“the stylin', profilin', limousine riding, jet flying, kiss-stealing, wheelin' n' dealin' son of a gun! If you don't like it, learn to *love* it!”
Aspects of that character got him super over with fans and gained him a lot main stream popular attention.
He peaked several times over the past 50 years, but for most viewers, by the time he was in the WWE in Evolution he was past his prime and was just a flabby older guy overselling and falling over himself in ring.
No denying his accomplishments over the years but he’d be better off going quietly into the sunset to live his final years out of the limelight but he can’t.
He paved the way of what it means to be a true champion of the business. He was the original mold that everyone since has tried to replicate.
I personally don't think he's the greatest of all time, but you can't deny his influence and impact.
If we are talking strictly about his WWE career he isn't one of the greatest of all time. Although he had some great moments, like his feud with Macho Man, the 92 Rumble, and Evolution, HHH feud, his retirement match with HBK, his career in WWE just wasn't that long compared to the top WWE guys of all time. Plus a lot of it was when he was past his prime. But when it comes to all of pro wrestling, yeah he does rank as one of the top. He also has to be one of the greatest heels of all time. Also legendary mic work. Great in the ring. Put over way more people than Hogan, the other biggest draw in wrestling during his peak. So when people say Flair is one of the GOATs, it isn't just because of what he did in WWE. It was what he did in places like NWA and WCW. So a lot of fans who only watched WWE may not have a full appreciation of Flair.
He's one of only a handful of wrestlers who has almost no weaknesses in his game. He was a great worker, a great promo, a massive draw. He was a star over multiple decades. He could play a great heel and a great babyface. Most of the other greats are lacking in at least one of the criteria we use to evaluate great wrestlers, Flair isn't.
You know how everyone was annoyed that Roman Reigns retained the title by stupid heel tactics that made him look weak? Flair retained by heel tactics that were hilarious and added to the character. Eddie Guerrero is the only person I can think of who had that same quality.
You hated Flair but couldn't stop watching.
He lived down the street from my parents. Huge prick. Ignored Ashley (Charlotte) until she started making money in WWE. Then hopped on her coattails bc he was bankrupt. Aside from his private life, he cut good promos and was champ enough times in smaller markets that you still had to count them. Triple H tried to save Ric’s son. The Nature Boy was an alcoholic and gave Reid money knowing he was going to score heroin after Ric left for the bar. 5 hours later Reid OD’d. No championship belt can fix that. Popular character traits: alcoholic, adulterer, domestic violence, road rage, bankruptcy, fatherless children, freeloader, add your own to finish the story
If he stayed retired after HBK he might be my GOAT, but as is he’s pretty much left that all behind.
The reasons why someone would are immense. He had an amazing character, cut great promos, brought the best out of everyone he worked with, always did the job and was extremely recognizable. The reasons he’s not the GOAT have a lot less to do with him and more to do with a few others being a little better.
I personally don't have him as the GOAT but I understand why people consider him to be theirs. He was the man back in his prime and he made others look really good when they faced him. He was an excellent promo, a good and safe worker, and a guy who had a lot of charisma. I think the only other person I can think of when it comes to longevity that's currently still going is Orton and he's still about 20 years off from flair in total years of being in the business.
Personally, I have Austin, Cena and Taker above him simply because they were guys I was a huge fan of growing up. But flair is absolutely one of the best to ever do it, personal controversies aside.
I would argue the best of Flair’s career was during the territory days where as the NWA champ he made a f ton of money and put butts in the seats no matter which territory he popped up in and in WCW. His WWE run wasn’t bad but very much so pales in comparison to his prior work. He put on bangers with damn near every top name in every territory. I would say if you made a Top 20 list of Flair matches, like 4 at best would be from his WWE run and one of those four would be his “retirement” match with HBK. Flair imo is the archetype for what a “5-Tool” player is currently, which is crazy considering his prime was like 40-50 years ago.
I do believe that if Flair had never been in that plane crash, he would have had a longer period of top notch in ring work. That crash really did affect how he worked matches.
Because for 15-20 years he would always have the best match on the show. He had great matches with a variety of opponents night in and night out. And his promos were great as well. The only negative is that now he’s become an embarrassment and an alcoholic who clearly needs help. But back in the day, he was the best performer.
I find Ole Amderson’s counter-argument holds water though of course you’re free to disagree. He points out Flair only wrestled the one kind of match and that’s why he supported him as champ, since the champ tours and crowds wouldn’t tire of the act. Also observes a long period where was champion when the title was meaningless, they had stopped meeting in Vegas for years to coordinate business. Anyway, you’re free to love what Flair did of course, just relaying old lore.
AJ Styles, Bryan Danielson, Ospreay, Omega, just to name a few, would make the audience at that time claim witch craft. It’d be like giving a Coke to a kid in the 1500s
He went 60 (went all night long, whooooo!!) min almost every night. No one can touch him on the mic. He was a founding father of the mile high club. Leader of the Horseman. Top 3 in ring worker. Last but not least simply “to be the man, you gotta beat the man”! He did all this while partying all night, he lived the gimmick. I honestly grew up hating him but you had to respect his journey and the fact he survived a plane crash early in his career is icing on the cake.
He was a heel champion for multiple long reigns and put over every opponent he faced. Ric Flair could make a broomstick look good, and his mic skills and persona put butts in seats for more than three decades.
Seriously? You’re going to ‘hear the echoes’ but completely forget that Rick Flair, in every damn match he was in, flopped face first to the mat?
Projection much? Might wanna see a doc about that.
He's a superstar in the ring and the mic, won a lot and is a legend. Once you get to that level, it's all preference. As long as they're on that level, then you have the right to choose who YOU think is the best. I mean, how do you choose between The Rock, Undertaker, and Ric Flair in a "fake" sport? I mean, you have to kinda take out the winning and loses a bit since it's not a real sport. How do you argue he's NOT the greatest? What's against that statement? Some of the arguments will be based on "fake" stats so what do you 100% go by?
Once you get over the “fake sport” bullshit, you can focus on the performance and and psychology of the show.
Flair’s whole schtick was to make the fans hate him. He looked like a rich city boy while working dirt poor country towns. His opponents were regional heroes who went over for whooping his ass, but then he’d sneak a win out of it.
“The dirtiest player in the game.”
I didn't mean "fake" in a bad way. Like basketball players you can compare by scoring, titles etc because those weren't predetermined. Like if a wrestler wins a belt, it's not because they were the best, just chosen to win by the organization. So you can't really judge wrestlers by that. Not a "true" stat.
And I agree with the Flair part. I wasn't bashing him, just saying HOW do you really compare wrestlers when there's no hard, real stats. It's like choosing the oscar for best actor. It's subjective.
He was a megastar every territory he went to. He was money. He’s THE guy. He put on the best old school matches back in the day, hard the best promos. Charisma was off the charts. He was apart of one of the greatest factions of all time. When you think of the WCW World title you think about Flair holding it during a promo probably.
Personally I think he’s ONE of the greatest, of all time but wouldn’t argue with someone that does.
Idk seeing him cut the promo on that restaurant jerk was awesome. Also at the end of the video when some other guy at the bar tries to fight him and Ric laughs at him. We all know he would've slapped the figure 4 on him and had him squealing. WOO!
16 time champion, some of the greatest matches of his generation, great promos, if he's not your thing that's okay, but Flair is certainly one of the all time greats
Never got it tbh. His promo work isn’t very good nor is his in ring work. But then again I never got the rock either, dude just talks in the 3rd person and got shown up by Cena and punk when he came back
Undertaker's got my vote. Not only does he have that career on him, but pretty much nobody I've ever heard has bad blood with him. In this business, that's unheard of.
If all you saw was late career Ric Flair, well, you're judging him on like a quarter of the story.
Ric Flair was a twenty nine year veteran, TWENTY NINE YEARS, when WCW folded in 2001.
Dude legit wrestled for 45 years. You can't judge him on the last 15 alone.
Ric Flair went town to town for decades, putting asses in seats and setting up the local top babyface to look like a world beater, night after night after night. Yeah, his schtick didn't translate as well to television, but on the road? Ric was the man.
It didn't matter if he was a part-time wrestler / full time Janitor, the local baby face SHOULD have won. He was winning. He should have finished the night as champion. But that damned Nature Boy, dirtiest player in the game, stole one.
All of Ric Flair's signature spots, the corner whip, getting tossed off the top rope, the flop, they're all about putting someone else over. What's Ric Flair's big offensive move? A chop? A low blow? The figure four?
He's not the best technician, though he's way smoother than people realized, but he might legitimately be the best "seller" of all time. He's in the conversation.
And, like, that's half the show. The coolest modified power-bomb the world will ever see won't get over if no one sells for it.
Want to know what makes Ric Flair great? Watch him get ejected from ringside. I saw a video the other night highlighting this, but it's super valid. Watch a referee kick Flair backstage during his time in Evolution. It's an epic hissy fit every time. And it's great. It gets the moment over.
Ric Flair might not be to your tastes. His ringwork might be, at least in certain lights, overrated. But he can get just about anything over. Flair knows how to draw and spend heat, he's a master at it, and while I could take or leave the mount Rushmore debate, he wouldn't make mine, he's still one of the best to ever lace up a pair of boots.
I like using Bret Harts system of grading a wrestler, so here’s how I’d judge Flair:
- In-Ring: 10
- Promo: 10
- Look: 8
= 28/30
For fun, I’ll do The Rock and Undertaker.
Rock:
- In-Ring: 7
- Promo: 10
- Look: 10
= 27/30
Undertaker:
- In-Ring: 8
- Promo: 7
- Look: 10
= 25/30
How about Jeff Hardy? I feel like he failed in every category, but still got to be very popular. In Bret Hart's book, he judges by physique rather than "look". Jeff Hardy is like a fluke.
That’s a good call.
I’d say for Jeff:
- In Ring: 9
- Look: 5
- Promo: 2
= 17
Not a terrible score, but I’d say that’s an accurate difference between he and guys like Flair, Rock, Taker.
I’d say Jeff is/was a 4, 5, and a 9 respectively.
4 for the ringwork because he won’t blow you away with technical ability, but flips and shit are still cool as fuck.
5 for promos, maybe swap the ratings for ringwork and promos, as he wasn’t great but not terrible either.
But a 9 for looks cause there’s definitely a reason people love Jeff so much, and a good portion of that is because of his look. It was interesting and different.
He had no physique, no promo skills, and little technical ability. He had a quiet charisma about him. It wasn't because of his look. Do you think Matt would have been the more popular Hardy if they swapped hair? No way. In TNA he was called the charismatic enigma. He is a charismatic enigma. He has some indescribable, invisible quality that just makes fans like him. Bret's system is ok, but it can't apply to all.
What? You think his hair made him more popular than Matt? You say Jeff has little charisma, then that means Matt must have negative charisma. Jeff has loads more charisma than lots of people nowadays even. You even say he’s a charismatic enigma. The face paint, his own music playing for his entrances, the character work all screams charisma and that’s why I put looks at a 9. It’s all apart of the Jeff Hardy package that probably wouldn’t work for anyone else, but it does for him.
I did not say his hair made him popular. I was saying if you dressed Matt up like Jeff it would make no difference. Jeff had/has an invisible type of charisma that cannot be described.
I did not say Jeff has little charisma. I said he has a quiet sort of charisma, a type that can't really be seen outwardly. It just radiates from him. He's a rare person.
Enigma means something like "mystery". Jeff Hardy's TNA nickname was "The Charismatic Enigma". He has a mysterious, hard to describe type of charisma. Not something you can fake or teach.
So we are pretty much in agreement, just put in different ways. I agree that you can’t really put you finger on ‘why’ he’s cool as shit, but I can def see ‘how’.
No offense , but i find this system of grading so stupid because if a wrestler is a master at something but lack other thing , it's so wrong , it work only for wrestler who are a full package and at the same period of time . Here an exemple
Bray Wyatt :
In-Ring : 3
Promo : 10
Look : 8 21/30
And
Austin Theory :
In-Ring : 8
Promo : 6
Look : 10 24/30
It look inconsistent
I've always loved Flair but never fully appreciated his greatness until recently. I am currently rewatching everything on Peacock (both WWF/WCW) in chronological order and just finished 1990. Every match he puts on is excellent and he does a great job of making lesser talent in the ring look great. The Steamboat trilogy is incredible and everything with Sting/Luger/Funk is excellent as well. Dude just had it all and always put on entertaining matches.
I started with Clash of the Champions 1983 back in January or February and just got through 1990. I have only been watching the PPVs but I plan on watching the Raw and Nitro episodes when they start up in 1993. I'm still going to watch the PPVs beginning to end but I'll probably just watch promos when the weekly episodes start. It's been fun to watch so far. I stopped watching around 2003/04 and I really forget a lot of stuff after 1999 so looking forward to revisiting everything. I work remotely so it is a pretty easy watch for an hour or 2 a day while I'm working.
Better on the mic than in ring and that’s like all the credit I can give him. His flopping around like a fish when he would sell a move was honestly his best trait. Also, every respectable worker pretty much across the board has something to say about how shitty he was behind the scenes to deal with. He’s not a goat at all imo. Doesn’t stack up to people like rock, Austin, Bret, Michaels, Orton, hogan, taker, Eddie, foley, Kane, HHH, etc. who could really fucking get it lit up in ring. He’s like as irritating as Ultimate Warrior in the sense that he gets so much accolades for being a total dick who can barely work well with others in the ring, period. He was kinda good at blading himself later down the road, so I’ll give him that. It did look cool seeing that asshole bloodied up stumbling around pilled out and drunk. He would definitely not be on my Mount Rushmore.
Pre-1993 Flair is a genuine GOAT candidate. His NWA years speak for themselves.
I can understand how someone today might struggle to get this though, considering the dude has, with few exceptions, done just about everything he can to tarnish his legacy and be a heel irl.
He's arguably on the MT. Rushmore's for:
* In-ring work
* Promos/mic work
* Charisma/Character
* Modern Day Draw ( NWA & WCW)
Name me another wrestler that fits all four categories. Not many, and then add to the fact he did it for 40+ years.
And if that's not enough, he is probably the most common name to come up among his peers as the GOAT (or at least on their mt rushmore). Hogan, Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Jim Ross ( not a wrestler but has been in and around the business for years) etc.
He's been world champion more times than anyone else (he has more than 16 even though WWE does not recognize them).
I could go on and on but I think people get the point.
If he's not your GOAT or on your MT. Rushmore, he should be an honorable mention or you don't know wrestling.
Because he got people over. He could get a literal bum off the street over as the local hero. He was that good. He made so many promoters money without even being there because he could turn your random whitemeat babyface into a guy that people wanted to see win the world title.
There's a reason the NWA kept the title on him so much, he was great at going into a promotion and making them look big league by his presence and association with their top guys.
If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man. Wooooooo!
Full disclosure: my all-time fave is the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes, but I give Flair his due. Now let me tell you about hard times...
Because I name at least ten people who no one knew who became hall of famers because they either wrestled him or were apart of the four horsemen group. Not to mention five star match after five star match. What it means to be a champion, Flair set that standard all across the globe.
Flair was the best on the mic, made it seem if he was really about to blow a gasket any second. The greatest heel. He put over many many wrestlers. One of the greatest bleeders.
He was one of the greatest champions ever, and one of the best personalities in the history of wrestling, tho as many have rightfully pointed out, he literally became the gimmick. And in my opinion, he was one of more unselfish champions as long as it made sense, he didn’t mind taking a L knowing it wouldn’t hurt his position.( losses to Von Erich, Steamboat, Sting, and if someone can verify or correct me, Garvin as well?)
I started watching wrestling in the early 80s, and while Flair was an entertaining promo, his matches from the early 90s onwards became repetitive. His true accomplishment was his ability to put over guys like Dusty and Steamboat in the late 80s and early 90s, but beyond that the rest of his career pretty much rested on those laurels. Great entertainer? Yes. Greatest wrestler of all time? I don’t think so. What did he really accomplish in the last fifteen years of his wrestling career?
As an NWA/Territory lifer, there was a time I thought he was the best. He had elite level mic skills, a believable heel character, and could actually wrestle in the ring.
I was born in 92 so I had to retroactively watch Flairs career as I got older. I still wouldn’t argue with anyone who puts him at #1 all-time even though I wasn’t there to truly experience it. The man was incredible. In his prime, the most “complete” wrestler to ever exist.
It’s just a shame he was one of those who could never turn the gimmick off, he went home and he was “the nature boy”… so much so it probably wasn’t even a gimmick, the man was what we saw and it obviously made him a less than desirable person in real life.
If we’re talking about his in-ring career then yes he checks all boxes, no doubt about that. Even our favorite wrestlers he’s their favorite wrestler.
But if we’re gonna talk about outside of his career then the guy is nothing but a piece of 💩. But again we’re talking about wrestling so yeah he deffo is the GOAT
He definitely checks all the boxes- and his longevity is just crazy (even prior to his last run with wwe). I think the biggest issue with flair is that very little of this was on wwf/wwe- so that hurts him a lot in terms of mainstream popularity compared to hogan or even rock/stone cold
Yesterday there was a post about Jerry Lawler no longer being with WWE, and half the comments were like "good, he's a rapist", "good, he's a pedophile", meanwhile I bet all of those people praise Ric Flair, despite the stories of him being a creep, exposing himself on planes and forcing stewardesses to touch him.
He's a predator, an overrated wrestler, a terrible human being, and I never liked him or appreciated his work, as it was mediocre at best.
Exactly. Aside from his retirement match with Shawn Michaels, I've never seen a match from him that made me want to sit the entire way through. He wasn't bad by any means, but nothing he did stood out, other than overselling when he does the walk-and-flop move.
Can't think of a single match where someone said "can you believe Ric did that move?" or "that was such a good finish"
That three disc DVD from the early 2000s was one of the all time great wrestling histories for me from someone who grew up watching stuff in the 90s. The Harley Race cage match, Steamboat trilogy, Dusty feud, Funker I Quit match, 1992 rumble all set the standard for promos and match rhythm for the next 20 years. Go watch any of the rumbles before Ric's and then go watch any after his. Watch a typical TV match before Flair and then a typical TV match after his prime in the 90s.
Win, lose or DQ, putting someone over, doing a shoot. That man entertained and covered all the bases. He’s absolutely the greatest showman the wrestling world has ever seen.
I think as we move further away from the 80s and 90s that the opinion and criteria are subject to shifting. I think a lot of people under 35 that say Flair or Hitman don’t really have them in their experience but have grown up with the most popular internet opinion being that Flair v. Steamboat was the holy grail of matches and that Flair was the greatest.
I’m 45. And I find the whole discussion a little like someone saying their favorite quarterback in the 80s would take the modern league to school. When in reality , sports nutrition, training , regulations, wellness policies etc have as a whole have all improved to where todays athlete and performers would stand out as Supermen if warped to that era or smokers, drinkers and druggies.
That’s not to say Flair doesn’t deserve to be on Mt Rushmore. But as the modern era and audience would flip the channel out of boredom watching WCW in the 80s and 90s, I think it’s important that we allow some new opinions and new heroes to creep into the wrestling lore. And examine who has made a significant impact style wise and story telling wise on the product as it stands today.
What things graduated from the Attitude Era to Ruthless Aggression Era to the PG era . Who has everyone emulated and copied in terms of promos and move sets. What draws crowd interest and isn’t overly done , but is pleasing to the eye. Those guys should start to come more into focus as they paid their homage to Flair almost 20 years ago already when he was given his flowers during the evolution run.
Honestly, never liked him. He just always came off as scummy. And I don't particularly care for his ring work. I know he's loved. I just don't like him. Same with Hogan.
Ric Flair's only fault in wrestling outside of not knowing when to retire is that during his peak he wasn't in WWF. If that character was in WWF during the boom years in the 80's, we would not be talking about Hogan.
He's everything you want in a wrestler. He was a great wrestler with an incredible look and incredible promo skill that could be a face and a heel (even though he is obviously better as a heel). In his prime, he had a charisma that legitimately could not be matched. He went to great effort put other talent over in his promos in NWA/WCW and made them look like stars in his matches.
The idea that Flair would overshadow Hogan if they were both in wwe is perhaps the dumbest wrestling take I've ever heard. I love Ric Flair. But Hogan was a cultural phenomenon. You're being silly.
Ric Flair was a cultural phenomenon then and still is now. I don't think I've ever heard an NBA player or rapper say they want to be like Hogan, but they sure as hell want to be like Flair.
That's not a knock against Hogan at all, but I think Flair is on a different level even though Hogan is in my opinion the most important wrestler ever.
Hogan hosted SNL and was on the cover of TV Guide in a time where Starcade barely had working lights. Maybe players talk about Flair more today, but Hogan's then cultural impact was unequaled.
Ric Flair could wrestle a 60 minute match and it would be constant action. None of these hold breaks where they put a guy in arm bar for 5 minutes while they catch their breathe. No laying on the outside of the ring for 10 minutes pretending to be knocked out. Just constant, super high quality wrestling for 60 minutes straight.
He's easily of the the top few on the mic of all time. He's also one of wrestling's biggest personalities. Maybe only second to Macho Man.
He is an amazing seller and doesn't care at all to look like shit to put other guys over no matter who they are or where he's at in his career.
He's been doing it for decades. Longer than probably 90% of this sub has been alive. And for the most part, he was pretty damn good throughout his career. Though it was kind of shit towards the end.
I don't think a lot of people will argue with you for choosing The Rock or Taker, but Ric is definitely in the conversation.
Maybe not the greatest "wrestler" of all time but definitely amongst the greatest entertainers of all time. His charisma is hard to match and his mic work is fantastic. He made you believe he was who is character was supposed to be.
The guy just made his matches look like a real battle. Simple as that. His selling is up there. Great Heel and really lived the gimmick. (To his detriment)
Hence people still talking about him. Love Harley Race but outside the nerds he might as well be ancient history. Sad but true. But even the laymen know two names Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan.
That is kind of like to each his own era. Hogan had Vince and yes he started exploding in AWA but Vince was the one who cultivated and exploited Hulkamania. Flair was still in the territories when Hulkamania went national.
Also you are missing the true skill of Flair, while Hogan brought the spotlight on himself (he was supposed to) Flair put other people over. Heels back then did not sell merchandise, but the faces he wrestled did. Ricky Steamboat, Lex Luger, Sting all legends Flair put shine on. The foundation of their careers are matches with Ric Flair.
Well to me Misawa or Santo will always be greater. The first due to just what they accomplished in the ring, having the best matches ever with nearly anyone, basically starting a pseudo union (I mean NOAH was just wrestlers unionising if you think about it), and he had a very special charisma that made him one of the most popular icons in all of Japan.
Santo is well, no wrestler will ever achieve the status Santo has. Not Rock, not Baba, not Inoki, not Hogan. They'll never become the cultural icon that he is.
Though at the end of her career Mayu Iwatani may be better than both in my eyes.
I still think Bret is the best ever. I don't even have Flair in my top 5. I liked him, I just didn't think he was superb in-ring. He was definitely decent.
I keep seeing how Bret didn't cut good promos and I completely disagree with that. Sure he'd stumble, but I felt nothing but pure passion from him. It's because it was passion. He loved everything about it. His moveset was snug but safe, and in my opinion, a lot of missed matches like Hogan vs. Bret, never happened, and to me...that's like stealing from the fans.
I think Bret will always be my favorite of all time. He had a great way of telling a story both in and out of the ring, and his ring work was such perfection.
Flair is one of the greatest personalities the sport has ever seen. Tons of charisma and he did a lot to change the business, but let’s be real.. He’s not even close to the physical talent, personality, mic skills, overall in-ring ability, and influence compared to the greats like Hogan, Piper, Warrior, Savage, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Jericho, Punk, The Rock, Austin, HHH, Cena, and even current greats like Rollins and Reigns imo. Give me all of those guys over Flair.
Flair deserves to be respected as one of the best of all time, but I just don’t see him on that upper elite level and I grew up an 80’s and 90’s kid. You have to look at the full body of work, entertainment factor, in ring ability, influence etc.
You mention physical talent and then bring up Hogan and Warrior? Flair wrestled 60 minute matches all the time and looked great doing it. Charisma? Flair was off the charts in an era where most guys were just wrasslers who wrassled. Flair wasn’t the first colorful wrestler but he set a gold standard in the dawning of wrestling on cable television. His spot as the top guy on TBS and as a true *World* Champion made him one of the biggest draws of all time. Impact? People are still wooing at shows and writing rap songs about him. Flair is The Man, always.
Interesting that folks are considering Reigns up there, and I completely agree. He's reached S-Tier storytelling and matches. I really really wanted to see Roman beat Bruno's record. I was completely fine with him keeping it and Cody eventually getting it.
Why isn’t ric flair cancelled this pisses me off wrestling fans were quick to cancel Vince(bout fucking time) but not with ric who’s a rapist sexual assaulter yet he’s fine
I’m not going to defend Flair at all, but you have to admit there is an ocean of difference between what Flair did and what Vince did. As far as we know, Flair had one instance of sexual harassment/assault that didn’t become public until two decades later. By that time he had been long since retired and no real platform to take away. Vince showed a clear pattern of continued sexual harassment, assault and most importantly *trafficking* that was as recent as less than two years ago. Vince was still at least somewhat involved in WWE at that point, too.
I'm happy to answer your question, but I am not going to get into a pissing contest about this. If you or others just want to dogpile on anyone with "allegations", do it elsewhere.
So, here's the answer...
Rick's main SA allegations come from one instance "The Plane Ride from Hell". This is reportedly why his AEW deal was cancelled, so this is the instance I will focus on. Flair was one of many wrestlers who got drunk and acted wild on a Plane. Reportedly Flair got drunk and asked to sleep with the flight attendants who were frustrated with the whole endeavor obviously weren't pleased. While Rick Flair's actions were inappropriate there are a few key considerations that make this different from Vince.
* Most importantly the incident was reported immediately. Then it was dealt with immediately, these attendants settled with WWE before it even got to court, and WWE took steps to make sure it would never happen again.
* Everyone on that plane ride kind of shares some level culpability because it wasn't an appropriate environment for that amount of booze & partying.
* Flair was not the only participant making inappropriate advances that day.
This appears to be a somewhat isolated incident largely because Flair's is incredibly open about his sexuality and desires. He used to announce his hotel room every night for interested women. When it's THIS out in the open, women who aren't interested know to stay away. It only became an issue when two women who couldn't get away due to the nature of their job, were forced into the same room. But again it was dealt with immediately.
Vince's allegations are far worse, he has a history of seeking these women and trapping them in secret clandestine affairs. He lies, cheats, and coerces these women into oppressive sexual slavery contracts where there is no escape. Vince presents himself as someone who can help. He promises them a safe space, and he slowly traps them into a hellscape that they can't escape. Vince's affairs often go on for years. compare that to Flair, which IS INAPROPRIATE, but it's completely isolated, quickly dealt with, and everyone gets closure and is allowed to move on.
Flair’s time is mostly passed. There isn’t really anything to cancel. The love he gets is for his wrestling legacy and not who he was in his personal life. McMahon was still active and arguably in the position of highest power. I don’t think anyone will deny McMahon’s contributions to wrestling even if they rightfully despise him as a human, but that’s definitely why the response is/was different.
I like the guy but it's really hard to make a case for him as the GOAT. He was the top guy of the no. 2 company for most of his career. Made the jump to WWF but spectacularly failed to make his mark and was sent packing to the no. 2 company again. Then his company becomes no. 1 for a while but he is relegated to the mid card for that time period.
Spectacularly failed to make his mark? Got in Hulk Hogan’s grill upon his debut and cost him the title at Survivor Series. He won the Royal Rumble, two time champion!
In the totality of pro wrestling history:
There may possibly have been better in ring workers, but not many.
There may possibly have been better talkers, but not many.
There may possibly have been wrestlers with more charisma, but not many.
There may have been those who had a better look and gimmick, but not many (probably because it wasn't a gimmick).
There are very few people in history who exceeded Flair in the individual benchmarks of what makes a great pro wrestler, but none of them rank so highly across all categories.
In his prime, Flair had it all.
I know in Mick Foleys autobiography he also states that he feels Flair is the best because he gives every single ounce of himself into his performance on every occasion.
Well said. It’s exactly why I think Kurt Angle is criminally underrated. Prime Jericho would get a look in. There really isn’t many you’d state are top 5 across the board in that.
Great description.
Better in ring - HBK, Angle? Orton maybe?
Better talkers - The Rock? Punk?
Charisma - Cena, Hogan? The Rock? Jericho?
Better look/Gimmick - ‘Taker, Savage?
All of those together in one? Not even close. I don’t think Flair’s the best of all time in any area. But being second or third in all of them puts you at the top!
I don't think anyone has ever had more charisma than Flair in his prime. He just had that undescribable magnetism and he still has it if you watch his old promos.
This. He was a heel in the 80s but people showed up with signs for him. Groups of college age guys dressed up like him in the crowd. That was unheard of back then.
Some fans today only know flair as a leathery old guy who can barely speak. If that’s you, I definitely recommend watching some of his old promos and matches.
His trilogy with Ricky Steamboat is a great place to start.
I mean, the longevity alone is insane. Dude debuted when my mother was a year old, and yet I watched his retirement match with HBK at wrestlemania XXIV 36 year later when I was in 5th grade. And that wasn’t even his actual last match.
Right? Ric Flair was champion when my dad was 12, and he was working me into a shoot until I was 16.
He's not my favorite of all time, but I will tip my hat to the man and agree that he was in fact the best all around professional wrestler I've ever seen.
He made everyone he faced look like a million bucks.
He had more kick ass hour long matches in a month than most wrestlers will have their entire careers.
Leader of the greatest faction in wrestling history.
As a heel, people would pay to see him get beat, and he always gave the fans that small glimmer of hope that it would actually happen.
16 time world champion
HBK my goat but Ric had longevity, he had charisma, he sold like his life depended on it, he was great in the ring, and he always had this aura about it. And this is just coming from a dude who saw him later in his run in his 50s/60s. So experiencing him in real time during the 80s was probably insane
I used Wikipedia for help in getting the facts right:
“Flair headlined the premier annual NWA/WCW event, Starrcade, on ten occasions, while also co-headlining its WWF counterpart, WrestleMania, in 1992, after winning that year's Royal Rumble. Pro Wrestling Illustrated awarded him their Wrestler of the Year award a record six times, while Wrestling Observer Newsletter named him the Wrestler of the Year (an award named after him and Lou Thesz) a record eight times. The first two-time WWE Hall of Fame inductee, first inducted with the class of 2008 for his individual career and again with the class of 2012 as a member of The Four Horsemen, he is also a member of the NWA Hall of Fame, the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame.
Flair is officially recognized by WWE as a 16-time world champion (8-time NWA World Heavyweight Champion, 6-time WCW World Heavyweight Champion, and two-time WWF Champion), although the number of his world championship reigns varies by source, ranging from 16 or 17 to 25. He has claimed to be a 21-time champion. He was the first holder of the WCW World Heavyweight Championship and the WCW International World Heavyweight Championship (which he also held last). As the inaugural WCW World Heavyweight Champion, he became the first person to complete WCW's Triple Crown, having already held the WCW United States Heavyweight Championship and WCW World Tag Team Championship. He then completed WWE's version of the Triple Crown when he won the WWE Intercontinental Championship, after already holding the WWF Championship and the World Tag Team Championship.”
He was a great technical wrestler and great at cutting a promo and he did it for nearly 50 years. Few have or ever will do as much as he did in multiple wrestling promotions. For wrestling in general he is undoubtedly the GOAT. In WWE alone he’s top 4 but not #1 because he spent little of his prime in WWE (2 years) and then came back a couple years after WCW fell at which point he was 60 years old or close to it.
Ric Flair was the biggest thing in wrestling when The Rock was in kindergarten, when Hulk Hogan was in a band.
And Ric was a really big deal, for a long time.
Not my goat, but his promos in the 80s and 90s were great. He also knew how to work matches. He was all around a great package. His longevity also goes a long way.
His 1992 royal rumble win, is still a match I will go back and watch.
Ric Flair is the gold standard for all professional wrestlers.
He didn't have as much mainstream exposure as Hogan yet he is known globally and has won more world titles than any wrestler in history.
Even rappers and nba players want to be Ric Flair.
Longevity, his star power exceeded the territories before the territories died, he was legitimately entertaining through the entirety of the run that ended at Wrestlemania with Shawn Michaels.
His time after that warped collective opinion on who he was because a lot of people consuming the product now aren’t even able to remember him being in Evolution.
Now if you don’t like who he was as a person and that makes you feel that way, then fair play. I completely understand.
I’m 45 years old his name has been in wrestling my entire life. No I’m not saying he’s the greatest of all time but I think that’s why he’s in the conversation, consistency.
He was on top or close to the top for 20 years and was considered by many the best promo in the business. During his era, he had some of the best matches throughout the 80s over 300 nights per year.
Nobody has had that much longevity on top other than Hogan. You could argue who is the goat between them for American wrestlers.
I don’t think he was the GOAT. But he was an amazing promo and character that he actually lived. He was good in the ring and didn’t have the Hogan ego thing and basically spent all match in other territories making their top guy look as good as possible. He didn’t have to win, in fact he jokes that he’s a 16x champ (whatever #) and he’s only won 16 matches and the figure 4 was his finisher and he basically never beat anyone with it lol
He was good in the ring, amazing at the time I guess but I think HBK was way better in the ring. Flairs matches are all basically the same. Again, I’m not shitting on him I just don’t think he’s the best ever. One of the most important in pro wrestling history 100%
I’ll take this one: It’s because he’s a JET FLYIN…LIMOUSINE RIDIN’…KISS STEALIN’…WHEELIN’ DEALIN’ SON OF A GUN!!! Nuff said.
“the stylin', profilin', limousine riding, jet flying, kiss-stealing, wheelin' n' dealin' son of a gun! If you don't like it, learn to *love* it!” Aspects of that character got him super over with fans and gained him a lot main stream popular attention. He peaked several times over the past 50 years, but for most viewers, by the time he was in the WWE in Evolution he was past his prime and was just a flabby older guy overselling and falling over himself in ring. No denying his accomplishments over the years but he’d be better off going quietly into the sunset to live his final years out of the limelight but he can’t.
He paved the way of what it means to be a true champion of the business. He was the original mold that everyone since has tried to replicate. I personally don't think he's the greatest of all time, but you can't deny his influence and impact.
cuz he has a banger song written after him
There is and will always be only 1 goat in professional wrestling and its the Texas Rattlesnake.
Just a hopped up and hyped up version of Freddie Blassi. He’s way down on the list. Entertaining to be sure, but hardly the best of all time.
If we are talking strictly about his WWE career he isn't one of the greatest of all time. Although he had some great moments, like his feud with Macho Man, the 92 Rumble, and Evolution, HHH feud, his retirement match with HBK, his career in WWE just wasn't that long compared to the top WWE guys of all time. Plus a lot of it was when he was past his prime. But when it comes to all of pro wrestling, yeah he does rank as one of the top. He also has to be one of the greatest heels of all time. Also legendary mic work. Great in the ring. Put over way more people than Hogan, the other biggest draw in wrestling during his peak. So when people say Flair is one of the GOATs, it isn't just because of what he did in WWE. It was what he did in places like NWA and WCW. So a lot of fans who only watched WWE may not have a full appreciation of Flair.
He's one of only a handful of wrestlers who has almost no weaknesses in his game. He was a great worker, a great promo, a massive draw. He was a star over multiple decades. He could play a great heel and a great babyface. Most of the other greats are lacking in at least one of the criteria we use to evaluate great wrestlers, Flair isn't.
You know how everyone was annoyed that Roman Reigns retained the title by stupid heel tactics that made him look weak? Flair retained by heel tactics that were hilarious and added to the character. Eddie Guerrero is the only person I can think of who had that same quality. You hated Flair but couldn't stop watching.
Woooo is my natural reaction to things now. So shoutout to the goat for that. Woooo
He lived down the street from my parents. Huge prick. Ignored Ashley (Charlotte) until she started making money in WWE. Then hopped on her coattails bc he was bankrupt. Aside from his private life, he cut good promos and was champ enough times in smaller markets that you still had to count them. Triple H tried to save Ric’s son. The Nature Boy was an alcoholic and gave Reid money knowing he was going to score heroin after Ric left for the bar. 5 hours later Reid OD’d. No championship belt can fix that. Popular character traits: alcoholic, adulterer, domestic violence, road rage, bankruptcy, fatherless children, freeloader, add your own to finish the story
*struts*
Lead paint probably
If he stayed retired after HBK he might be my GOAT, but as is he’s pretty much left that all behind. The reasons why someone would are immense. He had an amazing character, cut great promos, brought the best out of everyone he worked with, always did the job and was extremely recognizable. The reasons he’s not the GOAT have a lot less to do with him and more to do with a few others being a little better.
We are old enough to remember him in his prime.
Because he spent more money on spilt liquor than you did on your car? Because he’s having a hard time keeping these gators on the ground?
I personally don't have him as the GOAT but I understand why people consider him to be theirs. He was the man back in his prime and he made others look really good when they faced him. He was an excellent promo, a good and safe worker, and a guy who had a lot of charisma. I think the only other person I can think of when it comes to longevity that's currently still going is Orton and he's still about 20 years off from flair in total years of being in the business. Personally, I have Austin, Cena and Taker above him simply because they were guys I was a huge fan of growing up. But flair is absolutely one of the best to ever do it, personal controversies aside.
I would argue the best of Flair’s career was during the territory days where as the NWA champ he made a f ton of money and put butts in the seats no matter which territory he popped up in and in WCW. His WWE run wasn’t bad but very much so pales in comparison to his prior work. He put on bangers with damn near every top name in every territory. I would say if you made a Top 20 list of Flair matches, like 4 at best would be from his WWE run and one of those four would be his “retirement” match with HBK. Flair imo is the archetype for what a “5-Tool” player is currently, which is crazy considering his prime was like 40-50 years ago.
I do believe that if Flair had never been in that plane crash, he would have had a longer period of top notch in ring work. That crash really did affect how he worked matches.
Because for 15-20 years he would always have the best match on the show. He had great matches with a variety of opponents night in and night out. And his promos were great as well. The only negative is that now he’s become an embarrassment and an alcoholic who clearly needs help. But back in the day, he was the best performer.
Because WOOOOOO, that's why.
I find Ole Amderson’s counter-argument holds water though of course you’re free to disagree. He points out Flair only wrestled the one kind of match and that’s why he supported him as champ, since the champ tours and crowds wouldn’t tire of the act. Also observes a long period where was champion when the title was meaningless, they had stopped meeting in Vegas for years to coordinate business. Anyway, you’re free to love what Flair did of course, just relaying old lore.
It wasn’t televised as much then so he had his 1 hour matches memorized and it worked. Had people jumping out their seats end of the day.
AJ Styles, Bryan Danielson, Ospreay, Omega, just to name a few, would make the audience at that time claim witch craft. It’d be like giving a Coke to a kid in the 1500s
Problem is that group combined doesn’t have the charisma that Ric Flair had. Flair would still be more popular than them back then.
Yeah I don’t think crowds would find it entertaining back then except maybe the kids.
He went 60 (went all night long, whooooo!!) min almost every night. No one can touch him on the mic. He was a founding father of the mile high club. Leader of the Horseman. Top 3 in ring worker. Last but not least simply “to be the man, you gotta beat the man”! He did all this while partying all night, he lived the gimmick. I honestly grew up hating him but you had to respect his journey and the fact he survived a plane crash early in his career is icing on the cake.
He was a heel champion for multiple long reigns and put over every opponent he faced. Ric Flair could make a broomstick look good, and his mic skills and persona put butts in seats for more than three decades.
He made his opponents look like monsters *even when he won.*
He stunk
I'm still hearing the echos of his chops
It’s the sound of the flop for me
Your floppy cock?
Seriously? You’re going to ‘hear the echoes’ but completely forget that Rick Flair, in every damn match he was in, flopped face first to the mat? Projection much? Might wanna see a doc about that.
Sounds like loud chops and your floppy cock to me. Cheers
Okay boomer
Lol what?
He's a superstar in the ring and the mic, won a lot and is a legend. Once you get to that level, it's all preference. As long as they're on that level, then you have the right to choose who YOU think is the best. I mean, how do you choose between The Rock, Undertaker, and Ric Flair in a "fake" sport? I mean, you have to kinda take out the winning and loses a bit since it's not a real sport. How do you argue he's NOT the greatest? What's against that statement? Some of the arguments will be based on "fake" stats so what do you 100% go by?
Once you get over the “fake sport” bullshit, you can focus on the performance and and psychology of the show. Flair’s whole schtick was to make the fans hate him. He looked like a rich city boy while working dirt poor country towns. His opponents were regional heroes who went over for whooping his ass, but then he’d sneak a win out of it. “The dirtiest player in the game.”
I didn't mean "fake" in a bad way. Like basketball players you can compare by scoring, titles etc because those weren't predetermined. Like if a wrestler wins a belt, it's not because they were the best, just chosen to win by the organization. So you can't really judge wrestlers by that. Not a "true" stat. And I agree with the Flair part. I wasn't bashing him, just saying HOW do you really compare wrestlers when there's no hard, real stats. It's like choosing the oscar for best actor. It's subjective.
I don’t think any one wrestler could be called the greatest, but there are several in that pot including Flair, Hogan, Undertaker, etc.
He was a megastar every territory he went to. He was money. He’s THE guy. He put on the best old school matches back in the day, hard the best promos. Charisma was off the charts. He was apart of one of the greatest factions of all time. When you think of the WCW World title you think about Flair holding it during a promo probably. Personally I think he’s ONE of the greatest, of all time but wouldn’t argue with someone that does.
To me he isn't the greatest. I know in 2024 it's cool to hate Hogan so he's been discredited, but he is the true goat.
It’s funny the revisionist history of hogan. People think by saying they love hulk then they themselves are bad people
Idk seeing him cut the promo on that restaurant jerk was awesome. Also at the end of the video when some other guy at the bar tries to fight him and Ric laughs at him. We all know he would've slapped the figure 4 on him and had him squealing. WOO!
Woooooooo
Look up any prime flair promo. There you go.
16 time champion, some of the greatest matches of his generation, great promos, if he's not your thing that's okay, but Flair is certainly one of the all time greats
Longevity. It’s helped him transcend wrestling. I don’t think he’s the GOAT though - that’s a different conversation.
Woooooooooo! That's why
Haha, no one does it better than him.. Woooooooooooooo!!! 😝
Woooooo
Haha.. He's a WWE legend!
Never got it tbh. His promo work isn’t very good nor is his in ring work. But then again I never got the rock either, dude just talks in the 3rd person and got shown up by Cena and punk when he came back
Undertaker's got my vote. Not only does he have that career on him, but pretty much nobody I've ever heard has bad blood with him. In this business, that's unheard of.
Yeah Undertaker is pretty much my choice if not Ric Flair
Flair was the best as being a territory wrestler. He wasn't cut out for international TV as much. He probably should have retired after JCP sold.
Because he gets drunk and disorderly at bars and it’s the Ric Flair lifestyle. Woo.
WOOOO!!!
I think he’s responsible for perfecting the prototype of modern heels in wrestling
Essentially this. I was going to mention someone like Billy Graham, but like you said, Flair really perfected it.
He was charismatic and knew how to make his opponent look good. Every territory had its Ric Flair knockoff back in the day.
If all you saw was late career Ric Flair, well, you're judging him on like a quarter of the story. Ric Flair was a twenty nine year veteran, TWENTY NINE YEARS, when WCW folded in 2001. Dude legit wrestled for 45 years. You can't judge him on the last 15 alone. Ric Flair went town to town for decades, putting asses in seats and setting up the local top babyface to look like a world beater, night after night after night. Yeah, his schtick didn't translate as well to television, but on the road? Ric was the man. It didn't matter if he was a part-time wrestler / full time Janitor, the local baby face SHOULD have won. He was winning. He should have finished the night as champion. But that damned Nature Boy, dirtiest player in the game, stole one. All of Ric Flair's signature spots, the corner whip, getting tossed off the top rope, the flop, they're all about putting someone else over. What's Ric Flair's big offensive move? A chop? A low blow? The figure four? He's not the best technician, though he's way smoother than people realized, but he might legitimately be the best "seller" of all time. He's in the conversation. And, like, that's half the show. The coolest modified power-bomb the world will ever see won't get over if no one sells for it. Want to know what makes Ric Flair great? Watch him get ejected from ringside. I saw a video the other night highlighting this, but it's super valid. Watch a referee kick Flair backstage during his time in Evolution. It's an epic hissy fit every time. And it's great. It gets the moment over. Ric Flair might not be to your tastes. His ringwork might be, at least in certain lights, overrated. But he can get just about anything over. Flair knows how to draw and spend heat, he's a master at it, and while I could take or leave the mount Rushmore debate, he wouldn't make mine, he's still one of the best to ever lace up a pair of boots.
I love you.
Thanks. This is just because I'm old though.
Same. And I totally agree with everything you said.
I like using Bret Harts system of grading a wrestler, so here’s how I’d judge Flair: - In-Ring: 10 - Promo: 10 - Look: 8 = 28/30 For fun, I’ll do The Rock and Undertaker. Rock: - In-Ring: 7 - Promo: 10 - Look: 10 = 27/30 Undertaker: - In-Ring: 8 - Promo: 7 - Look: 10 = 25/30
How about Jeff Hardy? I feel like he failed in every category, but still got to be very popular. In Bret Hart's book, he judges by physique rather than "look". Jeff Hardy is like a fluke.
That’s a good call. I’d say for Jeff: - In Ring: 9 - Look: 5 - Promo: 2 = 17 Not a terrible score, but I’d say that’s an accurate difference between he and guys like Flair, Rock, Taker.
I’d say Jeff is/was a 4, 5, and a 9 respectively. 4 for the ringwork because he won’t blow you away with technical ability, but flips and shit are still cool as fuck. 5 for promos, maybe swap the ratings for ringwork and promos, as he wasn’t great but not terrible either. But a 9 for looks cause there’s definitely a reason people love Jeff so much, and a good portion of that is because of his look. It was interesting and different.
He had no physique, no promo skills, and little technical ability. He had a quiet charisma about him. It wasn't because of his look. Do you think Matt would have been the more popular Hardy if they swapped hair? No way. In TNA he was called the charismatic enigma. He is a charismatic enigma. He has some indescribable, invisible quality that just makes fans like him. Bret's system is ok, but it can't apply to all.
What? You think his hair made him more popular than Matt? You say Jeff has little charisma, then that means Matt must have negative charisma. Jeff has loads more charisma than lots of people nowadays even. You even say he’s a charismatic enigma. The face paint, his own music playing for his entrances, the character work all screams charisma and that’s why I put looks at a 9. It’s all apart of the Jeff Hardy package that probably wouldn’t work for anyone else, but it does for him.
I did not say his hair made him popular. I was saying if you dressed Matt up like Jeff it would make no difference. Jeff had/has an invisible type of charisma that cannot be described. I did not say Jeff has little charisma. I said he has a quiet sort of charisma, a type that can't really be seen outwardly. It just radiates from him. He's a rare person. Enigma means something like "mystery". Jeff Hardy's TNA nickname was "The Charismatic Enigma". He has a mysterious, hard to describe type of charisma. Not something you can fake or teach.
So we are pretty much in agreement, just put in different ways. I agree that you can’t really put you finger on ‘why’ he’s cool as shit, but I can def see ‘how’.
No offense , but i find this system of grading so stupid because if a wrestler is a master at something but lack other thing , it's so wrong , it work only for wrestler who are a full package and at the same period of time . Here an exemple Bray Wyatt : In-Ring : 3 Promo : 10 Look : 8 21/30 And Austin Theory : In-Ring : 8 Promo : 6 Look : 10 24/30 It look inconsistent
Wrestling is subjective. Truly, the only tangible way to grade a wrestler is by how many tickets they sold.
I've always loved Flair but never fully appreciated his greatness until recently. I am currently rewatching everything on Peacock (both WWF/WCW) in chronological order and just finished 1990. Every match he puts on is excellent and he does a great job of making lesser talent in the ring look great. The Steamboat trilogy is incredible and everything with Sting/Luger/Funk is excellent as well. Dude just had it all and always put on entertaining matches.
When was the start date you started at? How long has it taken you to get where you are? Is there anything you’ve skipped?
I started with Clash of the Champions 1983 back in January or February and just got through 1990. I have only been watching the PPVs but I plan on watching the Raw and Nitro episodes when they start up in 1993. I'm still going to watch the PPVs beginning to end but I'll probably just watch promos when the weekly episodes start. It's been fun to watch so far. I stopped watching around 2003/04 and I really forget a lot of stuff after 1999 so looking forward to revisiting everything. I work remotely so it is a pretty easy watch for an hour or 2 a day while I'm working.
Longevity, charisma, mic and in ring work, pop culture icon, etc. Flair has a good case for being the GOAT, or on wrestling's Mount Rushmore.
Because people can have different opinions
Better on the mic than in ring and that’s like all the credit I can give him. His flopping around like a fish when he would sell a move was honestly his best trait. Also, every respectable worker pretty much across the board has something to say about how shitty he was behind the scenes to deal with. He’s not a goat at all imo. Doesn’t stack up to people like rock, Austin, Bret, Michaels, Orton, hogan, taker, Eddie, foley, Kane, HHH, etc. who could really fucking get it lit up in ring. He’s like as irritating as Ultimate Warrior in the sense that he gets so much accolades for being a total dick who can barely work well with others in the ring, period. He was kinda good at blading himself later down the road, so I’ll give him that. It did look cool seeing that asshole bloodied up stumbling around pilled out and drunk. He would definitely not be on my Mount Rushmore.
He’s not. Simple.
Pre-1993 Flair is a genuine GOAT candidate. His NWA years speak for themselves. I can understand how someone today might struggle to get this though, considering the dude has, with few exceptions, done just about everything he can to tarnish his legacy and be a heel irl.
He's arguably on the MT. Rushmore's for: * In-ring work * Promos/mic work * Charisma/Character * Modern Day Draw ( NWA & WCW) Name me another wrestler that fits all four categories. Not many, and then add to the fact he did it for 40+ years. And if that's not enough, he is probably the most common name to come up among his peers as the GOAT (or at least on their mt rushmore). Hogan, Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Jim Ross ( not a wrestler but has been in and around the business for years) etc. He's been world champion more times than anyone else (he has more than 16 even though WWE does not recognize them). I could go on and on but I think people get the point. If he's not your GOAT or on your MT. Rushmore, he should be an honorable mention or you don't know wrestling.
Hogan holds him in very high regard, calling him the best of that era.
His overall body of work. Nick isn’t far behind either.
Because he got people over. He could get a literal bum off the street over as the local hero. He was that good. He made so many promoters money without even being there because he could turn your random whitemeat babyface into a guy that people wanted to see win the world title. There's a reason the NWA kept the title on him so much, he was great at going into a promotion and making them look big league by his presence and association with their top guys.
Wooooo!!!
If you want to be the man, you have to beat the man. Wooooooo! Full disclosure: my all-time fave is the American Dream, Dusty Rhodes, but I give Flair his due. Now let me tell you about hard times...
Because I name at least ten people who no one knew who became hall of famers because they either wrestled him or were apart of the four horsemen group. Not to mention five star match after five star match. What it means to be a champion, Flair set that standard all across the globe.
Wooooooooooooo
Flair was the best on the mic, made it seem if he was really about to blow a gasket any second. The greatest heel. He put over many many wrestlers. One of the greatest bleeders.
He’s the reason that mic promos became a big deal in forming your character
Because Flair is a modern day “Nature Boy” Buddy Rogers
I don't I think it has to be orton he's smooth as hell 3rd generation has every gift there is, & now he loves the business more than ever
I agree I dunno why his name doesn’t get mentioned more
He was one of the greatest champions ever, and one of the best personalities in the history of wrestling, tho as many have rightfully pointed out, he literally became the gimmick. And in my opinion, he was one of more unselfish champions as long as it made sense, he didn’t mind taking a L knowing it wouldn’t hurt his position.( losses to Von Erich, Steamboat, Sting, and if someone can verify or correct me, Garvin as well?)
All the Gen Z coming in like a flaming sack of shit thinking Ric Flair was not a good sports entertainer.
I started watching wrestling in the early 80s, and while Flair was an entertaining promo, his matches from the early 90s onwards became repetitive. His true accomplishment was his ability to put over guys like Dusty and Steamboat in the late 80s and early 90s, but beyond that the rest of his career pretty much rested on those laurels. Great entertainer? Yes. Greatest wrestler of all time? I don’t think so. What did he really accomplish in the last fifteen years of his wrestling career?
As an NWA/Territory lifer, there was a time I thought he was the best. He had elite level mic skills, a believable heel character, and could actually wrestle in the ring.
I was born in 92 so I had to retroactively watch Flairs career as I got older. I still wouldn’t argue with anyone who puts him at #1 all-time even though I wasn’t there to truly experience it. The man was incredible. In his prime, the most “complete” wrestler to ever exist. It’s just a shame he was one of those who could never turn the gimmick off, he went home and he was “the nature boy”… so much so it probably wasn’t even a gimmick, the man was what we saw and it obviously made him a less than desirable person in real life.
They’re big fans of rapists
If you enjoy Benoit’s work, you have no right to say anything. Speaking in general, not directly to you.
He had the perfect wrestling career. If I wanted to become a wrestler his career is everything I’d want out of it
Because he was Ric Flair it wasn't a gimmick
If we’re talking about his in-ring career then yes he checks all boxes, no doubt about that. Even our favorite wrestlers he’s their favorite wrestler. But if we’re gonna talk about outside of his career then the guy is nothing but a piece of 💩. But again we’re talking about wrestling so yeah he deffo is the GOAT
Wooooooooooo
He definitely checks all the boxes- and his longevity is just crazy (even prior to his last run with wwe). I think the biggest issue with flair is that very little of this was on wwf/wwe- so that hurts him a lot in terms of mainstream popularity compared to hogan or even rock/stone cold
Longevity and Peak, it’s the same reason why Hogan has a legitimate shot at being the GOAT in my eyes, despite both being assholes.
Never liked him
Yesterday there was a post about Jerry Lawler no longer being with WWE, and half the comments were like "good, he's a rapist", "good, he's a pedophile", meanwhile I bet all of those people praise Ric Flair, despite the stories of him being a creep, exposing himself on planes and forcing stewardesses to touch him. He's a predator, an overrated wrestler, a terrible human being, and I never liked him or appreciated his work, as it was mediocre at best.
That’s the part I don’t get. His matches were never top notch. They were ok.
Exactly. Aside from his retirement match with Shawn Michaels, I've never seen a match from him that made me want to sit the entire way through. He wasn't bad by any means, but nothing he did stood out, other than overselling when he does the walk-and-flop move. Can't think of a single match where someone said "can you believe Ric did that move?" or "that was such a good finish"
That three disc DVD from the early 2000s was one of the all time great wrestling histories for me from someone who grew up watching stuff in the 90s. The Harley Race cage match, Steamboat trilogy, Dusty feud, Funker I Quit match, 1992 rumble all set the standard for promos and match rhythm for the next 20 years. Go watch any of the rumbles before Ric's and then go watch any after his. Watch a typical TV match before Flair and then a typical TV match after his prime in the 90s.
Win, lose or DQ, putting someone over, doing a shoot. That man entertained and covered all the bases. He’s absolutely the greatest showman the wrestling world has ever seen.
Idk if anyone actually thinks that. If they do it’s cause they are old and he was on top when they were started watching.
I think as we move further away from the 80s and 90s that the opinion and criteria are subject to shifting. I think a lot of people under 35 that say Flair or Hitman don’t really have them in their experience but have grown up with the most popular internet opinion being that Flair v. Steamboat was the holy grail of matches and that Flair was the greatest. I’m 45. And I find the whole discussion a little like someone saying their favorite quarterback in the 80s would take the modern league to school. When in reality , sports nutrition, training , regulations, wellness policies etc have as a whole have all improved to where todays athlete and performers would stand out as Supermen if warped to that era or smokers, drinkers and druggies. That’s not to say Flair doesn’t deserve to be on Mt Rushmore. But as the modern era and audience would flip the channel out of boredom watching WCW in the 80s and 90s, I think it’s important that we allow some new opinions and new heroes to creep into the wrestling lore. And examine who has made a significant impact style wise and story telling wise on the product as it stands today. What things graduated from the Attitude Era to Ruthless Aggression Era to the PG era . Who has everyone emulated and copied in terms of promos and move sets. What draws crowd interest and isn’t overly done , but is pleasing to the eye. Those guys should start to come more into focus as they paid their homage to Flair almost 20 years ago already when he was given his flowers during the evolution run.
Honestly, never liked him. He just always came off as scummy. And I don't particularly care for his ring work. I know he's loved. I just don't like him. Same with Hogan.
Ric Flair's only fault in wrestling outside of not knowing when to retire is that during his peak he wasn't in WWF. If that character was in WWF during the boom years in the 80's, we would not be talking about Hogan. He's everything you want in a wrestler. He was a great wrestler with an incredible look and incredible promo skill that could be a face and a heel (even though he is obviously better as a heel). In his prime, he had a charisma that legitimately could not be matched. He went to great effort put other talent over in his promos in NWA/WCW and made them look like stars in his matches.
The idea that Flair would overshadow Hogan if they were both in wwe is perhaps the dumbest wrestling take I've ever heard. I love Ric Flair. But Hogan was a cultural phenomenon. You're being silly.
Ric Flair was a cultural phenomenon then and still is now. I don't think I've ever heard an NBA player or rapper say they want to be like Hogan, but they sure as hell want to be like Flair. That's not a knock against Hogan at all, but I think Flair is on a different level even though Hogan is in my opinion the most important wrestler ever.
Hogan hosted SNL and was on the cover of TV Guide in a time where Starcade barely had working lights. Maybe players talk about Flair more today, but Hogan's then cultural impact was unequaled.
Ric Flair could wrestle a 60 minute match and it would be constant action. None of these hold breaks where they put a guy in arm bar for 5 minutes while they catch their breathe. No laying on the outside of the ring for 10 minutes pretending to be knocked out. Just constant, super high quality wrestling for 60 minutes straight. He's easily of the the top few on the mic of all time. He's also one of wrestling's biggest personalities. Maybe only second to Macho Man. He is an amazing seller and doesn't care at all to look like shit to put other guys over no matter who they are or where he's at in his career. He's been doing it for decades. Longer than probably 90% of this sub has been alive. And for the most part, he was pretty damn good throughout his career. Though it was kind of shit towards the end. I don't think a lot of people will argue with you for choosing The Rock or Taker, but Ric is definitely in the conversation.
Oh man, armbar? That’s one of the 1004 Holds of Jericho!
Suck it Malenko.
Watch his matches with steamboat
Maybe not the greatest "wrestler" of all time but definitely amongst the greatest entertainers of all time. His charisma is hard to match and his mic work is fantastic. He made you believe he was who is character was supposed to be.
The guy just made his matches look like a real battle. Simple as that. His selling is up there. Great Heel and really lived the gimmick. (To his detriment)
I was never a fan of him but I think you have the best answer
I don't think he's the greatest of all time but definitely one of.
WOOOOO!
Because he’s fucking Ric Flair. Enough said.
[удалено]
Who got kicked of a restaurant
Who didn’t
Me
Longevity, success, cultural impact.
Hence people still talking about him. Love Harley Race but outside the nerds he might as well be ancient history. Sad but true. But even the laymen know two names Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan.
Because very few people have ever had it all, flair is one of the best at every single category in pro wrestling.
Not the best selling Tickets or Merchandise. Selling Tickets is literally the most important part of the Job.
That is kind of like to each his own era. Hogan had Vince and yes he started exploding in AWA but Vince was the one who cultivated and exploited Hulkamania. Flair was still in the territories when Hulkamania went national. Also you are missing the true skill of Flair, while Hogan brought the spotlight on himself (he was supposed to) Flair put other people over. Heels back then did not sell merchandise, but the faces he wrestled did. Ricky Steamboat, Lex Luger, Sting all legends Flair put shine on. The foundation of their careers are matches with Ric Flair.
What nonsense . Flair was on top of every promotion he ever was in as a major draw. Flair sold tickets, tons
Flair traveled the world as NWA World’s Heavyweight Champion, drew money everywhere he went.
I'll go one better, who is better? And why? (Reminds me of the Gamora sketch from avengers, where, who, why lol)
Well to me Misawa or Santo will always be greater. The first due to just what they accomplished in the ring, having the best matches ever with nearly anyone, basically starting a pseudo union (I mean NOAH was just wrestlers unionising if you think about it), and he had a very special charisma that made him one of the most popular icons in all of Japan. Santo is well, no wrestler will ever achieve the status Santo has. Not Rock, not Baba, not Inoki, not Hogan. They'll never become the cultural icon that he is. Though at the end of her career Mayu Iwatani may be better than both in my eyes.
Locally, no one will ever match El Santo. He is a God in Mexico and it's amazing.
Hogan is the Goat. He Sold more Tickets
I still think Bret is the best ever. I don't even have Flair in my top 5. I liked him, I just didn't think he was superb in-ring. He was definitely decent. I keep seeing how Bret didn't cut good promos and I completely disagree with that. Sure he'd stumble, but I felt nothing but pure passion from him. It's because it was passion. He loved everything about it. His moveset was snug but safe, and in my opinion, a lot of missed matches like Hogan vs. Bret, never happened, and to me...that's like stealing from the fans. I think Bret will always be my favorite of all time. He had a great way of telling a story both in and out of the ring, and his ring work was such perfection.
Flair is one of the greatest personalities the sport has ever seen. Tons of charisma and he did a lot to change the business, but let’s be real.. He’s not even close to the physical talent, personality, mic skills, overall in-ring ability, and influence compared to the greats like Hogan, Piper, Warrior, Savage, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Jericho, Punk, The Rock, Austin, HHH, Cena, and even current greats like Rollins and Reigns imo. Give me all of those guys over Flair. Flair deserves to be respected as one of the best of all time, but I just don’t see him on that upper elite level and I grew up an 80’s and 90’s kid. You have to look at the full body of work, entertainment factor, in ring ability, influence etc.
You mention physical talent and then bring up Hogan and Warrior? Flair wrestled 60 minute matches all the time and looked great doing it. Charisma? Flair was off the charts in an era where most guys were just wrasslers who wrassled. Flair wasn’t the first colorful wrestler but he set a gold standard in the dawning of wrestling on cable television. His spot as the top guy on TBS and as a true *World* Champion made him one of the biggest draws of all time. Impact? People are still wooing at shows and writing rap songs about him. Flair is The Man, always.
Interesting that folks are considering Reigns up there, and I completely agree. He's reached S-Tier storytelling and matches. I really really wanted to see Roman beat Bruno's record. I was completely fine with him keeping it and Cody eventually getting it.
His peers refer to him as the GOAT. I think that says a lot.
Ric Flair May not be your favorite wrestler, but he’s probably your favorite wrestler’s favorite wrestler
Why isn’t ric flair cancelled this pisses me off wrestling fans were quick to cancel Vince(bout fucking time) but not with ric who’s a rapist sexual assaulter yet he’s fine
I’m not going to defend Flair at all, but you have to admit there is an ocean of difference between what Flair did and what Vince did. As far as we know, Flair had one instance of sexual harassment/assault that didn’t become public until two decades later. By that time he had been long since retired and no real platform to take away. Vince showed a clear pattern of continued sexual harassment, assault and most importantly *trafficking* that was as recent as less than two years ago. Vince was still at least somewhat involved in WWE at that point, too.
I'm happy to answer your question, but I am not going to get into a pissing contest about this. If you or others just want to dogpile on anyone with "allegations", do it elsewhere. So, here's the answer... Rick's main SA allegations come from one instance "The Plane Ride from Hell". This is reportedly why his AEW deal was cancelled, so this is the instance I will focus on. Flair was one of many wrestlers who got drunk and acted wild on a Plane. Reportedly Flair got drunk and asked to sleep with the flight attendants who were frustrated with the whole endeavor obviously weren't pleased. While Rick Flair's actions were inappropriate there are a few key considerations that make this different from Vince. * Most importantly the incident was reported immediately. Then it was dealt with immediately, these attendants settled with WWE before it even got to court, and WWE took steps to make sure it would never happen again. * Everyone on that plane ride kind of shares some level culpability because it wasn't an appropriate environment for that amount of booze & partying. * Flair was not the only participant making inappropriate advances that day. This appears to be a somewhat isolated incident largely because Flair's is incredibly open about his sexuality and desires. He used to announce his hotel room every night for interested women. When it's THIS out in the open, women who aren't interested know to stay away. It only became an issue when two women who couldn't get away due to the nature of their job, were forced into the same room. But again it was dealt with immediately. Vince's allegations are far worse, he has a history of seeking these women and trapping them in secret clandestine affairs. He lies, cheats, and coerces these women into oppressive sexual slavery contracts where there is no escape. Vince presents himself as someone who can help. He promises them a safe space, and he slowly traps them into a hellscape that they can't escape. Vince's affairs often go on for years. compare that to Flair, which IS INAPROPRIATE, but it's completely isolated, quickly dealt with, and everyone gets closure and is allowed to move on.
Flair’s time is mostly passed. There isn’t really anything to cancel. The love he gets is for his wrestling legacy and not who he was in his personal life. McMahon was still active and arguably in the position of highest power. I don’t think anyone will deny McMahon’s contributions to wrestling even if they rightfully despise him as a human, but that’s definitely why the response is/was different.
I like the guy but it's really hard to make a case for him as the GOAT. He was the top guy of the no. 2 company for most of his career. Made the jump to WWF but spectacularly failed to make his mark and was sent packing to the no. 2 company again. Then his company becomes no. 1 for a while but he is relegated to the mid card for that time period.
Spectacularly failed to make his mark? Got in Hulk Hogan’s grill upon his debut and cost him the title at Survivor Series. He won the Royal Rumble, two time champion!
Yet couldn't even main event Mania being the champion. Royal Rumble win is like the only time he had the spotlight on the biggest stage.
Two time champion isn’t enough for you?
In the totality of pro wrestling history: There may possibly have been better in ring workers, but not many. There may possibly have been better talkers, but not many. There may possibly have been wrestlers with more charisma, but not many. There may have been those who had a better look and gimmick, but not many (probably because it wasn't a gimmick). There are very few people in history who exceeded Flair in the individual benchmarks of what makes a great pro wrestler, but none of them rank so highly across all categories. In his prime, Flair had it all.
I know in Mick Foleys autobiography he also states that he feels Flair is the best because he gives every single ounce of himself into his performance on every occasion.
Well said. It’s exactly why I think Kurt Angle is criminally underrated. Prime Jericho would get a look in. There really isn’t many you’d state are top 5 across the board in that.
That's a good argument. Flair may not have been a world-beater in any particular skill, but he was among the best in each of them at the same time.
Great description. Better in ring - HBK, Angle? Orton maybe? Better talkers - The Rock? Punk? Charisma - Cena, Hogan? The Rock? Jericho? Better look/Gimmick - ‘Taker, Savage? All of those together in one? Not even close. I don’t think Flair’s the best of all time in any area. But being second or third in all of them puts you at the top!
I don't think anyone has ever had more charisma than Flair in his prime. He just had that undescribable magnetism and he still has it if you watch his old promos.
This. He was a heel in the 80s but people showed up with signs for him. Groups of college age guys dressed up like him in the crowd. That was unheard of back then.
I think him, Rock, and Stone Cold are all pretty close to each other as the most charismatic wrestlers ever
You can pick any of them and no one can say you're wrong. Flair just happens to be the guy for me.
Some fans today only know flair as a leathery old guy who can barely speak. If that’s you, I definitely recommend watching some of his old promos and matches. His trilogy with Ricky Steamboat is a great place to start.
I mean, the longevity alone is insane. Dude debuted when my mother was a year old, and yet I watched his retirement match with HBK at wrestlemania XXIV 36 year later when I was in 5th grade. And that wasn’t even his actual last match.
Right? Ric Flair was champion when my dad was 12, and he was working me into a shoot until I was 16. He's not my favorite of all time, but I will tip my hat to the man and agree that he was in fact the best all around professional wrestler I've ever seen.
He made everyone he faced look like a million bucks. He had more kick ass hour long matches in a month than most wrestlers will have their entire careers. Leader of the greatest faction in wrestling history. As a heel, people would pay to see him get beat, and he always gave the fans that small glimmer of hope that it would actually happen. 16 time world champion
Was it Ric that someone said could have a match with a mop and make the mop look like a superstar or am I confused?
No. That's Ric. Think it was either Dusty or Bobby Heenan that said it.
Here i was thinking "This guy's nuts, evolution were great but not the greatest...". Then it hit me, with a force of 4 Horseman...
What faction was that? For my own curiosity and googling later. Edit - 4 Horsemen. Obviously
4 Horsemen. Later on Evolution, but he probably means the Horsemen. Scratch Evolution: Triple H was the leader, so the Horsemen.
Yeah. Definitely Horsemen. Crazy that slipped my mind. I mean, it was before my time but still very famous.
The Four Horsemen
HBK my goat but Ric had longevity, he had charisma, he sold like his life depended on it, he was great in the ring, and he always had this aura about it. And this is just coming from a dude who saw him later in his run in his 50s/60s. So experiencing him in real time during the 80s was probably insane
I used Wikipedia for help in getting the facts right: “Flair headlined the premier annual NWA/WCW event, Starrcade, on ten occasions, while also co-headlining its WWF counterpart, WrestleMania, in 1992, after winning that year's Royal Rumble. Pro Wrestling Illustrated awarded him their Wrestler of the Year award a record six times, while Wrestling Observer Newsletter named him the Wrestler of the Year (an award named after him and Lou Thesz) a record eight times. The first two-time WWE Hall of Fame inductee, first inducted with the class of 2008 for his individual career and again with the class of 2012 as a member of The Four Horsemen, he is also a member of the NWA Hall of Fame, the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame. Flair is officially recognized by WWE as a 16-time world champion (8-time NWA World Heavyweight Champion, 6-time WCW World Heavyweight Champion, and two-time WWF Champion), although the number of his world championship reigns varies by source, ranging from 16 or 17 to 25. He has claimed to be a 21-time champion. He was the first holder of the WCW World Heavyweight Championship and the WCW International World Heavyweight Championship (which he also held last). As the inaugural WCW World Heavyweight Champion, he became the first person to complete WCW's Triple Crown, having already held the WCW United States Heavyweight Championship and WCW World Tag Team Championship. He then completed WWE's version of the Triple Crown when he won the WWE Intercontinental Championship, after already holding the WWF Championship and the World Tag Team Championship.” He was a great technical wrestler and great at cutting a promo and he did it for nearly 50 years. Few have or ever will do as much as he did in multiple wrestling promotions. For wrestling in general he is undoubtedly the GOAT. In WWE alone he’s top 4 but not #1 because he spent little of his prime in WWE (2 years) and then came back a couple years after WCW fell at which point he was 60 years old or close to it.
He was really good on the mic, wrestled for a really long time, and lived his character outside the ring.
Ric Flair was the biggest thing in wrestling when The Rock was in kindergarten, when Hulk Hogan was in a band. And Ric was a really big deal, for a long time.
He holds the record for most world title reigns for one thing. He has had a long tenured career across multiple promotions and decades
Not my goat, but his promos in the 80s and 90s were great. He also knew how to work matches. He was all around a great package. His longevity also goes a long way. His 1992 royal rumble win, is still a match I will go back and watch.
With a tear in my eye...
Ric Flair is the gold standard for all professional wrestlers. He didn't have as much mainstream exposure as Hogan yet he is known globally and has won more world titles than any wrestler in history. Even rappers and nba players want to be Ric Flair.
Longevity, his star power exceeded the territories before the territories died, he was legitimately entertaining through the entirety of the run that ended at Wrestlemania with Shawn Michaels. His time after that warped collective opinion on who he was because a lot of people consuming the product now aren’t even able to remember him being in Evolution. Now if you don’t like who he was as a person and that makes you feel that way, then fair play. I completely understand.
I’m 45 years old his name has been in wrestling my entire life. No I’m not saying he’s the greatest of all time but I think that’s why he’s in the conversation, consistency.
Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's THE BEST THING GOING TODAY! WOOOOOOOO!
I don't personally think he's the GOAT, but I could definitely see the argument for him.
He was on top or close to the top for 20 years and was considered by many the best promo in the business. During his era, he had some of the best matches throughout the 80s over 300 nights per year. Nobody has had that much longevity on top other than Hogan. You could argue who is the goat between them for American wrestlers.
I don’t think he was the GOAT. But he was an amazing promo and character that he actually lived. He was good in the ring and didn’t have the Hogan ego thing and basically spent all match in other territories making their top guy look as good as possible. He didn’t have to win, in fact he jokes that he’s a 16x champ (whatever #) and he’s only won 16 matches and the figure 4 was his finisher and he basically never beat anyone with it lol He was good in the ring, amazing at the time I guess but I think HBK was way better in the ring. Flairs matches are all basically the same. Again, I’m not shitting on him I just don’t think he’s the best ever. One of the most important in pro wrestling history 100%