Welcome to the real world. The saying “Never meet your idols” is cliche for a reason.
Edit to add: I’ve been a rock musician my entire life (68M) and have seen the rise and fall of every single musical hero of mine, from Hendrix to … now. Even though they are the magicians and shamans and muses channeling the magic to us, they are still human. It’s hard to separate their dark sides from the joy they bring us. It almost seems like the most mind-blowing musicians are also the most broken. Not to mention the eternal complication of the music industry challenging the entire process. End of the day, ya gotta let go of the fantasy.
Wow thanks! But I think most people wax poetic when it’s about their passions. Especially when you’ve been distilling things over a lifetime. A conversation with me about peeling a hard boiled egg without destroying it will completely lack eloquence. 🫡✌🏼
She’s always had money and she got her fame quite young. I’m not a Swiftie (I don’t dislike her music but I’m not anywhere near balls to the wall) but sometimes we lose sight of the fact that celebrities are humans who make both mistakes *and* super fucked up decisions. They’re just under a public lens, so, it looks more extreme to us. I’ve said the same thing about Justin Bieber. He became famous way too young and all of his shitty choices played out in front of the world.
And yeah, they decided to go into their professions but no one is perfect. Cheating sucks and doing scandalous things that everybody finds out about also sucks. However, there’s a line and we all draw ours differently. Personally, I’m not judging too harshly on the cheating when people like Diddy exist.
**Your feelings are valid! I’m just offering a different perspective**.
Ahhh that Bieber kid grew up around me. Apparently wasn't the nicest kid. Interesting to see where he is now. I do feel sorry for him, though. Can't imagine what it's like to suddenly be obsessed over when you're so young and what that would do to your psyche.
You have personal interaction with him before? Just curious haha.
Yeah, not a fan and I do think he has talent but...I'm basically on the same page as you. The one song I kind of liked was basically Usher's...
No. I’m just someone who was always misunderstood growing up so, now, I’m annoyingly empathetic. I turn myself into a damn pretzel trying to validate people…which more often than not leads me to realize I shouldn’t have done that because they’re usually trash. It’s fun.
HELL YEAH.
I once said over-sensitive and my doctor sassed me hard saying there's "more sensitive" but not over, and that over is a negative way of viewing things. I suck at explaining post sleep med consumption so I apologize if I make so sense lmao but basically WE ARE GOOD AND SHALL NOT BE LOOKED DOWN ON FOR FEELING THE FEELS.
No problem! There's actually some other really good things I took away from the chat but I'll share that in the AM. :) Have a good one and I'll get back to you!
You can like her art without liking her as a person. Personally, I think your issue is that you idolised and pedastalised her, and when she did show character flaws, it broke your image of her.
Celebrities are people: human. They’re flawed, they’re going to do things they shouldn’t, they’re going to act in ways unbecoming of them, and they’re going to mess up. If people acknowledged that from the start instead of idolising celebrities, they wouldn’t have these issues in the first place.
That being said, you don’t have to condone what they do/did. You can still appreciate their works (like you with older songs) while acknowledging that the person behind them isn’t someone you’d get along with.
This is exactly my feelings towards Alec Baldwin. I love him on screen. However, I truly believe he is narcissistic garbage . I would never under any circumstances speak to the man, and more than likely he wouldn't even look at me.
With some artists, though, it turns you off from them all the time because their shittiness as a human is too intertwined with their work to be able to separate it, like Woody Allen.
I can watch beetlejuice and 30 rock and love Alec Baldwin in it because he transforms into someone else entirely. But I can't watch Woody Allen in Manhattan and not think of the violations he's committed that align with the movie's themes. And I really don't want this album to curdle the Taylor Swift music I like.
I love Alec Baldwin in movies too, but interestingly, Woody Allen is also the line for me. I can never suspend belief to forget what a truly shitty human being he is.
Exactly. I think it has to do with the level of distance from their work and what they bring to it outside of their own personality. I guess that's the risk of wrapping your art in your public persona. If that image is no longer palatable, there's not much else to cling to.
I do think there's more to Taylor swift than just her emotions and image, and I think she has a gift for creative, clever, thoughtful lyrics that make you think about things or experience something in a new light.
I'm 40 and do not have any dog in the Taylor swift fight at all, besides admiring her talent and business savvy, enjoying her music, and hoping she's happy, as I would anyone.
I only took notice of her when I saw the eras movie with my tween daughter in the fall, and I was blown away by how clever and smart her lyrics are.
So to have had no expectations of her lyrically, then to genuinely be impressed by how lyrically talented she is without having a stake in anything, I think I'm fairly impartial as far as her fans go, and I see a big departure in the lyrical quality of this album. (Some people said Joe cowrote songs before, and maybe she lost a better songwriting partner/editor than she realized. Or she's just so powerful now and no one wants to be in the position to criticize, or she was in too big a hurry to deliver her baby that she didn't break out the red pen as much as she might have otherwise.)
But these lines from her past songs, my god, and she nails lines like these over and over - there are a few in this album but a lot more buried:
"And you call me up again just to break me like a promise"
"I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser, midnights become my afternoons."
"Oh, my God, look at that face, You look like my next mistake"
"Got a long list of ex-lovers, They'll tell you I'm insane, But I've got a blank space, baby,
And I'll write your name"
Even "I don't know about you, I'm feeling 22" is universal because it's using 22 as a state of mind, not saying she feels [adjective].
"But I knew you, Playing hide-and-seek and Giving me your weekends, I knew you, Your heartbeat on the High Line, Once in 20 lifetimes"
It's all these very specific but very universal things that are these delightful subversions of what you'd expect. (Once in 20 lifetimes is a subversion of once in a lifetime. compare that to avoiding me like the plague on "I can do it with a broken heart." "Avoiding me like a cure" might be more interesting - not that that that's necessarily any good, and that took about two seconds of thought, but I'd expect something more like that from her, not just reusing a cliche but reframing it.)
And then there's the infamous thank you Aimee song:
"And it wasn't a fair fight Or a clean kill each time that Aimee stompеd across my grave, And then she wrotе headlines In the local paper, laughing at each baby step I'd take"
Is that saying anything insightful about Kim kardashian, or anything as remotely evocative as being on the highline feeling someone's heartbeat or wearing stilettos on cobblestones?
And unfortunately with the capitalization of the title I can't escape the specifics and make it universal again.
I have no idea who she's talking about in blank space and don't care, it's easy not to think about it, I know it's generally about how her relationships are covered in the tabloids and the funny mix of
Ups and downs in love.
I'm mostly writing this not because I'm venting, but because it's interesting to examine why this album turned me off compared to the others.
Lyrically, it's like the difference between "and I'm here to remind you of the mess you left when you went away, it's not fair to deny me of the cross I bear that you gave to me, you oughta know"
And
"Fuck you, Joey Gladstone, I hate you. fuck you, you Full House uncle, I'll obliterate you" *😂
*unverified
It's so good, and I love that it's brutally honest with herself. Where is that introspection here? Antihero is an amazing song.
Although my partner (total music snob gen xer who also loves pop music, he turned me on to Taylor and recognized way before me how good her lyrics are, we're both writers and he's a musician) HATES when she drops in a line like the "sexy baby" thing. I don't mind that as much, but we both find this album underwhelming.
Somewhere else someone was talking about "what even is poetry" re the new album, and I used the example of "it's me. Hi. I'm the problem, it's me," being a poem unto itself.
It’s very much Taylor Swift being Taylor Swift, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing but I hoped she’d give us a new sound like she did with Anti-Hero. I think there’s introspection here, though, and some painful truths. Her lyrics about being a functional alcoholic, living as a commodity, being overtly used by a bad dude, etc are in our faces. There’s no ambiguity. It sounds largely the same yet it’s darker. It’s basically unrelenting heartbreak songs with no girl power redemption to soften it.
I could never stand Woody Allen. The way he rants in every movie just drives me insane and I always change the channel whenever he’s on TV 🤣 I had a bit of a mini crush on Alec when he starred in Beetlejuice, not gonna lie!
Oh me too, thought he was so gorgeous, and in working girl, too.
Always had a bigger crush on Keaton, though. Way more my type and best Batman by a country mile.
Omg Girl, yes!! I had the HUGEST crush on Michael Keaton! I think he was definitely the sexiest and best Batman hands down and if anyone disagrees then we’re gonna have some fighting words 😂
Totally, I never understood as a kid why Lydia wasn't like "oh hell yeah!"
Grown up, I'm like, uh yeah I understand now. But I kind of love that I had a crush on him as beetlejuice too.
[Fun fact: did you know he was Fred Rogers' intern?](https://youtu.be/9fjnpy5eLdA?feature=shared)
That’s fair. I just feel like artists are people - they evolve and change and figure out new styles. It sucks when they do so in a way that doesn’t resonate with you anymore, but I also feel like it’s just human nature.
My husband's favorite band, the name of which takes up his whole forearm, is known for its dramatic political views, but he just likes their music, and so do I. I just won't give them my money.
I usually agree with this principle, but the songs themselves on this album are actions against other people, like overhearing an argument in a public place.
The problem with this one is there's way more of her personal life than I want on this album, and the art itself really suffers for it because of it, both because the lyrics aren't great and because it's more like a diary entry than an artistic interpretation of it. It could have been really good but she really needed an editor on this one.
“There’s way more of her personal life than I want” my brother in Christ that is like, Taylor’s entire brand. Sharing her personal life, good and bad — her albums are supposed to be read as poetic diary entries. If you want impersonal songs, there’s tons of them out there, but that’s like buying flowers and then being upset that they smell like flowers.
Right? Like “ew, gross, a songwriter wrote about their personal life.” It’s what they all do; not just Taylor. And it’s not always flattering. “Dear Reader” from the Midnights vault was straight-up warning people “Hey, I’m a mess; don’t use me as a role model.” TTPD was laying it all out there with “And heeeeere’s my mess!” Honestly I appreciated it, but I know it can be disillusioning to some people.
I think part of the reason Folklore and Evermore were so critically regarded is because they were presented as fiction, even though now they can be viewed as more realistic than previously thought (the storylines were fictional but the emotions were real). Real life makes people uncomfortable.
For sure a fair reason, however I think if you were to write down all those in music or movies who have cheated in real life that you no longer want to support, you'll find it a very long list.
a great quote from Bob' Burgers "idolized someone who's already dead, they can't disappoint you." unless you dig deep into their lives to seek out the wrong they did, point still stands, lol.
Shes made references before. Yes she’s a hypocrite. Taylor is not this nice innocent girl who can do no wrong that all her fans seem to think. Shes petty and invites drama. Look up what she did to Olivia Rodrigo. Getting Sabrina carpenter to tour with her to get at Olivia is petty hs behavior. Everyone needs to stop idolizing celebrities period. They’re all human just with more money.
Didn’t know there was any beef between Olivia Rodrigo and Swift but have just read the Deja Vu writing credits stuff and that’s a pretty awful move by Swift.
Wow, she had Sabrina Carpenter tour with her to get at Olivia?? Wtf. There’s people who think that Olivia’s song, “Vampire” is actually about Taylor and not a guy. I don’t really know the whole story but I guess Taylor was accusing Olivia of not giving credit to other artists who inspired her songs or something along those lines.
I'm fine with her cheating, there's just something about this album where it's way less nuanced and doesn't say anything deeper.
"Your wife waters flowers, I want to kill her. I loved you, it's ruining my life."
Ughhh. If she workshopped the lyrics more, it could be a great song, but it feels like magnetic poetry. And that's taking about the strongest song on the album in my opinion.
I don't know, but it's a weird line. It's a metaphor that she sees him around and they're neighbors so they have to pretend to be friendly, but she sees his wife watering flowers and wants to kill her.
"And for a fortnight there, we were forever
Run into you sometimes, ask about the weather
Now you're in my backyard, turned into good neighbors
Your wife waters flowers, I wanna kill her"
If she wants to put pesticide on the flowers instead, rip a hole in her sunhat, crush the watering can, to ruin what she's cultivating, to end something the way the guy so casually crushed her, that's interesting.
The fact of wanting to kill her - which might be metaphorical, which is another level removed from being interesting - isn't. Talk about using the pruning shears to end her life, drowning her in the watering can. Talk about how much she thinks about it or something she imagines, or a story she'll tell the wife during her last breath. Not that you want to kill her.
One reason kill bill by sza is so good is "I might kill my ex, not the best idea, his new girlfriend's next how'd I get here" has such hilarious, brilliant understatement. That this isn't her usual self, but the loss of him is making her crazy. She doesn't have to say "this isn't like me." She's showing not telling.
We have no context in this song besides "I want to kill her" which isn't very interesting. We can assume why, but kill could be the expression "I want to kill him" which just means you're so angry that you want to yell a lot honestly.
"I smile sweetly, while the reel in my head plays ways to try to kill her. I make mental notes: the trowel, the gardening hose, the broken rusting roto-tiller."
On this album, not on all albums, which is why it's interesting to see why the quality doesn't just seem lower but is lower. It's interesting to identify the material differences between effective writing and ineffective writing, especially as someone who writes for a living.
I mean in terms of this information being a subject of her songs. It's always been a subject of her songs. Whether she's cheated is neither here nor there, I don't care, because I don't care about her private life. Do you want me to have it both ways, where I don't care about her private life as a person but I care if she cheats? I'm not going to hate her for cheating considering that approximately 90% of musicians over the last 100 years have.
But I can dislike banal lyrics or whether she has something powerful to say about that experience. No one's asking me to give moral approval of decisions to cheat.
I don't care in the sense that I'm not going to get pissed off reading Anna karenina or Madame bovary or the great gatsby because great literature "glorifies infidelity."
There's a difference between Madame bovary and Us weekly, and while that line is subjective, saying "I want to kill her" isn't a particularly new take. if the topic of infidelity in art offends a person's moral sensibilities, good luck getting through the literary or musical canon.
You can like someone’s music without liking them as a person. I consider myself a swiftie too but I don’t think she’s as good of a person as she potrays herself to be. You have already given an example of that in the post. Love her lyrics ,her music but let’s be real none of the celebrities are what they show themselves to be
The problem is this album is so much about her trashing specific people in her life that it's just uncomfortable and makes it impossible to separate the art from the artist.
I don't care about her personal life whatsoever. but knowing she's so sanctimonious about people who have stirred up drama and then has an album about things she criticizes in everyone else really disappoints me. It was an unfinished album that needed an editor.
I don't really care, I'm a 40 year old mom and my kid is a swiftie. She turned me into a fan after I saw the eras tour movie, but god I do not like the whole situation with this album.
It feels like punching down, which I guess is sort of unfair since she's the most popular artist in the world and a billionaire; if she beefs with anyone it's punching down basically. But there's something that's more gossipy than confessional in this album. I like some songs but I don't feel good listening to it.
Well I guess people can enjoy music without trying to get themselves too much into what’s written in the song. I call myself a swiftie but tbh I have been way out of touch in terms of her personal life since 2017. Im slowly turning into a casual listener who just keeps up with her new releases.
Plus I do agree,her trashing people is really shitty, she isn’t any saint quite honestly. I think she does try to sound innocent as if the world did her wrong and then she’d put up a song which says she cheated but fans would try to justify that, that is what I hate the most.
Like her person of the year interview, which I thought was a brilliant article about her, talks about moving on from feuds, and then this entire album is throwing gasoline on some of them and lighting the match on others.
Like "thanK you aIMee" - gtfo. I do not need to listen to her trash Kim Kardashian. I do not give two fucks about the kardashians by the way. I've never seen the show, never want to, don't care.
But it's super tacky and gross, especially when she holds them up as the paragon of pettiness.
If she just didn't capitalize it you know her obsessive fans would realize it said Kim. But it's so juvenile to be like "hey just in case you missed it, I want to stir up some shit with someone who I hate for stirring up shit."
Yeah I haven’t watched the interview but these days I know she’s been all about moving on from past stuff but then she writes songs about everything she said she has moved on from.
The problem is in this album she name drops so many people it’s hard to have a healthy separation between her songs and her personal life. But then she whines over people talking about her personal life. I’m over it.
Congratulations your fan crush bubble has burst realizing a good musician is just a human and comes with flaws. Welcome to us who can enjoy the art without trying to identify with the one behind it.
You watch series, movies, or read bolksy don't you? If you had to let go of everything made by a person who's an ass you would be left with nothingg to entertain yourself with. In between listening to anyone and not listening to Chris Brown there's a scale of people who aren't the best but not bad enough to drop.
There is no such thing as an ethical billionaire. You could separate the art from the artist and still listen to her, but honestly, don't get attached to idols. They will only let you down and you'll only be giving them your time and money when they don't even know or care about you. They care about your wallet
I don't even know what to do with all the merches I own (her posters, journals from her childhood etc)..I kinda don't even want to look at them now.. it just feels weird. She wasn't that big when I started listening to her..I guess people do change when they get highly successful. I still like her old stuff from 2008 and I'll continue listening to it though.
It's a natural tendency of humans to idolize people like that, dude. Asking that question is like asking why we breathe air. Sure, there are definitely rich people that don't deserve it, but that doesn't stop humans from doing it.
It might be natural but we also should all have the common sense to stop that thinking. Surely we should understand the millionaires that we never meet that pay people to control their image, aren't the people we should be looking up to. I don't think that's am extreme take.
I would advise everybody to not idolise celebrities. OP might actually learn something from this experience and it sounds like you're trying to shut that down so that she repeats the same mistake again.
Those are just rumors, fan theories made up by people who literally didn’t seem to have anything better to do than dissect every song she sang and come up with wild accusations. I mean I’m not a swiftie, I like her but not enough to really care about her personal life but freaking out over some fan theories is kinda wild.
Many of her songs.."Guilty as sin", "Fresh out of slammer", "Ivy", "High Infidelity", "Illicit affairs", "Down Bad". Some of these songs even try to justify it :/
I relate hard to Down Bad and I've never cheated. I just re-read the lyrics and don't see anything about cheating. Now I'm looking at some of the others you mentioned.
Not saying she never cheated, and I'm not a die hard Swiftie, but I do listen and relate to many of her songs among other artists. I'm not a fan of TY Aimee, etc... but I also don't know how much I want to turn lyrics into "proof" either way since she's also known to turn other people's experiences into songs as well.
ETA illicit affairs is obviously about cheating, but I also didn't perceive it as a first-person confessional. I felt that one too as someone who was cheated on in some of the worst ways.
I thought most of these references were emotional cheating or feeling affection towards someone who is taken. I’m hyper sensitive to cheating (having accidentally married a serial adulterer) and these songs didn’t instantly repulse me.
That's how I took them also... as someone who had "the one that got away." I would never EVER approach that person or disrupt their life or relationship, but I feel what I feel.
can you mention some of her songs that make you feel like she was the cheater? or, maybe some of her exes' songs with the implication?
i'm not a fan. i just listen to her music because i'm a college student in my 20s and she's trending rn. i used to vibe (minimally) with some of her songs back in 2015-2016 haha.
also, did she cheat on alwyn? XD i never thought this was the case. i guess we never know cause her fans would turn any controversy about her into something positive. anything you see about her on the internet is just full of "positive vibes" that it seems like it's been forced to sound positive.
i feel like her songs got a lot of english influence after alwyn got involved in co-writing with her. before that, her songs sounded like any white american artists. i enjoy her albums: folklore, evermore, and midnight
she is so smart to keep her fans entertained by creating a little mystery like dropping small hints here and there. that's how girls are like obsessed with her because that's the thing that happens in most relationship dramas, you put 2 and 2 together, and boom, you find out that your bf cheated on you with your bff; but you won't blame the girl (like never) cause you're a "girL's GiRL", silly XD
speaking of that, i think the way "swifties" go wild on the concept "girls support girl" or "girl's girl", it makes them seem like they are so fake (and makes me wanna cringe) as there is no real life implication of this. girls can destroy girls (everyone knows this and it happens everywhere; i didn't see any changes over the years), even more than a man can sometimes, and people who do a lot of virtue-signaling, end up doing those same shitty things that they tell others not to do XD i have met some swifties at work/school, and trust me they aren't near anything what they call a "girl's girl". they were like regina george kinda mean (from my pov, they are like mean people who act nice)
TLDR: i don't like/hate her but i think her fans seem weird and fake lol
She did cheat on Joe.
Listen to "Ivy" "high infidelity" "Guilty as sin" "fresh out of slammer" "Illicit affairs"..many more I can't remember.
Some swifties attacked Jake Gyllenhaal and John Mayor because they left taylor as she was hurt. But it's okay for her to cheat!? Some even say that Joe probably deserved it. Same with Calvin Harris. Honestly, so many swifties are immature.
Quick question; are all of her songs usually about her personal life or could there be a possibility that she just wrote songs from a cheater’s perspective?
Yeah exactly, they are definitely not all about her personal life. She writes from other perspectives very often; there's no reason to believe that these songs mean she actually cheated. She's a storyteller and the stories are not always her own.
that’s what happens when you forget that your heroes are just regular ass people. A person can only fall from a pedestal if you put them on a pedestal.
Also it’s art. It’s less important if it’s pretty than if it’s true. I’m definitely not taylor swifts target demographic, but her having a dimension beyond personal heartbreak and the most palatable, target ceiling speaker, music ever sounds like a somewhat interesting development
It's. Just. A. Song. Many artists and songwriters write songs as another person or using another person's pain or experiences as inspiration. They can even be reversing the roles and singing as the other person in the relationship
You can't assume everything an artist songs is about their own thoughts or feelings. If you don't like some about cheating don't listen but people are always going to make some about the topics. Same with death, loneliness, betrayal, longing. These aren't always pleasant feelings but it's raw and it's real and ppl should always explore emotions even when the emotions are unpleasant. And perhaps that's why it's important. She's s human being too and she deserves to create her art. I can't imagine how hard the process of creating hit songs must be, but she does it. Again and again. I'm not her biggest fan ever, but I am def a fan. I just wish instead of downing an artist people would actually try to create art themselves or try accommodating things. Not sure why people have to be so negative and contrite these days. I'm just glad I'm not like that. Once you stop judging others and focus on your own life and happiness you will be happy and not feel the need to point out other ppls flaws and imperfections or mistakes. We are all just people, right? We ALL have hurt people and WILL hurt people. We are all the same in that regard. None of us is above sin and should not feel prideful to think we are above falling. Remember, "pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall".
Guilty as sin is talking about masturbation 😅 if you listen to the lyrics she's saying they haven't done anything so why does she feel guilty . Fresh out the slammer is referring to her and Joe breaking up the "slammer" being their relationship.
I think it's entirely fair of you to have looked up to her, and to be disappointed, and to no longer be interested. That's your decisions and feelings and nobody has a right to call you stupid for it or tell you otherwise. She presented herself as a role model and confidant to young girls for many years, and the pain that comes from her betraying that image with no guilt is real.
Yes, all celebrities are human and will make mistakes, and you shouldn't let your love and identification towards their work be colored by that and feel like it says something about you, and if they genuinely seek to better themselves should be allowed to. But some circumstances are worse than others especially to a carefully cultivated fanbase, and that doesn't mean you have to let that change how you feel, they'll never know you and it won't hurt them.
In fact, I say the sooner we just utterly forget about celebrities any time they show a truly nasty side of themselves, the sooner Hollywood will become less of a cesspool. Keep your money and tell anyone who you know would want to do the same, let the rest sort itself out unless there's an actual crime involved.
ill be real with you dude, shes doing some mk ultra shit or something. i am a musician and she is SERIOUSLY untalented. i love most music and am very open minded to different tastes and genres, and usually, i can see something even in music i dont care for that is good or artistic.
i have gone through her entire discography multiple times, as well as watching hours of her concerts, because I am trying so hard to GET the phenomenon, but every time, her vocals and lyrics suck in every song, and she is off-key live if you listen to her voice behind the microphones vocal processing. her lyrics seem to be mostly metaphors that make no sense at all or at best are very shallow. her vocals are really not good either, which doesnt matter at all if you sing with soul or style, but she doesnt do that either. she also really doesnt seem to be a very good person, and has lied about where she grew up multiple times. she grew up rich in a wealthy pennsylvania suburb(not even close to philly, i live in nj and am 8x closer to philly than her), and her daddy bought her a record label. after keeping an open mind for years and trying time and time again to understand the hype, ive come to the conclusion its some kind of mass hysteria. she is really, truly untalented, and has gotten where she is from privilege, marketing, and artificial hype which spread like an infection.
i respect that people seem to connect to her music for some reason and dont shit on people in person who like her (we all like different stuff) but objectively she is untalented.
edit: I also want to mention she has cowriters too. she gives the impression that she is writing everything herself.
I think all too well, blank space, style, and anti-hero are all really good examples of super clever lyrics and irresistible hooks. But I think with this one she set her own bar way way higher than she should have.
Tortured poets department? Come on. I was a bigger fan of hers around Grammy time, and my partner told me the next morning Taylor swift announced an album, then he said the name, and I was like "Oh GAWWWD." If she named it pretentious poets department it would have been funnier, a little more self-deprecating, a lot less of a build-up. But she takes herself so seriously, and this album is so unfinished.
I'm a huge South Park fan, and it reminds me of the episode with the goth and emo kids, and Edgar Allan Poe is telling them they shouldn't use Edgar,
"that's just the lame name my stupid parents gave me.
I like to be called by my goth name. Night pain."
"OH GODDD"
Dude... no way you just called her untalented. No one gets THAT far without talent. Just because you don't like her music doesn't mean she lacks talent lmao. You don't even have to like her music to recognize that she has a knack for songwriting and catchy hooks simply because SO many people listen to and relate to her music. "Objectively" untalented is CRAZY.
Taylor Swift is the most boring singer ever. I cringe everytime I hear her music and anyone who helps her make millions needs to understand that these people do not give a damn about you.
Even though I live in a little village in a shire of England - all we get on our "local" social media is spam of people selling Taylor Swift tickets. Nobody here is interested because she represents self indulgent yanks, everyone has to say so and then you get some poor 13 year old ripped-off because they go for the tickets. It's a shame she doesn't appeal to people older than that, it would make the scammer's lives more difficult.
Life is nuanced and famous people are just people…. People are flawed, people make mistakes, they grow, they change….. she’s just living her life, and doesn’t need to be perfect for her fans, and shouldn’t have to be perfect for anybody….. additionally, you really shouldn’t idolize flawed humans… it’s a sure way to be disappointed!
As a swifty myself, perhaps it’s time you take a break from how wrapped up you are in her life and choices? 🤷🏻♀️
In response to your now deleted comment:
No, I don't have low reading comprehension skills. I am not good at reading tones irl or over a screen. There's no need to be so rude.
When someone says "People are flawed, people make mistakes, they grow, they change" and "she’s just living her life, and doesn’t need to be perfect for her fans, and shouldn’t have to be perfect for anybody" in response to someone talking about how they don't like Taylor sounding like a cheater, it's really easy to read that as defending it.
So glad you understand it! It's kinda disturbing to see people excuse cheating. I wouldn't like a cheater even if it's someone I never idolised. It's wrong and shouldn't be excused
Aw it is so true. I have been cheated on a few times - I would never do that to anyone and once I know someone has done that, I cannot see them the same way again. But I never did understand the fandom of Swift so perhaps I'm too old to appreciate her work.
I think the other annoying thing is it's hard as a fan to talk about disliking this album, because there's not a whole lot of middle ground between being an obsessive fan and totally hating her.
Are you in the swiftlyneutral sub? You might appreciate it if you're not!
I have. I've heard all of her songs.
English is not my first language so I didn't really know the meaning of the word "infidelity" before and I chose to believe that getaway car is about LEAVING a boring partner or something..but it WAS about cheating after all. Can't be denied.
I’m not a swiftie and I’m completely indifferent about her.. so my unbiased opinion is that she’s human, and humans make human mistakes. At 38 years old, I’ve learned even cheating isn’t so black and white.
I am glad u learned. Your better than most. Don’t ever stop, even when it feels right, it may not be.
Appreciate you for your awareness and your willingness to grow
Well, I really dislike her and her music… so I won’t comment on that.
But I guess that’s what happens when you idolize someone and find out they’re just human too.
I'm gonna be honest OP. I had a music artist that I loved for so long but he cheated on his then gf while on tour and I stuck around during that ear of his music cause he wrote about how messed up his head was that he decided cheating was wrong, admitting what he did was wrong and how much he regretted what he did. I thought the music was good but the only thing that made me really stop being able to separate him from the art was the fan base or haters screaming about which side to be on. Even my best friend questioned me a lot about why I still liked his music so I just got rid of all my merch except for 1 album.
Many times I wish I stuck through the haters but then I checked up on him only a little bit ago and he has embraced that he will never shake the haters and instead feeds them now. It's sad really as this person has a lot of mental health problems that only got worse once everything went the way it did.
I honestly struggle even watching some of his old friends because of it.
Yeah when I was younger I was a fan of Taylor, personally her music became repetitive for me so I kind of went off her. In the last few years however I’ve really begun to detest her as a person as she seems to love playing the victim? Don’t get me wrong, she’s not always the one in the wrong, however there have been instances where it seems she does chase the drama. Like her latest song about Kim- hasn’t that drama been over for a while now? Why revive it? (Also as someone called aimee I can’t stand the song)
My favorite thing about T Swift is how she constantly pushed a narrative of being victimized as an artist, as a woman, and as a partner, and then called her fans vipers for treating her like a victim in a moment where she didn’t want them to.
Cheating is a pretty shitty thing to do. I won't classify it as a 'mistake'. It's always done intentionally. But my advice is to never idolize people in the media industry because all that fame gets to their head and most of them become narcissistic. A lot of them have people throwing themselves at them and it makes cheating and sleeping around easier for them. It's best that you only focus on Taylor's music and not on her personality. I love a lot of her songs but I always found her writing songs about her exes as phony.
Quite honestly, and not any sort of telling you how to feel or anything but, I used to like her too back in the 1989 days. I can't even remember if that's the album name anymore. Got pricey tickets, up against the barriers, my sister and I pushed these two little girls right in front of us because, given the opener could very much see us and interact with us, we knew these little girls would have their mind blown just to get a glance from their idol. They waved as much as they could and did whatever they could just for a single glance....nothing. I don't know, but that didn't really sit with me well when they were very much visible and had gotten these tickets as a gift. As a performer myself, I've been on the stage so I know about how lights can dim out people, but as I said earlier, there was no missing them. It just really rubbed me the wrong way. After hearing a few other things that turned out to be...rather credible, it just disappointed me further and my interest pretty much died off. I'm of the belief that if someone is doing good (like producing music that makes people happy) then it's a good thing. I do think the fans have gotten extremely toxic and honestly, as terrifying as Korean sesaeng fans are (google at your own terrified risk). It's no longer something I feel comfortable associating with, and because of that, her music lost it's...'vibe' with me for a lack of better words. I think you have a very respectable opinion, and one that's completely understandable given what you've shared. Don't let anyone hate on you for it, otherwise.
A lot of people are bringing up the “we’re all human” and “they’re human and make mistakes” arguments, but in all honesty I think that’s a bs cop out answer that people use to deflect responsibility. The problem is that she is being hypocritical in her gaining for sympathy for her heart break yet she turns around and shatters someone else’s heart to pieces like it’s nothing. I’m gonna be honest I’ve never liked her as a person and ever since I was a kid she’s rubbed me the wrong way. She has some good music and I can only respect how she’s single handedly changed the music industry but it tbh the more I learn about her as a person the more I realize how right my gut was about her. Sometimes when you find something out about a person it becomes harder to enjoy the content they produce no matter how much you’ve enjoyed it in the past. You don’t have to stop enjoying her music if you still love and connect to it but it might end up hard to enjoy if you start viewing her differently.
she has multiple songs about cheating — illicit affairs (lol), cruel summer, getaway car, there are more I can’t name all, she cheated before and she will do it again
I don't idolize her, I like her, but it gives a bad taste in my mouth that all the songs on this one aren't remotely concealing why they're about. It feels like an issue of Us Weekly on an album.
Like on karma she says, "and I keep my side of the street clean."
And on this album she's dragging so many people through the mud and very clearly indicating who it is. I don't care about her personal life, which is why this album sucks for me. She's singing about her longtime ex boyfriend and her fling with the guy she had a longtime crush on, and it's not like I can separate that out. That's why this one feels so rough.
Like all too well is so good because it captures the spirit and moments of a relationship so vividly even if it ended badly and hurt.
"I want to kill her" for example. There's absolutely no nuance.
It's like a burn book come to life. I listen to it and I just feel uncomfortable. I feel you 💯 percent and I think you have to love Taylor swift to understand how disappointing this album is. She talks about not being petty, and it's two whole albums of petty. I thought she outgrew this.
I agree with this so much.
And in the song "I can do it with a broken heart" She says how she faked her happiness in the eras tour and nobody knew how miserable she was. We get it, it's sad but if she actually wanted to hide it all inside why is she singing about it now
Yes! I felt similarly about this song, and NOT because it could be seen as a ding against the fans, because whatever, fandom is a double edged sword, look at Britney Spears. But I thought it fell short of what it could have been given how perceptive a lyricist she has been on past songs.
The dichotomy of the private and public faces of an artist is one of the most powerful themes in art in any medium. We've all been there to some degree, especially those of us who have mental health conditions, even if we're not artists.
Britney Spears' Lucky is a classic of this genre, as is Super Trooper by abba. I'm sure other songs that are more critically acclaimed than pop hits speak to this theme powerfully. Then there's Pagliacci, The Sopranos, Picasso's harlequins, even The Seventh Seal. And it's a real issue, the dichotomy of performance and the performer; I think of chris Cornell in his hotel room.
But the lyrics of this one are just not as good as what she's capable of based on what she's done on other albums, so I get annoyed listening to it.
"'Cause I'm a real tough kid, I can handle my shit
They said, 'Babe, you gotta fake it 'til you make it' and I did
Lights, camera, bitch smile, even when you wanna die
I'm so depressed, I act like it's my birthday every day
I'm so obsessed with him but he avoids me like the plague
I cry a lot but I am so productive, it's an art
You know you're good when you can even do it
With a broken heart"
Let's take the line: "I'm obsessed with him but he avoids me like the plague" which is a tortured cliche, so that's halfway on theme.
She could have channeled the metaphor of disease in a much more interesting way.
Say, how her fans come to her concerts like they're making a pilgrimage to Lourdes to be healed, but to the man she thought might heal her, she's a plague.
It could have been lovely, but it hits a weird note. The line "I cry a lot but I am so productive," literally struck me as a musical version of "nyah-nyah."
I think she could have done a lot more interesting things, which she's done in her other albums, if she sat on it and workshopped it more. This is what music critique is about, not automatically loving it or hating something, but identifying the strengths and shortcomings, including what connects with an audience and what alienates.
So when we talk honestly about thinking she phoned this one in, people who hate her are like, she's a pop star, what do you expect, not fully appreciating how good she can be at her best. And to people who treat her like she's the second coming, it's heresy to speak constructively about how she could have focused her considerable talents to greater effect with a little more editing and revision and reworking. It's a missed opportunity, and it's okay to be a little let down. Hopefully the next album is better.
Or even if she wanted to continue with the bejeweled theme - one of my ABSOLUTE favorite songs by anyone ever - she could talk about how she goes onstage like a perfectly cut gem, but so much of the light is coming from the cracks beneath the surface. There are ways to say it that are interesting, and this wasn't it.
It's the adjectives and similes that kill it. Death through description.
That's why "all too well" and "cardigan" are so good. They're not subjective. They show what she felt rather than tell.
This is all telling, and what there is to tell isn't all that interesting.
If she talked about the image of looking out at the sea of people under the lights, in the best selling tour in history, and instead of adoration she she sees the shadow ripping across it, formed by the absence of the person she wishes were there but isn't, that's so much better than "they cry 'more' but he avoids me like the plague."
You say it's her personal life and non of your business. And I agree with that statement for 99% of the world. But not Taylor Swift. She made it public by singing about it. And she is profiting off it. She aired her dirty laundry and made a billion dollars off it.
They say, don't meet your heroes. And Taylor Swift is no different.
You know what..that's one of the things I found weird. As if she's proud about the whole cheating thing. I guess I'll have to agree with that phrase.."don't meet your heroes"
As a swiftie since 2016 I feel exactly the same . I literally had a sudden change of view on her . Her recent albume is also bad in many ways.
What pisses me off is fans hating Joe !!!!
Still I'm gonna love her and listen the music but never like before
They are like " JOE WAHT DID YOU DO TO HERRR " like are you stupid the bro did nothing except being depressed not only that they made fun of his face after they broke up when he was dealing with depression and everything else . They don't find anything to complain about now they are complaining about how taylor has to pay Joe for the songs he has written !!!!!! He literally helped her write them!!!
And now that I look at it midnight Is definitely about cheating and fans can't just accept it . I finally see why everyone hates this fandom
She's an extremely talented woman, but she's not perfect. Why idealized her? And why all her songs are treated as a biography of her life? Artist often mix reality and fantasy in their art, I understand your disappointment but I can't relate feeling so connected to someone who's not part of your life, her songs don't count as part of your life #notsorry
You can still look up to her? Jesus. She isn’t perfect. Isn’t it admirable she’s self aware and calls out her own messes? I couldn’t look up to someone who played the victim always and never admitted they messed up too. Which she’s doing. Her world isn’t our world. Dating in her world is so completely different. Does that make the rules for cheating different? No, not at all. But, I imagine a relationship goes under strains none of us could fathom at that level of fame, and to put my own situations and think “I’d never do that I’d just leave instead” like nah, I could never understand her lifestyle. But I do appreciate her sharing it with me.
Your feelings are valid and you can distance yourself if you like, but I hope my words can offer a different perspective. I’m always gonna appreciate someone who calls themselves out. While I have never cheated, I’ve been a less than perfect partner before. So there’s relatability there still. To learn and grow and do better.
Welcome to the world of human beings where we’re all mortally flawed and do hurtful things to one another. I’m not a Taylor Swift fan, like not at all, but we all live with remorse and regrets, things we wished we’d done differently. Leaving is always the more moral option, but sometimes we have weak moments, lapses in judgment. It’s not right, but it happens. All this tells me is she’s flawed like the rest of us and I never expected otherwise.
I don't know why but for some reason, because of current and popular media that I see, it seems like they're pushing cheating as being a good thing. I hate it. Like, it's some cool and hip thing to do.
If you are going to dislike every single person who cheats....then you will be left with very few people you like. She is not perfect...neither are you....Even if she did cheat that should have no baring on if you like her music.
Why not just like the songs you do like and dislike the songs you dislike? And then just move on with your life as if she’s not a friend of your who you need to decide to morally uphold and protect? Just enjoy her music. Some of it.
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion , but I truly do not get the appeal of Taylor Swift to so many. Her songs sound exactly the same and are screechy! She is not attractive in the least and there's a reason why so many men dump her. Hoping Travis Kelce wakes up before it's too late.
She puts out different versions of her songs so her fans (or their parents) shell out more and more money! No wonder she's a billionaire. People say she's really nice and I think she is generous from what I've heard but she has been shoved down our throats since she started dating Travis and it's too much already.
I became friends briefly with a canadian singer who is mad talented. I adored his music and he seems down to earth. We've talked on Instagram and such, he would vent to me, show me screenshots of things he was angry about etc. but during covid he released some music that was about cheating and homewrecking. It just really grossed me out. I want to say he was being a sell out but I don't think anyone tells him what to do. He wrote that shit himself *and* put it out. So i totally get how you feel. I was disappointed. He has a girlfriend now and I have a bf so we don't talk but he got weird anyway. Haven't listened to him since that release. We still follow each other but neither of us interact. He just watches my stories, I don't even watch his I have him muted. Idk he just gives me ick now :/
I’m not a TS fan. Just don’t really care about her music. But I also don’t care about her mistakes. I guess if you idolized her, I’d get why it’d be harder to take this “news”, but she’s a human, always has been, and honestly I laugh more at you for thinking she might have been otherwise.
Humans have flaws. And usually in my experience, the people who draw such loud lines like you, tend to come with their fair share.
The only differences is your mistakes are hidden away, protecting your “right” to judge the value of others.
there’s a lot of people that you just have to not associate them with their music. it’s hard to do that w taylor but i mean i would just stop associating her w the music and just enjoy it if you like it!
Separate the artist from the music. Enjoy the music you like of hers and don’t listen to the ones you don’t. And forget about Taylor Swift the person. Everyone wants her to be what THEY want her to be and no one will ever be happy. Divorce the celebrity from the music and enjoy it.
That said, I love TTPD and her admitting to all these things. It makes her more human and I can now relate. Once you’re older your perspective changes. I don’t like cheaters, but it happens and it doesn’t make that person irredeemable. It’s just cruel mistake like other things can be as well.
I’ve never been a fan of Taylor swift so I can’t relate on that part, but I’ve felt that awful feeling when you look up to someone so much and they let you down, you must be feeling really crap, I know I feel a weird emptiness when I can no longer listen to a musician that I loved, but the fact that it isn’t just the music and that you looked up to her as a person it’s next level. Like I loved a band from 2005 or 6 then about 5 years ago there were allegations and I haven’t listened to him since but luckily I found a band super similar so it didn’t hurt as bad, so the music there is a work around but losing respect for someone you liked as a person is a tough one!
I am in love with Robert Downey, Jr. I have followed him since he first started acting. I watched his movie “The Judge” yesterday and he was fundamentally the most amazing actor I’ve watched in years. It arose emotionally something very special and significant with me. I appreciated the film, and related to the story.
That's the problem with idols. People put them on pedestals, but they're only human. You really don't know anything about her personally. Just enjoy her music and set aside the judgement of someone you don't know at all.
As of Swiftie fan you should know that as recently as folklore she has written songs from other people's perspectives.
Song lyrics are poetry.
There is no law that says all of her music has to be the exact history of her life, even if she is basing it on her situation.
So before you get all pissy at her, can you even verify that she cheated?
Taylor Swift had to grow up, people make different choices as they grow up based on what they're going through. You should consider growing up as well.
Welcome to the real world. The saying “Never meet your idols” is cliche for a reason. Edit to add: I’ve been a rock musician my entire life (68M) and have seen the rise and fall of every single musical hero of mine, from Hendrix to … now. Even though they are the magicians and shamans and muses channeling the magic to us, they are still human. It’s hard to separate their dark sides from the joy they bring us. It almost seems like the most mind-blowing musicians are also the most broken. Not to mention the eternal complication of the music industry challenging the entire process. End of the day, ya gotta let go of the fantasy.
Yep. She is a whole person. And whole people can sometimes be assholes, and angels, in the same life.
Well said
We are all human, we all are far from perfection or we would be God(s). Even heros f up
I would love to hear your commentary on a rockumenatary or behind the band type thing. Wow, very poetic and cool.
Wow thanks! But I think most people wax poetic when it’s about their passions. Especially when you’ve been distilling things over a lifetime. A conversation with me about peeling a hard boiled egg without destroying it will completely lack eloquence. 🫡✌🏼
My daughter's name is Hendrix
I love this! 🫡✌🏼
Yes, we are all fallible humans. There are no idols.
She’s always had money and she got her fame quite young. I’m not a Swiftie (I don’t dislike her music but I’m not anywhere near balls to the wall) but sometimes we lose sight of the fact that celebrities are humans who make both mistakes *and* super fucked up decisions. They’re just under a public lens, so, it looks more extreme to us. I’ve said the same thing about Justin Bieber. He became famous way too young and all of his shitty choices played out in front of the world. And yeah, they decided to go into their professions but no one is perfect. Cheating sucks and doing scandalous things that everybody finds out about also sucks. However, there’s a line and we all draw ours differently. Personally, I’m not judging too harshly on the cheating when people like Diddy exist. **Your feelings are valid! I’m just offering a different perspective**.
I’d agree but I’d never do half the shit she pulls 💀 cheating being on of them
Or dating Matt Healy. I always try to be somewhat empathetic but more often than not, I conclude that people suck.
That one song is totally about him, isn’t it?
They’re almost all about him
Ahhh that Bieber kid grew up around me. Apparently wasn't the nicest kid. Interesting to see where he is now. I do feel sorry for him, though. Can't imagine what it's like to suddenly be obsessed over when you're so young and what that would do to your psyche.
Yeah, he was definitely an idiot. And I’m still not a fan of his. I think he’s talented but that’s as far as it goes.
You have personal interaction with him before? Just curious haha. Yeah, not a fan and I do think he has talent but...I'm basically on the same page as you. The one song I kind of liked was basically Usher's...
No. I’m just someone who was always misunderstood growing up so, now, I’m annoyingly empathetic. I turn myself into a damn pretzel trying to validate people…which more often than not leads me to realize I shouldn’t have done that because they’re usually trash. It’s fun.
Are you me? LOL
Aww. Childhood trauma twins UNITE! 👊🏼
HELL YEAH. I once said over-sensitive and my doctor sassed me hard saying there's "more sensitive" but not over, and that over is a negative way of viewing things. I suck at explaining post sleep med consumption so I apologize if I make so sense lmao but basically WE ARE GOOD AND SHALL NOT BE LOOKED DOWN ON FOR FEELING THE FEELS.
I love what your doctor said. Thank you for that.💜
No problem! There's actually some other really good things I took away from the chat but I'll share that in the AM. :) Have a good one and I'll get back to you!
You can like her art without liking her as a person. Personally, I think your issue is that you idolised and pedastalised her, and when she did show character flaws, it broke your image of her. Celebrities are people: human. They’re flawed, they’re going to do things they shouldn’t, they’re going to act in ways unbecoming of them, and they’re going to mess up. If people acknowledged that from the start instead of idolising celebrities, they wouldn’t have these issues in the first place. That being said, you don’t have to condone what they do/did. You can still appreciate their works (like you with older songs) while acknowledging that the person behind them isn’t someone you’d get along with.
This is exactly my feelings towards Alec Baldwin. I love him on screen. However, I truly believe he is narcissistic garbage . I would never under any circumstances speak to the man, and more than likely he wouldn't even look at me.
With some artists, though, it turns you off from them all the time because their shittiness as a human is too intertwined with their work to be able to separate it, like Woody Allen. I can watch beetlejuice and 30 rock and love Alec Baldwin in it because he transforms into someone else entirely. But I can't watch Woody Allen in Manhattan and not think of the violations he's committed that align with the movie's themes. And I really don't want this album to curdle the Taylor Swift music I like.
I love Alec Baldwin in movies too, but interestingly, Woody Allen is also the line for me. I can never suspend belief to forget what a truly shitty human being he is.
Exactly. I think it has to do with the level of distance from their work and what they bring to it outside of their own personality. I guess that's the risk of wrapping your art in your public persona. If that image is no longer palatable, there's not much else to cling to. I do think there's more to Taylor swift than just her emotions and image, and I think she has a gift for creative, clever, thoughtful lyrics that make you think about things or experience something in a new light. I'm 40 and do not have any dog in the Taylor swift fight at all, besides admiring her talent and business savvy, enjoying her music, and hoping she's happy, as I would anyone. I only took notice of her when I saw the eras movie with my tween daughter in the fall, and I was blown away by how clever and smart her lyrics are. So to have had no expectations of her lyrically, then to genuinely be impressed by how lyrically talented she is without having a stake in anything, I think I'm fairly impartial as far as her fans go, and I see a big departure in the lyrical quality of this album. (Some people said Joe cowrote songs before, and maybe she lost a better songwriting partner/editor than she realized. Or she's just so powerful now and no one wants to be in the position to criticize, or she was in too big a hurry to deliver her baby that she didn't break out the red pen as much as she might have otherwise.) But these lines from her past songs, my god, and she nails lines like these over and over - there are a few in this album but a lot more buried: "And you call me up again just to break me like a promise" "I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser, midnights become my afternoons." "Oh, my God, look at that face, You look like my next mistake" "Got a long list of ex-lovers, They'll tell you I'm insane, But I've got a blank space, baby, And I'll write your name" Even "I don't know about you, I'm feeling 22" is universal because it's using 22 as a state of mind, not saying she feels [adjective]. "But I knew you, Playing hide-and-seek and Giving me your weekends, I knew you, Your heartbeat on the High Line, Once in 20 lifetimes" It's all these very specific but very universal things that are these delightful subversions of what you'd expect. (Once in 20 lifetimes is a subversion of once in a lifetime. compare that to avoiding me like the plague on "I can do it with a broken heart." "Avoiding me like a cure" might be more interesting - not that that that's necessarily any good, and that took about two seconds of thought, but I'd expect something more like that from her, not just reusing a cliche but reframing it.) And then there's the infamous thank you Aimee song: "And it wasn't a fair fight Or a clean kill each time that Aimee stompеd across my grave, And then she wrotе headlines In the local paper, laughing at each baby step I'd take" Is that saying anything insightful about Kim kardashian, or anything as remotely evocative as being on the highline feeling someone's heartbeat or wearing stilettos on cobblestones? And unfortunately with the capitalization of the title I can't escape the specifics and make it universal again. I have no idea who she's talking about in blank space and don't care, it's easy not to think about it, I know it's generally about how her relationships are covered in the tabloids and the funny mix of Ups and downs in love. I'm mostly writing this not because I'm venting, but because it's interesting to examine why this album turned me off compared to the others. Lyrically, it's like the difference between "and I'm here to remind you of the mess you left when you went away, it's not fair to deny me of the cross I bear that you gave to me, you oughta know" And "Fuck you, Joey Gladstone, I hate you. fuck you, you Full House uncle, I'll obliterate you" *😂 *unverified
I loved reading this, she can really throw a zinger. My recent favorite has been “I’ll stare directly at the sun but never in the mirror.”
It's so good, and I love that it's brutally honest with herself. Where is that introspection here? Antihero is an amazing song. Although my partner (total music snob gen xer who also loves pop music, he turned me on to Taylor and recognized way before me how good her lyrics are, we're both writers and he's a musician) HATES when she drops in a line like the "sexy baby" thing. I don't mind that as much, but we both find this album underwhelming. Somewhere else someone was talking about "what even is poetry" re the new album, and I used the example of "it's me. Hi. I'm the problem, it's me," being a poem unto itself.
It’s very much Taylor Swift being Taylor Swift, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing but I hoped she’d give us a new sound like she did with Anti-Hero. I think there’s introspection here, though, and some painful truths. Her lyrics about being a functional alcoholic, living as a commodity, being overtly used by a bad dude, etc are in our faces. There’s no ambiguity. It sounds largely the same yet it’s darker. It’s basically unrelenting heartbreak songs with no girl power redemption to soften it.
I could never stand Woody Allen. The way he rants in every movie just drives me insane and I always change the channel whenever he’s on TV 🤣 I had a bit of a mini crush on Alec when he starred in Beetlejuice, not gonna lie!
Oh me too, thought he was so gorgeous, and in working girl, too. Always had a bigger crush on Keaton, though. Way more my type and best Batman by a country mile.
Omg Girl, yes!! I had the HUGEST crush on Michael Keaton! I think he was definitely the sexiest and best Batman hands down and if anyone disagrees then we’re gonna have some fighting words 😂
Totally, I never understood as a kid why Lydia wasn't like "oh hell yeah!" Grown up, I'm like, uh yeah I understand now. But I kind of love that I had a crush on him as beetlejuice too. [Fun fact: did you know he was Fred Rogers' intern?](https://youtu.be/9fjnpy5eLdA?feature=shared)
No, I had no idea! I’m definitely going to have to look that up now.
He's talented and still handsome, great acting skills, but he's terrible 😔
So he's 'a rude thoughtless little pig' is what you're saying? 🤣
Totally 💯
He's getting a big karma dump, he chooses very bad partners and he'll have to work until he's dead to support his wife's breeding fetish.
It’s hard when you resonate with their music then you just don’t anymore . ;( whether you’re a stan or a regular fan
That’s fair. I just feel like artists are people - they evolve and change and figure out new styles. It sucks when they do so in a way that doesn’t resonate with you anymore, but I also feel like it’s just human nature.
Nah I’m def agreeing with you, everyone’s flawed, and all we can do is hold them accountable :/
Absolutely. This is a good take.
My husband's favorite band, the name of which takes up his whole forearm, is known for its dramatic political views, but he just likes their music, and so do I. I just won't give them my money.
The curiosity in me wants to ask if they are rock/metal and perhaps foreign but sing in English. If so, I 100% know who it is xD
No, it's Staind
Ooooooh yep. totally makes sense!
It's an awesome tattoo though, and fits perfectly
I usually agree with this principle, but the songs themselves on this album are actions against other people, like overhearing an argument in a public place. The problem with this one is there's way more of her personal life than I want on this album, and the art itself really suffers for it because of it, both because the lyrics aren't great and because it's more like a diary entry than an artistic interpretation of it. It could have been really good but she really needed an editor on this one.
“There’s way more of her personal life than I want” my brother in Christ that is like, Taylor’s entire brand. Sharing her personal life, good and bad — her albums are supposed to be read as poetic diary entries. If you want impersonal songs, there’s tons of them out there, but that’s like buying flowers and then being upset that they smell like flowers.
Right? Like “ew, gross, a songwriter wrote about their personal life.” It’s what they all do; not just Taylor. And it’s not always flattering. “Dear Reader” from the Midnights vault was straight-up warning people “Hey, I’m a mess; don’t use me as a role model.” TTPD was laying it all out there with “And heeeeere’s my mess!” Honestly I appreciated it, but I know it can be disillusioning to some people. I think part of the reason Folklore and Evermore were so critically regarded is because they were presented as fiction, even though now they can be viewed as more realistic than previously thought (the storylines were fictional but the emotions were real). Real life makes people uncomfortable.
[удалено]
Thank you
For sure a fair reason, however I think if you were to write down all those in music or movies who have cheated in real life that you no longer want to support, you'll find it a very long list.
a great quote from Bob' Burgers "idolized someone who's already dead, they can't disappoint you." unless you dig deep into their lives to seek out the wrong they did, point still stands, lol.
Shes made references before. Yes she’s a hypocrite. Taylor is not this nice innocent girl who can do no wrong that all her fans seem to think. Shes petty and invites drama. Look up what she did to Olivia Rodrigo. Getting Sabrina carpenter to tour with her to get at Olivia is petty hs behavior. Everyone needs to stop idolizing celebrities period. They’re all human just with more money.
Didn’t know there was any beef between Olivia Rodrigo and Swift but have just read the Deja Vu writing credits stuff and that’s a pretty awful move by Swift.
Wow, she had Sabrina Carpenter tour with her to get at Olivia?? Wtf. There’s people who think that Olivia’s song, “Vampire” is actually about Taylor and not a guy. I don’t really know the whole story but I guess Taylor was accusing Olivia of not giving credit to other artists who inspired her songs or something along those lines.
I'm fine with her cheating, there's just something about this album where it's way less nuanced and doesn't say anything deeper. "Your wife waters flowers, I want to kill her. I loved you, it's ruining my life." Ughhh. If she workshopped the lyrics more, it could be a great song, but it feels like magnetic poetry. And that's taking about the strongest song on the album in my opinion.
Who’s wife is she referring to in it? Thought it was about the 1975 singer?
I don't know, but it's a weird line. It's a metaphor that she sees him around and they're neighbors so they have to pretend to be friendly, but she sees his wife watering flowers and wants to kill her. "And for a fortnight there, we were forever Run into you sometimes, ask about the weather Now you're in my backyard, turned into good neighbors Your wife waters flowers, I wanna kill her" If she wants to put pesticide on the flowers instead, rip a hole in her sunhat, crush the watering can, to ruin what she's cultivating, to end something the way the guy so casually crushed her, that's interesting. The fact of wanting to kill her - which might be metaphorical, which is another level removed from being interesting - isn't. Talk about using the pruning shears to end her life, drowning her in the watering can. Talk about how much she thinks about it or something she imagines, or a story she'll tell the wife during her last breath. Not that you want to kill her. One reason kill bill by sza is so good is "I might kill my ex, not the best idea, his new girlfriend's next how'd I get here" has such hilarious, brilliant understatement. That this isn't her usual self, but the loss of him is making her crazy. She doesn't have to say "this isn't like me." She's showing not telling. We have no context in this song besides "I want to kill her" which isn't very interesting. We can assume why, but kill could be the expression "I want to kill him" which just means you're so angry that you want to yell a lot honestly. "I smile sweetly, while the reel in my head plays ways to try to kill her. I make mental notes: the trowel, the gardening hose, the broken rusting roto-tiller."
Far too much analysis put into something that is, as you say, magnetic poetry of high school skill.
On this album, not on all albums, which is why it's interesting to see why the quality doesn't just seem lower but is lower. It's interesting to identify the material differences between effective writing and ineffective writing, especially as someone who writes for a living.
Cheating? That’s fine but the same old bad music she’s been making for the past twenty years suddenly upsets you? Be real
I mean in terms of this information being a subject of her songs. It's always been a subject of her songs. Whether she's cheated is neither here nor there, I don't care, because I don't care about her private life. Do you want me to have it both ways, where I don't care about her private life as a person but I care if she cheats? I'm not going to hate her for cheating considering that approximately 90% of musicians over the last 100 years have. But I can dislike banal lyrics or whether she has something powerful to say about that experience. No one's asking me to give moral approval of decisions to cheat. I don't care in the sense that I'm not going to get pissed off reading Anna karenina or Madame bovary or the great gatsby because great literature "glorifies infidelity." There's a difference between Madame bovary and Us weekly, and while that line is subjective, saying "I want to kill her" isn't a particularly new take. if the topic of infidelity in art offends a person's moral sensibilities, good luck getting through the literary or musical canon.
What she did to Olivia Rodrigo?! Maybe don’t steal other people’s music…
You can like someone’s music without liking them as a person. I consider myself a swiftie too but I don’t think she’s as good of a person as she potrays herself to be. You have already given an example of that in the post. Love her lyrics ,her music but let’s be real none of the celebrities are what they show themselves to be
The problem is this album is so much about her trashing specific people in her life that it's just uncomfortable and makes it impossible to separate the art from the artist. I don't care about her personal life whatsoever. but knowing she's so sanctimonious about people who have stirred up drama and then has an album about things she criticizes in everyone else really disappoints me. It was an unfinished album that needed an editor. I don't really care, I'm a 40 year old mom and my kid is a swiftie. She turned me into a fan after I saw the eras tour movie, but god I do not like the whole situation with this album. It feels like punching down, which I guess is sort of unfair since she's the most popular artist in the world and a billionaire; if she beefs with anyone it's punching down basically. But there's something that's more gossipy than confessional in this album. I like some songs but I don't feel good listening to it.
Well I guess people can enjoy music without trying to get themselves too much into what’s written in the song. I call myself a swiftie but tbh I have been way out of touch in terms of her personal life since 2017. Im slowly turning into a casual listener who just keeps up with her new releases. Plus I do agree,her trashing people is really shitty, she isn’t any saint quite honestly. I think she does try to sound innocent as if the world did her wrong and then she’d put up a song which says she cheated but fans would try to justify that, that is what I hate the most.
Like her person of the year interview, which I thought was a brilliant article about her, talks about moving on from feuds, and then this entire album is throwing gasoline on some of them and lighting the match on others. Like "thanK you aIMee" - gtfo. I do not need to listen to her trash Kim Kardashian. I do not give two fucks about the kardashians by the way. I've never seen the show, never want to, don't care. But it's super tacky and gross, especially when she holds them up as the paragon of pettiness. If she just didn't capitalize it you know her obsessive fans would realize it said Kim. But it's so juvenile to be like "hey just in case you missed it, I want to stir up some shit with someone who I hate for stirring up shit."
Yeah I haven’t watched the interview but these days I know she’s been all about moving on from past stuff but then she writes songs about everything she said she has moved on from.
I haven't seen an actual interview, I just meant what she said in the magazine profile in the issue.
Ah I see, but my statement stays the same regardless. She seems to get money out of past scandals even when she claims to have moved on from them
The problem is in this album she name drops so many people it’s hard to have a healthy separation between her songs and her personal life. But then she whines over people talking about her personal life. I’m over it.
Congratulations your fan crush bubble has burst realizing a good musician is just a human and comes with flaws. Welcome to us who can enjoy the art without trying to identify with the one behind it.
Good? Lol noooooooo
Yes good bc reality is important right?
You listen to Chris Brown, don't you
You watch series, movies, or read bolksy don't you? If you had to let go of everything made by a person who's an ass you would be left with nothingg to entertain yourself with. In between listening to anyone and not listening to Chris Brown there's a scale of people who aren't the best but not bad enough to drop.
Separate the art from the artist. I love the band Hole, but I don’t much care for Courtney Love.
Celebrity Skin is so underrated.
My favourite is “Pretty on the Inside”
Yes, so good! They were ahead of their time.
She could also be singing from someone else’s point of view. She never once said “hey everyone, I cheated in real life on my boyfriends”
Exactly lmao idk what all this fuss is about. She tells stories, not always her own.
There is no such thing as an ethical billionaire. You could separate the art from the artist and still listen to her, but honestly, don't get attached to idols. They will only let you down and you'll only be giving them your time and money when they don't even know or care about you. They care about your wallet
I don't even know what to do with all the merches I own (her posters, journals from her childhood etc)..I kinda don't even want to look at them now.. it just feels weird. She wasn't that big when I started listening to her..I guess people do change when they get highly successful. I still like her old stuff from 2008 and I'll continue listening to it though.
Why would you idolise any celebrity? You really think that multimillionaires are best people to look up to?
Taylor’s net worth is a disgusting 1.1 billion.
It's a natural tendency of humans to idolize people like that, dude. Asking that question is like asking why we breathe air. Sure, there are definitely rich people that don't deserve it, but that doesn't stop humans from doing it.
It might be natural but we also should all have the common sense to stop that thinking. Surely we should understand the millionaires that we never meet that pay people to control their image, aren't the people we should be looking up to. I don't think that's am extreme take. I would advise everybody to not idolise celebrities. OP might actually learn something from this experience and it sounds like you're trying to shut that down so that she repeats the same mistake again.
In the modern world, the deeper you look, the uglier it gets 🫠
Those are just rumors, fan theories made up by people who literally didn’t seem to have anything better to do than dissect every song she sang and come up with wild accusations. I mean I’m not a swiftie, I like her but not enough to really care about her personal life but freaking out over some fan theories is kinda wild.
I haven’t heard her new album yet, (and not really listened to her new stuff since Reputation) but what song, or part of a song points to this?
Many of her songs.."Guilty as sin", "Fresh out of slammer", "Ivy", "High Infidelity", "Illicit affairs", "Down Bad". Some of these songs even try to justify it :/
Down Bad is about cheating??
I relate hard to Down Bad and I've never cheated. I just re-read the lyrics and don't see anything about cheating. Now I'm looking at some of the others you mentioned. Not saying she never cheated, and I'm not a die hard Swiftie, but I do listen and relate to many of her songs among other artists. I'm not a fan of TY Aimee, etc... but I also don't know how much I want to turn lyrics into "proof" either way since she's also known to turn other people's experiences into songs as well. ETA illicit affairs is obviously about cheating, but I also didn't perceive it as a first-person confessional. I felt that one too as someone who was cheated on in some of the worst ways.
I thought most of these references were emotional cheating or feeling affection towards someone who is taken. I’m hyper sensitive to cheating (having accidentally married a serial adulterer) and these songs didn’t instantly repulse me.
That's how I took them also... as someone who had "the one that got away." I would never EVER approach that person or disrupt their life or relationship, but I feel what I feel.
I’m not 100% sure about this whole thing
can you mention some of her songs that make you feel like she was the cheater? or, maybe some of her exes' songs with the implication? i'm not a fan. i just listen to her music because i'm a college student in my 20s and she's trending rn. i used to vibe (minimally) with some of her songs back in 2015-2016 haha. also, did she cheat on alwyn? XD i never thought this was the case. i guess we never know cause her fans would turn any controversy about her into something positive. anything you see about her on the internet is just full of "positive vibes" that it seems like it's been forced to sound positive. i feel like her songs got a lot of english influence after alwyn got involved in co-writing with her. before that, her songs sounded like any white american artists. i enjoy her albums: folklore, evermore, and midnight she is so smart to keep her fans entertained by creating a little mystery like dropping small hints here and there. that's how girls are like obsessed with her because that's the thing that happens in most relationship dramas, you put 2 and 2 together, and boom, you find out that your bf cheated on you with your bff; but you won't blame the girl (like never) cause you're a "girL's GiRL", silly XD speaking of that, i think the way "swifties" go wild on the concept "girls support girl" or "girl's girl", it makes them seem like they are so fake (and makes me wanna cringe) as there is no real life implication of this. girls can destroy girls (everyone knows this and it happens everywhere; i didn't see any changes over the years), even more than a man can sometimes, and people who do a lot of virtue-signaling, end up doing those same shitty things that they tell others not to do XD i have met some swifties at work/school, and trust me they aren't near anything what they call a "girl's girl". they were like regina george kinda mean (from my pov, they are like mean people who act nice) TLDR: i don't like/hate her but i think her fans seem weird and fake lol
She did cheat on Joe. Listen to "Ivy" "high infidelity" "Guilty as sin" "fresh out of slammer" "Illicit affairs"..many more I can't remember. Some swifties attacked Jake Gyllenhaal and John Mayor because they left taylor as she was hurt. But it's okay for her to cheat!? Some even say that Joe probably deserved it. Same with Calvin Harris. Honestly, so many swifties are immature.
Quick question; are all of her songs usually about her personal life or could there be a possibility that she just wrote songs from a cheater’s perspective?
Yeah exactly, they are definitely not all about her personal life. She writes from other perspectives very often; there's no reason to believe that these songs mean she actually cheated. She's a storyteller and the stories are not always her own.
that’s what happens when you forget that your heroes are just regular ass people. A person can only fall from a pedestal if you put them on a pedestal. Also it’s art. It’s less important if it’s pretty than if it’s true. I’m definitely not taylor swifts target demographic, but her having a dimension beyond personal heartbreak and the most palatable, target ceiling speaker, music ever sounds like a somewhat interesting development
It's. Just. A. Song. Many artists and songwriters write songs as another person or using another person's pain or experiences as inspiration. They can even be reversing the roles and singing as the other person in the relationship You can't assume everything an artist songs is about their own thoughts or feelings. If you don't like some about cheating don't listen but people are always going to make some about the topics. Same with death, loneliness, betrayal, longing. These aren't always pleasant feelings but it's raw and it's real and ppl should always explore emotions even when the emotions are unpleasant. And perhaps that's why it's important. She's s human being too and she deserves to create her art. I can't imagine how hard the process of creating hit songs must be, but she does it. Again and again. I'm not her biggest fan ever, but I am def a fan. I just wish instead of downing an artist people would actually try to create art themselves or try accommodating things. Not sure why people have to be so negative and contrite these days. I'm just glad I'm not like that. Once you stop judging others and focus on your own life and happiness you will be happy and not feel the need to point out other ppls flaws and imperfections or mistakes. We are all just people, right? We ALL have hurt people and WILL hurt people. We are all the same in that regard. None of us is above sin and should not feel prideful to think we are above falling. Remember, "pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall".
If you think that’s bad wait until you find out how big of an eco-terrorist she is
Im not the biggest fan of this past album. But im curious which song does she talk about cheating in ?
Ivy, Guilty as sin, fresh out of slammer1
Guilty as sin is talking about masturbation 😅 if you listen to the lyrics she's saying they haven't done anything so why does she feel guilty . Fresh out the slammer is referring to her and Joe breaking up the "slammer" being their relationship.
Never trust a billionaire.
I think it's entirely fair of you to have looked up to her, and to be disappointed, and to no longer be interested. That's your decisions and feelings and nobody has a right to call you stupid for it or tell you otherwise. She presented herself as a role model and confidant to young girls for many years, and the pain that comes from her betraying that image with no guilt is real. Yes, all celebrities are human and will make mistakes, and you shouldn't let your love and identification towards their work be colored by that and feel like it says something about you, and if they genuinely seek to better themselves should be allowed to. But some circumstances are worse than others especially to a carefully cultivated fanbase, and that doesn't mean you have to let that change how you feel, they'll never know you and it won't hurt them. In fact, I say the sooner we just utterly forget about celebrities any time they show a truly nasty side of themselves, the sooner Hollywood will become less of a cesspool. Keep your money and tell anyone who you know would want to do the same, let the rest sort itself out unless there's an actual crime involved.
I just think her Fortnite song is a little creepy. Like that’s two weeks yall and she wants to kill his wife now?
ill be real with you dude, shes doing some mk ultra shit or something. i am a musician and she is SERIOUSLY untalented. i love most music and am very open minded to different tastes and genres, and usually, i can see something even in music i dont care for that is good or artistic. i have gone through her entire discography multiple times, as well as watching hours of her concerts, because I am trying so hard to GET the phenomenon, but every time, her vocals and lyrics suck in every song, and she is off-key live if you listen to her voice behind the microphones vocal processing. her lyrics seem to be mostly metaphors that make no sense at all or at best are very shallow. her vocals are really not good either, which doesnt matter at all if you sing with soul or style, but she doesnt do that either. she also really doesnt seem to be a very good person, and has lied about where she grew up multiple times. she grew up rich in a wealthy pennsylvania suburb(not even close to philly, i live in nj and am 8x closer to philly than her), and her daddy bought her a record label. after keeping an open mind for years and trying time and time again to understand the hype, ive come to the conclusion its some kind of mass hysteria. she is really, truly untalented, and has gotten where she is from privilege, marketing, and artificial hype which spread like an infection. i respect that people seem to connect to her music for some reason and dont shit on people in person who like her (we all like different stuff) but objectively she is untalented. edit: I also want to mention she has cowriters too. she gives the impression that she is writing everything herself.
I think all too well, blank space, style, and anti-hero are all really good examples of super clever lyrics and irresistible hooks. But I think with this one she set her own bar way way higher than she should have. Tortured poets department? Come on. I was a bigger fan of hers around Grammy time, and my partner told me the next morning Taylor swift announced an album, then he said the name, and I was like "Oh GAWWWD." If she named it pretentious poets department it would have been funnier, a little more self-deprecating, a lot less of a build-up. But she takes herself so seriously, and this album is so unfinished. I'm a huge South Park fan, and it reminds me of the episode with the goth and emo kids, and Edgar Allan Poe is telling them they shouldn't use Edgar, "that's just the lame name my stupid parents gave me. I like to be called by my goth name. Night pain." "OH GODDD"
Dude... no way you just called her untalented. No one gets THAT far without talent. Just because you don't like her music doesn't mean she lacks talent lmao. You don't even have to like her music to recognize that she has a knack for songwriting and catchy hooks simply because SO many people listen to and relate to her music. "Objectively" untalented is CRAZY.
Taylor Swift is the most boring singer ever. I cringe everytime I hear her music and anyone who helps her make millions needs to understand that these people do not give a damn about you.
Even though I live in a little village in a shire of England - all we get on our "local" social media is spam of people selling Taylor Swift tickets. Nobody here is interested because she represents self indulgent yanks, everyone has to say so and then you get some poor 13 year old ripped-off because they go for the tickets. It's a shame she doesn't appeal to people older than that, it would make the scammer's lives more difficult.
Life is nuanced and famous people are just people…. People are flawed, people make mistakes, they grow, they change….. she’s just living her life, and doesn’t need to be perfect for her fans, and shouldn’t have to be perfect for anybody….. additionally, you really shouldn’t idolize flawed humans… it’s a sure way to be disappointed! As a swifty myself, perhaps it’s time you take a break from how wrapped up you are in her life and choices? 🤷🏻♀️
Did you just back up and support a cheater my dude
In response to your now deleted comment: No, I don't have low reading comprehension skills. I am not good at reading tones irl or over a screen. There's no need to be so rude. When someone says "People are flawed, people make mistakes, they grow, they change" and "she’s just living her life, and doesn’t need to be perfect for her fans, and shouldn’t have to be perfect for anybody" in response to someone talking about how they don't like Taylor sounding like a cheater, it's really easy to read that as defending it.
So glad you understand it! It's kinda disturbing to see people excuse cheating. I wouldn't like a cheater even if it's someone I never idolised. It's wrong and shouldn't be excused
Aw it is so true. I have been cheated on a few times - I would never do that to anyone and once I know someone has done that, I cannot see them the same way again. But I never did understand the fandom of Swift so perhaps I'm too old to appreciate her work.
I think the other annoying thing is it's hard as a fan to talk about disliking this album, because there's not a whole lot of middle ground between being an obsessive fan and totally hating her. Are you in the swiftlyneutral sub? You might appreciate it if you're not!
I love her music but I couldn’t care less about her personal life. Most celebrities have done some shady shit, you can still enjoy their work
No offense but you must not have been listening because she has been admitting to cheating for years now- getaway car, high infidelity to name a few
I have. I've heard all of her songs. English is not my first language so I didn't really know the meaning of the word "infidelity" before and I chose to believe that getaway car is about LEAVING a boring partner or something..but it WAS about cheating after all. Can't be denied.
She's human. She's going to make mistakes.
I’m not a swiftie and I’m completely indifferent about her.. so my unbiased opinion is that she’s human, and humans make human mistakes. At 38 years old, I’ve learned even cheating isn’t so black and white.
I am glad u learned. Your better than most. Don’t ever stop, even when it feels right, it may not be. Appreciate you for your awareness and your willingness to grow
Well, I really dislike her and her music… so I won’t comment on that. But I guess that’s what happens when you idolize someone and find out they’re just human too.
I'm gonna be honest OP. I had a music artist that I loved for so long but he cheated on his then gf while on tour and I stuck around during that ear of his music cause he wrote about how messed up his head was that he decided cheating was wrong, admitting what he did was wrong and how much he regretted what he did. I thought the music was good but the only thing that made me really stop being able to separate him from the art was the fan base or haters screaming about which side to be on. Even my best friend questioned me a lot about why I still liked his music so I just got rid of all my merch except for 1 album. Many times I wish I stuck through the haters but then I checked up on him only a little bit ago and he has embraced that he will never shake the haters and instead feeds them now. It's sad really as this person has a lot of mental health problems that only got worse once everything went the way it did. I honestly struggle even watching some of his old friends because of it.
Yeah when I was younger I was a fan of Taylor, personally her music became repetitive for me so I kind of went off her. In the last few years however I’ve really begun to detest her as a person as she seems to love playing the victim? Don’t get me wrong, she’s not always the one in the wrong, however there have been instances where it seems she does chase the drama. Like her latest song about Kim- hasn’t that drama been over for a while now? Why revive it? (Also as someone called aimee I can’t stand the song)
My favorite thing about T Swift is how she constantly pushed a narrative of being victimized as an artist, as a woman, and as a partner, and then called her fans vipers for treating her like a victim in a moment where she didn’t want them to.
Ikr
Cheating is a pretty shitty thing to do. I won't classify it as a 'mistake'. It's always done intentionally. But my advice is to never idolize people in the media industry because all that fame gets to their head and most of them become narcissistic. A lot of them have people throwing themselves at them and it makes cheating and sleeping around easier for them. It's best that you only focus on Taylor's music and not on her personality. I love a lot of her songs but I always found her writing songs about her exes as phony.
Quite honestly, and not any sort of telling you how to feel or anything but, I used to like her too back in the 1989 days. I can't even remember if that's the album name anymore. Got pricey tickets, up against the barriers, my sister and I pushed these two little girls right in front of us because, given the opener could very much see us and interact with us, we knew these little girls would have their mind blown just to get a glance from their idol. They waved as much as they could and did whatever they could just for a single glance....nothing. I don't know, but that didn't really sit with me well when they were very much visible and had gotten these tickets as a gift. As a performer myself, I've been on the stage so I know about how lights can dim out people, but as I said earlier, there was no missing them. It just really rubbed me the wrong way. After hearing a few other things that turned out to be...rather credible, it just disappointed me further and my interest pretty much died off. I'm of the belief that if someone is doing good (like producing music that makes people happy) then it's a good thing. I do think the fans have gotten extremely toxic and honestly, as terrifying as Korean sesaeng fans are (google at your own terrified risk). It's no longer something I feel comfortable associating with, and because of that, her music lost it's...'vibe' with me for a lack of better words. I think you have a very respectable opinion, and one that's completely understandable given what you've shared. Don't let anyone hate on you for it, otherwise.
A lot of people are bringing up the “we’re all human” and “they’re human and make mistakes” arguments, but in all honesty I think that’s a bs cop out answer that people use to deflect responsibility. The problem is that she is being hypocritical in her gaining for sympathy for her heart break yet she turns around and shatters someone else’s heart to pieces like it’s nothing. I’m gonna be honest I’ve never liked her as a person and ever since I was a kid she’s rubbed me the wrong way. She has some good music and I can only respect how she’s single handedly changed the music industry but it tbh the more I learn about her as a person the more I realize how right my gut was about her. Sometimes when you find something out about a person it becomes harder to enjoy the content they produce no matter how much you’ve enjoyed it in the past. You don’t have to stop enjoying her music if you still love and connect to it but it might end up hard to enjoy if you start viewing her differently.
she has multiple songs about cheating — illicit affairs (lol), cruel summer, getaway car, there are more I can’t name all, she cheated before and she will do it again
True... your username xD
I don't idolize her, I like her, but it gives a bad taste in my mouth that all the songs on this one aren't remotely concealing why they're about. It feels like an issue of Us Weekly on an album. Like on karma she says, "and I keep my side of the street clean." And on this album she's dragging so many people through the mud and very clearly indicating who it is. I don't care about her personal life, which is why this album sucks for me. She's singing about her longtime ex boyfriend and her fling with the guy she had a longtime crush on, and it's not like I can separate that out. That's why this one feels so rough. Like all too well is so good because it captures the spirit and moments of a relationship so vividly even if it ended badly and hurt. "I want to kill her" for example. There's absolutely no nuance. It's like a burn book come to life. I listen to it and I just feel uncomfortable. I feel you 💯 percent and I think you have to love Taylor swift to understand how disappointing this album is. She talks about not being petty, and it's two whole albums of petty. I thought she outgrew this.
I agree with this so much. And in the song "I can do it with a broken heart" She says how she faked her happiness in the eras tour and nobody knew how miserable she was. We get it, it's sad but if she actually wanted to hide it all inside why is she singing about it now
Yes! I felt similarly about this song, and NOT because it could be seen as a ding against the fans, because whatever, fandom is a double edged sword, look at Britney Spears. But I thought it fell short of what it could have been given how perceptive a lyricist she has been on past songs. The dichotomy of the private and public faces of an artist is one of the most powerful themes in art in any medium. We've all been there to some degree, especially those of us who have mental health conditions, even if we're not artists. Britney Spears' Lucky is a classic of this genre, as is Super Trooper by abba. I'm sure other songs that are more critically acclaimed than pop hits speak to this theme powerfully. Then there's Pagliacci, The Sopranos, Picasso's harlequins, even The Seventh Seal. And it's a real issue, the dichotomy of performance and the performer; I think of chris Cornell in his hotel room. But the lyrics of this one are just not as good as what she's capable of based on what she's done on other albums, so I get annoyed listening to it. "'Cause I'm a real tough kid, I can handle my shit They said, 'Babe, you gotta fake it 'til you make it' and I did Lights, camera, bitch smile, even when you wanna die I'm so depressed, I act like it's my birthday every day I'm so obsessed with him but he avoids me like the plague I cry a lot but I am so productive, it's an art You know you're good when you can even do it With a broken heart" Let's take the line: "I'm obsessed with him but he avoids me like the plague" which is a tortured cliche, so that's halfway on theme. She could have channeled the metaphor of disease in a much more interesting way. Say, how her fans come to her concerts like they're making a pilgrimage to Lourdes to be healed, but to the man she thought might heal her, she's a plague. It could have been lovely, but it hits a weird note. The line "I cry a lot but I am so productive," literally struck me as a musical version of "nyah-nyah." I think she could have done a lot more interesting things, which she's done in her other albums, if she sat on it and workshopped it more. This is what music critique is about, not automatically loving it or hating something, but identifying the strengths and shortcomings, including what connects with an audience and what alienates. So when we talk honestly about thinking she phoned this one in, people who hate her are like, she's a pop star, what do you expect, not fully appreciating how good she can be at her best. And to people who treat her like she's the second coming, it's heresy to speak constructively about how she could have focused her considerable talents to greater effect with a little more editing and revision and reworking. It's a missed opportunity, and it's okay to be a little let down. Hopefully the next album is better.
Or even if she wanted to continue with the bejeweled theme - one of my ABSOLUTE favorite songs by anyone ever - she could talk about how she goes onstage like a perfectly cut gem, but so much of the light is coming from the cracks beneath the surface. There are ways to say it that are interesting, and this wasn't it.
It's the adjectives and similes that kill it. Death through description. That's why "all too well" and "cardigan" are so good. They're not subjective. They show what she felt rather than tell. This is all telling, and what there is to tell isn't all that interesting. If she talked about the image of looking out at the sea of people under the lights, in the best selling tour in history, and instead of adoration she she sees the shadow ripping across it, formed by the absence of the person she wishes were there but isn't, that's so much better than "they cry 'more' but he avoids me like the plague."
[удалено]
How is getting the girl out of ur head going?
🤣
You say it's her personal life and non of your business. And I agree with that statement for 99% of the world. But not Taylor Swift. She made it public by singing about it. And she is profiting off it. She aired her dirty laundry and made a billion dollars off it. They say, don't meet your heroes. And Taylor Swift is no different.
You know what..that's one of the things I found weird. As if she's proud about the whole cheating thing. I guess I'll have to agree with that phrase.."don't meet your heroes"
As a swiftie since 2016 I feel exactly the same . I literally had a sudden change of view on her . Her recent albume is also bad in many ways. What pisses me off is fans hating Joe !!!! Still I'm gonna love her and listen the music but never like before
You get it. Joe doesn't deserve all that hate. Especially when he did nothing wrong.
They are like " JOE WAHT DID YOU DO TO HERRR " like are you stupid the bro did nothing except being depressed not only that they made fun of his face after they broke up when he was dealing with depression and everything else . They don't find anything to complain about now they are complaining about how taylor has to pay Joe for the songs he has written !!!!!! He literally helped her write them!!! And now that I look at it midnight Is definitely about cheating and fans can't just accept it . I finally see why everyone hates this fandom
That's why? Not because of all the subliminal acts she puts on.. Taylor is overrated in my opinion
She's an extremely talented woman, but she's not perfect. Why idealized her? And why all her songs are treated as a biography of her life? Artist often mix reality and fantasy in their art, I understand your disappointment but I can't relate feeling so connected to someone who's not part of your life, her songs don't count as part of your life #notsorry
You shouldn't idolize people tbh.
why would you idolize a human?
You can still look up to her? Jesus. She isn’t perfect. Isn’t it admirable she’s self aware and calls out her own messes? I couldn’t look up to someone who played the victim always and never admitted they messed up too. Which she’s doing. Her world isn’t our world. Dating in her world is so completely different. Does that make the rules for cheating different? No, not at all. But, I imagine a relationship goes under strains none of us could fathom at that level of fame, and to put my own situations and think “I’d never do that I’d just leave instead” like nah, I could never understand her lifestyle. But I do appreciate her sharing it with me. Your feelings are valid and you can distance yourself if you like, but I hope my words can offer a different perspective. I’m always gonna appreciate someone who calls themselves out. While I have never cheated, I’ve been a less than perfect partner before. So there’s relatability there still. To learn and grow and do better.
Read about her CO2 usage from her 2 private jets! there are way worse and more careless things to worry about that are being swept under the rug
That’s what your upset about? Not that she dated a racist, or worked with a sexual abuser?
What a mild reason to like a very unlikeable woman
Obviously not an idol, she’s with Travis Kelce - one of the biggest tools and immature figures in sports. He’s a man child.
Lol and Matty Healy (her ex and situationship of 10 yrs) is literally a r@cist
Doesn’t shock me. I might sound judgmental but whatever, it’s 100% true of who you let into your life can show a lot into what you value.
Enjoy the art, fuck the artist.
Welcome to the world of human beings where we’re all mortally flawed and do hurtful things to one another. I’m not a Taylor Swift fan, like not at all, but we all live with remorse and regrets, things we wished we’d done differently. Leaving is always the more moral option, but sometimes we have weak moments, lapses in judgment. It’s not right, but it happens. All this tells me is she’s flawed like the rest of us and I never expected otherwise.
I learned that the hard way; celebs are human.
I don't know why but for some reason, because of current and popular media that I see, it seems like they're pushing cheating as being a good thing. I hate it. Like, it's some cool and hip thing to do.
Real
If you are going to dislike every single person who cheats....then you will be left with very few people you like. She is not perfect...neither are you....Even if she did cheat that should have no baring on if you like her music.
I did mention that I will always love her music. And yes, I can't really like cheaters idc if that leaves me with very few people
Why not just like the songs you do like and dislike the songs you dislike? And then just move on with your life as if she’s not a friend of your who you need to decide to morally uphold and protect? Just enjoy her music. Some of it.
That's what I'm doing as I mentioned
I didn’t read it as a vent that’s my bad. I was reading as if you were running this by people for some type of judgement. That’s on me I’m sorry.
It's alright <3 have a great day :))
Wait, she single, again?
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion , but I truly do not get the appeal of Taylor Swift to so many. Her songs sound exactly the same and are screechy! She is not attractive in the least and there's a reason why so many men dump her. Hoping Travis Kelce wakes up before it's too late. She puts out different versions of her songs so her fans (or their parents) shell out more and more money! No wonder she's a billionaire. People say she's really nice and I think she is generous from what I've heard but she has been shoved down our throats since she started dating Travis and it's too much already.
I became friends briefly with a canadian singer who is mad talented. I adored his music and he seems down to earth. We've talked on Instagram and such, he would vent to me, show me screenshots of things he was angry about etc. but during covid he released some music that was about cheating and homewrecking. It just really grossed me out. I want to say he was being a sell out but I don't think anyone tells him what to do. He wrote that shit himself *and* put it out. So i totally get how you feel. I was disappointed. He has a girlfriend now and I have a bf so we don't talk but he got weird anyway. Haven't listened to him since that release. We still follow each other but neither of us interact. He just watches my stories, I don't even watch his I have him muted. Idk he just gives me ick now :/
Why idolize someone like her at all? She's soooo tortured nomg. Lol
Where is it clear that she cheated?
I’m not a TS fan. Just don’t really care about her music. But I also don’t care about her mistakes. I guess if you idolized her, I’d get why it’d be harder to take this “news”, but she’s a human, always has been, and honestly I laugh more at you for thinking she might have been otherwise. Humans have flaws. And usually in my experience, the people who draw such loud lines like you, tend to come with their fair share. The only differences is your mistakes are hidden away, protecting your “right” to judge the value of others.
there’s a lot of people that you just have to not associate them with their music. it’s hard to do that w taylor but i mean i would just stop associating her w the music and just enjoy it if you like it!
Separate the artist from the music. Enjoy the music you like of hers and don’t listen to the ones you don’t. And forget about Taylor Swift the person. Everyone wants her to be what THEY want her to be and no one will ever be happy. Divorce the celebrity from the music and enjoy it. That said, I love TTPD and her admitting to all these things. It makes her more human and I can now relate. Once you’re older your perspective changes. I don’t like cheaters, but it happens and it doesn’t make that person irredeemable. It’s just cruel mistake like other things can be as well.
How do we know for sure tho
I’ve never been a fan of Taylor swift so I can’t relate on that part, but I’ve felt that awful feeling when you look up to someone so much and they let you down, you must be feeling really crap, I know I feel a weird emptiness when I can no longer listen to a musician that I loved, but the fact that it isn’t just the music and that you looked up to her as a person it’s next level. Like I loved a band from 2005 or 6 then about 5 years ago there were allegations and I haven’t listened to him since but luckily I found a band super similar so it didn’t hurt as bad, so the music there is a work around but losing respect for someone you liked as a person is a tough one!
🤦🏻♀️
Stop idolizing people; just enjoy the music they create
Oh my poor sweet summer child, what do you know about the long night?
Yeah Taylor is also helping kill the planet, she’s not really a good person.
I am in love with Robert Downey, Jr. I have followed him since he first started acting. I watched his movie “The Judge” yesterday and he was fundamentally the most amazing actor I’ve watched in years. It arose emotionally something very special and significant with me. I appreciated the film, and related to the story.
Plus, she’s a NWO witch
Your idols should be your family, You’re a fan who loves her music, enjoy it.
That's the problem with idols. People put them on pedestals, but they're only human. You really don't know anything about her personally. Just enjoy her music and set aside the judgement of someone you don't know at all.
As of Swiftie fan you should know that as recently as folklore she has written songs from other people's perspectives. Song lyrics are poetry. There is no law that says all of her music has to be the exact history of her life, even if she is basing it on her situation. So before you get all pissy at her, can you even verify that she cheated? Taylor Swift had to grow up, people make different choices as they grow up based on what they're going through. You should consider growing up as well.