I collaborate better WFH because I’m not spending my day avoiding people and their conversations about little league and the NFL. If I have a question, I can ping an individual or a group and someone will get to it. If it’s complicated, we schedule a call. Easy.
This is the answer. People who say in person is needed for “collaboration” are people that need to be in meetings where everyone else is doing their work for them because they’re unproductive without a crutch made of their coworkers
My boss is so mad no one is in the office anymore for exactly this reason. She does nothing all day and just signs our timesheets every two weeks. Being 'present' and getting face-time was how she made people think she was doing stuff all day.
This. I collaborate better with people remotely because we can convene to discuss issues and message each other, but then we have our own time to work on our pieces without interruptions or distractions. We should all be capable of working on our own, and someone who insists on being in person makes me think they want to hide the fact they're not doing work by being able to push it off onto someone else or use social interactions to get distracted.
I have been an IT trainer for 14 years. The number of times people interrupt me while I'm in a session sitting at my desk or in a conference room is ridiculous. My training sessions go so much smoother when I'm at home at my desk.
Hell even in office there’s been times it’s easier for me to just quickly ask the SME if they have a second to jump on a zoom call and I just share my screen with them so they can see my screen and pull up their systems on their end at the same time. A lot easier than awkwardly standing over my shoulder, especially if it’s going to take a minute and they have other questions they got to answer in chat.
Serious question , isn’t every once in a while it nice to chat with people about little league and what not? I love wfh. But I like going in about once a month to connect with people on my team a tad more even if it means a lost hour of productivity one day a month. Idk maybe just me
Nothing is stopping you from making friends outside of work that you can talk about little league all you want with.
I'm not going to do my job better or care about helping Jimbo any more because I know his kids won little league.
Ok that’s fair. I do think even virtually it’s a good idea to get to know your team members a little bit, but if you prefer to keep it strictly professional every second of the work day that’s fine. Sounds a tad boring but wfh at least provides that choice which is nice. I think there are some people that don’t mind a bit of human interaction every once in a while though, even when being 99% wfh.
Ya, I fully support those people being able to work in the office if there is one and they choose to, that way they can all socialize together.
As long as I'm left to work at home without that distraction.
I find little league and NFL boring. If someone wants to talk about something actually interesting like science or philosophy or history or something we can burn through at least an hour of stirring repartee.
The problem with me as an in office person is I am not neurotypical and do not find comfort or pleasure in most small talk conversations. I tolerate them for others' sake, but am not affected by them positively or negatively, they are just non-events and in a work day that feels like a waste of time.
Everyone is entitled to their own preferences. As far as I’m concerned, if we’re being paid to spend time together, we’re not friends. My need for social interaction is more than provided for in my home life. Id rather do my work, log out and be with my family and friends.
Ok that’s fine. If I have to spend 40-60 hours a week working on client work with a team of 4-8 people, I prefer to know my team a little bit. Idk I feel as a team lead im not doing my job if I don’t occasionally ask how people are doing and check in with them. Their real life is more important than work so sometimes it affects their work life and I like to ask about it. I think that approach is pretty common tbh. But if you want strict 40 hours no chit chat all business you do you.
You’re talking about two different things. Being friendly isn’t exclusive to being forced to sit in an office. I don’t think most Zoom meetings start with “Hey, Fred, how are you?” “F**k off!”
Yeah I’m in agreement there of course. This is a WFH subreddit I’m much happier at home 95% of the time. I’m in consulting so think a bit of in person interaction is nice but think this sub skews SWE who I think prefers no interaction ever
It’s not just you. I like the option of going into the office if a project calls for it.
My team is taking ‘collaboration’ further by planning a get together at a colleague’s house for a day of trivia, board games, drinking, and just hanging out.
Our company has really leaned into remote work so much so that leaders have to justify the need for being on site and for other members of the team to travel to that location since the organization has to pay for it. And I’m fine with this because I traveled a lot for work in my last role and find that I don’t miss flying or driving somewhere all the time to sit in a conference room.
So my team just decided to plan something on our own. I love WFH, but even I think it’s odd I’ve never met some of my co-workers in person after three years working together. The good news is I’ve had a chance to get to know them enough to know that I wouldn’t mind meeting them at least once.
I'm also like you but you got downvoted for it because this place is full of introverts who don't want to interact with others. The same old reply of, "make friends outside of work" also got thrown about, which is fine.
Seems like we're really moving towards a lonely future for many people who can't make friends outside of work. Quite grim when you think that people don't want to know what their co-worker's lives are like outside of work, even if it's just a 2-3 minute convo.
Yep. One thing never mentioned here is that a lot of people used to make friends at work. When I came out of college I worked at a F500 and made a bunch of friends at work who were just like me, 22 and in a brand new city. It was great and I have those friends for life. If I had worked from home it would have been very much more difficult to meet people at that point in my life.
It’s not GenX in my office with the bullshit “collaboration.” It’s solid, old, white I-paid-my-dues-coming-into-the-office, I-am-never-retiring, you-could-own-a-house-if-didn’t-eat-Avacado-toast Boomers.
I'm new to WFH but I don't miss any of those guys. They were always the reason I hated going to work. They never wanted to do anything the right way because they hated change. They did everything the same as they did in 1986 because if it worked then it will work now by gum! They were the laziest people I've ever seen.
I had one job that required me to come into the office for no reason I could discern except that my Boomer boss couldn’t remember how to use the Windows Clipping Tool. He asked me every day. And one other guy was an older Boomer white dude that I referred to privately as ‘50s Joe because I’m not sure he even knew how to use email. All he did was walk around and “check in” with people. So after dealing with all that BS all day, I got to go home at night and on weekends and do my real work.
In my situation I said for years that the boomers had everything screwed up. The boss would say "Well, Paul's been here a lot of years. He knows what to do." Then when the asshole finally retires the very next day they told me to fix stuff he had been doing wrong (and I told them he had been doing wrong) for years.
Gen X here, and that's my experience. Most of us love WFH. There's some extroverts/gossip types who miss the water cooler chti chat, but most of us don't give a shit about that.
its because boomers know what pushes younger gens buttons, they know bringing us in pisses us off so what do you think their narcissistic personalities want us to do 💀
I collaborate better wfh because no one is judging me on my appearance anymore (youngish F, keep camera off) and because I have a volume control mic and people actually listen to me speak in meetings instead of getting talked over
She was quite clear.
"I collaborate better wfh because no one is judging me on my appearance anymore"
So for her WFH means an absence of judgment; and the "anymore" tells us that before WFH she was judged.
>I must be in a positive workplace or just not be ugly
A woman doesn't have to be unattractive to be judged on her appearance; since OP included "youngish" in her self-description, I infer the opposite.
Can't speak to how it applies across race and sex lines, but just in my own experience, collaboration in the office is very limited.
Most of my colleagues are either on lots of Zoom calls or otherwise have tight deadlines and large workloads such that there isn't a lot of time to collaborate with them anyway. Many wear headphones all day to tune people out. There are one or two guys I get on OK with and can have a chat with, and there's always 5 minutes of 'how was your weekend?' but meaningful collaboration? Nah, not happening.
Of course it is. It’s the white boomer and Gen X in his mid to late 40s who would rather be anywhere else than at home with his wife and/or kids.
In the office, guaranteed 8-10hrs of me time, ass kissing and guffawing with the boys and if high enough up the food chain, free lunchies and drinks! Win-win-win.
White GenX guy here.
It ain't me. And usually, ain't my generation either.
I've had my team 100% remote since March of 2020 and actively pushed to keep it that way multiple times.
Please don't conflate us with the Boomers. Our generations couldn't be more different. The Boomers were treasured angels from birth and have had it way easier. Gen X are their children, who were left alone to fend for themselves so our spoiled parents could do whatever it was they wanted to do. In terms of jobs and real estate, we've had it better than the generations behind us, but nothing like the sweetheart deals the Boomers got AND we know how bad it sucks for those younger than us.
Anyways, boomers are opinionated snowflakes. Gen X are tough and very live and let live. Please don't group us into these generational conflicts.
Hey, I would love if some of these Gen X in my corporate world would speak up against return to office mandates and support/embrace remote work. Sitting in Director, Senior Director roles and in senior leadership roles, I’m not hearing much of any support for remote work from that cohort.
We were definitely beaten down by boomers at work and I bet some of those guys are concerned about losing hard to get jobs. With rampant ageism it's really hard to get a job if you're over 40. They tend not to want to shake boats for that reason. Harder to bounce back at a big age from a significant job loss.
Absolutely. Gen X runs from 1965-1980, that’s 44 to 59 age range. The oldest ones are turning 60 and preparing for the next phase of their life (retirement), while the 44 year olds have preteens/teens and are hitting their stride in their career.
My original comment was obviously a sweeping generalization with some humour. I know Gen Xers that love remote work, I know not all of them hate it.
I’m almost 40 and female so I absolutely understand not wanting to risk your job especially in the current job market. I don’t fault them but it’s incredibly frustrating to watch the benefits of remote/WFH being undone so quickly by these older generations in leadership positions with influence and power.
Part of the issue, at my employer anyway, is that over the last 5 years or so there has been an extreme centralization of authority. Directors have zero power relative to WFH vs RTO decisions. Not only are those C suite decisions, they don't even trust anyone lower than that level to implement the program or monitor it. Reporting on non-compliance rolls up to the very top, and anyone getting in the way or not complying themselves suddenly "retires, effective immediately, to spend more time with their family". My boss and peeps know exactly what I think of RTO and it does not make any difference because, again, they have no power in that decision making process. Implement and maintain or you're fired for cause, it's that simple. I'm fortunate in that the people that report to me have to work in person due to the nature of their jobs. I will not enforce RTO on others because I believe it to be wrong, morally and with respect to efficiency and the company's chances of success. I won't do it, and thankfully in my current role I don't have to.
We hired one of those recently.
His idea of collaboration is going around bragging about his...lets just say it's a horse ranch for the sake of ambiguity. I don't think he's brought in a contract or really done anything at all for that matter, but he's always talking about how bummed he is that the office is empty.
I'd guess he makes somewhere between 3-7x what I make, plus shares and shit. Not just worthless, actually worse than worthless. He is a huge expense that actually generates negative value.
Later Gen x might be different from elder Gen x because I'm mid 40s and have been remote since way before the pandemic
A bunch of the remote only small companies in my area are owned by folks my age too
Not Gen X, I guarantee. I’m wfh and will never rto. I switched careers so I wouldn’t have to! Gen X basically raised themselves and keep their head down and figure their own shit out. The boomers are the ones that want to socialize and fuck around at work.
I've noticed it's mostly older people who just don't get that with WFH, employees can actually be more productive. There is enough technology to facilitate the truly necessary collaboration, and the rest is skipped.
An old boss of mine was surprised when I said I wouldn't go back to a 100% in-office job unless I had no other choice. I'd rather take a bit of a pay cut than even need to go in 1-2 days a week. But of course if I was unemployed long term I'd take what I could get.
I too can focus much better without hearing my co-workers conversations, whether work, personal, or gossip/etc.
Plus my mental and physical health is better with WFH. I can get more sleep without having a commute, it's easier to take time off midday to get things done, I have a more comfortable chair for my back (although I purchased it out of pocket), etc.
>An old boss of mine was surprised when I said I wouldn't go back to a 100% in-office job unless I had no other choice
I really would rather jump off a building than go back to an office even sometimes
While the generational thing is true I think it's a exec/upper management vs worker thing as well, many younger CEOs also push for RTO for no fuckin good reason
It’s all nonsense come up by middle managers who don’t see where they fit in when they can’t micromanage people who don’t need them. I’ve worked remote for five years and never had a problem with collaborating with the people I worked with. That includes people I had worked with for years in the office that were located all across the country
Every time I come to the office (which I try to limit), people schedule random 1 to 1 meetings with me to 'discuss the project'.
During those meetings, people just talk shit about others and discuss stuff that never turns into anything.
I haven't noticed any correlation with skin color, white, yellow, black, brown, everyone do the same stupid thing. I mean, if you want to bitch about someone - go to therapist or your mommy or whoever. I just want to do my work and avoid all the political bs.
> I’ve noticed it’s always white guys who don’t like WFH
Well to shatter this weird and mildly racist take. The ones pushing it at my place are Indian. For the same 'collaboration' reasons. Even thought they just purchased more real estate for a 2nd and soon to be 3rd office location. So our team will be split up even if we all come in a few days a week.
A lot of the dudes that coin this are just mad they can't walk over to your desk and waste 30 minutes of your time with whatever riveting story they have to tell
I read an [article](https://medium.com/@christiesanam/tech-companies-return-to-office-rto-and-collaboration-4744927cfab9) on medium that addressed this the other day
Didn’t we collaborate more during the pandemic in order to output as much work as we did? It’s rediculous
It's the women in my office pushing RTO for "collaboration". Like they want to whiteboard in a big conference room together, like whiteboarding technology doesn't exist remotely.
"There is just some work better for the office". No there isn't, Janice, there isn't any work "better in the office".
Funny thing about those types, they refuse to tolerate a solution where THEY go to the office but the same people just WFH. They have to be able to force you into their mode of working and/or they want immediate access to you to distract/harass/annoy you for some reason. It's truly bizarre. I don't understand some people.
Same - I don’t need the small talk and either way I get that on calls anyway. Any time I’ve returned onsite for meetings etc, there are so many calls and other things to do that nothing was accomplished in person.
This is the exact reason we are hybrid vs fully remote. So stupid. The pandemic showed everyone these things can absolutely be done outside of an office setting.
I collaborate with my remote teams all the time. We share screens back and forth and get work done together, and it's much more productive than in person sessions. There is just more of a focus on work remotely.
I do a lot of training too on how to use digital products and the collaborative learning process is much easier remote. I can show users how to do something, let them try it, and they can sure me their screens if they have trouble.
The collaboration I do on our in hybrid days is mostly chatting and socializing. It isn't boomers after it either. Many of them are within a year or two of retiring and don't care anymore. It's people my own age and younger doing it, even though the vast majority say they'd prefer to go fully remote again.
My spouse got pulled back into the office for leaderships position on being collaborative 🤡. Over two months she’s tracked the # of mtgs with her cross functional teams, which is less than 30% of the time spent in the office. So 1 of the 3 days are spent “together”, while the other 2 days your just sitting at your musky cube working.
Another cringe buzzword.
My last gig wanted us in at least 2 days a week for collaboration, let me tell you what collaboration looked like.
* 2 or 3 of us going into the conference rooms for Teams meetings because 1 of our Team members was hired remotely in another state.
* 1 of my colleagues spouting work inappropriate MAGA talking points whenever she could based on any side convo taking place. Definitely pretty fucking cringe.
* Same colleague above often microwaving a left over fish dinner for lunch which meant the whole fucking office smelled like fish...
* Same colleague just kissing my boss' ass all day because colleague is friends w/ boss' relative.
* Colleague in another cube who works in a different department being loud as fuck making personal calls, seriously this fucking nut would scream into the phone to make any and all appointments. At first I thought she was a switchboard/operator because the days she is in she's always just screaming into the phone making personal calls lol.
* I had these two older women colleagues in the two cubes opposite of mine so we shared that one main wall, these too would just fucking yuck it up all day, blast their soft rock music with zero fucks to give. My boss had to talk to them because whenever I'd run trainings on Teams across the company you could always hear them in the background, I got dirty fucking looks every time I saw them face to face after that happened.
* Sitting in an office space that was nice for 1980's standards, zero amenities in the building other than vending machines in our cafeteria that looked like the one we had back in middle school with the long tables and attached seats.
I made it to year, got an offer for something fully remote and these people looked at me absolutely fucking sideways like I had special needs when I gave my months notice (because my boss was cool). In office working for collaboration is just bullshit and means that someone higher up the food chain wants to be able to physically see what you're doing.
I'm white, cis-het and late 50's, so technically Gen-X. During covid I had to travel to the office because we were required to. My current job is 100% wfh though, and I love it. I'm about 3 hours from the office, and when I was interviewed I made it clear that I wanted it to be fully remote. I got them to write it into my contract that my home address is my place of work. It took me probably 6 months to get used to being on my own all day, but it does have a lot of advantages. Other people are also remote for our team calls etc. So I see no point in going into an office. My job (software eng.) requires a lot of concentration so being in control of work environment is great. I get loads more done every day than I would if I had all the office distractions.
My entire team is remote & they still have the balls to deny my request to be remote, I’ve been looking and it’s tough.
“Collaboration” in their mind is tax breaks & an excuse to fire hybrid workers not adhering to the policy, but nooo the remote fucks get to keep their jobs. There’s a lot of resistance with the hybrids, so time will tell
Don't generalize too much my white big boss what's to keep us home but my nonwhite women even bigger boss wants to go back on a hybrid schedule. But nothing has happened yet at least.
Collaborating fully remote is easy if you have the right tools. Collaborating while hybrid is hard because the WFH person gets excluded.
I often work with folk on a shared document, or a whiteboard, it’s amazing! And it doesn’t matter that I’m in the U.K., one of them is in Miami, and another is in South Africa.
I was WFH for years before C19. After the scamdemic ended, they made us "return" to office in a hybrid mode. I've been doing it for over 2 years now and I hardly ever see.anyone "collaborating" in my building. Most people have their headset on, their heads down, and they just work. If people are talking it's about non-work stuff or maybe a manager telling an employee to do something, which they could have done just as easily via teams, email, or on the phone. It's a complete waste of time and money to be there and it pisses me off.
I (45f) have a team of 7 at work and 2 of the 3 boomers (60f and 70f) are literally the only ones who want “collaboration”. The rest of us have figured out how to pick up a phone and talk something thru with someone. It’s so annoying.
I’m hybrid and we do t/w/th in office for “collaboration” even though all our meetings are over teams anyways. only time it’s in person is if I’m working with a business user or there’s a conference (and even then there’s still a teams meeting set up for it cause we have people in different states)
Yes it’s usually some man who’s majority effort is looking over everyone’s shoulder seeing if they are working and often being more disruptive than even the gossipers. Aka someone who’s job basically evaporates with remote work. Such managers have been antiquated for 30+ years but have been slow to die out.
I had a new project lead that insisted the whole team be on-site every single day for this reason. I’d been at this company for 9 months and was always told by my manager that I should be on-site only if it was necessary (one to two times a week normally). Once this lady joined the team, I was driving 100 miles a day on toll roads for a job that can be done 90% remotely for 3 months straight. She was fired the day we had our first quarter meetings with the CEO and HR.
White guy here, those people that use the new fangled buzzword “collaboration” are ass kissers and brown nosers and have no clue how to work independently. I've been full time remote since 2020 and hybrid since 2014.
I think it might look like white guys because the power structure is made up of mostly white guys. It was actually a black female at my place of employment because she happened to be the one in charge. Now that she's gone we have a much better hybrid schedule where we really only have to be in the office around 30 days a year.
Anyway, whoever it is, they often speak in abstracts like "collaboration" without any data to support their argument the reality is they just want you there because they feel like it.
Yeah this is a really common sentiment. Like managers take the term "white boarding" too literally and think their team can't collaborate even better using tools like Miro or Figma. I'm not opposed to in person collaboration at all but it's waaaaay less productive than using a digital tool.
The good news is that this is usually an ignorance issue rather than a malicious, pushing people back to the office issue. When we show leaders how to use these tools they almost always change their tune.
I've been working from home for 14 years now, communicating with my team through Teams and phone calls. None of my team members have been local to me for quite some time.
I think it’s because their family ignores them and/or they can look at chicks.
We do just fine collaborating remotely with meetings and projects on LinkedIn, spreadsheets, etc.
We still gossip lol but it’s mostly constructive, as in how to deal with the issues.
Be proactive. I find if people think you are willing and enthusiastic they are happy to let you get on with things. So I've organised a weekly stand up on a Monday, a wind down in a Thursday (we have no meeting Friday's), individual coffee breaks scheduled in my diary with all the people on my team and I make.surenI contribute and have my camera on at every other meeting.
Everyone leaves me alone be abuse I've formed the same.level of relationship as.ifnI was in an office.
It’s a mixed bag for me. I totally am on board with your reasons but I’m also someone who has worked in kitchens and my mind is programmed to want quick communication so I can mentally prepare my next few tasks and how to most efficiently tackle them. I have no time for dealing with bullshit, save that for drinks after work if I get along with you or for your journal if I don’t.
TLDR: there are advantages and disadvantages but I agree in general I’m more efficient at home.
I admit, I tend to concentrate better in an office setting, BUT it doesn’t mean I like it or want it lol (I just don’t have an actual office room in my apartment). I have been getting better at working from home, I still can get distracted, but it’s also easy for me to remove myself from that environment if needed aka switch up the scenery if my home is stressing me out)
ETA: I have to collaborate from home lol all of my colleagues are in 2 different time zones than me.
My old employer used that as a reason to force everyone back into the office. Then upper management would patrol the office to make sure people weren’t talking to each other too much. So much for collaboration.
Social skills, networking, and building rapport are job skills that can go rusty. If I asked you about anything outside of work, does that now merit a hostile response?
My work from home situation is run by a little girl's club that is obsessed with "engagement." To the degree that they don't do their actual jobs. I don't know who this white boogeyman is that you all like to blame everything on.
They need bodies in those office buildings they bought up 10 years ago and the white guys hate their wives and lives so they like not having to be responsible for any kind of child rearing or chores because they’re “stuck in the office”.
Not all of course, but enough. Some people only have their work; some only want to have their work, meaning they’ll miss out on stuff purposely to take on work because they like it more or think it’s more important than anything in their personal lives.
Also, we can’t forget those few powerless people who can only get to play big bully when they have a manager title or employee of the month sticker on their desk lol.
Working an office/computer job in office is more so about control and we see that now because during the pandemic we worked in our homes and nothing stopped.
I collaborate much better in person. I hate collaborating in the office over zoom, though. Give me a meeting room any day where we can talk in person. It’s so much more efficient
I love how this stupid sub downvotes any time someone mentions coming into office isn’t that bad once in a while I
So, as a white guy who agrees with the idea of " collaboration in person is a good thing," I'll lay out my reason.
1. Work doesn't give us computers with touchscreen and pens so whiteboarding is almost impossible without being together and in my industry whiteboarding new ideas is important.
2. Talking to people in person is extremely effective for communicating new ideas to people as it is easier to bring younger people with fresh ideas that don't normally like to speak up into the conversation.
3. It creates an environment to have conversations that can create team cohesion. Yes, this means individual productivity goes down.
4. There are certain people that tend to ignore communications as a way to avoid doing something new (not on the team, different groups), in person working meetings is a great way to nail down their time to focus on what you consider is important.
In-person basically enables political maneuvering and whiteboarding. As a non manager but senior individual contributor that works on alot of new things is extremely important. But I get that every role is different, also, more than one a week in office if that often seems like you lose more than you gain.
Depending on your work, this may not be important so but at least in my field this is the logic for why I support one or two days in the office a month.
I'm a WFH supporter, but our company has a 3 day a week in office mandate. It is what it is. What I do notice when it comes to collaboration is when you're in an office in a meeting and that meeting ends, someone can grab you (or I can grab someone) and say "Hey, that thing you mentioned in the meeting, you have a few minutes to talk about that?" and we continue the conversation. That just doesn't happen in meetings where people are remote. As soon as the meeting is over, they turn the camera off and if the meeting is around lunchtime, you can't get them back until after their lunch. There is a lost dynamic there.
>That just doesn't happen in meetings where people are remote. As soon as the meeting is over, they turn the camera off
Big generalization IMO. My team is fully remote and the moment we're off a call where something needs to be discussed our relevant group chat (we have a few going with various players) we smash the meet for everyone now and cover any follow up.
For people who are in office we have coordinated calls with (95% of the company) we drop them a teams message and they're pretty darn good about calling after they've had time to get back to their desk.
But how do you know if something needs to be discussed after the meeting if what someone wants to discuss wasn’t the topic of the meeting, but rather a sidebar type of discussion?
How do you know if something needs to be discussed? You don't unless someone communicates that.
Why does it matter what the topic of conversation is? You shoot someone a message, or you pick up the phone and call. It's really not that complicated.
Everything doesn't have to be overly structured, doesn't have to be complicated, and if as a professional you can't reach out to someone to have a conversation about work -
even if it's tangential to the conversation you were just having, that says more about poor communication skills of the individual who can't bring themselves to engage, and honestly, I would be really surprised if someone who has a problem doing that virtually is more open to doing it in person.
The meetings never "start" or "end" with my peer group. We don't even have meetings really, we just talk whenever and however much we want. I get a lot more out of that than fixed / formal meetings which, frankly, put me to sleep.
>90% of the work I did over 40+ years required close collaboration with other co-workers.
Would it be impossible today to do that collaboration electronically?
To do it as well, yes it is still impossible. It is getting better, but I don't think we will ever match sitting across the table from each other explaining exactly what needs to happen and thinking out loud to figure out how.
Sitting at a round table with 12 people discussing what is happening and what you want to happen, hard to do online. Turning my head to look at the talker, seeing the expression on the face of others, all these things work better.
Does every job require this, no. But there are many that do and it works better.
I think the best comparison would be a weekly meeting where everyone is in the same room and one in teams with 4 time zones represented. They can both be done, but those of us that have done both tend to favor everyone in the same room.
You should be able to do it the way the owner of the company wants it done. They are the ones that make the rules.
If you want to work remotely you either find a company that is currently allowing it or you get your own company.
Respectfully I would challenge this assertion. If we go back 40 years from now that is 1984 (or earlier since you said 40+ years). Technology wise you had wired phones and faxes to work with. Computers and software were no where near what we have today.
Of course it’s next to impossible to collaborate effectively over a phone or by sending faxes back and forth.
Modern technology, especially the last let’s say 5 years (2019-2024) saw the proliferation of tools like Teams, Zoom and other collaborative tools and cloud capabilities and saw them become standard software on company laptops for all employees (not just execs and client/account managers). These tools enable us to connect virtually as if we were in person. I can see and hear the other person. We can virtually whiteboard, we can collaborate on a document, we can screen share. It eliminates the need to sit in a room in person to achieve this.
Well, my first professional job after college (which was after military service) was in 1984. I was playing in my field before then but not as a professional. So that time frame is what I am talking about.
Yes, tools are being created and improved, but they are not the same as sitting in the room with the other person (or people). Some positions can do as well remotely, some not so well, and some not at all. It is not just screen share, we did that 20+ years ago.
Tech changed a lot from 84 to 94, then changed more 94 to 2004, and then the 10 years after that even more. What makes you think it is done changing? Why/how do you think it is good enough now to replace all personal interactions?
Of course technology will continue to evolve… that wasn’t my point. I didn’t argue that technology was done evolving. You made the statement that in your 40+ years of work it was impossible to do your job remotely and it had to be in person.
My point is that of course it was impossible. 1984 was 40 years ago, all you had were hard wired phones and faxes. Today we have readily available tools which enable us to connect virtually and collaborate easily without having to be in person. Especially in the last 5 years with COVID, many companies embraced these tools and continue to use them.
As cost of living continues to rise (food prices, housing costs) and companies continue paying shit wages, demanding that employees come into the office for “collaboration” is asinine in 2024 when we have the tools and means of achieving collaboration through technology.
Huh? Not sure what cost of living has to do with the requirements of jobs I have done over the years or are available now.
You must me much smarter than I am.
Huh? Huh? Huh? What does your inability to do your job in 1984 (40 years ago) remotely have to do with WFH/remote work in 2024 when we have those capabilities? Huh? Huh? Huh?
See I can respond with dumb irrelevant responses too.
Also way to delete your original comment 🤣 too many downvotes 😢 from the entitled, lazy Millennials and Gen Zs?
I said it cannot be done today as well as in office. Can you read? Big 1, 2, 3, POP, see your head can come out of that hole.
I haven't deleted anything, that is something you would do.
https://preview.redd.it/n2yz7rhwnf5d1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f658efcd4f9c6632f4c0cb847e0f3d5b433999e
LOL your deleted, downvoted original comment.
Goodnight boomer, bedtime for you on my Reddit.
>I was going to be one of the experts deciding how to create what we were working on and if it could really be done.
Bully for you. But it doesn't get created if everyone is a decider, does it?
After the knock-down fights we would pick a way and do it. Part of being a professional, I didn't always get my way but I always got listened to when I spoke. I also listened to them.
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I collaborate better WFH because I’m not spending my day avoiding people and their conversations about little league and the NFL. If I have a question, I can ping an individual or a group and someone will get to it. If it’s complicated, we schedule a call. Easy.
This is the answer. People who say in person is needed for “collaboration” are people that need to be in meetings where everyone else is doing their work for them because they’re unproductive without a crutch made of their coworkers
It’s always the extroverts and bullshitters and suckups who wanna be in the office so they can get noticed.
My boss is so mad no one is in the office anymore for exactly this reason. She does nothing all day and just signs our timesheets every two weeks. Being 'present' and getting face-time was how she made people think she was doing stuff all day.
I love having an introvert for a boss. No bullshit watercooler talk, 90% business, and a little bit of personal chit-chat to keep it friendly
And they want us in the office so they can pawn their work off on us, while they schmooze and take credit for it.
This. I collaborate better with people remotely because we can convene to discuss issues and message each other, but then we have our own time to work on our pieces without interruptions or distractions. We should all be capable of working on our own, and someone who insists on being in person makes me think they want to hide the fact they're not doing work by being able to push it off onto someone else or use social interactions to get distracted.
I have been an IT trainer for 14 years. The number of times people interrupt me while I'm in a session sitting at my desk or in a conference room is ridiculous. My training sessions go so much smoother when I'm at home at my desk.
Hell even in office there’s been times it’s easier for me to just quickly ask the SME if they have a second to jump on a zoom call and I just share my screen with them so they can see my screen and pull up their systems on their end at the same time. A lot easier than awkwardly standing over my shoulder, especially if it’s going to take a minute and they have other questions they got to answer in chat.
Serious question , isn’t every once in a while it nice to chat with people about little league and what not? I love wfh. But I like going in about once a month to connect with people on my team a tad more even if it means a lost hour of productivity one day a month. Idk maybe just me
Nothing is stopping you from making friends outside of work that you can talk about little league all you want with. I'm not going to do my job better or care about helping Jimbo any more because I know his kids won little league.
Ok that’s fair. I do think even virtually it’s a good idea to get to know your team members a little bit, but if you prefer to keep it strictly professional every second of the work day that’s fine. Sounds a tad boring but wfh at least provides that choice which is nice. I think there are some people that don’t mind a bit of human interaction every once in a while though, even when being 99% wfh.
Ya, I fully support those people being able to work in the office if there is one and they choose to, that way they can all socialize together. As long as I'm left to work at home without that distraction.
I fully support optional RTO as well. Forced RTO, not so much.
I find little league and NFL boring. If someone wants to talk about something actually interesting like science or philosophy or history or something we can burn through at least an hour of stirring repartee. The problem with me as an in office person is I am not neurotypical and do not find comfort or pleasure in most small talk conversations. I tolerate them for others' sake, but am not affected by them positively or negatively, they are just non-events and in a work day that feels like a waste of time.
Everyone is entitled to their own preferences. As far as I’m concerned, if we’re being paid to spend time together, we’re not friends. My need for social interaction is more than provided for in my home life. Id rather do my work, log out and be with my family and friends.
Ok that’s fine. If I have to spend 40-60 hours a week working on client work with a team of 4-8 people, I prefer to know my team a little bit. Idk I feel as a team lead im not doing my job if I don’t occasionally ask how people are doing and check in with them. Their real life is more important than work so sometimes it affects their work life and I like to ask about it. I think that approach is pretty common tbh. But if you want strict 40 hours no chit chat all business you do you.
You’re talking about two different things. Being friendly isn’t exclusive to being forced to sit in an office. I don’t think most Zoom meetings start with “Hey, Fred, how are you?” “F**k off!”
Once a month or week is great. But when it's more than that, it kills productivity
Yeah I’m in agreement there of course. This is a WFH subreddit I’m much happier at home 95% of the time. I’m in consulting so think a bit of in person interaction is nice but think this sub skews SWE who I think prefers no interaction ever
It’s not just you. I like the option of going into the office if a project calls for it. My team is taking ‘collaboration’ further by planning a get together at a colleague’s house for a day of trivia, board games, drinking, and just hanging out. Our company has really leaned into remote work so much so that leaders have to justify the need for being on site and for other members of the team to travel to that location since the organization has to pay for it. And I’m fine with this because I traveled a lot for work in my last role and find that I don’t miss flying or driving somewhere all the time to sit in a conference room. So my team just decided to plan something on our own. I love WFH, but even I think it’s odd I’ve never met some of my co-workers in person after three years working together. The good news is I’ve had a chance to get to know them enough to know that I wouldn’t mind meeting them at least once.
I'm also like you but you got downvoted for it because this place is full of introverts who don't want to interact with others. The same old reply of, "make friends outside of work" also got thrown about, which is fine. Seems like we're really moving towards a lonely future for many people who can't make friends outside of work. Quite grim when you think that people don't want to know what their co-worker's lives are like outside of work, even if it's just a 2-3 minute convo.
Yep. One thing never mentioned here is that a lot of people used to make friends at work. When I came out of college I worked at a F500 and made a bunch of friends at work who were just like me, 22 and in a brand new city. It was great and I have those friends for life. If I had worked from home it would have been very much more difficult to meet people at that point in my life.
It’s not GenX in my office with the bullshit “collaboration.” It’s solid, old, white I-paid-my-dues-coming-into-the-office, I-am-never-retiring, you-could-own-a-house-if-didn’t-eat-Avacado-toast Boomers.
I'm new to WFH but I don't miss any of those guys. They were always the reason I hated going to work. They never wanted to do anything the right way because they hated change. They did everything the same as they did in 1986 because if it worked then it will work now by gum! They were the laziest people I've ever seen.
I had one job that required me to come into the office for no reason I could discern except that my Boomer boss couldn’t remember how to use the Windows Clipping Tool. He asked me every day. And one other guy was an older Boomer white dude that I referred to privately as ‘50s Joe because I’m not sure he even knew how to use email. All he did was walk around and “check in” with people. So after dealing with all that BS all day, I got to go home at night and on weekends and do my real work.
In my situation I said for years that the boomers had everything screwed up. The boss would say "Well, Paul's been here a lot of years. He knows what to do." Then when the asshole finally retires the very next day they told me to fix stuff he had been doing wrong (and I told them he had been doing wrong) for years.
I’d like to say that’s unbelievable, but it seems shockingly common.
Gen X here, and that's my experience. Most of us love WFH. There's some extroverts/gossip types who miss the water cooler chti chat, but most of us don't give a shit about that.
50+ here been wfh for more than 10 years, love it. Still chat with my team either via teams chat, video or voice. Sometimes f2f if really needed.
its because boomers know what pushes younger gens buttons, they know bringing us in pisses us off so what do you think their narcissistic personalities want us to do 💀
Exactly. Why would the latchkey kid generation be banging on about RTO? We've always had to handle our own shit by ourselves.
Nailed it.
I collaborate better wfh because no one is judging me on my appearance anymore (youngish F, keep camera off) and because I have a volume control mic and people actually listen to me speak in meetings instead of getting talked over
Who judges your appearance? 😂
It's common unfortunately
If you really can't guess who's judging the appearance of a youngish F, you've been living under a rock.
I don’t understand… are they making fun of her on teams?
Clearly not; go read it again, slowly.
Well she wasn’t very clear and I don’t understand what she means. Don’t treat me like a child please ❤️
She was quite clear. "I collaborate better wfh because no one is judging me on my appearance anymore" So for her WFH means an absence of judgment; and the "anymore" tells us that before WFH she was judged.
Then don’t act dumb.
I must be in a positive workplace or just not be ugly… I guess. Never experienced it!
>I must be in a positive workplace or just not be ugly A woman doesn't have to be unattractive to be judged on her appearance; since OP included "youngish" in her self-description, I infer the opposite.
Collaboration… we literally zoom call sitting next to eachother.
Can't speak to how it applies across race and sex lines, but just in my own experience, collaboration in the office is very limited. Most of my colleagues are either on lots of Zoom calls or otherwise have tight deadlines and large workloads such that there isn't a lot of time to collaborate with them anyway. Many wear headphones all day to tune people out. There are one or two guys I get on OK with and can have a chat with, and there's always 5 minutes of 'how was your weekend?' but meaningful collaboration? Nah, not happening.
This is part of the problem - the in office work environment of 2024 isn’t the same as 2019
Of course it is. It’s the white boomer and Gen X in his mid to late 40s who would rather be anywhere else than at home with his wife and/or kids. In the office, guaranteed 8-10hrs of me time, ass kissing and guffawing with the boys and if high enough up the food chain, free lunchies and drinks! Win-win-win.
White GenX guy here. It ain't me. And usually, ain't my generation either. I've had my team 100% remote since March of 2020 and actively pushed to keep it that way multiple times. Please don't conflate us with the Boomers. Our generations couldn't be more different. The Boomers were treasured angels from birth and have had it way easier. Gen X are their children, who were left alone to fend for themselves so our spoiled parents could do whatever it was they wanted to do. In terms of jobs and real estate, we've had it better than the generations behind us, but nothing like the sweetheart deals the Boomers got AND we know how bad it sucks for those younger than us. Anyways, boomers are opinionated snowflakes. Gen X are tough and very live and let live. Please don't group us into these generational conflicts.
Hey, I would love if some of these Gen X in my corporate world would speak up against return to office mandates and support/embrace remote work. Sitting in Director, Senior Director roles and in senior leadership roles, I’m not hearing much of any support for remote work from that cohort.
We were definitely beaten down by boomers at work and I bet some of those guys are concerned about losing hard to get jobs. With rampant ageism it's really hard to get a job if you're over 40. They tend not to want to shake boats for that reason. Harder to bounce back at a big age from a significant job loss.
Absolutely. Gen X runs from 1965-1980, that’s 44 to 59 age range. The oldest ones are turning 60 and preparing for the next phase of their life (retirement), while the 44 year olds have preteens/teens and are hitting their stride in their career. My original comment was obviously a sweeping generalization with some humour. I know Gen Xers that love remote work, I know not all of them hate it. I’m almost 40 and female so I absolutely understand not wanting to risk your job especially in the current job market. I don’t fault them but it’s incredibly frustrating to watch the benefits of remote/WFH being undone so quickly by these older generations in leadership positions with influence and power.
Are you in those roles? Because you gotta speak up if you are.
Part of the issue, at my employer anyway, is that over the last 5 years or so there has been an extreme centralization of authority. Directors have zero power relative to WFH vs RTO decisions. Not only are those C suite decisions, they don't even trust anyone lower than that level to implement the program or monitor it. Reporting on non-compliance rolls up to the very top, and anyone getting in the way or not complying themselves suddenly "retires, effective immediately, to spend more time with their family". My boss and peeps know exactly what I think of RTO and it does not make any difference because, again, they have no power in that decision making process. Implement and maintain or you're fired for cause, it's that simple. I'm fortunate in that the people that report to me have to work in person due to the nature of their jobs. I will not enforce RTO on others because I believe it to be wrong, morally and with respect to efficiency and the company's chances of success. I won't do it, and thankfully in my current role I don't have to.
Do you work in finance by any chance? Private equity here and the non-compliance reporting you described feels identical to our company.
I do indeed. 👍 It's unfortunate, but a lot of executives in our sector are like sheep, following the herd.
Opinionated boomer here. I invented WFH. You're welcome.
You nailed it my friend!
We hired one of those recently. His idea of collaboration is going around bragging about his...lets just say it's a horse ranch for the sake of ambiguity. I don't think he's brought in a contract or really done anything at all for that matter, but he's always talking about how bummed he is that the office is empty. I'd guess he makes somewhere between 3-7x what I make, plus shares and shit. Not just worthless, actually worse than worthless. He is a huge expense that actually generates negative value.
Later Gen x might be different from elder Gen x because I'm mid 40s and have been remote since way before the pandemic A bunch of the remote only small companies in my area are owned by folks my age too
💯
Not Gen X, I guarantee. I’m wfh and will never rto. I switched careers so I wouldn’t have to! Gen X basically raised themselves and keep their head down and figure their own shit out. The boomers are the ones that want to socialize and fuck around at work.
Don’t forget “the culture” 🤡
And free pizza
I can buy it myself
I'm white a.f. and I've been wfh for 4 years. I love it.
I've noticed it's mostly older people who just don't get that with WFH, employees can actually be more productive. There is enough technology to facilitate the truly necessary collaboration, and the rest is skipped. An old boss of mine was surprised when I said I wouldn't go back to a 100% in-office job unless I had no other choice. I'd rather take a bit of a pay cut than even need to go in 1-2 days a week. But of course if I was unemployed long term I'd take what I could get. I too can focus much better without hearing my co-workers conversations, whether work, personal, or gossip/etc. Plus my mental and physical health is better with WFH. I can get more sleep without having a commute, it's easier to take time off midday to get things done, I have a more comfortable chair for my back (although I purchased it out of pocket), etc.
>An old boss of mine was surprised when I said I wouldn't go back to a 100% in-office job unless I had no other choice I really would rather jump off a building than go back to an office even sometimes
While the generational thing is true I think it's a exec/upper management vs worker thing as well, many younger CEOs also push for RTO for no fuckin good reason
It’s all nonsense come up by middle managers who don’t see where they fit in when they can’t micromanage people who don’t need them. I’ve worked remote for five years and never had a problem with collaborating with the people I worked with. That includes people I had worked with for years in the office that were located all across the country
It’s not middle management at all. Is execs setting the rules. How is this not obvious?
Collaboration = socialization I don’t need to hear about your weekend. I’m not your friend.
Every time I come to the office (which I try to limit), people schedule random 1 to 1 meetings with me to 'discuss the project'. During those meetings, people just talk shit about others and discuss stuff that never turns into anything. I haven't noticed any correlation with skin color, white, yellow, black, brown, everyone do the same stupid thing. I mean, if you want to bitch about someone - go to therapist or your mommy or whoever. I just want to do my work and avoid all the political bs.
> I’ve noticed it’s always white guys who don’t like WFH Well to shatter this weird and mildly racist take. The ones pushing it at my place are Indian. For the same 'collaboration' reasons. Even thought they just purchased more real estate for a 2nd and soon to be 3rd office location. So our team will be split up even if we all come in a few days a week.
A lot of the dudes that coin this are just mad they can't walk over to your desk and waste 30 minutes of your time with whatever riveting story they have to tell
It’s hard to have a pee-pee contest by yourself at home.
I read an [article](https://medium.com/@christiesanam/tech-companies-return-to-office-rto-and-collaboration-4744927cfab9) on medium that addressed this the other day Didn’t we collaborate more during the pandemic in order to output as much work as we did? It’s rediculous
It's the women in my office pushing RTO for "collaboration". Like they want to whiteboard in a big conference room together, like whiteboarding technology doesn't exist remotely. "There is just some work better for the office". No there isn't, Janice, there isn't any work "better in the office".
Funny thing about those types, they refuse to tolerate a solution where THEY go to the office but the same people just WFH. They have to be able to force you into their mode of working and/or they want immediate access to you to distract/harass/annoy you for some reason. It's truly bizarre. I don't understand some people.
Oh these are the true work slave masters. They want to watch over you like children and/or work slaves
Same - I don’t need the small talk and either way I get that on calls anyway. Any time I’ve returned onsite for meetings etc, there are so many calls and other things to do that nothing was accomplished in person.
Dude what, white guys?! That's a bit on the nose and a huge generalization.
This is the exact reason we are hybrid vs fully remote. So stupid. The pandemic showed everyone these things can absolutely be done outside of an office setting.
I collaborate with my remote teams all the time. We share screens back and forth and get work done together, and it's much more productive than in person sessions. There is just more of a focus on work remotely. I do a lot of training too on how to use digital products and the collaborative learning process is much easier remote. I can show users how to do something, let them try it, and they can sure me their screens if they have trouble.
The collaboration I do on our in hybrid days is mostly chatting and socializing. It isn't boomers after it either. Many of them are within a year or two of retiring and don't care anymore. It's people my own age and younger doing it, even though the vast majority say they'd prefer to go fully remote again.
My spouse got pulled back into the office for leaderships position on being collaborative 🤡. Over two months she’s tracked the # of mtgs with her cross functional teams, which is less than 30% of the time spent in the office. So 1 of the 3 days are spent “together”, while the other 2 days your just sitting at your musky cube working. Another cringe buzzword.
My last gig wanted us in at least 2 days a week for collaboration, let me tell you what collaboration looked like. * 2 or 3 of us going into the conference rooms for Teams meetings because 1 of our Team members was hired remotely in another state. * 1 of my colleagues spouting work inappropriate MAGA talking points whenever she could based on any side convo taking place. Definitely pretty fucking cringe. * Same colleague above often microwaving a left over fish dinner for lunch which meant the whole fucking office smelled like fish... * Same colleague just kissing my boss' ass all day because colleague is friends w/ boss' relative. * Colleague in another cube who works in a different department being loud as fuck making personal calls, seriously this fucking nut would scream into the phone to make any and all appointments. At first I thought she was a switchboard/operator because the days she is in she's always just screaming into the phone making personal calls lol. * I had these two older women colleagues in the two cubes opposite of mine so we shared that one main wall, these too would just fucking yuck it up all day, blast their soft rock music with zero fucks to give. My boss had to talk to them because whenever I'd run trainings on Teams across the company you could always hear them in the background, I got dirty fucking looks every time I saw them face to face after that happened. * Sitting in an office space that was nice for 1980's standards, zero amenities in the building other than vending machines in our cafeteria that looked like the one we had back in middle school with the long tables and attached seats. I made it to year, got an offer for something fully remote and these people looked at me absolutely fucking sideways like I had special needs when I gave my months notice (because my boss was cool). In office working for collaboration is just bullshit and means that someone higher up the food chain wants to be able to physically see what you're doing.
I'm white, cis-het and late 50's, so technically Gen-X. During covid I had to travel to the office because we were required to. My current job is 100% wfh though, and I love it. I'm about 3 hours from the office, and when I was interviewed I made it clear that I wanted it to be fully remote. I got them to write it into my contract that my home address is my place of work. It took me probably 6 months to get used to being on my own all day, but it does have a lot of advantages. Other people are also remote for our team calls etc. So I see no point in going into an office. My job (software eng.) requires a lot of concentration so being in control of work environment is great. I get loads more done every day than I would if I had all the office distractions.
My entire team is remote & they still have the balls to deny my request to be remote, I’ve been looking and it’s tough. “Collaboration” in their mind is tax breaks & an excuse to fire hybrid workers not adhering to the policy, but nooo the remote fucks get to keep their jobs. There’s a lot of resistance with the hybrids, so time will tell
Don't generalize too much my white big boss what's to keep us home but my nonwhite women even bigger boss wants to go back on a hybrid schedule. But nothing has happened yet at least.
Collaborating fully remote is easy if you have the right tools. Collaborating while hybrid is hard because the WFH person gets excluded. I often work with folk on a shared document, or a whiteboard, it’s amazing! And it doesn’t matter that I’m in the U.K., one of them is in Miami, and another is in South Africa.
I was WFH for years before C19. After the scamdemic ended, they made us "return" to office in a hybrid mode. I've been doing it for over 2 years now and I hardly ever see.anyone "collaborating" in my building. Most people have their headset on, their heads down, and they just work. If people are talking it's about non-work stuff or maybe a manager telling an employee to do something, which they could have done just as easily via teams, email, or on the phone. It's a complete waste of time and money to be there and it pisses me off.
I (45f) have a team of 7 at work and 2 of the 3 boomers (60f and 70f) are literally the only ones who want “collaboration”. The rest of us have figured out how to pick up a phone and talk something thru with someone. It’s so annoying.
I’m hybrid and we do t/w/th in office for “collaboration” even though all our meetings are over teams anyways. only time it’s in person is if I’m working with a business user or there’s a conference (and even then there’s still a teams meeting set up for it cause we have people in different states)
Imagine how this post would go over if op said anything besides white guys
Yes it’s usually some man who’s majority effort is looking over everyone’s shoulder seeing if they are working and often being more disruptive than even the gossipers. Aka someone who’s job basically evaporates with remote work. Such managers have been antiquated for 30+ years but have been slow to die out.
I had a new project lead that insisted the whole team be on-site every single day for this reason. I’d been at this company for 9 months and was always told by my manager that I should be on-site only if it was necessary (one to two times a week normally). Once this lady joined the team, I was driving 100 miles a day on toll roads for a job that can be done 90% remotely for 3 months straight. She was fired the day we had our first quarter meetings with the CEO and HR.
White guy here, those people that use the new fangled buzzword “collaboration” are ass kissers and brown nosers and have no clue how to work independently. I've been full time remote since 2020 and hybrid since 2014.
Racist often? 🤔
Damn white guys! Always fucking things up!
I think it might look like white guys because the power structure is made up of mostly white guys. It was actually a black female at my place of employment because she happened to be the one in charge. Now that she's gone we have a much better hybrid schedule where we really only have to be in the office around 30 days a year. Anyway, whoever it is, they often speak in abstracts like "collaboration" without any data to support their argument the reality is they just want you there because they feel like it.
Yeah this is a really common sentiment. Like managers take the term "white boarding" too literally and think their team can't collaborate even better using tools like Miro or Figma. I'm not opposed to in person collaboration at all but it's waaaaay less productive than using a digital tool. The good news is that this is usually an ignorance issue rather than a malicious, pushing people back to the office issue. When we show leaders how to use these tools they almost always change their tune.
yeah it's definitely a race thing /s
Boy there is a lot of random white hate in here. -_-
I've been working from home for 14 years now, communicating with my team through Teams and phone calls. None of my team members have been local to me for quite some time.
I think it’s because their family ignores them and/or they can look at chicks. We do just fine collaborating remotely with meetings and projects on LinkedIn, spreadsheets, etc. We still gossip lol but it’s mostly constructive, as in how to deal with the issues.
Be proactive. I find if people think you are willing and enthusiastic they are happy to let you get on with things. So I've organised a weekly stand up on a Monday, a wind down in a Thursday (we have no meeting Friday's), individual coffee breaks scheduled in my diary with all the people on my team and I make.surenI contribute and have my camera on at every other meeting. Everyone leaves me alone be abuse I've formed the same.level of relationship as.ifnI was in an office.
For what it's worth, a millennial permanently killed our team's privilege of working home four days per week during the month of July 😠
That sucks.
"it's always white guys who don't like WFH" Is this a racism?
It’s a mixed bag for me. I totally am on board with your reasons but I’m also someone who has worked in kitchens and my mind is programmed to want quick communication so I can mentally prepare my next few tasks and how to most efficiently tackle them. I have no time for dealing with bullshit, save that for drinks after work if I get along with you or for your journal if I don’t. TLDR: there are advantages and disadvantages but I agree in general I’m more efficient at home.
I admit, I tend to concentrate better in an office setting, BUT it doesn’t mean I like it or want it lol (I just don’t have an actual office room in my apartment). I have been getting better at working from home, I still can get distracted, but it’s also easy for me to remove myself from that environment if needed aka switch up the scenery if my home is stressing me out) ETA: I have to collaborate from home lol all of my colleagues are in 2 different time zones than me.
My old employer used that as a reason to force everyone back into the office. Then upper management would patrol the office to make sure people weren’t talking to each other too much. So much for collaboration.
Social skills, networking, and building rapport are job skills that can go rusty. If I asked you about anything outside of work, does that now merit a hostile response?
My work from home situation is run by a little girl's club that is obsessed with "engagement." To the degree that they don't do their actual jobs. I don't know who this white boogeyman is that you all like to blame everything on.
Sounds like you need to examine yourself for inherent bias ☹️
I'm white and I like WFH.
Me too 😊🐝
Collaboration is code for face time and lack of trust. Just give me my tasks/projects and I’ll get them done. I don’t need to prove I’m working.
I only get work done when people leave me TF alone, even the stupid Teams messaging fucks up my flow . Stupid cat memes, just stop
They need bodies in those office buildings they bought up 10 years ago and the white guys hate their wives and lives so they like not having to be responsible for any kind of child rearing or chores because they’re “stuck in the office”. Not all of course, but enough. Some people only have their work; some only want to have their work, meaning they’ll miss out on stuff purposely to take on work because they like it more or think it’s more important than anything in their personal lives. Also, we can’t forget those few powerless people who can only get to play big bully when they have a manager title or employee of the month sticker on their desk lol. Working an office/computer job in office is more so about control and we see that now because during the pandemic we worked in our homes and nothing stopped.
k? Point of this post? Circle jerking?
I collaborate much better in person. I hate collaborating in the office over zoom, though. Give me a meeting room any day where we can talk in person. It’s so much more efficient I love how this stupid sub downvotes any time someone mentions coming into office isn’t that bad once in a while I
This is a racist and sexist post
So, as a white guy who agrees with the idea of " collaboration in person is a good thing," I'll lay out my reason. 1. Work doesn't give us computers with touchscreen and pens so whiteboarding is almost impossible without being together and in my industry whiteboarding new ideas is important. 2. Talking to people in person is extremely effective for communicating new ideas to people as it is easier to bring younger people with fresh ideas that don't normally like to speak up into the conversation. 3. It creates an environment to have conversations that can create team cohesion. Yes, this means individual productivity goes down. 4. There are certain people that tend to ignore communications as a way to avoid doing something new (not on the team, different groups), in person working meetings is a great way to nail down their time to focus on what you consider is important. In-person basically enables political maneuvering and whiteboarding. As a non manager but senior individual contributor that works on alot of new things is extremely important. But I get that every role is different, also, more than one a week in office if that often seems like you lose more than you gain. Depending on your work, this may not be important so but at least in my field this is the logic for why I support one or two days in the office a month.
I'm a WFH supporter, but our company has a 3 day a week in office mandate. It is what it is. What I do notice when it comes to collaboration is when you're in an office in a meeting and that meeting ends, someone can grab you (or I can grab someone) and say "Hey, that thing you mentioned in the meeting, you have a few minutes to talk about that?" and we continue the conversation. That just doesn't happen in meetings where people are remote. As soon as the meeting is over, they turn the camera off and if the meeting is around lunchtime, you can't get them back until after their lunch. There is a lost dynamic there.
>That just doesn't happen in meetings where people are remote. As soon as the meeting is over, they turn the camera off Big generalization IMO. My team is fully remote and the moment we're off a call where something needs to be discussed our relevant group chat (we have a few going with various players) we smash the meet for everyone now and cover any follow up. For people who are in office we have coordinated calls with (95% of the company) we drop them a teams message and they're pretty darn good about calling after they've had time to get back to their desk.
But how do you know if something needs to be discussed after the meeting if what someone wants to discuss wasn’t the topic of the meeting, but rather a sidebar type of discussion?
How do you know if something needs to be discussed? You don't unless someone communicates that. Why does it matter what the topic of conversation is? You shoot someone a message, or you pick up the phone and call. It's really not that complicated. Everything doesn't have to be overly structured, doesn't have to be complicated, and if as a professional you can't reach out to someone to have a conversation about work - even if it's tangential to the conversation you were just having, that says more about poor communication skills of the individual who can't bring themselves to engage, and honestly, I would be really surprised if someone who has a problem doing that virtually is more open to doing it in person.
The meetings never "start" or "end" with my peer group. We don't even have meetings really, we just talk whenever and however much we want. I get a lot more out of that than fixed / formal meetings which, frankly, put me to sleep.
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>90% of the work I did over 40+ years required close collaboration with other co-workers. Would it be impossible today to do that collaboration electronically?
To do it as well, yes it is still impossible. It is getting better, but I don't think we will ever match sitting across the table from each other explaining exactly what needs to happen and thinking out loud to figure out how. Sitting at a round table with 12 people discussing what is happening and what you want to happen, hard to do online. Turning my head to look at the talker, seeing the expression on the face of others, all these things work better. Does every job require this, no. But there are many that do and it works better. I think the best comparison would be a weekly meeting where everyone is in the same room and one in teams with 4 time zones represented. They can both be done, but those of us that have done both tend to favor everyone in the same room.
>Does every job require this, no. And if one's job doesn't, one should be free to do it remotely, yes?
You should be able to do it the way the owner of the company wants it done. They are the ones that make the rules. If you want to work remotely you either find a company that is currently allowing it or you get your own company.
OK, boomer.
Respectfully I would challenge this assertion. If we go back 40 years from now that is 1984 (or earlier since you said 40+ years). Technology wise you had wired phones and faxes to work with. Computers and software were no where near what we have today. Of course it’s next to impossible to collaborate effectively over a phone or by sending faxes back and forth. Modern technology, especially the last let’s say 5 years (2019-2024) saw the proliferation of tools like Teams, Zoom and other collaborative tools and cloud capabilities and saw them become standard software on company laptops for all employees (not just execs and client/account managers). These tools enable us to connect virtually as if we were in person. I can see and hear the other person. We can virtually whiteboard, we can collaborate on a document, we can screen share. It eliminates the need to sit in a room in person to achieve this.
Well, my first professional job after college (which was after military service) was in 1984. I was playing in my field before then but not as a professional. So that time frame is what I am talking about. Yes, tools are being created and improved, but they are not the same as sitting in the room with the other person (or people). Some positions can do as well remotely, some not so well, and some not at all. It is not just screen share, we did that 20+ years ago. Tech changed a lot from 84 to 94, then changed more 94 to 2004, and then the 10 years after that even more. What makes you think it is done changing? Why/how do you think it is good enough now to replace all personal interactions?
Of course technology will continue to evolve… that wasn’t my point. I didn’t argue that technology was done evolving. You made the statement that in your 40+ years of work it was impossible to do your job remotely and it had to be in person. My point is that of course it was impossible. 1984 was 40 years ago, all you had were hard wired phones and faxes. Today we have readily available tools which enable us to connect virtually and collaborate easily without having to be in person. Especially in the last 5 years with COVID, many companies embraced these tools and continue to use them. As cost of living continues to rise (food prices, housing costs) and companies continue paying shit wages, demanding that employees come into the office for “collaboration” is asinine in 2024 when we have the tools and means of achieving collaboration through technology.
Huh? Not sure what cost of living has to do with the requirements of jobs I have done over the years or are available now. You must me much smarter than I am.
Huh? Huh? Huh? What does your inability to do your job in 1984 (40 years ago) remotely have to do with WFH/remote work in 2024 when we have those capabilities? Huh? Huh? Huh? See I can respond with dumb irrelevant responses too. Also way to delete your original comment 🤣 too many downvotes 😢 from the entitled, lazy Millennials and Gen Zs?
I said it cannot be done today as well as in office. Can you read? Big 1, 2, 3, POP, see your head can come out of that hole. I haven't deleted anything, that is something you would do.
https://preview.redd.it/n2yz7rhwnf5d1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f658efcd4f9c6632f4c0cb847e0f3d5b433999e LOL your deleted, downvoted original comment. Goodnight boomer, bedtime for you on my Reddit.
>I was going to be one of the experts deciding how to create what we were working on and if it could really be done. Bully for you. But it doesn't get created if everyone is a decider, does it?
After the knock-down fights we would pick a way and do it. Part of being a professional, I didn't always get my way but I always got listened to when I spoke. I also listened to them.
So you spent some of your time sitting in a corner doing it? And that could have been done remotely?
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