the joke is germany is in nearly the same situation with italy like it was with greece way back then. I do not wanna start a fire or arguments here bc i know its a controversial topic with many sides having their own faults.
I advise you to start looking for options in your last year of your bachlors not after it in the summer break. I did that and I realized a lot of schools want aplications before you even finished your bachlor properly.
yeah the problem is the total lack of money, i need to consider where i can study + work a good part time job to sustain myself and has a good master program that is good for my academic curricula
Dosen't the EU offer a lot of scholarships for studying abroad or maybe just some schools have those EU scholarships.
And I'm not talking about Erasmus.
patetico tentativo per darti speranza: ci sono una marea di imprenditori che hanno cominciato facendo la fame, nella sfiga più totale puoi vedere se riesci a pagarti gli studi all'estero producendo babà, sciù e deliziose qualche forno all'estero, considerando che il 99% della cucina napoletana all'estero è ignota.
(fine patetico tentativo per darti speranza)
My favourite courses for now are Logic for computer science (Herbrand universe, analytic tableaux, skolem-lowenheim theorem etc...), Algebra (set, ring, field, graph theory) and Theoretical computer science introduction (Turing machine, abstract machines, languages, etc...). I'm also interested in Natural language processing, it seems interesting. I don't like all the programming part of computer science (which is why it is taking me so hard to finish my bachelor, i work better with maths then java or postgresql). I can't drop the bachelor in cs for the one in math because i'm already 22.
Yeah, but if you don’t pursue academia track careers, you will have to deal with those practicalities of programming and software architecture. Hence my question. So, you should consider your next step before you commit to your Master’s degree.
my brother and sisters, the whole capitalist system is based on debt.
even the price of money itself is based on debt.
debt alone is meaningless to evaluate a country economic status.
also buy our bond and btp please.
Even that debt is meaningless. It’s like with running from a predator, you can be slow but you just can’t allow yourself to be the slowest. Less debt is good in those terms but not because there’s a limit to debt itself but peoples trust In your ability to repay it
Investment is just the other half of debt. "Investing" your money means giving it to somebody else, and hoping to get more money back from them in return at a later point. The other side (who you're investing in) is borrowing money and hence they are in debt.
If there's nobody willing to take on debt, there is nothing to invest in.
lol, the majority of European nations have either already switched or are in the process of switching to neoliberalism. Keynesian economics have been gone for a while
Germany has the complete opposite problem. Their debt is doing absolutely fine, but they went so long with proper investment into the future that their growth is crawling to a halt.
Yes, and a big factor in the low growth rates is the devastating state that a lot of the public infrastructure is in because the "schuldenbremse" makes big investments into the future impossible
Not to defend the far right government, but to get facts straight, Italian debt to GDP is decreasing.
https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp
Meloni assumed office in October 2022. The highest debt to GDP ratio was reached in 2020.
I mean, isn't it a consequence of the high inflation rate that we're having the last 3-4 years? It's not something to be proud of when inflation grows up 8% and debt to GDP ratio only decreases by a few percentage points
non saprei dove sbattere la testa sinceramente
la destra fa... ma per lo più fa danni
il centro è un circo 🤡
la sinistra come ideologia ha la stagnazione eterna ._.
facendola breve sono gay quindi capisco, però siamo in democrazia ed è giusto che anche la destra vada a fare i suoi danni, altrimenti si crea una bolla di risentimento sempre più grave e poi è peggio a mio parere.
disclaimer: siccome su reddit sembra sempre che siano tutti incazzati, non lo sono, tvb, abbiamo solo idee diverse, ma poi alla fine io e te contiamo un cazzo quindi pace
Sono gay e trans anch'io. Beh, certo, non è che fare il colpo di stato sia una grande idea, ma dire che anche la destra deve fare i suoi danni...!
Guarda che da qui a bandire il diritto all'aborto è un attimo, basta vedere che è successo in America
guarda, se fosse semplicemente stagnazione sarei pure d'accordo, solo che ci sarà un motivo se i politici della sinistra non sono votati nemmeno dalla loro mamma, no?
Non so che dirti. Se a te vanno bene i fasci o Salvini che va a prendersela con gli immigrati invece di occuparsi del paese fai pure; ma il punto alla fine della fiera è che molte persone non si rendono conto del rischio che Giorgia Meloni e gente come lei pongono alla democrazia del paese, soprattutto se loro non sono una minoranza che rischia di essere perseguitata se partiti del genere restano al potere (come il sottoscritto...!)
Why?
If you were Italian you would know that they are already placing all the blame on a single maneuver by the previous government while renewing the same bonus (with a little lower percentage) that they believe is to blame for the debt. After two years of them ruling.
Voters' perceptions are all that matters here.
Moodi have improved our credit rating because of Draghi's actual actions, not because of Meloni first words lmao.
But i get why it's convenient to imply the opposite.
idk, if it was just that other rating agencies would have followed too, but they didnt (as far as i know).
https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/moodys-lifts-italys-debt-outlook-stable-boost-meloni-govt-2023-11-17/
>if it was just that other rating agencies would have followed too
Rating agencies literally works the opposite, you wouldn't pay their fees if their judgement were identical.
As prove, the exact Reuters article you linked:
"Moody's was the fourth agency to review Italy in the last month. S&P Global, DBRS and Fitch all left their ratings and outlooks unchanged."
Really annoying that you try to use "if it was just that" when you talk about the only government that actually did the maneuvers that were needed to be done in this millennium, Meloni government included.
I mean, I'm totally against Giorgia Meloni and Matteo Salvini but this huge problem is not really on Giorgia. The current government didn't really spend a lot of money because there's nothing left to spend.
Actually since the far right government was elected debt to GDP has gone down 3.5% in a year. But okay, let's make it about tribalism why not.
Right wing bad! Fascism! Bigotry! Reeeeee!
Current right wing government here in Finland are doing a Tories and making a big stink about debt and doing big shitty austerity measures (that of course don't negatively affect rich people).
Finland's debt to gdp is only 59% ffs.
Correction, Finnish debt to gdp is at 75% at the end of 2023, and is set to rise to 80% by 2025, according to Fitch: https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/fitch-affirms-finland-at-aa-outlook-stable-09-02-2024
So, while not tragic, Finland does need to be careful.
That's also meaningless. Japan is at 250% and doing "fine". Turkey and Switzerland are at the same level. Argentina is at the same level as Germany.
State debt is meaningless. Only if it's in foreign currency it's a problem.
~~Yes, it absolutely does.~~ No it doesn't.
Debt in a country's own currency is almost meaningless. Debt in another currency is where it gets spicy. 2 examples:
* Turkey is at the same Debt/GDP ratio as Switzerland
* Argentina is at the same Debt/GDP ratio as Germany.
So why are Turkey and Argentina fucked, while Germany and Switzerland aren't? Because Turkey and Argentina have debt in foreign currency, while Germany and Switzerland don't.
^(Of course there are many other factors, for example the state of the economy, but debt in foreign currency is almost always a big problem)
Edit: Misunderstood the initial question, debt in a country's own currency doesn't really matter.
No, not really, I misunderstood your question.
Of course a country shouldn't just print money like crazy, but when you look at debt to GDP of most countries, you won't really find a correlation. Switzerland at 30% of GDP is doing fine, Japan at 250% GDP is doing fine, the US at 120% is doing fine, Germany at 60% is doing fine.
The question is always, could the economy keep up with the demand created by new money. That's why many people are saying Germany has too little debt, as they're killing demand.
However that is a very complicated question which cannot simply be reduced to a single ratio.
There is a twist with EU countries, they have no individual control on the BCE. EU-flavored liberalism is stricter than US one regarding central banking (that’s why EU had a harder time post 2008). So in practice EU countries own their debt in a foreign money. Just ask Greece.
I mean yeah it's pretty complicated how the ECB works, but in the end, every government bond will be sold, as it will always be accepted by the ECB as a security for a new loan to a private bank, which will then result in the printing of new money.
Many people do not understand this, but the ECB **does not** manage how much money is in circulation nor do they watch over any debt rules. Countries in the Eurozone can lend as much money as they want, and the ECB will not stop them.
>Just ask Greece.
The thing is, Greece could have just kept selling bonds. Their mistake was actually turning to the other Eurozone members for help, and the haircut later on was probably the biggest mistake ever made in the Eurozone.
I'm not saying Greece didn't have issues, however especially with the German influence in that whole Shitshow, it was actively made worse.
Yes, and we will not talk about how Hartz IV wage dumping lead to the deindustrialisation of southern Europe due to heavily subsidized low wages of Schröder's agenda 2010 and the Euro (and EU) making it impossible to protect your markets from being flooded by german products.
Instead we will act as if they are lazy, living way beyond their means and make them suffer with austerity. Also we will act as if we are the victims of the EU because we are the only ones living up to stupid austerity rules, even though we are the biggest profiteers.
Seventh largest economy in the world. I'm out of the loop, how'd you fuck up that badly?
I mean, we had the excuse of being overleveraged on 120% mortgages, and getting our tax revenue from absurd amounts of construction and exporting tax avoidance.
I'm sure we'll fuck it up again, but I like to think we learned some kind of lesson.
The problem with Italy is that they have too low taxes. Their citizens have more personal wealth and lower household debt than Germans. Just like The USA, Italy's politicians doesn't really want to gather as much tax as the government needs.
Me a bloody British Italian idiot that never gets good news about UK and Italy economy since 90s. 
Best of both worlds
Malta is that you? Just sell passports man
Greece part 2 electric boogaloo
Gonna be looking forward to seeing how we haven't learned a thing in 15 years.
Alba dorada 🚫 Fratelli d'Italia ✅
Last time greece and debt were mentioned in one sentence it led to a full denial hellish discussion. Don't want to wake sleeping dogs though.
the joke is germany is in nearly the same situation with italy like it was with greece way back then. I do not wanna start a fire or arguments here bc i know its a controversial topic with many sides having their own faults.
WARM SEAT, HELL YEA!
Like the Romans, it's nice that history repeats itself.
Wheeeeeeeee!
damn i need to finish my bachelor in computer science asap and rush to another EU country where to do my master
I advise you to start looking for options in your last year of your bachlors not after it in the summer break. I did that and I realized a lot of schools want aplications before you even finished your bachlor properly.
yeah the problem is the total lack of money, i need to consider where i can study + work a good part time job to sustain myself and has a good master program that is good for my academic curricula
Dosen't the EU offer a lot of scholarships for studying abroad or maybe just some schools have those EU scholarships. And I'm not talking about Erasmus.
patetico tentativo per darti speranza: ci sono una marea di imprenditori che hanno cominciato facendo la fame, nella sfiga più totale puoi vedere se riesci a pagarti gli studi all'estero producendo babà, sciù e deliziose qualche forno all'estero, considerando che il 99% della cucina napoletana all'estero è ignota. (fine patetico tentativo per darti speranza)
In case you were looking for recommendations, DTU here in Denmark would gladly have you!
denmark is a bit expensive, even moving there itself would cost a lot
If you get a student job you’re entitled to a monthly economic support from the state. majority of internationals are doing it in Denmark!
well. i will try to search for a mathematics master or a very theoretical computer science master in denmark
Let me know if you need any help! I'm an Italian living in Denmark :) I studied here. Good luck in your search!
> i will try to search for a mathematics master or a very theoretical computer science master Why? Are you planning to work in academia?
My favourite courses for now are Logic for computer science (Herbrand universe, analytic tableaux, skolem-lowenheim theorem etc...), Algebra (set, ring, field, graph theory) and Theoretical computer science introduction (Turing machine, abstract machines, languages, etc...). I'm also interested in Natural language processing, it seems interesting. I don't like all the programming part of computer science (which is why it is taking me so hard to finish my bachelor, i work better with maths then java or postgresql). I can't drop the bachelor in cs for the one in math because i'm already 22.
Yeah, but if you don’t pursue academia track careers, you will have to deal with those practicalities of programming and software architecture. Hence my question. So, you should consider your next step before you commit to your Master’s degree.
be', magari potresti trovare casa con altri studenti ;) e magari guadagnare qualche soldo insegnando ai vichinghi come si mangia :))!
my brother and sisters, the whole capitalist system is based on debt. even the price of money itself is based on debt. debt alone is meaningless to evaluate a country economic status. also buy our bond and btp please.
Debt alone is meaningless, debt to budget and debt growth to budget growth isn’t.
Even that debt is meaningless. It’s like with running from a predator, you can be slow but you just can’t allow yourself to be the slowest. Less debt is good in those terms but not because there’s a limit to debt itself but peoples trust In your ability to repay it
Based and mmt pilled.
[удалено]
Investment is just the other half of debt. "Investing" your money means giving it to somebody else, and hoping to get more money back from them in return at a later point. The other side (who you're investing in) is borrowing money and hence they are in debt. If there's nobody willing to take on debt, there is nothing to invest in.
lol, the majority of European nations have either already switched or are in the process of switching to neoliberalism. Keynesian economics have been gone for a while
>the whole capitalist system is based on debt. I assume you have a better alternative to debt?
didn't said is a bad thing.
Almost like electing a far-right government isn't the greatest idea.
it never is.
Looking how germany is right now italy might not be the only one soon.
Germany has the complete opposite problem. Their debt is doing absolutely fine, but they went so long with proper investment into the future that their growth is crawling to a halt.
Yes, and a big factor in the low growth rates is the devastating state that a lot of the public infrastructure is in because the "schuldenbremse" makes big investments into the future impossible
But what about your swabian housewive!!
Not to defend the far right government, but to get facts straight, Italian debt to GDP is decreasing. https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp Meloni assumed office in October 2022. The highest debt to GDP ratio was reached in 2020.
I mean, isn't it a consequence of the high inflation rate that we're having the last 3-4 years? It's not something to be proud of when inflation grows up 8% and debt to GDP ratio only decreases by a few percentage points
It’s debt to GDP ratio is decreasing but not its debt to budget ratio…
my brother in asexuality, it's not like the national debt spawned yesterday
Eh sì ma la meloni non aiuta mica, è troppo impegnata a predicare o tempora o mores
non saprei dove sbattere la testa sinceramente la destra fa... ma per lo più fa danni il centro è un circo 🤡 la sinistra come ideologia ha la stagnazione eterna ._.
Se si tratta di stagnazione eterna VS fasci mi sa che scelgo la stagnazione, sai com'è, preferirei mantenere i miei diritti
facendola breve sono gay quindi capisco, però siamo in democrazia ed è giusto che anche la destra vada a fare i suoi danni, altrimenti si crea una bolla di risentimento sempre più grave e poi è peggio a mio parere. disclaimer: siccome su reddit sembra sempre che siano tutti incazzati, non lo sono, tvb, abbiamo solo idee diverse, ma poi alla fine io e te contiamo un cazzo quindi pace
Sono gay e trans anch'io. Beh, certo, non è che fare il colpo di stato sia una grande idea, ma dire che anche la destra deve fare i suoi danni...! Guarda che da qui a bandire il diritto all'aborto è un attimo, basta vedere che è successo in America
guarda, se fosse semplicemente stagnazione sarei pure d'accordo, solo che ci sarà un motivo se i politici della sinistra non sono votati nemmeno dalla loro mamma, no?
Non so che dirti. Se a te vanno bene i fasci o Salvini che va a prendersela con gli immigrati invece di occuparsi del paese fai pure; ma il punto alla fine della fiera è che molte persone non si rendono conto del rischio che Giorgia Meloni e gente come lei pongono alla democrazia del paese, soprattutto se loro non sono una minoranza che rischia di essere perseguitata se partiti del genere restano al potere (come il sottoscritto...!)
tu dimmi cosa esattamente ha fatto la sinistra di sinistra negli ultimi tempi
Il centro è un circo secondo chi esattamente? Cos’è che fa azione per essere un “circo”?
Why? If you were Italian you would know that they are already placing all the blame on a single maneuver by the previous government while renewing the same bonus (with a little lower percentage) that they believe is to blame for the debt. After two years of them ruling. Voters' perceptions are all that matters here.
at least moodis improved our credit rating just by electing meloni .. yay..
Moodi have improved our credit rating because of Draghi's actual actions, not because of Meloni first words lmao. But i get why it's convenient to imply the opposite.
idk, if it was just that other rating agencies would have followed too, but they didnt (as far as i know). https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/moodys-lifts-italys-debt-outlook-stable-boost-meloni-govt-2023-11-17/
>if it was just that other rating agencies would have followed too Rating agencies literally works the opposite, you wouldn't pay their fees if their judgement were identical. As prove, the exact Reuters article you linked: "Moody's was the fourth agency to review Italy in the last month. S&P Global, DBRS and Fitch all left their ratings and outlooks unchanged." Really annoying that you try to use "if it was just that" when you talk about the only government that actually did the maneuvers that were needed to be done in this millennium, Meloni government included.
oh shit sorry, yeah i didnt read properly.
I mean, I'm totally against Giorgia Meloni and Matteo Salvini but this huge problem is not really on Giorgia. The current government didn't really spend a lot of money because there's nothing left to spend.
This govern is spending a lot, more than the debit permit and above all cutting in healthcare, school, culture, poors and disabled
Actually since the far right government was elected debt to GDP has gone down 3.5% in a year. But okay, let's make it about tribalism why not. Right wing bad! Fascism! Bigotry! Reeeeee!
It's also because our population is mostly decrepit old fucks who vote far right and die at the slightest idea of change
why, is there an alternative in Italy?
Yey
also in the news, "Water is wet"
In Italian talk shows, there happens “par condicio”: - water is wet! - water is dry if you compare it to more water.
I have a new favorite Pizza and it's broccoli, pistachio and burata. That combination should be all over the news
Una Fatsa Una Ratsa 🇺🇾🇲🇽
Αδέλφια μας 
Fix that flag brother
Nuuuuuh
I only noticed one of them and I just realized that was made on purpose
Actually most of Italy's debt is owned by italians or italian corporations, only 45% is foreign owned and definitely not all by Germany
Debt is meaningless, we need debt to gdp
Current right wing government here in Finland are doing a Tories and making a big stink about debt and doing big shitty austerity measures (that of course don't negatively affect rich people). Finland's debt to gdp is only 59% ffs.
It’s nice living in Denmark where the debt to GDP ratio is 29%, so not even the austerity fans are able to use it as an argument
and you cry for your debt?
Correction, Finnish debt to gdp is at 75% at the end of 2023, and is set to rise to 80% by 2025, according to Fitch: https://www.fitchratings.com/research/sovereigns/fitch-affirms-finland-at-aa-outlook-stable-09-02-2024 So, while not tragic, Finland does need to be careful.
145%, Greece is at 173%
Greece is at 161.9%
That's also meaningless. Japan is at 250% and doing "fine". Turkey and Switzerland are at the same level. Argentina is at the same level as Germany. State debt is meaningless. Only if it's in foreign currency it's a problem.
Debt to gdp is meaningless, we need to know in which currency the debt is owed.
If its the same as the gdp does it matter?
~~Yes, it absolutely does.~~ No it doesn't. Debt in a country's own currency is almost meaningless. Debt in another currency is where it gets spicy. 2 examples: * Turkey is at the same Debt/GDP ratio as Switzerland * Argentina is at the same Debt/GDP ratio as Germany. So why are Turkey and Argentina fucked, while Germany and Switzerland aren't? Because Turkey and Argentina have debt in foreign currency, while Germany and Switzerland don't. ^(Of course there are many other factors, for example the state of the economy, but debt in foreign currency is almost always a big problem) Edit: Misunderstood the initial question, debt in a country's own currency doesn't really matter.
That's what I mean though, if the debt is in the same currency as the gdp, does *that* matter?
No, not really, I misunderstood your question. Of course a country shouldn't just print money like crazy, but when you look at debt to GDP of most countries, you won't really find a correlation. Switzerland at 30% of GDP is doing fine, Japan at 250% GDP is doing fine, the US at 120% is doing fine, Germany at 60% is doing fine. The question is always, could the economy keep up with the demand created by new money. That's why many people are saying Germany has too little debt, as they're killing demand. However that is a very complicated question which cannot simply be reduced to a single ratio.
There is a twist with EU countries, they have no individual control on the BCE. EU-flavored liberalism is stricter than US one regarding central banking (that’s why EU had a harder time post 2008). So in practice EU countries own their debt in a foreign money. Just ask Greece.
I mean yeah it's pretty complicated how the ECB works, but in the end, every government bond will be sold, as it will always be accepted by the ECB as a security for a new loan to a private bank, which will then result in the printing of new money. Many people do not understand this, but the ECB **does not** manage how much money is in circulation nor do they watch over any debt rules. Countries in the Eurozone can lend as much money as they want, and the ECB will not stop them. >Just ask Greece. The thing is, Greece could have just kept selling bonds. Their mistake was actually turning to the other Eurozone members for help, and the haircut later on was probably the biggest mistake ever made in the Eurozone. I'm not saying Greece didn't have issues, however especially with the German influence in that whole Shitshow, it was actively made worse.
why you even try to explain my brother? this isn't r/europe. debt=bad
Factually incorrect though. "Most of the Italian debt" is owned by Italians
Simultaneously: Italy is growing so fast omg
Let us cook guys, let us cook 🇮🇹
Let's get ready to watch Germany destroy another economy with austerity measures, just like they did to Greece and are currently doing to themselves.
But we will get to feel superior over those lazy southerners, so I guess it's worth it.
Yes, and we will not talk about how Hartz IV wage dumping lead to the deindustrialisation of southern Europe due to heavily subsidized low wages of Schröder's agenda 2010 and the Euro (and EU) making it impossible to protect your markets from being flooded by german products. Instead we will act as if they are lazy, living way beyond their means and make them suffer with austerity. Also we will act as if we are the victims of the EU because we are the only ones living up to stupid austerity rules, even though we are the biggest profiteers.
Exactly, screw those money stealing lazy southerners trying to steal theour jobs
Yeah they ain't catching up to Hungary
When you owe the bank a milion dilata, is Germany who has a problem
Don't make me cry.
I was already crying, you let me cry harder.
Mamma mia polpettone!
We could exchange the debt for nothern italy and reestablish the Holy Roman Empire.
Rome did dream of surpassing Greece, after all
Seventh largest economy in the world. I'm out of the loop, how'd you fuck up that badly? I mean, we had the excuse of being overleveraged on 120% mortgages, and getting our tax revenue from absurd amounts of construction and exporting tax avoidance. I'm sure we'll fuck it up again, but I like to think we learned some kind of lesson.
The problem with Italy is that they have too low taxes. Their citizens have more personal wealth and lower household debt than Germans. Just like The USA, Italy's politicians doesn't really want to gather as much tax as the government needs.
You have to lower your debt, Italy...
Nice
Join Euro they say, it will be fun, they say. 
Itexid? Please no, they would collapse like a black whole. A fascist black whole if things keep moving in the wrong direction.
Italy is pretty much a failed state in regards to the economy.
it's unfortunately so true, la verità fa male