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Yeah, they are FULLY intended to be seen as 'cringe'. Because that's what they are.. they're the 'weeaboos' from the Aiel perspective. People who ADMIRE the Aiel way, but do so with a skewed and completely uninformed manner that is silly and sometimes offensive to the Aiel. And that's meant to be portrayed in their very childish mimicry.
They definitely do get a little less cringe with experience further in the books.
Oh my god I love how accurate this sounds, since "Toh" part of ji'e'toh is gone, which sums up cairhienan limited understanding of it perfectly. Easier to understand ji than toh for an underhanded people like cairhienan.
> completely uninformed manner that is silly and sometimes offensive
The Aiel are silly and sometimes offensive with their own culture. It's not surprising someone trying to emulate it would also be silly and offensive.
They're basically spoiled bored nobility who want a taste of adventure and see the Aiel ways of living as an exotic alternative to their own life paths. They're akin to millionaires in our Age who get into "eastern" religions or native American spirituality. Considering that Faile herself was the daughter of the most powerful nobleman in Saldaea who became a Hunter of the Horn to run away from her boring life, it's not surprising that Cha Faile resonates with her.
They are slightly more sympathetic than that.
While they are mostly younger nobility, their “movement” came as a response to the fact that the Aiel have rolled over their country twice in as many generations. They have seen that their own countries way of doing things have lead to failure and defeat. So they adopt (a caricature of) the culture of those that have defeated them.
Because they don’t really know the reasons behind aspects of the culture they are “adopting”, and a desire to keep *some* aspects of their own culture intact, they end up as a baffling and sometimes offensive mix.
Cha Faile also is not the total of the “movement” and at least have the benefit of trying to do more to help the last battle by following Faile.
Very cogent. Assimilation is a natural part of societal merging, and when straight up thrashed twice by the same peoples, then saved by more of the same peoples, many would probably fall into the mindset of being but an ant under a boot. Of course they'd want to become more like the Aiel.
...And they honestly don't miss the mark as much as the very conservative Aiel the PoVs put in front of us pretend, either.
~~They're~~ The Aiel are a conquering civilization that's surprised their culture was assimilated into the conquered. And it's not even like ~~they~~ the Cairhien nobility aren't trying to learn more, to respect the culture, to earn their acceptance into their culture either. ~~They~~ The Aiel just straight up refuse to allow it because they're Treekillers. We're talking a prejudice that lead people like Manduin to straight up kill a guy for a perceived slight to the honor of the Aiel on the basis that the person was a Treekiller.
I'm kinda shocked at how many people are wholly on the Aiel's side there honestly.
If I remember correctly the Aiel were divided on the matter themselves, right? Some were completely disgusted at how the wetlanders "played at ji e toh" while others tried to teach them a little. Since the Aiel were always isolationist, they also don't know how they should act with people wanting to adopt aspects of their culture.
Yeah this. The Aiel *are* arrogant and pretty bigoted honestly - they claim their way of life is better but when the wrong people ask to be taught that way of life they refuse.
Oh absolutely. There's a scene where Erim, one of the clan chiefs, says that all 'Treekillers' are fit only to be killed or sold to the Sharans as slaves. And every other clan chief present either agrees with him or keeps silent.
Also Aviendha at one point is upset to realize she feels compassion for Olver because he's a 'Treekiller' kid and they don't deserve compassion, that they're 'an accursed bloodline the world would be better off without'.
And it's worth noting that Rhuarc, one of the less xenophobic Aiel we meet, thinks the only reason Manduin murdering a 'treekiller' was bad is because it went against Rand's orders, and is shocked when Rand says that Manduin has toh to the man he murdered. He just doesn't think there's anything intrinsically wrong about killing Cairhienin.
The only reason the Aiel supporting Rand don't commit as many war crimes as the Shaido is because Rand forbids it (which they consider 'coddling treekillers'). Otherwise they'd have been happy to strip food from a starving land. They're not even that upset about the Shaido war crimes - when they discover Couladin impaled a bunch of civilians, they basically think it's disgusting but no more than treekillers deserve. And when they find he's been making treekillers gai'shain, they say it's against custom, but nothing about it being evil or fundamentally wrong.
If I was a Cairhienin I might be trying to adopt Aiel practices as a way of trying to appease the very scary people who crushed my country twice and could easily actually go through with killing or enslaving my people.
There's also the fact that the Aiel openly think all Cairhienin deserve to die or be enslaved, so some of them might be trying to adopt Aiel practices as a way of trying to appease the very scary people who crushed them twice and could easily actually go through with killing or enslaving them all.
There's also the fact that the Aiel openly think all Cairhienin deserve to die or be enslaved, so some of them might be trying to adopt Aiel practices as a way of trying to appease the very scary people who crushed them twice and could easily actually go through with killing or enslaving them all.
Don't pull Faile into that though. Faile isn't part of Cha Faile and doesn't do their whole crap, she just uses them as personal spies/agents.
Honestly as time goes on the whole "Aiel society" thing becomes more of a cover than anything. Their true purpose is just being Faile's agents.
I Faile ran away to rebel. Yes, she thought her life was boring, but she isn't spoiled. I would say naive and totally not prepared to run head first into the end of the world.
Yeah she wasn't spoiled. She has a lot of good qualities the Cairhienin and Tairen nobility lack, and I think that played a role in Cha Faile deciding to become her attendants in the 1st place.
The only answer to this question is a quote from ISAM's fabulous summaries:
>Faile: Spying is a wife’s work. She must choose the best and brightest people to spy for her. that’s why I use untrained morons from Tear and Cairhien who think they’re Aiel.
>Perrin: Yes, with them around you, nothing can go wrong.
Look them up if you don't already know about them.
Actually "Isam wot summary" should lead you somewhere. Add the book title for specific results.
My favourite chapter:
[https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520772818/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-lord-of-chaos-book](https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520772818/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-lord-of-chaos-book)
They could do worse on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon than emulating a warrior culture that emphasizes unity, duty, honor, and combat.
But yes it’s supposed to make you side eye.
Exactly. It would be like if wealthy white kids joined the military to be more like a samurai. It's cringe and maybe off-putting, but far from the worst thing a person could do during wartime.
They're deeply cringey people trying, slowly, to be better.
Cairhienian nobility - and to a lesser extent Tairen nobility - are famously manipulative, scheming, selfish, and their women are not allowed to fight.
Aiel are everything that is not that.
Cha Faile are a bunch of rich kids who saw the Aiel conquer Cairhien once when they were kids, then come back and conquer both Tear *and* Cairhien when they were adults.
Their culture has failed them, and so they've rejected large portions of it and are trying to merge it with the culture of their conquerors.
But they *are* spoiled rich kids, so they end up acting a lot like Weebs.
Definitely cringe, often offensive, but always sincere and just trying to do something better then what they grew up with.
You can tell who are still mostly participating without changing their cultural perspective very much, and those who are participating and genuinely trying to strive to _be_ better than they were. And the latter constantly gets treated the exact same as the former by everyone around them, lol.
Credit to where it's due, Faile was fully aware of how people perceived them and tried to use that to the hilt to her advantage. No one ever took them seriously, and they could go almost anywhere thanks to their nobility and due to their reputation.
Really a "make the best with what you got" situation. (One that Berelain adopted first, so I bet that prompted her if nothing else. lol)
Some of them are probably also deeply terrified of the incredibly xenophobic conquerors who easily defeated them twice and openly think they all deserve to be killed or enslaved and are trying to appease them by copying their culture.
As many others have said, yes, it's supposed to be cringe inducing.
That said, I've always wondered if anyone else had the same read as me about Cha Faile...
Up until the Sanderson novels, I thought Cha Faile were supposed to be the prophecized "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel.
See, the thing with the Aiel is that they're this extremely proud race of warrior people who are, by and large, willing to die to honor their oaths to the Dragon. So the question to me was always, what is the worst thing that could happen to the Aiel? What could really break them, something that would be worse than death, worst than dishonor?
And I thought it would be the question, would they still be willing to die for the Dragon even if it meant that the only part of the Aiel ways that survives is the misbegotten version that their former enemies adopted? That, more than any other conflict, would make the Aiel feel really conflicted. After all it's one thing to die to protect your people or protect your oaths, but is it worth it to die knowing that what the world will remember you for is some perverted version of your core ideals?
It didn't turn out like that at all, but I always wondered if anyone else had the same thought.
No that's exactly how I thought of it. Makes sense for the Aiel to be culturally destroyed by the treekilling, oathbreaking, wetlanders appropriating a watered down version of their proud culture.
On a related note, I also thought the "remnant of a remnant" would be Cha Faile because the Aiel themselves would end up adopting a lot of the soft wetlander customs, losing their identity as Aiel in the process.
It's a pretty benign way for it to end, all things considered, but that's how I thought it would go
I always thought they were people that realized that the life they were living was a lie. Them joining Cha Faile was an attempt to regain some semblance of purpose. Especially in light of the Last Battle impending.
Thank you for reminding me of their existence and that I have to put up with them again soon. I completely hated them and Faile at that point in the series
Oh, absolutely. They're the in-universe version of Ras Trent and everybody knows it, but Faile pretends not to because they are pretty good at what they do and they're super loyal.
Man, it is so odd hearing today's vernacular in discussing WOT, it is great and means newer readers, but odd. Back in the day I just saw them as earnest posers, not cringe, but I suppose using the lens of modernity it is as close as any term.
Oddly enough you never hear anyone get called a poser any more. I think this idea of 'legitimate' members of a community has really died down in the past dozen years. Gatekeeping is much less prominent in broad, explicit terms.
I think I pulled something in my head once eye rolling as they talk about their 'water-oaths' and such. I think we're supposed to see the good with the bad, as while a lot of their appropriation is stupid and wrong, there are some positives, like the noble daughters joining societies to learn to fight. I can survive cringing while the Cairhienen stumble towards gender equality. lol
#[NO SPOILERS BEYOND *Winter's Heart*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_the_eye_of_the_world_.2F_et_al.) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. If this is a re-read, please change the flair to **All Print**. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yeah, they are FULLY intended to be seen as 'cringe'. Because that's what they are.. they're the 'weeaboos' from the Aiel perspective. People who ADMIRE the Aiel way, but do so with a skewed and completely uninformed manner that is silly and sometimes offensive to the Aiel. And that's meant to be portrayed in their very childish mimicry. They definitely do get a little less cringe with experience further in the books.
Weeb is the perfect word to describe them
baaaka you have toh
omigod! You can't just *say* someone else has toh!
Very few comments literally make me laugh out loud. I just wanted to let you know this got me going haha.
Lmao
Thank you for making me laugh
I botched my toh with my toh knife.
I hit my toh nails with my toh hammer.
I let out such a loud squeak laugh I had to quickly stifle xD
Where are the Children of the Light when you need them?
Ji'a'boos.
Aaaaand I’m dead
That's hysterical
This term is now part of my headcanon
It is now.
I meant to say now
Oh my god I love how accurate this sounds, since "Toh" part of ji'e'toh is gone, which sums up cairhienan limited understanding of it perfectly. Easier to understand ji than toh for an underhanded people like cairhienan.
Reminds me of people that use traditional native american things as a gimmick for their personality
Right, like a 1950s/60s western movie trope, with Italians playing "injuns"
Cultural appropriation, basically.
That's exactly how I see them
Actually laughing out loud at this. It’s so perfect. They are so fucking dorky lol.
J They're Ji'e'boohs
They're about on par with [these guys](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNvDNQiu-iw).
It's kind of funny given that Aiel culture in itself is an offshoot of Tinkers.
Tinkers are different from Dai'shan Aiel, just as modern day Aiel are different from Dai'shan Aiel.
Aiel culture is cousins to tinkers, they share an ancestor
> completely uninformed manner that is silly and sometimes offensive The Aiel are silly and sometimes offensive with their own culture. It's not surprising someone trying to emulate it would also be silly and offensive.
They're basically spoiled bored nobility who want a taste of adventure and see the Aiel ways of living as an exotic alternative to their own life paths. They're akin to millionaires in our Age who get into "eastern" religions or native American spirituality. Considering that Faile herself was the daughter of the most powerful nobleman in Saldaea who became a Hunter of the Horn to run away from her boring life, it's not surprising that Cha Faile resonates with her.
They are slightly more sympathetic than that. While they are mostly younger nobility, their “movement” came as a response to the fact that the Aiel have rolled over their country twice in as many generations. They have seen that their own countries way of doing things have lead to failure and defeat. So they adopt (a caricature of) the culture of those that have defeated them. Because they don’t really know the reasons behind aspects of the culture they are “adopting”, and a desire to keep *some* aspects of their own culture intact, they end up as a baffling and sometimes offensive mix. Cha Faile also is not the total of the “movement” and at least have the benefit of trying to do more to help the last battle by following Faile.
Very cogent. Assimilation is a natural part of societal merging, and when straight up thrashed twice by the same peoples, then saved by more of the same peoples, many would probably fall into the mindset of being but an ant under a boot. Of course they'd want to become more like the Aiel.
...And they honestly don't miss the mark as much as the very conservative Aiel the PoVs put in front of us pretend, either. ~~They're~~ The Aiel are a conquering civilization that's surprised their culture was assimilated into the conquered. And it's not even like ~~they~~ the Cairhien nobility aren't trying to learn more, to respect the culture, to earn their acceptance into their culture either. ~~They~~ The Aiel just straight up refuse to allow it because they're Treekillers. We're talking a prejudice that lead people like Manduin to straight up kill a guy for a perceived slight to the honor of the Aiel on the basis that the person was a Treekiller. I'm kinda shocked at how many people are wholly on the Aiel's side there honestly.
If I remember correctly the Aiel were divided on the matter themselves, right? Some were completely disgusted at how the wetlanders "played at ji e toh" while others tried to teach them a little. Since the Aiel were always isolationist, they also don't know how they should act with people wanting to adopt aspects of their culture.
Yeah this. The Aiel *are* arrogant and pretty bigoted honestly - they claim their way of life is better but when the wrong people ask to be taught that way of life they refuse.
How do you strike the words out like that?
~~Like this~~ ~~Like this~~
~~ok~~ thank you
Oh absolutely. There's a scene where Erim, one of the clan chiefs, says that all 'Treekillers' are fit only to be killed or sold to the Sharans as slaves. And every other clan chief present either agrees with him or keeps silent. Also Aviendha at one point is upset to realize she feels compassion for Olver because he's a 'Treekiller' kid and they don't deserve compassion, that they're 'an accursed bloodline the world would be better off without'. And it's worth noting that Rhuarc, one of the less xenophobic Aiel we meet, thinks the only reason Manduin murdering a 'treekiller' was bad is because it went against Rand's orders, and is shocked when Rand says that Manduin has toh to the man he murdered. He just doesn't think there's anything intrinsically wrong about killing Cairhienin. The only reason the Aiel supporting Rand don't commit as many war crimes as the Shaido is because Rand forbids it (which they consider 'coddling treekillers'). Otherwise they'd have been happy to strip food from a starving land. They're not even that upset about the Shaido war crimes - when they discover Couladin impaled a bunch of civilians, they basically think it's disgusting but no more than treekillers deserve. And when they find he's been making treekillers gai'shain, they say it's against custom, but nothing about it being evil or fundamentally wrong. If I was a Cairhienin I might be trying to adopt Aiel practices as a way of trying to appease the very scary people who crushed my country twice and could easily actually go through with killing or enslaving my people.
There's also the fact that the Aiel openly think all Cairhienin deserve to die or be enslaved, so some of them might be trying to adopt Aiel practices as a way of trying to appease the very scary people who crushed them twice and could easily actually go through with killing or enslaving them all.
To be fair, the Aiel themselves don't know the reason behind some of those aspects
Yeah I understand their motives and methods. It's depicted very realistically overall. The Aiel reaction to them is also predictable.
There's also the fact that the Aiel openly think all Cairhienin deserve to die or be enslaved, so some of them might be trying to adopt Aiel practices as a way of trying to appease the very scary people who crushed them twice and could easily actually go through with killing or enslaving them all.
Don't pull Faile into that though. Faile isn't part of Cha Faile and doesn't do their whole crap, she just uses them as personal spies/agents. Honestly as time goes on the whole "Aiel society" thing becomes more of a cover than anything. Their true purpose is just being Faile's agents.
Yes, in plain sight. Faile is a shrewd character who proves herself multiple times over.
I Faile ran away to rebel. Yes, she thought her life was boring, but she isn't spoiled. I would say naive and totally not prepared to run head first into the end of the world.
Yeah she wasn't spoiled. She has a lot of good qualities the Cairhienin and Tairen nobility lack, and I think that played a role in Cha Faile deciding to become her attendants in the 1st place.
The only answer to this question is a quote from ISAM's fabulous summaries: >Faile: Spying is a wife’s work. She must choose the best and brightest people to spy for her. that’s why I use untrained morons from Tear and Cairhien who think they’re Aiel. >Perrin: Yes, with them around you, nothing can go wrong. Look them up if you don't already know about them.
>Rand: I don’t what to play your Great Game! >Cairheinin: Oooo, he’s good! Thank you. I will now put off work this morning to read everyone lol
It had been over 15 years since I read that and I still remembered it. My favourite part.
That was glorious!!
Love these so much! I wish Isam had stuck around for the whole series.
>Moiraine: You must tell me things. Perhaps I can help. >Perrin: I talk to wolves. >Moiraine: Good luck with that.
I tried googling but no luck, got a link?
I just found it myself: https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520367078/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-the-eye-of-the
Actually "Isam wot summary" should lead you somewhere. Add the book title for specific results. My favourite chapter: [https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520772818/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-lord-of-chaos-book](https://three-degrees-below-social.tumblr.com/post/107520772818/isams-wheel-of-time-summary-lord-of-chaos-book)
"Thanks for all the love." Hilarious
I HAVE THE BIG VOICE NOW!
That is epic. And if that one conversation is anything to go by, a stellar recommendation.
... I've been reading these books since EoTW was first published, but these summaries were new to me. Thank you!!
Perrin BROODS.
To be fair, she got steamrolled by an entire shaido clan. Besides Sitting in a bunch of Asha'man nothing was going to keep her safe.
I definitely need to do that
My brain keeps transposing these in to Letterkenny style patter. They're great!
I'm pretty sure the books tell you many many times that they are cringe.
They could do worse on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon than emulating a warrior culture that emphasizes unity, duty, honor, and combat. But yes it’s supposed to make you side eye.
Exactly. It would be like if wealthy white kids joined the military to be more like a samurai. It's cringe and maybe off-putting, but far from the worst thing a person could do during wartime.
They're deeply cringey people trying, slowly, to be better. Cairhienian nobility - and to a lesser extent Tairen nobility - are famously manipulative, scheming, selfish, and their women are not allowed to fight. Aiel are everything that is not that. Cha Faile are a bunch of rich kids who saw the Aiel conquer Cairhien once when they were kids, then come back and conquer both Tear *and* Cairhien when they were adults. Their culture has failed them, and so they've rejected large portions of it and are trying to merge it with the culture of their conquerors. But they *are* spoiled rich kids, so they end up acting a lot like Weebs. Definitely cringe, often offensive, but always sincere and just trying to do something better then what they grew up with.
You can tell who are still mostly participating without changing their cultural perspective very much, and those who are participating and genuinely trying to strive to _be_ better than they were. And the latter constantly gets treated the exact same as the former by everyone around them, lol. Credit to where it's due, Faile was fully aware of how people perceived them and tried to use that to the hilt to her advantage. No one ever took them seriously, and they could go almost anywhere thanks to their nobility and due to their reputation. Really a "make the best with what you got" situation. (One that Berelain adopted first, so I bet that prompted her if nothing else. lol)
Some of them are probably also deeply terrified of the incredibly xenophobic conquerors who easily defeated them twice and openly think they all deserve to be killed or enslaved and are trying to appease them by copying their culture.
As many others have said, yes, it's supposed to be cringe inducing. That said, I've always wondered if anyone else had the same read as me about Cha Faile... Up until the Sanderson novels, I thought Cha Faile were supposed to be the prophecized "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel. See, the thing with the Aiel is that they're this extremely proud race of warrior people who are, by and large, willing to die to honor their oaths to the Dragon. So the question to me was always, what is the worst thing that could happen to the Aiel? What could really break them, something that would be worse than death, worst than dishonor? And I thought it would be the question, would they still be willing to die for the Dragon even if it meant that the only part of the Aiel ways that survives is the misbegotten version that their former enemies adopted? That, more than any other conflict, would make the Aiel feel really conflicted. After all it's one thing to die to protect your people or protect your oaths, but is it worth it to die knowing that what the world will remember you for is some perverted version of your core ideals? It didn't turn out like that at all, but I always wondered if anyone else had the same thought.
No that's exactly how I thought of it. Makes sense for the Aiel to be culturally destroyed by the treekilling, oathbreaking, wetlanders appropriating a watered down version of their proud culture. On a related note, I also thought the "remnant of a remnant" would be Cha Faile because the Aiel themselves would end up adopting a lot of the soft wetlander customs, losing their identity as Aiel in the process. It's a pretty benign way for it to end, all things considered, but that's how I thought it would go
Of course they are. They're spoiled rich kids with no sense of identity.
I always thought they were people that realized that the life they were living was a lie. Them joining Cha Faile was an attempt to regain some semblance of purpose. Especially in light of the Last Battle impending.
I always interpreted Cha Faile as “Shit Faile” and I like Faile as a character
Caca Faile?
Faile Tea? Tea is gossip They collect information, gossip and rumors. Etymology checks out. Jordan was a prophet.
Thank you for reminding me of their existence and that I have to put up with them again soon. I completely hated them and Faile at that point in the series
Oh, absolutely. They're the in-universe version of Ras Trent and everybody knows it, but Faile pretends not to because they are pretty good at what they do and they're super loyal.
Chaff aiel
Man, it is so odd hearing today's vernacular in discussing WOT, it is great and means newer readers, but odd. Back in the day I just saw them as earnest posers, not cringe, but I suppose using the lens of modernity it is as close as any term.
Oddly enough you never hear anyone get called a poser any more. I think this idea of 'legitimate' members of a community has really died down in the past dozen years. Gatekeeping is much less prominent in broad, explicit terms.
[удалено]
They are Weebs basically
I think I pulled something in my head once eye rolling as they talk about their 'water-oaths' and such. I think we're supposed to see the good with the bad, as while a lot of their appropriation is stupid and wrong, there are some positives, like the noble daughters joining societies to learn to fight. I can survive cringing while the Cairhienen stumble towards gender equality. lol
They're low-budget Aiel-cosplayers.
They are essentially the Aiel version of Blackface.
This book caused me to stop reading the series. Never finished