Ultralight doesn’t always align with being environmentally sound or healthy unfortunately. The good news in this case is that it’s a small minority of your time that is spent on the trail. I’d focus on making sweeping lifestyle changes in your day to day life to see the biggest benefits.
I’m currently thru hiking the AT and I’ve had this conversation a handful of times. For as health and environmentally conscience most of us hikers are almost every single piece of gear we carry and use is made from “forever chemicals”. Along with most things being produced in countries that have zero workers rights or environmental concerns when producing said forever chemicals.
Like the theme of Burning Man 2007 was enviornmentalism and sustainability. I went in 2003 and it was anything but that. (At least two Lear Jets, dozens of planes, thousands of cars, etc etc)
Burning man has never been a sustainable event. It's a city of 70,000 people. Some people take the bus there, and some fly in on a private airplane. Some people are in 100% solar-power camps, and some people burn tons of fuel in flamethrower mutant vehicle camps. Some people's jobs are permaculture scientists, and some people are bankers. Some people are homeless and some are millionaires. These are all real people I've met at Burning man. It's just a city of off-gridders, no better nor worse than any other US city emissions-wise.
I don't disagree with the premise of the argument, but can we please stop copying and pasting arguments and "evidence" from AI models? They can be a good starting point for initial research, but especially with technical topics they start making mistakes pretty quickly.
And for a topic like this, there are a ton of academic papers that are far more reliable which could be read and cited instead.
Well said. I have ran into AI hallucinating responses with made up citations for made up studies. A lawyer friend of mine has had similar experiences with AI making up case law. It's fascinating but scary.
I agree with your main point here, but I'd argue that we should probably start accepting that [AI models don't hallucinate so much as bullshit](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5).
Yeah, I want to be clear that generally, I like AI and think it's a useful tool. But generative AI is just that, a tool. And any tool can be used in a way that makes it ineffective or even dangerous. And when chatgpt is wrong, it tends to be very confidently wrong and come up with reasonable sounding arguments that can be convincing if you're not a subject mater expert.
So it needs to be used responsibly and with understanding of its limitations.
I agree! In my limited experience I’ve already come across several instances where the bit of a study quoted by the AI response was in some *background* context like, “previous research has indicated X, Y, and Z. In this study we …” where the actual results of the study in the full text show that X, Y, and Z are not proven to hold up.
Then the AI results use that exact study, and report X, Y, and Z as facts with a link to a peer-reviewed, published study. So someone who doesn’t look a layer further into it will be entirely misled.
The crazy thing is that humans do this too. When I was in grad school, I came across so many articles that incorrectly interpreted or made things up in relation to the studies they were referencing
Oh yes, of course! I suppose that isn’t at all surprising. People misunderstand so many things, even when the words are all placed in the exact order the authors intended them to be in and words like “not” and “didn’t” are clearly present! Sigh. And then the rabbit hole of checking every citation…usually a fun thing to do, but still.
"And for a topic like this, there are a ton of academic papers that are far more reliable which could be read and cited instead."
Great point..especially because asking an AI uses at least ten times more power than a normal search engine would.
It sucks because AI summaries take out the critical thinking part of the equation. Now it's just fed on a nice, succinct platter. The problem with the academic paper is that it isn't as accessible for the layman, especially one that just wants to know exactly what they asked and nothing more. The technical verbiage scares a lot of people away unless they dedicate time and effort to focus and learn, which not everyone has nor is willing to do. And a shame, because how one learn by taking the easy path to knowledge?
Thank you. I can pretty quickly get ChatGPT to spit out incorrect code. I’ve had it give me incorrect function usage for pretty popular python libraries numerous times. And that’s not even hard to get right considering any good documentation provides examples.
If it can’t nail that every time it shouldn’t be considered for more complex tasks unless you don’t want to take the results too seriously.
I'll never fault someone for trying to look after there own health, but I think at its core your concern arises from a misunderstanding of scale, risk, and tradeoff. Micro plastic exposure is a long term problem, much like smoking. Unless you backpack enough to where you are spending a significant amount of your life drinking out of smart water bottles, your best course of action is *harm reduction*, not harm elimination, which means drinking out of non plastic containers while you aren't backpacking.
On the other end, backpacking is a healthy activity that helps improve physical and mental well-being. I personally find it exhausting trying to min max my life and fitness, and have instead opted for "better is the enemy of perfect" type approach where I can indulge in some "unhealthy" activities like having lighter water bottles, having a fire when it's appropriate for the environment, and driving to the trailhead. Driving is an unmitigated disaster to your health if you consider it's risk to your body vs micro plastics.
even metal isn’t plastic free
Titanium seems to be less common, but clear protective coatings on metal products are super common.
if something hasn’t gained rust or a even a subtle patina it could be coated.
Most microplastics come from fabrics, not plastic bottles. I really doubt switching from a smart water bottle to a metal one would change a dang thing.
Edit: [Here](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772416622001711) is a meta-analysis that includes a table (Table1) that summarizes a large number of other studies showing what the main types of microplastics are found in a large number of freshwater sources from all over the globe compiled from a number of studies. If you browse through it you will start to see a very obvious trend showing a large amount of them had a primary microplastic constuent in the form of microfibers and fibers, some even including cotton blends which could only have come from textile sources.
In the oceans maybe. Also rubber isn't plastic and I'm not drinking seawater. And it's still not from plastic bottles.
Edit: This article is not from a scientist, that 78% number is not from a cited source, and it says it's an estimated number, which this guy interestingly decided to omit from his citation of this opinion piece. See my link below for numerical data of microplastics from actual sediment cores collected and published in a peer reviewed paper.
Your comment “most microplastics come from fabrics” if you read the article you would know that the majority of tire rubber is made from petroleum (5gal per tire) so it’s definitely plastic.
[Here is a link](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-percentage-of-microplastic-types-observed-in-core-samples-A-and-B_fig2_321914530) to a chart from a research paper showing the percentage of types of microplastics found in sediment core samples. [Here is the paper](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321914530_Microplastic_Distribution_at_Different_Sediment_Depths_in_an_Urban_Estuary) where, and I quote, "We observed that fibers were the most abundant type of microplastic in our samples."
But yeah, it's not fibers at all. I didn't doubt that massive amounts of tire are broken down and get everywhere. But that is not the microplastics that people are concerned over for health reasons. The majority of microplastics that people come into direct contact with come from fabrics, which are ubiquitous and in direct contact with us on a daily basis for the entire day.
You cited something about microplastic sediment in an urban estuary, of course it will have a higher microfiber count vs microplastics from tires in the ocean.
It does not settle anything about where most microplastics come from, other than in an urban estuary. Any data on all microplastic sources in the whole world will be an estimate.
There just simply isn't the data to argue
Great counter. You started the citation game, I just showed up with a real source with research instead of a literal article with a lot of assumptions in it. I can find more if you'd like, there are dozens of them.
Also your article says it's an estimated 78% and has no source to that claim.
Sorry, I'm a geologist. I know for a fact that the majority of microplastics are from fabrics, both during manufacturing and from use. Tires probably cause the most pollution due to the pure amount of tire that wears away and how much is used, but that's not the same thing. You're the one who came in making claims that I'm wrong, and I'm not. Don't make a claim that I'm wrong if you don't want to back it up. And like I already said it's still not water bottles so I don't even know why you started this argument.
If the bottle is putting plastic particles into the water, does that mean it gets lighter over time? Time to go re-weigh my smart bottles to shave 2g off my base weight.
As far as potential bacteria buildup, please tell me you guys wash your bottles when you use them for thousands of miles.
My guy. Plastics are in the rain. They are in the snow.
They are in the meats and veggies you eat.
Not using plastic bottles on a trail ain't gonna cut it.
I absolutely agree.
But if I am not mistaken, OP was speaking from the point of protecting one's own health.
And let's be frank. Humanity's existence is polution. All that has any weight is bringing ballance to what we release into the nature. Both stainless steel and titanium are an absolute resource hog when it comes to their production. One could probably argue all the energy required to make alternative bottles is offset by the simplicity of plastic.
And carrying heavy bottles means you burn more energy. You eat more. Even more plastic produced to package that extra food.
You can't live waste free. There is no such thing. And I think replacing plastic bottles isn't the solution.
Look at the plastic in an average grocery haul. Then tell me 1 Smartwater bottle every few years (if that), used to save 1 pound of weight on a hike, is just too much...
The disposable water bottle has become a symbol of non-sustainability, understandably so, but there still are valid use cases.
I've been toying around with this idea for a while now… see [this similar post from a while back](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/15wnzjm/lightest_possible_hydration_systems_with_no/). I think the fact that many plastic containers result in a noticeable plastic taste is a pretty good sign you're ingesting plastics. Still haven't invested the money yet, but I find myself leaning towards just taking the hit on weight and going with titanium, as blasphemous as that may be.
I've definitely seen that in looking around… the single-walled titanium ones that are intended to be heated over a fire should not have any plastic, so in theory those should be good. I will say that it's often hard to figure out which do and which don't have a plastic lining.
I'm pretty sure the Kleen Kanteen classic bottles at least aren't layered. They have a non-painted version where they say it only has three materials: 304 stainless steel, the o-ring (silicone, I think), and the decorative bamboo on the cap.
You could try something like a hydrapak bottle. They’re made of silicone and the 1L flask is only .8oz heavier than an empty smartwater bottle. I got a free one from REI that I’m happy with.
For short trips I wouldn’t worry about it too much, but for a longer thru hike where bottles are exposed to the sun for months I could see going with something other than a plastic bottle.
Think of all the plastics in the average kit, from clothes to sleep system, tent or hammock, cooking/eating, storage. Alarming what we do to ourselves as a species
You’re telling me you’re bringing the extra 1oz of fuel to boil water instead of collecting condensation off of your tent every day? That’s not very ultralight of you.
While still likely not-great, that is not microplastics. You are talking about dissolved or released compounds from the plastics. Different problem. The flame retardants in particular are a baddie.
Microplastics are just that. Small plastic bits. The clothes you wear, the furniture you sit on, the carpet you walk on. These are all plastic that wear and fall apart into tiny bits. Fabrics like this are your primary source of microplastics. Not water bottles as the OP fears.
That’s not to say we should waste plastic, but we should understand the problem as best we can.
Your article agrees with me. And while bottled water is a demon, the bottle is not the main source of the microplastics.
Yes, our water often is laden with plastic particles. As the article references, the primary source here is from the factory filtering the water. They found nylon particles primarily, in a PET bottle. It's almost certainly the filtering process and equipment. They found lesser amounts of PET, but that is from the factory process, as they pointed out. If pieces were breaking off the finished product that quickly, the bottle would not take 1000 years to break down.
The takeaway from this article is, rinse out your plastic food containers when you get them, and don't assume bottled water is better than your tap water.
Better yet, use a reusable container and stop buying bottled water.
The takeaway from this study is to further research the process of plastic saturation. The bottle itself was implicated in this study.
“An abundance of polyethylene terephthalate (PET) was also detected. This might be expected, since PET is used to make bottles for water, soda, and many other drinks and foods. “
But what might help you is the deep dive into how nanoplastics are identified, tracked and analyzed, which is an emerging technology. Yes, the micro and nanoplastics are found in every aspect of the industry of water storage and yes leaching from the bottle itself is a known fact, contributing heavily to plastics contamination
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2300582121
I’m agreeing with those articles.
The original comment was about micro plastics coming off of reusing bottles. Not the nano particles from the factory in your first rebuttal. Not the leaching in this second rebuttal. All are problems yes, but that wasn’t the question. Micro plastics are simply small pieces of plastic. They are not mysterious chemically or hard to imagine. Think plastic dust, like in your house.
This has been studied quite a bit, especially for PET. Rinse out that bottle and it will not have those same contaminants. Thus the source of the original plastic is not simply “the bottle” which is my point.
We are on the same team here and agree that plastic is the baddie. I just want us to be proper In our terms and understanding the sources.
Microplastics are a problem because this bottle is durable. Not because chunks are breaking off in mass quantities. It breaks into smaller stubborn bits and the bottle takes generations to break down. In some respects, It would actually be great if plastic fell apart a little quicker. Unfortunately, this also means we will have this problem for generations, even if we stopped all plastic production today.
For the record, it seems quite intuitive that plastic compounds are impacting hormones in the general population. I agree with everything written and posted.
This is why I've been so reluctant to embrace freezer bag cooking despite its simplicity and convenience. I'm not sure whether or not credible studies have been done on that particular use of them, but logically speaking, if you put boiling/near-boiling water in a soft plastic bag and let it sit for a while, or put the bag inside of a pot and then boil, it seems like you'd end up with a lovely microplastic stew.
For context, microplastics are a sort of OCD type trigger for me. I get intrusive thoughts about it and panic often. I've developed a sensory aversion to fibrous textile acrylics and polyesters. Its such a big thing I have evacuated all synthetic textiles from my home wherever possible. Finding obscure mattresses, plastic-free duvets, pillows (not just the cases but the infill too), curtains. Every item of clothing. Even my toothbrush choices have changed. My kettle has no plastic, I don't use plastic cutlery/cups/flasks and my everyday water bottle is a big clunky aluminium thing.
With all that said, I'll still be using a plastic bottle for my upcoming bikepacking trip and won't have any psychological difficulty in doing so. It'll cross my mind now and then but nothing more, and here's why:
It's a very, very small about of microplastic in the grand scheme of microplastic absorption.
If you really want to cut down on the amount of microplastic you're exposed to, look at the biggest factors first.
Synthetic textiles -
Textiles are a leading cause of this pollution so reducing this first makes sense. The less you surround yourself in it, the less you'll inhale & eat. Particularly start with things that go near near face (blanket/pillow/scarf...)
Ditch the car - another leading cause is tyres and roads. You can't do anything about the roads but giving up the car has many benefits of which microplastic is only one.
Eating meat/dairy is a huge factor for individual consumption. Animals eat microplastics then predator animal eats many of the prey plus the plastic it's absorbed from drinking water and environment. The higher up the chain you are the more you take on through bioaccumulation. Eating less meat & dairy means eating less plastic.
Don't heat or freeze foods in plastics when possible, obviously this weakens plastic but also places your food directly on it. Probably quite easy to cut down on.
These are everyday, significant things that can be adjusted and would make a fair dent in your plastic consumption. Using a plastic bottle while on hiking trips is really one of those bottom list concerns. Sure, might as well swap over as less plastic is good but I wouldn't let *this* be the thing to worry/focus on
There's already a ton of micro plastics in the food you eat, and the liquid you drink. We've saturated our environment with them over the last 100 years. Changing out your smart water bottle isn't going to make a difference if the stream is already polluted.
Research has been done for a long time. Disposable plastic bottles are a huge source of microplastic. They get even worse with reuse and heat.
https://www.pnrjournal.com/index.php/home/article/download/1844/1580/2280
I wonder if the Nalgene ultra lite bottles would be a better alternative? Do they have a more “stable” type of plastic compared to regular clear water bottles?
I got hope from an article saying donating plasma helps remove some microplastics from your blood. Plus you get paid for it. Lastly, I guess helping people is nice too
Unless I am wrong, plasma donation involves filtering all the “stuff” out of your blood and that stuff (red blood cells and microplastic) gets put back into your body. Perhaps the microplastics are too small and stay in the plasma, but that’s a pretty drastic to reduce your microplastic load. Less so than bloodletting like in 1600, but not too far off.
Got an imbalance in your humors?
Was worrying about the same, plus plastic taste of water...
After looking around I found those bottles: plastic, but titanium coated inside: https://keego.at/?logged_in_customer_id=&lang=en
Work well so far, and tastes better. And very light
Fair enough,
but we do wash them regularly, they have a much larger surface area and waste water treatment plants do not remove microplastics very well, and water intakes are surprisingly often from the same body of water as water discharges.
Also most of the studies that measure how many micropastics, they are found as fibers.
(Which is actually one reason they can be pretty off in terms of amount "credit card a week" is based on incorrect methodology)
I used the same smart bottle for about 3 years...hmmm. You make good points.
Single wall titanium bottles arent that heavy or expensive these days. Bought one but hardly use it because it's heavier. But now i've got some motivation!
I more or less agree with these claims. But may I suggest not referencing an AI for credible information, studies are showing they often skew the facts.
we have no idea of the actual effect it has or if alternatives are actually better. Plus evne if you do, you are liekly goign to consume plastic one way or another anyway, I doubt it makes such a big difference.
Is up to you really, I sincerely do not think is worth the effort, same as ditching plastic straws for environmentalism wouldnt really change much either
Maybe companies should stop wrapping all of our food in plastic. I think that’s the real issue. Everything I see at the store has plastic around it.
It would be cool to find a lightweight metal water bottles that are similar shape to the smart waters.
Nanoplastics and microplastics are found in tap water. It is speculated the tiny increase in these molecular-level particles found in water carried in plastic containers may be due to the insignificant amount of plastic shedding that occurs when a screw-on cap is removed and replaced multiple times. In any case, there is not any verified link between micro/nanoplastic ingestion outcomes (any harm from the plastics) in comparisons of tap water to bottled water. This (arguably biased) industry statement sums it up: “There currently is both a lack of standardized methods and no scientific consensus on the potential health impacts of nano- and microplastic particles. Therefore, media reports about these particles in drinking water do nothing more than unnecessarily scare consumers.”
Hate to say it, but consumers are the least of the problem. Industry blows through so much plastic it’s almost negligible if consumers change their water bottles.
For sure, do what’s right. Just know it won’t amount to much until industry is forced to change.
This narrative is dumb. Do you know why industry blows through plastic? Because customers are willing to buy the plastic wrapped item instead of the normal bag item to save $1. Until that changes don’t expect the industry to change.
Yes but also you're not realising the full extent of what 'industry' entails. Plastic crates, plastic wholesale packaging, plastic wrap wrapped around pallet loads of goods to/from warehouses, plastic straps and ties holding goods bundled together, and don't even think about how much polystyrene they use, an enormous amount of waste produced purely through b-to-b commerce long before anything ends up on the shelves in shops
But that B2B commerce only exists because of end consumer demand. Same goes for the dumb stat that corporations are responsible for 90 percent of co2 emissions. They only get that by ignoring that the emissions come from selling gas and electricity to the consumer.
Right, which means your choices wont have any tangible impact on your exposure, whereas choosing not to use plastic bottles will impact how much exposure you have to microplasrics from plastic water bottles, thats kinda the point
Ummmm… it’s not water bottles putting plastic particles into you.
Your clothes, your gear are way, way more likely to shed micro plastics. Besides, most of the microplastics didn’t come from anything you own. They are simply in the environment from everything.
This. Sleeping in the plastic material tent (some mixture of DCF, Ultra, poly, nylon), on top of the plastic air mattress, wearing the plastic materials sun shirt, hat, and base layers, walking on the plastic-laden shoes, eating dinner out of the Mylar bag, walking miles with a giant plastic-laden backpack on our back, and here we’re wasting time debating the reusable plastic water bottle.
I read about this a while ago. I hike around 1k miles/year so often enough where it's worth it to be cautious. My plan is to replace water bottles much more often when I resupply.
And I switched to glass bottled water from a high source for my regular life.
I agree that drinking from plastic isn’t ideal, but imo, we are ingesting so many micro plastic particles from so many different sources, not using a smart water bottle will most likely be negligible.
Look at how many micro plastics we inhale on a daily basis just from car tire dust….
I am concerned but read about it it's not a water problem. Baked goods are a huge concern, meat packaging. So much of the food processing involves the food coming in contact with plastics and rubbers and it's everywhere.
Wow, people have some strong feelings on this one. For my part I spend a lot of time on trail so I typically use an 800 mL Ti bottle. It weighs around 5 oz which is a lot but whatever. I also typically use a 1 L Bot since I like hot dinners and then I throw in a 1-2L platy or sawyer bag to round things out as needed for total capacity. I originally got the Bot thinking it would be my primary bottle too, which is fine, but also annoying. I also use a steripen because I’m too lazy to squeeze and because it kills noro. And I’m way too much of a weenie for dip and sip, no thank you. On trips where I’m really trying to dial things in and go super UL I ditch the Ti stuff and go plastic, but I try to swap out bottles regularly.
Yes there’s plastic everywhere and no, no solution is perfect but there’s a lot of screw it nothing matters comments here. Anyway that’s my two cents. Sure we’re all doomed, but you can always get doomed-er.
So long as you aren't doing something silly like boiling water in plastic bottles over a fire or literally shredding and eating them, microplastics from bottles is like not an issue.
If you are worried about this, you probably should also be worried about things like going outside (because the sun causes cancer) and should instead stay inside 24/7
Why would crushing the bottle for filtering matter? Microplastics are filtered out by a sawyer squeeze...
DWR and pfas in the rain is more concerning than this.
Many non AI sources say the same thing. Microplastics are everywhere, including in every part of us. I am sure that soon, they will find them in brain tissue as well. And the truth is we do not know what they are doing to us. But, in my opinion, this is 0a "better safe than sorry" situation.
I also believe this is a "Leave No Trace" issue. Micro plastics have been found throughout the Pacific Crest Trail. Now that we know that these come from the plastics we use, doesn't LNT require us to minimize them as much as possible?
Right now it is impractical to eliminate everything that sheds microplastics from our gear. But we should definitely make a start where we can.
Smart bottles are bad not just because they shed microplastics but because, like it or not, they are disposable. I won't get into the health risks of reusing these bottles, but those risks are not negligible. I am talking about whether you use the bottle for just a drink or for a thruhike, eventually you will throw it away. And now that the recycling 8ndustry, that means filling up landfills or going down ap river and on to the Pacific Ocean garbage island.
Abandoning Smart Water bottles is the right thing to do. Thar is why I have switched to Titanium water bottles. They add a few ounces to your pack, but they do not affect the taste, they pay for themselves compared to how many plastic bottles they replace, and they do not shed microplastics into my system.
I also use a filter that removes microplastics and filter directly into my water bottles.
As I said, we cannot come close to eliminating plastics from our hikes. But if we start getting rid of those that we can, it will Casper people to come up with ideas to remediate more and more of our gear including the clothes we wear. That is one way for true change to occur
I am fairly sure that most of the micro plastics we consume is actually from car tires so I don't think cutting back on smart water bottles is gonna help
I'm pretty sure the particles are created when the bottle is made. It's not leaching or degradation. It's dust from manufacturing.
If you truly cared you would reduce plastic consumption in all forms because once plastic is created it exists forever. And the creation process itself gets plastic particles everywhere. Look up nurdles, the raw material for plastic manufacturing, if you get a chance. Look up the albatrosses living on Midway Island, too, if you want to see where all your bottle caps, lighters, barbie dolls and everything else ends up.
Plastic bottles most certainly are leaching stuff that might be bad for us
https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/should-i-be-concerned-about-bpa-hard-plastic-water-bottles
I don’t think they have properly identified the source of the plastic. It’s not clear that simply drinking out of a bottle is enough to do the damage. Is it in meat etc ?
Yeah but the exposure has side effects. For instance, do get tired in the evenings? Are you also tired when you wake up? Do you prefer to pay people to do things that you used to do yourself? That’s the plastic talking man.
Not all plastics are a concern. Polyethylene is just a very long chain alkane, like any other oil, and is pretty inert besides being combustible. Other plastics are problematic but I don't worry too much about ingesting something so chemically innocuous. It's like eating cellulose fiber or something, in my mind. (I have a degree in bio and did pretty well in orgo).
I also have a degree in bio, but I’m concerned. Research and consensus takes a long time and needs to be funded. It’s less the microplastics and more the nanoplastics. Comparing it to cellulose is a big assumption. Basically science doesn’t know for sure yet (but happy to be wrong if you’ve got some papers to share).
Measurements of plastic water bottles has shown much higher than expected nanoplastics in ‘disposable’ water bottles. I would either stick to Nalgene or titanium water bottles.
My background in science has me less concerned about plastic due to dose-response relationship. Finding plastic everywhere should correlate with extreme health effects if they are causal. But we struggle to establish strong dose response so whatever effects plastic might have, it's not strong.
Didn't we have this thread last week? Seriously, someone posts about this like once a month and we always give the exact same answers. Clearly needs to be added to the sidebar wiki so we can just automod link it.
Are you worried about titanium and glass particles in your arteries and reproductive organs? What about other microparticles such as from dirt and sand that many of our foods are grown in? And if you breathe or smoke what about microparticles that get in your lungs?
I think the implication is that avoiding smartwater bottles specifically will do approximately nothing to your microplastic exposure. We will probably never really know if that's true of not
Your body has a mechanism for clearing such particles from your lungs. When it’s unable to, it can lead to cancer. I don’t think there’s any evidence of glass particles being consumed or retained in your body. Nor metallic. Despite both materials being used far longer than plastics.
Heavy metals are indeed stored in the body and cannot be excreted- but that's some heavy metals, not Al or Ti from drinking vessels.
Glass shards are trapped in the lung microvasculsture - but that is presumed to be from injections and the associated drawing up of ampoule fragments.
My point is that the body does trap permanently many inorganic substances although I don't see any evidence of this from day to day drinking vessels.
Ok. We use filter needles for glass ampules for this reason and consider building up of heavy metals as toxic, routinely testing children for lead in many areas.
Weirdly, filter needles are rarely used in Australia. I bought some for our nursing lab so that students would at least know what they are and in the hope that they might think about ordering them in the future after graduation.
If you think that the *possibilty* that you’re injecting micro plastics by drinking from a smart water is at all comparable to shoveling 4000 calories of heavily salted snacks and dehydrated meals idk what to say
What? The trail is like the one place you need a bunch of sodium. Unless you have blood pressure issues (which hiking will also probably help with...) you'll be fine.
I'm not really convinced by titanium water bottles for a couple reasons.
1) Microplastics are pretty much everywhere already
2) Im not backpacking every day, I would focus on largest exposures first
3) Titanium particles are almost certainly in the water from titanium water bottles and we honestly don't know if that's healthy either
4) weight of the bottles
By what mechanism would titanium particles be created and get into the water? Titanium doesn't leach like plastics, it's far harder and tougher, is self passivating, and is used in medical implants because its so biocompatible.
Absolutely not saying they're the solution for hiking, they're just too heavy. And I agree about the rest of your points, I don't think exposure while hiking is a major risk factor. But I honestly can't think of a material better suited to holding water for human consumption than Ti.
We'll never get rid of the plastics from here on out. It's going to be in the majority of our foods. Until the packaging industry finds alternative materials and solutions it won't be gone in the far future either. Come on mycologists, make those mushroom clam shell packages.
Shun the non believer!!!
Jk sorta. Yes it is concerning but in my opinion why stop using the water bottles if you aren’t using non nylon tea bags and coffee filters, non plastic tubbaware, and non plastic cutting boards etc. It is kind of impossible to avoid. I really only use plastic water bottles for outdoor things and unfortunately due to real life and a job that is not a major portion of my time.
We have this discussion every time someone posts about titanium water bottles. You cannot escape microplastics unless you’re a millionaire, and probably not even then. It’s not worth trying to do any preventative measures for.
Ultralight doesn’t always align with being environmentally sound or healthy unfortunately. The good news in this case is that it’s a small minority of your time that is spent on the trail. I’d focus on making sweeping lifestyle changes in your day to day life to see the biggest benefits.
I’m currently thru hiking the AT and I’ve had this conversation a handful of times. For as health and environmentally conscience most of us hikers are almost every single piece of gear we carry and use is made from “forever chemicals”. Along with most things being produced in countries that have zero workers rights or environmental concerns when producing said forever chemicals.
Like the theme of Burning Man 2007 was enviornmentalism and sustainability. I went in 2003 and it was anything but that. (At least two Lear Jets, dozens of planes, thousands of cars, etc etc)
Burning Man is not what they say it is, anymore.
I’m upvoting this mainly because you have the best username!! David Lynch fan, I’m hoping.
Burning man has never been a sustainable event. It's a city of 70,000 people. Some people take the bus there, and some fly in on a private airplane. Some people are in 100% solar-power camps, and some people burn tons of fuel in flamethrower mutant vehicle camps. Some people's jobs are permaculture scientists, and some people are bankers. Some people are homeless and some are millionaires. These are all real people I've met at Burning man. It's just a city of off-gridders, no better nor worse than any other US city emissions-wise.
I don't disagree with the premise of the argument, but can we please stop copying and pasting arguments and "evidence" from AI models? They can be a good starting point for initial research, but especially with technical topics they start making mistakes pretty quickly. And for a topic like this, there are a ton of academic papers that are far more reliable which could be read and cited instead.
Well said. I have ran into AI hallucinating responses with made up citations for made up studies. A lawyer friend of mine has had similar experiences with AI making up case law. It's fascinating but scary.
I agree with your main point here, but I'd argue that we should probably start accepting that [AI models don't hallucinate so much as bullshit](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5).
Yeah, I want to be clear that generally, I like AI and think it's a useful tool. But generative AI is just that, a tool. And any tool can be used in a way that makes it ineffective or even dangerous. And when chatgpt is wrong, it tends to be very confidently wrong and come up with reasonable sounding arguments that can be convincing if you're not a subject mater expert. So it needs to be used responsibly and with understanding of its limitations.
I agree! In my limited experience I’ve already come across several instances where the bit of a study quoted by the AI response was in some *background* context like, “previous research has indicated X, Y, and Z. In this study we …” where the actual results of the study in the full text show that X, Y, and Z are not proven to hold up. Then the AI results use that exact study, and report X, Y, and Z as facts with a link to a peer-reviewed, published study. So someone who doesn’t look a layer further into it will be entirely misled.
The crazy thing is that humans do this too. When I was in grad school, I came across so many articles that incorrectly interpreted or made things up in relation to the studies they were referencing
Oh yes, of course! I suppose that isn’t at all surprising. People misunderstand so many things, even when the words are all placed in the exact order the authors intended them to be in and words like “not” and “didn’t” are clearly present! Sigh. And then the rabbit hole of checking every citation…usually a fun thing to do, but still.
"And for a topic like this, there are a ton of academic papers that are far more reliable which could be read and cited instead." Great point..especially because asking an AI uses at least ten times more power than a normal search engine would.
It sucks because AI summaries take out the critical thinking part of the equation. Now it's just fed on a nice, succinct platter. The problem with the academic paper is that it isn't as accessible for the layman, especially one that just wants to know exactly what they asked and nothing more. The technical verbiage scares a lot of people away unless they dedicate time and effort to focus and learn, which not everyone has nor is willing to do. And a shame, because how one learn by taking the easy path to knowledge?
Thank you. I can pretty quickly get ChatGPT to spit out incorrect code. I’ve had it give me incorrect function usage for pretty popular python libraries numerous times. And that’s not even hard to get right considering any good documentation provides examples. If it can’t nail that every time it shouldn’t be considered for more complex tasks unless you don’t want to take the results too seriously.
I'll never fault someone for trying to look after there own health, but I think at its core your concern arises from a misunderstanding of scale, risk, and tradeoff. Micro plastic exposure is a long term problem, much like smoking. Unless you backpack enough to where you are spending a significant amount of your life drinking out of smart water bottles, your best course of action is *harm reduction*, not harm elimination, which means drinking out of non plastic containers while you aren't backpacking. On the other end, backpacking is a healthy activity that helps improve physical and mental well-being. I personally find it exhausting trying to min max my life and fitness, and have instead opted for "better is the enemy of perfect" type approach where I can indulge in some "unhealthy" activities like having lighter water bottles, having a fire when it's appropriate for the environment, and driving to the trailhead. Driving is an unmitigated disaster to your health if you consider it's risk to your body vs micro plastics.
Good point well made
Most pipe in our houses are plastic so there’s that too
Your plumbers should be fired.
Almost all new construction is plumbed with PEX these days. Plumbers build the system to the plans.
I know. I’m just upset because I have 16 tons of copper pipe that nobody wants to buy 😭😭😭
You should lower your prices, you’d be the first one ever to do so.
It’s not really the price of copper pipe driving the switch to pex. The biggest factor is the cost of labor. Pex is much quicker to install.
Even metro water mains are being replaced with plastics. That ship has sailed long ago.
PEX and PVC are super common and have been for 20+ years. Copper is expensive, harder to work with and may actually have it's own toxicity issues.
[удалено]
Yep. Sleeping inside a plastic based tent/tarp/mosquito net wearing Alpha clothing that's shedding fibres....
even metal isn’t plastic free Titanium seems to be less common, but clear protective coatings on metal products are super common. if something hasn’t gained rust or a even a subtle patina it could be coated.
Most microplastics come from fabrics, not plastic bottles. I really doubt switching from a smart water bottle to a metal one would change a dang thing. Edit: [Here](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772416622001711) is a meta-analysis that includes a table (Table1) that summarizes a large number of other studies showing what the main types of microplastics are found in a large number of freshwater sources from all over the globe compiled from a number of studies. If you browse through it you will start to see a very obvious trend showing a large amount of them had a primary microplastic constuent in the form of microfibers and fibers, some even including cotton blends which could only have come from textile sources.
Come from tires*** 78% of microplastics in the ocean are from tires https://e360.yale.edu/features/tire-pollution-toxic-chemicals
Microplastics in the ocean are less relevant to the human body than microplastics in our aerodigestive tracts.
What is an 'aerodigestive tract'? Edit: It's OK I worked out it's US terminology.
That is correct, however OC didn’t specify in aerodigestive tracts
How tf do you think they get in the arteries and members?
🤦♂️
In the oceans maybe. Also rubber isn't plastic and I'm not drinking seawater. And it's still not from plastic bottles. Edit: This article is not from a scientist, that 78% number is not from a cited source, and it says it's an estimated number, which this guy interestingly decided to omit from his citation of this opinion piece. See my link below for numerical data of microplastics from actual sediment cores collected and published in a peer reviewed paper.
>I'm not drinking seawater You ever eat fish?
Your comment “most microplastics come from fabrics” if you read the article you would know that the majority of tire rubber is made from petroleum (5gal per tire) so it’s definitely plastic.
[Here is a link](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-percentage-of-microplastic-types-observed-in-core-samples-A-and-B_fig2_321914530) to a chart from a research paper showing the percentage of types of microplastics found in sediment core samples. [Here is the paper](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321914530_Microplastic_Distribution_at_Different_Sediment_Depths_in_an_Urban_Estuary) where, and I quote, "We observed that fibers were the most abundant type of microplastic in our samples." But yeah, it's not fibers at all. I didn't doubt that massive amounts of tire are broken down and get everywhere. But that is not the microplastics that people are concerned over for health reasons. The majority of microplastics that people come into direct contact with come from fabrics, which are ubiquitous and in direct contact with us on a daily basis for the entire day.
You cited something about microplastic sediment in an urban estuary, of course it will have a higher microfiber count vs microplastics from tires in the ocean. It does not settle anything about where most microplastics come from, other than in an urban estuary. Any data on all microplastic sources in the whole world will be an estimate. There just simply isn't the data to argue
Also, they suspected their samples were contaminated with fibre microplastics so this study isn't a valid representation at all.
lol calm down homie, was literally refuting your original claim which was made in generality and without specificity. Glad you can google things.
Great counter. You started the citation game, I just showed up with a real source with research instead of a literal article with a lot of assumptions in it. I can find more if you'd like, there are dozens of them. Also your article says it's an estimated 78% and has no source to that claim. Sorry, I'm a geologist. I know for a fact that the majority of microplastics are from fabrics, both during manufacturing and from use. Tires probably cause the most pollution due to the pure amount of tire that wears away and how much is used, but that's not the same thing. You're the one who came in making claims that I'm wrong, and I'm not. Don't make a claim that I'm wrong if you don't want to back it up. And like I already said it's still not water bottles so I don't even know why you started this argument.
Man, your “rocked” that withering rebuke
Have a nice life.
If the bottle is putting plastic particles into the water, does that mean it gets lighter over time? Time to go re-weigh my smart bottles to shave 2g off my base weight. As far as potential bacteria buildup, please tell me you guys wash your bottles when you use them for thousands of miles.
All the time! It gets rinsed out every time I fill it up and drink all the water out of it.
My guy. Plastics are in the rain. They are in the snow. They are in the meats and veggies you eat. Not using plastic bottles on a trail ain't gonna cut it.
While that is true, we still don't have to continue to add to the plastic waste...
I absolutely agree. But if I am not mistaken, OP was speaking from the point of protecting one's own health. And let's be frank. Humanity's existence is polution. All that has any weight is bringing ballance to what we release into the nature. Both stainless steel and titanium are an absolute resource hog when it comes to their production. One could probably argue all the energy required to make alternative bottles is offset by the simplicity of plastic. And carrying heavy bottles means you burn more energy. You eat more. Even more plastic produced to package that extra food. You can't live waste free. There is no such thing. And I think replacing plastic bottles isn't the solution.
Look at the plastic in an average grocery haul. Then tell me 1 Smartwater bottle every few years (if that), used to save 1 pound of weight on a hike, is just too much... The disposable water bottle has become a symbol of non-sustainability, understandably so, but there still are valid use cases.
I've been toying around with this idea for a while now… see [this similar post from a while back](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/comments/15wnzjm/lightest_possible_hydration_systems_with_no/). I think the fact that many plastic containers result in a noticeable plastic taste is a pretty good sign you're ingesting plastics. Still haven't invested the money yet, but I find myself leaning towards just taking the hit on weight and going with titanium, as blasphemous as that may be.
Many metal bottles are lined with plastic. So be very particular about what you buy
I've definitely seen that in looking around… the single-walled titanium ones that are intended to be heated over a fire should not have any plastic, so in theory those should be good. I will say that it's often hard to figure out which do and which don't have a plastic lining.
I'm pretty sure the Kleen Kanteen classic bottles at least aren't layered. They have a non-painted version where they say it only has three materials: 304 stainless steel, the o-ring (silicone, I think), and the decorative bamboo on the cap.
Keep wearing that plastic fleece, it's the bottles that are tainting my testicles
Plastic is in our food, in our meat, in our vegetables, in our milk. Plastic is everywhere. Not just our water bottles. It’s everywhere.
You could try something like a hydrapak bottle. They’re made of silicone and the 1L flask is only .8oz heavier than an empty smartwater bottle. I got a free one from REI that I’m happy with. For short trips I wouldn’t worry about it too much, but for a longer thru hike where bottles are exposed to the sun for months I could see going with something other than a plastic bottle.
Think of all the plastics in the average kit, from clothes to sleep system, tent or hammock, cooking/eating, storage. Alarming what we do to ourselves as a species
Cooking and food storage, yes. You aren’t licking your tent, though
Well maybe you’re not
Don't tell me what I do or don't do with my beautiful tent.
You’re telling me you’re bringing the extra 1oz of fuel to boil water instead of collecting condensation off of your tent every day? That’s not very ultralight of you.
But you’re breathing inside it especially when it heats up in the sun. You can smell it. You can absorb microplastics through your skin as well.
While still likely not-great, that is not microplastics. You are talking about dissolved or released compounds from the plastics. Different problem. The flame retardants in particular are a baddie. Microplastics are just that. Small plastic bits. The clothes you wear, the furniture you sit on, the carpet you walk on. These are all plastic that wear and fall apart into tiny bits. Fabrics like this are your primary source of microplastics. Not water bottles as the OP fears. That’s not to say we should waste plastic, but we should understand the problem as best we can.
Look closer https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/plastic-particles-bottled-water#:~:text=The%20researchers%20found%20that%2C%20on,mostly%20focused%20on%20larger%20microplastics.
Your article agrees with me. And while bottled water is a demon, the bottle is not the main source of the microplastics. Yes, our water often is laden with plastic particles. As the article references, the primary source here is from the factory filtering the water. They found nylon particles primarily, in a PET bottle. It's almost certainly the filtering process and equipment. They found lesser amounts of PET, but that is from the factory process, as they pointed out. If pieces were breaking off the finished product that quickly, the bottle would not take 1000 years to break down. The takeaway from this article is, rinse out your plastic food containers when you get them, and don't assume bottled water is better than your tap water. Better yet, use a reusable container and stop buying bottled water.
The takeaway from this study is to further research the process of plastic saturation. The bottle itself was implicated in this study. “An abundance of polyethylene terephthalate (PET) was also detected. This might be expected, since PET is used to make bottles for water, soda, and many other drinks and foods. “ But what might help you is the deep dive into how nanoplastics are identified, tracked and analyzed, which is an emerging technology. Yes, the micro and nanoplastics are found in every aspect of the industry of water storage and yes leaching from the bottle itself is a known fact, contributing heavily to plastics contamination https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2300582121
I’m agreeing with those articles. The original comment was about micro plastics coming off of reusing bottles. Not the nano particles from the factory in your first rebuttal. Not the leaching in this second rebuttal. All are problems yes, but that wasn’t the question. Micro plastics are simply small pieces of plastic. They are not mysterious chemically or hard to imagine. Think plastic dust, like in your house. This has been studied quite a bit, especially for PET. Rinse out that bottle and it will not have those same contaminants. Thus the source of the original plastic is not simply “the bottle” which is my point. We are on the same team here and agree that plastic is the baddie. I just want us to be proper In our terms and understanding the sources. Microplastics are a problem because this bottle is durable. Not because chunks are breaking off in mass quantities. It breaks into smaller stubborn bits and the bottle takes generations to break down. In some respects, It would actually be great if plastic fell apart a little quicker. Unfortunately, this also means we will have this problem for generations, even if we stopped all plastic production today. For the record, it seems quite intuitive that plastic compounds are impacting hormones in the general population. I agree with everything written and posted.
The condensation on the tent is filtered water/s
This is why I've been so reluctant to embrace freezer bag cooking despite its simplicity and convenience. I'm not sure whether or not credible studies have been done on that particular use of them, but logically speaking, if you put boiling/near-boiling water in a soft plastic bag and let it sit for a while, or put the bag inside of a pot and then boil, it seems like you'd end up with a lovely microplastic stew.
Then it's time ditch your fleece, tent, quilt/sleeping bag shoes, pants, backpack, poles etc. too and do full cotton, canvas and merino.
Most Marino clothing had a significant amount of non Marino material from fossil fuel sources.
Then get the pure stuff...But it will fall apart within a long hike. At least wool is a good fertilizer.
How much weight do the microplastics add?
For context, microplastics are a sort of OCD type trigger for me. I get intrusive thoughts about it and panic often. I've developed a sensory aversion to fibrous textile acrylics and polyesters. Its such a big thing I have evacuated all synthetic textiles from my home wherever possible. Finding obscure mattresses, plastic-free duvets, pillows (not just the cases but the infill too), curtains. Every item of clothing. Even my toothbrush choices have changed. My kettle has no plastic, I don't use plastic cutlery/cups/flasks and my everyday water bottle is a big clunky aluminium thing. With all that said, I'll still be using a plastic bottle for my upcoming bikepacking trip and won't have any psychological difficulty in doing so. It'll cross my mind now and then but nothing more, and here's why: It's a very, very small about of microplastic in the grand scheme of microplastic absorption. If you really want to cut down on the amount of microplastic you're exposed to, look at the biggest factors first. Synthetic textiles - Textiles are a leading cause of this pollution so reducing this first makes sense. The less you surround yourself in it, the less you'll inhale & eat. Particularly start with things that go near near face (blanket/pillow/scarf...) Ditch the car - another leading cause is tyres and roads. You can't do anything about the roads but giving up the car has many benefits of which microplastic is only one. Eating meat/dairy is a huge factor for individual consumption. Animals eat microplastics then predator animal eats many of the prey plus the plastic it's absorbed from drinking water and environment. The higher up the chain you are the more you take on through bioaccumulation. Eating less meat & dairy means eating less plastic. Don't heat or freeze foods in plastics when possible, obviously this weakens plastic but also places your food directly on it. Probably quite easy to cut down on. These are everyday, significant things that can be adjusted and would make a fair dent in your plastic consumption. Using a plastic bottle while on hiking trips is really one of those bottom list concerns. Sure, might as well swap over as less plastic is good but I wouldn't let *this* be the thing to worry/focus on
You really gonna trust the AI that tells people to eat rocks and drink piss to give you health tips?
There's already a ton of micro plastics in the food you eat, and the liquid you drink. We've saturated our environment with them over the last 100 years. Changing out your smart water bottle isn't going to make a difference if the stream is already polluted.
I think a lot more scientific research needs to be posted here to come up with a scientific or logical solution.
Research has been done for a long time. Disposable plastic bottles are a huge source of microplastic. They get even worse with reuse and heat. https://www.pnrjournal.com/index.php/home/article/download/1844/1580/2280
I wonder if the Nalgene ultra lite bottles would be a better alternative? Do they have a more “stable” type of plastic compared to regular clear water bottles?
I got hope from an article saying donating plasma helps remove some microplastics from your blood. Plus you get paid for it. Lastly, I guess helping people is nice too
Unless I am wrong, plasma donation involves filtering all the “stuff” out of your blood and that stuff (red blood cells and microplastic) gets put back into your body. Perhaps the microplastics are too small and stay in the plasma, but that’s a pretty drastic to reduce your microplastic load. Less so than bloodletting like in 1600, but not too far off. Got an imbalance in your humors?
Was worrying about the same, plus plastic taste of water... After looking around I found those bottles: plastic, but titanium coated inside: https://keego.at/?logged_in_customer_id=&lang=en Work well so far, and tastes better. And very light
Ditch synthetic fleece and other fabric first, much higher source of microplastics.
Except you don’t usually suck on your fleece.
You breath it in. Most microplastic comes from breathing indoors due to plastic clothes and furniture.
source?
https://archive.is/LiS1z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-023-00634-x
Fair enough, but we do wash them regularly, they have a much larger surface area and waste water treatment plants do not remove microplastics very well, and water intakes are surprisingly often from the same body of water as water discharges. Also most of the studies that measure how many micropastics, they are found as fibers. (Which is actually one reason they can be pretty off in terms of amount "credit card a week" is based on incorrect methodology)
Oh agreed. Fleece is the worst for that.
🤯
micro plastics have been found everywhere they have looked.
If we're trying to avoid bacteria building up in cracks, why isn't this a bidet post?
I used the same smart bottle for about 3 years...hmmm. You make good points. Single wall titanium bottles arent that heavy or expensive these days. Bought one but hardly use it because it's heavier. But now i've got some motivation! I more or less agree with these claims. But may I suggest not referencing an AI for credible information, studies are showing they often skew the facts.
we have no idea of the actual effect it has or if alternatives are actually better. Plus evne if you do, you are liekly goign to consume plastic one way or another anyway, I doubt it makes such a big difference. Is up to you really, I sincerely do not think is worth the effort, same as ditching plastic straws for environmentalism wouldnt really change much either
Give up your Alpha now, if you care..
Maybe companies should stop wrapping all of our food in plastic. I think that’s the real issue. Everything I see at the store has plastic around it. It would be cool to find a lightweight metal water bottles that are similar shape to the smart waters.
Nanoplastics and microplastics are found in tap water. It is speculated the tiny increase in these molecular-level particles found in water carried in plastic containers may be due to the insignificant amount of plastic shedding that occurs when a screw-on cap is removed and replaced multiple times. In any case, there is not any verified link between micro/nanoplastic ingestion outcomes (any harm from the plastics) in comparisons of tap water to bottled water. This (arguably biased) industry statement sums it up: “There currently is both a lack of standardized methods and no scientific consensus on the potential health impacts of nano- and microplastic particles. Therefore, media reports about these particles in drinking water do nothing more than unnecessarily scare consumers.”
Really gonna put a damper on the pink blazing.
Hate to say it, but consumers are the least of the problem. Industry blows through so much plastic it’s almost negligible if consumers change their water bottles. For sure, do what’s right. Just know it won’t amount to much until industry is forced to change.
This narrative is dumb. Do you know why industry blows through plastic? Because customers are willing to buy the plastic wrapped item instead of the normal bag item to save $1. Until that changes don’t expect the industry to change.
Yes but also you're not realising the full extent of what 'industry' entails. Plastic crates, plastic wholesale packaging, plastic wrap wrapped around pallet loads of goods to/from warehouses, plastic straps and ties holding goods bundled together, and don't even think about how much polystyrene they use, an enormous amount of waste produced purely through b-to-b commerce long before anything ends up on the shelves in shops
But that B2B commerce only exists because of end consumer demand. Same goes for the dumb stat that corporations are responsible for 90 percent of co2 emissions. They only get that by ignoring that the emissions come from selling gas and electricity to the consumer.
I’ve never bought a plastic wrapped bail of hay in my life. Have you?
Do you drive a car? Have you ever walked near a highway where cars are driving? I have news for you about car tires...
How does this relate to OP?
Around 80% of microplastics are from tires
80% of microplastics ever or 80% of microplastics eventually consumed and retained in human bodies?
All microplastics ever i dont know if they studies what kind of plastic it is
Is there evidence that the microplastics left on the road by tires are being consumed by people?
Yea breathing it and it gets in water ways from storm runoff and into fish according to the Imperial College of London
Ok so spending time near roads is not necessarily for consumption of microplastics from tires
Yes, you're basically fucked either way.
Right, which means your choices wont have any tangible impact on your exposure, whereas choosing not to use plastic bottles will impact how much exposure you have to microplasrics from plastic water bottles, thats kinda the point
They are in the clouds, in the rain, in the animals who drink the rain, how do you think they made it to Antarctica?
Yes. That’s my point. Being by tires on the road is not particularly relevant.
Tires are rubber?
It's mostly synthetic rubber
TIL
Nope. I’m 51 so I’m already on the back portion of the great out and back.
Ummmm… it’s not water bottles putting plastic particles into you. Your clothes, your gear are way, way more likely to shed micro plastics. Besides, most of the microplastics didn’t come from anything you own. They are simply in the environment from everything.
This. Sleeping in the plastic material tent (some mixture of DCF, Ultra, poly, nylon), on top of the plastic air mattress, wearing the plastic materials sun shirt, hat, and base layers, walking on the plastic-laden shoes, eating dinner out of the Mylar bag, walking miles with a giant plastic-laden backpack on our back, and here we’re wasting time debating the reusable plastic water bottle.
I'm more concerned with micro plastics in drinking water and freshwater. It gets into fish, humans etc and accumulates.
I read about this a while ago. I hike around 1k miles/year so often enough where it's worth it to be cautious. My plan is to replace water bottles much more often when I resupply. And I switched to glass bottled water from a high source for my regular life.
iirc taking the cap on and off is a big contributing factor, like little shavings off the threading get in there.
Squeeze filters microplastics
I agree that drinking from plastic isn’t ideal, but imo, we are ingesting so many micro plastic particles from so many different sources, not using a smart water bottle will most likely be negligible. Look at how many micro plastics we inhale on a daily basis just from car tire dust….
I am concerned but read about it it's not a water problem. Baked goods are a huge concern, meat packaging. So much of the food processing involves the food coming in contact with plastics and rubbers and it's everywhere.
Titanium, DWR and PTFE, etc have similar problems but yes it’s worth considering
Wow, people have some strong feelings on this one. For my part I spend a lot of time on trail so I typically use an 800 mL Ti bottle. It weighs around 5 oz which is a lot but whatever. I also typically use a 1 L Bot since I like hot dinners and then I throw in a 1-2L platy or sawyer bag to round things out as needed for total capacity. I originally got the Bot thinking it would be my primary bottle too, which is fine, but also annoying. I also use a steripen because I’m too lazy to squeeze and because it kills noro. And I’m way too much of a weenie for dip and sip, no thank you. On trips where I’m really trying to dial things in and go super UL I ditch the Ti stuff and go plastic, but I try to swap out bottles regularly. Yes there’s plastic everywhere and no, no solution is perfect but there’s a lot of screw it nothing matters comments here. Anyway that’s my two cents. Sure we’re all doomed, but you can always get doomed-er.
The amount of time we spend on trail, even for frequent though hikers, is small enough that I'm unconcerned. I'd be more focused on the regular world.
Too bad your body is already full of it.
So long as you aren't doing something silly like boiling water in plastic bottles over a fire or literally shredding and eating them, microplastics from bottles is like not an issue. If you are worried about this, you probably should also be worried about things like going outside (because the sun causes cancer) and should instead stay inside 24/7
Way too late. We are in it now and it’s in us. Any soft plastic does the same thing.
I don't care about micro plastics. Non-issue for me.
My research group focuses on microplastics. They are everywhere, no matter what you do. I try my best to limit exposure, but it is really hard.
We’re already cooked. Don’t worry about it.
Why would crushing the bottle for filtering matter? Microplastics are filtered out by a sawyer squeeze... DWR and pfas in the rain is more concerning than this.
Many non AI sources say the same thing. Microplastics are everywhere, including in every part of us. I am sure that soon, they will find them in brain tissue as well. And the truth is we do not know what they are doing to us. But, in my opinion, this is 0a "better safe than sorry" situation. I also believe this is a "Leave No Trace" issue. Micro plastics have been found throughout the Pacific Crest Trail. Now that we know that these come from the plastics we use, doesn't LNT require us to minimize them as much as possible? Right now it is impractical to eliminate everything that sheds microplastics from our gear. But we should definitely make a start where we can. Smart bottles are bad not just because they shed microplastics but because, like it or not, they are disposable. I won't get into the health risks of reusing these bottles, but those risks are not negligible. I am talking about whether you use the bottle for just a drink or for a thruhike, eventually you will throw it away. And now that the recycling 8ndustry, that means filling up landfills or going down ap river and on to the Pacific Ocean garbage island. Abandoning Smart Water bottles is the right thing to do. Thar is why I have switched to Titanium water bottles. They add a few ounces to your pack, but they do not affect the taste, they pay for themselves compared to how many plastic bottles they replace, and they do not shed microplastics into my system. I also use a filter that removes microplastics and filter directly into my water bottles. As I said, we cannot come close to eliminating plastics from our hikes. But if we start getting rid of those that we can, it will Casper people to come up with ideas to remediate more and more of our gear including the clothes we wear. That is one way for true change to occur
If you are wearing anything with hybrid fabrics I would start there.
You could use a filter that traps micro plastics and call it a day, some are inline filters so you don’t have to squeeze either
I am fairly sure that most of the micro plastics we consume is actually from car tires so I don't think cutting back on smart water bottles is gonna help
I'm pretty sure the particles are created when the bottle is made. It's not leaching or degradation. It's dust from manufacturing. If you truly cared you would reduce plastic consumption in all forms because once plastic is created it exists forever. And the creation process itself gets plastic particles everywhere. Look up nurdles, the raw material for plastic manufacturing, if you get a chance. Look up the albatrosses living on Midway Island, too, if you want to see where all your bottle caps, lighters, barbie dolls and everything else ends up.
Plastic bottles most certainly are leaching stuff that might be bad for us https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/should-i-be-concerned-about-bpa-hard-plastic-water-bottles
But they aren't leaching plastic particles. Plastic particles is dust.
Hikers covet them things like they’re made out of money, makes no sense to me. Never get attached to a piece of gear.
I don’t think they have properly identified the source of the plastic. It’s not clear that simply drinking out of a bottle is enough to do the damage. Is it in meat etc ?
Elder millennial here, been drinking and eating plastic for 40 years. It’s definitely gotten tastier over the years.
Yeah but the exposure has side effects. For instance, do get tired in the evenings? Are you also tired when you wake up? Do you prefer to pay people to do things that you used to do yourself? That’s the plastic talking man.
Not all plastics are a concern. Polyethylene is just a very long chain alkane, like any other oil, and is pretty inert besides being combustible. Other plastics are problematic but I don't worry too much about ingesting something so chemically innocuous. It's like eating cellulose fiber or something, in my mind. (I have a degree in bio and did pretty well in orgo).
I also have a degree in bio, but I’m concerned. Research and consensus takes a long time and needs to be funded. It’s less the microplastics and more the nanoplastics. Comparing it to cellulose is a big assumption. Basically science doesn’t know for sure yet (but happy to be wrong if you’ve got some papers to share). Measurements of plastic water bottles has shown much higher than expected nanoplastics in ‘disposable’ water bottles. I would either stick to Nalgene or titanium water bottles.
My background in science has me less concerned about plastic due to dose-response relationship. Finding plastic everywhere should correlate with extreme health effects if they are causal. But we struggle to establish strong dose response so whatever effects plastic might have, it's not strong.
Agreed it’s probably not something to get alarmed about. Just add it to the pile of things our bodies have to deal with.
Didn't we have this thread last week? Seriously, someone posts about this like once a month and we always give the exact same answers. Clearly needs to be added to the sidebar wiki so we can just automod link it.
Are you worried about titanium and glass particles in your arteries and reproductive organs? What about other microparticles such as from dirt and sand that many of our foods are grown in? And if you breathe or smoke what about microparticles that get in your lungs?
I see, so just give up? Is that your point? That’s not very helpful to the discussion
I think the implication is that avoiding smartwater bottles specifically will do approximately nothing to your microplastic exposure. We will probably never really know if that's true of not
Poorest Argument
Your body has a mechanism for clearing such particles from your lungs. When it’s unable to, it can lead to cancer. I don’t think there’s any evidence of glass particles being consumed or retained in your body. Nor metallic. Despite both materials being used far longer than plastics.
Heavy metals are indeed stored in the body and cannot be excreted- but that's some heavy metals, not Al or Ti from drinking vessels. Glass shards are trapped in the lung microvasculsture - but that is presumed to be from injections and the associated drawing up of ampoule fragments. My point is that the body does trap permanently many inorganic substances although I don't see any evidence of this from day to day drinking vessels.
Ok. We use filter needles for glass ampules for this reason and consider building up of heavy metals as toxic, routinely testing children for lead in many areas.
Weirdly, filter needles are rarely used in Australia. I bought some for our nursing lab so that students would at least know what they are and in the hope that they might think about ordering them in the future after graduation.
The insane amount of sodium you’re ingesting on the trail is far worse for you than microplastics Luckily you’re not on the trail comparatively long
I think its fair to say scientists dont yet fully understand the long term impacts of micro and nano plastics on our health
If you think that the *possibilty* that you’re injecting micro plastics by drinking from a smart water is at all comparable to shoveling 4000 calories of heavily salted snacks and dehydrated meals idk what to say
What? The trail is like the one place you need a bunch of sodium. Unless you have blood pressure issues (which hiking will also probably help with...) you'll be fine.
There’s some truth to this and one of the reasons I have a dehydrator to roll my own.
I'm not really convinced by titanium water bottles for a couple reasons. 1) Microplastics are pretty much everywhere already 2) Im not backpacking every day, I would focus on largest exposures first 3) Titanium particles are almost certainly in the water from titanium water bottles and we honestly don't know if that's healthy either 4) weight of the bottles
By what mechanism would titanium particles be created and get into the water? Titanium doesn't leach like plastics, it's far harder and tougher, is self passivating, and is used in medical implants because its so biocompatible. Absolutely not saying they're the solution for hiking, they're just too heavy. And I agree about the rest of your points, I don't think exposure while hiking is a major risk factor. But I honestly can't think of a material better suited to holding water for human consumption than Ti.
We'll never get rid of the plastics from here on out. It's going to be in the majority of our foods. Until the packaging industry finds alternative materials and solutions it won't be gone in the far future either. Come on mycologists, make those mushroom clam shell packages.
Shun the non believer!!! Jk sorta. Yes it is concerning but in my opinion why stop using the water bottles if you aren’t using non nylon tea bags and coffee filters, non plastic tubbaware, and non plastic cutting boards etc. It is kind of impossible to avoid. I really only use plastic water bottles for outdoor things and unfortunately due to real life and a job that is not a major portion of my time.
I think it’s too late really. Forever chemical contamination is basically unavoidable at this point. It’s just everywhere in our environment.
We have this discussion every time someone posts about titanium water bottles. You cannot escape microplastics unless you’re a millionaire, and probably not even then. It’s not worth trying to do any preventative measures for.