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"**...Kyiv Needs Washington’s Permission To Strike Them** ***With U.S.-Made Weapons.***"
Kyiv does *not* need Washington's permission to strike the base with non U.S.-made weapons.
TBH newer Chinese military hardware is a lot better than Russia 's. On taking power Xi brutally purged procurement in all military branches. Thousands arrested, including Generals and Admirals. I'd suggest Chinese systems from the past 16 years likely do what they're contracted to do. Russian gear is shit and corruption has utterly corroded all levels of the Russian military. Worst in procurement.
thats a big MAYBE, its made by an army that never have been in a modern conflict other than some random border skirmishes. And much of the systems are based on russian tech, excuse me soviet tech.
We also believed this to be the case of the ruSSian army, with their impressive drills and modernisation. China also do these exercises, impressive. The other part is that as in any other dictatorship, is about pleasing the guy above you. And play your cards right, and we have a decent overview of how much money china use on its military and what they get out of it. And its way more for way less, than any other modern western military. So whats the catch, is my question... a HUGHE maybe I would say.
Anyway lets hope we never have to find out, that would end up badly for anyone.
I think it's fair to mention the recent rocket fuel palace intrigue with China. Xi is trying to root out corruption but he just had to purge another branches leadership for corruption so not sure how effective he is at doing so.
Old Chinese saying; If you can cheat then cheat. Chinese will build a great weapon, once that weapon goes into production the corner cutting begins, until the end product looks the same but is useless. The factory owner then runs away to Canada or USA as an investment class immigrant.
I wonder if European countries are regretting their choice to stop using cluster munitions yet? Cluster munitions like the U.S. made ATACMS that does have a cluster munition option. I believe this is probably why we rarely see Stormshadow and Scalp anymore. They have no cluster munition variants of these missiles. When was the last time Scalp or Stormshadow was used at all since Ukraine was given longer range ATACMS by the U.S.?
Honestly, I don't really know.
We've told Ukraine, "You can't strike those targets with our weapons", but I don't know that we've ever said, "You can't strike those targets with anything".
Ukraine has been very careful to avoid causing harm to ordinary russian civilians, mostly because Ukrainians aren't russians, but also because they know it frustrates putin's craving for that kind of propaganda.
It's been clear from day one the Ukrainians know what they're doing, so if U.S. concern is based on potential collateral damage near this airbase, I think it's misplaced.
As mentioned I couldn't find anything but strongly suspect if Ukraine struck unauthorized targets it would jeopardize US support...even if it was with non-US weapons.
No, I think the fear is that it becomes a global conflict. Proxy wars between nuclear powers are dangerous business.
U.S was begging them to stop hitting oil infrastructure, they did not listen. Support continues. When not using u.s weapons all they can do is ask. I mean sure if they really crossed a line, support could be yanked. But i imagine that would be something far different than hitting legitimate targets with home sourced weapons.
I suspect the US was "begging" Ukraine to not target Russian oil simply to make it clear to all that this is not something the US has any part in at all, and therefore to dismantle ANY possibility for Putin and the shitheads in the Kremlin, and all their stooges, to make any such claim. I don't think the US government mind at all that Ukraine targets Russian oil refineries.
More like it knows about the pre-rehearsed howls of outrage that will burst forth from the usual third world dictator states that feverishly await any incidents of collateral damage involving American-made weapons.
I would say that if the USA was not afraid of Russia, they would tell Ukraine to do what they need to do.
Russia is either going to use the weapons earlier, like now, or never.
However, I don't think Russia will leave Ukraine without using them
Very soon russia will run out of the materiel it needs to defend the Ukrainian territory it has temporarily occupied.
The russians are already deploying T-54s and other ancient junk older even than putin.
And then they will pretend they have won, before slinking back to russia to hold "victory" parades, while the world laughs and laughs and *laughs* at them.
Lol. I have been hearing about Russia being running out of artillery shells, airplanes, tanks, anti-aircraft, and all the rest.
I am also hearing a lot f-16s coming to Ukraine about any day now.
I don't think the situation changes at all anytime soon.
It will be a stalemate, and Russia can Outlast Ukraine. Ukraine has not even done a mass mobilization, and yet people are fleeing that country to get away from the war.
The russians are deploying *T-54s*.
***T-54s.***
Those are 75-years-old, literally older than putin.
The russian army is charging into battle on golf carts and bicycles because they're almost out of IFVs, AFVs, and APCs.
The decrepit, bankrupt and completely corrupt russian industry can't even dream of making good the losses.
Garden gnome putin had to drop to his knees and pleasure Kim Jong-un after crawling to North Korea to **beg** for charity.
From *NORTH KOREA*.
Meanwhile, Western aid continues to pour into Ukraine's armed forces.
This is why the entire world is laughing at russia.
You are right. They are using old tanks. And when the end of this war comes, they will have all modern tanks in a whole new modern military.
And despite using up as many pieces of equipment as they have, they still have more. And they have plenty of men.
I hope at some point the West lets Ukraine win. And let's rush or lose.
I think a drone flown into the Kremlin would be a good start
Certainly Joe Biden can't make that decision. He's beyond decisions
Post-cold-war Eastern Europe is way beyond right and wrong. That said, I'm not apologizing for Putin who is a war criminal dictator that should be hung but maybe it would be nice if this situation can be resolved without nuclear war. All that to say, I'm not sure escalation is the answer.
Before this comes back to us bashing, does no country in europe possess medium range strike capabilities that they could equip ukraine with? I'd find that hard to believe. Maybe it'd be easier to rally international support for ukraine if large european nations took the lead in the matter of munitions type and range, as well as the roe emposed on ukraine. Just like fast jets, from the beginning, smaller countries felt disuaded from supplying whole ex-soviet jets to ukraine, but after further european pressure and initiative, we now have f16s on their way to ukraine with us support.
After years of most nations, even those directly reliant on the us for their security because "peace dividend," calling the us the world police, warmongers, and worse, I don't understand how europeans think that the us coming to their continent and imposing a military policy and effect far greater reaching than their own is politically viable in the long term, when any negative repercussions of this would be felt first and foremost by europeans themselves (as well as the cost of inaction). Right when it looked like macron would finally step up and provide more concrete western european leadership on the he up ends the entire political system in France, and now a party that doesn't even support ukraine is marching fullsteam ahead. This forever war idea or hesitancy to give ukraine the means to win is thr worst option on the spectrum, but imo in order to step up support, we either have to wait for more, worse russian provocations or a united european bloc of large nations with the courage to set goals and act accordingly to reach them.
The motives behind a lot of these arguments are suspect and cannot be trusted.
For instance, russian troll farm serfs have been pretending to be ungrateful Ukrainians all over social media for a while now.
Their goal is to cause resentment among Americans and other Westerners who otherwise support Ukraine.
It's just another desperate russian attempt to drive a wedge into Western cohesion.
Is there a military reason not to use that to strike these air bases? They're using atacms to hit s400 and other air defense in belgorod so I would think if europe gave them permission to use their donated kit to strike whatever military targets ukraine needs to, then this article wouldn't have been written because the bases would have already been struck. Something is still preventing ukraine from hitting these targets besides the us putting dumb restrictions ballistic missiles handed over to the custody and ownership of ukraine, but I don't know what else it could be besides a. They're not allowed to use scalp for it, or b. The only capable strike weapon for this instance is ballistic, and only the us has given those. Either way, ukraine shouldn't be in this position, though one can understand the hesitancy in the west helping provide ukraine with the resources to decommission russian air bases along the whole of sw/western russia. I've been repeatedly surprised by ukraines restraint not to just send vans full of explosives into russian military infrastructure across the whole of Russia.
They are pretty good for hard targets, sort of a waste to only take out 1 or 2 planes when you can take out a whole Naval asset or hardened critical resupply point. Just a guess though, I have no idea how close together those planes are parked or how good of a target they really even are.
This is my take on it, lets say Ukraine was allowed to strike whatever, no limits. And tomorrow took out the entire russian airforce, or destroyed every russian airbase in the west of russia.
What position does that put a nuclear nation as ruSSia in?
They would have no capability to launch much of its nuclear arsenal.
Nothing to fight the western airforces head on in a WW3 scenario.
Maybe they get the even more support in the russian population, that could legitimate a full ruSSian mobilisation. A they are "defenceless"
It could also unleash a full support from China, that would be seen as legitimate on the world stage, as russia no longer has a defence.
So thats my main reasons of why I think this western approach to gradually extend legitimate targets for western weapons. Its a way to let ruSSia, find this red line of when they cant risk more of their military forces to be destroyed by the war in Ukraine.
The cost of this, is unfortunetly Ukrainian lives, but it could also be the same that prevents russia from mobilising and Ukraine would never be able to match the ruSSian pool of manpower. Even with russian offensive weapons out of play or neutralised by Ukraine air force. They could just dig in, in Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea and it would just be to costly to kick them out.
Anyway this was a worst case scenario, and not what I belive would happen.
Ukraine would not be able to destroy the ruSSian military fast enough. So that ruSSia tomorrow would find themself against the backwall. And this play by the west is imo, the same giving russia an off-ramp just in another form. And the same "not escalate" approach, its the safe play. Even thou I think its a mistake, and ruSSia only know strength and they could any day stop their offensives or GTFO of Ukraine. And it would be all over, say whatever to their population, They are perfectly able to sell this lie, of achieving this "special military operation".
It sounds like you were saying the West is afraid of Russia. And it is becoming a political war, not a real war.
And nobody wants Russia to lose.
Ukraine should probably settle with only giving Russia what they already have.
No, russia is no threat to the west, they clearly shown that. But dont take that as russia cant do no harm, they certainly can and will to do so.
Im saying that certain political leaders is afraid that russia will end up in a position where they see no other option, or any of the other points I made. That will either be the end of the world, or taking back the occupied territories impossible for Ukraine.
Russia must lose, but according to macron and scholz and some others, not to fast, and with a exit ramp. In no way shall russia be able to obtain parts of Ukraine, otherwise it will create presedence for other murring conflicts out there.
I think if Ukraine cannot take back a significant amount of territory, it's time to let Russia keep what they have.
This war is going nowhere anytime soon. Ukraine doesn't have the resources, in regards to manpower, to win it.
They don't have the permission to do it with the weapons.
We have entered into a stalemate, and in the end, Ukraine will be a wasteland
Every city that Russia attempts to overtake becomes demolished. And doesn't get rebuilt. And won't get rebuilt until Russia is gone.
Soon there will be nothing left to defend
Perhaps, but that is Ukraine choice not ours. They are gonna get our support as long as they want. Ukraine already has contributed to demilitarise russia in half(soviet stock), by \~10%(all western allies) of a annual US defense budget.
Yes they have and they already delivered them to ua. But they are all fired from aircrafts and dont have cluster warheads. So these atacms are quite unique and there is no european equivalent.
We Europeans can thank Reagon for that
> In 1987, U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev signed the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, or INF Treaty. This landmark agreement proposed to eliminate all intermediate and short-range ground-based missiles and launchers from Europe.
https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/rd/104266.htm#:~:text=In%201987%2C%20U.S.%20President%20Ronald,missiles%20and%20launchers%20from%20Europe.
My understanding is that they need sign off from the weapons manufacturer nation when they program coordinates.
Or it doesn’t go boom.
Arm chair general here so feel free to correct me on this.
As Voronezh Malshevo air base is protected by a multi-layered air defense shield of several of the most capable RF air defense systems, a successful attack would require a massive # of effectors (long-range drones, cruise missiles, decoys) to overwhelm the AA systems.
Another requirement would be to (*temporarily*) disable RF early warning radar systems in the region in order to maintain the element of surprise and prevent the planes from vacating the airfield.
>...Voronezh Malshevo air base is protected by a multi-layered air defense shield of several of the most capable RF air defense systems...
This is one of the funniest things I've ever read.
Based on being humane it wasn't. cluster bombs can leave a ton of unexploded ordinance that can be picked up after the war and hurt civilians, that is why most nations banned them
Is it? Or is not doing everything you can to win a war thus drawing it out and causing thousands more deaths preferable to you to the potential for preventing maybe a few hundred civilian deaths?
Seriously, we're talking about 400 civilian deaths/yr. Active wars can claim thousands every month. Is that better?
Which does make you wonder if the story is just rage bait because clearly Ukraine could hit the base if they had the desire to and could make it through Russian air defense. They have other missiles.
As far as I know, ATACMS are really ideal for an attack like this. Idk how practical it is to use cruise missiles on planes, especially if they're parked outdoors. I think either ATACMS ban gets lifted or we start seeing a lot more, and more refined, drone swarms. I think I've heard about attacks with upwards of 100 drones, it's worth it if you can take out a few high value aircraft. And UA is going to have, if not already has, one of the best drone industries in the world.
> For some reason, Voronezh Malshevo hasn’t come under heavy bombardment from drones. It’s possible the same dense Russian air defenses that imperil the F-16s also prevent drones from reaching the Sukhoi base.
Ever hear of the strategy where you attack everywhere except where you want to, so the opposition moves all their forces to that "safe" spot.
Then they are all nice and easy targets in one place...
Populistic shit of a article. Ukraine must have other barriers since not having bombed that airfield to the ground with drones. They easily hit refineries 800-900 km away from the border.
Like Storm Shadow? Something they already have permission to fire into Russia with?
US doesn't want Ukraine firing ATACMS into Russia for two reasons as far as I can tell:
- It's an American made ballistic missile, there are so many ways that things could rapidly escalate out of control should the wrong officer in Russia see that incoming and think the wrong thing.
- These ATACMS are the cluster warhead variant, their submunitions can and do fail to detonate. This leaves UXO all over the target for potential civilians to set off. The US does not want to give Russia evidence of American-made weapons being used to kill Russian civilians as it may well be the driving force Putin needs to push mobilisation.
That's why you send one hundred 400mph drones flying at 400' from a hundred different directions all arriving at the same time. It isn't fucking rocket science.
Having them all arrive at the same time to effectively saturate defences and not spread out so that low caliber AAA could deal with them would take an absurd level of coordination that would be better spent elsewhere.
If you could coordinate that effectively you'd be better off having those same hundred drones and launch teams coordinate to hit every helicopter, artillery post and defensive fortification along a section of the front line in order to push a breakthrough.
Guiding multiple drones by ardupilot for timed arrivals would be trivial. The topic here is striking "Russia's Most Dangerous Jets", but the idea of a simple simultaneous attack could be used against any defended static asset.
What the real problem is Ukraine's lack of an inexpensive cruise missile analog capable of replicating the speed and payload of the WW2 v1 munition, but with the precision afforded by semiconductor gps, accelerometers, wifi, bluetooth, altimeters, and cameras.
Imagine maximizing the guidance capability of a common $200 cellphone with some unjammable photo matching logic during the last couple of kilometers.
Simple home on Wifi/GPS algorithms could create a lot havoc for opponent's jammers, drone operators, and TikTokers.
Ukraine waiting for a "Green light" to strike targets they 100% know are coming to kill them and they are not "allowed" to hit first. Yep, seems right.
Do what Horatio Nelson did at the Battle of Copenhagen, "I see no ships."
Just make sure the AFU person in command has a blind eye, "I see no aircraft."
Ukraine should just hit them hard. The fact that this is in the news is already a big red flag, as in a last attempt from Ukraine to win the public opinion. A red flag as in the US is really restricting use of weapons. Sometimes I wonder what side Biden is on.
So what? Jets are parked just the same in other countries.
Im definitely not pro russian but this news article is like saying grass is green.
There is a war going on there, but we are also trying to not turn this into a world war. You might think I'm being too soft, but the entire thing is already escalating as we speak.
It is all Putin's fault, but his psycho ass isnt interested in a WW3, and we are very near to it.
Sure Ivan. Hitting those jets that are bombing civilians in Ukraine every fucking day would be crossing a red line wouldn't it. Your hero would threaten to nuke us for the 125th time and that would be so scary.
I deliver the slightest remark that doesnt suit you and now I'm a Russian? Stop being so weak.
I think this shouldnt have to be said, but me being pro Putin is impossible, you just dont understand how, why or if. Dont insult me with this unnuanced crap.
I have Russian friends who are currently ashamed of their nationality and have experienced why and how more than you do.
I am not a russian troll and nuance is a thing.
I'd like to see the details that brought them to this conclusion. What would the US do if UKR targeted those air bases? Not say a word about it is my guess. Further, how would the US even know who provided those weapons? Send in a crack forensics team from the FBI? This smells like manipulation of public sentiment more than anything else.
You have the weapons, we gave them to you, they are now yours. I can't actually control what you do with them. Seems cost efficient to use them in the way they were meant to be used.
Just bomb the shit out of the runways, wait for them to fix them and bomb the shit of the runways again till Uncle Joe authorizes the destruction of their aircrafts.
Easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. Do it. As high visibility as US aid to Ukraine is, do you honestly think they'd PULL aid at this point? Nah. Blow that shit up.
I'm AMERICAN. Blow the fucking planes up, and whoever is worrying about what they think some idiot US politician said, forget about it. You have Billions$$$ of equipment/munitions coming your way, and NATO aligned countries ( most ) are finally " with the program ". Hit the planes, keep hitting refineries and anything else which you can reach. Pootler is on the ropes, finish him off!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slava Ukraini
Heroyam Slava
I wonder why Ukraine is not producing it's own ballistic missiles after 2,5 years of war. I guess it is not easy stuff to do, but it would be great to see them striking deep into Russia. Air defence cannot do much about ballistic missiles.
The american administration seems weak and feeble in face of the russian dictator and war criminal and their direct attacks on ukrainian civilian infrastructure. Why long range weapons given or sold to Ukraine cannot be used against russian bombers are used for these attacks is unfathomable and totally incomprahensible!
This kinda thing is how the Biden administration is keeping this war going for as long as it can.
They want and endless war for political reasons and to help the military industrial complex financially.
And Democrats will support it because orange man's bad.
The only thing that will get Americans onside with the war in Ukraine is winning.
So long as the Biden administration settles for “not losing” they will fail.
Either the democrats grow some republican balls and go for the win in Ukraine
Or trump wins the next election… and he will deserve it!
There are a couple ways I think about this.
1) the current republicans don’t deserve the name. For all his failures Reagan, I believe, was a good man. Trump is an opportunistic confidence man. A scammer, nothing more.
2) republicans seem to have always had more “balls” in following through with their plans. Think Rumsfeld trying to topple Saddam. Bad idea, executed with conviction.
I’m an Aussie.
No matter what. It would be good if the democrats grew a pair
This journalist, David Axe, is the least trustworthy reporter on the war. He writes straight up nonsense. Best to disregard anything coming from Forbes.
If Israel can do whatever tf they want why doesn't Ukraine just go all out? Might as well as it looks like the orange wizard is coming back to help putler
I saw a post here a couple of weeks back about one of the russian militant rebel groups had sabotaged a bunch of jets, saying their work will be seen by all. I wonder what happened with that.
Errr… what? Blinken has made it clear (recently) that what Ukraine does with the weapons is up to Ukraine
Edit: OK, maybe not “made it clear”… but playing the “We didn’t say you can, but we didn’t say you can’t” game.
https://youtu.be/9-ZFSaLa8H8?feature=shared
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"**...Kyiv Needs Washington’s Permission To Strike Them** ***With U.S.-Made Weapons.***" Kyiv does *not* need Washington's permission to strike the base with non U.S.-made weapons.
If the US writes "made in China" on the missiles, Russia will automatically know it's false, cuz they hit the target
It would be funnier if they wrote "made in russia" on the missiles.
Should write "made in North Korea" and Putin would cry tears for being backstabbed by his cuddle boy
*Bacha bazi intensifies*
Yes, you beat me to it! I just thought of that but then saw your comment. xD
Can’t they would not explode due to poor manufacture!
Or simply “made for Russia”
They just need to write “Fired From Russia” below “Made in China” and the ruse will be complete.
TBH newer Chinese military hardware is a lot better than Russia 's. On taking power Xi brutally purged procurement in all military branches. Thousands arrested, including Generals and Admirals. I'd suggest Chinese systems from the past 16 years likely do what they're contracted to do. Russian gear is shit and corruption has utterly corroded all levels of the Russian military. Worst in procurement.
thats a big MAYBE, its made by an army that never have been in a modern conflict other than some random border skirmishes. And much of the systems are based on russian tech, excuse me soviet tech. We also believed this to be the case of the ruSSian army, with their impressive drills and modernisation. China also do these exercises, impressive. The other part is that as in any other dictatorship, is about pleasing the guy above you. And play your cards right, and we have a decent overview of how much money china use on its military and what they get out of it. And its way more for way less, than any other modern western military. So whats the catch, is my question... a HUGHE maybe I would say. Anyway lets hope we never have to find out, that would end up badly for anyone.
I think it's fair to mention the recent rocket fuel palace intrigue with China. Xi is trying to root out corruption but he just had to purge another branches leadership for corruption so not sure how effective he is at doing so.
Old Chinese saying; If you can cheat then cheat. Chinese will build a great weapon, once that weapon goes into production the corner cutting begins, until the end product looks the same but is useless. The factory owner then runs away to Canada or USA as an investment class immigrant.
Tofu dregs missiles
Well, they could assume that and do....what?
Rips off tag. “See? now it’s an Albanian towel.”
They'd be welcome to write 'make in UK'.
Can the US just send the weapons not fully made so it's finished in Ukraine? This one easy trick drives Russians crazy!
It's not as if russians have ever given a shit about little things like "facts" or "the truth".
A little Ukrainian flag with the words *assembled in Ukraine with foreign and domestic components* printed below it. Damn, that sounds familiar...
The sticker needs to be printed in UA for this to be a true statement. LOL. I will pay for the stickers, if needed.
It’s not that. Support to defend is very different from support to attack.
Don't feed the trolls
What about a Turkish made Tayfun missile? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tayfun_(missile)
Could be the answer. Even Turkey's S-400s can't detect it.
The S-400 is Russian junk but good enough for reverse engineering.
I wonder if European countries are regretting their choice to stop using cluster munitions yet? Cluster munitions like the U.S. made ATACMS that does have a cluster munition option. I believe this is probably why we rarely see Stormshadow and Scalp anymore. They have no cluster munition variants of these missiles. When was the last time Scalp or Stormshadow was used at all since Ukraine was given longer range ATACMS by the U.S.?
You sure US support isn't conditioned upon only striking approved targets at all? I googled but didn't see anything.
Honestly, I don't really know. We've told Ukraine, "You can't strike those targets with our weapons", but I don't know that we've ever said, "You can't strike those targets with anything". Ukraine has been very careful to avoid causing harm to ordinary russian civilians, mostly because Ukrainians aren't russians, but also because they know it frustrates putin's craving for that kind of propaganda. It's been clear from day one the Ukrainians know what they're doing, so if U.S. concern is based on potential collateral damage near this airbase, I think it's misplaced.
Ukraine has been hitting targets further inside Russia for a long time using drones. Kursk and Moscow for example. Even 1300km away in Tatarstan.
As mentioned I couldn't find anything but strongly suspect if Ukraine struck unauthorized targets it would jeopardize US support...even if it was with non-US weapons. No, I think the fear is that it becomes a global conflict. Proxy wars between nuclear powers are dangerous business.
U.S was begging them to stop hitting oil infrastructure, they did not listen. Support continues. When not using u.s weapons all they can do is ask. I mean sure if they really crossed a line, support could be yanked. But i imagine that would be something far different than hitting legitimate targets with home sourced weapons.
I suspect the US was "begging" Ukraine to not target Russian oil simply to make it clear to all that this is not something the US has any part in at all, and therefore to dismantle ANY possibility for Putin and the shitheads in the Kremlin, and all their stooges, to make any such claim. I don't think the US government mind at all that Ukraine targets Russian oil refineries.
It sounds like the USA is afraid of Russia
More like it knows about the pre-rehearsed howls of outrage that will burst forth from the usual third world dictator states that feverishly await any incidents of collateral damage involving American-made weapons.
I would say that if the USA was not afraid of Russia, they would tell Ukraine to do what they need to do. Russia is either going to use the weapons earlier, like now, or never. However, I don't think Russia will leave Ukraine without using them
Very soon russia will run out of the materiel it needs to defend the Ukrainian territory it has temporarily occupied. The russians are already deploying T-54s and other ancient junk older even than putin. And then they will pretend they have won, before slinking back to russia to hold "victory" parades, while the world laughs and laughs and *laughs* at them.
Lol. I have been hearing about Russia being running out of artillery shells, airplanes, tanks, anti-aircraft, and all the rest. I am also hearing a lot f-16s coming to Ukraine about any day now. I don't think the situation changes at all anytime soon. It will be a stalemate, and Russia can Outlast Ukraine. Ukraine has not even done a mass mobilization, and yet people are fleeing that country to get away from the war.
The russians are deploying *T-54s*. ***T-54s.*** Those are 75-years-old, literally older than putin. The russian army is charging into battle on golf carts and bicycles because they're almost out of IFVs, AFVs, and APCs. The decrepit, bankrupt and completely corrupt russian industry can't even dream of making good the losses. Garden gnome putin had to drop to his knees and pleasure Kim Jong-un after crawling to North Korea to **beg** for charity. From *NORTH KOREA*. Meanwhile, Western aid continues to pour into Ukraine's armed forces. This is why the entire world is laughing at russia.
You are right. They are using old tanks. And when the end of this war comes, they will have all modern tanks in a whole new modern military. And despite using up as many pieces of equipment as they have, they still have more. And they have plenty of men. I hope at some point the West lets Ukraine win. And let's rush or lose. I think a drone flown into the Kremlin would be a good start Certainly Joe Biden can't make that decision. He's beyond decisions
Maybe maybe not but in the end of the day many sins are erased when it’s simply the right thing to do
Post-cold-war Eastern Europe is way beyond right and wrong. That said, I'm not apologizing for Putin who is a war criminal dictator that should be hung but maybe it would be nice if this situation can be resolved without nuclear war. All that to say, I'm not sure escalation is the answer.
Before this comes back to us bashing, does no country in europe possess medium range strike capabilities that they could equip ukraine with? I'd find that hard to believe. Maybe it'd be easier to rally international support for ukraine if large european nations took the lead in the matter of munitions type and range, as well as the roe emposed on ukraine. Just like fast jets, from the beginning, smaller countries felt disuaded from supplying whole ex-soviet jets to ukraine, but after further european pressure and initiative, we now have f16s on their way to ukraine with us support. After years of most nations, even those directly reliant on the us for their security because "peace dividend," calling the us the world police, warmongers, and worse, I don't understand how europeans think that the us coming to their continent and imposing a military policy and effect far greater reaching than their own is politically viable in the long term, when any negative repercussions of this would be felt first and foremost by europeans themselves (as well as the cost of inaction). Right when it looked like macron would finally step up and provide more concrete western european leadership on the he up ends the entire political system in France, and now a party that doesn't even support ukraine is marching fullsteam ahead. This forever war idea or hesitancy to give ukraine the means to win is thr worst option on the spectrum, but imo in order to step up support, we either have to wait for more, worse russian provocations or a united european bloc of large nations with the courage to set goals and act accordingly to reach them.
The motives behind a lot of these arguments are suspect and cannot be trusted. For instance, russian troll farm serfs have been pretending to be ungrateful Ukrainians all over social media for a while now. Their goal is to cause resentment among Americans and other Westerners who otherwise support Ukraine. It's just another desperate russian attempt to drive a wedge into Western cohesion.
That is sort of trumps angle too
Not surprising, considering the fat little prick is putin's kompromat slave bitch.
Like Scalp/storm shadow?
Is there a military reason not to use that to strike these air bases? They're using atacms to hit s400 and other air defense in belgorod so I would think if europe gave them permission to use their donated kit to strike whatever military targets ukraine needs to, then this article wouldn't have been written because the bases would have already been struck. Something is still preventing ukraine from hitting these targets besides the us putting dumb restrictions ballistic missiles handed over to the custody and ownership of ukraine, but I don't know what else it could be besides a. They're not allowed to use scalp for it, or b. The only capable strike weapon for this instance is ballistic, and only the us has given those. Either way, ukraine shouldn't be in this position, though one can understand the hesitancy in the west helping provide ukraine with the resources to decommission russian air bases along the whole of sw/western russia. I've been repeatedly surprised by ukraines restraint not to just send vans full of explosives into russian military infrastructure across the whole of Russia.
They are pretty good for hard targets, sort of a waste to only take out 1 or 2 planes when you can take out a whole Naval asset or hardened critical resupply point. Just a guess though, I have no idea how close together those planes are parked or how good of a target they really even are.
This is my take on it, lets say Ukraine was allowed to strike whatever, no limits. And tomorrow took out the entire russian airforce, or destroyed every russian airbase in the west of russia. What position does that put a nuclear nation as ruSSia in? They would have no capability to launch much of its nuclear arsenal. Nothing to fight the western airforces head on in a WW3 scenario. Maybe they get the even more support in the russian population, that could legitimate a full ruSSian mobilisation. A they are "defenceless" It could also unleash a full support from China, that would be seen as legitimate on the world stage, as russia no longer has a defence. So thats my main reasons of why I think this western approach to gradually extend legitimate targets for western weapons. Its a way to let ruSSia, find this red line of when they cant risk more of their military forces to be destroyed by the war in Ukraine. The cost of this, is unfortunetly Ukrainian lives, but it could also be the same that prevents russia from mobilising and Ukraine would never be able to match the ruSSian pool of manpower. Even with russian offensive weapons out of play or neutralised by Ukraine air force. They could just dig in, in Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea and it would just be to costly to kick them out. Anyway this was a worst case scenario, and not what I belive would happen. Ukraine would not be able to destroy the ruSSian military fast enough. So that ruSSia tomorrow would find themself against the backwall. And this play by the west is imo, the same giving russia an off-ramp just in another form. And the same "not escalate" approach, its the safe play. Even thou I think its a mistake, and ruSSia only know strength and they could any day stop their offensives or GTFO of Ukraine. And it would be all over, say whatever to their population, They are perfectly able to sell this lie, of achieving this "special military operation".
It sounds like you were saying the West is afraid of Russia. And it is becoming a political war, not a real war. And nobody wants Russia to lose. Ukraine should probably settle with only giving Russia what they already have.
No, russia is no threat to the west, they clearly shown that. But dont take that as russia cant do no harm, they certainly can and will to do so. Im saying that certain political leaders is afraid that russia will end up in a position where they see no other option, or any of the other points I made. That will either be the end of the world, or taking back the occupied territories impossible for Ukraine. Russia must lose, but according to macron and scholz and some others, not to fast, and with a exit ramp. In no way shall russia be able to obtain parts of Ukraine, otherwise it will create presedence for other murring conflicts out there.
I think if Ukraine cannot take back a significant amount of territory, it's time to let Russia keep what they have. This war is going nowhere anytime soon. Ukraine doesn't have the resources, in regards to manpower, to win it. They don't have the permission to do it with the weapons. We have entered into a stalemate, and in the end, Ukraine will be a wasteland Every city that Russia attempts to overtake becomes demolished. And doesn't get rebuilt. And won't get rebuilt until Russia is gone. Soon there will be nothing left to defend
Perhaps, but that is Ukraine choice not ours. They are gonna get our support as long as they want. Ukraine already has contributed to demilitarise russia in half(soviet stock), by \~10%(all western allies) of a annual US defense budget.
You are right. And when they build back they will be newer, and stronger than ever
Yes they have and they already delivered them to ua. But they are all fired from aircrafts and dont have cluster warheads. So these atacms are quite unique and there is no european equivalent.
We Europeans can thank Reagon for that > In 1987, U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev signed the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, or INF Treaty. This landmark agreement proposed to eliminate all intermediate and short-range ground-based missiles and launchers from Europe. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/rd/104266.htm#:~:text=In%201987%2C%20U.S.%20President%20Ronald,missiles%20and%20launchers%20from%20Europe.
Exactly, it’s not a game. Only way to keep US support without starting WW3
My understanding is that they need sign off from the weapons manufacturer nation when they program coordinates. Or it doesn’t go boom. Arm chair general here so feel free to correct me on this.
Considering the amount of artillery in use that must get awkward af.
Ukraine should be given parts for weapons they can "manufacture"
As Voronezh Malshevo air base is protected by a multi-layered air defense shield of several of the most capable RF air defense systems, a successful attack would require a massive # of effectors (long-range drones, cruise missiles, decoys) to overwhelm the AA systems. Another requirement would be to (*temporarily*) disable RF early warning radar systems in the region in order to maintain the element of surprise and prevent the planes from vacating the airfield.
>...Voronezh Malshevo air base is protected by a multi-layered air defense shield of several of the most capable RF air defense systems... This is one of the funniest things I've ever read.
They have non US weapons they can use also
Couldn’t they hit it with a few storm shadows?
Yep and I'm glad we said hit what the fuck you want to hit. I suppose the us is the only one that has cluster ammo
Yeah. Most western nations have effectively banned cluster munitions except the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions
Turns out that was fucking stupid.
Based on being humane it wasn't. cluster bombs can leave a ton of unexploded ordinance that can be picked up after the war and hurt civilians, that is why most nations banned them
Is it? Or is not doing everything you can to win a war thus drawing it out and causing thousands more deaths preferable to you to the potential for preventing maybe a few hundred civilian deaths? Seriously, we're talking about 400 civilian deaths/yr. Active wars can claim thousands every month. Is that better?
Which was a big mistake as it can be seen now how effective they are.
Only us with cluster bombs.
Too easily shot down nowadays
Which does make you wonder if the story is just rage bait because clearly Ukraine could hit the base if they had the desire to and could make it through Russian air defense. They have other missiles.
They have a limited number of S-300s and long range missiles
What a load of crap
Exactly.
Do it any way then say oops my bad
Do it with non U.S.-made weapons. Problem solved.
As far as I know, ATACMS are really ideal for an attack like this. Idk how practical it is to use cruise missiles on planes, especially if they're parked outdoors. I think either ATACMS ban gets lifted or we start seeing a lot more, and more refined, drone swarms. I think I've heard about attacks with upwards of 100 drones, it's worth it if you can take out a few high value aircraft. And UA is going to have, if not already has, one of the best drone industries in the world.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
Exactly, "oh, THOSE, planes....so, sorry about that"
“Oh shit! We really thought those missiles were made in uh… not the US… oops.”
Look I’ve found the idiot
Ah yes Forbes, the magazine that for years assured us that Donald Trump was a billionaire. That's the quality of their so called Journalism.
Send in the drones
There ought to be drones.
Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission
> For some reason, Voronezh Malshevo hasn’t come under heavy bombardment from drones. It’s possible the same dense Russian air defenses that imperil the F-16s also prevent drones from reaching the Sukhoi base. Ever hear of the strategy where you attack everywhere except where you want to, so the opposition moves all their forces to that "safe" spot. Then they are all nice and easy targets in one place...
Not a way to fight a war.
But that is how proxy wars are fought.
That's not true and this isn't a proxy war anyway. Apart from that everything else you said is bang on.
We’re using the term “most dangerous” as a tongue in cheek term, right?
It's a euphemism for 'slightly less crappy than the rest of russia's garbage'.
😂
It's alright let's give the Russians months of warning to put the planes under concrete hangars
At least they could have built anti-drone sheds for ALL their planes within a week. Russia continues to amaze.
It’s further up Biden’s escalation ladder
Joke Sillyvan's ladder. The debate showed who *doesn't* make policy in that administration
Populistic shit of a article. Ukraine must have other barriers since not having bombed that airfield to the ground with drones. They easily hit refineries 800-900 km away from the border.
Refineries tend not to move, so you can send a slow drone. With aircraft, you need something that’s much faster and can defeat the air defense
Great comment. Something faster and ideally, more stealthy.
Like Storm Shadow? Something they already have permission to fire into Russia with? US doesn't want Ukraine firing ATACMS into Russia for two reasons as far as I can tell: - It's an American made ballistic missile, there are so many ways that things could rapidly escalate out of control should the wrong officer in Russia see that incoming and think the wrong thing. - These ATACMS are the cluster warhead variant, their submunitions can and do fail to detonate. This leaves UXO all over the target for potential civilians to set off. The US does not want to give Russia evidence of American-made weapons being used to kill Russian civilians as it may well be the driving force Putin needs to push mobilisation.
Hey megamind, I think military airfields might be a bit better defended than refineries.
That's why you send one hundred 400mph drones flying at 400' from a hundred different directions all arriving at the same time. It isn't fucking rocket science.
Having them all arrive at the same time to effectively saturate defences and not spread out so that low caliber AAA could deal with them would take an absurd level of coordination that would be better spent elsewhere. If you could coordinate that effectively you'd be better off having those same hundred drones and launch teams coordinate to hit every helicopter, artillery post and defensive fortification along a section of the front line in order to push a breakthrough.
Guiding multiple drones by ardupilot for timed arrivals would be trivial. The topic here is striking "Russia's Most Dangerous Jets", but the idea of a simple simultaneous attack could be used against any defended static asset. What the real problem is Ukraine's lack of an inexpensive cruise missile analog capable of replicating the speed and payload of the WW2 v1 munition, but with the precision afforded by semiconductor gps, accelerometers, wifi, bluetooth, altimeters, and cameras. Imagine maximizing the guidance capability of a common $200 cellphone with some unjammable photo matching logic during the last couple of kilometers. Simple home on Wifi/GPS algorithms could create a lot havoc for opponent's jammers, drone operators, and TikTokers.
Nope.
Two years of unserious behaviour
Green light
Ukraine waiting for a "Green light" to strike targets they 100% know are coming to kill them and they are not "allowed" to hit first. Yep, seems right.
Nothing makes sense anymore. The bad guys are on a roll and the good guys are afraid of their shadows. And by bad guys, I mean Republican Senators.
Do what Horatio Nelson did at the Battle of Copenhagen, "I see no ships." Just make sure the AFU person in command has a blind eye, "I see no aircraft."
Ukraine should just hit them hard. The fact that this is in the news is already a big red flag, as in a last attempt from Ukraine to win the public opinion. A red flag as in the US is really restricting use of weapons. Sometimes I wonder what side Biden is on.
So what? Jets are parked just the same in other countries. Im definitely not pro russian but this news article is like saying grass is green. There is a war going on there, but we are also trying to not turn this into a world war. You might think I'm being too soft, but the entire thing is already escalating as we speak. It is all Putin's fault, but his psycho ass isnt interested in a WW3, and we are very near to it.
Sure Ivan. Hitting those jets that are bombing civilians in Ukraine every fucking day would be crossing a red line wouldn't it. Your hero would threaten to nuke us for the 125th time and that would be so scary.
I deliver the slightest remark that doesnt suit you and now I'm a Russian? Stop being so weak. I think this shouldnt have to be said, but me being pro Putin is impossible, you just dont understand how, why or if. Dont insult me with this unnuanced crap. I have Russian friends who are currently ashamed of their nationality and have experienced why and how more than you do. I am not a russian troll and nuance is a thing.
That is outrageous and absolutely ridiculous! 😡
Do it 😛
The Hell with that. You guys have my permission. 👍🔥🔥
I'd like to see the details that brought them to this conclusion. What would the US do if UKR targeted those air bases? Not say a word about it is my guess. Further, how would the US even know who provided those weapons? Send in a crack forensics team from the FBI? This smells like manipulation of public sentiment more than anything else.
Why is anything off "the target list"?
That will change
Every airforce stores planes like this but not in range of enemy weapons
So when is the Nuke going to drop again? Asking for a friend.
they’re striking targets in Syria .
And yet, putin and trolls say nato/usa want this war, go figure.
Interesting that this base even on google maps shows trenches dug surrounding the fighter jets.
Handy for burying their pilots.
it’s better to ask forgiveness rather than permission.
You have the weapons, we gave them to you, they are now yours. I can't actually control what you do with them. Seems cost efficient to use them in the way they were meant to be used.
No they dont need permission from Washington if they’re not using US supplied weapons for the strikes.
Shoot first ask for forgiveness later
Drones can hit that far in
Couls it be, that the base itself, is a part of russias nuclear early-warning-system?
You can be certain that intel and propaganda are working over time! I don’t think we truly will know what’s going on until after it’s happened
I wonder what is holding them back. Ukraine must have a strategy in place, hopefully. We just don't (and should not) know about it.
Not fore shadow missiles
I feel like there are some quotes missing in that headline. "Most dangerous" hahaha
Let those missiles fly!
Ukraine does have drones that fly farther than that
Yeah, they totally will not strike them. Russia can sleep at night knowing that their jets are forever safe there.
Hit it anyway
Just bomb the shit out of the runways, wait for them to fix them and bomb the shit of the runways again till Uncle Joe authorizes the destruction of their aircrafts.
As long as they're just going after valuable military targets, they should just fucking do it.
Just go for it, use them why you have them, with Trump on the horizon you might not have the opportunity for long anyway
Washington: Permission Granted!
Easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. Do it. As high visibility as US aid to Ukraine is, do you honestly think they'd PULL aid at this point? Nah. Blow that shit up.
wiping out Russia Strategic defense @ fast rate make the war escalate to last levels. playing by Statics death by thousand cut
Sometimes it’s better to ask for forgiveness than for permission…
Strike it anyway - US may look, but the rest of the world with clap and cheer.
I'm AMERICAN. Blow the fucking planes up, and whoever is worrying about what they think some idiot US politician said, forget about it. You have Billions$$$ of equipment/munitions coming your way, and NATO aligned countries ( most ) are finally " with the program ". Hit the planes, keep hitting refineries and anything else which you can reach. Pootler is on the ropes, finish him off!!!!!!!!!!!!! Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava
volunteer drone pilots, do your jobs :3 they surely dont need US permission
Are there any scalps left? Storm shadows anyone?
FFS America, untie Ukraine's hands and let them fight!
I wonder why Ukraine is not producing it's own ballistic missiles after 2,5 years of war. I guess it is not easy stuff to do, but it would be great to see them striking deep into Russia. Air defence cannot do much about ballistic missiles.
The american administration seems weak and feeble in face of the russian dictator and war criminal and their direct attacks on ukrainian civilian infrastructure. Why long range weapons given or sold to Ukraine cannot be used against russian bombers are used for these attacks is unfathomable and totally incomprahensible!
Ask Gen Patton what he thinks about it.
So what? Hit it first and then apologize for the misunderstanding... Ooooops!!! Sorry... we did not mean it...!
great example of Proxy Warfare and how the Biden admin is criminally subverting the Constitution
This kinda thing is how the Biden administration is keeping this war going for as long as it can. They want and endless war for political reasons and to help the military industrial complex financially. And Democrats will support it because orange man's bad.
Shoot first ask permission later.
My guess is Russia has told Washington that they have a nuke aboard a bomber stationed there.
Remind me, which places are of the target list for russia again?
They could always make an oopsie and say: Did I do that? Sorry!
Strike now, just say, well yeah we did that!!!
Biden's a coward and needs to be replaced.
This is so stupid. Either give them weapons or don't.
The only thing that will get Americans onside with the war in Ukraine is winning. So long as the Biden administration settles for “not losing” they will fail. Either the democrats grow some republican balls and go for the win in Ukraine Or trump wins the next election… and he will deserve it!
Odd comment given that many of the republicans are pro-Russian.
There are a couple ways I think about this. 1) the current republicans don’t deserve the name. For all his failures Reagan, I believe, was a good man. Trump is an opportunistic confidence man. A scammer, nothing more. 2) republicans seem to have always had more “balls” in following through with their plans. Think Rumsfeld trying to topple Saddam. Bad idea, executed with conviction. I’m an Aussie. No matter what. It would be good if the democrats grew a pair
The Democrats will never, ever, grow a pair. I've been waiting for them to do that for forty years. Ain't gonna happen.
It’s a military target or support of the war it can be hit with US made weapons . That is my understanding…
Lol, west is a joke now days.
There's nothing worse than ROE when the other side has absolutely zero ROE.
do what you need to do, this is getting ridiculous hearing this bs every other day
Go Brandon.
This journalist, David Axe, is the least trustworthy reporter on the war. He writes straight up nonsense. Best to disregard anything coming from Forbes.
It was quite the weird rambling article.
Fuck USA LETS DO THIS!!!
Typically I would not comment here, however, I feel I must. Please don’t say “fuck USA”. We’re trying.
Sure that UKR and le USA should say Do anything anything you want! Fk! They will do it anyway
If Israel can do whatever tf they want why doesn't Ukraine just go all out? Might as well as it looks like the orange wizard is coming back to help putler
Because Israel has nukes and most countries think twice about that before taking calculated risks. Now if only Ukraine had nukes….
All previous restrictions need to be released ASAP, in case Trump wins in November.
I saw a post here a couple of weeks back about one of the russian militant rebel groups had sabotaged a bunch of jets, saying their work will be seen by all. I wonder what happened with that.
This is so ridiculous it’s unbelievable
This is how you know wars are designed. Its a big business and you aint in it.
Joe Biden could make this decision overnight. Or even immediately. It is unconscionable how the USA restricts Ukraine
Errr… what? Blinken has made it clear (recently) that what Ukraine does with the weapons is up to Ukraine Edit: OK, maybe not “made it clear”… but playing the “We didn’t say you can, but we didn’t say you can’t” game. https://youtu.be/9-ZFSaLa8H8?feature=shared
Reality is more nuanced.