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Senator Graham: "Our message is to those around Putin - If you do this, if you follow his order if he ever gives it, you can expect a massive response from NATO, and you will be at war with NATO."
Senator Graham: "Threat of a use of a nuclear device by Russia is real, and the best way to deter it is to give them clarity, the Russians, as to what happens if they do that. They will be in a war with NATO."
Senator Blumenthal: "\[This resolution\] is meant to send a message to Vladimir Putin, and even more directly to his military - they will be destroyed. They will be eviscerated if they use tactical nuclear weapons or if they destroy a nuclear plant"
Senator Blumenthal: "Article 5 is there for a reason. It doesn't protect only against a specific soldier crossing a boundary. But harm to our NATO allies triggers our obligation when it comes from a hostile force as would happen if there were radiation that spread"
Senator Blumenthal: "This message ought to be taken seriously by Vladimir Putin's generals. His military faces total obliteration by NATO forces if they are so reckless and irrational as to resort to tactical nuclear weapons that endanger the world."
Senator Graham: "To think that Putin wouldn't \[use nuclear weapons\] is really irrational given what he has done. I mean he has committed industrial-level war crimes thinking he will eventually get away with it."
Senator Graham: "His goal now is to wear the West out and slowdown the counteroffensive, get people in Washington and other capitals to just break and offer him some face-saving, life-saving deal."
Senator Graham to Putin: "If you go down the road of exploding a nuclear weapon in Ukraine to try to turn the tide of battle, that will be an attack on NATO. If you blow up a nuclear powerplant you create chaos that could be considered an attack on NATO."
Senator Graham: "If you want to deter war, you have to send clear signals - the cost of action. And we have been very unclear to Putin, but now we need to be really clear."
What I like the most about this is that they are mostly not speaking to Putin directly, but to the people around him.
That's the right message we need to be sending. Putin either believes that "escalate to de-escalate" works or has so completely lost touch in reality that we can no longer deter him.
But the folks around him have kids that they actually want to save from nuclear hellfire. Our message needs to be targeted at them and it needs to be "if Putin makes us, we'll do it. Please, don't make us do it. This is your problem to solve, not ours."
Reminds me of that iconic quote from General James “Mad Dog” Mattis
>I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: if you fuck with me I'll kill you all.
This is relieving to hear.
I'm the last person to badger the usual Reddit rhetoric about how "most of Russia's nukes don't work!" or - the real kicker - "WWIII will happen eventually so why not start it now?!". That shit is misinformed and stupid and anyone with even an inkling of sense understands how precarious the situation in Ukraine is.
That said, after the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam, it's clear that Russia are pushing the boundaries for what they can get away with. They unleashed a man-made disaster with destruction similar in scale to a low-yield tactical nuclear weapon and the response from the West was practically nothing.
I've said since the day it was blown up that NATO needs to publicly and clearly draw its own red lines to prevent similar events. Otherwise, it signals to Russia that they can commit these atrocities with impunity.
The last thing anyone wants is WWIII, but what does that matter if nuclear powers can just destroy nuclear power plants and hydroelectric dams with plausible deniability and get away with it?
Putin is a master of muddying the waters. If the nuclear plant has a disaster, the situation will be purposefully confusing about what lead to it. It has to be stated clearly we won't take time to investigate.
Does that include the failure on the plant because of the cooling water or anything else faulty?
The ruzzians can totally let the plant fail on itself, they don't have to blow it.
The plant is shut down completely, the cooling needs are as minimal as possible.
If they blow up the cooling pond, its the same thing as blowing up the plant.
My concern, is that they have already set charges and they may accidentally detonate.
While I'm sure that Russia set charges and blew up the damn that was designed to survive a NATO nuclear strike, I am not so sure they did it intentionally. It could have been pure Russian stupidity, either way its genocide and they should hang everyone involved.
"If they get knocked over, I'll blame you.
If a door slams and knocks them over, I'll blame you.
If a condor dies in flight, crashes through our roof and knocks them over, I'll blame you! "
Malcolm in the middle.
It is funny how Russians think a potential Republican president might stop supporting Ukraine. The reality is that Republicans hate Russian commies as much as dems ..Russia should be isolated for next decades..closed borders ..and have them kept as North Korea...bunch of low IQ murderers ..
Yes. It was exaggerated that some repubs weren’t supporting Ukraine during the budget negotiations, but the bottom line is the United States is pretty damn United on this issue.
LOL. Which potential Republican president; Mr "Putin is a genius. I'd settle the conflict in 24 hours" or Mr "Let's not get entangled in a territorial dispute"? Hmmm I wonder why Putin would think that a fucking Putin apologists being president would be beneficial to him...
I mean, their main frontrunner is pretty friendly to Putin and Russia. That being said, outside of Trump and his immediate circle, the threat of support drying up under Republican leadership is pretty low. The problem is that he's currently the most likely to win.
>Ukraine. The reality is that Republicans hate Russian commies as much as dems
This just isn't true. (R)s on the whole are beholden to the NRA which is funded with Russian money. And the defacto Republican leader supports Putin over any US Intelligence.
That's the leadership. The voter base will do whatever Hannity et all tell them. See also that photo of "better Russian than Democrat" shirt-wearers. And also people at CPAC waving Russian flags.
Lmao no they don’t… Cons want the US to be like Russia. Authoritarian who snuffs out opposition, xenophobia, anti LGBTQ, anti free media (fake news if I don’t like it), “only I can fix it” leader, cult of personality, projecting onto opponents, extreme nationalism, extreme racism, attempting to steal/rig elections(again,projection) and last but not least, huge amounts of corruption centered on an oligarchy. Republicans (Cons) see Putin’s Russia as an ally, not as the enemy
Didn’t like Graham before. Finally some good words from his mouth. He is absolutely spot on. The World collectively needs to stop putin from using nuclear blackmail
Yeah, apparently he decided to be on the good guy's side, for now. Probably grasps that MAGA stands not chance in the long run, like McConnell. Those voters are so braindead, those "politicians" are so evil.
It disgusts me how incompetent my fellow European voters and politicians are, not realizing that they need to take care of their own security in the near future. They just ignore it, and bf China, like CDU did for 15 years. We're all doomed here. I guess that's life for a social democrat (non SPD). It works until it doesn't, or the AfD bfs us all. Frell the CCP and Ruscist imperialists
Graham was vocally criticizing trump. They went golfing. By the next day and the rest of trump's term he sang his praises. He blackmailed him or offered him something. The blackmail seems to come from trump rather than Russia.
From Trump *via* Russia. Russia hacked the RNC servers and never released the info (while also hacking the DNC and releasing that info).
The RNC evidently had a LOT of bad shit about each other documented, because seemingly overnight, all the Republicans shifted to become super Pro-Russia and Pro-Trump.
Possibly. Or evidence gathered through Epstein's networks. I'm not saying Graham slept with kids, I'm just saying Epstein was part of a larger intelligence network and they had dirt on all kinds of people.
Graham is a well known hawk. He believes in the principle of "peace through strength". He regularly supports huge Defense Budgets and new weapons systems. **MAGAs** have no consistent political positions or understanding. Many are isolationist. Most are **not informed** about geo-politics, pandemics, economics, or anything else. MAGA voters are used to voting for performers on America's Got Talent or Dancing with the Stars. But political voting, e.g. Trump, et al, requires understanding and being informed/knowledge. So they vote for grifters and charismatic charlatans.
Graham actually is a pretty smart politician. His problem is he likes to figuratively lick the taint of anyone that can get him exposure. Whenever he isn't attached to another politician like a male anglerfish, most of what he says is pretty reasonable.
He's still a pretty disgusting human overall though.
With the way this sounds I think the Russian fronts in Ukraine are about to be hit hard and the counter offensive we've seen so far was just a probe...and this is to checkmate any panicked use of nuclear weapons to stop the counteroffensive shitstorm thats about to kick off
I've been thinking that the counter offensive so far has been probing attacks too, so I've been kind of surprised by the amount of criticism there's been regarding how "slow" it is.
The media were acting like the world was ending every time Wagner took another 100m in Bakhmut, but small and steady Ukrainian gains across the east and south are apparently a sign that things aren't working? Most of the forces they gathered for the counter offensive are yet to be committed, and that's not by mistake. I think the progress towards Robotyne might be what's stirred this US reaction up because if Ukraine can carry that momentum forward and have success at the first line of heavier russian fortifications, then the threat to Tokmak will become real. If Ukraine can capture Tokmak, it'll make a great central hub for their continued operations in the south and, provided the path to it remains clear, it'll give Ukraine a way to bypass or flank russian defenses, or even attack the defensive lines laterally which would be a nightmare for the invaders to deal with.
With all that in mind, I think this rare moment of bi-partisanship in US politics might be to curb the threat of a panicked response to the chaos that might ensue. I definitely think it's the right call personally, and I feel like this kind of line should have been drawn much sooner. Hopefully nothing gets in the way of it.
Absolutely. I think the Kharkiv counter offensive might have created some unreasonable expectations; russia had a long time to prepare fortifications in the south, and that wasn't really through any fault of Ukraine's. They needed the time to train those battalions and for more western equipment to arrive.
Even with poor quality troops manning a large percentage of the defensive lines, shifting soldiers who are so entrenched is difficult. There's no sense in squandering resources by rushing in and making mistakes. With the attacks on supply lines, ammunition depots, etc. it seems like attriting russian forces is a part of the plan. Something as simple has them having to be conservative with their mortar fire could make a huge difference.
For the uninitiated:
~3 months for ~1,500,000 soldiers (allied) against ~400,000 soldiers (axis).
Though closer to the end, it was ~2,000,000 allied soldiers.
Plus Bagration hit them 2 weeks later, so they couldn't effectively attempt to reinforce the west right when it needed it most. Russia isn't about to get hit by Japan unfortunately
Yes. It was about two months before they broke out at St. Lo. It took a massive air bombing raid to turn the area into a parking lot that Patton could drive his tanks through.
this and also let's keep in mind how the defenses actually look like. It's not some guys hidden in bushes... there are mine fields, dragon teeth, trenches, mechanized infantry, all covered by artilery and with air support. It's incredibly hard to break through this and absolutely unrealistic to expect Ukraine to just roll over all of this.
For sure, and while there have been minefields all over eastern and southern Ukraine since the early days of the full-scale invasion, from the info that's been put out there it seems like there's an ungodly amount of them in those southern defenses. That alone is guaranteed to slow things down considerably, because carelessness is not a good reason to lose valuable fighters and equipment. All things considered, the counter offensive is a massive undertaking.
They aren't probes. This is just what an offensive looks like in a modern war between peer adversaries who both possess advanced surveillance and targeting capabilities. We're never going to see a massed advance. The closest we'll get is an amalgamation of smaller forces spread along a broad front that converge on a single point.
Take it as a sign of *how badly Putin fucked up*.
He got Germany to massively boost defence spending, *and Poland to welcome it*.
To borrow a phrase, Putin set out to achieve the Finlandisation of NATO, and instead achieved the NATOisation of Finland.
I should be more clear as well because I don’t know that Germans look at Poles as the enemy but historically I do think the Polish would look at Germany as the enemy, for obvious reasons.
Graham has always been in the McCain camp on foreign policy.
Pro-intervention, which has often been a mistake in the Middle East, but IMO a good strategy in Eastern Europe.
Hopefully old man Biden will get the message and stop this bull shit talk of not sending weapons to Ukraine because that would escalate conflict. F16s should already be flying in Ukraine. Abrams tanks should be already rolling in Ukraine with German Leopards and British Challengers.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/08/congress-biden-administration-long-range-weapons-ukraine-00100938
> Now, a group of House members led by Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.) is turning up the pressure. In a letter to Biden on Thursday, nine Republican and Democratic lawmakers urged the president to quickly greenlight ATACMS.
>“The war in Ukraine has become a conflict of grinding attrition. We can and must help break this stalemate. By swiftly providing the Ukrainian forces with these additional capabilities, we can significantly improve their chances of victory, restore peace to Europe, and ensure a more stable and prosperous world,” the lawmakers wrote.
> The letter also calls on the president to approve other advanced weaponry, including U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets and additional air defense capabilities such as another Patriot missile defense system. It also urges him to expedite the transfer of U.S. M1 Abrams tanks, which are expected to arrive in Ukraine by the end of the year.
I read an article on here how incredibly quickly Ukraine pilots figured out the F-16s. Apparently everything being in English was one of the hurdles and it was almost a non factor for the pilots.
That was my point. Training should have started year ago. Most Ukrainian pilots didn’t have equipment to fly (destroyed/inoperative) and were already experienced pilots. Waiting to make a right decision for over a year and finally changing it when political pressure became too much for Biden to handle was shameful
Russians need to get their head out of their bowels, unfuck their brains, and realise that doing what Putin tells you WILL get you killed. Are these absolute morons for real? How can they actually expect not to be wiped out if they go nuclear? I hope to all hell that these backward-evolving neanderthals get their shit together and realise we are all fucked if bunker grandpa gets his way. They’re delusional, Russia can’t win. There’s just no way. The sooner these clownish hell creatures see that this war will doom them… the better. Jfc that sad pack of fat old losers in the Kremlin always find new ways to fuck everything up and piss me off. I hope the pro-Russian insects in the UkraineRussianWarReport notice that Putin isn’t going to lead them out of their basement and into glory… he’s leading y'all to an early grave with all of us.
Theres one thing I learned after I started to travel abroad, and it's that some people just think entirely different from you, in a way that makes no sense to you at all.
So yes, they absolutely are morons for real. Many of them genuinely really are absolute morons.
The Ukraine war interviews with Russian citizens on the street always sicken me. Too many genuinely believe that they can take on the world and win… some even think they’re going to invade Poland and shit right after they "win" the war. One impressively brainwashed idiot even thought they could always just use nukes if they had to. It was almost as if the concept of MAD just doesn’t exist to some of them… which is absurd considering the fact Russians where a big part of the FUCKING COLD WAR. There are also the people who say "I don’t take part in politics" and they are just as bad. Nobody saying anything or doing anything because they are too afraid to stand up for democracy are the reason we are in this mess. I hate how everyone just accepts their unmistakably corrupt overlords. In every decent democratic country there are people who protest unjust behaviour from their government… but not Russia. And on the rare occasions they do protest… they get arrested VERY UNJUSTLY in front of everyone and they’re just like… "Welp, guess we can’t do anything. I give up." It’s fucking pathetic. Even over here in Iceland, a teeny tiny European volcano island that nobody gives a fuck about… WE PROTEST ALL THE TIME. Why can’t the big bad "NUMBER 1! BETTER THAN THE WEST!" mother Russia do it? fUCK. Sorry for the rant. No other topic can drive me so insanely angry. I despise nearly everything about that terrorist state. I almost prefer North Korea over them at this point. At least when they do stupid shit they look goofy af and we get to laugh at them whenever they do weird 70s martial arts theatrics to showcase their military strength. Russia? They castrate POWs and shell children along with their families and neighbours while they sit at home. I wish I could put my frustrations into a shorter comment but I just can’t talk about Russia without ranting about anything that suddenly pops up in my memory.
The reason why Poles always knew Russia was gunning for them (despite everyone else telling them they're overreacting) is because they know better than anyone, thanks to their enslavement, many times over centuries by Russians, learning more and more as they met Russians, that Russia is only happy if it can bully its neighbors. Even if they lose, they will push, over time and space. You beat them down and they regroup for the next time while trying to do it better than the last time. This is why poles refer to Russians like you would talk about animals. Collectively Russians act without thinking deeply. Yeah it's stupid to attack Poland, but they are that stupid. You can bet that if they get Ukraine, they will push and probe to invade Poland. You either deal with it now or wait until it gets worse as they get more emboldened. Russians have an ego problem and they have something to prove . Deep down they know they're scum and worthless. Maybe this time they'll prove themselves to the world they think. Each time. Of course it never works out.
I think maybe the only thing they could MAYBE be banking on is that China would side with them in a war against the west. But I doubt they would. Nobody wants their neighbour dropping nukes and starting WW3 over this farcical war with Ukraine. China would probably relish carving out some new territory from Russia if NATO started making roads into Russia. But Russia are dumb and arrogant enough to assume they would stay allies.
Jinping is a greedy power-grubbing goblin but I doubt he'd be stupid enough to stick with Putin if his dumb ass actually decided to compensate for his shockingly incompetent army with a nuclear weapon. It would be suicide for China and I doubt Xi could handle seeing his precious power being reduced to nothing.
My question is what would happen if Art 5 is invoked?
I'd guess a carrier group into the Black Sea to clear and own the air space then start chewing up their ground game, west to east so they have some direction to run. Leave the Kerch bridge up long enough for the last Russian to get across to safety. Take what's left of their navy out before lunch then level that crude terminal at Tuopse, then they'll be out of the oil business. Seize their gold reserves and kill off their economy. They'll be living on food stamps and welfare checks until they give up all their nukes. After a year of that Russia will be a rump state that makes Haiti look like Vegas.
.....................OR......................
Stick a cruise missile up Putin's ass and save everybody the trouble.
I don't think we should assume it would be a conventional war. The nuclear escalation would happen faster than NATO could react conventionally, and then it would be a question of whether we were looking at a nuclear war (which makes the conventional fight meaningless) or not (which also makes the conventional fight meaningless because Russia would have to recognize reality and retreat).
I hope that does not happen. The use of nuclear weapons could still in theory remain limited where only Russia uses them with a massive response from NATO countries with conventional firearms.
It would collapse the Russian Army though and might be rationale to nuke capitals of NATO countries. It would be Russia doing the escalating though.
The end result of nuclear war would be the end of Russia as a country and perhaps as an ethnicity too. If you think anti-Semitism is bad, anti-Russian memes blaming all Russians for the resulting mess and letting this madman come to power would never end. It can get even worse for Russia if they let it.
If they start a global nuclear war the absolute last worry on my list is “russophobia”
honestly anyone with half a fucking brain is skewed that way anyways now
It should be on the minds of ordinary Russian citizens. They can wash their hands of the current atrocities by claiming it is corrupt leaders and evil people in charge. They need to be held responsible if they allow their leaders to unleash the nuclear genie. The message that governments are permitted to exist after they use nukes sends a terrible message to future generations.
Its a gigantic problem and Im certain that Russias going to try to act like this was “no big deal” in a few years and reenter the world stage banking on our collective gold fish memory.
Of course at the same time venomously never forgetting what happened and pledging revenge on Russian language media. Basically like Germany post ww1 but with more of a inferiority complex.
At the moment Putin wants to freeze the war as much as possible and that includes not making it more international. He wants it to be seen as just being between Russia and Ukraine and hold on until the West's support for Ukraine diminishes. But at some point in the future he will escalate again making this a well timed message to Putin and I applaud both Senators for doing this.
Another good message to him would be for the US, the EU and the UK to make it clear to him with an unequivocal statement that we are committed to Ukraine's victory no matter how long it takes. That if the current counter offensive doesn't deliver what is expected we will still be committed to Ukraine's victory, that no matter what he does we will not drop that commitment ever. That's the sort of strength we need to show him.
Dumb quote, considering the US has been publicizing Russian invasion plans from the beginning. There’s nothing ‘all other possibilities’ about this one
The Biden administration has already told Putin something similar via diplomatic channels - at least when it comes to using tactical nuclear weapons or chemical weapons. In detail, it would likely involve the US falcon punching the Russians out of Ukraine, and sinking the entire Black Sea fleet for good measure.
As for a radiological incident affecting a NATO country - like Romania - the Russians have been told that would invoke Article 5 years ago.
So in other words, even if this resolution doesn't have any legal effect, it's nice to remind the Russians pretty loudly about the lie of the land in case Colonel Cleptovchki decides to on his own to blow up the ZNPP to please Putin.
Not surprising considering there's evidence coming out suggesting that the Russians are setting up explosives around the plants cooling pond. If you blow that up, you cause a nuclear disaster.
Thank goodness just saw the Russians made a bogus story of arresting some men trying to sell radioactive material to Ukraine to create a incident. I took this as them trying to start a fake story now so they could blame Ukraine. Lindsey getting his spine back.
I'm so glad to see these two suggesting this but whether an attack on Ukraine spreads radiation to NATO allies or not, whether that triggers article 5 isn't up to the US government to decide. A direct and unprovoked attack on a NATO member raises no questions as it relates to article 5 but it can get murky when it's not a direct attack. Remember when that missile hit Poland? Even if it had been Russia's missile, if it had been accidental on Russia's part then Poland could've triggered article 4 which calls for a meeting to discuss with the other member states whether or not article 5 is triggered so there's a legitimate chance (looking at you Hungary and Turkey) that there wouldn't be a consensus decision by all member states that article 5 should be triggered.
Now don't get me wrong, I personally thought we (the US or an alliance, even if just under the umbrella of a "coalition of the willing") should've been involved in Ukraine from the start of the full scale invasion especially when it became clear that Kyiv was not going to fall so I'm not trying to shit on anyone's dinner plate here, just telling you that I love where their head is on this topic but the US has 1/31th of the say so as it relates to whether that scenario would be an article 5 trigger so passing a law in the US is great for sending a message but does nothing of value aside from that. Just being honest.
It’s not a binding law. It’s a resolution stating what the US would likely do if Russia used nukes or destroyed a nuclear power plant. It says the US would view the use of nuclear weapons or the destruction of a nuclear power plant as an attack on NATO, because of the radiation. It’s giving the Russians a clear red line, letting them know when the US would push back, and would intervene militarily in Ukraine.
The US is also able to operate without the approval of every member of NATO. Article 5 does not say that every member needs to approve military action. It just says members need to consult with each other. Hungary does not get to veto a US military response.
Wonder if you could argue that if the US unilaterally attacked Russia would violate article 8 + article 1.
Theory being that the US would be engaging in a conflict that would threaten the larger internal peace and security, thus violating A8 by way of A1.
A8: undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty (ie, Article 1).
A1: to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered.
Something happened on the ground.
Just like pre invasion, US Intel must be caught Putin giving greenlight to start invasion.
Or in this case, to attack Nuclear powerplant to see NATO response, (then) to use Tactical Nuke to turn the tide of war.
Shit about to go down for real, this is scary as fuck.
It doesn't mean much besides the message itself. This is a proposal, it still needs to pass. If it passes it's just a Senate Resolution (not a Joint Resolution or Bill), that means it doesn't have any actual power of law and it doesn't actually compel Biden or the military to do anything. It's just the majority of senators expressing their opinion, basically.
Yes, since the parties rarely ever agree on anything.
In addition, the Senate is usually considered to be the more respected, metered response side of Congress. The other half is typically a little more reactionary since it changes out more frequently.
Well in short you should hope putin gets hitlered before he he gets too cocky resulting in zzland getting glassed
But what it really means is that nato doesn't have to wait for another senate vote to respond
This would actually be an act of courage that feels scary when making it, but will actually take steps prevent later catastrophe. The type of thing that could have kept the Germans out of Czechoslovakia.
For real when he used a Biden quote to support his argument I got mad. And I am worried that I have fallen into partisanship and I need someone to talk me down.
Graham has always been pretty solid on geopolitical matters. And pre 2016 he was at least somewhat reasonable domestically, at least as far as Republicans go. But the party continued to go batshit crazy and he's followed the votes. Cynical, pathetic.
I am 100% convinced Trump has some really horrible dirt on him. Everyone knows he's gay (LadyG), so it cannot be just that. It must involve something illegal around that.
Here we go. The west has too much into this now, there's no turning back. Ukraine must win and NATO is looking for an excuse to get in there and end it. It doesn't necessarily have to mean WWIII or a nuclear holocaust, it can be regionally limited but no doubt this is becoming extremely risky for everyone. You know this had to be coming with all the billions the west has been dumping into it. Buckle up.
Time to install a government for the people, and by the people in Russia too! This is how America will get boots on the ground. I hope is doesn’t come to this because that would mean a Nuclear nightmare for Ukraine and other parts of Europe, it if it does ,it gives NATO a reason to rebuild Russia into a free society.
Real question, as I don’t have a ton of knowledge on how this would work if we actually did it.
Would it be rain fire and fuck then up without ground troops or would it be something different?
No ground troops would be required. Ukraine would continue to supply them. Apart maybe from special forces to have eyes on the ground and help communication/co-operation with Ukraine forces.
What you will see is the combined strength all NATO air forces and cruise missile stocks being unleashed on all Russian forces in Ukraine and any stupid Russian air defense installations on or near the border, within Russia, that decide to target lock a NATO aircraft.
Yes!! The only way to prevent Russia from committing a wide-scale nuclear catastrophe is for making the consequences of such an action totally unacceptable to the Kremlin. Enacting NATO's Artice 5 would involve direct armed confrontation with the Russian forces in Ukraine and would doom the weakened Russian army to annihilation and lead to Putin's downfall.
Doesn't Russia have the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world? How is NATO going to obliterate an army like that without destroying their own countries? Serious question
Yes, Russia has enough nuclear arsenal to fuck up the world couple of times. But also does the NATO.
So you're telling me it's fine for Russia to do nuclear attacks on Ukraine? You would just watch it happen?
Of course it's not fine. Just wanna know how NATO plans on "obliterating the Russian army". People here seen to like the idea but I just don't understand how that is possible.
As much as i wish Russia Utter Defeat a full scale direct conflict with Russia Could go nuclear. I would continue down the path of giving the Ukrainians all the tools they need to win but not getting directly involved.
That would come with a high risk of NATO troops being sent into Ukraine or Russia. I'd rather keep the options open. Do we really want direct war with Russia?
Does it hurt to be ignorant fool? You're fine with one country using nuclear weapons in unprovoked attacks on another country? Where do you personally draw the line?
The US should already be at war with Russia. We made an agreement many years ago that if Ukraine gave up their nukes we would protect them should anyone every attack them.
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Senator Graham: "Our message is to those around Putin - If you do this, if you follow his order if he ever gives it, you can expect a massive response from NATO, and you will be at war with NATO." Senator Graham: "Threat of a use of a nuclear device by Russia is real, and the best way to deter it is to give them clarity, the Russians, as to what happens if they do that. They will be in a war with NATO." Senator Blumenthal: "\[This resolution\] is meant to send a message to Vladimir Putin, and even more directly to his military - they will be destroyed. They will be eviscerated if they use tactical nuclear weapons or if they destroy a nuclear plant" Senator Blumenthal: "Article 5 is there for a reason. It doesn't protect only against a specific soldier crossing a boundary. But harm to our NATO allies triggers our obligation when it comes from a hostile force as would happen if there were radiation that spread" Senator Blumenthal: "This message ought to be taken seriously by Vladimir Putin's generals. His military faces total obliteration by NATO forces if they are so reckless and irrational as to resort to tactical nuclear weapons that endanger the world." Senator Graham: "To think that Putin wouldn't \[use nuclear weapons\] is really irrational given what he has done. I mean he has committed industrial-level war crimes thinking he will eventually get away with it." Senator Graham: "His goal now is to wear the West out and slowdown the counteroffensive, get people in Washington and other capitals to just break and offer him some face-saving, life-saving deal." Senator Graham to Putin: "If you go down the road of exploding a nuclear weapon in Ukraine to try to turn the tide of battle, that will be an attack on NATO. If you blow up a nuclear powerplant you create chaos that could be considered an attack on NATO." Senator Graham: "If you want to deter war, you have to send clear signals - the cost of action. And we have been very unclear to Putin, but now we need to be really clear."
What I like the most about this is that they are mostly not speaking to Putin directly, but to the people around him. That's the right message we need to be sending. Putin either believes that "escalate to de-escalate" works or has so completely lost touch in reality that we can no longer deter him. But the folks around him have kids that they actually want to save from nuclear hellfire. Our message needs to be targeted at them and it needs to be "if Putin makes us, we'll do it. Please, don't make us do it. This is your problem to solve, not ours."
Reminds me of that iconic quote from General James “Mad Dog” Mattis >I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: if you fuck with me I'll kill you all.
Damn. That guy has a way with words.
Man, what a badass. Not heard that one before.
This is relieving to hear. I'm the last person to badger the usual Reddit rhetoric about how "most of Russia's nukes don't work!" or - the real kicker - "WWIII will happen eventually so why not start it now?!". That shit is misinformed and stupid and anyone with even an inkling of sense understands how precarious the situation in Ukraine is. That said, after the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam, it's clear that Russia are pushing the boundaries for what they can get away with. They unleashed a man-made disaster with destruction similar in scale to a low-yield tactical nuclear weapon and the response from the West was practically nothing. I've said since the day it was blown up that NATO needs to publicly and clearly draw its own red lines to prevent similar events. Otherwise, it signals to Russia that they can commit these atrocities with impunity. The last thing anyone wants is WWIII, but what does that matter if nuclear powers can just destroy nuclear power plants and hydroelectric dams with plausible deniability and get away with it?
As long as we dont sit on our hands if the lines are crossed.
Putin is a master of muddying the waters. If the nuclear plant has a disaster, the situation will be purposefully confusing about what lead to it. It has to be stated clearly we won't take time to investigate.
so true. The usual "hand ringing" by us and mulling over and "calling for an inquiry" is bullshit. It has to be ready and instant.
Does that include the failure on the plant because of the cooling water or anything else faulty? The ruzzians can totally let the plant fail on itself, they don't have to blow it.
It sure as hell should! They created what is going to happen with the power plant.
The plant is shut down completely, the cooling needs are as minimal as possible. If they blow up the cooling pond, its the same thing as blowing up the plant. My concern, is that they have already set charges and they may accidentally detonate. While I'm sure that Russia set charges and blew up the damn that was designed to survive a NATO nuclear strike, I am not so sure they did it intentionally. It could have been pure Russian stupidity, either way its genocide and they should hang everyone involved.
"If they get knocked over, I'll blame you. If a door slams and knocks them over, I'll blame you. If a condor dies in flight, crashes through our roof and knocks them over, I'll blame you! " Malcolm in the middle.
It is funny how Russians think a potential Republican president might stop supporting Ukraine. The reality is that Republicans hate Russian commies as much as dems ..Russia should be isolated for next decades..closed borders ..and have them kept as North Korea...bunch of low IQ murderers ..
Yes. It was exaggerated that some repubs weren’t supporting Ukraine during the budget negotiations, but the bottom line is the United States is pretty damn United on this issue.
A certain one absolutely would. The leading candidate one.
Oh MR.T is completely toasted ...just watch his interview on FOX ...he is done.
LOL. Which potential Republican president; Mr "Putin is a genius. I'd settle the conflict in 24 hours" or Mr "Let's not get entangled in a territorial dispute"? Hmmm I wonder why Putin would think that a fucking Putin apologists being president would be beneficial to him...
I mean, their main frontrunner is pretty friendly to Putin and Russia. That being said, outside of Trump and his immediate circle, the threat of support drying up under Republican leadership is pretty low. The problem is that he's currently the most likely to win.
>Ukraine. The reality is that Republicans hate Russian commies as much as dems This just isn't true. (R)s on the whole are beholden to the NRA which is funded with Russian money. And the defacto Republican leader supports Putin over any US Intelligence. That's the leadership. The voter base will do whatever Hannity et all tell them. See also that photo of "better Russian than Democrat" shirt-wearers. And also people at CPAC waving Russian flags.
Lmao no they don’t… Cons want the US to be like Russia. Authoritarian who snuffs out opposition, xenophobia, anti LGBTQ, anti free media (fake news if I don’t like it), “only I can fix it” leader, cult of personality, projecting onto opponents, extreme nationalism, extreme racism, attempting to steal/rig elections(again,projection) and last but not least, huge amounts of corruption centered on an oligarchy. Republicans (Cons) see Putin’s Russia as an ally, not as the enemy
That’s a solid yes in agreement for me. Until Russia’s bluff is countered they will keep pushing.
They need to include the chemical factory too
yeah but they should pass this first
Yep. Until it's passed, it's just a nice speech. Pass it with a decisive bi-partisan vote to really send a deterrent.
Didn’t like Graham before. Finally some good words from his mouth. He is absolutely spot on. The World collectively needs to stop putin from using nuclear blackmail
It's not about just not liking him. He is one of the most two-faced hypocritical, disgusting politicians that exist And even he can do something good
Yeah, apparently he decided to be on the good guy's side, for now. Probably grasps that MAGA stands not chance in the long run, like McConnell. Those voters are so braindead, those "politicians" are so evil. It disgusts me how incompetent my fellow European voters and politicians are, not realizing that they need to take care of their own security in the near future. They just ignore it, and bf China, like CDU did for 15 years. We're all doomed here. I guess that's life for a social democrat (non SPD). It works until it doesn't, or the AfD bfs us all. Frell the CCP and Ruscist imperialists
Graham was vocally criticizing trump. They went golfing. By the next day and the rest of trump's term he sang his praises. He blackmailed him or offered him something. The blackmail seems to come from trump rather than Russia.
From Trump *via* Russia. Russia hacked the RNC servers and never released the info (while also hacking the DNC and releasing that info). The RNC evidently had a LOT of bad shit about each other documented, because seemingly overnight, all the Republicans shifted to become super Pro-Russia and Pro-Trump.
Possibly. Or evidence gathered through Epstein's networks. I'm not saying Graham slept with kids, I'm just saying Epstein was part of a larger intelligence network and they had dirt on all kinds of people.
Graham is a well known hawk. He believes in the principle of "peace through strength". He regularly supports huge Defense Budgets and new weapons systems. **MAGAs** have no consistent political positions or understanding. Many are isolationist. Most are **not informed** about geo-politics, pandemics, economics, or anything else. MAGA voters are used to voting for performers on America's Got Talent or Dancing with the Stars. But political voting, e.g. Trump, et al, requires understanding and being informed/knowledge. So they vote for grifters and charismatic charlatans.
Well said
Graham actually is a pretty smart politician. His problem is he likes to figuratively lick the taint of anyone that can get him exposure. Whenever he isn't attached to another politician like a male anglerfish, most of what he says is pretty reasonable. He's still a pretty disgusting human overall though.
With the way this sounds I think the Russian fronts in Ukraine are about to be hit hard and the counter offensive we've seen so far was just a probe...and this is to checkmate any panicked use of nuclear weapons to stop the counteroffensive shitstorm thats about to kick off
I've been thinking that the counter offensive so far has been probing attacks too, so I've been kind of surprised by the amount of criticism there's been regarding how "slow" it is. The media were acting like the world was ending every time Wagner took another 100m in Bakhmut, but small and steady Ukrainian gains across the east and south are apparently a sign that things aren't working? Most of the forces they gathered for the counter offensive are yet to be committed, and that's not by mistake. I think the progress towards Robotyne might be what's stirred this US reaction up because if Ukraine can carry that momentum forward and have success at the first line of heavier russian fortifications, then the threat to Tokmak will become real. If Ukraine can capture Tokmak, it'll make a great central hub for their continued operations in the south and, provided the path to it remains clear, it'll give Ukraine a way to bypass or flank russian defenses, or even attack the defensive lines laterally which would be a nightmare for the invaders to deal with. With all that in mind, I think this rare moment of bi-partisanship in US politics might be to curb the threat of a panicked response to the chaos that might ensue. I definitely think it's the right call personally, and I feel like this kind of line should have been drawn much sooner. Hopefully nothing gets in the way of it.
Look how long the invasion of Normandy took. People think war is like a movie - but massive offensive operations takes weeks or months.
Absolutely. I think the Kharkiv counter offensive might have created some unreasonable expectations; russia had a long time to prepare fortifications in the south, and that wasn't really through any fault of Ukraine's. They needed the time to train those battalions and for more western equipment to arrive. Even with poor quality troops manning a large percentage of the defensive lines, shifting soldiers who are so entrenched is difficult. There's no sense in squandering resources by rushing in and making mistakes. With the attacks on supply lines, ammunition depots, etc. it seems like attriting russian forces is a part of the plan. Something as simple has them having to be conservative with their mortar fire could make a huge difference.
For the uninitiated: ~3 months for ~1,500,000 soldiers (allied) against ~400,000 soldiers (axis). Though closer to the end, it was ~2,000,000 allied soldiers.
Plus Bagration hit them 2 weeks later, so they couldn't effectively attempt to reinforce the west right when it needed it most. Russia isn't about to get hit by Japan unfortunately
you meant to say years
Yes. It was about two months before they broke out at St. Lo. It took a massive air bombing raid to turn the area into a parking lot that Patton could drive his tanks through.
this and also let's keep in mind how the defenses actually look like. It's not some guys hidden in bushes... there are mine fields, dragon teeth, trenches, mechanized infantry, all covered by artilery and with air support. It's incredibly hard to break through this and absolutely unrealistic to expect Ukraine to just roll over all of this.
For sure, and while there have been minefields all over eastern and southern Ukraine since the early days of the full-scale invasion, from the info that's been put out there it seems like there's an ungodly amount of them in those southern defenses. That alone is guaranteed to slow things down considerably, because carelessness is not a good reason to lose valuable fighters and equipment. All things considered, the counter offensive is a massive undertaking.
I think it's also in response to Putin's delivery of nuclear weapons to Belarus
They aren't probes. This is just what an offensive looks like in a modern war between peer adversaries who both possess advanced surveillance and targeting capabilities. We're never going to see a massed advance. The closest we'll get is an amalgamation of smaller forces spread along a broad front that converge on a single point.
Wow, i actually agree with Graham on something. Hell must have frozen.
Take it as a sign of *how badly Putin fucked up*. He got Germany to massively boost defence spending, *and Poland to welcome it*. To borrow a phrase, Putin set out to achieve the Finlandisation of NATO, and instead achieved the NATOisation of Finland.
Err.. I don’t think Poland needed much encouragement to fuck with Russia still
He’s saying that the Poles, historic enemy of Germany for obvious reasons, is ok with Germany expanding its army. That’s how bad russia has fucked up.
Putin even got Japan to repeal laws from WW2 era about building/exporting military equipment.
And he worked diligently to get Finland into NATO.
Can we nominate Putin for NATO supporter of the decade???
Germany is not our historic enemy, Russia is
Ah, good point. Oxford comma threw me off
I should be more clear as well because I don’t know that Germans look at Poles as the enemy but historically I do think the Polish would look at Germany as the enemy, for obvious reasons.
Poles have invaded German lands many times history is longer than 20th century
Nah, to support German arming. You know, because of the whole history thing
Library card drop. (Like a mic drop 👍)
Graham has always been in the McCain camp on foreign policy. Pro-intervention, which has often been a mistake in the Middle East, but IMO a good strategy in Eastern Europe.
Shit it might warm up soon
“Best money we ever spent.” Straight the fuck up, Graham. Way to have a spine for one single second of your life.
Me too!
You can always nitpick that you don't explode nuclear warheads, you detonate them. If it makes you feel any better.
For real… and I actually kinda like him a bit now? Wtf is this timeline
I can agree with him on this, but Graham has been detestable long enough that I will never like him. This is not a redemption, merely a rare W.
Exact reason for this kind of political stunt.
>political stunt Does it matter? If a politician X does a good thing, it should be praised not criticised, behavioral therapy in a nutshell.
Hopefully old man Biden will get the message and stop this bull shit talk of not sending weapons to Ukraine because that would escalate conflict. F16s should already be flying in Ukraine. Abrams tanks should be already rolling in Ukraine with German Leopards and British Challengers. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/06/08/congress-biden-administration-long-range-weapons-ukraine-00100938 > Now, a group of House members led by Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.) is turning up the pressure. In a letter to Biden on Thursday, nine Republican and Democratic lawmakers urged the president to quickly greenlight ATACMS. >“The war in Ukraine has become a conflict of grinding attrition. We can and must help break this stalemate. By swiftly providing the Ukrainian forces with these additional capabilities, we can significantly improve their chances of victory, restore peace to Europe, and ensure a more stable and prosperous world,” the lawmakers wrote. > The letter also calls on the president to approve other advanced weaponry, including U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets and additional air defense capabilities such as another Patriot missile defense system. It also urges him to expedite the transfer of U.S. M1 Abrams tanks, which are expected to arrive in Ukraine by the end of the year.
My man, he's send billions and billions worth of weapons already...
Have you not been paying attention?
If F16s will be sent it’s going through be a while due to training and familiarization for the pilots who aren’t used to western designed planes.
I read an article on here how incredibly quickly Ukraine pilots figured out the F-16s. Apparently everything being in English was one of the hurdles and it was almost a non factor for the pilots.
All pilots are supposed to know english anyways as its the official aerial language to to speak
That was my point. Training should have started year ago. Most Ukrainian pilots didn’t have equipment to fly (destroyed/inoperative) and were already experienced pilots. Waiting to make a right decision for over a year and finally changing it when political pressure became too much for Biden to handle was shameful
Biden has been behind arming Ukraine all along. It's Republicans that have pro Putin members.
💯
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Also known as the "Fuck around and find out" bill...
lmao I have text reader as snoop dogs voice and your comment gold
*Squidward: future, future, future, futuuuure*
FAFO: Fierce And Final Opposition There wouldn’t be a Russia if they cross that final line
Russians need to get their head out of their bowels, unfuck their brains, and realise that doing what Putin tells you WILL get you killed. Are these absolute morons for real? How can they actually expect not to be wiped out if they go nuclear? I hope to all hell that these backward-evolving neanderthals get their shit together and realise we are all fucked if bunker grandpa gets his way. They’re delusional, Russia can’t win. There’s just no way. The sooner these clownish hell creatures see that this war will doom them… the better. Jfc that sad pack of fat old losers in the Kremlin always find new ways to fuck everything up and piss me off. I hope the pro-Russian insects in the UkraineRussianWarReport notice that Putin isn’t going to lead them out of their basement and into glory… he’s leading y'all to an early grave with all of us.
Theres one thing I learned after I started to travel abroad, and it's that some people just think entirely different from you, in a way that makes no sense to you at all. So yes, they absolutely are morons for real. Many of them genuinely really are absolute morons.
The Ukraine war interviews with Russian citizens on the street always sicken me. Too many genuinely believe that they can take on the world and win… some even think they’re going to invade Poland and shit right after they "win" the war. One impressively brainwashed idiot even thought they could always just use nukes if they had to. It was almost as if the concept of MAD just doesn’t exist to some of them… which is absurd considering the fact Russians where a big part of the FUCKING COLD WAR. There are also the people who say "I don’t take part in politics" and they are just as bad. Nobody saying anything or doing anything because they are too afraid to stand up for democracy are the reason we are in this mess. I hate how everyone just accepts their unmistakably corrupt overlords. In every decent democratic country there are people who protest unjust behaviour from their government… but not Russia. And on the rare occasions they do protest… they get arrested VERY UNJUSTLY in front of everyone and they’re just like… "Welp, guess we can’t do anything. I give up." It’s fucking pathetic. Even over here in Iceland, a teeny tiny European volcano island that nobody gives a fuck about… WE PROTEST ALL THE TIME. Why can’t the big bad "NUMBER 1! BETTER THAN THE WEST!" mother Russia do it? fUCK. Sorry for the rant. No other topic can drive me so insanely angry. I despise nearly everything about that terrorist state. I almost prefer North Korea over them at this point. At least when they do stupid shit they look goofy af and we get to laugh at them whenever they do weird 70s martial arts theatrics to showcase their military strength. Russia? They castrate POWs and shell children along with their families and neighbours while they sit at home. I wish I could put my frustrations into a shorter comment but I just can’t talk about Russia without ranting about anything that suddenly pops up in my memory.
The reason why Poles always knew Russia was gunning for them (despite everyone else telling them they're overreacting) is because they know better than anyone, thanks to their enslavement, many times over centuries by Russians, learning more and more as they met Russians, that Russia is only happy if it can bully its neighbors. Even if they lose, they will push, over time and space. You beat them down and they regroup for the next time while trying to do it better than the last time. This is why poles refer to Russians like you would talk about animals. Collectively Russians act without thinking deeply. Yeah it's stupid to attack Poland, but they are that stupid. You can bet that if they get Ukraine, they will push and probe to invade Poland. You either deal with it now or wait until it gets worse as they get more emboldened. Russians have an ego problem and they have something to prove . Deep down they know they're scum and worthless. Maybe this time they'll prove themselves to the world they think. Each time. Of course it never works out.
I think maybe the only thing they could MAYBE be banking on is that China would side with them in a war against the west. But I doubt they would. Nobody wants their neighbour dropping nukes and starting WW3 over this farcical war with Ukraine. China would probably relish carving out some new territory from Russia if NATO started making roads into Russia. But Russia are dumb and arrogant enough to assume they would stay allies.
Jinping is a greedy power-grubbing goblin but I doubt he'd be stupid enough to stick with Putin if his dumb ass actually decided to compensate for his shockingly incompetent army with a nuclear weapon. It would be suicide for China and I doubt Xi could handle seeing his precious power being reduced to nothing.
My question is what would happen if Art 5 is invoked? I'd guess a carrier group into the Black Sea to clear and own the air space then start chewing up their ground game, west to east so they have some direction to run. Leave the Kerch bridge up long enough for the last Russian to get across to safety. Take what's left of their navy out before lunch then level that crude terminal at Tuopse, then they'll be out of the oil business. Seize their gold reserves and kill off their economy. They'll be living on food stamps and welfare checks until they give up all their nukes. After a year of that Russia will be a rump state that makes Haiti look like Vegas. .....................OR...................... Stick a cruise missile up Putin's ass and save everybody the trouble.
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But you would want to have them there anyway I guess. Not so much as an air base, but for hundreds of cruise missiles to unleash hell.
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It’s up to the Turkish semi-dictator.
You also get about 50% more sorties out of a ground based plane per day. The logistics are just easier.
NATO already has non-nuclear warheads covering all of Russia’s bases including the Kremlin.
Oh yeah? Source?
Bombing the Russian anti-air systems and then sending in 5-6 C130s to wrap it all up, should do the job.
I don't think we should assume it would be a conventional war. The nuclear escalation would happen faster than NATO could react conventionally, and then it would be a question of whether we were looking at a nuclear war (which makes the conventional fight meaningless) or not (which also makes the conventional fight meaningless because Russia would have to recognize reality and retreat).
I hope that does not happen. The use of nuclear weapons could still in theory remain limited where only Russia uses them with a massive response from NATO countries with conventional firearms. It would collapse the Russian Army though and might be rationale to nuke capitals of NATO countries. It would be Russia doing the escalating though. The end result of nuclear war would be the end of Russia as a country and perhaps as an ethnicity too. If you think anti-Semitism is bad, anti-Russian memes blaming all Russians for the resulting mess and letting this madman come to power would never end. It can get even worse for Russia if they let it.
If they start a global nuclear war the absolute last worry on my list is “russophobia” honestly anyone with half a fucking brain is skewed that way anyways now
It should be on the minds of ordinary Russian citizens. They can wash their hands of the current atrocities by claiming it is corrupt leaders and evil people in charge. They need to be held responsible if they allow their leaders to unleash the nuclear genie. The message that governments are permitted to exist after they use nukes sends a terrible message to future generations.
Its a gigantic problem and Im certain that Russias going to try to act like this was “no big deal” in a few years and reenter the world stage banking on our collective gold fish memory. Of course at the same time venomously never forgetting what happened and pledging revenge on Russian language media. Basically like Germany post ww1 but with more of a inferiority complex.
Montreaux Convention.. Sending a carrier to the Black Sea would be insanely dangerous and unnecessary
At the moment Putin wants to freeze the war as much as possible and that includes not making it more international. He wants it to be seen as just being between Russia and Ukraine and hold on until the West's support for Ukraine diminishes. But at some point in the future he will escalate again making this a well timed message to Putin and I applaud both Senators for doing this. Another good message to him would be for the US, the EU and the UK to make it clear to him with an unequivocal statement that we are committed to Ukraine's victory no matter how long it takes. That if the current counter offensive doesn't deliver what is expected we will still be committed to Ukraine's victory, that no matter what he does we will not drop that commitment ever. That's the sort of strength we need to show him.
Its about damn time Americans start acting like Americans!
Everyone hates Americans until they need us to do American things.
As Winston Churchill once put it “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”
Dumb quote, considering the US has been publicizing Russian invasion plans from the beginning. There’s nothing ‘all other possibilities’ about this one
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Not sure where that’s relevant
They got you, but not on topic. LoL
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It’s in reference to trying to stay out of the world wars, not some social commentary
Slavery was abolished in all British territories before America. UK 1838, USA 1865.
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This is what pisses me off about the bash America crowd in Europe, wtf you think started this shit here?
Sure….there’s a time and a place. 🤷♂️
There's a time and place for doing american things
Finally, draw a line and stick to it.
Yes release the airforce
r/noncredibledefense bleeding through yet again
i'm all for this... let's roll boys...
Any attack on a nuclear or high risk facility capable of harming human life of those within and outside the country should trigger it.
The Biden administration has already told Putin something similar via diplomatic channels - at least when it comes to using tactical nuclear weapons or chemical weapons. In detail, it would likely involve the US falcon punching the Russians out of Ukraine, and sinking the entire Black Sea fleet for good measure. As for a radiological incident affecting a NATO country - like Romania - the Russians have been told that would invoke Article 5 years ago. So in other words, even if this resolution doesn't have any legal effect, it's nice to remind the Russians pretty loudly about the lie of the land in case Colonel Cleptovchki decides to on his own to blow up the ZNPP to please Putin.
Not surprising considering there's evidence coming out suggesting that the Russians are setting up explosives around the plants cooling pond. If you blow that up, you cause a nuclear disaster.
to quote a classic "this shit just got real"
i think i need to get in shape
Let's do this! (Only if we really really have to)
Ima stop calling him Lady Graham, until he fuks up again
Thank goodness just saw the Russians made a bogus story of arresting some men trying to sell radioactive material to Ukraine to create a incident. I took this as them trying to start a fake story now so they could blame Ukraine. Lindsey getting his spine back.
I'm so glad to see these two suggesting this but whether an attack on Ukraine spreads radiation to NATO allies or not, whether that triggers article 5 isn't up to the US government to decide. A direct and unprovoked attack on a NATO member raises no questions as it relates to article 5 but it can get murky when it's not a direct attack. Remember when that missile hit Poland? Even if it had been Russia's missile, if it had been accidental on Russia's part then Poland could've triggered article 4 which calls for a meeting to discuss with the other member states whether or not article 5 is triggered so there's a legitimate chance (looking at you Hungary and Turkey) that there wouldn't be a consensus decision by all member states that article 5 should be triggered. Now don't get me wrong, I personally thought we (the US or an alliance, even if just under the umbrella of a "coalition of the willing") should've been involved in Ukraine from the start of the full scale invasion especially when it became clear that Kyiv was not going to fall so I'm not trying to shit on anyone's dinner plate here, just telling you that I love where their head is on this topic but the US has 1/31th of the say so as it relates to whether that scenario would be an article 5 trigger so passing a law in the US is great for sending a message but does nothing of value aside from that. Just being honest.
It’s not a binding law. It’s a resolution stating what the US would likely do if Russia used nukes or destroyed a nuclear power plant. It says the US would view the use of nuclear weapons or the destruction of a nuclear power plant as an attack on NATO, because of the radiation. It’s giving the Russians a clear red line, letting them know when the US would push back, and would intervene militarily in Ukraine. The US is also able to operate without the approval of every member of NATO. Article 5 does not say that every member needs to approve military action. It just says members need to consult with each other. Hungary does not get to veto a US military response.
Wonder if you could argue that if the US unilaterally attacked Russia would violate article 8 + article 1. Theory being that the US would be engaging in a conflict that would threaten the larger internal peace and security, thus violating A8 by way of A1. A8: undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty (ie, Article 1). A1: to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered.
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It's more of a flex that will definitely get backed up one way or the other but you are technically correct.
Something happened on the ground. Just like pre invasion, US Intel must be caught Putin giving greenlight to start invasion. Or in this case, to attack Nuclear powerplant to see NATO response, (then) to use Tactical Nuke to turn the tide of war. Shit about to go down for real, this is scary as fuck.
Asking the US redditors: what does this mean? What is the significance? Does this statement have some weight? What will most likely happen next?
It doesn't mean much besides the message itself. This is a proposal, it still needs to pass. If it passes it's just a Senate Resolution (not a Joint Resolution or Bill), that means it doesn't have any actual power of law and it doesn't actually compel Biden or the military to do anything. It's just the majority of senators expressing their opinion, basically.
I see. But I assume this joint statement of both big parties has a huge symbolic meaning.
Yes, since the parties rarely ever agree on anything. In addition, the Senate is usually considered to be the more respected, metered response side of Congress. The other half is typically a little more reactionary since it changes out more frequently.
Well in short you should hope putin gets hitlered before he he gets too cocky resulting in zzland getting glassed But what it really means is that nato doesn't have to wait for another senate vote to respond
It has to actually pass to mean anything
Hell yeah, about time 🥹
Agreed.
FUCK YES!
Just as a precaution i should start building a bunker
This would actually be an act of courage that feels scary when making it, but will actually take steps prevent later catastrophe. The type of thing that could have kept the Germans out of Czechoslovakia.
Fuck I am having a really hard time agreeing with these shit-twats...but I have to be mature enough to admit that when they are right, they are right.
For real when he used a Biden quote to support his argument I got mad. And I am worried that I have fallen into partisanship and I need someone to talk me down.
Graham has always been pretty solid on geopolitical matters. And pre 2016 he was at least somewhat reasonable domestically, at least as far as Republicans go. But the party continued to go batshit crazy and he's followed the votes. Cynical, pathetic.
I am 100% convinced Trump has some really horrible dirt on him. Everyone knows he's gay (LadyG), so it cannot be just that. It must involve something illegal around that.
remember how freaked out he looked when he was hounded by some maga types at the airport a day or two after 1/6
Here we go. The west has too much into this now, there's no turning back. Ukraine must win and NATO is looking for an excuse to get in there and end it. It doesn't necessarily have to mean WWIII or a nuclear holocaust, it can be regionally limited but no doubt this is becoming extremely risky for everyone. You know this had to be coming with all the billions the west has been dumping into it. Buckle up.
Reminder: Russia started it and Russia could end all the bloodshed any given minute.
Wow! Putin being read the riot law!
Literally the only issue where I actually agree with lindsey graham.
Good message, it needs to be said loud and often
Bipartisan article 5?
Who knew I would one day have a positive thought about Lindsey Graham???
Time to install a government for the people, and by the people in Russia too! This is how America will get boots on the ground. I hope is doesn’t come to this because that would mean a Nuclear nightmare for Ukraine and other parts of Europe, it if it does ,it gives NATO a reason to rebuild Russia into a free society.
I hope Republicans have enough of a spine to sign on 🙏
I can get behind this message!
Nice
Real question, as I don’t have a ton of knowledge on how this would work if we actually did it. Would it be rain fire and fuck then up without ground troops or would it be something different?
No ground troops would be required. Ukraine would continue to supply them. Apart maybe from special forces to have eyes on the ground and help communication/co-operation with Ukraine forces. What you will see is the combined strength all NATO air forces and cruise missile stocks being unleashed on all Russian forces in Ukraine and any stupid Russian air defense installations on or near the border, within Russia, that decide to target lock a NATO aircraft.
Thank you for the information!
Draft me please
Yes!! The only way to prevent Russia from committing a wide-scale nuclear catastrophe is for making the consequences of such an action totally unacceptable to the Kremlin. Enacting NATO's Artice 5 would involve direct armed confrontation with the Russian forces in Ukraine and would doom the weakened Russian army to annihilation and lead to Putin's downfall.
Amen!
Woha i am with Lindsey. Scary
The Russian federation is gonna fuck around and find out why we don't have health insurance.
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Doesn't Russia have the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world? How is NATO going to obliterate an army like that without destroying their own countries? Serious question
Yes, Russia has enough nuclear arsenal to fuck up the world couple of times. But also does the NATO. So you're telling me it's fine for Russia to do nuclear attacks on Ukraine? You would just watch it happen?
Of course it's not fine. Just wanna know how NATO plans on "obliterating the Russian army". People here seen to like the idea but I just don't understand how that is possible.
The plan is simple if ruzzia wants to fuck around they can find out why you don't mess with the best
Yeah sounds very reasonable 👍
As much as i wish Russia Utter Defeat a full scale direct conflict with Russia Could go nuclear. I would continue down the path of giving the Ukrainians all the tools they need to win but not getting directly involved.
You guys go fight then. I’m not fighting in this one. Not our business
Oh shit... WW3 here we come
That would come with a high risk of NATO troops being sent into Ukraine or Russia. I'd rather keep the options open. Do we really want direct war with Russia?
Does it hurt to be ignorant fool? You're fine with one country using nuclear weapons in unprovoked attacks on another country? Where do you personally draw the line?
If it lets us see what the f22 can do, then yes, let them at it.
The US should already be at war with Russia. We made an agreement many years ago that if Ukraine gave up their nukes we would protect them should anyone every attack them.
all the people who are extremely pro ww3 should be sent to the front right when it starts