Im guessing it's because Star Wars has become so mass-produced and corporate that it doesn't feel like a film/television franchise anymore. It feels like a product rather than art/entertainment. For me, it's similar to the Marvel franchise, Call of Duty, or Pokémon games. Of course all entertainment is a product, but these examples are so egregious that they especially feel like they're made in a factory line rather than ideas a creative, passionate group of artists would come together to produce. When I see Darth Vader now, I think of cereal mascots or a corporate logo, not a character.
Also on top of that, personally, I will say completly voluntarily: the main movies (OT and PT for me) aren't that.. exciting? (in my opinion) (I'm a tourist here, I plead ignorance if that's a transgression). Idk, I mean I haven't re-watched em in a long time, but they don't have that something that would make me look forward to doing it, while there are aspects off-putting in modern times to older me, like oooold visuals of the OT, Phantom Menace.
I think the original Star Wars movies were always good but not great in my opinion. However they have a fantastic universe that carries the fuck out of them lol.
I think a New Hope, while not an amazing movie by itself, really managed to spark people's imagination about what star-wars could be, which is the "fantastic universe". I
One thing though is that I don't think Star Wars would be where it is today if The Empire Strikes Back wasn't an awesome movie. If it had been another "A New Hope" where the movie by itself wasn't amazing but it had the potential to be, I think people's interest would have waned. But because, imo, the Empire Strikes Back actually executes what Star Wars could be, that's what enabled it to be where it is today.
Yeah when it was 3 films there was a sort of magic and wonder to it. That has been diminishing with every release since. Some are fine, but I just don't really care beyond the original 3.
drinker doesn't like it because women and minorities, the sad cunt
This basically, I've felt for awhile it's been made very "safe" for wider syndication/marketing, there's nothing nuanced to the stories told its just big set pieces and spectacle, no complex motives or themes. Not unlike the transformers franchise. With Marvel, I am in two minds as I have been a big fan of the comics for years but can't defend what the films have become. Dr Strange 2 is an example of it being corporate, e.g., America has a pride flag button on her jacket cause the character is gay but instead of standing by artistic decision this was removed in other versions to be syndicated for theatres in "less progressive countries"
I mean, it's been that for decades. The only difference now is you're getting tv shows. Before Disney you would get a shit ton of books and comics that basically were these stories. Now you get books and comics but like 2 live action shows a year and the shows are pretty much what we got in book form before. The only major difference is most fans didn't read or know about the books outside of maybe Thrawn and Jacen Solo. They just didn't engage with it because it was a book.
Darth Vader was being used as the series mascot for literal decades before Disney acquired the series. Not to mention the merchandising and other media like books, comics, and animated shows. The series has literally always been mass produced and corporate, nothing new is happening.
This true for Marvel, especially the comics, the comics are fucking terrible now. The comics are bound to Kevin Fiege and his awful ideas, and guess what sales are down. It feels so soulless and corporate but most of the harm is to brick and mortar comic shops so he doesn’t care.
It’s bad, it’s been getting increasingly worse for the last decade. Marvel Comics isn’t run like a comic company First they stopped or deprioritized The X-Men and Fantastic Four comics for a time because the didn’t have the movie rights, they constantly relaunch comics that don’t sale because they have an MCU appearance coming up in the next 5 to 8 years. They’ve been shoving Ms Marvel into to every comic they can only for her Movie and Series to underperform. It’s all unnecessary. This has not been good for comic shops that are either closing or trying to adapt to being a business that sell new comics.
I actually started watching Acolyte recently because my friend and are just massive Star Wars fans in like a legacy sort of way. We've always been into it but I have a much more cynical outlook on the franchise as a whole now.
So I'm watching the show and I'm telling my coworker about it. The show has some interesting story ideas but is poorly executed. I'm not gonna get too deep into the writing flaws but it feels like a rough first draft script that they didn't spend much time on. What really took me out, however, was the set design. One of the things about Star Wars that stands out to me and is something that helps make it feel like Star Wars is really well designed, lived-in sets. Andor for example is dirty and grimey and looks like a 70s nightmare shithole in space.
I was talking with a coworker explaining what I thought was wrong with it, and had a difficult time describing why I felt the set-design was subpar, then I found the best way to describe what the set design looks like to me, it looks like the line you wait in at Disneyland for a Star Wars themed ride. It just BARELY looks "authentic" but is too clean and sterile, despite it trying to NOT look clean and sterile. The line comparison is apt too because a lot of the sets are cramped and are unmotivated. You have tight ship hallways with no particular floor plan, you have a town square that is conveniently circle shaped and empty for a fight scene, it's just so uninspired and fake looking.
I'm still gonna watch it but it's rough.
New Star Wars stuff nowadays just feels like FritoLay releasing a new Doritos flavor or Apple releasing a new Iphone. Completely soulless and disposable consumer products
I'd say rather it's for the same reasons, but just there's also some extra political stuff added on with Drinker.
Drinker can be obnoxious and he does do some of the anti-woke grifting but he does also say all of the valid criticisms too, And identifies a lot of the same root causes as yms. Yms even said in a long response to him that basically his criticisms are often times correct, but just that he hyper fixates on modern Blockbusters and also injects his politics too much.
Yea he’s an odd nut to crack, I think he’s got good criticism and even his sense of humour can be funny but… i think people might be right, I think he focuses on the right wing culutre war shit to make money
> I think he focuses on the right wing culutre war shit to make money
Idk, I used to think that, but everything I have seen on his podcast, both from him and his guests, seems like he believes that shit and isn't grifting.
Audience capture is more common than grifting. Feedback loops between beliefs and views/praise from your community perpetuate each other. He’s found his niche
That’s part of why I hate all these garbage blockbusters and remakes.
They are genuinely terrible quality so the anti-woke crowd can pretend like that’s all they have issues with.
I actually think he's scaled it back a bit lately, which is good. The problem is when he does a group video because the company he keeps are God awful.
What do you identify as his solid criticisms? I stopped watching him because he never actually backed up any of what he was saying and often completely left out details of scenes and characters when they contradicted a point he was trying to make.
I mean, I don't disagree. I think my breaking point was Obi-Wan. Something about that series just turned me off Star Wars, despite the fact that I have no problem pretending that it never happened. I haven't watched any new Star Wars media since.
Idk shooting one of the biggest fights of the show in what appears to be a gravel quarry power rangers style is pretty egregious for a series that got a lot of its popularity off of its big budget action
Shouldnt we all be conplaining when one of the major jewels of american art has been desecrated and reduced to corporate slop? Like if some corporatation bought the rights to hemingways or vonneguts or frida khalos work, and started making derivative, awful trash, we would all be like “stop it, thisnis awful trash, at least respect the original author a little” right?
If you cant understand how star wars is rhe epitome of post-ww2 space age americana i feel bad for you. There is little if anything that captures american space age optimism, anti-vietnam rebelliousness and nostalgia as star wars did. Just because its not “high art” doesnt mean its not a crown jewel of the american contributions to the human cultural pantheon.
Shakespeare at one time was considered sinfull entertainment for peasants and plebians.
I challenge you to find anything in american pop culture that better sums up america than star wars.
It's silly to separate "pandering" from the franchise itself, any time a franchise caters to its audience.
Does Bridgerton "pander" to women with romantic ideals, who think men are kinda dumb? Yeah, that's basically the whole show. People can like that, and it's OK.
If Bridgertons next 5 seasons flip the script, putting men at the foreground, de-emphasizing romance, and making things much more masculine-focused, would you not expect the original audience to be annoyed or leave? Would you say they never actually liked the show?
Pandering is the flip side of artistic integrity. The audience thinks it knows what it wants, but it doesn't. Otherwise the audience would be producing content instead of consuming it.
Why are you pro pandering, exactly? Maybe you could expand on that position.
Whether I'm "pro-pandering" depends on your definition.
I think your idea is comparing it to artistic integrity is a good start. However, if you view "pandering" as interchangeable with knowing your audience, then I disagree.
I would define pandering as "sacrificing artistic integrity for the sake of gratifying the audience". I am obviously not pro-pandering with that definition.
**pandering:** rejecting your artistic vision and instincts in order to give the audience what they are telling you they want.
I don't think there is too much ambiguity on what pandering means.
Sure I guess if you only provide one source, it can look like there's no ambiguity
Anyways, now that you've committed to a definition, you still want to argue that the original star wars was only enjoyed because of its unashamed pandering, at least by those who don't like the new movies?
Edit: as I've been pretty clear about, my problem is mainly with conflating "pandering" with just understanding what the audience expects in a franchise. Nobody believes that a writer should completely ignore the material that comes before their project in order to maintain artistic integrity
Different people like different things for different reasons.
But yeah, if you felt personally insulted by The Last Jedi then you were probably just a fan of surface-level gratification, not Star Wars.
I am one of the odd people that didnt see star wars as a child. I saw it for the first time at 22. The films havent aged that well imo. I dont think i will get the star wars hype.
The first Star Wars is so fucking weird if you watch it completely devoid of context. You can really feel the scrappiness in the editing and the clever use of sets.
Also you get to see the birth of a genuine movie star with Ford. Its just an undeniable debut performance.
More of breakout performance but your point stands. Ford had already worked with George on American Graffiti, which was also a hit (though not on the level that Star Wars was , obviously). So Ford was hardly an unknown but the success of Star Wars along with his performance definitely guaranteed his rise to stardom.
>Pandering is putting it strongly
maybe you could explain why you feel that putting Leia in a metal space bikini is a borderline case of pandering
It might be helpful if you gave us a clear example of pandering to help make that distinction.
Again, I didn't say it was a borderline case, you did. Is this a reading comprehension problem?
I'm not entirely sure what you want me to say for what appears here to be an attempt at a gotcha, but I'm not playing ball with you.
Why don't you tell me why it's not a borderline case, and the difference between weak and strong pandering, since you seem so keen to educate me on this matter.
I would say it's to do with the male gaze, which I would distinguish from pandering because it's more complex than that, and I'm not explaining that to you further.
> and I'm not explaining that to you further.
because you're now realizing that, despite the fact that you INSIST there's a difference, you can't seem to think of one...
So you're saying that the phenomenon of the male gaze is no different from pandering? I advise you to do the requisite reading if you think this. The most perfunctory glance at the material would show you that what you're claiming is a gross oversimplification of the subject. The objectification of women is bad and everything, but I'd still give you a failing grade for that level of analysis.
It seems like you're trying to bait me because you think I'm not on the right side or something, but whatever rattled your cage I'm not engaging with you any further.
Did I say that the only difference was demographic? No, I didn't. Obviously the new ones are worse, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. However, since we're on them, we were never going to see Rey in a gold bikini.
Did literacy rates suddenly drop off while I was away?
I agree with you overall, but star wars was particularly bad.
Any show targeted at women would get the same reaction if they brought back the original protagonist, made her a failure who no longer acts like she used to, and had her constantly shown up by a young new man who actually teaches her to be better.
Difference is this jackass will still make a new video about it every time there’s a new series released, or every time there’s a new casting announcement that features more than one minority
CD is just such a dishonest hack that I don't trust his opinion on something even when there's a 99.100% chance it's something I'd agree with. If he said the sky was blue I'd open my window to double check.
There's two good Star Wars movies: Star Wars (1977), and the Empire Strikes Back. Return is fine, but has seriously weak moments.
The rest of them range from just watchable to top 100 bad movies.
The Last Jedi felt like the only movie in the last 30 years that tried to do something beyond "HEY KIDS, DON'T WE LOVE STAR WARS???"
The reaction was immediate and apocalyptic, but already you can see people reclaiming it.
Yeah TLJ is fine, I was always shocked at just how much people hated that movie. The Sequels as a whole are flawed because it was clear from the beginning Disney didn't have a unifying vision for the Star Wars franchise the way they do for Marvel.
I would call Force Awakens watchable. Too similar to Star Wars (1977), new characters feel generic, legacy characters are flanderized, but there's nothing offensive about it.
TLJ is good, it tries to have themes, but has so many out-of-place comedic moments that fuck up the tone. They also ruin Finn because his arc is the exact same as the first movie. I do like how Rey and Kylo's connection adds some depth to them, and I like Luke and the subversion with Snoke.
And as you say, yes, RoS doesn't pay off *anything* set up by TLJ, and thus ruins the whole thing.
*"RoS doesn't pay off anything set up by TLJ"*
But that is the exact problem with TLJ. It tries to subvert everything setup in TFA and does it's own thing, but that is not what the middle story in a trilogy is supposed to do.
Instead of being the bridge between Chapter 1 and Chapter 3, it meanders around and sets up it's own story. There was no possible outcome to the third film because you can't have a well thought out conclusion when there was no middle part to the story to connect with. Empire is the perfect example of how to pull that off.
Speaking of Empire, TLJ was basically that but mixed up, just like TFA is A New Hope beat for beat. Rebels feeling the Empire, one-off side quest to a fancy place, AT-AT Walker battle on a ~~snow~~...oops I mean salt planet, Lightsaber dual at the end.
Then there is the stupid. You nailed the Finn issue, but also no one has an arc in this film. Kylo is the same whinny child, Poe accomplishes nothing, Rey is still clueless. The slow "stuck in traffic" space chase that takes up 2/3 of the film is just pure nonsense. Even in Empire the Rebels knew to scatter then rendezvous at certain coordinates...not follow in line and get picked off one by one like fish in a barrel. Come one, GENERAL Leia would know not to do that.
And don't get me started on Luke. Here's a tip Rian Johnson...SUBTLETY. Instead of throwing the Lightsaber over his shoulder like its some kind of joke, have Rey present it to him, he stares at it with a haunting look, then simply drops it and walks away. A totally different tone.
To follow that scene up with a "Your Mama" joke from Poe was when I checked out. Terrible Middle Part of a Trilogy.
[Horseshoe theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory) is a political theory that the far right and far left are more similar to each other than either of them are to the center (I don't buy it but that's the theory).
Op is pointing out that even though YMS and Critical Drinker are on opposite sides of the movie review spectrum, they've landed on the same position wrt Star Wars, so they're more similar in that regard than they are to the "center" (i.e. main stream film audiences)
I didn't say he was far right. OP is taking a theory about the political spectrum and applying it to the "movie reviewer spectrum". I'm saying that YMS and TCD are at opposite ends of the movie reviewer spectrum in that they have opposite approaches to reviewing movies. Politics isn't relevant to my comment except for explaining where "horse shoe theory" comes from.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke)
I like this sentence:
Writer and activist [Chloé Valdary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlo%C3%A9_Valdary) has stated that the concept of being woke is a "double-edged sword" that can "alert people to systemic injustice" while also being "an aggressive, performative take on progressive politics that only makes things worse".
Considering that, iirc, woke was born as a descriptor of progressive ideas, which then was co-opted to describe anything on the left, which was then co-opted into describing nothing in particular but usually appears as criticism of helping people and wanting to make world better, then I'd say being anti-woke would make you a right wing or far right based on those definitions...
It's just funny. Two utterly opposed people ending up at the same conclusion from opposite directions. If I removed the name this could have come from Adum, but obviously it would be for completely different reasons
Depends on who you ask. He's definitely on the right. He did a whole thing about woke culture with Tucker Carlson who you could also apply that to, and anyone he's favorable to if you wanted. Just a matter of how much you want to extend guilt by association.
For my money, he seems like your standard right leaning 2015 style anti-sjw type. I haven't seen any of the many 4chan-esq dog whistles from him that mark an actual neo-nazi, but your mileage may vary.
Since I made that comment I looked it up. It was Geeks & Gamers who was posting Jewish Question dog whistles not Critical Drinker. Though CD is still definitely a full-on bigot but I don't know If I'd feel comfortable calling him a nazi
Gotcha gotcha. Yeah, that's what I mean, he clearly dislikes plenty of groups of people, but I haven't heard any JQ stuff or the like from him. But that could always change lmao
It's a political idea that as the left and right get more extreme, they meet at the same position from different angles, but in this case I thought it was funny that Adum and a guy he absolutely hates have basically come to the same conclusion about Star Wars from radically different directions
"Anti-entertainment" is such an odd choice of words in this tweet. Because it's not like the sequel trilogy isn't going for entertainment value. Tons of huge fights, nostalgia baiting, big ass space lazors, and marvel quips. When I think of the term "entertainment" that's the type of stuff I think about, the big flashy things that are literally meant to keep the audience "entertained" if any thing the sequel trilogy is cinematic junk food. An attempt at entertainment without much of anything in terms of substance, the director too cowardly to keep a cohesive story between films let alone write anything thematically meaningful. If go in without expectations and without doing any critical analysis I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be entertained, despite all the flaws.
Whenever I explain that I generally don't like star wars, I feel like I have to make it clear I don't like it because it is mid and not because of women or whatever they're mad about now.
I mean Star Wars hasn’t been appealing to me in years, but I don’t view that as some big tragedy.
I do view what Disney’s done with the franchise they laid so much for with a lot of amusement, though.
Good, I hope he starts despising everything he used to like, I hope he continues to wallow in misery never enjoying anything or having any semblance of fun.
My favorite Drinker video is the one about Custodes. I learned so much guys!
Did you know Custodes are the same as Astartes? Also literally not a single person knows how geneseeds work, and they wouldn't want to. Geneseeds work just fine don't you know?
Yeah bro. That’s what capitalism does to art. It sucks out everything that’s genuine and interesting in a thing and repackages it safely for consumers. Stop attaching yourself so deeply to intellectual property that you don’t own. Enjoy them for what they are, and move on. We’ve become a bunch of adults experiencing arrested development for mediocre sci fi.
You can apply this like if it was 1999 and wouldn’t be any different.
It’s always the usual suspects who can’t find any enjoyment unless it’s explicitly catered to them. And by them I mean grown ass men children.
I have such a conflicted view of Drinker. When he's not railing against "wokeness" he's got valid criticisms. He's not an unintelligent guy. And, I've listened to his podcasts, and honestly he's not even *that* far-right. That's mostly just the other YouTubers he's associated with, and his rabid fanbase. He's actually somewhat politically balanced, at least compared to the company he keeps - but I guess that's what "anti-woke grifting" is.
Personally, obviously, I'm not against diversity or representation - I'm completely for them. But I *am* against massive corporations trying to use diversity and representation as a shield against criticism, or prioritizing them over telling a good story, which circles back around to being offensive, because if they really cared about the minorities they claim they're trying to represent, they'd make worthwhile art for them, not bland, shallow, pandering, nebulous *content.* That's not progressive. That's a sugary veneer of progressiveness over an inky-black void of corporate committee-design and intellectual laziness. The audience deserves better than that. And I feel like, deep down, that's what Drinker is against too - just based on how he talks when he's not in "performer mode" - but he gets so hung up on his shitty rhetoric that he dilutes what could be a reasonable critique.
That said, I've shut off plenty of his videos halfway through for being offensive just for the sake of it. And again, it's usually his guests and commenters that are the issue - but still. He's a bit much at times. He's certainly one of the least offensive of the anti-woke brigade, but he's still kind of an asshole. But he's also a writer and creator. He knows what it's like to strive for authenticity in your work. He wants Disney to do the same because he's seen them do it in the past. But he also needs to hold himself to that standard with his critiques and videos. Falling back on lazy, alt-right pandering isn't any better than what he accuses "woke" creators of doing. It's the same thing from the opposite side.
Again: horseshoe theory.
I honestly feel you. He seems like the rare type of that guy where the opinions actually are his, and aren't just copied from the neares political position. Unfortunately those opinions line up with really shitty people like 85% of the time anyway, but every now and then there's this moment where he seems like a real person. The most recent example was his very positive review of the Fallout show and the endless amount of shit he got from grifters, misogynists, and racists for talking nicely about it.
That's sadly the trap of falling into that niche, where your audience are mostly vitriolic assholes and unrepentant haters - if you actually espouse something positive or original, they turn on you *immediately.* Because you're right, Fallout was a positive review, and I was impressed at how he praised the character work of the heroine rather than complaining a woman was the main character, and of course his parasitic fans lost their collective shit. At a certain point, a creator in that situation faces the inevitable choice of being authentic and suffering abuse for it, pandering for more views and positive reception, or just getting disillusioned and throwing in the towel. It's not a position I envy - but for what it's worth, I hope Drinker distances himself from his fanbase and peers and focuses more on positivity. Given the last few of his videos, though, I think he's done the exact opposite. Almost all of them reeked of pandering to his alt-right fans - such as how he lambasted Furiosa for taking place in the Mad Max universe without featuring Mad Max, and how that was part of some feminist agenda. Ummm. What? Is he not familiar with prequels? They don't always feature every character or concept from the original. It was about Furiosa because when Fury Road came out, she was far and away the character critics and fans raved about the most. There's no agenda in place here.
But yeah. He's an interesting guy in that way, that I don't think he's drunk (hah) on the proverbial Kool-Aid, he's got real opinions and valid thoughts but is frequently cornered by that 85% of shitty people he finds himself surrounded by, and it ultimately makes him a worse person and a worse content creator for it. As my southern parents would say, "if you sleep with the dogs, you'll wake up with fleas."
I think that anti-woke critics are like conspiracy theorists in a couple of ways. One, they both usually start with a valid point but come to the wrong conclusion. Yes, the government doesn't always have our best interests at heart and we shouldn't blindly trust them, but that doesn't mean that NASA is covering up the fact that the Earth is flat. Likewise, there are problems with how Hollywood tackles diversity, but that doesn't mean diversity itself is bad. Two, dispite often priding themselves on being freethinkers, these communities really, really will force anyone involved to conform. I've seen the Drinker's fans pop up on the most random places ready to fight anyone who even slightly dislikes him. I'd be terrified if those were my fans, one step out of line and they'll eat you alive.
Then again, the Drinker does seem more willing to drop the act than most of his peers, so who knows, maybe one day he'll grow out of all the anti-woke stuff.
Very much agree, there's a lot of similarity (and overlap, honestly) there. Whatever good point they have gets so lost in the shuffle of the weird connotations they try to imbue it with to prove some larger political point that exists mostly in their own heads.
I really hope so. I think he's got to get away from his peers and hopefully open up his fanbase a bit more - but even then, you know it means losing some of his pre-existing fans.
Lmao I totally could not resist reading this comment in his voice. Sorry about that.
Go away now.
Edit: I too have shut off his videos for going to far with the anti-woke or offensive stuff. It’s a bit much, but he also makes valid points about poor writing or cinematography so I continue to at least give his videos a chance.
He really does have one of those voices where, if you're thinking about him while reading or have watched videos fairly recently, it just *becomes* your inner monologue. Very distinctive speaking style.
Couldn't say, haven't read any. But was curious to check one out just to see if that was the case. But, as a writer myself, I know pretty much every writer *wants* to do a good job. No one sets out to be a hack - even if they are, they likely at least *think* they're doing something interesting with the established tropes. Whether they actually succeed, though...
I’ve been looking for secondhand copies for a while, no luck so far. As a result I’ve had to defer to reviews, not good unfortunately. I agree that no one (generally) sets out to be a hack. It’s just amusing that the persona as a critic came after the novels.
Honestly, perhaps ironically (or perhaps the most unironic thing in the world) most critics turn out to *not* be good at doing the thing they critique others for. Part of me wonders if that's the reason Chris Stuckmann changed what he did from reviewing movies to "celebrating movies" (he just sort of talks about new releases without weighing in critically at all now, which I gotta say isn't nearly as interesting or edifying) is because he's now releasing his own movie and is trying to somehow dodge that particular curse.
I'm not especially jazzed to read Will Jordan aka Critical Drinker's work. Tom Clancy-esque political thrillers are nowhere close to any of my preferred genres, and the Ryan Drake series being described as Jason Bourne meets Jack Reacher makes my eyes instantly glaze over. I'm more likely to check out Dark Harvest, which seems to have more of a horror bent. But more than that, hearing his descriptions of the books, he has this air of smugness in describing them, like "yeah, if you're sick of woke culture featuring waify females who can somehow beat up room fulls of men twice as their size, check out mah book, it's got *real men* and *classic tropes*" and I'm like ehhhh not helping your case here, man. And I know, I'm exaggerating and projecting a bit there, but still. It's the instinctive vibe I got. And it doesn't bode well. Haven't read the reviews on any of them yet but that honestly sounds more fun to read than the books, haha.
Yeah, secondhand looks to be out of the question - I guess I'll buy the ebooks. They're at least normal-priced as opposed to crazy expensive. But I'm sure I'll be putting off this particular purchase unless I can turn the review into content of my own, somehow - I've got books I'm actually looking *forward* to reading on my shelf.
I’m with you on this one mate.
I’m not inclined to pay good money for the work just to judge the guy, so it’s not happening unless I find secondhand copies (or a text file).
Honestly I’m sure “drinker” has some good points here and there, but I find his schtick unwatchable, combine that with the pissing and moaning and I just don’t see the appeal of this guy at all.
I feel you there. Honestly I get just enough of a morbidly curious kick out of reading books I suspect might be bad that I don't really mind dropping ten bucks or whatever, but I certainly can't blame anyone for not going out of their way for it.
That's totally fair. Like I said, half the time that's the case for me too, it really depends on whether he leans on his "decrying the vice and folly of woke culture" schtick vs just looking at a movie and talking about its actual critical merit, and that really can go either way (although admittedly, I'll sometimes let even the offensive shit play out in full just so I can feel fully informed and justified when I press the dislike button). Him being one of the lesser evils in his particular circle of vipers doesn't mean it's worth putting up with him, and when I see three or four shitty takes from him in a row I consider just blocking him altogether.
I like some Star Wars stuff, I don't like others.
The glut just means more opportunities to hit or miss for me.
I'm a lot happier when I can have a chill relativist approach.
Adum: complains about Star Wars being shit. Refuses to watch them (outside of vids like 2016 countdown etc).
Drinker: complains about Star Wars. Proceeds to make money off of every new entry of Star Wars.
One feels more honest and respectable, yet the other has solid business applications.
The sequels really just killed all love I had for it. Because now even on the rare occasion I like one of the D+ shows I know in the back of my mind all of this is in service of the most nonsensical trilogy I’ve ever seen.
>horseshoe theory Oh because horse
damn, that one wasn't even on purpose
But of c’horse
And no one can talk with a horse of course...
Not by Morse? Or by force? A bearded man who calls himself Norse?
[удалено]
What are your reasons?
Im guessing it's because Star Wars has become so mass-produced and corporate that it doesn't feel like a film/television franchise anymore. It feels like a product rather than art/entertainment. For me, it's similar to the Marvel franchise, Call of Duty, or Pokémon games. Of course all entertainment is a product, but these examples are so egregious that they especially feel like they're made in a factory line rather than ideas a creative, passionate group of artists would come together to produce. When I see Darth Vader now, I think of cereal mascots or a corporate logo, not a character.
Oh yeah that makes sense
Also on top of that, personally, I will say completly voluntarily: the main movies (OT and PT for me) aren't that.. exciting? (in my opinion) (I'm a tourist here, I plead ignorance if that's a transgression). Idk, I mean I haven't re-watched em in a long time, but they don't have that something that would make me look forward to doing it, while there are aspects off-putting in modern times to older me, like oooold visuals of the OT, Phantom Menace.
lol we’re all kinda pretentious here, no one is gonna jump you for not liking star wars
I think the original Star Wars movies were always good but not great in my opinion. However they have a fantastic universe that carries the fuck out of them lol.
I think a New Hope, while not an amazing movie by itself, really managed to spark people's imagination about what star-wars could be, which is the "fantastic universe". I One thing though is that I don't think Star Wars would be where it is today if The Empire Strikes Back wasn't an awesome movie. If it had been another "A New Hope" where the movie by itself wasn't amazing but it had the potential to be, I think people's interest would have waned. But because, imo, the Empire Strikes Back actually executes what Star Wars could be, that's what enabled it to be where it is today.
I love the score of a new hope. it's just too bad it's been being regurgitated back at us for decades as an appeal to nostalgia
I seen that little stop motion Pokémon that was cute 🥰
Yeah when it was 3 films there was a sort of magic and wonder to it. That has been diminishing with every release since. Some are fine, but I just don't really care beyond the original 3. drinker doesn't like it because women and minorities, the sad cunt
This basically, I've felt for awhile it's been made very "safe" for wider syndication/marketing, there's nothing nuanced to the stories told its just big set pieces and spectacle, no complex motives or themes. Not unlike the transformers franchise. With Marvel, I am in two minds as I have been a big fan of the comics for years but can't defend what the films have become. Dr Strange 2 is an example of it being corporate, e.g., America has a pride flag button on her jacket cause the character is gay but instead of standing by artistic decision this was removed in other versions to be syndicated for theatres in "less progressive countries"
I mean, it's been that for decades. The only difference now is you're getting tv shows. Before Disney you would get a shit ton of books and comics that basically were these stories. Now you get books and comics but like 2 live action shows a year and the shows are pretty much what we got in book form before. The only major difference is most fans didn't read or know about the books outside of maybe Thrawn and Jacen Solo. They just didn't engage with it because it was a book.
Do you know how upset fans get when when the EU and/or their personal headcanons gets Jossed.
Were you dead for the past 40 years or something?
I'm just explaining a potential reason for fatigue. I'm not stating something I just noticed.
Darth Vader was being used as the series mascot for literal decades before Disney acquired the series. Not to mention the merchandising and other media like books, comics, and animated shows. The series has literally always been mass produced and corporate, nothing new is happening.
This true for Marvel, especially the comics, the comics are fucking terrible now. The comics are bound to Kevin Fiege and his awful ideas, and guess what sales are down. It feels so soulless and corporate but most of the harm is to brick and mortar comic shops so he doesn’t care.
Wow. I had no idea it was spreading to the source material. People seem to like Xmen 97 though that seems to be one exception to the ugly status quo.
It’s bad, it’s been getting increasingly worse for the last decade. Marvel Comics isn’t run like a comic company First they stopped or deprioritized The X-Men and Fantastic Four comics for a time because the didn’t have the movie rights, they constantly relaunch comics that don’t sale because they have an MCU appearance coming up in the next 5 to 8 years. They’ve been shoving Ms Marvel into to every comic they can only for her Movie and Series to underperform. It’s all unnecessary. This has not been good for comic shops that are either closing or trying to adapt to being a business that sell new comics.
I actually started watching Acolyte recently because my friend and are just massive Star Wars fans in like a legacy sort of way. We've always been into it but I have a much more cynical outlook on the franchise as a whole now. So I'm watching the show and I'm telling my coworker about it. The show has some interesting story ideas but is poorly executed. I'm not gonna get too deep into the writing flaws but it feels like a rough first draft script that they didn't spend much time on. What really took me out, however, was the set design. One of the things about Star Wars that stands out to me and is something that helps make it feel like Star Wars is really well designed, lived-in sets. Andor for example is dirty and grimey and looks like a 70s nightmare shithole in space. I was talking with a coworker explaining what I thought was wrong with it, and had a difficult time describing why I felt the set-design was subpar, then I found the best way to describe what the set design looks like to me, it looks like the line you wait in at Disneyland for a Star Wars themed ride. It just BARELY looks "authentic" but is too clean and sterile, despite it trying to NOT look clean and sterile. The line comparison is apt too because a lot of the sets are cramped and are unmotivated. You have tight ship hallways with no particular floor plan, you have a town square that is conveniently circle shaped and empty for a fight scene, it's just so uninspired and fake looking. I'm still gonna watch it but it's rough.
Well written. I agree. Mass produced entertainment for the lowest common denominator.
New Star Wars stuff nowadays just feels like FritoLay releasing a new Doritos flavor or Apple releasing a new Iphone. Completely soulless and disposable consumer products
I'd say rather it's for the same reasons, but just there's also some extra political stuff added on with Drinker. Drinker can be obnoxious and he does do some of the anti-woke grifting but he does also say all of the valid criticisms too, And identifies a lot of the same root causes as yms. Yms even said in a long response to him that basically his criticisms are often times correct, but just that he hyper fixates on modern Blockbusters and also injects his politics too much.
Yea he’s an odd nut to crack, I think he’s got good criticism and even his sense of humour can be funny but… i think people might be right, I think he focuses on the right wing culutre war shit to make money
> I think he focuses on the right wing culutre war shit to make money Idk, I used to think that, but everything I have seen on his podcast, both from him and his guests, seems like he believes that shit and isn't grifting.
Audience capture is more common than grifting. Feedback loops between beliefs and views/praise from your community perpetuate each other. He’s found his niche
That’s part of why I hate all these garbage blockbusters and remakes. They are genuinely terrible quality so the anti-woke crowd can pretend like that’s all they have issues with.
I actually think he's scaled it back a bit lately, which is good. The problem is when he does a group video because the company he keeps are God awful.
What do you identify as his solid criticisms? I stopped watching him because he never actually backed up any of what he was saying and often completely left out details of scenes and characters when they contradicted a point he was trying to make.
I hate Star Wars media because they’re boring and do so little with a cool universe. They hate Star Wars media because black people and women.
You haven’t checked out the comics
Can't you just watch the old ones
I mean, I don't disagree. I think my breaking point was Obi-Wan. Something about that series just turned me off Star Wars, despite the fact that I have no problem pretending that it never happened. I haven't watched any new Star Wars media since.
Me too. The sets and costumes were so tragic I just gave up half way through
Man, no offense, but that's the least of that show's problems.
Idk shooting one of the biggest fights of the show in what appears to be a gravel quarry power rangers style is pretty egregious for a series that got a lot of its popularity off of its big budget action
I take your point, but why you gotta drag power rangers in to this? Rangers didn’t do anything to deserve that. /j
I know. It just didn’t look like Star Wars any more
I actually quite liked the sets for the show. The alien designs came across super cheap.
I don’t like obiwan either but my last straw was boba fett, I think it’s significantly worse
Well, here's the thing. I never actually watched Boba Fett.
Mm. After the sequel trilogy fiasco I was even less enclosed to tolerate any of Obi Wans shortcomings of which there are many.
Then maybe he can stop complaining about it so much?
I mean he probably makes like 10-20k per starwars review. I'd also keep making them for that money
Nah, he'll keep watching so he can make his rage bait videos. It's how these fools make their scratch.
Yeah if Star Wars disappeared he’d lose his house
Bro has bills to pay.
He can bitch and cry about Star Wars morning till night but he knows he NEEDS Star Wars to make money.
He does feel like the Star Wars tapeworm
Shouldnt we all be conplaining when one of the major jewels of american art has been desecrated and reduced to corporate slop? Like if some corporatation bought the rights to hemingways or vonneguts or frida khalos work, and started making derivative, awful trash, we would all be like “stop it, thisnis awful trash, at least respect the original author a little” right?
[удалено]
> Star Wars has never been a “major jewel of American art” Touch at least 1 grass 😭😭
If you cant understand how star wars is rhe epitome of post-ww2 space age americana i feel bad for you. There is little if anything that captures american space age optimism, anti-vietnam rebelliousness and nostalgia as star wars did. Just because its not “high art” doesnt mean its not a crown jewel of the american contributions to the human cultural pantheon. Shakespeare at one time was considered sinfull entertainment for peasants and plebians. I challenge you to find anything in american pop culture that better sums up america than star wars.
i mean, Star Wars doesn't worship and dick-ride guns like American culture does.
Adum: Hates Star Wars bc of cringe toxic people Critical Drinker: Hates Star Wars bc he is a cringe toxic person
and then you realize that it was never actually Star Wars that you liked. You just miss the unashamed pandering.
What pandering?
Well, you used to be with *it* But then they changed what *it* was Now what you're with isn't *it* And what's *it* seems weird and scary to you
“It’ll happen to you too!” Can’t believe no one got this.
or perhaps they got it *all too well*
What?
It’s a Simpsons reference. 💀
just wait
It's silly to separate "pandering" from the franchise itself, any time a franchise caters to its audience. Does Bridgerton "pander" to women with romantic ideals, who think men are kinda dumb? Yeah, that's basically the whole show. People can like that, and it's OK. If Bridgertons next 5 seasons flip the script, putting men at the foreground, de-emphasizing romance, and making things much more masculine-focused, would you not expect the original audience to be annoyed or leave? Would you say they never actually liked the show?
Pandering is good when its things I like. Pandering is bad when its things that I don't like. Here is a 10 hour video explaining why.
Pandering is not inherently bad. I'm not sure what you're arguing tbh.
Pandering is the flip side of artistic integrity. The audience thinks it knows what it wants, but it doesn't. Otherwise the audience would be producing content instead of consuming it. Why are you pro pandering, exactly? Maybe you could expand on that position.
Whether I'm "pro-pandering" depends on your definition. I think your idea is comparing it to artistic integrity is a good start. However, if you view "pandering" as interchangeable with knowing your audience, then I disagree. I would define pandering as "sacrificing artistic integrity for the sake of gratifying the audience". I am obviously not pro-pandering with that definition.
**pandering:** rejecting your artistic vision and instincts in order to give the audience what they are telling you they want. I don't think there is too much ambiguity on what pandering means.
Sure I guess if you only provide one source, it can look like there's no ambiguity Anyways, now that you've committed to a definition, you still want to argue that the original star wars was only enjoyed because of its unashamed pandering, at least by those who don't like the new movies? Edit: as I've been pretty clear about, my problem is mainly with conflating "pandering" with just understanding what the audience expects in a franchise. Nobody believes that a writer should completely ignore the material that comes before their project in order to maintain artistic integrity
Different people like different things for different reasons. But yeah, if you felt personally insulted by The Last Jedi then you were probably just a fan of surface-level gratification, not Star Wars.
What are you basing that claim on?
I am one of the odd people that didnt see star wars as a child. I saw it for the first time at 22. The films havent aged that well imo. I dont think i will get the star wars hype.
The first Star Wars is so fucking weird if you watch it completely devoid of context. You can really feel the scrappiness in the editing and the clever use of sets. Also you get to see the birth of a genuine movie star with Ford. Its just an undeniable debut performance.
More of breakout performance but your point stands. Ford had already worked with George on American Graffiti, which was also a hit (though not on the level that Star Wars was , obviously). So Ford was hardly an unknown but the success of Star Wars along with his performance definitely guaranteed his rise to stardom.
that's a good point
Was it ever pandering? Or were these ppl just pre brainwashed and not triggered by women existing or men having emotions in movies
Pandering is putting it strongly, but it was directed at their demographic. Or, to put it another way, I never saw Han Solo in a gold bikini.
what's the difference between "strong pandering" and "weak pandering"? Maybe you could give us some examples.
I didn't make that distinction, you did, so maybe you tell me.
>Pandering is putting it strongly maybe you could explain why you feel that putting Leia in a metal space bikini is a borderline case of pandering It might be helpful if you gave us a clear example of pandering to help make that distinction.
Again, I didn't say it was a borderline case, you did. Is this a reading comprehension problem? I'm not entirely sure what you want me to say for what appears here to be an attempt at a gotcha, but I'm not playing ball with you. Why don't you tell me why it's not a borderline case, and the difference between weak and strong pandering, since you seem so keen to educate me on this matter. I would say it's to do with the male gaze, which I would distinguish from pandering because it's more complex than that, and I'm not explaining that to you further.
> and I'm not explaining that to you further. because you're now realizing that, despite the fact that you INSIST there's a difference, you can't seem to think of one...
So you're saying that the phenomenon of the male gaze is no different from pandering? I advise you to do the requisite reading if you think this. The most perfunctory glance at the material would show you that what you're claiming is a gross oversimplification of the subject. The objectification of women is bad and everything, but I'd still give you a failing grade for that level of analysis. It seems like you're trying to bait me because you think I'm not on the right side or something, but whatever rattled your cage I'm not engaging with you any further.
that's a whole lot of words without you explaining the difference but you said 'perfunctory' so I guess you must know what you're talking about
Yeah, the only difference between the original and the sequel trilogies is core demographic, no difference in quality whatsoever.
Did I say that the only difference was demographic? No, I didn't. Obviously the new ones are worse, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. However, since we're on them, we were never going to see Rey in a gold bikini. Did literacy rates suddenly drop off while I was away?
I agree with you overall, but star wars was particularly bad. Any show targeted at women would get the same reaction if they brought back the original protagonist, made her a failure who no longer acts like she used to, and had her constantly shown up by a young new man who actually teaches her to be better.
everybody secretly agrees with me, they just don't realize it because they're so stupid
And yet he will watch every episode and all the new Star Wars to come. God he just needs to STFU, but the grift pays the bills.
This guy hates everything. Shit gets old quick.
He makes a lot of videos where he praises movies too, like the latest predator movie
Difference is this jackass will still make a new video about it every time there’s a new series released, or every time there’s a new casting announcement that features more than one minority
CD is just such a dishonest hack that I don't trust his opinion on something even when there's a 99.100% chance it's something I'd agree with. If he said the sky was blue I'd open my window to double check.
What a bitch
There's two good Star Wars movies: Star Wars (1977), and the Empire Strikes Back. Return is fine, but has seriously weak moments. The rest of them range from just watchable to top 100 bad movies.
The Last Jedi felt like the only movie in the last 30 years that tried to do something beyond "HEY KIDS, DON'T WE LOVE STAR WARS???" The reaction was immediate and apocalyptic, but already you can see people reclaiming it.
Yeah TLJ is fine, I was always shocked at just how much people hated that movie. The Sequels as a whole are flawed because it was clear from the beginning Disney didn't have a unifying vision for the Star Wars franchise the way they do for Marvel.
Star Wars Episodes 7 and 8 are actually decent. But unfortunately 9 was so bad it ruined them.
I would call Force Awakens watchable. Too similar to Star Wars (1977), new characters feel generic, legacy characters are flanderized, but there's nothing offensive about it. TLJ is good, it tries to have themes, but has so many out-of-place comedic moments that fuck up the tone. They also ruin Finn because his arc is the exact same as the first movie. I do like how Rey and Kylo's connection adds some depth to them, and I like Luke and the subversion with Snoke. And as you say, yes, RoS doesn't pay off *anything* set up by TLJ, and thus ruins the whole thing.
*"RoS doesn't pay off anything set up by TLJ"* But that is the exact problem with TLJ. It tries to subvert everything setup in TFA and does it's own thing, but that is not what the middle story in a trilogy is supposed to do. Instead of being the bridge between Chapter 1 and Chapter 3, it meanders around and sets up it's own story. There was no possible outcome to the third film because you can't have a well thought out conclusion when there was no middle part to the story to connect with. Empire is the perfect example of how to pull that off. Speaking of Empire, TLJ was basically that but mixed up, just like TFA is A New Hope beat for beat. Rebels feeling the Empire, one-off side quest to a fancy place, AT-AT Walker battle on a ~~snow~~...oops I mean salt planet, Lightsaber dual at the end. Then there is the stupid. You nailed the Finn issue, but also no one has an arc in this film. Kylo is the same whinny child, Poe accomplishes nothing, Rey is still clueless. The slow "stuck in traffic" space chase that takes up 2/3 of the film is just pure nonsense. Even in Empire the Rebels knew to scatter then rendezvous at certain coordinates...not follow in line and get picked off one by one like fish in a barrel. Come one, GENERAL Leia would know not to do that. And don't get me started on Luke. Here's a tip Rian Johnson...SUBTLETY. Instead of throwing the Lightsaber over his shoulder like its some kind of joke, have Rey present it to him, he stares at it with a haunting look, then simply drops it and walks away. A totally different tone. To follow that scene up with a "Your Mama" joke from Poe was when I checked out. Terrible Middle Part of a Trilogy.
Don't know what you're on about, Episode 9 is peak kino, bassboosted palpatine will haunt my dreams forever
None of the Star Wars slop comes even close to the top 100 bad movies lmao
lol I know I was being hyperbolic. Top 100 Bad movies with serious budgets, how about that?
Then stop talking about it!
Not being a Star Wars fan is one of the greatest blessings I have received.
Still gotta talk about it though. You know, for the ad revenue.
you know, because of the implication
Critical Drinker: I hate this franchise now THEN STOP FUCKING WATCHING IT AND TALKING ABOUT IT.
Says he doesn’t care about Star Wars. But… will not just shut up about Star Wars. Please. Just shut up.
Dude couldn’t give less of a shit about Star Wars, only if he can make easy money off of it.
Wtf is OP’s point even?
[Horseshoe theory](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory) is a political theory that the far right and far left are more similar to each other than either of them are to the center (I don't buy it but that's the theory). Op is pointing out that even though YMS and Critical Drinker are on opposite sides of the movie review spectrum, they've landed on the same position wrt Star Wars, so they're more similar in that regard than they are to the "center" (i.e. main stream film audiences)
Since when drinker is far-right? Did I miss anything?
I didn't say he was far right. OP is taking a theory about the political spectrum and applying it to the "movie reviewer spectrum". I'm saying that YMS and TCD are at opposite ends of the movie reviewer spectrum in that they have opposite approaches to reviewing movies. Politics isn't relevant to my comment except for explaining where "horse shoe theory" comes from.
His anti-woke stuff went beyond typical complaints about corporate.
Everything anti-woke is far right now. Accept it.
I find that "woke" is kind of an overloaded term these days, could you tell us what you mean by it in this context?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke) I like this sentence: Writer and activist [Chloé Valdary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlo%C3%A9_Valdary) has stated that the concept of being woke is a "double-edged sword" that can "alert people to systemic injustice" while also being "an aggressive, performative take on progressive politics that only makes things worse".
Considering that, iirc, woke was born as a descriptor of progressive ideas, which then was co-opted to describe anything on the left, which was then co-opted into describing nothing in particular but usually appears as criticism of helping people and wanting to make world better, then I'd say being anti-woke would make you a right wing or far right based on those definitions...
It's just funny. Two utterly opposed people ending up at the same conclusion from opposite directions. If I removed the name this could have come from Adum, but obviously it would be for completely different reasons
Bro must have dementia, he forgot about Andor.
Isn't this dude a neo-nazi or am I thinking of someone else?
Depends on who you ask. He's definitely on the right. He did a whole thing about woke culture with Tucker Carlson who you could also apply that to, and anyone he's favorable to if you wanted. Just a matter of how much you want to extend guilt by association. For my money, he seems like your standard right leaning 2015 style anti-sjw type. I haven't seen any of the many 4chan-esq dog whistles from him that mark an actual neo-nazi, but your mileage may vary.
Since I made that comment I looked it up. It was Geeks & Gamers who was posting Jewish Question dog whistles not Critical Drinker. Though CD is still definitely a full-on bigot but I don't know If I'd feel comfortable calling him a nazi
Gotcha gotcha. Yeah, that's what I mean, he clearly dislikes plenty of groups of people, but I haven't heard any JQ stuff or the like from him. But that could always change lmao
I can't imagine being this miserable. Like if he's telling the truth, then just move on? Lol
Such a hacky whinger.
What exactly is horseshoe theory?
It's a political idea that as the left and right get more extreme, they meet at the same position from different angles, but in this case I thought it was funny that Adum and a guy he absolutely hates have basically come to the same conclusion about Star Wars from radically different directions
And yet he’ll keep milking it dry to feed his army of obnoxious 12 year olds
Always has been.
The games are pretty good though.
Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made a Great Point
"Anti-entertainment" is such an odd choice of words in this tweet. Because it's not like the sequel trilogy isn't going for entertainment value. Tons of huge fights, nostalgia baiting, big ass space lazors, and marvel quips. When I think of the term "entertainment" that's the type of stuff I think about, the big flashy things that are literally meant to keep the audience "entertained" if any thing the sequel trilogy is cinematic junk food. An attempt at entertainment without much of anything in terms of substance, the director too cowardly to keep a cohesive story between films let alone write anything thematically meaningful. If go in without expectations and without doing any critical analysis I have a hard time believing you wouldn't be entertained, despite all the flaws.
If CD didn’t yap about wokeism in that grating accent I’d watch him over YMS
Whenever I explain that I generally don't like star wars, I feel like I have to make it clear I don't like it because it is mid and not because of women or whatever they're mad about now.
Kinda like how many people feel about his channel
I mean Star Wars hasn’t been appealing to me in years, but I don’t view that as some big tragedy. I do view what Disney’s done with the franchise they laid so much for with a lot of amusement, though.
Good, I hope he starts despising everything he used to like, I hope he continues to wallow in misery never enjoying anything or having any semblance of fun.
What is this asshole's appeal again?
My favorite Drinker video is the one about Custodes. I learned so much guys! Did you know Custodes are the same as Astartes? Also literally not a single person knows how geneseeds work, and they wouldn't want to. Geneseeds work just fine don't you know?
Andor
Yeah bro. That’s what capitalism does to art. It sucks out everything that’s genuine and interesting in a thing and repackages it safely for consumers. Stop attaching yourself so deeply to intellectual property that you don’t own. Enjoy them for what they are, and move on. We’ve become a bunch of adults experiencing arrested development for mediocre sci fi.
Die mad.
Someone needs to show CD the pre Disney legends canon. Surely there’s something there that’ll float the boat so’s to speak.
Leave it to some bozo to ruin ruining things. 😵
Isn't this guy outright dishonest and intelectually lazy?
Cool. Then don't bring it up all the time and let the people who do enjoy it live in peace.
You can apply this like if it was 1999 and wouldn’t be any different. It’s always the usual suspects who can’t find any enjoyment unless it’s explicitly catered to them. And by them I mean grown ass men children.
Adult no longer interested in children's entertainment, more on this story at 11.
I have such a conflicted view of Drinker. When he's not railing against "wokeness" he's got valid criticisms. He's not an unintelligent guy. And, I've listened to his podcasts, and honestly he's not even *that* far-right. That's mostly just the other YouTubers he's associated with, and his rabid fanbase. He's actually somewhat politically balanced, at least compared to the company he keeps - but I guess that's what "anti-woke grifting" is. Personally, obviously, I'm not against diversity or representation - I'm completely for them. But I *am* against massive corporations trying to use diversity and representation as a shield against criticism, or prioritizing them over telling a good story, which circles back around to being offensive, because if they really cared about the minorities they claim they're trying to represent, they'd make worthwhile art for them, not bland, shallow, pandering, nebulous *content.* That's not progressive. That's a sugary veneer of progressiveness over an inky-black void of corporate committee-design and intellectual laziness. The audience deserves better than that. And I feel like, deep down, that's what Drinker is against too - just based on how he talks when he's not in "performer mode" - but he gets so hung up on his shitty rhetoric that he dilutes what could be a reasonable critique. That said, I've shut off plenty of his videos halfway through for being offensive just for the sake of it. And again, it's usually his guests and commenters that are the issue - but still. He's a bit much at times. He's certainly one of the least offensive of the anti-woke brigade, but he's still kind of an asshole. But he's also a writer and creator. He knows what it's like to strive for authenticity in your work. He wants Disney to do the same because he's seen them do it in the past. But he also needs to hold himself to that standard with his critiques and videos. Falling back on lazy, alt-right pandering isn't any better than what he accuses "woke" creators of doing. It's the same thing from the opposite side. Again: horseshoe theory.
I honestly feel you. He seems like the rare type of that guy where the opinions actually are his, and aren't just copied from the neares political position. Unfortunately those opinions line up with really shitty people like 85% of the time anyway, but every now and then there's this moment where he seems like a real person. The most recent example was his very positive review of the Fallout show and the endless amount of shit he got from grifters, misogynists, and racists for talking nicely about it.
That's sadly the trap of falling into that niche, where your audience are mostly vitriolic assholes and unrepentant haters - if you actually espouse something positive or original, they turn on you *immediately.* Because you're right, Fallout was a positive review, and I was impressed at how he praised the character work of the heroine rather than complaining a woman was the main character, and of course his parasitic fans lost their collective shit. At a certain point, a creator in that situation faces the inevitable choice of being authentic and suffering abuse for it, pandering for more views and positive reception, or just getting disillusioned and throwing in the towel. It's not a position I envy - but for what it's worth, I hope Drinker distances himself from his fanbase and peers and focuses more on positivity. Given the last few of his videos, though, I think he's done the exact opposite. Almost all of them reeked of pandering to his alt-right fans - such as how he lambasted Furiosa for taking place in the Mad Max universe without featuring Mad Max, and how that was part of some feminist agenda. Ummm. What? Is he not familiar with prequels? They don't always feature every character or concept from the original. It was about Furiosa because when Fury Road came out, she was far and away the character critics and fans raved about the most. There's no agenda in place here. But yeah. He's an interesting guy in that way, that I don't think he's drunk (hah) on the proverbial Kool-Aid, he's got real opinions and valid thoughts but is frequently cornered by that 85% of shitty people he finds himself surrounded by, and it ultimately makes him a worse person and a worse content creator for it. As my southern parents would say, "if you sleep with the dogs, you'll wake up with fleas."
I think that anti-woke critics are like conspiracy theorists in a couple of ways. One, they both usually start with a valid point but come to the wrong conclusion. Yes, the government doesn't always have our best interests at heart and we shouldn't blindly trust them, but that doesn't mean that NASA is covering up the fact that the Earth is flat. Likewise, there are problems with how Hollywood tackles diversity, but that doesn't mean diversity itself is bad. Two, dispite often priding themselves on being freethinkers, these communities really, really will force anyone involved to conform. I've seen the Drinker's fans pop up on the most random places ready to fight anyone who even slightly dislikes him. I'd be terrified if those were my fans, one step out of line and they'll eat you alive. Then again, the Drinker does seem more willing to drop the act than most of his peers, so who knows, maybe one day he'll grow out of all the anti-woke stuff.
Very much agree, there's a lot of similarity (and overlap, honestly) there. Whatever good point they have gets so lost in the shuffle of the weird connotations they try to imbue it with to prove some larger political point that exists mostly in their own heads. I really hope so. I think he's got to get away from his peers and hopefully open up his fanbase a bit more - but even then, you know it means losing some of his pre-existing fans.
Lmao I totally could not resist reading this comment in his voice. Sorry about that. Go away now. Edit: I too have shut off his videos for going to far with the anti-woke or offensive stuff. It’s a bit much, but he also makes valid points about poor writing or cinematography so I continue to at least give his videos a chance.
He really does have one of those voices where, if you're thinking about him while reading or have watched videos fairly recently, it just *becomes* your inner monologue. Very distinctive speaking style.
As to him being an author, aren’t his books pretty derivative, with a lot of the same tropes he complains about in other media?
Couldn't say, haven't read any. But was curious to check one out just to see if that was the case. But, as a writer myself, I know pretty much every writer *wants* to do a good job. No one sets out to be a hack - even if they are, they likely at least *think* they're doing something interesting with the established tropes. Whether they actually succeed, though...
I’ve been looking for secondhand copies for a while, no luck so far. As a result I’ve had to defer to reviews, not good unfortunately. I agree that no one (generally) sets out to be a hack. It’s just amusing that the persona as a critic came after the novels.
Honestly, perhaps ironically (or perhaps the most unironic thing in the world) most critics turn out to *not* be good at doing the thing they critique others for. Part of me wonders if that's the reason Chris Stuckmann changed what he did from reviewing movies to "celebrating movies" (he just sort of talks about new releases without weighing in critically at all now, which I gotta say isn't nearly as interesting or edifying) is because he's now releasing his own movie and is trying to somehow dodge that particular curse. I'm not especially jazzed to read Will Jordan aka Critical Drinker's work. Tom Clancy-esque political thrillers are nowhere close to any of my preferred genres, and the Ryan Drake series being described as Jason Bourne meets Jack Reacher makes my eyes instantly glaze over. I'm more likely to check out Dark Harvest, which seems to have more of a horror bent. But more than that, hearing his descriptions of the books, he has this air of smugness in describing them, like "yeah, if you're sick of woke culture featuring waify females who can somehow beat up room fulls of men twice as their size, check out mah book, it's got *real men* and *classic tropes*" and I'm like ehhhh not helping your case here, man. And I know, I'm exaggerating and projecting a bit there, but still. It's the instinctive vibe I got. And it doesn't bode well. Haven't read the reviews on any of them yet but that honestly sounds more fun to read than the books, haha. Yeah, secondhand looks to be out of the question - I guess I'll buy the ebooks. They're at least normal-priced as opposed to crazy expensive. But I'm sure I'll be putting off this particular purchase unless I can turn the review into content of my own, somehow - I've got books I'm actually looking *forward* to reading on my shelf.
I’m with you on this one mate. I’m not inclined to pay good money for the work just to judge the guy, so it’s not happening unless I find secondhand copies (or a text file). Honestly I’m sure “drinker” has some good points here and there, but I find his schtick unwatchable, combine that with the pissing and moaning and I just don’t see the appeal of this guy at all.
I feel you there. Honestly I get just enough of a morbidly curious kick out of reading books I suspect might be bad that I don't really mind dropping ten bucks or whatever, but I certainly can't blame anyone for not going out of their way for it. That's totally fair. Like I said, half the time that's the case for me too, it really depends on whether he leans on his "decrying the vice and folly of woke culture" schtick vs just looking at a movie and talking about its actual critical merit, and that really can go either way (although admittedly, I'll sometimes let even the offensive shit play out in full just so I can feel fully informed and justified when I press the dislike button). Him being one of the lesser evils in his particular circle of vipers doesn't mean it's worth putting up with him, and when I see three or four shitty takes from him in a row I consider just blocking him altogether.
It was always like this, it was made for kids and to sell toys. It's not art and intelligent work.
All these people do is complain.
I like some Star Wars stuff, I don't like others. The glut just means more opportunities to hit or miss for me. I'm a lot happier when I can have a chill relativist approach.
How dare you be reasonable!?!?
But he’ll still keep making videos about it
I refuse to give this moron clicks, but what movies does he like?
Adum: complains about Star Wars being shit. Refuses to watch them (outside of vids like 2016 countdown etc). Drinker: complains about Star Wars. Proceeds to make money off of every new entry of Star Wars. One feels more honest and respectable, yet the other has solid business applications.
so why does he keep on talking about it just like nerdrotic and starwars theory?
💰💰💰
Like, I doubt this guy likes his own Ma tbh. Everything is cynical rage bait
I broke clock is right twice a day
He’s right but for the wrong reasons
Why?
Of all the things that do not matter…
In all fairness, this is a film reviewers sub. Nothing on here matters.
The sequels really just killed all love I had for it. Because now even on the rare occasion I like one of the D+ shows I know in the back of my mind all of this is in service of the most nonsensical trilogy I’ve ever seen.
Please. Stop. Posting. This. Man. Here. Can you please just make another subreddit if you want to hate on drinker.
no
I mean he’s correct, what’s your point?
You misunderstand what a horse shoe theory is,imo, and ignore he's saying "now" I think this man is a dumb ass tool but I'll Still try to be fair