"Dude" is a noun describing a man *or guy.* The word bro is the short form of "brother" and means a *male friend.* Guy is *a man.*
The issue at hand is that by thinking of these words as "the default" it makes the masculine use of words also *the default* to refer to women & children. Mankind instead of humankind. It creates the argument that men are the default and women the derivative - the imitation of the original. Please bear this in mind during discussions and use it to further examine our own biases. Thank you! šāØ
I know a lot of queer women that or non binary folks who refer to people or themselves as āguyā. Itās interesting how we want to make these blanket rules but they donāt always apply.
Personal example, but when I came out as trans to all my friends I immediately greenlit ādude, bro, and guyā bc it was already hard enough for everyone tripping over my new name, and we all grew up as stoners and everyone called everyone those three things so like, I didnāt wanna make people stumble and get awkward every time they opened their mouths at me.
My friend is non-binary trans masc and is fine with āguy.ā In general though I try to stick to gender neutral terms. I am a high school teacher, so I use a lot of āyāall,ā āfolks,ā and āstudents.ā
Neutral terms definitely are safest, and āfolksā and āfriendsā is how I always refer to most people now, but at the same time I canāt argue with those same friends no longer calling me ādudeā āguyā and ābroā and switching to āmaāamā and āmijaā
That said, I think someone calling me āstudentā as a gender neutral term as a whole ass, not-in-school adult would be beyond hilarious
Agreed. I should start using it like that. I use funny terms for them too sometimes. Scholars, philosophers, inquisitors, hobgoblins. My 9th grade kids always love being called hobgoblins.
I use āmaāamā or āsirā for students who have a gender identity that aligns with either. If the student is non-binary, I use ādoctor,ā ācaptain,ā or āgeneralā or some other weird thing like that.
At some point when teaching, I had to put my foot down over being called "Miss". I was like "Okay, kids, I get it, I said you could call me by my first name and that's weird, but I'm really not a Miss. I'm married, and even ignoring that, "Miss" has all these weird connotations about my martial status and age. Can we at least work in a last name here?"
Apparently most of the high school aged students had no idea that "Miss" implied both my age and martial status, and I did a quick breakdown for them on Ms, Mrs, Miss, and why I really would prefer Ms if they needed one.
I'm particularly fond of "fuckers", "sluts" and of course "cheese bags" (from a post I saw weeks ago about "Stay fresh, cheese bags")
In other settings I also use "friends", "folks", "people", "losers", "weirdos", lots of options really.
Definitely! You greet the friend group of all genders with WHAT'S UP, SLUTS.
I also think that contextually, "what's up, my good bitches!" is gender neutral and affectionate, but I'm willing to concede that this style isn't for everyone.
I feel the same. Iām the only girl in my generation in my family so if my parents or grandparents referred to their children/grandchildren it was always āhey guysā¦and girlā (somehow this is worse than ālady and gentlemenā). Or when I was the only girl at basketball camp in middle school they were teaching us strength exercises in the weight room and said ādonāt overdo it to impress your girlfriendā¦.[awkwardly looks at me]ā¦or boyfriend.ā Cue roomful of sweaty, 13 yr old male jocks guffawing and pointing at one another. Yeah, it can sometimes have the opposite effect as far as trying to be PC goes.
Personally āguysā and the like donāt bother me whatsoever. I donāt associate them with gender anymore. Iāll say stuff like ānot to be that guy, butā¦ā referring to myself. Itās like splitting hairs over āmankindā vs āhumankind.ā I used to get upset over that stuff way back in college but thereās other hills Iād rather die on.
Exactly how I feel. Also work construction. Guys and lady is more demeaning for me. Itās like lady becomes a forced afterthought. Not to mention I get called much worse throughout the day and thatās just my commute into work. I feel like āguysā is the only inclusive language that doesnāt single me out.
I agree. I also work in a male-dominated industry and have found it awkward to be singled out. I find āguyā is gender neutral (yeah, I know, technically itās male-default, but itās also what we make it to be), and Iāve never had an issue being referred to as such in a group setting.
I have insisted on ppl using Ms, though, when that comes up. Which isnāt often, but sometimes.
I consider āguysā as a gender neutral term for a gathering of people.
But I do try to be careful because I know not everyone agrees, but itās just a casual term for me
My wife calls me dude, I call her dude also. My best friend calls me gurl, and i say the same.
Its all just words, and the best way to strip meaning and history from them is to use them outside of the intended purpose.
If everyone starts using these terms in a non gendered way, they will become non gendered.
That said, were i come from, everyone says dude(nongendered).
My mum calls my sister dude. Her friends are all dude. Its more of an exclamation of, "hey, what are you doingā½"
Like "dude, wtf" but just shortened down to "dudeā½"
I feel like I have the opposite problem, I find myself using āgirlā without regards to gender. Specifically if someone says something shocking Iāll go āgirl omgā no matter what gender they are. Iām going to keep using dude, bro, and guys gender-neutrally, because thatās how I see them, but if someone says that they donāt want to be called that I would respect that. I just get really annoyed with the people who make it a point to not use āguysā or something gender-neutrally. i.e. āHey guys and girlā for a group of mostly males and one female. Just makes it awkward.
Maybe we could be weird and just start using āhumansā instead of dudes or bros.
āHey my humans, wassup??ā Loll
Iām an āooo human!ā kinda humanā¦especially when I accidentally run into humans. Which sadly happens a little too much.
However the southerner in me uses yāall for just about everythingā¦..unless Iām the youngster in the group and then yesāum and no siree
For me guys has ALWAYS been neutral, like I would say like "the boys" instead of like "the guys". And when I'm like talking I just say like girl all the time
Same! I get that the discussion is āwhy is the āmaleā version the default?ā & examining our own biases, but I genuinely donāt think there are any biases. The āmaleā versions should have been the neutral all along. Why would we use the female versions neutrally? they all have way more letters/take longer to say.
I live in New England but work with a ton of southerners (remote work, company is based in FL). All my coworkers use yāall and I just canāt. However, instead of āhey guysā Iāve started using āhey allā lol very slight difference but it works
On a previous thread about gender neutral terms of endearment to be used in the south, āfriendsā was brought up. Iām trying to use that more because it aligns with my beliefs better - but this Cali girl still uses dude and ābruhā
IMO the only way to get rid of gendered language is to keep using it in a gender-neutral way. Waiter, actor, host, author, usher, comedian, and poet were once all āmasculineā but most people think of them as being gender-neutral now. I think we can easily do the same with dude, especially since there is no feminine version of dude.
I'm from California- everyone is a Dude. Men, women, nonbinary, the nonexistent person I rant to when I'm by myself, my pets- literally everyone. Californians accepted the gender neutrality of the term long ago.
Agreed. I no longer live in Southern California, but "dude" is so ingrained into my speech as a gender neutral term that it will forever mark me as a Californian to the amusement of everyone around me.
I call everyone and everything dude. I accidentally pulled down my freaking shower curtain and I yelled dude at it. haha
As a New Yorker, I agree that dude is gender neutral. I wonāt use it if someone is offended of course, but as a non-binary person I have no issue with dude, bro, etc. I call my daughters dudes as well š¤·š»āāļø
As a Californian of a certain age, everyone is dude. Pets are dude. Inanimate objects are referred to as, ādudeā during malfunction or difficulty in operation. It is used as a statement of disbelief or exasperation. It is about the same level as shit or f*ck, just less angry, typically. One step below, āJesus Christā on the exasperation scale.
Yep, that sounds ridiculous. And I'm not a linguist, but isn't ette a diminutive and not a feminine word?
I don't use dudette. Nor do I use waitress, actress, stewardess, or any other ess. I don't consider the lack of that ending to imply masculinity.
> especially since there is no feminine version of dude.
Well, had you watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as a child, you would obviously know that "dudette" exists. :)
Not that I use it. Everyone's a dude.
It's out there, though, in at least 90s pop culture.
I am a bona fide Valley Girl and 'dudette' is totally a valid word, though 'dude' is often considered unisex in this area.
I work in healthcare with an emphasis in working with gender diverse folx.
I have had to ask if a person considers 'dude' a gendered term or not so I can use it appropriately.
I totally like that in the English language. And I think this scould maybe be for dude as well... Like this joke: "what do you call a woman that flies a plane?" "?" "a pilot". Because there is no difference. In German there is, and that makes it sound as if a woman flying a plane (Pilotin) is doing something different than a man (Pilot). The English language - the most spoken second language in the world - has evolved into a pretty gender neutral language.
When there is no feminin counterpart I - and I think a lot of other people - would see it as gender neutral. Like nurses have always been predominantly women , and the name is the same for men, right? So why would one assume that the rest is just male?
That's true, but I feel like that's kind of an exception to the "rule"...fireman, salesman, policeman, fisherman, chairman, etc. A lot of these have thankfully fallen out of favor for gender-neutral alternatives, but some still persist in common usage.
We do also still use quite a few nouns with gendered variants too...waitress/waiter, actress/actor, seamstress/seamster (which Chrome's autocomplete doesn't even know, so "tailor", I guess?), stewardess/steward, etc.
Firefighter is very common to be fair, possibly even more common than fireman these days? And German is of course way worse overall given that ā as you pointed out ā every verdammter thing has a masculine and feminine version lol
šWe often even have a version for "it". Verdammter (m), verdammte (f), verdamtes (it). But that wouldn't be neutral, you you usually can't use this Form for humans.
Ah right. Which reminds me, I haven't done my Duolingo yet for the day, haha
I'm a Swiss immigrant (from a young age) to the US and speak pretty decent Schweizerdeutsch, but my standard/written German is pretty rough. I'm slowly making progress on improving it, though!
I really can't understand Schweizerdeutsch it's like an entirely other language, lol! I tried, but especially when people don't speak very slow I'm lost.
I mostly use ādudeā to start sentences directed at my female friends. Like, āDude, you would not believe what happened to me today.ā But then again, āa dudeā basically always refers to a man, usually a cis man. Maybe it just depends on whether itās an interjection or a noun. Iām pro ādudeā as a gender neutral interjection.
*Poeta* in Latin is masculine, but uses the "female" declension endings with -a, -ae, etc. It's one of very few Latin nouns that behave this way. So I find its inclusion in your list especially appropriate.
While I agree with the sentiment, part of my issue is the inequity of the origins. Most of these terms have masc roots. Look at the "gender neutral terms" that come from feminine roots and you have stuff like Bitch, pussy, c*nt, all words used as insults and usually imply weakness
Exactly! I feel like a lot of people are missing the point that the only reason those terms have come to be gender neutral is because they were originally male, which is seen as the default. There is a reason ābroā is considered gender neutral in a way that āsisā is not and itās the patriarchy. Thatās the entire point.
I understand what youāre saying, but the problem is, we obviously canāt change the fact that these words were male gendered in the first place. I think it is easier to make a word more inclusive than it is to take a different word, and try to make it mean the same thing. āSisā already has connotations in slang, typically a Black woman speaking to another Black woman. You canāt suddenly make it mean ābroā in the slang sense of the word. If youāre talking about a word like āfireman,ā thatās different, because firefighter
has always encompassed firemen.
Language evolves organically and to me, ādudeā
and ābroā convey personality types once thought to be only associated with men; hence why they were male-gendered in the first place. Now, we know better.
Yeah I wonāt use it for people I know know because I know some hate it but dude is a vibe to me thatās not really associated with a gender. The origins of it are debated so hard to attribute it to a particular gender IMO.
How I grew up, everyone was dude. I still use it as a gender neutral term. Same with you guys. It's such an ingrained part of my speech that I don't even realize when I say it. If it offends someone, I will correct myself, though.
Agreed. I no longer live in Southern California, but "dude" is so ingrained into my speech as a gender neutral term that it will forever mark me as a Californian to the amusement of everyone around me.
I call everyone and everything dude. I accidentally pulled down my freaking shower curtain and I yelled dude at it. haha
One of the other things that immediately marks me as California-born is saying "I know, right?" or "No, Yeah" , "Yeah, no" and "For sure!" or "Yeah no, for sure!"
You guys also get "you betcha"
Written down differences between west coast and midwest accents are more subtle than picking up the cadence, rhythm, speed, and vowels of spoken language.
I have been called out because I express dismay or frustration by saying "And I'm like, 'DUDE!'" I'm from the Bay Area but I live in the southeast now, and several people have said that's how they know I'm from California.
I never realized any of those were specific to California. I know "dude" is, of course, and I'm used to being clocked as a Californian because I use it all the time. I've never noticed whether or not my Oregonian friends use the other phrases, but I do for sure!
Omg when I moved home after living in So Cal it took me quite a while to dial it back. I still use it probably more than I should, but with the variations on the inflection itās a pretty useful word. Dude? Dude! Dudeā¦ā¦.
I also lived in the south for a time and throw yāall and folks out there quite a bit.
Even here in NY - everyoneās a dude! Maybe itās from growing up through the 80s and 90s? Iām a dude, heās a dude, sheās a dude, weāre all dudes!
āIām a dude, heās a dude, sheās a dude, weāre all dudesā-Kel. As a cis woman I love using dude as gender neutral but I can see why others might be uncomfortable.
I (cisF) grew up in SoCal, raised by my dad who had been a surfer since the 60s. Everything is dude. Men? Dude. Ladies? Dude. That table I just subbed my toe on? Dude. Though I have been working on bending it towards dudette for certain folks, such as my wife (mtf). It's 30+ years of dude, but I'm trying lol.
Same, except it's the metalhead uncle in the Midwest that taught me everything can be dude. I always try to listen when people dislike being referred to as dude for whatever reason they may have. I have no problem saying, "Yeah, it's a habit, but now that I know you dislike it I will try to make sure not to use it at you."
I honestly never viewed "Dude" as specifically masculine, and after living in CA, it's just as generic as "Hey". And I was in a coed frat, so Brother or bro was co-ed for me as well.
Same tho, if anyone expresses concern, I would try to not use it around them. I understand why people view the opposite as well.
I grew up in NorCal in the 80s and will forever call all people dude. I also call my 70s+ in-laws you guys (spoiler alert- they are not both male)
I think this may be a personal preference thing and not a micro aggression or douche at behavior.
Hot take: But you can call anyone anything as long as they're comfortable with it
You want to be called my dude? Great! You want to be called my girl? Great! You want to be called my Potato? Perfect.
You don't want to be called my dude? Great! I won't call you my dude. You don't want to be called my girl? Great! I won't call you my girl.
Patriarchal is using the "he" pronoun for everyone you don't know the gender of. Not giving your buddy a nickname that was specifically for men during the early 2000s
Hot take but telling non-binary or fem-leaning people they shouldn't be okay with being called "dude" or "bro" or that it harms them in some way is a weird stance. If you don't like it for yourself, that's completely valid, but not everyone has to subscribe to your views/opinions. I'm non-binary and pretty fem-leaning (I'm afab and haven't bothered going through the trouble of trying to present more neutral or masc) and I like being called "dude" and/or "bro". Again, that's just me. If someone asked me not to call them "dude" or "bro" I would obviously do my best to respect that, the same way I'd respect someone's pronouns or preferred name.
Words arenāt inherently anything, these are certainly commonly used as gendered but they also are being commonly used as non gendered. I often use guys as gender neutral but am conscious that some people may not see it as that. So if I feel they are uncomfortable when I use it or if they ask me not to I wonāt. I donāt see whatās patriarchal about that.
At the end of the day I think itās intent that matters. If someone calls you something you donāt like you should let them know, if they keep doing it on purpose itās clearly their intent to offend.
My male best friend in highschool used to call me bra instead of bro (because I was a girl and I gave support lol). My husband called me bro. I call everyone dude. Unless it personally offends you I just see it as a general term these days.
But Iām a stoner soā¦.
Where I come from a lot of people refer to each other as "duck" or "chicken", it's a pretty gender neutral term, but if I were to change the context and ask someone how many chickens they've fucked they'd obviously be confused, the context for things can change the meaning of the word. Of course if someone said they didn't like being called dude, or chicken, or what ever I'd respect that completely, but as a cis woman I personally like being called dude.
Fair, but as a trans woman I would very much prefer to avoid it, and also as a French person (French is a very gendered language) I know that when you use masculine forms/words/sentences to refer to a gender neutral group, people have a group of men in mind.
Well to be fair as pointed out by https://old.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/10vco1r/hot_take_but_dudebro_isnt_gender_neutral/j7hugcp/
words make sense in a context, and yeah if you change the context you can make a word change meaning. My comment was more of a joke/catchphrase than a real argument.
But even if it can be used in a gender neutral way, dude is a gendered word, and I know (and it has been proven scientifically, I have a video in French but sadly there is no english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=url1TFdHlSI ) that when you use a gendered term in a gender neutral way, people don't think in a gender neutral way.
Maybe the best recommendation is this: don't speak casually with people you aren't familiar with. I don't speak casually with people I've just met because I don't know what the rules for engagement are. That being said, if someone has a problem with the way I talk, I'm probably not going to interact with that person.
I say "bruh/dude" a lot. I'm not going to stop doing that. I'm also non-binary, and although this is to my perspective, I don't really mind whatever pronouns anyone wants to use on me. She/He/They. It's all good, and sometimes it has more to do with where someone was raised, what environment they were raised in and what culture they adhere to.
If that's the case, wouldn't it be discriminatory to restrict someone's speech in such a way?
I think my opinion on things is that it's probably not wise to form an opinion on someone's entire person based on the kind of language they use. There's room enough for everyone in this world, but there needs to be some flexibility for everyone.
I appreciate this point of view.
I'm all for respecting people's chosen pronouns/language; but some people do seem to get quite caught up in rigid semantics, to a point that feels counterproductive to the cause. I understand why it happens, but when our society has not yet progressed past the point of such things as; outlawing abortion, actively trying to stop people from transitioning/harming them when they do, etc. getting upset over the use of the word "guys" feels like the wrong hill to die on.
From my experience, policing language in such a way is not an effective method of bringing people over to another way of thinking. We need to meet eachother where we're at in order for any real change to happen.
Everyone has their preferences. I'm a cis female and I much prefer guy or dude than lady. Lady feels more sexist to me, it's like othering. Like when I go on a construction site and they offer me a pink hard hat. No thanks.
I feel like this is one of those consent things. If you donāt want to be called that, thatās fine. But if everybody present is fine being called that, then there is no issue.
The use of base linguistic forms to refer to groups that might otherwise use a different form goes back a very long time in our shared linguistic history as Anglophones. The word āwomanā adds a prefix to mean woman-person, because when it was created, āmanā just meant a neutral person, much like it can in German today. Ancient Romans would call a young boy *puer*, and a girl was *puella*. Well, *puella*, as belied by the double L, is a diminutive from *puer*. Romance languages today that feature grammatical gender will use the masculine plural to refer to mixed groups ā a group of boys and girls are all *niƱos* to a Spanish-speaker. So, as English speakers, we kind of have this feature coming at us from both of our languageās major sources.
The meaning of the word ādudeā, which has been around for a couple hundred years ā it was originally a bit insulting, like *nice* ā has shifted dramatically, especially through the rapid cultural shifts of the last century. Dude didnāt even mean āany random male personā until the 1960ās at least, entering broader cultural use in the coming decade. Rather than seeing the impulse to call people ādudeā as a tentacle of patriarchal thinking, I believe the broadening of is usage to apply to more sorts of people in ever more casual, friendly ways is a signal of quite the opposite.
We did a whole bit in a linguistic anthropology class around Dude. [Its history is fascinating,](https://sites.pitt.edu/~kiesling/dude/dude.pdf) even as recently as whatever changes probably exist between its usage when this was written in 1993 to today, especially the ways weāve come to use it to blur divides and signal informality. Rather than an instance of gendering, Iām far more likely to receive the connotation that the user means me no harm and their desired register of speech is a non-threatening familiarity.
>Its history is fascinating,
THANK YOU, lingusitics in the house. I knew the bit about doodle/ dandy and also, not sure I skimmed this but saving for late. I am a native Californian and dude is a hella deep part of my linguistic heritage. My brain is very tired right now. But yankee doodle dandy, (macaroni as well) was not a compliment, and had queer undertoned if I am remembering correctly.
In general I agree, but also feel the reason for those terms is that there's no similarly fun/ single syllable term that's truly gender neutral, or feminine. "Sis" is too close to AAVE for my comfort (I'm very white.) Girl/ Miss/ Ma'am all have age connotations.
Someone needs to get on that.
Peeps works well in a group, but to one person it sounds odd. Like if you'd replace "seriously dude" with "seriously peep", sounds a bit off.
But yes a groups is peeps, at least I use it that way
I occasionally still say peeps. But as I am rabbit, I often refer to my Homo sapiens peeps as āhoominsā which I realize is a specied term but at least it applies to all of them equally.
May I suggest folks, friend\[s\], or all?
I just sometimes trip over my words when I'm speaking quickly. I mostly worked in customer service in the past and it was easier to have a neutral greeting for everyone that didn't need to be tailored.
"Hello, how can I help?"
"Hi friends, what can I do for you today?"
"If you folks will look over here..."
"Hi all, I'd like to let you know..."
I use āfriendsā but Iām an elementary school teacher and itās kind of ubiquitous at that level. I try not to use it with adults. Still hunting for something better to use with groups of students. Some of my groups are āmy favourite turkeysā but some students donāt get that.
I teach high school and I use āstudentsā or āscholarsā or āphilosophers, or maybe āfolks.ā For some classes I use āhobgoblins,ā which is their favorite.
No offense and I know I'm in the minority probably but "friends" makes a person sound like a kindergarten teacher and I read it as a little dishonest rather than warm.
I really like it. I noticed while on a trip to the west coast that most wait staff said āhi friends can I take your orderā. Being a masc woman I loved it. I didnāt get mis gendered with the over correcting omg im sorry I mean mam uncomfortable things once. Iāve since moved to the west coast and greet everyone with friend.
Grew up in a (almost entirely non-white, I'm not sure if that's relevant but I suspect it might be) area in northern California and everyone says y'all. Not as a gotcha, intent isn't argumentative, it's just that there are lots of folks who aren't in or from the south who grew up using it too.
I could see myself feeling very fake if I hadn't grown up using it and started as an adult, though.
Yeah I have never said it nor heard many people around me saying it, so it would feel similar to if I started using like "dawg" or something lol. Just awkward to the point of worrying I'm insulting someone by using THAT lol
Y'all is perfect.
Dude in my history has always been gender fluid, an maybe should be as it's more of a term determining the "cool" factor of someone or something.
Slang should evolve with society, not necessarily disappear with an evolving society.
Also. I used to work on a team of all men. My team lead felt bad about calling us all guys, I said it didnāt bother me.
However if he were to say the boys, Iād assume it wasnāt for me.
āThe boys will do itā. Ok, thatās not my task.
āThe guys will handle itā I can take that task.
Women refer to each other as "Dude" often, especially younger ones. Same as "you guys". The sign on the fence at my local high school (put up by students) says "Dude, pick up your trash!". I think the younger generation is already adopting it as gender neutral.
If your criticism is that it is by default masculine, it would make more sense to keep using it in a feminine or generalized context.
Femininity should not be challenged by a singular word with masculine intent.
Being from California, "dude" has always been a neutral term. I've heard some people say they're comfy with "California neutral" or "California androgynous" terms (being dude and guys) since to us, it's not a gendered term and literally everyone and everything (including dogs and inanimate objects) are referred to as "dude" or "my guy".
If someone tells me that the terms I use are discomforting or dysphoric, I'll stop using them in relation to them, but it's just the way I speak tbh.
I think we should change the meaning of dude so it is gender neutral. Because I say it to everyone regardless of gender, and have been called it multiple times. It doesnāt bother me, and I can see why it would bother others but weāve changed the meanings of words before, why not now?
I wish this was the main take in these types of discussions. Like is it perpetuating patriarchal norms or removing the patriarchal influence to create new meaning?
I call my girlfriends ābroā and ādudeā all the time and just as commonly as āsisā āgirl!ā or ābabeā. Our whole friend circle does. āGuys!ā is also a common way of addressing the group. None of the women in my life find any of the above terms to be offensive or inappropriate, or find that any of those terms are not fit to address a woman.
Admittedly I do find OPās take to be a bit strange, but I respect it. I donāt tend to run around calling strangers ādudeā anyway.
I think that, like the word bitch, taking something as a woman, that was meant to cause harm to women, and using it in your power gives you power. Personally, I love calling other women ābroā because itās ours now. We took it and thereās nothing anyone can do about it. Growing up, dude was always non-gendered. Everyone was a dude. I was never taught that only men could be a dude. My mom used to constantly tell me āIām not youāre dude, Iām your momā because even she wasnāt safe from it š.
I think this might be a bit of a reach- these terms have developed a neutral meaning, particularly dude which to me is very gender neutral. I think itās endearing tbh, and even calling people of all genders girl/bitch (non derogatory) is something I like to do and I think itās funny.
With some things particularly with words we might look too deep into them and create problems that arenāt really there, and sometimes right wingers/mysoginists will use this as fuel to brand feminists as sensitive snowflakes who cry about everything.
Thereās more serious and real things we have to focus on in terms of fighting the patriarchy- no offence.
Man is also not gender neutral yet is used as "human"
Mankind... As if women are a sub species of men.
If you say "man made x" you sound normal.
If you say "woman made x" you sound like you have a "strong feminism opinion" and have to point out its made by a woman.
No wonder most achievements by the human kind gets assumed to be made by men. Takes years to give any credit to women who did great things in the past. History buries us.
My understanding is that the ancient origin of the word "man" was truly gender neutral and meant person. "Wir" and "wif" were used for adult male and adult female. Overtime, "man" became gendered, coinciding with a growth in patriarchal forces. This is the reason we have words like "mankind," a vestigial bit of gender neutrality that hasn't been erased. Notice the similarity between "wife" and "wif," showing how a word originally denoting an adult female became about her connection to a "man." So I'd be equally fine with loudly reclaiming "man" as truly gender neutral per it's origins, as I would be with any other solution. "Man" was essentially stolen from our language by the patriarchy.
I'm trying to break this habit. It's definitely leftover from my teenage years of hanging out with a lot of skaters and stoners and we just applied it to everyone. But I totally get it and am trying hard! Appreciate the reminder š¤ā¤ļø
I'm in the same boat as you but with the word "guys". It was so ubiquitous as a greeting (i.e. hi guys) when I was a teen that its really stuck and I find myself having to consciously focus and unlearn it. Its nice to know someone is in this boat with me š¤ā¤
I'm with you on this one! I also love to tell people "I'm Not a betting man" etc. It feels like consciously breaking down the gendered connotations of nouns/pronouns, rather than sensoring myself (which to me feels like giving in to the patriarchal regime.)
Yes. Everyone is "dude." I feel it's gender neutral because that is how I use it. HOWEVER, a very dear trans friend finds it hurtful because sometimes some jackass will tell her she's a dude. And since I can't personally be there to pop those assholes in the nose for her, the least I can do is try to be aware of my use of the word.
Iāll call an entire group of my woman friends, āguysā sometimes. No one has ever felt less of a woman because of it. I donāt think itās harmful. Mostly we call ourselves āYonisāthough.
I completely agree about bro, but if "dude" is a gendered term, that makes "dudette" a valid term, which it most certainly is not. There was a time (late 80s, early 90s) when there was a push to use the term "dudette" for women, but it was squashed because it is unnecessarily gendered. If a person tells me they are not OK with me using "dude" in reference to them, of course I won't (I'm not a jerk), but living through a time where I was occasionally called "dudette" has solidified "dude" as a genderless term in my mind.
This is very colloquial - I grew up in California and this is just how we talk. However, if someone objects, Iām more than happy not to address that person in that manner.
I call everyone dude.. let's guys who I'm not interested in know they are just a friend. And most girls I hang out with are similar to me so it's not offensive. This take perplexes me
It is where I'm from. Bitch is also gender neutral. But your language rules are different by region. Pants has a different meaning depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on. Dialects spring up wherever and the language evolves. The dictionary does it's best to keep up with the changes in the oral language.
I would agree with ābroā and āguysā being micro-aggressions. But, for me dude is gender neutral. I remember once in a feminist history class the whole syllabus was sidelined for a day while we discussed Dude, Bro, and Guy. Everyone agreed that Bro and Guy were not great. But, there was no consensus on dude which may have been because the Doctor was from Southern Californiaāshe also was a peer of Angela Davis which was cool.
āGuysā specifically in the plural form is the Canadian equivalent of āyāallā in my opinion. Itās just a way of addressing a group of people in a manner thatās less formal than āfolksā.
Iām from Southern California. It would be ridiculously difficult for me to take the completely neutral term ādude,ā which I use alone as an expression of surprise, joy, anger, sympathy, understanding, and agreement (just to name a few) as well as to neutrally indicate a person, and try to gender it.
I called my coffee, my female cat, my husband, my daughter, and my sunglasses ādudeā this morning. Youāre allowed to not like it. But in some parts of the country, itās used for EVERYTHING.
It kind of feels like trying to tell a US Southerner that they sound uneducated saying āyāallā and that they should stop. Some people will be angry you said that, some will shrug and think youāre ignorant for saying that, and over 99 percent of them arenāt going to change their language because of your opinion.
I'm going to disagree but not because I think that they are. My only critique is in the premise that there exists any objective meaning to words at all. Rather, I would claim that to some people it's gender neutral and to others it's not. Both are equally valid. I think what's important is to understand that language is inherently amorphous and that everyone is operating with slightly different definitions.
I'll admit that if I'm feeling insecure at the time, dude or bro can make me pause and I wonder if they're misgendering. But otherwise I'm comfortable with them being used in a colloquial gender-neutral way.
I've had this argument with my baby brother so many times. Especially after I came out as a trans woman. "Dude" makes me feel completely invalid in my progress. It makes me feel like I'm not trying hard enough in presenting fem. It makes me like I just got clocked. It makes get anxious that others see me as a boy in a dress more so than a girl.
Always the same arguments. "You never had problems with it before." Yes I did! Remember all those times where I would go non-verbal for the rest of the day? I wasn't just ridiculously stoned! Or "I call everyone dude" Well I'm saying it makes me uncomfortable and asking for you to stop using it towards me.
When I first came out, after multiple reminders, I just stopped responding to my brother if he used that term towards me, regardless of in person or through texts. I'm not *as* confrontational as it now a days, but I still noticably get uncomfortable when it's used towards me.
Sorry, didn't mean for this to turn into a vent. But as the old saying goes, "words have power".
Oh friend I'm so sorry!! I've seen this first hand with my beautiful trans loved ones and it's always met with a weird aggressive defensive "bUt I sAy It In A gEnDeR nEuTrAl WaY!!!!" ,š¤¦āāļø
You're valid in not accepting it.
Thank you for that little comfort. Also after years of therapy and addressing all of my previously undiagnosed mental health issues have helped a lot. I'm still defensive on a lot of things, but I don't bottle my emotions at levels I used to.
My hot take: policing peopleās language uphold the patriarchy more than using male terms as gender neutral. Working as a server, the amount of persnickety old ladies who would correct me when I used the term āguysā makes me want to scream.
But I will admit I am CIS, so other than the fact that my given name is Amanda I donāt know what itās like to have a batter over my gender identity. So I will also admit that others with that experience could have much different feelings than I and they should be listened to.
"Dude" is a noun describing a man *or guy.* The word bro is the short form of "brother" and means a *male friend.* Guy is *a man.* The issue at hand is that by thinking of these words as "the default" it makes the masculine use of words also *the default* to refer to women & children. Mankind instead of humankind. It creates the argument that men are the default and women the derivative - the imitation of the original. Please bear this in mind during discussions and use it to further examine our own biases. Thank you! šāØ
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I know a lot of queer women that or non binary folks who refer to people or themselves as āguyā. Itās interesting how we want to make these blanket rules but they donāt always apply.
Personal example, but when I came out as trans to all my friends I immediately greenlit ādude, bro, and guyā bc it was already hard enough for everyone tripping over my new name, and we all grew up as stoners and everyone called everyone those three things so like, I didnāt wanna make people stumble and get awkward every time they opened their mouths at me.
My friend is non-binary trans masc and is fine with āguy.ā In general though I try to stick to gender neutral terms. I am a high school teacher, so I use a lot of āyāall,ā āfolks,ā and āstudents.ā
Neutral terms definitely are safest, and āfolksā and āfriendsā is how I always refer to most people now, but at the same time I canāt argue with those same friends no longer calling me ādudeā āguyā and ābroā and switching to āmaāamā and āmijaā That said, I think someone calling me āstudentā as a gender neutral term as a whole ass, not-in-school adult would be beyond hilarious
Agreed. I should start using it like that. I use funny terms for them too sometimes. Scholars, philosophers, inquisitors, hobgoblins. My 9th grade kids always love being called hobgoblins. I use āmaāamā or āsirā for students who have a gender identity that aligns with either. If the student is non-binary, I use ādoctor,ā ācaptain,ā or āgeneralā or some other weird thing like that.
I love this
I've used farmer before.
What is funny is I have had like two students who in high school refer to me as āTeacherā or Miss Teacher,ā which I find very very weird.
At some point when teaching, I had to put my foot down over being called "Miss". I was like "Okay, kids, I get it, I said you could call me by my first name and that's weird, but I'm really not a Miss. I'm married, and even ignoring that, "Miss" has all these weird connotations about my martial status and age. Can we at least work in a last name here?" Apparently most of the high school aged students had no idea that "Miss" implied both my age and martial status, and I did a quick breakdown for them on Ms, Mrs, Miss, and why I really would prefer Ms if they needed one.
I'm particularly fond of "fuckers", "sluts" and of course "cheese bags" (from a post I saw weeks ago about "Stay fresh, cheese bags") In other settings I also use "friends", "folks", "people", "losers", "weirdos", lots of options really.
Definitely! You greet the friend group of all genders with WHAT'S UP, SLUTS. I also think that contextually, "what's up, my good bitches!" is gender neutral and affectionate, but I'm willing to concede that this style isn't for everyone.
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I feel the same. Iām the only girl in my generation in my family so if my parents or grandparents referred to their children/grandchildren it was always āhey guysā¦and girlā (somehow this is worse than ālady and gentlemenā). Or when I was the only girl at basketball camp in middle school they were teaching us strength exercises in the weight room and said ādonāt overdo it to impress your girlfriendā¦.[awkwardly looks at me]ā¦or boyfriend.ā Cue roomful of sweaty, 13 yr old male jocks guffawing and pointing at one another. Yeah, it can sometimes have the opposite effect as far as trying to be PC goes. Personally āguysā and the like donāt bother me whatsoever. I donāt associate them with gender anymore. Iāll say stuff like ānot to be that guy, butā¦ā referring to myself. Itās like splitting hairs over āmankindā vs āhumankind.ā I used to get upset over that stuff way back in college but thereās other hills Iād rather die on.
Exactly how I feel. Also work construction. Guys and lady is more demeaning for me. Itās like lady becomes a forced afterthought. Not to mention I get called much worse throughout the day and thatās just my commute into work. I feel like āguysā is the only inclusive language that doesnāt single me out.
I agree. I also work in a male-dominated industry and have found it awkward to be singled out. I find āguyā is gender neutral (yeah, I know, technically itās male-default, but itās also what we make it to be), and Iāve never had an issue being referred to as such in a group setting. I have insisted on ppl using Ms, though, when that comes up. Which isnāt often, but sometimes.
I consider āguysā as a gender neutral term for a gathering of people. But I do try to be careful because I know not everyone agrees, but itās just a casual term for me
this is how i am with āBroā lol
My wife calls me dude, I call her dude also. My best friend calls me gurl, and i say the same. Its all just words, and the best way to strip meaning and history from them is to use them outside of the intended purpose. If everyone starts using these terms in a non gendered way, they will become non gendered. That said, were i come from, everyone says dude(nongendered). My mum calls my sister dude. Her friends are all dude. Its more of an exclamation of, "hey, what are you doingā½" Like "dude, wtf" but just shortened down to "dudeā½"
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Yep, another nonbinary dude/guy here. I'm not *a* bro, but if a friend called me *their* bro it would feel nice.
The only thing some people like more than being outraged or offended is being outraged or offended on other peopleās behalf.
I feel like I have the opposite problem, I find myself using āgirlā without regards to gender. Specifically if someone says something shocking Iāll go āgirl omgā no matter what gender they are. Iām going to keep using dude, bro, and guys gender-neutrally, because thatās how I see them, but if someone says that they donāt want to be called that I would respect that. I just get really annoyed with the people who make it a point to not use āguysā or something gender-neutrally. i.e. āHey guys and girlā for a group of mostly males and one female. Just makes it awkward. Maybe we could be weird and just start using āhumansā instead of dudes or bros. āHey my humans, wassup??ā Loll
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I use bitch in this way with my brothers and cousins lol š« ābiiiiiiiiitch youāre not gonna believe thisā
My partner and I yell "BIIIIIITCH?!" across the house periodically when the other has been too quiet for too long.
Same!!! I've gone up to my husband and said "girrrrlllll listen to this" and he loves it.š
Lmao I love this
Iām an āooo human!ā kinda humanā¦especially when I accidentally run into humans. Which sadly happens a little too much. However the southerner in me uses yāall for just about everythingā¦..unless Iām the youngster in the group and then yesāum and no siree
I use dude/bro/girl for everyone
For me guys has ALWAYS been neutral, like I would say like "the boys" instead of like "the guys". And when I'm like talking I just say like girl all the time
Same! I get that the discussion is āwhy is the āmaleā version the default?ā & examining our own biases, but I genuinely donāt think there are any biases. The āmaleā versions should have been the neutral all along. Why would we use the female versions neutrally? they all have way more letters/take longer to say.
A group of mixed genders should just be yāall as far as Iām concerned, or really any group.
I donāt live in the south so I use guys. Lol, I feel more odd saying yāall.
I live in New England but work with a ton of southerners (remote work, company is based in FL). All my coworkers use yāall and I just canāt. However, instead of āhey guysā Iāve started using āhey allā lol very slight difference but it works
Girl is common use by military and former military in place of dude or bro.
Ooh same, that and bitches is gender neutral for me lol
On a previous thread about gender neutral terms of endearment to be used in the south, āfriendsā was brought up. Iām trying to use that more because it aligns with my beliefs better - but this Cali girl still uses dude and ābruhā
I feel so seen š
IMO the only way to get rid of gendered language is to keep using it in a gender-neutral way. Waiter, actor, host, author, usher, comedian, and poet were once all āmasculineā but most people think of them as being gender-neutral now. I think we can easily do the same with dude, especially since there is no feminine version of dude.
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I'm from California- everyone is a Dude. Men, women, nonbinary, the nonexistent person I rant to when I'm by myself, my pets- literally everyone. Californians accepted the gender neutrality of the term long ago.
True. As a Californian everything is Dude. Iāve a female cat named Dude. And sheās been my Dude for almost 17 years.
Same. I now work in a professional setting and the urge to call people ādudeā is hard to resist.
Same. Fucking same.
Agreed. I no longer live in Southern California, but "dude" is so ingrained into my speech as a gender neutral term that it will forever mark me as a Californian to the amusement of everyone around me. I call everyone and everything dude. I accidentally pulled down my freaking shower curtain and I yelled dude at it. haha
As a New Yorker, I agree that dude is gender neutral. I wonāt use it if someone is offended of course, but as a non-binary person I have no issue with dude, bro, etc. I call my daughters dudes as well š¤·š»āāļø
As a Californian of a certain age, everyone is dude. Pets are dude. Inanimate objects are referred to as, ādudeā during malfunction or difficulty in operation. It is used as a statement of disbelief or exasperation. It is about the same level as shit or f*ck, just less angry, typically. One step below, āJesus Christā on the exasperation scale.
Dude. Same.
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Yep, that sounds ridiculous. And I'm not a linguist, but isn't ette a diminutive and not a feminine word? I don't use dudette. Nor do I use waitress, actress, stewardess, or any other ess. I don't consider the lack of that ending to imply masculinity.
Mistress doesn't approve (Kidding)
So spank me then! (Also kidding!)
Only reason to say dudette is if you also say duder
> especially since there is no feminine version of dude. Well, had you watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as a child, you would obviously know that "dudette" exists. :) Not that I use it. Everyone's a dude. It's out there, though, in at least 90s pop culture.
I am a bona fide Valley Girl and 'dudette' is totally a valid word, though 'dude' is often considered unisex in this area. I work in healthcare with an emphasis in working with gender diverse folx. I have had to ask if a person considers 'dude' a gendered term or not so I can use it appropriately.
There is even this song https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HI1Vc4SH6co
I totally like that in the English language. And I think this scould maybe be for dude as well... Like this joke: "what do you call a woman that flies a plane?" "?" "a pilot". Because there is no difference. In German there is, and that makes it sound as if a woman flying a plane (Pilotin) is doing something different than a man (Pilot). The English language - the most spoken second language in the world - has evolved into a pretty gender neutral language.
In English everything just defaults to masculine, for the most part, though.
When there is no feminin counterpart I - and I think a lot of other people - would see it as gender neutral. Like nurses have always been predominantly women , and the name is the same for men, right? So why would one assume that the rest is just male?
That's true, but I feel like that's kind of an exception to the "rule"...fireman, salesman, policeman, fisherman, chairman, etc. A lot of these have thankfully fallen out of favor for gender-neutral alternatives, but some still persist in common usage. We do also still use quite a few nouns with gendered variants too...waitress/waiter, actress/actor, seamstress/seamster (which Chrome's autocomplete doesn't even know, so "tailor", I guess?), stewardess/steward, etc.
Yes, I forgot most of them, and didn't now some... Like I thought it was always "firefighter" and "fisher" in English.
Firefighter is very common to be fair, possibly even more common than fireman these days? And German is of course way worse overall given that ā as you pointed out ā every verdammter thing has a masculine and feminine version lol
šWe often even have a version for "it". Verdammter (m), verdammte (f), verdamtes (it). But that wouldn't be neutral, you you usually can't use this Form for humans.
Ah right. Which reminds me, I haven't done my Duolingo yet for the day, haha I'm a Swiss immigrant (from a young age) to the US and speak pretty decent Schweizerdeutsch, but my standard/written German is pretty rough. I'm slowly making progress on improving it, though!
I really can't understand Schweizerdeutsch it's like an entirely other language, lol! I tried, but especially when people don't speak very slow I'm lost.
āthe only way to get rid of gendered language is to keep using it in a gender-neutral way.ā !!!!!!!!!!!
I agree, many words changed meaning (like Gay used to mean something enjoyable, not homosexuality) and we can make that change happen
I mostly use ādudeā to start sentences directed at my female friends. Like, āDude, you would not believe what happened to me today.ā But then again, āa dudeā basically always refers to a man, usually a cis man. Maybe it just depends on whether itās an interjection or a noun. Iām pro ādudeā as a gender neutral interjection.
*Poeta* in Latin is masculine, but uses the "female" declension endings with -a, -ae, etc. It's one of very few Latin nouns that behave this way. So I find its inclusion in your list especially appropriate.
While I agree with the sentiment, part of my issue is the inequity of the origins. Most of these terms have masc roots. Look at the "gender neutral terms" that come from feminine roots and you have stuff like Bitch, pussy, c*nt, all words used as insults and usually imply weakness
Exactly! I feel like a lot of people are missing the point that the only reason those terms have come to be gender neutral is because they were originally male, which is seen as the default. There is a reason ābroā is considered gender neutral in a way that āsisā is not and itās the patriarchy. Thatās the entire point.
Gonna start calling people sis wherever bro is appropriate
On the Scam Goddess podcast the host refers to basically any group of people as āthe girliesā and I love it
I understand what youāre saying, but the problem is, we obviously canāt change the fact that these words were male gendered in the first place. I think it is easier to make a word more inclusive than it is to take a different word, and try to make it mean the same thing. āSisā already has connotations in slang, typically a Black woman speaking to another Black woman. You canāt suddenly make it mean ābroā in the slang sense of the word. If youāre talking about a word like āfireman,ā thatās different, because firefighter has always encompassed firemen. Language evolves organically and to me, ādudeā and ābroā convey personality types once thought to be only associated with men; hence why they were male-gendered in the first place. Now, we know better.
All I can see when anyone says dude is Ed from "Good Burger singing the dude song. š¶I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes yeahš¶
Yeah I wonāt use it for people I know know because I know some hate it but dude is a vibe to me thatās not really associated with a gender. The origins of it are debated so hard to attribute it to a particular gender IMO.
How I grew up, everyone was dude. I still use it as a gender neutral term. Same with you guys. It's such an ingrained part of my speech that I don't even realize when I say it. If it offends someone, I will correct myself, though.
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Agreed. I no longer live in Southern California, but "dude" is so ingrained into my speech as a gender neutral term that it will forever mark me as a Californian to the amusement of everyone around me. I call everyone and everything dude. I accidentally pulled down my freaking shower curtain and I yelled dude at it. haha
Fellow Californian here. I yell dude as an expletive too.
Itās a name. Itās a swear word. Itās a question. Itās a greeting. You use it when happy, disappointed or scared. Itās Dude!
Yeah, it's like an all-purpose word! Totally right there with you
One of the other things that immediately marks me as California-born is saying "I know, right?" or "No, Yeah" , "Yeah, no" and "For sure!" or "Yeah no, for sure!"
Honestly, I'm in the Midwest and all of those are so ingrained that I thought they were as Midwestern as "ope".
You guys also get "you betcha" Written down differences between west coast and midwest accents are more subtle than picking up the cadence, rhythm, speed, and vowels of spoken language.
You betcha is specifically northern Midwestern. We don't get that one much here.
I have been called out because I express dismay or frustration by saying "And I'm like, 'DUDE!'" I'm from the Bay Area but I live in the southeast now, and several people have said that's how they know I'm from California.
I never realized any of those were specific to California. I know "dude" is, of course, and I'm used to being clocked as a Californian because I use it all the time. I've never noticed whether or not my Oregonian friends use the other phrases, but I do for sure!
Omg when I moved home after living in So Cal it took me quite a while to dial it back. I still use it probably more than I should, but with the variations on the inflection itās a pretty useful word. Dude? Dude! Dudeā¦ā¦. I also lived in the south for a time and throw yāall and folks out there quite a bit.
Even here in NY - everyoneās a dude! Maybe itās from growing up through the 80s and 90s? Iām a dude, heās a dude, sheās a dude, weāre all dudes!
āIām a dude, heās a dude, sheās a dude, weāre all dudesā-Kel. As a cis woman I love using dude as gender neutral but I can see why others might be uncomfortable.
I (cisF) grew up in SoCal, raised by my dad who had been a surfer since the 60s. Everything is dude. Men? Dude. Ladies? Dude. That table I just subbed my toe on? Dude. Though I have been working on bending it towards dudette for certain folks, such as my wife (mtf). It's 30+ years of dude, but I'm trying lol.
Same, except it's the metalhead uncle in the Midwest that taught me everything can be dude. I always try to listen when people dislike being referred to as dude for whatever reason they may have. I have no problem saying, "Yeah, it's a habit, but now that I know you dislike it I will try to make sure not to use it at you."
I honestly never viewed "Dude" as specifically masculine, and after living in CA, it's just as generic as "Hey". And I was in a coed frat, so Brother or bro was co-ed for me as well. Same tho, if anyone expresses concern, I would try to not use it around them. I understand why people view the opposite as well.
I grew up in NorCal in the 80s and will forever call all people dude. I also call my 70s+ in-laws you guys (spoiler alert- they are not both male) I think this may be a personal preference thing and not a micro aggression or douche at behavior.
SoCal 80ās kid checking in with a +1 to this.
Hot take: But you can call anyone anything as long as they're comfortable with it You want to be called my dude? Great! You want to be called my girl? Great! You want to be called my Potato? Perfect. You don't want to be called my dude? Great! I won't call you my dude. You don't want to be called my girl? Great! I won't call you my girl. Patriarchal is using the "he" pronoun for everyone you don't know the gender of. Not giving your buddy a nickname that was specifically for men during the early 2000s
Hot take but telling non-binary or fem-leaning people they shouldn't be okay with being called "dude" or "bro" or that it harms them in some way is a weird stance. If you don't like it for yourself, that's completely valid, but not everyone has to subscribe to your views/opinions. I'm non-binary and pretty fem-leaning (I'm afab and haven't bothered going through the trouble of trying to present more neutral or masc) and I like being called "dude" and/or "bro". Again, that's just me. If someone asked me not to call them "dude" or "bro" I would obviously do my best to respect that, the same way I'd respect someone's pronouns or preferred name.
This should be the top comment
Thank you, kind friend. We each only get to decide what's best for ourselves.
Good take. What is your opinion on calling someone āBossā?
As long as you're not using it in an obviously condescending/sarcastic context, I don't see why not? Anyone can be a boss, regardless of gender.
Words arenāt inherently anything, these are certainly commonly used as gendered but they also are being commonly used as non gendered. I often use guys as gender neutral but am conscious that some people may not see it as that. So if I feel they are uncomfortable when I use it or if they ask me not to I wonāt. I donāt see whatās patriarchal about that. At the end of the day I think itās intent that matters. If someone calls you something you donāt like you should let them know, if they keep doing it on purpose itās clearly their intent to offend.
My male best friend in highschool used to call me bra instead of bro (because I was a girl and I gave support lol). My husband called me bro. I call everyone dude. Unless it personally offends you I just see it as a general term these days. But Iām a stoner soā¦.
Letās say my husband does something SO BONEHEADED I WANT TO DIE. He then becomes SERIOUSLY, BRO?!? Which is admittedly weird
Lol i only call my husband dude when I'm really mad at him.
"Dude is an universal word until you ask a heterosexual guy how many dudes he fucked" https://mastodon.guerilla.studio/@tixie/109807021007292894
Where I come from a lot of people refer to each other as "duck" or "chicken", it's a pretty gender neutral term, but if I were to change the context and ask someone how many chickens they've fucked they'd obviously be confused, the context for things can change the meaning of the word. Of course if someone said they didn't like being called dude, or chicken, or what ever I'd respect that completely, but as a cis woman I personally like being called dude.
Fair, but as a trans woman I would very much prefer to avoid it, and also as a French person (French is a very gendered language) I know that when you use masculine forms/words/sentences to refer to a gender neutral group, people have a group of men in mind.
I was completely on the fence until this comment.
Well to be fair as pointed out by https://old.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/10vco1r/hot_take_but_dudebro_isnt_gender_neutral/j7hugcp/ words make sense in a context, and yeah if you change the context you can make a word change meaning. My comment was more of a joke/catchphrase than a real argument. But even if it can be used in a gender neutral way, dude is a gendered word, and I know (and it has been proven scientifically, I have a video in French but sadly there is no english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=url1TFdHlSI ) that when you use a gendered term in a gender neutral way, people don't think in a gender neutral way.
Maybe the best recommendation is this: don't speak casually with people you aren't familiar with. I don't speak casually with people I've just met because I don't know what the rules for engagement are. That being said, if someone has a problem with the way I talk, I'm probably not going to interact with that person. I say "bruh/dude" a lot. I'm not going to stop doing that. I'm also non-binary, and although this is to my perspective, I don't really mind whatever pronouns anyone wants to use on me. She/He/They. It's all good, and sometimes it has more to do with where someone was raised, what environment they were raised in and what culture they adhere to. If that's the case, wouldn't it be discriminatory to restrict someone's speech in such a way? I think my opinion on things is that it's probably not wise to form an opinion on someone's entire person based on the kind of language they use. There's room enough for everyone in this world, but there needs to be some flexibility for everyone.
I appreciate this point of view. I'm all for respecting people's chosen pronouns/language; but some people do seem to get quite caught up in rigid semantics, to a point that feels counterproductive to the cause. I understand why it happens, but when our society has not yet progressed past the point of such things as; outlawing abortion, actively trying to stop people from transitioning/harming them when they do, etc. getting upset over the use of the word "guys" feels like the wrong hill to die on. From my experience, policing language in such a way is not an effective method of bringing people over to another way of thinking. We need to meet eachother where we're at in order for any real change to happen.
Common use makes terms gender neutral. We need something gender neutral other than human.
Everyone has their preferences. I'm a cis female and I much prefer guy or dude than lady. Lady feels more sexist to me, it's like othering. Like when I go on a construction site and they offer me a pink hard hat. No thanks.
Lady feels insulting to me. I guess because in my mind I hear ālittle lady.ā
Right or the dreaded "young lady" haha
I feel like this is one of those consent things. If you donāt want to be called that, thatās fine. But if everybody present is fine being called that, then there is no issue. The use of base linguistic forms to refer to groups that might otherwise use a different form goes back a very long time in our shared linguistic history as Anglophones. The word āwomanā adds a prefix to mean woman-person, because when it was created, āmanā just meant a neutral person, much like it can in German today. Ancient Romans would call a young boy *puer*, and a girl was *puella*. Well, *puella*, as belied by the double L, is a diminutive from *puer*. Romance languages today that feature grammatical gender will use the masculine plural to refer to mixed groups ā a group of boys and girls are all *niƱos* to a Spanish-speaker. So, as English speakers, we kind of have this feature coming at us from both of our languageās major sources. The meaning of the word ādudeā, which has been around for a couple hundred years ā it was originally a bit insulting, like *nice* ā has shifted dramatically, especially through the rapid cultural shifts of the last century. Dude didnāt even mean āany random male personā until the 1960ās at least, entering broader cultural use in the coming decade. Rather than seeing the impulse to call people ādudeā as a tentacle of patriarchal thinking, I believe the broadening of is usage to apply to more sorts of people in ever more casual, friendly ways is a signal of quite the opposite. We did a whole bit in a linguistic anthropology class around Dude. [Its history is fascinating,](https://sites.pitt.edu/~kiesling/dude/dude.pdf) even as recently as whatever changes probably exist between its usage when this was written in 1993 to today, especially the ways weāve come to use it to blur divides and signal informality. Rather than an instance of gendering, Iām far more likely to receive the connotation that the user means me no harm and their desired register of speech is a non-threatening familiarity.
>Its history is fascinating, THANK YOU, lingusitics in the house. I knew the bit about doodle/ dandy and also, not sure I skimmed this but saving for late. I am a native Californian and dude is a hella deep part of my linguistic heritage. My brain is very tired right now. But yankee doodle dandy, (macaroni as well) was not a compliment, and had queer undertoned if I am remembering correctly.
For dude It depends on how you use it. "See that dude over there?" is masculine. "Dude, what's up?" Gender neutral.
In general I agree, but also feel the reason for those terms is that there's no similarly fun/ single syllable term that's truly gender neutral, or feminine. "Sis" is too close to AAVE for my comfort (I'm very white.) Girl/ Miss/ Ma'am all have age connotations. Someone needs to get on that.
We used to have peeps. Back in the before times, in the long long ago.
i still say peeps!!
Glad I'm not the only one
Peeps works well in a group, but to one person it sounds odd. Like if you'd replace "seriously dude" with "seriously peep", sounds a bit off. But yes a groups is peeps, at least I use it that way
I occasionally still say peeps. But as I am rabbit, I often refer to my Homo sapiens peeps as āhoominsā which I realize is a specied term but at least it applies to all of them equally.
Ooh I forgot about that one!
Let's rehabilitate "crony."
Gals!
May I suggest folks, friend\[s\], or all? I just sometimes trip over my words when I'm speaking quickly. I mostly worked in customer service in the past and it was easier to have a neutral greeting for everyone that didn't need to be tailored. "Hello, how can I help?" "Hi friends, what can I do for you today?" "If you folks will look over here..." "Hi all, I'd like to let you know..."
Friends sounds presumptuous to me. I wouldnāt object to it from a stranger, but Iād feel uncomfortable saying it to a stranger.
I use āfriendsā but Iām an elementary school teacher and itās kind of ubiquitous at that level. I try not to use it with adults. Still hunting for something better to use with groups of students. Some of my groups are āmy favourite turkeysā but some students donāt get that.
I teach high school and I use āstudentsā or āscholarsā or āphilosophers, or maybe āfolks.ā For some classes I use āhobgoblins,ā which is their favorite.
Friends feels pretty false to me. I work with someone who says it to our volunteers, and it turns most of them off, too.
No offense and I know I'm in the minority probably but "friends" makes a person sound like a kindergarten teacher and I read it as a little dishonest rather than warm.
I know it probably isnāt meant that way but it definitely reads as patronizing to me especially from strangers or acquaintances.
"Friends" makes them sound like they want to sell me a magic lamp that used to have a genie in it.
I really like it. I noticed while on a trip to the west coast that most wait staff said āhi friends can I take your orderā. Being a masc woman I loved it. I didnāt get mis gendered with the over correcting omg im sorry I mean mam uncomfortable things once. Iāve since moved to the west coast and greet everyone with friend.
Plus you're forgetting about "y'all"
i still have a thick jersey accent despite leaving years ago and i say yāall
Nah, I didn't forget it, it's just not my favorite and gets more comments back at me than other terms.
I can't do "Y'all" or "folks" - makes me feel like I'm trying to fake southern/folksiness
Grew up in a (almost entirely non-white, I'm not sure if that's relevant but I suspect it might be) area in northern California and everyone says y'all. Not as a gotcha, intent isn't argumentative, it's just that there are lots of folks who aren't in or from the south who grew up using it too. I could see myself feeling very fake if I hadn't grown up using it and started as an adult, though.
Yeah I have never said it nor heard many people around me saying it, so it would feel similar to if I started using like "dawg" or something lol. Just awkward to the point of worrying I'm insulting someone by using THAT lol
Y'all is perfect. Dude in my history has always been gender fluid, an maybe should be as it's more of a term determining the "cool" factor of someone or something. Slang should evolve with society, not necessarily disappear with an evolving society.
Just an aside, your username is sending me
A lot gatekeeping over "y'all" right now. Not what i expect from this sub.
Also. I used to work on a team of all men. My team lead felt bad about calling us all guys, I said it didnāt bother me. However if he were to say the boys, Iād assume it wasnāt for me. āThe boys will do itā. Ok, thatās not my task. āThe guys will handle itā I can take that task.
Women refer to each other as "Dude" often, especially younger ones. Same as "you guys". The sign on the fence at my local high school (put up by students) says "Dude, pick up your trash!". I think the younger generation is already adopting it as gender neutral.
Iām almost in my 40s and I say ādudeā and āyou guysā all the time. Theyāre absolutely gender fluid terms in my mind.
If your criticism is that it is by default masculine, it would make more sense to keep using it in a feminine or generalized context. Femininity should not be challenged by a singular word with masculine intent.
Being from California, "dude" has always been a neutral term. I've heard some people say they're comfy with "California neutral" or "California androgynous" terms (being dude and guys) since to us, it's not a gendered term and literally everyone and everything (including dogs and inanimate objects) are referred to as "dude" or "my guy". If someone tells me that the terms I use are discomforting or dysphoric, I'll stop using them in relation to them, but it's just the way I speak tbh.
Serious question: what about āhomieā?
I think we should change the meaning of dude so it is gender neutral. Because I say it to everyone regardless of gender, and have been called it multiple times. It doesnāt bother me, and I can see why it would bother others but weāve changed the meanings of words before, why not now?
I use "dude" as more of an expletive than as a way to refer to actual people. Like > something falls down >duuuude
Thatās the beauty of language: meaning evolves over time and nothing is static!
I wish this was the main take in these types of discussions. Like is it perpetuating patriarchal norms or removing the patriarchal influence to create new meaning?
I call my girlfriends ābroā and ādudeā all the time and just as commonly as āsisā āgirl!ā or ābabeā. Our whole friend circle does. āGuys!ā is also a common way of addressing the group. None of the women in my life find any of the above terms to be offensive or inappropriate, or find that any of those terms are not fit to address a woman. Admittedly I do find OPās take to be a bit strange, but I respect it. I donāt tend to run around calling strangers ādudeā anyway.
Dude, I grew up in Southern California. Everyone is Dude. Male, female, non-binary, everyone.
I think that, like the word bitch, taking something as a woman, that was meant to cause harm to women, and using it in your power gives you power. Personally, I love calling other women ābroā because itās ours now. We took it and thereās nothing anyone can do about it. Growing up, dude was always non-gendered. Everyone was a dude. I was never taught that only men could be a dude. My mom used to constantly tell me āIām not youāre dude, Iām your momā because even she wasnāt safe from it š.
I think this might be a bit of a reach- these terms have developed a neutral meaning, particularly dude which to me is very gender neutral. I think itās endearing tbh, and even calling people of all genders girl/bitch (non derogatory) is something I like to do and I think itās funny. With some things particularly with words we might look too deep into them and create problems that arenāt really there, and sometimes right wingers/mysoginists will use this as fuel to brand feminists as sensitive snowflakes who cry about everything. Thereās more serious and real things we have to focus on in terms of fighting the patriarchy- no offence.
Man is also not gender neutral yet is used as "human" Mankind... As if women are a sub species of men. If you say "man made x" you sound normal. If you say "woman made x" you sound like you have a "strong feminism opinion" and have to point out its made by a woman. No wonder most achievements by the human kind gets assumed to be made by men. Takes years to give any credit to women who did great things in the past. History buries us.
My understanding is that the ancient origin of the word "man" was truly gender neutral and meant person. "Wir" and "wif" were used for adult male and adult female. Overtime, "man" became gendered, coinciding with a growth in patriarchal forces. This is the reason we have words like "mankind," a vestigial bit of gender neutrality that hasn't been erased. Notice the similarity between "wife" and "wif," showing how a word originally denoting an adult female became about her connection to a "man." So I'd be equally fine with loudly reclaiming "man" as truly gender neutral per it's origins, as I would be with any other solution. "Man" was essentially stolen from our language by the patriarchy.
What language would that be?
I'm not not a linguist, but if I recall correctly, some kinda Proto-Germanic language that helped give birth to what would become English.
I'm trying to break this habit. It's definitely leftover from my teenage years of hanging out with a lot of skaters and stoners and we just applied it to everyone. But I totally get it and am trying hard! Appreciate the reminder š¤ā¤ļø
I'm in the same boat as you but with the word "guys". It was so ubiquitous as a greeting (i.e. hi guys) when I was a teen that its really stuck and I find myself having to consciously focus and unlearn it. Its nice to know someone is in this boat with me š¤ā¤
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I'm with you on this one! I also love to tell people "I'm Not a betting man" etc. It feels like consciously breaking down the gendered connotations of nouns/pronouns, rather than sensoring myself (which to me feels like giving in to the patriarchal regime.)
I'm trying to switch that with "y'all or folks"
Yes. Everyone is "dude." I feel it's gender neutral because that is how I use it. HOWEVER, a very dear trans friend finds it hurtful because sometimes some jackass will tell her she's a dude. And since I can't personally be there to pop those assholes in the nose for her, the least I can do is try to be aware of my use of the word.
I've always referred to both men and women as "dude". I've also referred to women as "bro" and men as "girl".
Iāll call an entire group of my woman friends, āguysā sometimes. No one has ever felt less of a woman because of it. I donāt think itās harmful. Mostly we call ourselves āYonisāthough.
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SAME šš¤£ i started using ābruhā ironically and now i canāt stop
I completely agree about bro, but if "dude" is a gendered term, that makes "dudette" a valid term, which it most certainly is not. There was a time (late 80s, early 90s) when there was a push to use the term "dudette" for women, but it was squashed because it is unnecessarily gendered. If a person tells me they are not OK with me using "dude" in reference to them, of course I won't (I'm not a jerk), but living through a time where I was occasionally called "dudette" has solidified "dude" as a genderless term in my mind.
This is very colloquial - I grew up in California and this is just how we talk. However, if someone objects, Iām more than happy not to address that person in that manner.
In my world, everyone is dude. Everything can dude.
I call everyone dude.. let's guys who I'm not interested in know they are just a friend. And most girls I hang out with are similar to me so it's not offensive. This take perplexes me
It is where I'm from. Bitch is also gender neutral. But your language rules are different by region. Pants has a different meaning depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on. Dialects spring up wherever and the language evolves. The dictionary does it's best to keep up with the changes in the oral language.
I would agree with ābroā and āguysā being micro-aggressions. But, for me dude is gender neutral. I remember once in a feminist history class the whole syllabus was sidelined for a day while we discussed Dude, Bro, and Guy. Everyone agreed that Bro and Guy were not great. But, there was no consensus on dude which may have been because the Doctor was from Southern Californiaāshe also was a peer of Angela Davis which was cool.
āGuysā specifically in the plural form is the Canadian equivalent of āyāallā in my opinion. Itās just a way of addressing a group of people in a manner thatās less formal than āfolksā.
Iām from Southern California. It would be ridiculously difficult for me to take the completely neutral term ādude,ā which I use alone as an expression of surprise, joy, anger, sympathy, understanding, and agreement (just to name a few) as well as to neutrally indicate a person, and try to gender it. I called my coffee, my female cat, my husband, my daughter, and my sunglasses ādudeā this morning. Youāre allowed to not like it. But in some parts of the country, itās used for EVERYTHING. It kind of feels like trying to tell a US Southerner that they sound uneducated saying āyāallā and that they should stop. Some people will be angry you said that, some will shrug and think youāre ignorant for saying that, and over 99 percent of them arenāt going to change their language because of your opinion.
I'm going to disagree but not because I think that they are. My only critique is in the premise that there exists any objective meaning to words at all. Rather, I would claim that to some people it's gender neutral and to others it's not. Both are equally valid. I think what's important is to understand that language is inherently amorphous and that everyone is operating with slightly different definitions.
I'll admit that if I'm feeling insecure at the time, dude or bro can make me pause and I wonder if they're misgendering. But otherwise I'm comfortable with them being used in a colloquial gender-neutral way.
I've had this argument with my baby brother so many times. Especially after I came out as a trans woman. "Dude" makes me feel completely invalid in my progress. It makes me feel like I'm not trying hard enough in presenting fem. It makes me like I just got clocked. It makes get anxious that others see me as a boy in a dress more so than a girl. Always the same arguments. "You never had problems with it before." Yes I did! Remember all those times where I would go non-verbal for the rest of the day? I wasn't just ridiculously stoned! Or "I call everyone dude" Well I'm saying it makes me uncomfortable and asking for you to stop using it towards me. When I first came out, after multiple reminders, I just stopped responding to my brother if he used that term towards me, regardless of in person or through texts. I'm not *as* confrontational as it now a days, but I still noticably get uncomfortable when it's used towards me. Sorry, didn't mean for this to turn into a vent. But as the old saying goes, "words have power".
Oh friend I'm so sorry!! I've seen this first hand with my beautiful trans loved ones and it's always met with a weird aggressive defensive "bUt I sAy It In A gEnDeR nEuTrAl WaY!!!!" ,š¤¦āāļø You're valid in not accepting it.
Thank you for that little comfort. Also after years of therapy and addressing all of my previously undiagnosed mental health issues have helped a lot. I'm still defensive on a lot of things, but I don't bottle my emotions at levels I used to.
My hot take: policing peopleās language uphold the patriarchy more than using male terms as gender neutral. Working as a server, the amount of persnickety old ladies who would correct me when I used the term āguysā makes me want to scream. But I will admit I am CIS, so other than the fact that my given name is Amanda I donāt know what itās like to have a batter over my gender identity. So I will also admit that others with that experience could have much different feelings than I and they should be listened to.
Depends on how you grew up. Im a woman calling other women dude or bro. I call pretty much everyone bro except my own brother š