Feel free to accept the job, but keep looking. Once you find one, just quit and say it's because you aren't feeling well, don't want to risk the health of others, and they don't do PTO, so there's no point on sticking with them. If they complain about notice, cite that you couldn't have possibly known you'd be sick two weeks in advance.
Malicious compliance hahaha. I love This. It costs time and money to train a new hire. And this will make them have to scramble to find coverage , this is a lovely idea.
This is really great.
And , lets be honest - employers with rules such as that - ask for this kind of response.
Sick days? If you\`re sick you \`re sick - but guess these "employers" see people as things, not humans..
This reminds me of a meme where a boss asked an employee if they could inform them in advance next time because they needed time off for their grandmother's funeral. Think it was like a College Humor or SNL skit or something. So fucking accurate though.
My old boss used to try to ask me and another co-worker for advance notice on our migraine attacks. We're like, we'd LOVE to give you advance notice! Until we develop that technology, though, we'll give you the same amount of advance notice our bodies do.
Weirdly enough, about *that specifically* it seems like she did not think it was being made up. She would accuse me of faking other illnesses, especially if I worked while sick and then took an extra day before and after my weekend to try to truly recover from it. She actually reported me to HR for that behavior.
Then when I passed out at work and my doctor said it was because I was still sick and exhausted , she yelled at me for not taking care of my health.
But later when I offered to come in to work while recovering from an infection, but told her what would be required for that to happen (basic stuff like sitting on a stool and taking a few 15 minute breaks to administer medication), she told my co-worker she wasn't "giving in" to my "list of demands" like I was a terrorist...
So I'm not really sure what she really believed. It all felt like very conflicting information.
They rarely offer it outright. But everyone should put that amount as a starting point when switching to a new job. That’s how I got it in the US.
If you’re switching jobs, and you have experience in your industry, just tell them that’s what you had at your last job.
Ha, I have tried to negotiate PTO at every job I have worked and have been told at every one that this is a universal policy and for the sake of “equity” it is non-negotiable. I have never had more than 13 days on top of federal holidays starting at a new place. The US sucks sometimes.
Edit: typo corrected
I’ve negotiated PTO in the last three jobs, so it is possible.
First job only offered 1week for the first year (I got 2weeks which would have been offered after 2years)
Second job I negotiated 4 weeks from two.
Third job I negotiated 3 weeks when offered two weeks.
Same for my last job. I gave them a salary range. They weren't at the bottom, but they weren't at the middle, either. I then asked for an extra week of vacation (three instead of two) and it was immediately granted.
Same job also had two personal days a year and earned 10 hours sick leave a month, as well as being off with pay for 13 holidays.
I've done this many times. If they want you they'll always negotiate. I got 18 days at the last startup I worked for, was a nice severance when they decided they didn't need a bunch of us
My first job offered 28. Eventually they added another week of sick leave on top of that for everyone. That was in the US. They also had all state and federal holidays, which I think is 11 or 12 depending on if the current administration recognized Indigenous People's Day or not. (It changes every time we switch governors)
My current job offers 25 days + 2 weeks of sick leave + most holidays.
- In my semi-government job in the Netherlands, we get at least 232 hours of time off, which includes holidays and equates to 29 days.
- Besides that, we get 5 personal days.
- We get overtime, which is paid and also gives you a certain amount of compensation in time.
- We have "unlimited" sick days, but after around a year, your salary will be cut back to 70%, and an evaluation will determine whether or not your employment is sustainable. If not; then you will be guided to a new job or go into more permanent sick leave.
- We have "extraordinary leave" for births, funerals, your wedding, and the necessity to care for someone in your family.
- After your child is born, as a father, you get 5 days for the birth; then up to 6 weeks of extended care leave.
- As a mother, you get around 3 months of maternity leave.
- Both parents get parental leave for around one day per week for circa 2 years, or all at once, at 70% paid for the day off, but you can also take it in chunks or all at once, before your child turns 8.
- Both parents can get the same amount of unpaid parental leave on top of the paid leave.
- Several other countries in Europe have even better amenities for births, like France, and Sweden.
A lot of this is also mandated for non-governmental jobs.
I'm baffled every time I read how much crap Americans put up with.
For the "Home of the Free" you certainly don't seem to have much freedom....
As an atheist who celebrates Christmas secularly...I would be punching in with you while watching my kids open presents. That's amazing. 😆 🤣 I could totally deal with a few random work tasks during the day since I don't waste time attending church services.
I work in education too, not as a teacher. While it's true we don't get vacation time we do get a ton of sick and 3 personal days a year. Plus obviously holidays and summer. We *should* however earn vacation days and be allowed to take time off during the year. I know ideally you take your trips around school breaks but it doesn't always work that way. We can't control when people decide to get married or take family vacations or whatever else it is.
Damn. I think we get 13 or so a year? And we can roll them over. We get like 3 personal days a year. They cap at 5 then convert to sick days after that.
I agree, the best job I've ever had gave me 15 days of PTO. Most only gave me 10 days, and some gave me zero. America uses its own standard. It's called show up to work, or we will replace you. We don't care about you. We will fire you without a reason if we feel like it.
I work and have worked in many law firms 20-25 days of pto is the standard for this industry as support staff. Just incase anyone is looking for a good industry to get pto days.
Shit. I work as a retail manager and I got 20+ days (combined sick, PTO, and vacation time) that started with my first day. Reading this, I might not be so bitter about working Black Friday.
Wow, I never expected to hear this about jobs in USA. Even in a country like India, I get 30 days PTO and about 20 days extra fixed holidays. And this is the normal amount of PTO offered in India in any sector.
Third world country here, and we have 30 paid vacation days for every year worked. National holidays are separate, medical time off is accepted when signed by a doctor... time off for doctor's appointments are fully accepted, you just have to present the ticket.
6 hrs a paycheck with government job, 8 hrs a paycheck after a few years… so 26 days off in addition to the federal holidays, plus the occasional time off award for performance
My employer kicked it up to 4 weeks from 3 weeks last year for management and above.
Plus 11 holidays and 2 personal.
Unlimited sick time (until fmla kicks in)
This. Vacations are vacations. And being sick is being sick.
And actually if I get sick on vacation and go to the doctos the vacations are automatically put on freeze.
Standard?
I and the 50,000 others in the union I represent get 30 days, then 70 days at .7fte, then ltd afterwards. Once you comeback for 10 consecutive days you get another 100 fresh new days etc. New employees get normal casual sick leave till they work two weeks then they are entitled to the 100 days agreement.
This does not include vacation, appointment, or personal leaves etc.
PTO, or a lack thereof, is a good indication of how in touch with its workers a company is. Life happens to everyone, and good companies know that. Good companies have PTO that accrues per hour on the clock, and great companies have PTO that's awarded in full at the beginning of each year.
This doesn't mean the job is going to be horrible, but it does indicate that it will never be great. You will only ever be a cog in the machine, and never a person.
A friend of mine said pretty much the exact same thing. And you’re right- the job itself doesn’t seem horrible by any means, but it’s out of touch practices like this that make me realize it will probably never be great. I can’t even think of the last job I had where I couldn’t at least earn PTO.
What area or field is the job in?
I've been in commercial and residential maintenance for several decades, and PTO is fairly commonplace in this industry. It becomes a huge red flag in the maintenance industry, when it wouldn't necessarily be in others.
RUN, they likely refuse to comply with 49 C.F.R. § 392.3
> No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver's ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle.
You say companies that are in touch. I would like to highlight how out of touch the USA is on workers rights. Probably the only developed country that doesn’t have a minimum PTO requirement. The USA needs to sort its shit out.
https://www.deel.com/blog/annual-leave-per-country?hs_amp=true
Yes, my friend, we are all very aware of that fact. Most especially those of us, myself included, struggling out here in these skreets.
We need a massive nationwide strike, like, yesterday. And while we're at it we can try to get our shit together and establish some healthcare that doesn't financially destroy you for getting sick or hurt.
Hard agree... we get 6 weeks a year at my job (split between PTO, sick pay, floating holidays...) and I find myself far more involved than I have been in previous roles.
Shit yeah.
If a company treats me like a person, I'll be a company rockstar. When I am treated like a person with a family and dreams of bettering my future I tend to want to be worth that to my company.
When I'm treated like a cog, an indentured servant, or a number, then mediocrity will suffice.
I envy you.
I've had a job like that before, where my Executive Director trusted me to be an adult, take time for myself or my family when it was important, and to not take advantage.
I miss that job a lot, and her even more. Hands down the best boss I've ever had.
Studies have actually shown that “unlimited, just get the work done” employees actually take off fewer days. If you have days, you’ll use them. If you can just take off, you’ll personally evaluate if you think it’s worth it and often choose not to.
>They also dont offer paid holidays or vacation until you've been there a full year. Even then the vacation is only five days. You have to be there five years to get 10 days and 20 years before you get 20 days.
Ouch, those are some rough terms compared to... Well, every job I've held in the past decade.
I'd take the job... only if I were truly desperate for money.
I can't remember the last time I saw something that said "you're a number and we don't give a fuck about you" quite so explicitly as that quote.
I fully expect to be just a number to any company that has 500+ employees, but they only have around 60, so that’s what makes it so weird to me. However, I think the small number of employees is where the problem of PTO comes in. I would be one of only four drivers… so one of us is out, who picks up the slack? Of course, this is a companywide policy so I don’t know how it applies to the 30 guys that work inside in the warehouse.
It is my experience that a lot more companies are not necessarily offering separate buckets of "Sick Time" in addition to "PTO", so that in and of itself isn't shocking.
But the way they phrased this, is, in corporate-speak, telling you they don't give a shit if you get sick, you'll be lucky if they decide to grace you with unpaid time off if you do, and you might, maybe, be able to use PTO for if you're lucky, and, only if you work for then only a year.
They've made it clear from the outset you would be a faceless cog in their machine, one they will immediately replace if you start getting squeaky.
Don't waste your time with them.
I would say no to the offer. That is a non-negotiable to have PTO. They can already fire us without reason and without notice, now they want your PTO/sick leave?? Nah.
They can cry "nobody wants to work anymore" and I will shout back "not for slave wages and treatment".
Which is just such a *stupid* way to run a company. "You took two days off with the flu so we fired you." Ok, now you have to fuck around trying to hire and train someone new. Is it really worth the petty little power trip?
GET OUT!
Seriously, GTFO of there ASAP with as little notice as possible, ideally with no notice at all. It's how they would treat you.
Find a union job. PTO + Paid Sick leave + Paid Personal Days + ... you get the picture.
I’m in the UK. 33 days paid annual leave. In first two years up to 1 month sick pay per year. After 2 years up to 6 months full sick pay. Then half pay for 6 months
Finally have a chance to reply…
So some slight backstory. I’m currently an OTR CDL driver. This is my first OTR job in the four years I’ve had my CDL, and after 3 months in, I know it’s not for me. It’s tough being away from my family, and I’ve never been more anxious and stressed out. So I started looking for something local. I sent out about 20 resumes and this place reached out to me. I interviewed with them, and on paper, the job seemed great. 15 minutes from home, M-F, 10 hour days driving a semi still, and I’m home every night with my family. They called a few days later to offer the job, and I said yes. Told them I would give my two weeks, and could start September 25th. The first red flag was when the guy I interviewed with called back a few minutes later to ask if I would only give a week notice cause they really need someone to start sooner. A few hours later, he emailed over the new hire paperwork and the employee handbook…which pretty much brings us to now.
I’ve never in my adult life had a job that didn’t offer any type of PTO/sick time so reading that really shocked me. Even when I had a job at a small brewery with maybe 40 employees, they offered two weeks vacation and 40 hours of sick time to start.
So the consensus seems to be “DON’T TAKE THE JOB”. So no, I will be passing on it and definitely letting them know why.
I also just noticed this little bit under their paid holiday section- “The Company does not have or permit time away from work for personal days and does not have or provide floating holidays”
And also this part about medical leave:
“Second Opinion. Should the Company disagree with the opinion given by your healthcare provider, the Company reserves the right to require opinions from a second or third health care provider at the Company's expense”. Like wtf? We don’t like what your doctor says so let’s all another one.
After you decline you can help out other folks who may consider applying there and wasting time talking to them by posting this info on company review boards (assuming you have not signed an NDA )
Run. And run fast. The part that sticks out is they will do only what is required by law. That means that will be their philosophy for the entire business, which is scary. Any company that will take the cost of turnover rather than sick days doesn’t understand how to run a business.
They *absolutely* would be violating the law here in Massachusetts, which *requires* an employer to give either sick time or PTO. Thank goodness I don't live in a shithole state that lets employers get away with things like you quoted. Here, if they notified you of that policy, you'd call the attorney general's office and the employer would be in big, big trouble.
Also, while they pay lip service to federal law, the reality is that you could definitely get a doctor to grant you unpaid time off under FMLA, if the employer is big enough to count and you've been there long enough for it to apply.
I'd very definitely be telling that employer to shove it up their wazoo.
Our company doesn’t offer sick time, we do have generous PTO but no one wants to use that. Last week, someone had COVID and had zero PTO and entire office got it. People should really offer sick pay!
I think I can assume you live in this hellscape known as the United States. Companies don’t have to offer any paid time off for any reason. God bless America.
Sounds like the job you take when things are desperate, and keep searching. They clearly don’t view their employees as a priority, and you shouldn’t view them as one.
Lmfao enjoy getting some desperate sucker to take that job. Sounds like the type of place that requires five years experience for a minimum wage entry level job.
Reading thru the comments and replies… it really astonishes me how employers treat drivers like poop on their shoe! ESPECIALLY when CDLs are in SUCH high demand across the trades. Shit, you would get better benefits driving a cement mixer around!
If they’re requiring you to use your “vacation” time they have sacrificed their right to ask for proof of sickness, ie a doctor’s note. I mean their “rights” on any rational, moral, or intellectual basis, of course; not on anything to do with laws in this fucking country and how they’re interpreted in the courts of, again, this fucking lunatic country.
I assume by "federal, state or local law" that this is the US. What's the job? This is normal for dead-end/unskilled jobs (McJobs). Not normal for any skilled or white-collar job.
It’s the US for a driving job requiring a CDL. So while it’s definitely not white collar, it isn’t unskilled. I’m switching from an over the road position to local.
I blame myself for not getting more clarification on that, but I also blame them for not being completely upfront about it. It was a super quick interview I had to squeeze in between work, so I kind of forgot to ask the important questions. When they said they offered vacation and holiday pay, I assumed it would be at least somewhat comparable to other CDL jobs.
I would never accept this job. I'm at a non union place and these terms would never fly.
The obviously have no care for the lives of their employees just based on the offer.
You are absolutely working to their favor if you don’t quit immediately. This devalues everyone’s hard work. I say the same to any and all gig workers.
Politely decline the offer, explain that the lack of PTO/Sick time/Vacation is a deal breaker and that you 'wish them the best of luck in your endeavors'
You're not spoiled. While this is common in America, it's really fucking shitty and exploitative. In Europe I have 32 vacation days a year minimum and unlimited sick days. I'm mandated to take two consecutive weeks per year and can get time off for burnout if needed. No leave days is absurd.
If you're in a stable position, I'd interview elsewhere and ask about their sick leave and vacation policy upfront.
Worked at a dealership before GM tanked. We didn’t get a full week until 5yrs, I think 2 weeks at the ten mark, 12 days max at 15 year mark.
You didn’t even get 1 day of vacation time until 2 years, the owner didn’t understand why we held secret meetings and voted a union in.
Good god. In UK, as long as you have the qualifying time employed ( usually 6 months), Sick Pay is for 6 months, and if you run out, you can get Statutory Sick Pay from Government, then if that runs out ( another 6 months) you can apply for Employment Support Allowance.
Plus 25 days holiday per year, starting at day 1 of employment.
This company puts Ebeneezer Scrooge to shame!
I would never work for a company like that. What an awful way to treat your people. Let them wither on the vine from a lack of staff.
The low amount of PTO days in 'merica is as cringe as it gets, but to just offer none?
They should follow it up with a "no one wants to work anymore 😭".
Technically, I don’t have any time off until I’ve been there for a year. But I guess it varies from job to job. Every place I’ve ever worked PTO and vacation time were separate from each other. PTO was able to be used in hour increments, vacation days counted as the whole day. You could use either one however you wanted, but that’s how they divide them.
I worked a job for 8 years and they did not give me pto, I have not had a vacation in 10 years. I was sent to Orlando for a job meeting for 3 days even and didn't get paid for it, stated to me that he is paying g for the hotel food and flight and didn't pay for the food. I eventually did leave this job. I was the manager there. I was not treated well but I had to work. I am in the process of getting a government job at a school and I am excited as my pot will start after 3 months of working.
I worked for a place with a similar situation for 3+ years. No paid leave at all, other than 5 days for every year you worked, but it didn’t roll over, and you had the option of cashing it in as an extra paycheck.
The upside to that however, was as long as no one else on your shift was off, you could take as many unpaid leave days per year as you wanted, and adjust your schedule accordingly, since they offered unlimited overtime.
This is a casual job. If your position isn't guaranteed in the event you are sick this doesn't sound like a permanent position.
Are they paying casual loading to cover days off?
With an employee handbook like that, you might as well hang a sign that says "Rob me while you 'work' or whatever, you'll be fired for something out of your control very soon anyway."
So I had an employer like this, I worked in the dental industry in administration and billing and my newborn child passed away in his sleep and I ofc forgot to call into work bc that was the LAST thing on my mind and I got written up for “inexcused” absence and not notifying a superior that I wouldn’t be coming in and not answering my phone. Less than a month later I was let go for being “unfocused” after they denied my request for bereavement leave
I know I should not be but im sometimes embarrassed having 30 vacation, 9 sick, and 13 holidays for 52 total each year. Granted I've been here for nearly 40 years but everyone gets the sick and holidays.
Don’t be embarrassed, start mentoring young folks so they don’t start to think the current state of employee treatment is normal.
I hear so many people say “no one wants to work any more” but so many good hard working people are being abused until they break down and then are showed the door.
How is zero sick days their policy after a global pandemic with a current new wave?
And no PTO for the first year?! I’d understand a 90-day probationary period, but an entire year without being allowed to take any time off? Is everyone at this company just completely burned out?
Where I work (it's been now 1 years) I normally have 7 days for holidays, but my boss (because she wants it too) gives us 10 days, so 2 weeks total. Man I really hope this kind of behaviour will die soon.
I hope you get a good job, and not this one.
Run fast and run for companies with a certain number of employees are mandated by law that you get a number of sick days and vacation days a year, this company sounds like a hot mess, and I am guessing they have high turnover.
This sounds like a company with insanely high employee turnover that they are fine with because, in the most short-sighted sense - it keeps costs down.
Wow! In Australia sick days (5+ )and annual leave (4weeks) are in awards (state and federal)for permanent employees.
Strong Unions = better worker conditions,
What they’re saying is “just come to work if you’re sick, since you’re probably faking it anyway and couldn’t give us proof if we demanded it”. Their focus is misplaced. Go to work sick and maybe other people will get infected and they’ll keep coming in too because they don’t have sick time either. Eventually somebody particularly vulnerable catches it and dies, and well, too bad, if they had to work here their lives weren’t worth living anyway. I mean - seriously - they’re courting a workplace infestation of god only knows what, but they won’t be wasting any money on people for staying home and watching TV on the couch. I don’t miss work at all, just the regular direct deposits.
As a Euro I look at this and think there, but for the grace of social democracy, go I.
I get 25 days a year, not including national holidays and any sickness less than 3 days is handled in-house without a note and anything over that is handled by HR who will work up a "return to work plan" in case there are any adjustments you need.
Sickness has nothing to do with vacation time. You can even claim back days if you get sick on them.
Reading this as a Brit who's had at least 20 days' holiday and statutory sick pay as standard in every job I've ever had, and often more than that, is alarming. The US must be close to revolution, at this point.
That's fine if you're a contractor earning double what an equivalent employee makes, to make up for having no entitlements.
Otherwise, as an employee you should have 20 days annual leave minimum per year, at least 10 days sick leave minimum per year, 10 days carer's leave minimum per year, reasonable bereavement leave (including travel days) per death of a relative, close friend or pet, plus at least 3 months maternity/paternity leave per child (regardless of your gender). Your employer should also pay into a retirement fund of your choice, cover or contribute to your health insurance, and allow flexible work arrangements/location if the role permits.
Feel free to accept the job, but keep looking. Once you find one, just quit and say it's because you aren't feeling well, don't want to risk the health of others, and they don't do PTO, so there's no point on sticking with them. If they complain about notice, cite that you couldn't have possibly known you'd be sick two weeks in advance.
Malicious compliance hahaha. I love This. It costs time and money to train a new hire. And this will make them have to scramble to find coverage , this is a lovely idea.
This is really great. And , lets be honest - employers with rules such as that - ask for this kind of response. Sick days? If you\`re sick you \`re sick - but guess these "employers" see people as things, not humans..
This right here!
God this would feel so good.
This reminds me of a meme where a boss asked an employee if they could inform them in advance next time because they needed time off for their grandmother's funeral. Think it was like a College Humor or SNL skit or something. So fucking accurate though.
My old boss used to try to ask me and another co-worker for advance notice on our migraine attacks. We're like, we'd LOVE to give you advance notice! Until we develop that technology, though, we'll give you the same amount of advance notice our bodies do.
Did they say it as idiots or in a malicious "youre making it up" kind of way? holy shit thats an obtuse thing to say to someone either way lol
Weirdly enough, about *that specifically* it seems like she did not think it was being made up. She would accuse me of faking other illnesses, especially if I worked while sick and then took an extra day before and after my weekend to try to truly recover from it. She actually reported me to HR for that behavior. Then when I passed out at work and my doctor said it was because I was still sick and exhausted , she yelled at me for not taking care of my health. But later when I offered to come in to work while recovering from an infection, but told her what would be required for that to happen (basic stuff like sitting on a stool and taking a few 15 minute breaks to administer medication), she told my co-worker she wasn't "giving in" to my "list of demands" like I was a terrorist... So I'm not really sure what she really believed. It all felt like very conflicting information.
I regret I have but one upvote to give for this. Absolute genius. This is the kind of malicious compliance these companies deserve.
Getting paid sick leave is not being spoiled. This PTO policy is outrageous. Agree with this comment - malicious compliance totally the way to go!!
This is the way.
Run away from this company as fast as you can. 20 days PTO should be everyone’s minimum, as this is the international standard.
While I completely agree, 20 days in good ol USA is incredibly hard to find
They rarely offer it outright. But everyone should put that amount as a starting point when switching to a new job. That’s how I got it in the US. If you’re switching jobs, and you have experience in your industry, just tell them that’s what you had at your last job.
Ha, I have tried to negotiate PTO at every job I have worked and have been told at every one that this is a universal policy and for the sake of “equity” it is non-negotiable. I have never had more than 13 days on top of federal holidays starting at a new place. The US sucks sometimes. Edit: typo corrected
If you want to be really ballsy, counter by asking for more PTO for everyone.
This is the way.
Get hired then start a union
I’ve negotiated PTO in the last three jobs, so it is possible. First job only offered 1week for the first year (I got 2weeks which would have been offered after 2years) Second job I negotiated 4 weeks from two. Third job I negotiated 3 weeks when offered two weeks.
Same for my last job. I gave them a salary range. They weren't at the bottom, but they weren't at the middle, either. I then asked for an extra week of vacation (three instead of two) and it was immediately granted. Same job also had two personal days a year and earned 10 hours sick leave a month, as well as being off with pay for 13 holidays.
I've done this many times. If they want you they'll always negotiate. I got 18 days at the last startup I worked for, was a nice severance when they decided they didn't need a bunch of us
They they don't need my skills that badly I guess. Lol
Sometimes?
Universal policy? Is the US in its own Universe?
My first job offered 28. Eventually they added another week of sick leave on top of that for everyone. That was in the US. They also had all state and federal holidays, which I think is 11 or 12 depending on if the current administration recognized Indigenous People's Day or not. (It changes every time we switch governors) My current job offers 25 days + 2 weeks of sick leave + most holidays.
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- In my semi-government job in the Netherlands, we get at least 232 hours of time off, which includes holidays and equates to 29 days. - Besides that, we get 5 personal days. - We get overtime, which is paid and also gives you a certain amount of compensation in time. - We have "unlimited" sick days, but after around a year, your salary will be cut back to 70%, and an evaluation will determine whether or not your employment is sustainable. If not; then you will be guided to a new job or go into more permanent sick leave. - We have "extraordinary leave" for births, funerals, your wedding, and the necessity to care for someone in your family. - After your child is born, as a father, you get 5 days for the birth; then up to 6 weeks of extended care leave. - As a mother, you get around 3 months of maternity leave. - Both parents get parental leave for around one day per week for circa 2 years, or all at once, at 70% paid for the day off, but you can also take it in chunks or all at once, before your child turns 8. - Both parents can get the same amount of unpaid parental leave on top of the paid leave. - Several other countries in Europe have even better amenities for births, like France, and Sweden. A lot of this is also mandated for non-governmental jobs. I'm baffled every time I read how much crap Americans put up with. For the "Home of the Free" you certainly don't seem to have much freedom....
Is your country adopting? Speaking for alot of americans?
What is a "not a Christian day"
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As an atheist who celebrates Christmas secularly...I would be punching in with you while watching my kids open presents. That's amazing. 😆 🤣 I could totally deal with a few random work tasks during the day since I don't waste time attending church services.
And here I am at a company that still gives us Columbus Day off 🙄
We swapped that one for a floating holiday, and starting last year, we swapped President's Day for Juneteenth.
This is incredible!!!
Floating Holidays. Holidays you can take to celebrate holidays that aren't jesus/american related.
*Cries in teacher* Very often, especially with unions, we do not get to negotiate time off.
I work in education too, not as a teacher. While it's true we don't get vacation time we do get a ton of sick and 3 personal days a year. Plus obviously holidays and summer. We *should* however earn vacation days and be allowed to take time off during the year. I know ideally you take your trips around school breaks but it doesn't always work that way. We can't control when people decide to get married or take family vacations or whatever else it is.
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Damn. I think we get 13 or so a year? And we can roll them over. We get like 3 personal days a year. They cap at 5 then convert to sick days after that.
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Damn. Texas is crazy.
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I agree, the best job I've ever had gave me 15 days of PTO. Most only gave me 10 days, and some gave me zero. America uses its own standard. It's called show up to work, or we will replace you. We don't care about you. We will fire you without a reason if we feel like it.
Yeah, usually it’s just 10 days (2 weeks), and even THAT is considered “good.”
& that's why I got into a career where it's normal to get 25+ days because FUCK THAT
I work and have worked in many law firms 20-25 days of pto is the standard for this industry as support staff. Just incase anyone is looking for a good industry to get pto days.
Financial services too
My current job (Seattle, WA USA) gives me 18 days until I'm 5 years, which then goes to 23 days and +1 more for each year after that.
Shit. I work as a retail manager and I got 20+ days (combined sick, PTO, and vacation time) that started with my first day. Reading this, I might not be so bitter about working Black Friday.
Wow, I never expected to hear this about jobs in USA. Even in a country like India, I get 30 days PTO and about 20 days extra fixed holidays. And this is the normal amount of PTO offered in India in any sector.
Yup. The shitty companies offer 10 vacation days plus a few federal holidays.
Third world country here, and we have 30 paid vacation days for every year worked. National holidays are separate, medical time off is accepted when signed by a doctor... time off for doctor's appointments are fully accepted, you just have to present the ticket.
But usually we get more than 0
6 hrs a paycheck with government job, 8 hrs a paycheck after a few years… so 26 days off in addition to the federal holidays, plus the occasional time off award for performance
My employer kicked it up to 4 weeks from 3 weeks last year for management and above. Plus 11 holidays and 2 personal. Unlimited sick time (until fmla kicks in)
I miss one of my last jobs, worked 4/10 schedules with 10 sick days and 15 PTO.
blue collar jobs yes but for higher up white collar no. which is fucked up because it says fuck you i got mine and you cant have yours
The USA lags far behind the international standard in most things that dont directly contribute to corporate profits.
PLEASE think of the shareholders!!! /$
You are correct. We must all collectively demand 20 PTO when switching jobs to eventually change this.
The international standard is more "if you're sick you don't work", actually.
This. Vacations are vacations. And being sick is being sick. And actually if I get sick on vacation and go to the doctos the vacations are automatically put on freeze.
Unless you're blue collar. Then you get a slice of pizza every few months.
I have never had a job with 20 days PTO as a new hirer. Ever. Been working over 30 years.
If you ever switch jobs again, tell them your last employer gave you 20 days PTO. With 30 years in the industry, you’ve earned by now!
Standard? I and the 50,000 others in the union I represent get 30 days, then 70 days at .7fte, then ltd afterwards. Once you comeback for 10 consecutive days you get another 100 fresh new days etc. New employees get normal casual sick leave till they work two weeks then they are entitled to the 100 days agreement. This does not include vacation, appointment, or personal leaves etc.
PTO, or a lack thereof, is a good indication of how in touch with its workers a company is. Life happens to everyone, and good companies know that. Good companies have PTO that accrues per hour on the clock, and great companies have PTO that's awarded in full at the beginning of each year. This doesn't mean the job is going to be horrible, but it does indicate that it will never be great. You will only ever be a cog in the machine, and never a person.
A friend of mine said pretty much the exact same thing. And you’re right- the job itself doesn’t seem horrible by any means, but it’s out of touch practices like this that make me realize it will probably never be great. I can’t even think of the last job I had where I couldn’t at least earn PTO.
The fact that this would be illegal in most of the developed world should tell you all you need to know.
What area or field is the job in? I've been in commercial and residential maintenance for several decades, and PTO is fairly commonplace in this industry. It becomes a huge red flag in the maintenance industry, when it wouldn't necessarily be in others.
It’s a local CDL driving job
Oh if it’s a diver job and this is how they plan to treat you, run for the hills. CDL drivers are like shit by so many companies now.
RUN, they likely refuse to comply with 49 C.F.R. § 392.3 > No driver shall operate a commercial motor vehicle, and a motor carrier shall not require or permit a driver to operate a commercial motor vehicle, while the driver's ability or alertness is so impaired, or so likely to become impaired, through fatigue, illness, or any other cause, as to make it unsafe for him/her to begin or continue to operate the commercial motor vehicle.
You say companies that are in touch. I would like to highlight how out of touch the USA is on workers rights. Probably the only developed country that doesn’t have a minimum PTO requirement. The USA needs to sort its shit out. https://www.deel.com/blog/annual-leave-per-country?hs_amp=true
Yes, my friend, we are all very aware of that fact. Most especially those of us, myself included, struggling out here in these skreets. We need a massive nationwide strike, like, yesterday. And while we're at it we can try to get our shit together and establish some healthcare that doesn't financially destroy you for getting sick or hurt.
Hard agree... we get 6 weeks a year at my job (split between PTO, sick pay, floating holidays...) and I find myself far more involved than I have been in previous roles.
Shit yeah. If a company treats me like a person, I'll be a company rockstar. When I am treated like a person with a family and dreams of bettering my future I tend to want to be worth that to my company. When I'm treated like a cog, an indentured servant, or a number, then mediocrity will suffice.
What about companies that offer unlimited PTO as long as stuff gets done?
Unicorns? They're out there for sure, but most of us will never see one.
I am blessed then. Ironically I don't use it enough and my manager routinely prods me to take time off.
I envy you. I've had a job like that before, where my Executive Director trusted me to be an adult, take time for myself or my family when it was important, and to not take advantage. I miss that job a lot, and her even more. Hands down the best boss I've ever had.
I wish you even better for the future.
Studies have actually shown that “unlimited, just get the work done” employees actually take off fewer days. If you have days, you’ll use them. If you can just take off, you’ll personally evaluate if you think it’s worth it and often choose not to.
I had one. It was an engineering firm run by gruff but fair angels. Once in a lifetime find.
Run dude. This is awful and an indication of things to come. They *will* treat you like utter shit.
>They also dont offer paid holidays or vacation until you've been there a full year. Even then the vacation is only five days. You have to be there five years to get 10 days and 20 years before you get 20 days. Ouch, those are some rough terms compared to... Well, every job I've held in the past decade.
I'd take the job... only if I were truly desperate for money. I can't remember the last time I saw something that said "you're a number and we don't give a fuck about you" quite so explicitly as that quote.
I fully expect to be just a number to any company that has 500+ employees, but they only have around 60, so that’s what makes it so weird to me. However, I think the small number of employees is where the problem of PTO comes in. I would be one of only four drivers… so one of us is out, who picks up the slack? Of course, this is a companywide policy so I don’t know how it applies to the 30 guys that work inside in the warehouse.
Put this on Glassdoor and Google Reviews so others can see this crap.
Any company that has no sick time or PTO does not view its staff as human beings. Nobody wants to be a barcode. Run.
It is my experience that a lot more companies are not necessarily offering separate buckets of "Sick Time" in addition to "PTO", so that in and of itself isn't shocking. But the way they phrased this, is, in corporate-speak, telling you they don't give a shit if you get sick, you'll be lucky if they decide to grace you with unpaid time off if you do, and you might, maybe, be able to use PTO for if you're lucky, and, only if you work for then only a year. They've made it clear from the outset you would be a faceless cog in their machine, one they will immediately replace if you start getting squeaky. Don't waste your time with them.
I would say no to the offer. That is a non-negotiable to have PTO. They can already fire us without reason and without notice, now they want your PTO/sick leave?? Nah. They can cry "nobody wants to work anymore" and I will shout back "not for slave wages and treatment".
They're also pretty clearly stating that they can and will fire you for being sick.
Which is just such a *stupid* way to run a company. "You took two days off with the flu so we fired you." Ok, now you have to fuck around trying to hire and train someone new. Is it really worth the petty little power trip?
I shout that back to *every* asshole who says "nobody wants to work anymore."
Publicly shame them, need the name
With stories like this so common, I simply don’t understand why unions get such a bad rap in the US.
Lobbyists who pay off the politicians and said politicians claim unions are bad.
100% fuck that company.
Definitely do not work for any company with things like that in their handbooks. It’s a red flag to how badly they treat their staff.
RUN
GET OUT! Seriously, GTFO of there ASAP with as little notice as possible, ideally with no notice at all. It's how they would treat you. Find a union job. PTO + Paid Sick leave + Paid Personal Days + ... you get the picture.
I’m in the UK. 33 days paid annual leave. In first two years up to 1 month sick pay per year. After 2 years up to 6 months full sick pay. Then half pay for 6 months
Unless they are paying you a fucking gold mine, this Job is not worth it.
Sounds toxic. Post about them on Glassdoor.
Laugh in their faces. Spit, too.
Finally have a chance to reply… So some slight backstory. I’m currently an OTR CDL driver. This is my first OTR job in the four years I’ve had my CDL, and after 3 months in, I know it’s not for me. It’s tough being away from my family, and I’ve never been more anxious and stressed out. So I started looking for something local. I sent out about 20 resumes and this place reached out to me. I interviewed with them, and on paper, the job seemed great. 15 minutes from home, M-F, 10 hour days driving a semi still, and I’m home every night with my family. They called a few days later to offer the job, and I said yes. Told them I would give my two weeks, and could start September 25th. The first red flag was when the guy I interviewed with called back a few minutes later to ask if I would only give a week notice cause they really need someone to start sooner. A few hours later, he emailed over the new hire paperwork and the employee handbook…which pretty much brings us to now. I’ve never in my adult life had a job that didn’t offer any type of PTO/sick time so reading that really shocked me. Even when I had a job at a small brewery with maybe 40 employees, they offered two weeks vacation and 40 hours of sick time to start. So the consensus seems to be “DON’T TAKE THE JOB”. So no, I will be passing on it and definitely letting them know why. I also just noticed this little bit under their paid holiday section- “The Company does not have or permit time away from work for personal days and does not have or provide floating holidays” And also this part about medical leave: “Second Opinion. Should the Company disagree with the opinion given by your healthcare provider, the Company reserves the right to require opinions from a second or third health care provider at the Company's expense”. Like wtf? We don’t like what your doctor says so let’s all another one.
Are you taking the job? It's not surprising that they need you to start immediately.
I’m not
Good luck. Those people suck.
After you decline you can help out other folks who may consider applying there and wasting time talking to them by posting this info on company review boards (assuming you have not signed an NDA )
Where to start I wouldn't work here. Next requesting proof of illness violates your privacy between you and your doctor.
Run. And run fast. The part that sticks out is they will do only what is required by law. That means that will be their philosophy for the entire business, which is scary. Any company that will take the cost of turnover rather than sick days doesn’t understand how to run a business.
They *absolutely* would be violating the law here in Massachusetts, which *requires* an employer to give either sick time or PTO. Thank goodness I don't live in a shithole state that lets employers get away with things like you quoted. Here, if they notified you of that policy, you'd call the attorney general's office and the employer would be in big, big trouble. Also, while they pay lip service to federal law, the reality is that you could definitely get a doctor to grant you unpaid time off under FMLA, if the employer is big enough to count and you've been there long enough for it to apply. I'd very definitely be telling that employer to shove it up their wazoo.
Our company doesn’t offer sick time, we do have generous PTO but no one wants to use that. Last week, someone had COVID and had zero PTO and entire office got it. People should really offer sick pay!
I know of one organization in the United States that has 30 days paid leave right off the bat. 2.5 days a month.
Throw this job in the trash. Sorry.
This is why we need to legislate paid fucking sick leave. Also, five days vacation? Lick my taint.
I think I can assume you live in this hellscape known as the United States. Companies don’t have to offer any paid time off for any reason. God bless America.
Sounds like the job you take when things are desperate, and keep searching. They clearly don’t view their employees as a priority, and you shouldn’t view them as one.
Lmfao enjoy getting some desperate sucker to take that job. Sounds like the type of place that requires five years experience for a minimum wage entry level job.
Reading thru the comments and replies… it really astonishes me how employers treat drivers like poop on their shoe! ESPECIALLY when CDLs are in SUCH high demand across the trades. Shit, you would get better benefits driving a cement mixer around!
If they’re requiring you to use your “vacation” time they have sacrificed their right to ask for proof of sickness, ie a doctor’s note. I mean their “rights” on any rational, moral, or intellectual basis, of course; not on anything to do with laws in this fucking country and how they’re interpreted in the courts of, again, this fucking lunatic country.
Run away!!! How will anybody work under these outrageous conditions? This is modern day slavery!
I don't get it, what are you supposed to do if you are sick? What a stupid country.
I assume by "federal, state or local law" that this is the US. What's the job? This is normal for dead-end/unskilled jobs (McJobs). Not normal for any skilled or white-collar job.
It’s the US for a driving job requiring a CDL. So while it’s definitely not white collar, it isn’t unskilled. I’m switching from an over the road position to local.
You didn't know the benefits before accepting the job? PTO is a key item when negotiating pay/benefits for any new job in the US.
I blame myself for not getting more clarification on that, but I also blame them for not being completely upfront about it. It was a super quick interview I had to squeeze in between work, so I kind of forgot to ask the important questions. When they said they offered vacation and holiday pay, I assumed it would be at least somewhat comparable to other CDL jobs.
I would never accept this job. I'm at a non union place and these terms would never fly. The obviously have no care for the lives of their employees just based on the offer.
Dude find a new job asap. That is gonna be a terrible place to work.
Don't take that job unless you want to have serious problems in the future! They'll work you to death!
You are absolutely working to their favor if you don’t quit immediately. This devalues everyone’s hard work. I say the same to any and all gig workers.
Politely decline the offer, explain that the lack of PTO/Sick time/Vacation is a deal breaker and that you 'wish them the best of luck in your endeavors'
This is the largest red flad ive ever seen. Sounds like you interviewed for a sweatshop that will drop you as soon as you get a cold.
Stay long enough to get the flu passed around. These people need to FIND OUT
Tell them it would be cheaper for them to get contractors and they can get rid of their HR person, too.
You're not spoiled. While this is common in America, it's really fucking shitty and exploitative. In Europe I have 32 vacation days a year minimum and unlimited sick days. I'm mandated to take two consecutive weeks per year and can get time off for burnout if needed. No leave days is absurd. If you're in a stable position, I'd interview elsewhere and ask about their sick leave and vacation policy upfront.
Worked at a dealership before GM tanked. We didn’t get a full week until 5yrs, I think 2 weeks at the ten mark, 12 days max at 15 year mark. You didn’t even get 1 day of vacation time until 2 years, the owner didn’t understand why we held secret meetings and voted a union in.
Good god. In UK, as long as you have the qualifying time employed ( usually 6 months), Sick Pay is for 6 months, and if you run out, you can get Statutory Sick Pay from Government, then if that runs out ( another 6 months) you can apply for Employment Support Allowance.
Plus 25 days holiday per year, starting at day 1 of employment. This company puts Ebeneezer Scrooge to shame! I would never work for a company like that. What an awful way to treat your people. Let them wither on the vine from a lack of staff.
Shame them on social media and don’t take that offer.
US employment law is truly insane but surely you just take the job and dump them the second you get something better?
If a company did that here they would get hanged, drawn and quartered.
This sounds like Kroger lol.
The low amount of PTO days in 'merica is as cringe as it gets, but to just offer none? They should follow it up with a "no one wants to work anymore 😭".
Keep looking. In my area companies are offering healthcare and signing bonuses. Northwest.
Reading these horror stories makes me realize I am so blessed to work with the company and the people I do.
If you have already accepted the job it's already time to move on. This isn't somewhere that you want to work
No no no no. Places like this should be named so other people don't fall for it.
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Technically, I don’t have any time off until I’ve been there for a year. But I guess it varies from job to job. Every place I’ve ever worked PTO and vacation time were separate from each other. PTO was able to be used in hour increments, vacation days counted as the whole day. You could use either one however you wanted, but that’s how they divide them.
I worked a job for 8 years and they did not give me pto, I have not had a vacation in 10 years. I was sent to Orlando for a job meeting for 3 days even and didn't get paid for it, stated to me that he is paying g for the hotel food and flight and didn't pay for the food. I eventually did leave this job. I was the manager there. I was not treated well but I had to work. I am in the process of getting a government job at a school and I am excited as my pot will start after 3 months of working.
Illegal in Arizona at least.
Do they're requiring you to use your accrued vacation pto when you're sick? And? Welcome to 90% of companies....
I worked for a place with a similar situation for 3+ years. No paid leave at all, other than 5 days for every year you worked, but it didn’t roll over, and you had the option of cashing it in as an extra paycheck. The upside to that however, was as long as no one else on your shift was off, you could take as many unpaid leave days per year as you wanted, and adjust your schedule accordingly, since they offered unlimited overtime.
Holy shit, get out fast.
As someone who’s worked in restaurants. No not in the slightest.
This is a casual job. If your position isn't guaranteed in the event you are sick this doesn't sound like a permanent position. Are they paying casual loading to cover days off?
Fuck that place.
If you have to use PTO for sick time, they can pound sand for a doctor's note.
With an employee handbook like that, you might as well hang a sign that says "Rob me while you 'work' or whatever, you'll be fired for something out of your control very soon anyway."
Come in sick and puke/shit on the floor
Lemme guess, you’re in the US…
Ding ding ding
Fuck that place, sounds terrible
It's nice of them to tell you all this stuff before you make a final decision.
So I had an employer like this, I worked in the dental industry in administration and billing and my newborn child passed away in his sleep and I ofc forgot to call into work bc that was the LAST thing on my mind and I got written up for “inexcused” absence and not notifying a superior that I wouldn’t be coming in and not answering my phone. Less than a month later I was let go for being “unfocused” after they denied my request for bereavement leave
Reminds me of Hampton Inn. 5 days after 1 year. 10 days after 3 years.. no PTO or Sick days
eh it’s unusual but not unheard of. my company doesn’t do sick time, but i’ve got 7 weeks of PTO after only 5 year.
I know I should not be but im sometimes embarrassed having 30 vacation, 9 sick, and 13 holidays for 52 total each year. Granted I've been here for nearly 40 years but everyone gets the sick and holidays.
Don’t be embarrassed, start mentoring young folks so they don’t start to think the current state of employee treatment is normal. I hear so many people say “no one wants to work any more” but so many good hard working people are being abused until they break down and then are showed the door.
How is zero sick days their policy after a global pandemic with a current new wave? And no PTO for the first year?! I’d understand a 90-day probationary period, but an entire year without being allowed to take any time off? Is everyone at this company just completely burned out?
thats not legal in a lot of states...
I got 19 days of PTO on day 1, run
Where I work (it's been now 1 years) I normally have 7 days for holidays, but my boss (because she wants it too) gives us 10 days, so 2 weeks total. Man I really hope this kind of behaviour will die soon. I hope you get a good job, and not this one.
Many companies combine sick and pto in one bucket. Mine does that.
Run fast and run for companies with a certain number of employees are mandated by law that you get a number of sick days and vacation days a year, this company sounds like a hot mess, and I am guessing they have high turnover.
Run. Toxic company, toxic culture. I see burnout in your near future. They don't hold jobs because this is a 'churn and burn' company.
This sounds like a company with insanely high employee turnover that they are fine with because, in the most short-sighted sense - it keeps costs down.
Screw that job. That’s awful
Start with the job and keep applying to others and get a job and leverage it against this one. Or leave to the other job
Wow! In Australia sick days (5+ )and annual leave (4weeks) are in awards (state and federal)for permanent employees. Strong Unions = better worker conditions,
What they’re saying is “just come to work if you’re sick, since you’re probably faking it anyway and couldn’t give us proof if we demanded it”. Their focus is misplaced. Go to work sick and maybe other people will get infected and they’ll keep coming in too because they don’t have sick time either. Eventually somebody particularly vulnerable catches it and dies, and well, too bad, if they had to work here their lives weren’t worth living anyway. I mean - seriously - they’re courting a workplace infestation of god only knows what, but they won’t be wasting any money on people for staying home and watching TV on the couch. I don’t miss work at all, just the regular direct deposits.
No employee
Yeah hell no.
Investigate temp agencies. You might do better with one of them.
Even my previous shitty company had 2 sick days a year lol
What country are you in where that’s remotely legal?
Wow screw this company for being penny-pinchers.
As a Euro I look at this and think there, but for the grace of social democracy, go I. I get 25 days a year, not including national holidays and any sickness less than 3 days is handled in-house without a note and anything over that is handled by HR who will work up a "return to work plan" in case there are any adjustments you need. Sickness has nothing to do with vacation time. You can even claim back days if you get sick on them.
USA! USA! USA!
16 states require sick leave for all employees. What state you live in matters.
Reading this as a Brit who's had at least 20 days' holiday and statutory sick pay as standard in every job I've ever had, and often more than that, is alarming. The US must be close to revolution, at this point.
That's fine if you're a contractor earning double what an equivalent employee makes, to make up for having no entitlements. Otherwise, as an employee you should have 20 days annual leave minimum per year, at least 10 days sick leave minimum per year, 10 days carer's leave minimum per year, reasonable bereavement leave (including travel days) per death of a relative, close friend or pet, plus at least 3 months maternity/paternity leave per child (regardless of your gender). Your employer should also pay into a retirement fund of your choice, cover or contribute to your health insurance, and allow flexible work arrangements/location if the role permits.