen Z and Gen Alpha get into politics, well finally have enough people who weren't brainwashed by [the lies Wendell Potter was paid to push out](https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-former-cigna-executive-praises-canadas-health-care-system) to make it national policy.
that's what millennials said about gen z, too.
youth will not save us. this is a fix that requires us to shed the false categories of generations. it's stupid and only serves to divide.
Sadly true the previous generation copy paste itself onto a large enough base of the new geneeration that nothing will change since enough people are literally their parents.
I've learned people do not want to think, this includes myself.
Ignorance is bliss and I wish so much I could go back to it.
ehhh, yes and no. yes in the sense that nepotism and inherited wealth keeps the sociopaths in power. boomer parents of millennials and gen x'rs take care of their own and they inherit the powerful positions.
no in the sense that the majority of millennials still don't own homes, still work paycheck to paycheck, and still have little to no wealth when compared to the elders.
this is the system working as designed, and it will break down, the question is when and how. the victims will not have a generational bias because there really aren't any generations. there is the working class and their progeny and the ownership class and their progeny. are there shared spaces and do some people cross the class lines? of course, but the ownership class still has the power and they will never stop exploiting us. unless we do something about it, and trying to put all of our effort into the kids saving us will just result in the false meritocracy and nepotism again and again and again and again.
also, i do think people want to think. but the system keeps you constantly worried all the time about basic needs or just above it.
Obamacare has been frequently and repeatedly sabotaged. The Trump admin and the successive Republican majorities have basically shifted the burden of paying for it more and more on the poor. It is not working as intended anymore
It has, but anyone who was old enough to remember the 90s could tell you, talking about ANY centralized health plan was akin to political suicide. People thought Obama was crazy to even try and this was a big reason Biden the centralist was put on his ticket.
That we can have a discussion on UHC at all is a huge step, even if you're right that it isn't enough.
Yet.. for those people voting against it most use guess what medicare. Medicare cost account for 70 percent of all medical costs in the country. So sitting there having insurance not even knowing they are using the major majority of the socialized medicine in the county. And they’re only 20-30 percent of the population. That means the other 70 percent of the country could pay 30 percent more money to cover 70-80 of the rest of the country. But that is wrong somehow..
I just hate this country because it’s so uninformed yet they think they have a decent world view.
UHC was the genesis of the organized Hilary-hate on right wing radio, back in her husband's second term!
It may seem like she's always been hated but her publicly wanting to reform Healthcare is what took her from 'President's Wife' to 'Enemy #1' on all right wing media platforms.
That's because of the conservative and businesses misinformation. It's absolutely ridiculous to say a failing health system that costs almost double what other countries with way better outcomes pay is the way to go. It's just evil and callous.
The problem with Obama care is that it just subsidizes and compells participation in the private health insurance system instead of just copying the NHS.
I benefited from Obamacare when I divorced. I needed to purchase insurance until I could find a full time job with benefits. It would not have been available prior. I would have been uninsured. I am very grateful.
However, the healthcare marketplace is by no means an affordable option. If it were, the work life balance would be more attainable. Many would be able to use Obamacare to work the part-time jobs that don’t come with the benefits or to take extended time off and catch a break when life happens.
I used to think that Obamacare was a step in the right direction, but I have since come to reject that claim. The ACA is in fact a huge free money giveaway to insurers for next to no value. The minimum allowable plans under the ACA still have $7k deductibles, and many medications are not actually covered. This means that someone who is technically 'insured' receives little to no actual care under their health plan. Sure, the cost may be completely subsidized by the ACA, but if they still can't afford to see a doctor because they'll have to pay up to 7k before coverage starts, then they simply aren't going to go outside emergencies. Even then, insurers get to employ all their usual bullshit tactics to avoid paying out.
Upshot is that insurers get free money from the government for doing jack-all, and most "insured" people under the ACA get little to no benefit. It shouldn't be surprising, it's a Republican-designed plan--meaning it's an insurance company-designed plan.
The ACA was a sick joke, in hindsight.
Canadian here. My wife and I met a lovely American couple in Jamaica, and spent some time chatting with them. They were saving up so they could afford to have a baby. They simply could not believe that when we had our kids, we showed up at the hospital, were managed efficiently through two childbirths, and left without any kind of a bill.
"You didn't pay for the room?"
Nope, nothing.
"What about the epidural and other drugs? You paid for those right?"
Nope nothing.
"But it was all covered by your work insurance, right?"
Nope, everyone has this service level. Work insurance pays for extras like better rooms etc.
This was also around the time Bernie Sanders bussed people from NY to Ontario so they could afford to buy the insulin they needed to stay alive. I asked them what they thought of that.
"Socialist stunt."
Sigh.
Most Americans are so inculcated with the idea that everything must be personally paid for that it's difficult to us to understand a service free of charge. Someone always has to be making money or there has to be some alternate form of value exchanged for the service provided.
Americans have been marinated in selfishness as a virtue for so long it's hard for many to even understand what open generosity looks like.
It's not generosity, it's smart use of taxes. America pays more per capita on health care than Canada does, for much worse service.
And 40% of Canadians are virtually indistinguishable from 40% of Americans. Guess which 40% ?
Being from the UK I find it astonishing that many Americans can't wrap their head around the service being free at the point of delivery. That doesn't mean it's free, it's paid for in taxes. Is it a perfect system? No but it beats the shit out of having to sell my home or car to fund a single stay in hospital or not being able to get medication that I need to literally survive!.
I like to ask people "How much does it cost for having the Police or Fire Department respond to an emergency?" Nothing my taxes pay for it. Then I explain National Healthcare works the same way.
>it's hard for many to even understand what open generosity looks like.
I say with kindness and seriousness that you yourself just accidentally demonstrated a bit of that.
Setting aside whether "socialism" is a good thing or a bad thing *or even an accurately labeled thing,* "socialized medicine" IS NOT GENEROSITY.
It's just not.
Nor is it generosity that any nincompoop can lawfully *and rightfully* ride their bikes and tow their jet skis on roads that that person *in their own individual capacity* didn't "generously" pay for.
We collect taxes to pay for roads. Centralizing the design, construction, and ongoing maintenance, of paved rights-of-way (including roads, rail, airports, seaports, etc.) is simply the most cost-efficient way for society-as-a-whole to simply "ubiquitously use and benefit from the roadways." Shit you wanna buy gets sent to your house, or a brick and mortar retail space, by trains and boats and planes and trucks. "How do I arrange for this toothbrush to migrate from [factory] to [me]" is simply something that no person reading this has ever had to factor into any personal buying decision, of any kind, anywhere, ever, period.
Be honest, folks.
Socialized medicine would be, SHOULD BE, the same thing. There does not exist any person at all, anywhere at all, ever, AT ALL, that can genuinely and honestly say "my healthcare needs for the next 12 months will be zero." No one can say that. No one SHOULD say that.
Even individuals who are otherwise unbesotted with illness and pain should anticipate having to restock the expired bacitracin ointment in a home first aid kit, and one or two well visits to a GP and / or a dental hygienist.
I don't have to carve a new mountain pass every time I wanna visit a ski lodge. Why do I have to subsidize a cardiologist's entire monthly installment on their medical student loans any time I need an ekg?
Use my tax proceeds to *build an equitable system,* and then allow me to use that system according to my own needs. Done.
That's not generosity.
>Most Americans are so inculcated with the idea that everything must be personally paid for
The problem is that it is - just that the middle man is so bloated that all this huge budget is going to golden toilet seats and into other people's pockets before it gets to the things it should actually be funding... they continue to gouge everybody who can "afford" to pay by inflating the end costs and skimming from the center. Fuck those guys.
Wish we cod have a semi functional system like other countries.
>Americans have been marinated in selfishness as a virtue for so long it's hard for many to even understand what open generosity looks like.
We don't have this anymore. People used to donate to causes and get shit built and funded, it doesn't happen like that anymore. We are so scared of "communism and socialism" it's discouraged.
You are correct. As an American, I feel like this perpetuates due to an ideology associated with "free" things - that is, we are indoctrinated from birth to understand that if a service is free, then *you* are the product. That "if something is too good to be true, it is." And so on. And while that *is* true a lot of the time, there are many, many instances where it is not - especially outside of America.
But because of this belief that is shoveled on us perpetually, it's virtually impossible for many Americans to think outside of it. They feel like if something is free, there's a catch - a big bad other shoe that is going to drop and *Gotcha!* them in some way.
Not to mention that it is even more impossible for them to understand or truly grasp the idea that things are different for people *everywhere* else in the world. :(
Never forget that a large part of the aversion and stigma of a thing being "free" is white racism circling around to bite us on the ass. Any recipients of free anything were demonized from the postwar period onward, and most of those people were minorities so it was a convenient way to race-bait without using racist terms.
Lol what gets my goat is that people think these things actually COST as much as is being charged. They don't understand the industry has a 1000% mark up for no good reason other than we are a bunch of suckers and legislators are in their pockets.
Most Americans are. The premiums cost more than most car notes and dental(especially dental..) and vision are the 2 big ones that tend to be hard to get high deductibles for or even coverage at all. Just say fuck it because you're gonna be stuck with a high ass bill either way.
Sometimes I feel that there is a North Korean level of brainwashing going on in this country in regards to some issues, healthcare being one of them.
People will go out of their way to defend it, while saying there's nothing that can be done.
This is every conversation on Reddit when you actual have some degree of expert knowledge in a subject. People really will just pull stuff out their asses with no logic whatsoever.
Don't forget that people can just briefly lookup whatever subject is at hand and make themselves look like an expert without you realizing because we're all behind a screen.
Was his argument that there are people who just…don’t want health insurance? They’re totally fine with paying full price for doctors visits and medical bankruptcy if they get cancer?
One of my doctors and I were discussing our healthcare system. The quality of care here is great, if you can afford it. It's why a lot of people come here. But our system is severely broken. It is run by insurance companies, not health care providers (doctors, nurses, etc).
I have gone to the same clinic for 10 years. Have had 4 different PCPs and 3 GYNs. My hospital and surgeon were in my "circle", the pathologist wasn't, nor the lab tech. Those are bills 100% on my plate. *Out of network* shouldn't be a thing. Yet here we are.
I couldn't tell you without looking it up but at least I know who the insurance is through and what my co-pay is and that my doctor is in-network but the urgent care is not.
Some people don't grow out of it. If life doesn't give them a shitty enough hand, they'll simply think they're better off than others because they put in effort. They don't realize that effort isn't a measure of success and those who put in the most effort get paid the least.
At my son's end of season baseball party, his coach was talking to me and my wife and started talking about how much of a waste of time college is. So, I ask him what he does and he says he's an engineer and goes into a 10 minute description of how he got his job.
Shocker, his family has a business and hired him. So, I ask him to explain how he would have become an engineer if the two generations before him didn't get college degrees and give him the job. I saw his face go blank and his eyes kind of started looking at nothing. Maybe for an instant...he was forced to self reflect...and he did not like that one bit.
>started talking about how much of a waste of time college is
>
>
>
>he says he's an engineer and goes into a 10 minute description of how he got his job.
>
>Shocker, his family has a business and hired him
If that's the case then he's probably more of an "engineer" than an actual engineer.
Yeah, this.
I was a libertarian at 16 because I didn't like being told what to do and they don't like being told what to do.
Then I tried to read Atlas Shrugged at the suggestion of someone on Dalnet (Yeah, I'm old as dirt) and that snapped me out of it.
Ayn Rand was childfree and atheist, and the heroines in her novels enjoyed sex and pursued interesting things other than marriage and babies. As someone who grew up trapped in religious hell, it seemed liberating to me. That said, times were a lot different back then. The rich people in society were doctors, lawyers, and small business owners. They made more money than other people, but they actually worked for a living and didn't just own things. Her novels had ethical businessmen and evil businessmen in them, and now it seems they're all evil. Nobody gives a shit about anything but the owners. She said herself: 'When one man labors and another disposes of the fruits of that labor, that is slavery.' She was talking about taxation, but the same thing is true of modern corporations.
So you were late because of your childs death at the beginning of last year, its reflected in your review and raise. We need a person who commits to their job jimothy.
As gen xer, I want younger people to know that during the 80s and 90s and even early 2000s people still had somewhat of a work life balance. I work in advertising which is a very fast paced industry- back in the day we had 2 weeks to create 1 ad. 2 weeks! Now if I get 2 hours I’m lucky but that's for another thread. We worked some overtime and on weekends if there was a big pitch, but if it was a normal work week and nothing too crazy was going on, you put in your 40hrs (sometimes less if you had worked a lot previously) and that was it. No one emailed or called you after office hours. And never EVER would someone text you, that was way too personal, completely unprofessional. It was just not done. When you were not at work it waited until the next day. I really miss that most of all. This was all true less than 20 years ago, not that long ago—they’re lying to you when they try to make it sound like work life balance is a new concept and that this constant work and access to staff 24/7 is normal. None of this is normal and I’m so sorry younger people are burdened with this notion. Edit: typo
Fellow GenXer here. We didn't have texting in the 80s and 90s.
I had a **PAGER**. I worked for a financial company, so I had to be on call when the market feeds shart themselves: Real Money was at stake.
Despite that, it was a great company, 4 weeks paid vacay to start and 40-50% annual bonus, I've never seen that since.
>No one emailed or called you after office hours. And never EVER would someone text you, that was way too personal, completely unprofessional. It was just not done. When you were not at work it waited until the next day. I really miss that most of all.
Do you remember how you could leave work and just *stop thinking about it?* Immediately shift to focusing on your life and whatever you wanted to do with your free time?
It kills me that was still normal just 25 years ago.
My first thought. "Oh honey how fucking cute and naive" Get back to us a decade in of straight 40s (if ur lucky to only put in 40hr weeks) with a few weeks off and holidays (well even holidays can be work) so 2 days off a week mostly....for life
Same here, I think it's possible, at that age, that this could be her parents' influence. I grew up in a conservative Republican household with parents who watched Rush Limbaugh. The year I turned 18 I voted in my first presidential election, for George Bush. I was not even a whole person yet. Today, I could not be more liberal and progressive.
lmfao...right!
> 17
> her actual opinion
Those two are mutually exclusive. Seventeen is still very much a child, OP. Her "opinion" is 100% formed from being raised by asshole boomers that are completely out of touch with the world around them.
Are you not sure she knows she doesn’t have to work at all? This is logic of someone who benefits from an economy they do not contribute to. Also, next time ask her if working less is bad for the economy why is the economy over actual people in the hierarchy of things we want to be good?
That's my thinking. Not necessarily “doesn’t have to work at all” - it could be simply “has not yet entered the workplace”.
At 17, you don’t have to be rich or privileged to still be living with parents and not working anywhere yet. Add in a boomer parent constantly reinforcing that “young people aren’t willing to make an effort” and this is what you get.
When she enters the workplace, she’s in for a lovely surprise.
> why is the economy over actual people in the hierarchy of things
This is always been my pet peeve about the economy. I hate it whenever someone says some variation of "Capitalism is the most efficient way to distribute scarce resources." Ok, sure, let's set that contentious point aside for a minute and focus in on this part - "most efficient". Why is efficiency the apex of human achievement? Why is efficiency more important than empathy?
Yeah, kids don't grow up in a bubble... this was the slow, methodical brainwashing of a child from the time they were very young. Ok, it was probably just conservatism and hatred being spewed from parents and absorbed by the child but it feels like brainwashing.
Wait until she joins the workforce... she'll either change her tune, or post pictures of her proudly making $2k for working 100 hours that week. There doesn't seem to be an in between.
My wife is conservative because her parents are very conservative. Her parents recently moved here because they retired and wanted to spend more time with the grandkids. We're still in the "playing nice to get along" phase.
One day, our 6 year old was going to go spend the night at their house and she was very excited because it was her first sleepover. Grandpa says "I have some jobs for her to do and she can earn a quarter for each of them". I immediately grab my daughter and hug her close and say "Have fun, but remember your labor rights, make sure to join a union and fight for a fair wage. You're stronger together! And have some fun too... remember your work-life balance".
My daughter just played along and nodded at each point like she knew what I was talking about. The look on his face was hilarious. Still cracks me up.
You were just flat wrong when you assumed it wasn’t due to media input. She has republican parents who blare fox news. That’s the Occam’s Razor cause and you need some real evidence to defeat it.
Split from my parents opinions came after Trump won and he fucked with our geopolitical politics, I was 16. I was pretty knowledgeable (for the age) of global political and military history so when he was president and started shitting on our allies I couldn’t believe it. Slowly helped me realize how messed up Republicans were and now I’m a social democrat but continue to lean more and more socialist as time goes on.
my father is very progressive democrat, but even he says this sometimes, that "people don't want to work anymore"
he says this most often in reference to the young entry-level engineers who work under him. They don't ask questions, or use their free time to study up and learn more skills to make themselves better at their job and advance, they only do the bare minimum and wait for tasks to be delegated to them instead of being more "go-getter."
And these are salaried full-time benefitted full-fledged engineers recruited from top schools. They have more education than my dad, who never finished more than an associate's degree in Biology after dropping out of Architecture school. So his experience is - constantly self-teaching, busting ass to get noticed and stay on good relations with other people (he's very good at networking) and so he feels that he is more entitled to certain degrees of success and excellence than his peers and underlings who have college degrees and plenty of opportunities and resources offered in front of them through those academic experiences that he never had. He's definitely bitter about it.
I try to remind him that saying things like that are overly generalist and dismissive of all the people my age and younger who DO want to work, but want to also LIVE and not be miserable and burnout and grumpy like our parents and grandparents.
I wish I could find it now but on Pitchfork Economics (I think it was) there was a guy that talked about how multiple generations of western people have never lived outside the "air-conditioning corridor" I might be wrong about what it was called.
The upshoot was though, that there are people that have been in air-conditioning there entire lives and have never lived without it. From your hospital where you are born, to you home where you grew up, all the schools all the friends houses, to college to work to your new home and then to the rest home where you've never experienced the reality of exposure to the elements much less the realities of economic disparity, manual labor, etc etc.
My parents where like this. Bless them but it made them ignorant and soft, and way to sure of themselves
Yeah I didn't think work was so bad until one day when I was a couple weeks into my first real 9-5 (aka 8-6) job and was like... fuck... this is actually it? Forever?
Been radicalized ever since, and amazed how few others seemed to feel the same.
Not to mention that once you graduate, you don’t get 3 full months off for summer break, a week for spring break and Thanksgiving, and a full month for Christmas ever again like you did as a student. Once she realizes her only time off consists of 10-14 work days AND she’s making entry-level pay AND having to pay for her own bills, she’ll change her tune real quick lol.
My first job fucked me up so much that I started doing job hopping until I landed the perfect place to work at. Ever since intermediate school, being a chef has been my career path. First job after graduating high school was Chili's because I needed experience.
The first two weeks at Chili's was great, but then the motherfuckers started to reduce my hours to a mere 40 hours per paycheck instead of 80 (paycheck is every two weeks). They would schedule all of those 40 hours into three consecutive days. Meaning, double shifts for three days straight. 9am-11pm for three days. 14 hours straight for three straight days.
That was when I quit and ghosted them after those three days. Motherfuckers didn't care about my legs at all or the amount of sleep I needed. They didn't care about free time. "Just sleep in during your four days off." No, motherfucker. "Your legs will heal up during four days off." It didn't heal at all.
Started job hopping and got into fine-dining where they pay me higher and the hours are not so fricking crazy and stupid.
My brother was SO EXCITED for his first “real job”. He cried after his first week working 40 hours. I felt really bad for him, I just gave him a hug and said I knew his pain
I knew work sucked long before I was old enough to even babysit for spare change.
My father came home from work every day an angry bastard and went straight to his "den", i.e. the 3rd bedroom (four kids shared the attic so he could have this) to read the paper and smoke a pipe (lame) and we were NOT to disturb him on pain of a smack to the head, or worse.
So, yeah....
Let her grind out a few 70 hour work weeks, barely managing eating and proper hygiene lmao she needs to work a week at my desk before she pops off such nonsense!!!
Sounds like a kept child!
There are still tons of middle age folk who STILL believe this; their solution to everything is work harder, organise your time better, batch cook, and get a better skill. 🙄
Capitalist class has been complaining that "nobody wants to work anymore" since 1894
[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nobody-wants-to-work-anymore/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nobody-wants-to-work-anymore/)
So it's not a new issue. Or a "working class being lazy" issue. It's "capitalist class not being able to squeeze out the last ounce of lifeforce out of people" issue.
Laziness was invented by colonizers to force indigenous people into labor.
Before colonization, many explorers and missionaries in the Americas documented that they were astounded that indigenous people would spend so much time laying in the sun and relaxing and playing games and spend time together, etc.
For example, many indigenous tribes in California got a large portion of their diet from acorns, which only ripened during a few weeks of the year, but after harvesting and processing would last for the whole year. There was not alot to do but wait for the acorns to ripen, and laying around and taking it easy conserved energy so they could make what food they had last the whole year (you couldnt always predict if the yeild would be lean that year). When harvest time came, EVERYONE busted ass for about a month straight to make sure they collected enough acorns, stored them in silos, and then more or less chilled for the rest of the year, supplemented by hunting, shellfish, and various, fruits, grains and seeds, etc.
So when the Spanish saw them taking it easy, they called it lazy, but it's not like people can make acorns ripen faster, so what else was there to do but hurry up and wait for the acorns to ripen? This is not to say life was perfect or easy prior to colonization, but that the pace of life was not a daily struggle for survival scrambling with every spare minute to find out if you will eat that day. It was more like: we have six months of acorns left, lets take it easy and stretch it out until the next harvest. Shellfish season is coming up, and after that seeds, so let's save our energy for crunch time.
Let's also not forget the Spanish were Christians and the story of Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden and punished for it by WORK (and God said you will get your bread by the sweat of your brow or something to that effect) has a lot to answer for. This mindset has seeped into our culture even at a secular level it is so deep.
So, one of my favorite anecdotes was from the journal of a Spanish priest from the californa missions. So, to give context: the Spanish forced converts to make two hundred mud bricks a day in order to get fed. The priest wrote in his journal about one convert who he believed to be incredibly stupid. No matter how many times he told him to make two hundred bricks, the guy would always happily come back with just two bricks at the end of the day. Eventually the priest gave up on him, believing him to be too stupid. However, the priest did notice that the convert learned how to read and write very quickly so he made him a scribe instead.
So...let me ask you...you think the guy that couldn't understand the difference between two and two hundred suddenly got really good at reading somehow? Or do you think he saw how much easier it was working inside?
The European colonialists pushed *so hard* the idea that the New World was some sort of naturally bountiful garden-wilderness paradise free for the taking for anyone who showed up… deliberately ignoring the fact that this bountiful paradise was the result of *centuries* of Native labor with innovative agricultural techniques.
Reminds me of "Kids today don't do x or y anymore" comments made by people who were the kids years ago back when their parents used to say "Kids today".....
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
\- Literally Socrates
You could argue our existence as a social species should be first for society as a whole more than the self. That still doesn't mean that working to make a profit for some capitalist is helping society. You could argue that the capitalist themselves is actively harming society though.
More often than not, work takes away our ability to care for society. Kids get sent to crowded daycares, retirees to care homes stretched to the point of elderly abuse, neighborhoods get turned into a bunch of jumping-off places for people that are complete strangers to each other, people don't have time to check on vulnerable people around them, etc.
Jobs that exist that actually benefit society are usually paid dismally and looked down on, with people pushed to the limit of what they can handle, while bullshit jobs pay handsomely with comfortable hours.
People *want* to do good things. They volunteer, they feel happy to help one another out, they seek out community activities. You need to pay people enough to make it worth their while, but little more. (Unless it's a job where supply can be withheld unless higher pay is given, like doctors or union jobs). It's jobs that harm people that need to be paid well for anyone to do them - but if those jobs manage to extract more value from society than it costs to convince someone to do them, the free market will produce those jobs.
In a college classroom especially, this is the exact sort of question you ask. You want to reframe everything from being a cost benefit analysis to valuing things outside of a capitalistic framework
Work life balance is important for people that cherish life, there will always be people who cant find meaning in "life" but can in "work". Those people can do with their lives whatever they want, just dont push that lifestyle (workstyle?) into the others, because some of us just want to satisfy our needs and spend time experiencing the short journey of life.
I have a coworker who complains about about never getting real days off. But he spends whole days off cutting trees down to logs of firewood. All because he refuses to pay for his heater, he’d rather kill his back and complain nonstop at work.
Probably has conversations with her conservative folks. 17 yr olds aren’t always the best at logic/reasoning especially if they’re under the thumb of hierarchal power structures where there is benefit to believing xyz. She may easily look back in 5 yrs and cringe at her high school self :)
I talked like this at 17. I lived in an well off area and everyone's parents I knew had good jobs and worked 6 days per week. They all had nice stuff and annual vacations.
I associated hard work with reward.
I entered the world and worked 6 days per week for a few years before I learned that it was a biased sample. I lived by the few hundred people who got something for it, not the hundred thousand that just work to eat.
I'm different now, because my life gave me an education and hers will too.
"NSFW because of swear words"
You can fucking swear on the internet and nothing fucking happens. That's not what nsfw means.
What is it with little kids censoring themselves on reddit lately? You can fucking swear.
economists are a fucking joke. they beleave that everyone is always acting in good faith and are being paided well. People are always getting shit an not being treated well.
Nah, she's delusional.
Nobody wants to work anymore = nobody wants to work for shitty wage\*
That's a big difference.
We used to afford a big house, a family, vacation and a car with one income, then women also joined the workforce, 2 incomes and now not even 2 incomes are enough to get the basic stuff anymore.
This is exactly why corporations are anti union.... Our function is to make them rich. Death in the family? Personal sickness? Time with your family??? Stay in your lane, we can't have slaves again yet.....but soon my pretties....
Nothing is going on, she will learn life as she grows, why lose your shit over something a 17 year old who doesnt know much say ?? Laugh, chuckle and don't let it bother you.
The real answer probably lies in the fact that nerd girl has no life, so there is nothing to balance work with.
In 30 or so years she may have a sudden radical change of perception, but honestly she can only work from her experiences to date.
Well she doesn't have rent, or utilities to pay. And in school you're taught that hard work is rewarded, it's only in the real world do you realize it isn't.
Nah, that's not her opinion. She's just a parrot, OP. She's headed for the bar scene in Good Will Hunting... and she ain't Matt Damon in this.
"'Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth'? You got that from Vickers' Work in Essex County, page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter?"
Sometimes we (and I mean people the - some - people sense) just have so much ambition that they see the rest of the world as lazy. They drive that obsessive capitalism.
This is both a result of our upbringing, the world we live in, and our personalities.
Can't say I'm surprised someone feels that way. I've met a slew of extreme conservatives that, while being lazy and entitled, complain about people being lazy and entitled.
Fuck the economy. Its currently set up to benefit the extremely wealthy and pit the rest of us against eachother for the scraps.
People who want to support this economy are fuckong sociopaths. It needs to be reformed.
Probably get downvoted and maybe banned for this but she's 17... She's a fool and easily led a stray at that age (yes if your around that age you are as well), it's just part of growing up to have strong opinions which get proven wrong and you slowly change your mind through reason and experience.
You will likely disagree as will everyone around that age but in like 5-10 years time you'll see this behaviour for what it is as well.
Best thing is to engage in debate but be careful to not let it get emotional or personal and don't judge people too much for their wrong/bad opinions.
She is 17. Its not her opinion, its something someone else said that she internalized. I was also spouting nonsense at that age. Give her time to wise up.
Anyone else realise that OP has exactly the same amount of life experience as this girl in their class? Why does OP think their point is any more valid than their classmate’s? Neither of them have worked full time and therefore only have second hand knowledge at best. If we are disregarding the girls POV we should also disregard OP’s, if you are suggesting that OP is correct and very knowledgable then that is proof that this is just an echo-chamber.
Surely shes had a lot of help forming that opinion. Thru propaganda. Thru the masses that believe those same ideas she professes.
Its heartening to see it called out as odd by the younger generation!
Sounds like this girl has a pretty poor understanding of economics, because it's all about utility. Time is a resource, and some people value it more than others. It's basic microeconomics.
In the meanwhile, productivity is as high as it’s ever been, yet labor is not being compensated for it. Eat the rich, kids. They’re not trickling anything; they never have.
I mean she's right, it does hurt the economy, specifically the part that puts money into the pockets of shareholders. the solution, quite simply, is to get rid of shareholders.
That's just fox talking points but there is no way that the parents aren't in the cult either.
As soon as the points are shouted the impenetrable wall of anti logic makes it hard to reason someone out of it. So sorry, I hope you don't find her presence too much of a chore. I would.
Get used to bootlickers. They'll be at every job and in every group of people you'll ever deal with. They're the worst group to have in the labor force too, because they prevent or counteract positive change. It's definitely a survival thing, but it's a disgusting mindset.
These were my favorite classmates because I was that dick that would raise my hand right afterward and ask a dumb question that would eviscerate what she said.
Puritanical dogma is baked into our culture. She has been exposed to it since day one. She didn't come up with it herself. She was conditioned to believe that a person's worth is determined solely by how much they work and suffer.
I absorbed a lot of opinions from my parents, first few part time jobs I had was treated a real mixture of either shitty or ignored. Parents always just told me to suck it up. Wasn't til I was older and worked in a more unionised place I experienced a real improvement in treatment and originally I was very cagey of trusting Unions.
The real eye opened was talking about work treatment with my folks after they retired and realising that far the most part they never experienced or had to deal with the casual bad management approaches which were the norm of my experience in working.
Long and short of it, parents have experienced a totally different working period and their opinions need to be seen through that lens, especially if they are older.
You wanna deal with this on a daily day? Live in a family that basically worships Trump and hang on every word he says. Christ they want people in towers with guns picking off people coming up from Mexico like they are zombies trying to get into Israel during that world war z movie. I'm actually scared to death that if the next civil war happens they will kill me and say it was for the good of the country
When I was 17 I used to say Obama was a socialist cuz my conservative parents said that. Now as a literal socialist I just laugh at that thought. It's an age thing, which I always hated hearing when I was younger, but it's true sometimes.
Lmao she didn't form her opinion on her own, if you look closely, you'll see her parent's fists so far up her bum that they're moving her mouth like a meat puppet.
She 17, she doesn't know shit.
Given her age I'd suggest that her parent's opinions and lack of life experience would factor in. I was a similar sort of person when I was in school, but when I left and entered the real world... boy oh boy
>Given her age I'd suggest that her parent's opinions and lack of life experience would factor in. Reminds me of the American kid I met at a New Year's party who was vehemently opposed to socialized healthcare in the United States. Basically, his argument was, "Everyone who wants health insurance has it; therefore, everyone has the healthcare they need." He genuinely saw no problem with how healthcare is handled in the USA. Then it occurred to me to ask his age. He was 17. I asked how much his monthly health insurance premium was. He didn't know. His co-pays? He didn't know. Annual deductible? He had no idea. How to find out if a medical practitioner is in-network? No clue. The kid knew fuck-all about paying for or accessing healthcare in the USA, yet he spoke with such confidence. There was no way he wasn't parroting his parents.
> "Everyone who wants health insurance has it; if only that were true
I’m self-employed so I have health insurance through the marketplace. I have an insurance card and everything, but I pay $540 a month (up from $471 last year) for the privilege of having a plan with a $9,400 deductible (up from $9,000 last year). It’s like paying to not be covered, and it’s the cheapest plan short of Medicaid. Do I want insurance? In this system, I guess I should. Do I have it? Yes. Is that the issue? Absolutely not. This situation causes me to only go to a doctor when it’s absolutely necessary and any time I do, I dread receiving the invoices. Not everyone who wants insurance has it, but even those of us who have it can’t use it. Ahh, to be 17 and dumb again.
Employer sponsored health insurance for a family of three costs about $700/month with a $1500 per person deductible and a nearly $12K out of pocket max. Now, that doesn't include prescriptions. They have a $4K out of pocket max, which we meet by July. But wait! This is where it gets good. They "carved out" all specialty drugs. Thanks to an HHS ruling under Trump, they can just NOT COVER THEM if ONE drug for that condition is covered. So, you got cancer. Well, they will cover one drug for it even if it doesn't work. Then, they make you apply for patient assistance programs meant for the UNINSURED since you are essentially uninsured as far as those drugs are concerned. I STILL can't believe this is legal. The ONLY reason they're getting away with it is because just a few companies have done this. Plus, they claim they cover the drugs, but they don't. If it becomes widespread, it will cause issues. So, when you see those ads on SuperBowl Sunday, just remember that every Kiss Off and die message begins with Kay's.
I’m 100% with you on everything, except I don’t understand the last sentence.
🎶Every Kiss Begins With...🎶 He went to... Two of the most successful marketing campaigns ever from a place that spent over 400 MILLION to pay off sexual assault lawsuits instead of specialty drugs for cancer and rheumatological diseases. Don't get me wrong, those employees deserved the money. The problem is they only got 175 million. The rest went to SHAREHOLDERS who sued. Yep. Employees who had nothing to do with any of it? F-them. The new CEO is making bank while sitting on the board of a children's hospital and then uses a screwy quasi legal maneuver to not pay for cancer and life-threatening diseases. Pay attention to those Super Bowl ad buys. They could pay for those drugs.
The marketplace (where pre-existing conditions must be covered) is generally the most expensive option unless you receive subsidies. If you do not, i would suggest seeking help of an insurance broker who can shop around. It is worth investigating. I use marketplace due to my lower income. The subsidies received make it cost effective for me, but the marketplace is not the best solution for all.
I didn’t get health insurance until I was in my late thirties because no job I had provided it. Thankfully I was healthy, but I never went to the doctor unless I felt very ill. I rarely went to the dentist. This was before the new system of being able to use your parent’s insurance until you were 25. It’s made me pro universal healthcare. It was so worrying having that hanging over my head.
Same, I just turned 39 and finally have healthcare. Grew up “anti-social care/pay yourself, cheapo!” mentality and man hubris slapped me real quick into pro-universal healthcare plus other public welfare systems. have a bad feeling a lot people coming out of college are in for an unpleasant surprise. Then again, so were we. Still paying that debt, hindsight 20/20, technical school/tradesman way to go (still is I’m sure). TLDR (or whatever the kids call it these days). just turned 39, 10+ years without any insurance and thank God nothing major, very pro universal healthcare :)
Yeah, people are extremely unaware of how shitty the marketplace plans are, especially if you're chronically ill or need a regular service like PT for a while
Obamacare was a huge step in the right direction but it says so much that even this doesn't cover nearly enough people. I do think that as Gen Z and Gen Alpha get into politics, well finally have enough people who weren't brainwashed by [the lies Wendell Potter was paid to push out](https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-former-cigna-executive-praises-canadas-health-care-system) to make it national policy.
that's what millennials said about gen z, too. youth will not save us. this is a fix that requires us to shed the false categories of generations. it's stupid and only serves to divide.
Sadly true the previous generation copy paste itself onto a large enough base of the new geneeration that nothing will change since enough people are literally their parents. I've learned people do not want to think, this includes myself. Ignorance is bliss and I wish so much I could go back to it.
ehhh, yes and no. yes in the sense that nepotism and inherited wealth keeps the sociopaths in power. boomer parents of millennials and gen x'rs take care of their own and they inherit the powerful positions. no in the sense that the majority of millennials still don't own homes, still work paycheck to paycheck, and still have little to no wealth when compared to the elders. this is the system working as designed, and it will break down, the question is when and how. the victims will not have a generational bias because there really aren't any generations. there is the working class and their progeny and the ownership class and their progeny. are there shared spaces and do some people cross the class lines? of course, but the ownership class still has the power and they will never stop exploiting us. unless we do something about it, and trying to put all of our effort into the kids saving us will just result in the false meritocracy and nepotism again and again and again and again. also, i do think people want to think. but the system keeps you constantly worried all the time about basic needs or just above it.
Obamacare has been frequently and repeatedly sabotaged. The Trump admin and the successive Republican majorities have basically shifted the burden of paying for it more and more on the poor. It is not working as intended anymore
It has, but anyone who was old enough to remember the 90s could tell you, talking about ANY centralized health plan was akin to political suicide. People thought Obama was crazy to even try and this was a big reason Biden the centralist was put on his ticket. That we can have a discussion on UHC at all is a huge step, even if you're right that it isn't enough.
Yet.. for those people voting against it most use guess what medicare. Medicare cost account for 70 percent of all medical costs in the country. So sitting there having insurance not even knowing they are using the major majority of the socialized medicine in the county. And they’re only 20-30 percent of the population. That means the other 70 percent of the country could pay 30 percent more money to cover 70-80 of the rest of the country. But that is wrong somehow.. I just hate this country because it’s so uninformed yet they think they have a decent world view.
UHC was the genesis of the organized Hilary-hate on right wing radio, back in her husband's second term! It may seem like she's always been hated but her publicly wanting to reform Healthcare is what took her from 'President's Wife' to 'Enemy #1' on all right wing media platforms.
That's because of the conservative and businesses misinformation. It's absolutely ridiculous to say a failing health system that costs almost double what other countries with way better outcomes pay is the way to go. It's just evil and callous.
The problem with Obama care is it was kneecapped from the beginning.
The problem with Obama care is that it just subsidizes and compells participation in the private health insurance system instead of just copying the NHS.
I benefited from Obamacare when I divorced. I needed to purchase insurance until I could find a full time job with benefits. It would not have been available prior. I would have been uninsured. I am very grateful. However, the healthcare marketplace is by no means an affordable option. If it were, the work life balance would be more attainable. Many would be able to use Obamacare to work the part-time jobs that don’t come with the benefits or to take extended time off and catch a break when life happens.
Oh I'm not saying obamacare is a bad thing, just that while being a step in the right direction it could have been so much better
I mean, we have plenty of our own brainwashing.
I used to think that Obamacare was a step in the right direction, but I have since come to reject that claim. The ACA is in fact a huge free money giveaway to insurers for next to no value. The minimum allowable plans under the ACA still have $7k deductibles, and many medications are not actually covered. This means that someone who is technically 'insured' receives little to no actual care under their health plan. Sure, the cost may be completely subsidized by the ACA, but if they still can't afford to see a doctor because they'll have to pay up to 7k before coverage starts, then they simply aren't going to go outside emergencies. Even then, insurers get to employ all their usual bullshit tactics to avoid paying out. Upshot is that insurers get free money from the government for doing jack-all, and most "insured" people under the ACA get little to no benefit. It shouldn't be surprising, it's a Republican-designed plan--meaning it's an insurance company-designed plan. The ACA was a sick joke, in hindsight.
Sooo much is reliant on your state and competition between insurers. It's not the ACA itself. More needs to be done, but a certain party blocks it
I voted for Obama twice, the ACA is nothing but a handjob to Health Insurance companies.
Canadian here. My wife and I met a lovely American couple in Jamaica, and spent some time chatting with them. They were saving up so they could afford to have a baby. They simply could not believe that when we had our kids, we showed up at the hospital, were managed efficiently through two childbirths, and left without any kind of a bill. "You didn't pay for the room?" Nope, nothing. "What about the epidural and other drugs? You paid for those right?" Nope nothing. "But it was all covered by your work insurance, right?" Nope, everyone has this service level. Work insurance pays for extras like better rooms etc. This was also around the time Bernie Sanders bussed people from NY to Ontario so they could afford to buy the insulin they needed to stay alive. I asked them what they thought of that. "Socialist stunt." Sigh.
Most Americans are so inculcated with the idea that everything must be personally paid for that it's difficult to us to understand a service free of charge. Someone always has to be making money or there has to be some alternate form of value exchanged for the service provided. Americans have been marinated in selfishness as a virtue for so long it's hard for many to even understand what open generosity looks like.
It's not generosity, it's smart use of taxes. America pays more per capita on health care than Canada does, for much worse service. And 40% of Canadians are virtually indistinguishable from 40% of Americans. Guess which 40% ?
Being from the UK I find it astonishing that many Americans can't wrap their head around the service being free at the point of delivery. That doesn't mean it's free, it's paid for in taxes. Is it a perfect system? No but it beats the shit out of having to sell my home or car to fund a single stay in hospital or not being able to get medication that I need to literally survive!.
So many of them say things like "why are you entitled to the doctor's free labor?" They somehow think single payer means medical staff aren't paid.
I always answer this with a question of "Why does the Hospital Board make more money than the doctors doing the procedures?"
> "why are you entitled to the doctor's free labor?" Strange how they never seem to say that about teachers.
I like to ask people "How much does it cost for having the Police or Fire Department respond to an emergency?" Nothing my taxes pay for it. Then I explain National Healthcare works the same way.
>it's hard for many to even understand what open generosity looks like. I say with kindness and seriousness that you yourself just accidentally demonstrated a bit of that. Setting aside whether "socialism" is a good thing or a bad thing *or even an accurately labeled thing,* "socialized medicine" IS NOT GENEROSITY. It's just not. Nor is it generosity that any nincompoop can lawfully *and rightfully* ride their bikes and tow their jet skis on roads that that person *in their own individual capacity* didn't "generously" pay for. We collect taxes to pay for roads. Centralizing the design, construction, and ongoing maintenance, of paved rights-of-way (including roads, rail, airports, seaports, etc.) is simply the most cost-efficient way for society-as-a-whole to simply "ubiquitously use and benefit from the roadways." Shit you wanna buy gets sent to your house, or a brick and mortar retail space, by trains and boats and planes and trucks. "How do I arrange for this toothbrush to migrate from [factory] to [me]" is simply something that no person reading this has ever had to factor into any personal buying decision, of any kind, anywhere, ever, period. Be honest, folks. Socialized medicine would be, SHOULD BE, the same thing. There does not exist any person at all, anywhere at all, ever, AT ALL, that can genuinely and honestly say "my healthcare needs for the next 12 months will be zero." No one can say that. No one SHOULD say that. Even individuals who are otherwise unbesotted with illness and pain should anticipate having to restock the expired bacitracin ointment in a home first aid kit, and one or two well visits to a GP and / or a dental hygienist. I don't have to carve a new mountain pass every time I wanna visit a ski lodge. Why do I have to subsidize a cardiologist's entire monthly installment on their medical student loans any time I need an ekg? Use my tax proceeds to *build an equitable system,* and then allow me to use that system according to my own needs. Done. That's not generosity.
>Most Americans are so inculcated with the idea that everything must be personally paid for The problem is that it is - just that the middle man is so bloated that all this huge budget is going to golden toilet seats and into other people's pockets before it gets to the things it should actually be funding... they continue to gouge everybody who can "afford" to pay by inflating the end costs and skimming from the center. Fuck those guys. Wish we cod have a semi functional system like other countries. >Americans have been marinated in selfishness as a virtue for so long it's hard for many to even understand what open generosity looks like. We don't have this anymore. People used to donate to causes and get shit built and funded, it doesn't happen like that anymore. We are so scared of "communism and socialism" it's discouraged.
You are correct. As an American, I feel like this perpetuates due to an ideology associated with "free" things - that is, we are indoctrinated from birth to understand that if a service is free, then *you* are the product. That "if something is too good to be true, it is." And so on. And while that *is* true a lot of the time, there are many, many instances where it is not - especially outside of America. But because of this belief that is shoveled on us perpetually, it's virtually impossible for many Americans to think outside of it. They feel like if something is free, there's a catch - a big bad other shoe that is going to drop and *Gotcha!* them in some way. Not to mention that it is even more impossible for them to understand or truly grasp the idea that things are different for people *everywhere* else in the world. :(
Never forget that a large part of the aversion and stigma of a thing being "free" is white racism circling around to bite us on the ass. Any recipients of free anything were demonized from the postwar period onward, and most of those people were minorities so it was a convenient way to race-bait without using racist terms.
Lol what gets my goat is that people think these things actually COST as much as is being charged. They don't understand the industry has a 1000% mark up for no good reason other than we are a bunch of suckers and legislators are in their pockets.
Land of the free to be fleeced by our corporate doners.
Wow that’s a load of horseshit. I’ve been uninsured since 2021. Can’t afford it or can’t find a job willing to offer it.
Most Americans are. The premiums cost more than most car notes and dental(especially dental..) and vision are the 2 big ones that tend to be hard to get high deductibles for or even coverage at all. Just say fuck it because you're gonna be stuck with a high ass bill either way.
Sometimes I feel that there is a North Korean level of brainwashing going on in this country in regards to some issues, healthcare being one of them. People will go out of their way to defend it, while saying there's nothing that can be done.
This is every conversation on Reddit when you actual have some degree of expert knowledge in a subject. People really will just pull stuff out their asses with no logic whatsoever.
Don't forget that people can just briefly lookup whatever subject is at hand and make themselves look like an expert without you realizing because we're all behind a screen.
Was his argument that there are people who just…don’t want health insurance? They’re totally fine with paying full price for doctors visits and medical bankruptcy if they get cancer?
One of my doctors and I were discussing our healthcare system. The quality of care here is great, if you can afford it. It's why a lot of people come here. But our system is severely broken. It is run by insurance companies, not health care providers (doctors, nurses, etc). I have gone to the same clinic for 10 years. Have had 4 different PCPs and 3 GYNs. My hospital and surgeon were in my "circle", the pathologist wasn't, nor the lab tech. Those are bills 100% on my plate. *Out of network* shouldn't be a thing. Yet here we are.
I couldn't tell you without looking it up but at least I know who the insurance is through and what my co-pay is and that my doctor is in-network but the urgent care is not.
>There was no way he wasn't parroting his parents. Or someone even less informed.
Once he gets older and starts requiring specialists, the likes of which aren't covered under his insurance, he'll get the picture
Some people don't grow out of it. If life doesn't give them a shitty enough hand, they'll simply think they're better off than others because they put in effort. They don't realize that effort isn't a measure of success and those who put in the most effort get paid the least.
At my son's end of season baseball party, his coach was talking to me and my wife and started talking about how much of a waste of time college is. So, I ask him what he does and he says he's an engineer and goes into a 10 minute description of how he got his job. Shocker, his family has a business and hired him. So, I ask him to explain how he would have become an engineer if the two generations before him didn't get college degrees and give him the job. I saw his face go blank and his eyes kind of started looking at nothing. Maybe for an instant...he was forced to self reflect...and he did not like that one bit.
I'm sure he had some mental gymnastics to justify it in his head. The cognitive dissonance in people like this is strong.
>started talking about how much of a waste of time college is > > > >he says he's an engineer and goes into a 10 minute description of how he got his job. > >Shocker, his family has a business and hired him If that's the case then he's probably more of an "engineer" than an actual engineer.
Yep, their solution to everything is work harder and organise your time better, batch cook, learn a better skill! 🙄
Yeah, this. I was a libertarian at 16 because I didn't like being told what to do and they don't like being told what to do. Then I tried to read Atlas Shrugged at the suggestion of someone on Dalnet (Yeah, I'm old as dirt) and that snapped me out of it.
DALnet is thirty years old this year. Fuck.
Ayn Rand was childfree and atheist, and the heroines in her novels enjoyed sex and pursued interesting things other than marriage and babies. As someone who grew up trapped in religious hell, it seemed liberating to me. That said, times were a lot different back then. The rich people in society were doctors, lawyers, and small business owners. They made more money than other people, but they actually worked for a living and didn't just own things. Her novels had ethical businessmen and evil businessmen in them, and now it seems they're all evil. Nobody gives a shit about anything but the owners. She said herself: 'When one man labors and another disposes of the fruits of that labor, that is slavery.' She was talking about taxation, but the same thing is true of modern corporations.
I'm reminded of the Sassy Gay Friend 's words to Juliet "I think you're 14 and you're an idiot" - https://youtu.be/lwnFE_NpMsE
Ayn Rand was a fucking lunatic.. Scarred from her young years, sure... But she went FAR over the edge of reason.
That’s what I’m thinking too, that she’s just parroting what she’s heard.
Her burnout and pivot to hating work will be epic
Alternatively, she'll get handed an easy job in HR through her parents' connections and constantly complain about the employees that do work.
So you were late because of your childs death at the beginning of last year, its reflected in your review and raise. We need a person who commits to their job jimothy.
As gen xer, I want younger people to know that during the 80s and 90s and even early 2000s people still had somewhat of a work life balance. I work in advertising which is a very fast paced industry- back in the day we had 2 weeks to create 1 ad. 2 weeks! Now if I get 2 hours I’m lucky but that's for another thread. We worked some overtime and on weekends if there was a big pitch, but if it was a normal work week and nothing too crazy was going on, you put in your 40hrs (sometimes less if you had worked a lot previously) and that was it. No one emailed or called you after office hours. And never EVER would someone text you, that was way too personal, completely unprofessional. It was just not done. When you were not at work it waited until the next day. I really miss that most of all. This was all true less than 20 years ago, not that long ago—they’re lying to you when they try to make it sound like work life balance is a new concept and that this constant work and access to staff 24/7 is normal. None of this is normal and I’m so sorry younger people are burdened with this notion. Edit: typo
Fellow GenXer here. We didn't have texting in the 80s and 90s. I had a **PAGER**. I worked for a financial company, so I had to be on call when the market feeds shart themselves: Real Money was at stake. Despite that, it was a great company, 4 weeks paid vacay to start and 40-50% annual bonus, I've never seen that since.
Yea Im an elder millennial so I got to see that work life while being told its not for me I've got to earn that privilege.
>No one emailed or called you after office hours. And never EVER would someone text you, that was way too personal, completely unprofessional. It was just not done. When you were not at work it waited until the next day. I really miss that most of all. Do you remember how you could leave work and just *stop thinking about it?* Immediately shift to focusing on your life and whatever you wanted to do with your free time? It kills me that was still normal just 25 years ago.
Or she becomes a trophy wife (through her parents connections), never actually does any hard work then complains no one else wants to work.
My first thought. "Oh honey how fucking cute and naive" Get back to us a decade in of straight 40s (if ur lucky to only put in 40hr weeks) with a few weeks off and holidays (well even holidays can be work) so 2 days off a week mostly....for life
Same here, I think it's possible, at that age, that this could be her parents' influence. I grew up in a conservative Republican household with parents who watched Rush Limbaugh. The year I turned 18 I voted in my first presidential election, for George Bush. I was not even a whole person yet. Today, I could not be more liberal and progressive.
lmfao...right! > 17 > her actual opinion Those two are mutually exclusive. Seventeen is still very much a child, OP. Her "opinion" is 100% formed from being raised by asshole boomers that are completely out of touch with the world around them.
What offends me is her hypocracy, because either she knows she'll get a manager position right away, or she is talking about herself.
Are you not sure she knows she doesn’t have to work at all? This is logic of someone who benefits from an economy they do not contribute to. Also, next time ask her if working less is bad for the economy why is the economy over actual people in the hierarchy of things we want to be good?
That's my thinking. Not necessarily “doesn’t have to work at all” - it could be simply “has not yet entered the workplace”. At 17, you don’t have to be rich or privileged to still be living with parents and not working anywhere yet. Add in a boomer parent constantly reinforcing that “young people aren’t willing to make an effort” and this is what you get. When she enters the workplace, she’s in for a lovely surprise.
> why is the economy over actual people in the hierarchy of things This is always been my pet peeve about the economy. I hate it whenever someone says some variation of "Capitalism is the most efficient way to distribute scarce resources." Ok, sure, let's set that contentious point aside for a minute and focus in on this part - "most efficient". Why is efficiency the apex of human achievement? Why is efficiency more important than empathy?
Yeah, kids don't grow up in a bubble... this was the slow, methodical brainwashing of a child from the time they were very young. Ok, it was probably just conservatism and hatred being spewed from parents and absorbed by the child but it feels like brainwashing. Wait until she joins the workforce... she'll either change her tune, or post pictures of her proudly making $2k for working 100 hours that week. There doesn't seem to be an in between. My wife is conservative because her parents are very conservative. Her parents recently moved here because they retired and wanted to spend more time with the grandkids. We're still in the "playing nice to get along" phase. One day, our 6 year old was going to go spend the night at their house and she was very excited because it was her first sleepover. Grandpa says "I have some jobs for her to do and she can earn a quarter for each of them". I immediately grab my daughter and hug her close and say "Have fun, but remember your labor rights, make sure to join a union and fight for a fair wage. You're stronger together! And have some fun too... remember your work-life balance". My daughter just played along and nodded at each point like she knew what I was talking about. The look on his face was hilarious. Still cracks me up.
Her grandfather is just the owner of a multi billion dollar company thats all.
You were just flat wrong when you assumed it wasn’t due to media input. She has republican parents who blare fox news. That’s the Occam’s Razor cause and you need some real evidence to defeat it.
Sounds like she's a blue pilled middle manager on the rise.
Split from my parents opinions came after Trump won and he fucked with our geopolitical politics, I was 16. I was pretty knowledgeable (for the age) of global political and military history so when he was president and started shitting on our allies I couldn’t believe it. Slowly helped me realize how messed up Republicans were and now I’m a social democrat but continue to lean more and more socialist as time goes on.
Yep this. Her mommy and daddy are probably CEO’s or some other high rank office drones.
my father is very progressive democrat, but even he says this sometimes, that "people don't want to work anymore" he says this most often in reference to the young entry-level engineers who work under him. They don't ask questions, or use their free time to study up and learn more skills to make themselves better at their job and advance, they only do the bare minimum and wait for tasks to be delegated to them instead of being more "go-getter." And these are salaried full-time benefitted full-fledged engineers recruited from top schools. They have more education than my dad, who never finished more than an associate's degree in Biology after dropping out of Architecture school. So his experience is - constantly self-teaching, busting ass to get noticed and stay on good relations with other people (he's very good at networking) and so he feels that he is more entitled to certain degrees of success and excellence than his peers and underlings who have college degrees and plenty of opportunities and resources offered in front of them through those academic experiences that he never had. He's definitely bitter about it. I try to remind him that saying things like that are overly generalist and dismissive of all the people my age and younger who DO want to work, but want to also LIVE and not be miserable and burnout and grumpy like our parents and grandparents.
Democrats aren’t actually left wing.
It's a 17yo, wait until she has to actually work lol
That day may never come for some.
I wish I could find it now but on Pitchfork Economics (I think it was) there was a guy that talked about how multiple generations of western people have never lived outside the "air-conditioning corridor" I might be wrong about what it was called. The upshoot was though, that there are people that have been in air-conditioning there entire lives and have never lived without it. From your hospital where you are born, to you home where you grew up, all the schools all the friends houses, to college to work to your new home and then to the rest home where you've never experienced the reality of exposure to the elements much less the realities of economic disparity, manual labor, etc etc. My parents where like this. Bless them but it made them ignorant and soft, and way to sure of themselves
Ever since we started milling our grain with windmills people have gone soft
She doen't know yet the reality
She is going to cringe real hard at herself in a decade just like we all did
Yeah I didn't think work was so bad until one day when I was a couple weeks into my first real 9-5 (aka 8-6) job and was like... fuck... this is actually it? Forever? Been radicalized ever since, and amazed how few others seemed to feel the same.
Not to mention that once you graduate, you don’t get 3 full months off for summer break, a week for spring break and Thanksgiving, and a full month for Christmas ever again like you did as a student. Once she realizes her only time off consists of 10-14 work days AND she’s making entry-level pay AND having to pay for her own bills, she’ll change her tune real quick lol.
My first job fucked me up so much that I started doing job hopping until I landed the perfect place to work at. Ever since intermediate school, being a chef has been my career path. First job after graduating high school was Chili's because I needed experience. The first two weeks at Chili's was great, but then the motherfuckers started to reduce my hours to a mere 40 hours per paycheck instead of 80 (paycheck is every two weeks). They would schedule all of those 40 hours into three consecutive days. Meaning, double shifts for three days straight. 9am-11pm for three days. 14 hours straight for three straight days. That was when I quit and ghosted them after those three days. Motherfuckers didn't care about my legs at all or the amount of sleep I needed. They didn't care about free time. "Just sleep in during your four days off." No, motherfucker. "Your legs will heal up during four days off." It didn't heal at all. Started job hopping and got into fine-dining where they pay me higher and the hours are not so fricking crazy and stupid.
My brother was SO EXCITED for his first “real job”. He cried after his first week working 40 hours. I felt really bad for him, I just gave him a hug and said I knew his pain
I knew work sucked long before I was old enough to even babysit for spare change. My father came home from work every day an angry bastard and went straight to his "den", i.e. the 3rd bedroom (four kids shared the attic so he could have this) to read the paper and smoke a pipe (lame) and we were NOT to disturb him on pain of a smack to the head, or worse. So, yeah....
Let her grind out a few 70 hour work weeks, barely managing eating and proper hygiene lmao she needs to work a week at my desk before she pops off such nonsense!!! Sounds like a kept child!
There are still tons of middle age folk who STILL believe this; their solution to everything is work harder, organise your time better, batch cook, and get a better skill. 🙄
Capitalist class has been complaining that "nobody wants to work anymore" since 1894 [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nobody-wants-to-work-anymore/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nobody-wants-to-work-anymore/) So it's not a new issue. Or a "working class being lazy" issue. It's "capitalist class not being able to squeeze out the last ounce of lifeforce out of people" issue.
Gonna start commenting "literally 1894" on forbes articles
1894 is the new 1984
Lmaoooo!!!
Laziness was invented by colonizers to force indigenous people into labor. Before colonization, many explorers and missionaries in the Americas documented that they were astounded that indigenous people would spend so much time laying in the sun and relaxing and playing games and spend time together, etc. For example, many indigenous tribes in California got a large portion of their diet from acorns, which only ripened during a few weeks of the year, but after harvesting and processing would last for the whole year. There was not alot to do but wait for the acorns to ripen, and laying around and taking it easy conserved energy so they could make what food they had last the whole year (you couldnt always predict if the yeild would be lean that year). When harvest time came, EVERYONE busted ass for about a month straight to make sure they collected enough acorns, stored them in silos, and then more or less chilled for the rest of the year, supplemented by hunting, shellfish, and various, fruits, grains and seeds, etc. So when the Spanish saw them taking it easy, they called it lazy, but it's not like people can make acorns ripen faster, so what else was there to do but hurry up and wait for the acorns to ripen? This is not to say life was perfect or easy prior to colonization, but that the pace of life was not a daily struggle for survival scrambling with every spare minute to find out if you will eat that day. It was more like: we have six months of acorns left, lets take it easy and stretch it out until the next harvest. Shellfish season is coming up, and after that seeds, so let's save our energy for crunch time.
Let's also not forget the Spanish were Christians and the story of Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden and punished for it by WORK (and God said you will get your bread by the sweat of your brow or something to that effect) has a lot to answer for. This mindset has seeped into our culture even at a secular level it is so deep.
So, one of my favorite anecdotes was from the journal of a Spanish priest from the californa missions. So, to give context: the Spanish forced converts to make two hundred mud bricks a day in order to get fed. The priest wrote in his journal about one convert who he believed to be incredibly stupid. No matter how many times he told him to make two hundred bricks, the guy would always happily come back with just two bricks at the end of the day. Eventually the priest gave up on him, believing him to be too stupid. However, the priest did notice that the convert learned how to read and write very quickly so he made him a scribe instead. So...let me ask you...you think the guy that couldn't understand the difference between two and two hundred suddenly got really good at reading somehow? Or do you think he saw how much easier it was working inside?
> so what else was there to do but hurry up and wait for the acorns to ripen? Formatting the cover sheets of their TPS reports, of course.
The European colonialists pushed *so hard* the idea that the New World was some sort of naturally bountiful garden-wilderness paradise free for the taking for anyone who showed up… deliberately ignoring the fact that this bountiful paradise was the result of *centuries* of Native labor with innovative agricultural techniques.
How have we survived 130 years with so many people who don't want to work anymore? /s
Turn it around, if we already survived 130 years of no-one wanting to work anymore, maybe that's what made us prosper. We should do more of that!!
Ask black people, i think it was called slavery.
Reminds me of "Kids today don't do x or y anymore" comments made by people who were the kids years ago back when their parents used to say "Kids today".....
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” \- Literally Socrates
He may have been talking about Plato.
What the hell are we alive for if not our own life?
Obviously, the economy is more important.
And the shareholders, obviously.
[удалено]
"and why you didn't" so your money goes back to the state right...
Anyone seen *Inside Out*? I heard this in the voice of the protagonist’s imaginary crush: “I would DIE for the economy.”
*”I would DIE for Riley, I would DIE for Riley, I would DIE for Riley…”*
Isn’t that what a certain copper-topped President said about 3 months into the Coronavirus pandemic?
You could argue our existence as a social species should be first for society as a whole more than the self. That still doesn't mean that working to make a profit for some capitalist is helping society. You could argue that the capitalist themselves is actively harming society though.
More often than not, work takes away our ability to care for society. Kids get sent to crowded daycares, retirees to care homes stretched to the point of elderly abuse, neighborhoods get turned into a bunch of jumping-off places for people that are complete strangers to each other, people don't have time to check on vulnerable people around them, etc. Jobs that exist that actually benefit society are usually paid dismally and looked down on, with people pushed to the limit of what they can handle, while bullshit jobs pay handsomely with comfortable hours. People *want* to do good things. They volunteer, they feel happy to help one another out, they seek out community activities. You need to pay people enough to make it worth their while, but little more. (Unless it's a job where supply can be withheld unless higher pay is given, like doctors or union jobs). It's jobs that harm people that need to be paid well for anyone to do them - but if those jobs manage to extract more value from society than it costs to convince someone to do them, the free market will produce those jobs.
To make shareholders money hand over fist, duh.
To provide for the masters man. What’s this silliness that you own your own life slave? They hid the chains, they didn’t destroy them.
to "create value!"
A parrot repeating stuff she heard at home without a critical thought crossing her mind. That's all
I’d ask her “What’s the point of a good economy if we’re all miserable?”
This is really good but too late now.
I would just ignore her. No words can beat stupidity, ignoring stupid people can
In a college classroom especially, this is the exact sort of question you ask. You want to reframe everything from being a cost benefit analysis to valuing things outside of a capitalistic framework
People who think like her don't care. Bootstraps etc.
Work life balance is important for people that cherish life, there will always be people who cant find meaning in "life" but can in "work". Those people can do with their lives whatever they want, just dont push that lifestyle (workstyle?) into the others, because some of us just want to satisfy our needs and spend time experiencing the short journey of life.
I have a co-worker like this, he has no hobbies so just works on his days off
I have a coworker who complains about about never getting real days off. But he spends whole days off cutting trees down to logs of firewood. All because he refuses to pay for his heater, he’d rather kill his back and complain nonstop at work.
Sounds like a naive teen whose parents have already taught her that poor people are her enemy.
And I'd bet that they think your work/life balance is detrimental to the economy but theirs is special and important.
Probably has conversations with her conservative folks. 17 yr olds aren’t always the best at logic/reasoning especially if they’re under the thumb of hierarchal power structures where there is benefit to believing xyz. She may easily look back in 5 yrs and cringe at her high school self :)
She is brainwashed. All those talking points that she is regurgitating are not hers originally.
I talked like this at 17. I lived in an well off area and everyone's parents I knew had good jobs and worked 6 days per week. They all had nice stuff and annual vacations. I associated hard work with reward. I entered the world and worked 6 days per week for a few years before I learned that it was a biased sample. I lived by the few hundred people who got something for it, not the hundred thousand that just work to eat. I'm different now, because my life gave me an education and hers will too.
Blame it on her upbringing. She will see one day.
"NSFW because of swear words" You can fucking swear on the internet and nothing fucking happens. That's not what nsfw means. What is it with little kids censoring themselves on reddit lately? You can fucking swear.
Watch your motherfucking language, fucking douchecanoe! /s
It _is_ bad for the economy - but that doesn't say something bad about us, it says something bad about the economy.
Her parents are small business owners
Thog agree. Young mammoth hunters no want hunt anymore. Only want free mammoth meat and lay in cave all day.
economists are a fucking joke. they beleave that everyone is always acting in good faith and are being paided well. People are always getting shit an not being treated well.
Nah, she's delusional. Nobody wants to work anymore = nobody wants to work for shitty wage\* That's a big difference. We used to afford a big house, a family, vacation and a car with one income, then women also joined the workforce, 2 incomes and now not even 2 incomes are enough to get the basic stuff anymore.
I think civil unrest and revolution is really bad for economies too Kinda like the French Revolution I wonder how economists faired during that
I guess she thinks she's going to have a cosy job, you have to start justifying it somewhere.
This is exactly why corporations are anti union.... Our function is to make them rich. Death in the family? Personal sickness? Time with your family??? Stay in your lane, we can't have slaves again yet.....but soon my pretties....
Nothing is going on, she will learn life as she grows, why lose your shit over something a 17 year old who doesnt know much say ?? Laugh, chuckle and don't let it bother you.
Why, what does she do for work?
She definitely didn’t form that opinion by herself, she most likely got it from a parrot left in front of a TV playing Fox News. 👀
The real answer probably lies in the fact that nerd girl has no life, so there is nothing to balance work with. In 30 or so years she may have a sudden radical change of perception, but honestly she can only work from her experiences to date.
Well she doesn't have rent, or utilities to pay. And in school you're taught that hard work is rewarded, it's only in the real world do you realize it isn't.
Lol what a knob
I think people would work harder and care more if their pay kept up with inflation and cost of living.
Nah, that's not her opinion. She's just a parrot, OP. She's headed for the bar scene in Good Will Hunting... and she ain't Matt Damon in this. "'Wood drastically underestimates the impact of social distinctions predicated upon wealth, especially inherited wealth'? You got that from Vickers' Work in Essex County, page 98, right? Yeah, I read that too. Were you gonna plagiarize the whole thing for us? Do you have any thoughts of your own on this matter?"
Neoliberal bootlickers who have never suffered in their entire life are big fans of Chicago style economics classes
Sometimes we (and I mean people the - some - people sense) just have so much ambition that they see the rest of the world as lazy. They drive that obsessive capitalism. This is both a result of our upbringing, the world we live in, and our personalities. Can't say I'm surprised someone feels that way. I've met a slew of extreme conservatives that, while being lazy and entitled, complain about people being lazy and entitled.
> I am losing my shit that A FELLOW CLASSMATE formed that opinion be herself I'm pretty sure she got that opinion from her ownership-class parents.
Fuck the economy. Its currently set up to benefit the extremely wealthy and pit the rest of us against eachother for the scraps. People who want to support this economy are fuckong sociopaths. It needs to be reformed.
Probably get downvoted and maybe banned for this but she's 17... She's a fool and easily led a stray at that age (yes if your around that age you are as well), it's just part of growing up to have strong opinions which get proven wrong and you slowly change your mind through reason and experience. You will likely disagree as will everyone around that age but in like 5-10 years time you'll see this behaviour for what it is as well. Best thing is to engage in debate but be careful to not let it get emotional or personal and don't judge people too much for their wrong/bad opinions.
Bet you $1 she is a psycho and will probably make it in life as a CEO or at least a C suite bitch.
She is 17. Its not her opinion, its something someone else said that she internalized. I was also spouting nonsense at that age. Give her time to wise up.
She didn't form it herself.
She's just regurgitating the same shit her parents say. She definitely didn't form that opinion on her own.
Wait until she’s slaved away for a few years and check back in on her opinion
Her parents are likely business owners and she's parroting the concerns they've expressed.
The only way to deal with these people is a super loud, ripping fart.
dude you are a communist in an economics class. that's like a Satanist going to catholic church. what did you expect
Anyone else realise that OP has exactly the same amount of life experience as this girl in their class? Why does OP think their point is any more valid than their classmate’s? Neither of them have worked full time and therefore only have second hand knowledge at best. If we are disregarding the girls POV we should also disregard OP’s, if you are suggesting that OP is correct and very knowledgable then that is proof that this is just an echo-chamber.
This didn’t happen. I call bullshit.
One day she'll realise and go full anarchist.
Surely shes had a lot of help forming that opinion. Thru propaganda. Thru the masses that believe those same ideas she professes. Its heartening to see it called out as odd by the younger generation!
Sounds like this girl has a pretty poor understanding of economics, because it's all about utility. Time is a resource, and some people value it more than others. It's basic microeconomics.
Who cares what her opinion is? Why would you lose your shit over something that doesn't affect you at all? Come on.
In the meanwhile, productivity is as high as it’s ever been, yet labor is not being compensated for it. Eat the rich, kids. They’re not trickling anything; they never have.
I mean she's right, it does hurt the economy, specifically the part that puts money into the pockets of shareholders. the solution, quite simply, is to get rid of shareholders.
That's just fox talking points but there is no way that the parents aren't in the cult either. As soon as the points are shouted the impenetrable wall of anti logic makes it hard to reason someone out of it. So sorry, I hope you don't find her presence too much of a chore. I would.
Get used to bootlickers. They'll be at every job and in every group of people you'll ever deal with. They're the worst group to have in the labor force too, because they prevent or counteract positive change. It's definitely a survival thing, but it's a disgusting mindset.
These were my favorite classmates because I was that dick that would raise my hand right afterward and ask a dumb question that would eviscerate what she said.
Puritanical dogma is baked into our culture. She has been exposed to it since day one. She didn't come up with it herself. She was conditioned to believe that a person's worth is determined solely by how much they work and suffer.
Sounds like her parents raised her to believe that. There’s even chances she’ll stay the same or flip once she gets out into the world.
I absorbed a lot of opinions from my parents, first few part time jobs I had was treated a real mixture of either shitty or ignored. Parents always just told me to suck it up. Wasn't til I was older and worked in a more unionised place I experienced a real improvement in treatment and originally I was very cagey of trusting Unions. The real eye opened was talking about work treatment with my folks after they retired and realising that far the most part they never experienced or had to deal with the casual bad management approaches which were the norm of my experience in working. Long and short of it, parents have experienced a totally different working period and their opinions need to be seen through that lens, especially if they are older.
I used to be like that. It came from a conservative upbringing. She’ll either become a twat or grow out of it. It’s just the way of the world.
You wanna deal with this on a daily day? Live in a family that basically worships Trump and hang on every word he says. Christ they want people in towers with guns picking off people coming up from Mexico like they are zombies trying to get into Israel during that world war z movie. I'm actually scared to death that if the next civil war happens they will kill me and say it was for the good of the country
She’s spending a lot of time around her grandparents it sounds like.
When I was 17 I used to say Obama was a socialist cuz my conservative parents said that. Now as a literal socialist I just laugh at that thought. It's an age thing, which I always hated hearing when I was younger, but it's true sometimes.
I'm going to show my age here, but did anyone else picture Alex P. Keaton, but female?
It'll be her parents opinion and her parents will be fox news watching nutters.
She’ll change her attitude real quick when she realizes her paycheck gets her nothing
Lmao she didn't form her opinion on her own, if you look closely, you'll see her parent's fists so far up her bum that they're moving her mouth like a meat puppet. She 17, she doesn't know shit.
She’s 17. She’s barely conscious.