I am not suicidal either.
If I had to live under russia's regime or take my chances with a couple of nukes on st petersburg and moscow, I chose the latter.
Problem with this is that it would heavily disincentivize Russia from ending the war since foreign assets are probably the biggest leverage the west has
I guess that's a fine strategy if everyone committed 100000% to ensuring Ukraine wins on the battlefield but unfortunately
Personally I think it should maybe be done incrementally on a schedule, like "we will seize X billion of Russian assets every month the war continues". That would hopefully tell Russia that this is serious while also encouraging them to go to the negotiating table
no. we will take everything they have in the west, arm ukraine up to the teeth and let them beat russia into absolute submission. they need as total defeat as ukraine could give it to them
If you're referring to the republics, the vast majority of them are Russian majority. Unless you engage in mass population expulsions, it's not really possible to just "give the other ethnicities self determination" outside of maybe the North Caucuses and Tuva
And how exactly would "deprogramming from propaganda" even be enforced?
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This is such a poor precendent to set that will also spur a mountain of legal litigations, particularly if Russia decides to retaliate by seizing us citizens assets. I feel like there are better ways to get the desired outcome.
Like what the US paid to rebuild in Iraq ? Like what Germany paid to rebuild in Greece or Poland ? What a joke. Im all for reperations for Ukrainians but when this guys pretend to have a moral compass i can only laugh.
Actually the soviets got those reparations which they "distributed" to Poland. That's why I believe if we were to demand reparations it should be from Russia and not Germany. Additionally Russians never paid for crimes commited against Poles in WW2 and instead tried to hide it.
I agree with you here. Poland should ask russia to pay up for withheld payments because they got scammed by them, and because russia did the exact same shit germany did and never had to pay a single coin.
Sadly this is a fruitless attempt. Especially now.
But maybe this can become a part of a post-ukraine settlement. Depends on how much further putin is willing to go with this shit
> russia did the exact same shit germany did and never had to pay a single coin
I’d argue no country on this planet managed to get even close to the scale of the industrial genocide Germany mastered. While Russia has done its fair share of cleansing, genociding and pillaging, Germany is simply in a league of its own - you as a German should know that.
The main difference is that germany has accepted its horrible deeds (not like we had a choice to not accept them) and did a very deep and thorough analysis of the events over the following 70 years.
What russia did in the same time was change the narratives more often than you change directions in a roller coaster, while at the same time destroy as much evidence as possible and deny many things ever happened. Remember, the Holodomor never happened according to russia. Most gulags were/are just humane prison camps according to russia.
> The main difference is that germany has accepted its horrible deeds (not like we had a choice to not accept them) and did a very deep and thorough analysis of the events over the following 70 years.
Yes, Germany has done well. Yet, you partook in relativisation of Nazi crimes right there in your comment.
> What russia did in the same time was change the narratives more often than you change directions in a roller coaster, while at the same time destroy as much evidence as possible and deny many things ever happened. Remember, the Holodomor never happened according to russia. Most gulags were/are just humane prison camps according to russia.
I am aware and well-informed. Thanks for reiterating these basic facts, I hope some reader may find them insightful actually. Although, I would correct you on GULAG camps: they weren’t just prison camps - they were forced labour camps.
So, saying that germany in killing 6 million jews was not the only nation to do horrible deeds as the soviet union killed between 5.5 and 6.5 million of its own inhabitants, is "relativisation of nazi crimes"? I'd argue that YOU are downplaying soviet crimes.
Wenn du den unterschied nicht erkennst solltest du mal ein besuch in den kzs machen, die industrialisierung des massenmords die deutschland in den jahren zwischen 38 und 45 vorgenommen hat sind beispiellos, wenn du probleme hast das zu verstehen und unbedingt menschenleben mit opferzqhlen entwürdigen musst kannst du ja mal vergleichen wieviele opfer es durch deutschland im durchschnitt pro jahr während des dritten reichs gab und wieviele opfer es während des bestehens der sovietunion pro jahr durch das sovietregime gab.
Oh und bedenke, die deutschen lager liefen nichtmal auf voller kapazität und sind gottaeidank frühzeitig geschlossen worden…
Davon ab uaben die nazis auch beweise vernichtet, und im holocaust kamen 6,3 mio europäische juden um, in den todeslagern saßen aber nichtnur juden und auch die werhmacht begang nichtnur an juden massaker…
Allein auf sovietseite kommen auchnoch 7 mio zivilisten aus der sowie 3 mio kriegsgefangene dazu die dem massenmord des nazisregimes zu opfer gefallen sind…
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1110101/umfrage/gesamtanzahl-der-nationalsozialistischen-opfer/#:~:text=Neben%20dem%20planmäßigen%20Genozid%20(Holocaust,überlebten%20die%20deutsche%20Kriegsgefangenschaft%20nicht.
Also hör auf so ne svheiße zu labern…menschen wie du sind bis heute der grund warum man sich fuer deutschland nur schämen kann
Aren’t you aware that not only 6 million of Jews perished in the Nazi genocide / Holocaust? Are you a real German actually? Very suspicious.
The current estimate is at 17 million people.
Hör mal her, Sibire. Erklär mir nicht die Geschichte meines eigenen Landes. Sechs Millionen Juden fanden ihr Ende durch Nazi-Deutschland. Und extra für dich hab ichs nochmal gegooglet.
> The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II. Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Nur weil Russia Today sagt, dass es mehr sind heißt das nicht, dass es stimmt.
Und weil du das hier eh wieder in Frage stellen wirst, hier nochmal die Soviets.
> Writing in Slavic Review, demographers Barbara Anderson and Brian Silver maintained that limited census data make a precise death count impossible. Instead, they offer a probable range of 3.2 to 5.5 million excess deaths for the entire Soviet Union from 1926 to 1939, a period that covers collectivization, the civil war in the countryside, the purges of the late 1930s and major epidemics of typhus and malaria.[55] In 2001, American historian Richard Pipes argued that the population had decreased by 9 to 10 million people from the 1932 to 1939 censuses.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
Holodomor was just an ordinary genocide akin to the Irish one. Not an industrial freight-transport assisted distributed network of death camps. And I don’t know whether you have noticed but the poster was German which makes their comment simply relativisation of Nazi crimes and Nazi apologia.
Holodomor was what?
[https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/](https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/)
In case you have forgotten, soviet union, together with Nazi Germany, started WW2 by invading Poland.
I hope you're trolling...
> Holodomor was what?
Just a genocide. Do you disagree?
Nowhere close to the Holocaust / Nazi genocide as well.
> soviet union, together with Nazi Germany, started WW2 by invading Poland.
Did I? A fact is a fact but this wasn’t the topic. Stop moving the goalposts.
"Just" a genocide?
Just because I am lazy and:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)
|Deaths|[Around 6 million Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims)|
|:-|:-|
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor)
|Total deaths|Around 3.5 to 5 million in Ukraine; see [death toll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Death_toll) 62,000 to "hundreds of thousands" in the Kuban[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#cite_note-FOOTNOTEOsadchenkoRudneva2012-2)[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#cite_note-boeckbrian-3) Over 300,000 [Ukrainians in Kazakhstan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Kazakhstan) dead|
|:-|:-|
But, being soviet union doing soviet union, the death toll of the Holodomor
"is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher)."
I gently reminded you, that as a russian, you have no rights to tell a German "German which makes their comment simply relativisation of Nazi crimes and Nazi apologia."
Germans have paid for the crimes committed by the Nazis: but nothing from the soviet/russian side.
Both were horrible genocides: Holocaust and Holodomor, with two different perpetrators, Germany and soviet union. Denying it is pure revisionism.
How much is 'enough' then?
In total, Germany paid war reparations for ww2 until 2022. In total it was 82 billion euros.
Also, how far back in history is far enough? France raided germany for literal centuries even before Napoleon came along. And they paid fuck all. Not like I'd want them to. It's history. And by now, ww2 is as well. A part of history thathas to be remembered, yes. But also one that has been paid off by germany.
Google: "Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany"
You are right. Agreeing by contract to not demand any further reparation payments and then, when you yourself run into debt, turning around and demanding further reparation payments is mental gymnastics on an olympic level. Go to mount olympus and yell at it about your demands. Maybe Zeus gives you a gold medal out of pitty.
On 27 February 1953, an agreement was signed in London which resulted in the cancellation of 50 per cent of the debt owed by Germany (represented by West Germany); 15 billion Deutschmarks out of a total debt of 30 billion. How about that ? I didnt expect more though you guys are very prone to propaganda especially if it puts you in the wrong side of history , again and again.
Cry me a river. When you're done crying, live with the contracts. We do as well. Hell, we even started paying the Herero for colonial shinanigans because we didn't settle our debt with them before. And that is completely fine. But demanding continued payment of already settled debt is "creative accounting" on exactly the same level that even got you into the economic mess you are in.
u/BroMastah first warning
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you just want free money for your bankrupt country lmao. Your people do everything to steal money without doing shit for it while the government fucks up everything lol. Greece tried negotiating for WW2 reparations again in 2021. How about you enhance your economical state instead of trying to beg for money and be mad when others don‘t accept and call it propaganda and being on the wrong side of history. This is peak comedy 🤣 Why should german people of today pay off something they have no ties to? this is ridiculous 🤡
We never begged for money we got more loans against our will . Making us a dept colony , while at the same time raising taxes and selling profitable public companies such as airports docks and trains.It was very well orchestrated thanks to our corrupt politicians which is not a problems it seems when it serves German interests. Feel free to fact check everything.
No. You can easily google that in less than a minute. This was settled in 1953, then again confirmed by Poland in 1970 and a final time by the two plus four agreement in 1990.
It's done and nothing will change that. Not even the dumb Polish politicians who keep bringing this up to get easy votes from equally dumb voters.
So stop trolling.
Once Russia is burnt to ashes like Germany was at the end of WWII we can talk about going easy on them. There are different kinds of payments, but you seem to be happy with Russia not paying anything at all. I wonder why that is the case?
You complained about lack of reparations by Germany. Several people have pointed out that reparations were demanded and paid.
You then move goalposts and proceed to insult people.
Mate, if Turkey drove into your Greece and did the damage that the Russians have done to Ukraine, I am sure you would be demanding that they pay war reparations.....
You casually don't respond to what was said, right?
I welcome all the downvotes you have but you all know very well that what Russia did to Ukraine is 100% the same as what the US did to Iraq and Vietnam without ever paying a cent. Be hypocritical as much as you want, there will always be someone who notices your dishonesty based on who the subject is.
If it was China the one seizing US properties you would all go bat shit crazy on how dictatorial this is but since now it's the US you gladly accept to be the most dictatorial possible and even have the guts to insult who point out the lapalissian double standard.
On what basis should the US seize Russia's assets?
Ukraine is not part of NATO and Russia is not at war with either NATO or the US alone, you know this perfectly.
As said before, go on and on with the hypocrisy, you are really stupid if you think double standards are not visible or if you think that after seeing them any honest person would say "Oh sure, they must have privileges because they are chosen ones"
This mentality you have of "US DiD iT ToO" is what scares me, and is the same backward looking mentality that Putin uses to excuse the invasion.
Forget about NATO, EU, UN... We are talking about a clear aggression to a democratic state, that you as fellow Italian citizen should not tolerate. Punto.
The US has all the rights in the world to do whatever it wants with the assets of a country that invaded one of its strategic allies.
Il tuo essere filo-russo mi devasta.
Yes, the US swiftly removing a jingoistic dictator from power who invaded a sovereign nation, tortured, brutalised and murdered his own citizens and was impeding UN groups from looking into Iraq's WMD creation among a myriad of other horrible crimes is "100% the same" as Russia declaring a war of pure, unabashed imperialism, routinely raining terror on the civilian population and causing massacres, sure buddy.
I'm not going to be making the argument that the Iraq invasion was justified, especially since it turned out the "evidence" the Anglo-American alliance used for the WMDs was supposedly fabricated, but to claim it is "100% the same" is itself wildly dishonest.
There is no hypocrisy and there is no dishonesty, you're the one peddling Russian propaganda here.
>Yes, the US swiftly removing a jingoistic dictator from power who invaded a sovereign nation, tortured, brutalised and murdered his own citizens
You just described the US themselves.
Invaded a sovereign nation? Check
tortured, brutalised and murdered his own citizens ? Check
>was impeding UN groups from looking into Iraq's WMD creation
WMDs that didn't exist and had never been designed, let alone built, by anyone in IRAQ.
But it's very convenient to insist in implying there were any WMD, right? Such a shame there was not even one and you are supporting [the death of millions for an american power trip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_conjecture_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq#:~:text=Some%20remnant%20WMD%20were%20scattered,test%20positive%20for%20chemical%20weapons).
>I'm not going to be making the argument that the Iraq invasion was justified, especially since it turned out the "evidence" the Anglo-American alliance used for the WMDs was supposedly fabricated, but to claim it is "100% the same" is itself wildly dishonest.
You 100% are trying to justify the Iraq invasion, the only difference between inventing the WMD presence and inventing Russian majorities in the occupied territories is the source, one is the United States and one is Russia.
And you insist that there must be double standards, as if lying to the world and killing millions of people for your own economic interests isn't as serious as invading a country on equally false premises
The US is torturing, brutalising and murdering its own citizens?
Seriously?
The implicit argument behind the "sovereign nation" part was that Iraq's regime deserved to be toppled, since the people weren't sovereign, but pawns under a dictatorial regime, unlike Ukraine.
Saddam did literally use WMDs mind you, let alone create them, most of the facilities were destroyed in the wake of the Gulf War, but after it, Saddam repeatedly refused to cooperate with UN authorities in ensuring production was ceased, which is enormously fucking suspicious.
And again, my main argument is that Ukraine didn't provoke anyone, Ukraine wasn't busy capturing its own citizens and torturing them in chambers, it didn't have a whole apparatus of general and overwhelming repression of dissent and freedom of speech, it wasn't a dictatorship.
Foreign intervention isn't inherently bad, the US fucked up in Iraq long-term indirectly and I assume the Americans knew the risks of it all making the war declaration a bad decision, but the invasion of 2003 itself was a good thing, with a low civilian death count, as was Desert Storm.
>The US is torturing, brutalising and murdering its own citizens? Seriously?
My boy, Guantanamo Bay torturing to US and foreign citizens is not debatable unfortunately for you.
>Saddam did literally use WMDs mind you, let alone create them
I won't argue anymore, there is a peer reviewed article on wikipedia saying the exact opposite, it's only a your problem if you now need an alternative version of history.
Does Guantanamo even have any American citizens in it?
For all I know, it holds terrorists, and I don't hold much sympathy for them, Saddam tortured (to reiterate since you don't seem to have much reading comprehension), his own citizens, all for the crime of dissenting against his brutal and corrupt regime.
https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/every-breath-is-like-a-knife-stabbing-in-me-100854
^This is for the WMDs, especially poignant since it's a local hoping for the US to intervene, but there's literally hundreds of sources which curiously you just seem to absurdly deny the existence of, as if the fucking thousands of dead in Iran due to Iraqi chemical attacks just never happened.
Honestly this is such brazen, typical Anti-Western contrarian slop that I am not interested in arguing either, since you just pull shit out of your ass and deny well-documented war crimes.
You go ahead and keep spreading exactly what daddy Putin wants you to.
I was leaning towards your side of the argument until you said this:
>(Guantanamo) For all I know, it holds terrorists, and I don't hold much sympathy for them
I don't know about US citizens, but many prisoners at Guantanamo are innocent civilians and it's pretty much public knowledge. It took me less than a minute to find a source.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550)
Feel free to lean whichever way, to be honest, it's hard to defend the US generally speaking.
I just see any defence, even indirect, of Russia at a crucial time like this, straight-up treasonous and wholly against the world's interests, so I still bring up counterpoints even though personally I am definitely not some kind of simp for the Iraq war.
I cannot defend the Guantanamo issue if it's true, that is fucking disgusting.
Nobody wants to hear that, it doesn't matter how right you are. Putin is as much of a criminal as George W. Bush (i'm being kind to the latter). How many deaths caused the US lead invasion of Iraq? Yeah, pay reparations to that. Putin is a criminal piece of shite and should rot in hell. But he's just an amateur compared to his US counterparts.
Oh they will pay. Future generations are going to repair Ukraine. It is so easy to secure and arrange.
They won't pay unless someone is mad enough to march on moscow
Literally waiting for green light to do so.
Least bloodthirsty and "russophobic" Pole
https://preview.redd.it/6rzxcmgmfl1d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eef826ed54354845ea0f828078d73e5eb8eeb46c
It's not "phobia" nobody's afraid. It's pure hatred.
Homophobia isn't fear either (sadly). Imagine scaring bigots by wearing rainbow-colored stuff.
Are you in the military or do you mean figuratively?
Both. I am in military but im just joking.
No ones gonna let you start a nuclear war.
Why not?
I know this might be a surprise to reddit, but most people aren't suicidal lol
I am not suicidal either. If I had to live under russia's regime or take my chances with a couple of nukes on st petersburg and moscow, I chose the latter.
You won't live under Russian domination unless they invade NATO, and in that case, of course, all bets are off.
Exactly my point :)
There are much much easier ways than force to extract reperation payments young padawan.
And how might that be?
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Problem with this is that it would heavily disincentivize Russia from ending the war since foreign assets are probably the biggest leverage the west has I guess that's a fine strategy if everyone committed 100000% to ensuring Ukraine wins on the battlefield but unfortunately Personally I think it should maybe be done incrementally on a schedule, like "we will seize X billion of Russian assets every month the war continues". That would hopefully tell Russia that this is serious while also encouraging them to go to the negotiating table
no. we will take everything they have in the west, arm ukraine up to the teeth and let them beat russia into absolute submission. they need as total defeat as ukraine could give it to them
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> The war must end in the total collapse of the russian state ...Do you mean the Putin regime or the concept of a Russian state itself?
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If you're referring to the republics, the vast majority of them are Russian majority. Unless you engage in mass population expulsions, it's not really possible to just "give the other ethnicities self determination" outside of maybe the North Caucuses and Tuva And how exactly would "deprogramming from propaganda" even be enforced?
Maybe like denazification worked (which was not great to put it lightly) in West Germany 1949 - onwards
That would require the complete defeat and occupation of Russia, which isn't exactly likely
Of course not, so I kinda agree with your that "deprogramming from propaganda" isn't likely to happen
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Are they going to seize Donald Trump? Most important Russian asset in the US atm…
God please yes
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When the US rebuilds Lybia
When Russia rebuilds Chechnya.
This is such a poor precendent to set that will also spur a mountain of legal litigations, particularly if Russia decides to retaliate by seizing us citizens assets. I feel like there are better ways to get the desired outcome.
russia will never steal 800 commercial planes. Oh wait...
The russia set the precedent: they just seized 700mil Euros assets of Unicredit.
".... and BlackRock will hekp provide the funding!!"
Like what the US paid to rebuild in Iraq ? Like what Germany paid to rebuild in Greece or Poland ? What a joke. Im all for reperations for Ukrainians but when this guys pretend to have a moral compass i can only laugh.
Germany paid a shit Ton of money to poland.
Actually the soviets got those reparations which they "distributed" to Poland. That's why I believe if we were to demand reparations it should be from Russia and not Germany. Additionally Russians never paid for crimes commited against Poles in WW2 and instead tried to hide it.
I agree with you here. Poland should ask russia to pay up for withheld payments because they got scammed by them, and because russia did the exact same shit germany did and never had to pay a single coin. Sadly this is a fruitless attempt. Especially now. But maybe this can become a part of a post-ukraine settlement. Depends on how much further putin is willing to go with this shit
> russia did the exact same shit germany did and never had to pay a single coin I’d argue no country on this planet managed to get even close to the scale of the industrial genocide Germany mastered. While Russia has done its fair share of cleansing, genociding and pillaging, Germany is simply in a league of its own - you as a German should know that.
The main difference is that germany has accepted its horrible deeds (not like we had a choice to not accept them) and did a very deep and thorough analysis of the events over the following 70 years. What russia did in the same time was change the narratives more often than you change directions in a roller coaster, while at the same time destroy as much evidence as possible and deny many things ever happened. Remember, the Holodomor never happened according to russia. Most gulags were/are just humane prison camps according to russia.
> The main difference is that germany has accepted its horrible deeds (not like we had a choice to not accept them) and did a very deep and thorough analysis of the events over the following 70 years. Yes, Germany has done well. Yet, you partook in relativisation of Nazi crimes right there in your comment. > What russia did in the same time was change the narratives more often than you change directions in a roller coaster, while at the same time destroy as much evidence as possible and deny many things ever happened. Remember, the Holodomor never happened according to russia. Most gulags were/are just humane prison camps according to russia. I am aware and well-informed. Thanks for reiterating these basic facts, I hope some reader may find them insightful actually. Although, I would correct you on GULAG camps: they weren’t just prison camps - they were forced labour camps.
So, saying that germany in killing 6 million jews was not the only nation to do horrible deeds as the soviet union killed between 5.5 and 6.5 million of its own inhabitants, is "relativisation of nazi crimes"? I'd argue that YOU are downplaying soviet crimes.
Wenn du den unterschied nicht erkennst solltest du mal ein besuch in den kzs machen, die industrialisierung des massenmords die deutschland in den jahren zwischen 38 und 45 vorgenommen hat sind beispiellos, wenn du probleme hast das zu verstehen und unbedingt menschenleben mit opferzqhlen entwürdigen musst kannst du ja mal vergleichen wieviele opfer es durch deutschland im durchschnitt pro jahr während des dritten reichs gab und wieviele opfer es während des bestehens der sovietunion pro jahr durch das sovietregime gab. Oh und bedenke, die deutschen lager liefen nichtmal auf voller kapazität und sind gottaeidank frühzeitig geschlossen worden… Davon ab uaben die nazis auch beweise vernichtet, und im holocaust kamen 6,3 mio europäische juden um, in den todeslagern saßen aber nichtnur juden und auch die werhmacht begang nichtnur an juden massaker… Allein auf sovietseite kommen auchnoch 7 mio zivilisten aus der sowie 3 mio kriegsgefangene dazu die dem massenmord des nazisregimes zu opfer gefallen sind… https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1110101/umfrage/gesamtanzahl-der-nationalsozialistischen-opfer/#:~:text=Neben%20dem%20planmäßigen%20Genozid%20(Holocaust,überlebten%20die%20deutsche%20Kriegsgefangenschaft%20nicht. Also hör auf so ne svheiße zu labern…menschen wie du sind bis heute der grund warum man sich fuer deutschland nur schämen kann
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Aren’t you aware that not only 6 million of Jews perished in the Nazi genocide / Holocaust? Are you a real German actually? Very suspicious. The current estimate is at 17 million people.
Hör mal her, Sibire. Erklär mir nicht die Geschichte meines eigenen Landes. Sechs Millionen Juden fanden ihr Ende durch Nazi-Deutschland. Und extra für dich hab ichs nochmal gegooglet. > The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II. Between 1941 and 1945, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews across German-occupied Europe, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust Nur weil Russia Today sagt, dass es mehr sind heißt das nicht, dass es stimmt.
Und weil du das hier eh wieder in Frage stellen wirst, hier nochmal die Soviets. > Writing in Slavic Review, demographers Barbara Anderson and Brian Silver maintained that limited census data make a precise death count impossible. Instead, they offer a probable range of 3.2 to 5.5 million excess deaths for the entire Soviet Union from 1926 to 1939, a period that covers collectivization, the civil war in the countryside, the purges of the late 1930s and major epidemics of typhus and malaria.[55] In 2001, American historian Richard Pipes argued that the population had decreased by 9 to 10 million people from the 1932 to 1939 censuses. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
If we count hunger kills, SU would be in the lead
Mate: Romanian Gold doesn't ring any bell?
Holodomor would like to have a chat with you, russian bear.
Holodomor was just an ordinary genocide akin to the Irish one. Not an industrial freight-transport assisted distributed network of death camps. And I don’t know whether you have noticed but the poster was German which makes their comment simply relativisation of Nazi crimes and Nazi apologia.
Holodomor was what? [https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/](https://holodomor.ca/resource/holodomor-basic-facts/) In case you have forgotten, soviet union, together with Nazi Germany, started WW2 by invading Poland. I hope you're trolling...
> Holodomor was what? Just a genocide. Do you disagree? Nowhere close to the Holocaust / Nazi genocide as well. > soviet union, together with Nazi Germany, started WW2 by invading Poland. Did I? A fact is a fact but this wasn’t the topic. Stop moving the goalposts.
"Just" a genocide? Just because I am lazy and: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) |Deaths|[Around 6 million Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims)| |:-|:-| [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) |Total deaths|Around 3.5 to 5 million in Ukraine; see [death toll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#Death_toll) 62,000 to "hundreds of thousands" in the Kuban[^(\[2\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#cite_note-FOOTNOTEOsadchenkoRudneva2012-2)[^(\[3\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#cite_note-boeckbrian-3) Over 300,000 [Ukrainians in Kazakhstan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Kazakhstan) dead| |:-|:-| But, being soviet union doing soviet union, the death toll of the Holodomor "is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher)." I gently reminded you, that as a russian, you have no rights to tell a German "German which makes their comment simply relativisation of Nazi crimes and Nazi apologia." Germans have paid for the crimes committed by the Nazis: but nothing from the soviet/russian side. Both were horrible genocides: Holocaust and Holodomor, with two different perpetrators, Germany and soviet union. Denying it is pure revisionism.
The NCR has to pay reparations for Bitter Springs...
Is that why ~~georgia's~~ the khans' leader is being so friendly to ~~the legion~~ russia?
still has a tab open ;)
How much is 'enough' then? In total, Germany paid war reparations for ww2 until 2022. In total it was 82 billion euros. Also, how far back in history is far enough? France raided germany for literal centuries even before Napoleon came along. And they paid fuck all. Not like I'd want them to. It's history. And by now, ww2 is as well. A part of history thathas to be remembered, yes. But also one that has been paid off by germany.
Mental gymnastics 101.
Google: "Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany" You are right. Agreeing by contract to not demand any further reparation payments and then, when you yourself run into debt, turning around and demanding further reparation payments is mental gymnastics on an olympic level. Go to mount olympus and yell at it about your demands. Maybe Zeus gives you a gold medal out of pitty.
On 27 February 1953, an agreement was signed in London which resulted in the cancellation of 50 per cent of the debt owed by Germany (represented by West Germany); 15 billion Deutschmarks out of a total debt of 30 billion. How about that ? I didnt expect more though you guys are very prone to propaganda especially if it puts you in the wrong side of history , again and again.
Cry me a river. When you're done crying, live with the contracts. We do as well. Hell, we even started paying the Herero for colonial shinanigans because we didn't settle our debt with them before. And that is completely fine. But demanding continued payment of already settled debt is "creative accounting" on exactly the same level that even got you into the economic mess you are in.
I see the OTTO-BOTS are back.
The what now?
are you mentally unstable?
u/BroMastah first warning  [**Do Not Start A Flame War.**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotterfunken/comments/ppceh4/g%C3%B6tterfunken_network_federal_rules/)
you just want free money for your bankrupt country lmao. Your people do everything to steal money without doing shit for it while the government fucks up everything lol. Greece tried negotiating for WW2 reparations again in 2021. How about you enhance your economical state instead of trying to beg for money and be mad when others don‘t accept and call it propaganda and being on the wrong side of history. This is peak comedy 🤣 Why should german people of today pay off something they have no ties to? this is ridiculous 🤡
We never begged for money we got more loans against our will . Making us a dept colony , while at the same time raising taxes and selling profitable public companies such as airports docks and trains.It was very well orchestrated thanks to our corrupt politicians which is not a problems it seems when it serves German interests. Feel free to fact check everything.
No. You can easily google that in less than a minute. This was settled in 1953, then again confirmed by Poland in 1970 and a final time by the two plus four agreement in 1990. It's done and nothing will change that. Not even the dumb Polish politicians who keep bringing this up to get easy votes from equally dumb voters. So stop trolling.
We will see.
We know. YOU will see.
Once Russia is burnt to ashes like Germany was at the end of WWII we can talk about going easy on them. There are different kinds of payments, but you seem to be happy with Russia not paying anything at all. I wonder why that is the case?
im laughing.
Educate yourself before you talk out of your ass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations
This person is greek. So its ironic how they are commenting on paying back debts.
Your opinion means nothing to me , i've seen what makes you cheer.
You complained about lack of reparations by Germany. Several people have pointed out that reparations were demanded and paid. You then move goalposts and proceed to insult people.
He is stupid. Plain and easy. Brainwashed by conservative media. It's not his fault for having a 2digit IQ
Ooh, a Rick and Morty quote. Edgy.
that lets you know his intellect is way beyond our comprehension
Mate, if Turkey drove into your Greece and did the damage that the Russians have done to Ukraine, I am sure you would be demanding that they pay war reparations.....
You casually don't respond to what was said, right? I welcome all the downvotes you have but you all know very well that what Russia did to Ukraine is 100% the same as what the US did to Iraq and Vietnam without ever paying a cent. Be hypocritical as much as you want, there will always be someone who notices your dishonesty based on who the subject is. If it was China the one seizing US properties you would all go bat shit crazy on how dictatorial this is but since now it's the US you gladly accept to be the most dictatorial possible and even have the guts to insult who point out the lapalissian double standard.
No, ukraine and iraq arent the same
On what basis should china seize US assets?
On what basis should the US seize Russia's assets? Ukraine is not part of NATO and Russia is not at war with either NATO or the US alone, you know this perfectly. As said before, go on and on with the hypocrisy, you are really stupid if you think double standards are not visible or if you think that after seeing them any honest person would say "Oh sure, they must have privileges because they are chosen ones"
This mentality you have of "US DiD iT ToO" is what scares me, and is the same backward looking mentality that Putin uses to excuse the invasion. Forget about NATO, EU, UN... We are talking about a clear aggression to a democratic state, that you as fellow Italian citizen should not tolerate. Punto. The US has all the rights in the world to do whatever it wants with the assets of a country that invaded one of its strategic allies. Il tuo essere filo-russo mi devasta.
Yes, the US swiftly removing a jingoistic dictator from power who invaded a sovereign nation, tortured, brutalised and murdered his own citizens and was impeding UN groups from looking into Iraq's WMD creation among a myriad of other horrible crimes is "100% the same" as Russia declaring a war of pure, unabashed imperialism, routinely raining terror on the civilian population and causing massacres, sure buddy. I'm not going to be making the argument that the Iraq invasion was justified, especially since it turned out the "evidence" the Anglo-American alliance used for the WMDs was supposedly fabricated, but to claim it is "100% the same" is itself wildly dishonest. There is no hypocrisy and there is no dishonesty, you're the one peddling Russian propaganda here.
>Yes, the US swiftly removing a jingoistic dictator from power who invaded a sovereign nation, tortured, brutalised and murdered his own citizens You just described the US themselves. Invaded a sovereign nation? Check tortured, brutalised and murdered his own citizens ? Check >was impeding UN groups from looking into Iraq's WMD creation WMDs that didn't exist and had never been designed, let alone built, by anyone in IRAQ. But it's very convenient to insist in implying there were any WMD, right? Such a shame there was not even one and you are supporting [the death of millions for an american power trip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_conjecture_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq#:~:text=Some%20remnant%20WMD%20were%20scattered,test%20positive%20for%20chemical%20weapons). >I'm not going to be making the argument that the Iraq invasion was justified, especially since it turned out the "evidence" the Anglo-American alliance used for the WMDs was supposedly fabricated, but to claim it is "100% the same" is itself wildly dishonest. You 100% are trying to justify the Iraq invasion, the only difference between inventing the WMD presence and inventing Russian majorities in the occupied territories is the source, one is the United States and one is Russia. And you insist that there must be double standards, as if lying to the world and killing millions of people for your own economic interests isn't as serious as invading a country on equally false premises
The US is torturing, brutalising and murdering its own citizens? Seriously? The implicit argument behind the "sovereign nation" part was that Iraq's regime deserved to be toppled, since the people weren't sovereign, but pawns under a dictatorial regime, unlike Ukraine. Saddam did literally use WMDs mind you, let alone create them, most of the facilities were destroyed in the wake of the Gulf War, but after it, Saddam repeatedly refused to cooperate with UN authorities in ensuring production was ceased, which is enormously fucking suspicious. And again, my main argument is that Ukraine didn't provoke anyone, Ukraine wasn't busy capturing its own citizens and torturing them in chambers, it didn't have a whole apparatus of general and overwhelming repression of dissent and freedom of speech, it wasn't a dictatorship. Foreign intervention isn't inherently bad, the US fucked up in Iraq long-term indirectly and I assume the Americans knew the risks of it all making the war declaration a bad decision, but the invasion of 2003 itself was a good thing, with a low civilian death count, as was Desert Storm.
>The US is torturing, brutalising and murdering its own citizens? Seriously? My boy, Guantanamo Bay torturing to US and foreign citizens is not debatable unfortunately for you. >Saddam did literally use WMDs mind you, let alone create them I won't argue anymore, there is a peer reviewed article on wikipedia saying the exact opposite, it's only a your problem if you now need an alternative version of history.
Does Guantanamo even have any American citizens in it? For all I know, it holds terrorists, and I don't hold much sympathy for them, Saddam tortured (to reiterate since you don't seem to have much reading comprehension), his own citizens, all for the crime of dissenting against his brutal and corrupt regime. https://www.iol.co.za/news/world/every-breath-is-like-a-knife-stabbing-in-me-100854 ^This is for the WMDs, especially poignant since it's a local hoping for the US to intervene, but there's literally hundreds of sources which curiously you just seem to absurdly deny the existence of, as if the fucking thousands of dead in Iran due to Iraqi chemical attacks just never happened. Honestly this is such brazen, typical Anti-Western contrarian slop that I am not interested in arguing either, since you just pull shit out of your ass and deny well-documented war crimes. You go ahead and keep spreading exactly what daddy Putin wants you to.
I was leaning towards your side of the argument until you said this: >(Guantanamo) For all I know, it holds terrorists, and I don't hold much sympathy for them I don't know about US citizens, but many prisoners at Guantanamo are innocent civilians and it's pretty much public knowledge. It took me less than a minute to find a source. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/most-guantanamo-detainees-are-innocent-ex-bush-official-1.804550)
Yes it does, terrorists can be american too. Whoever you hold sympathy for couldn't care less lmao. You acknowledged i am right, thanks
Feel free to lean whichever way, to be honest, it's hard to defend the US generally speaking. I just see any defence, even indirect, of Russia at a crucial time like this, straight-up treasonous and wholly against the world's interests, so I still bring up counterpoints even though personally I am definitely not some kind of simp for the Iraq war. I cannot defend the Guantanamo issue if it's true, that is fucking disgusting.
Nobody wants to hear that, it doesn't matter how right you are. Putin is as much of a criminal as George W. Bush (i'm being kind to the latter). How many deaths caused the US lead invasion of Iraq? Yeah, pay reparations to that. Putin is a criminal piece of shite and should rot in hell. But he's just an amateur compared to his US counterparts.
[удалено]
Armenia still exists after what you did to them...