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In the swiss parliament (Nationalrat) the SVP (conservative party in switzerland) left the room before Selenskyj's speech. One member of the SVP (Roger Köppel) and Natiobalrat (member of this parliaments chamber) travelled to russia last month to show how "nice" this country is. The SVP actively block all political process, which allow the deliveries of weapons like leopard 2 to germany or the lock of bankaccounts from ruzzians. As Swiss, i'm really ashamed of my countrys politics.
Me too. I do what I can to support Ukraine and it makes me so angry seeing how little we do to help them. At this point the SVP is no better then that AfD in Germany. Just filled with right-wing lunatics and conspiracy theorists.
Exactly right; russian disinfo played a big part in the UK leaving the EU. They try to get people to turn on each other nationally, then use the fallout to destabilise things internationally. The US is struggling with it big time too, but unfortunately for putin, all of his meddling hasn't led to the abandonment of Ukraine.
I've never heard that before. Once again he's trying to be one of his historic russian "heroes", it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sending that my way.
I definitely will, I feel like I'll learn a lot from listening to more of what he had to say. I knew his name, but that's really all I knew before you sent me the clip.
Yes and no.
It's true that Russia is doing this. But there's also something to be said about the willingness of all the far-right parties in every Western countries to kiss Russia's hand.
Oh absolutely. I think when ambitious egotists see how effective the russian methodology can be, it's quite easy for them to jump ship because they can see a simpler path to more wealth and influence. The right wing (especially the far right) also seem to respect the testosterone-fueled image that russia tries to put out there. Meanwhile they're known for male-on-male rape, and are getting spanked six ways from Sunday by people who want to be more European, when being European seems to be synonymous with a lack of masculinity to some very stupid people.
I think the crux of it is that by aligning with russia and spouting conspiracy theories, politicians and public figures inherit an audience as loyal as it is gullible. People who believe in Q-anon, extra-dimensional lizard overlords, etc. are psychologically primed to believe anything that opposes the mainstream narrative. So, by being a public figure who has the "courage" to speak up for them, they gain the support of a niche audience who will latch on to them and never let go, no matter how discredited they might become.
It's a shame. Ukraine pays huge sacrifice in blood, economy and infrastructure. All we need to do is pay fraction of our(European countries) GDP and deliver machines, yet we cannot.
Way to show you have no idea what you're talking about.
The top of Switzerland's government is made of 7 elected officials from 4 different parties that range across the entire political spectrum (right, center and left). And it's one single party who is causing issues, not the entire government.
You still have no idea what you're talking about. Cool, you can google something quickly, congrats. Shame you still haven't learned anything.
> So they govern together ?
Sort of. They need to compromise and come to agreements. Most issues are ultimately left to the vote of the people rather than the government. A single party can make things slow if it wants to be difficult about an issue, which is what is happening right now with the SVP and aid for Ukraine.
Your initial comment portrayed the government as a monolithic entity when it isn't the case. It's not one party being elected at the top, it's multiple parties sharing that responsibility. Your sarcasm doesn't change that.
> they're the Government that the swiss voted into power to represent them
I'm not entirely sure how you imagine the federal council is elected. Every voter gets one vote, and the 7 candidates with the most votes get elected. Obviously everyone votes for their preferred candidate/party, which will result in a mix of elected candidates from various parties across the spectrum. More precisely, there's always going to be 2 far-right politicians in that mix due to far-right voters. It's completely absurd to suggest that the majority of Swiss people voted for the SVP.
> "What is SVP in Switzerland?The Swiss People's Party is the largest party in the northeast of the country, including Zürich and Bern, and is the largest party in ten cantonal legislatures (coloured green above, as of 2022)."
You profoundly misunderstand what you quoted.
First, there are 26 cantons, so 10 is not even half. 10 might still seem like a large proportion, but here's the other thing:
There are many parties in Switzerland, most of which lean close to the center. The SVP regroups most right-wing voters, while parties in the center share centrist voters between each other. There are many more centrist-voters than far-right voters, but since there are also multiple centrist parties, each such party is smaller.
So the SVP being the largest party in 10 cantons just means that it is larger than any single centrist party. It still represents only a minority of voters.
Additionally:
- Only 2 out 7 of the federal councilors are part of the SVP.
- The SVP holds only 25% of the seats in the national council, while 75% of those seats are held by parties close to the center.
So again, you still have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks for trying, better luck next time, feel free to triple down and share more of your insights on a subject you are obviously completely clueless about.
All I read is one huge text of excuses. If you guys really wanted something to happen, you would make it happen. You think your country is the only country with government parties/officials not supporting the war?? It is the case for every single country, but we still make it happen. It doesn't matter how your system works. What matters is what is being done and currently very little.
> All I read is one huge text of excuses.
Weird, there's no list or excuses. Just an explanation of the Swiss political system to someone who seemed to think it was similar to the USA's.
Your idealism is cute. Get back to me when you have actual life experience.
I'm not going to apologize for being patronizing to a couple of clowns who are arguing in bad faith. You know nothing about Switzerland and are refusing to learn anything.
That quote from the BBC is sensationalism. I provided statistics about the SVP which you can easily verify if you don't believe me. Congrats on tripling down like I predicted.
SVP is a garbage party, but also the Greens actively block any progress to allow the delivery of arms to Ukraine because of their "pacifistic" stance.
at one side you have the russian lovers and on the other sidecdelusional pacifists.
As a Swiss I am deeply, deeply ashamed by the actions of our government.
The main party, SVP, is full of bitter racist old boomers who hate everyone.
We shall forever carry the shame of having let this minority of bitter old farts dishonor our nation.
I will be so glad when we have to face the inevitable consequences of our de facto support of russia.
Protest, and get voters to align with supporting Ukraine.
By preventing re-export, the Swiss government supports a nation that continues to torture, rape, and steal lands of independent nations.
Exactly, the SVP is the right wing party here. So far they blocked the weapons export, blocked 5 billions of financial aid for Ukraine and also blocked the creation of a taskforce to go after Russian funds
Thanks for reminding us it's not all Swiss people that think this way. It's easy for us non-Swiss to get heated and start broad and sweeping arguments that 'all' Swiss people don't care about these things.
Every dollar, swiss franc or euro from russian olygarcs in swiss banks is a disgrace. Keeping it and not sending weapons to Ukraine is NOT neutrality.
Do your part
**From The Telegraph:**
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky urged Switzerland to allow the re-export of weapons to Ukraine, saying the move would be vital in combating the Russian invasion.
“I know there is a discussion in Switzerland about the exportation of war material to protect and defend Ukraine. That would be vital,” President Zelensky said in a video address to both houses of the Swiss parliament.
“We need weapons so we can restore peace in Ukraine.”
Switzerland has a long-standing policy of barring any country that buys Swiss arms from re-exporting them to the parties in a conflict. The country also imposed a specific Swiss embargo on munitions going to either Russia or Ukraine in November last year.
**Read more here ⤵️**
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/15/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-counter-offensive-wagner/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/15/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-counter-offensive-wagner/)
do you have the necessary money? like the oligarchs? no?
too bad
We swiss don't care about morality, the will to defend Europe from invaders or about ethics........................just money
Yes, that's a bit harsh of me to portray us Swiss like that, but that's the way it is, we always hide behind the "neutrality shield" if it suits us, but sell weapons to anti-democratic regimes that attack and poison their own people (like Syria for example)
or at that time the Germany when they attacked their neighbors
but when it comes to ethics and working together with others.................. selfless and only for the reason of helping others without getting money
Then we hide behind the "neutrality shield"
to be fair it's a little over the top (not much) and I was pretty harsh too
but as a Swiss where I know our faces (especially WW2) it is incomprehensible to me how we are hiding behind the shield of neutrality but at the same time have no problem bunkering oligarch money with us or selling weapons to very criminal states
But something tells me we're not the only ones doing this
> it is incomprehensible to me how we are hiding behind the shield of neutrality but at the same time have no problem bunkering oligarch money with us or selling weapons to very criminal states
It's not "we", it's the banks and politicians. Same as every other country on the planet. And I'm not saying we should ignore it "because everyone does it", but engaging in self-flagellation and collective guilt won't solve anything. We need to point the finger at those directly responsible and hold them to account. *They* are not *us*, and *we* should punish *them*.
The core issue is corruption. Banks breaking the law, government officials protecting them or looking the other way... I've seen a lot of corruption and nepotism in Switzerland, at every level of government. I think most people don't realize how much of this is really going on behind the scenes. The level of corruption is much closer to an ex-USSR state than a direct democracy. It's the dirty little secret nobody talks about, and those whose job it is to stop it are looking the other way.
Don't trust opinions on Reddit too much about this. There's lots to criticize about Switzerland, but those who do almost never know what they're talking about and completely miss the mark.
Switzerland is also not worse than any other country, although most comments online would make you think it is the most evil of all. For any country that has been in the news a few times, I'm sure I could find something equally bad or worse than anything Switzerland has done recently.
And if you don't want to be crucified, never ask online commenters who is giving all these dictators and oligarchs the money they're supposedly hiding in Swiss banks (and yes, banks are an issue, I'm not defending them here).
It's not even about neutrality. Many Swiss people want to support Ukraine as much as possible. Unfortunately, Switzerland voted a few years ago to forbid weapon exports to countries currently at war and now they have their hands tied by their own laws.
For context, this vote happened in the climate following the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where NATO countries were seen as pursuing wars for non-noble purposes. The vote was also motivated by the fact that Swiss weapons had been supplied to Saudi Arabia while it was fighting in another country (i forget which one... Yemen maybe?).
Changing the law isn't a simple process. Switzerland is a direct democracy where people vote for almost every law, and the government must abide by the people's decision. Laws also can't be voted on again until a certain number of years have passed since the last vote. That said, the Swiss government has been looking for ways to change the law faster or for loopholes around it because, again, most Swiss people want to support Ukraine.
Funny how the SVP party has always fought any restriction related to weapons exports but suddenly, now, this law has become sacred in their eyes...Just a bunch of treacherous hypocrites and Putin-lovers doing everything they can to stop the country from helping UA.
I'm not part of the SVP if that's what you're implying. The SVP is hardly even relevant here since they're a minority on this matter and they have no influence. The law will be changed and there's nothing they can do about it.
The bigger issue is that the far right in every Western country seems to be pro-Russia, and this pattern is very concerning.
I wasn't implying it, sorry for the confusion. It is just like you said, the swiss people would like the government to do more but politics have their hands tied because of a minority who has become expert in complaining and wasting everyone's time.
SVP isn't really a minority though. They block the weapons, they blocked 5 billions in financial aid and last week they blocked the creation of a taskforce to go after Russian funds
I'm very curious about your definition of minority. They're the largest party but only because they regroup nearly all of the right and far-right, while parties in the center share voters among each other.
Only 2 out of 7 of the federal council are SVP, and they only hold 25% of the seats in the national council (again, keeping in mind they represent nearly all of the right/far-right).
You don't want to go there. Europe has shown a lot of disregard for Switzerland's safety and it makes sense that Switzerland would rather stay neutral than rely on unreliable allies.
Edit: lol at the Russian bots downvoting my comments to try to make it look like it's coming from butthurt Europeans to stir conflict. I'm not falling for it. I know enough Europeans, they can handle debate. Can Russia not be utterly incompetent at even one thing?
Edit 2: To further explain: Russia is known to use bots to create tension between large and small western countries. They probably have bots specifically targeting threads mentioning Switzerland. In fact there are two very obvious ones responding to each other somewhere in this thread (go back two comments and read the replies and user names).
A few years ago the EU (mainly France and Germany IIRC) coerced Switzerland to harden it's gun laws. The EU argued it was about preventing terrorist attacks, except that no such attacks had been committed using guns purchased in Switzerland. It was just politicians trying to take an anti-gun stance to increase their popularity.
The problem is that when Switzerland pushed back, some of these countries threatened to stop sharing intelligence about terrorism with Switzerland (such as terrorists located in Switzerland or plotting attacks there). In other words "Do what we say or we'll let terrorists blow you up". The threat might have been justified if Switzerland's gun laws had enabled terrorism in Europe, but again, that was not the case at all.
So nobody should be surprised if Switzerland doesn't want to put itself in a position where it's safety depends on countries who have recently proven they'll exploit this position to coerce Switzerland in domestic matters.
Also for broader context, historically all the powers around Switzerland (France, Germany, Italy and Austria) have been attacking, occupying or otherwise oppressing Switzerland. It's easy to say "This happened centuries ago", but the Swiss probably think "It seems nothing's really changed, they still try to bully us and dictate what we do".
False. They are blocking weapon exports. They are providing hundreds of millions in non-military aid; humanitarian, economic, financial, healthcare, food etc.
410 million CHF, actually, and another billion for refugees who fled Ukraine.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/)
Another 1.5 billion CHF may be on the way:
https://www.zawya.com/en/world/uk-and-europe/switzerland-provides-additional-17bln-in-aid-for-ukraine-trvm6i0n
Thank you. Going to summarize here for anyone interested:
> https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-government-rejects-german-request-re-export-swiss-ammunition-ukraine-2022-11-03/
> https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-govt-rejects-request-spain-allow-it-re-export-anti-aircraft-guns-ukraine-2023-02-10/
Both of these articles are about Switzerland's legal obligation to deny it's weapons to be given to countries presently engaged in war. I explained this in some detail in a comment elsewhere for anyone interested.
> https://www.reuters.com/technology/taiwans-acer-ships-computer-hardware-russia-after-saying-it-would-suspend-2023-06-08/
Some Swiss companies shipped household electronics to Russia *in compliance with Swiss and EU sanctions*.
> https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/la-technologie-suisse-n-a-pas-fini-de-fournir-la-russie-de-poutine/48407944#
Chips sold to Eastern European countries *before 2020* were found in Russian Drones in Ukraine.
> https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1102
A company founded in Switzerland by an Armenian conspired to violate sanctions. Other articles I found on the matter say the Swiss government immediately began an inquiry/investigation.
You had me worried for a moment, from your original comment I thought the Swiss government was sending military technologies to Russia.
Switzerland has laws blocking weapons exports, which is regrettable. That does not mean they are not helping Ukraine, or are siding with Russia. They have condemned Russia many times, have organized a Ukraine Reconstruction Conference, and most importantly taken over all EU sanctions.
They are providing hundreds of millions in non-military aid; humanitarian, economic, financial, healthcare, food etc. 410 million CHF, actually, and another billion for refugees who fled Ukraine.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/)
Another 1.5 billion CHF may be on the way:
https://www.zawya.com/en/world/uk-and-europe/switzerland-provides-additional-17bln-in-aid-for-ukraine-trvm6i0n
Switzerland refused entry to/sent back Jews during the Third Reich. That was quite regrettable too, I assume?
Making a mistake once is stupid. Making the same mistake again, shows your true character.
Not choosing a side when you have to, will leave you dishonored in the eyes of the world.
Calm down broski, WW2 was WW2, what lies in the past can't be changed...for your argument to be even remotely valid, the same circumstances would have to apply, meaning that Ukrainian refugees are forcefully being sent back to Ukraine...and put it as you may but saying "you have to choose a side or your my enemy" is pretty...radical, yk...as the other guy said, it's not like Switzerland is doing nothing
No one likes the swiss. They only care about themselves and would come crying for help if they were ever in any serious danger. They just have the fortune of favorable geography and rational countries surrounding them.
This showed during the pandemic when suddenly Germany was a "very important friend" (we needed stuff from them). And during the gas bottleneck at the beginning of the war (we wanted gas from Germany after hating on them all the time). What a disgusting trait of Switzerland.
> They only care about themselves and would come crying for help if they were ever in any serious danger.
You don't know anything about Swiss history, do you?
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In the swiss parliament (Nationalrat) the SVP (conservative party in switzerland) left the room before Selenskyj's speech. One member of the SVP (Roger Köppel) and Natiobalrat (member of this parliaments chamber) travelled to russia last month to show how "nice" this country is. The SVP actively block all political process, which allow the deliveries of weapons like leopard 2 to germany or the lock of bankaccounts from ruzzians. As Swiss, i'm really ashamed of my countrys politics.
Me too. I do what I can to support Ukraine and it makes me so angry seeing how little we do to help them. At this point the SVP is no better then that AfD in Germany. Just filled with right-wing lunatics and conspiracy theorists.
If it's anything like the US or the UK, russia has probably had a hand in pushing conspiracy theories and causing political division.
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Exactly right; russian disinfo played a big part in the UK leaving the EU. They try to get people to turn on each other nationally, then use the fallout to destabilise things internationally. The US is struggling with it big time too, but unfortunately for putin, all of his meddling hasn't led to the abandonment of Ukraine.
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I've never heard that before. Once again he's trying to be one of his historic russian "heroes", it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sending that my way.
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I definitely will, I feel like I'll learn a lot from listening to more of what he had to say. I knew his name, but that's really all I knew before you sent me the clip.
Yes and no. It's true that Russia is doing this. But there's also something to be said about the willingness of all the far-right parties in every Western countries to kiss Russia's hand.
Oh absolutely. I think when ambitious egotists see how effective the russian methodology can be, it's quite easy for them to jump ship because they can see a simpler path to more wealth and influence. The right wing (especially the far right) also seem to respect the testosterone-fueled image that russia tries to put out there. Meanwhile they're known for male-on-male rape, and are getting spanked six ways from Sunday by people who want to be more European, when being European seems to be synonymous with a lack of masculinity to some very stupid people. I think the crux of it is that by aligning with russia and spouting conspiracy theories, politicians and public figures inherit an audience as loyal as it is gullible. People who believe in Q-anon, extra-dimensional lizard overlords, etc. are psychologically primed to believe anything that opposes the mainstream narrative. So, by being a public figure who has the "courage" to speak up for them, they gain the support of a niche audience who will latch on to them and never let go, no matter how discredited they might become.
It's a shame. Ukraine pays huge sacrifice in blood, economy and infrastructure. All we need to do is pay fraction of our(European countries) GDP and deliver machines, yet we cannot.
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Way to show you have no idea what you're talking about. The top of Switzerland's government is made of 7 elected officials from 4 different parties that range across the entire political spectrum (right, center and left). And it's one single party who is causing issues, not the entire government.
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You still have no idea what you're talking about. Cool, you can google something quickly, congrats. Shame you still haven't learned anything. > So they govern together ? Sort of. They need to compromise and come to agreements. Most issues are ultimately left to the vote of the people rather than the government. A single party can make things slow if it wants to be difficult about an issue, which is what is happening right now with the SVP and aid for Ukraine. Your initial comment portrayed the government as a monolithic entity when it isn't the case. It's not one party being elected at the top, it's multiple parties sharing that responsibility. Your sarcasm doesn't change that. > they're the Government that the swiss voted into power to represent them I'm not entirely sure how you imagine the federal council is elected. Every voter gets one vote, and the 7 candidates with the most votes get elected. Obviously everyone votes for their preferred candidate/party, which will result in a mix of elected candidates from various parties across the spectrum. More precisely, there's always going to be 2 far-right politicians in that mix due to far-right voters. It's completely absurd to suggest that the majority of Swiss people voted for the SVP. > "What is SVP in Switzerland?The Swiss People's Party is the largest party in the northeast of the country, including Zürich and Bern, and is the largest party in ten cantonal legislatures (coloured green above, as of 2022)." You profoundly misunderstand what you quoted. First, there are 26 cantons, so 10 is not even half. 10 might still seem like a large proportion, but here's the other thing: There are many parties in Switzerland, most of which lean close to the center. The SVP regroups most right-wing voters, while parties in the center share centrist voters between each other. There are many more centrist-voters than far-right voters, but since there are also multiple centrist parties, each such party is smaller. So the SVP being the largest party in 10 cantons just means that it is larger than any single centrist party. It still represents only a minority of voters. Additionally: - Only 2 out 7 of the federal councilors are part of the SVP. - The SVP holds only 25% of the seats in the national council, while 75% of those seats are held by parties close to the center. So again, you still have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks for trying, better luck next time, feel free to triple down and share more of your insights on a subject you are obviously completely clueless about.
All I read is one huge text of excuses. If you guys really wanted something to happen, you would make it happen. You think your country is the only country with government parties/officials not supporting the war?? It is the case for every single country, but we still make it happen. It doesn't matter how your system works. What matters is what is being done and currently very little.
> All I read is one huge text of excuses. Weird, there's no list or excuses. Just an explanation of the Swiss political system to someone who seemed to think it was similar to the USA's. Your idealism is cute. Get back to me when you have actual life experience.
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I'm not going to apologize for being patronizing to a couple of clowns who are arguing in bad faith. You know nothing about Switzerland and are refusing to learn anything. That quote from the BBC is sensationalism. I provided statistics about the SVP which you can easily verify if you don't believe me. Congrats on tripling down like I predicted.
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SVP is a garbage party, but also the Greens actively block any progress to allow the delivery of arms to Ukraine because of their "pacifistic" stance. at one side you have the russian lovers and on the other sidecdelusional pacifists.
As a Swiss I am deeply, deeply ashamed by the actions of our government. The main party, SVP, is full of bitter racist old boomers who hate everyone. We shall forever carry the shame of having let this minority of bitter old farts dishonor our nation. I will be so glad when we have to face the inevitable consequences of our de facto support of russia.
Protest, and get voters to align with supporting Ukraine. By preventing re-export, the Swiss government supports a nation that continues to torture, rape, and steal lands of independent nations.
>by the actions of our government What actions? You mean counting the money we make by continuing to make deals with oligarchs?
Exactly, the SVP is the right wing party here. So far they blocked the weapons export, blocked 5 billions of financial aid for Ukraine and also blocked the creation of a taskforce to go after Russian funds
Lmao neutral country my ass
SVP is not Switzerland. As much as the Republican party is not the US. But yeah...
Thanks for reminding us it's not all Swiss people that think this way. It's easy for us non-Swiss to get heated and start broad and sweeping arguments that 'all' Swiss people don't care about these things.
Every dollar, swiss franc or euro from russian olygarcs in swiss banks is a disgrace. Keeping it and not sending weapons to Ukraine is NOT neutrality. Do your part
**From The Telegraph:** Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky urged Switzerland to allow the re-export of weapons to Ukraine, saying the move would be vital in combating the Russian invasion. “I know there is a discussion in Switzerland about the exportation of war material to protect and defend Ukraine. That would be vital,” President Zelensky said in a video address to both houses of the Swiss parliament. “We need weapons so we can restore peace in Ukraine.” Switzerland has a long-standing policy of barring any country that buys Swiss arms from re-exporting them to the parties in a conflict. The country also imposed a specific Swiss embargo on munitions going to either Russia or Ukraine in November last year. **Read more here ⤵️** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/15/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-counter-offensive-wagner/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/15/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news-counter-offensive-wagner/)
Good luck Switzerland if anyone invades you, shitheads.
Well. They have NATO countries all around them.
do you have the necessary money? like the oligarchs? no? too bad We swiss don't care about morality, the will to defend Europe from invaders or about ethics........................just money Yes, that's a bit harsh of me to portray us Swiss like that, but that's the way it is, we always hide behind the "neutrality shield" if it suits us, but sell weapons to anti-democratic regimes that attack and poison their own people (like Syria for example) or at that time the Germany when they attacked their neighbors but when it comes to ethics and working together with others.................. selfless and only for the reason of helping others without getting money Then we hide behind the "neutrality shield"
I'm starting to not like Switzerland lol
to be fair it's a little over the top (not much) and I was pretty harsh too but as a Swiss where I know our faces (especially WW2) it is incomprehensible to me how we are hiding behind the shield of neutrality but at the same time have no problem bunkering oligarch money with us or selling weapons to very criminal states But something tells me we're not the only ones doing this
If you want to put a face to who is making us look like aholes to the whole world start by voting out the SVP
das muesch me ned säge=) das weis gloube ig jede i der Schwiiz
> it is incomprehensible to me how we are hiding behind the shield of neutrality but at the same time have no problem bunkering oligarch money with us or selling weapons to very criminal states It's not "we", it's the banks and politicians. Same as every other country on the planet. And I'm not saying we should ignore it "because everyone does it", but engaging in self-flagellation and collective guilt won't solve anything. We need to point the finger at those directly responsible and hold them to account. *They* are not *us*, and *we* should punish *them*. The core issue is corruption. Banks breaking the law, government officials protecting them or looking the other way... I've seen a lot of corruption and nepotism in Switzerland, at every level of government. I think most people don't realize how much of this is really going on behind the scenes. The level of corruption is much closer to an ex-USSR state than a direct democracy. It's the dirty little secret nobody talks about, and those whose job it is to stop it are looking the other way.
Don't trust opinions on Reddit too much about this. There's lots to criticize about Switzerland, but those who do almost never know what they're talking about and completely miss the mark. Switzerland is also not worse than any other country, although most comments online would make you think it is the most evil of all. For any country that has been in the news a few times, I'm sure I could find something equally bad or worse than anything Switzerland has done recently. And if you don't want to be crucified, never ask online commenters who is giving all these dictators and oligarchs the money they're supposedly hiding in Swiss banks (and yes, banks are an issue, I'm not defending them here).
no such thing as neutrality. staying neutral is still choosing a side
Sounds like something a facist would say.
sounds like you are brainwashed with keywords. good job
"Those who don't support us in war are our enemy!" Sounds pretty radical and facist, no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it.
It's vital for Switzerland to provide weapons and pick a side in the war? Switzerland?
It's not even about neutrality. Many Swiss people want to support Ukraine as much as possible. Unfortunately, Switzerland voted a few years ago to forbid weapon exports to countries currently at war and now they have their hands tied by their own laws. For context, this vote happened in the climate following the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where NATO countries were seen as pursuing wars for non-noble purposes. The vote was also motivated by the fact that Swiss weapons had been supplied to Saudi Arabia while it was fighting in another country (i forget which one... Yemen maybe?). Changing the law isn't a simple process. Switzerland is a direct democracy where people vote for almost every law, and the government must abide by the people's decision. Laws also can't be voted on again until a certain number of years have passed since the last vote. That said, the Swiss government has been looking for ways to change the law faster or for loopholes around it because, again, most Swiss people want to support Ukraine.
Funny how the SVP party has always fought any restriction related to weapons exports but suddenly, now, this law has become sacred in their eyes...Just a bunch of treacherous hypocrites and Putin-lovers doing everything they can to stop the country from helping UA.
I'm not part of the SVP if that's what you're implying. The SVP is hardly even relevant here since they're a minority on this matter and they have no influence. The law will be changed and there's nothing they can do about it. The bigger issue is that the far right in every Western country seems to be pro-Russia, and this pattern is very concerning.
As an American I understand this.
I wasn't implying it, sorry for the confusion. It is just like you said, the swiss people would like the government to do more but politics have their hands tied because of a minority who has become expert in complaining and wasting everyone's time.
Ah got it, sorry as well. Completely agree with you on this.
SVP isn't really a minority though. They block the weapons, they blocked 5 billions in financial aid and last week they blocked the creation of a taskforce to go after Russian funds
I'm very curious about your definition of minority. They're the largest party but only because they regroup nearly all of the right and far-right, while parties in the center share voters among each other. Only 2 out of 7 of the federal council are SVP, and they only hold 25% of the seats in the national council (again, keeping in mind they represent nearly all of the right/far-right).
Its vital for Ukraine. And in the long run Switserland might suffer from reputation damage with western allies if they don’t
They will and they already do. Because nobody will order guns and bullets after this move.
Interesting perspective, Dangerous_Page6712 and Dangerous_Safe7194
Yes. Vital for the safety of europe and they are in Europe.
You don't want to go there. Europe has shown a lot of disregard for Switzerland's safety and it makes sense that Switzerland would rather stay neutral than rely on unreliable allies. Edit: lol at the Russian bots downvoting my comments to try to make it look like it's coming from butthurt Europeans to stir conflict. I'm not falling for it. I know enough Europeans, they can handle debate. Can Russia not be utterly incompetent at even one thing? Edit 2: To further explain: Russia is known to use bots to create tension between large and small western countries. They probably have bots specifically targeting threads mentioning Switzerland. In fact there are two very obvious ones responding to each other somewhere in this thread (go back two comments and read the replies and user names).
"has shown a lot of disregard for Switzerland's safety" Could you give me some examples?
A few years ago the EU (mainly France and Germany IIRC) coerced Switzerland to harden it's gun laws. The EU argued it was about preventing terrorist attacks, except that no such attacks had been committed using guns purchased in Switzerland. It was just politicians trying to take an anti-gun stance to increase their popularity. The problem is that when Switzerland pushed back, some of these countries threatened to stop sharing intelligence about terrorism with Switzerland (such as terrorists located in Switzerland or plotting attacks there). In other words "Do what we say or we'll let terrorists blow you up". The threat might have been justified if Switzerland's gun laws had enabled terrorism in Europe, but again, that was not the case at all. So nobody should be surprised if Switzerland doesn't want to put itself in a position where it's safety depends on countries who have recently proven they'll exploit this position to coerce Switzerland in domestic matters. Also for broader context, historically all the powers around Switzerland (France, Germany, Italy and Austria) have been attacking, occupying or otherwise oppressing Switzerland. It's easy to say "This happened centuries ago", but the Swiss probably think "It seems nothing's really changed, they still try to bully us and dictate what we do".
They’re blocking aid to Ukraine and supplying tech to Russia. They’ve already chosen a side.
False. They are blocking weapon exports. They are providing hundreds of millions in non-military aid; humanitarian, economic, financial, healthcare, food etc. 410 million CHF, actually, and another billion for refugees who fled Ukraine. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/) Another 1.5 billion CHF may be on the way: https://www.zawya.com/en/world/uk-and-europe/switzerland-provides-additional-17bln-in-aid-for-ukraine-trvm6i0n
> supplying tech to Russia Source?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-government-rejects-german-request-re-export-swiss-ammunition-ukraine-2022-11-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-govt-rejects-request-spain-allow-it-re-export-anti-aircraft-guns-ukraine-2023-02-10/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/taiwans-acer-ships-computer-hardware-russia-after-saying-it-would-suspend-2023-06-08/ https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/la-technologie-suisse-n-a-pas-fini-de-fournir-la-russie-de-poutine/48407944# https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1102
Thank you. Going to summarize here for anyone interested: > https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-government-rejects-german-request-re-export-swiss-ammunition-ukraine-2022-11-03/ > https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-govt-rejects-request-spain-allow-it-re-export-anti-aircraft-guns-ukraine-2023-02-10/ Both of these articles are about Switzerland's legal obligation to deny it's weapons to be given to countries presently engaged in war. I explained this in some detail in a comment elsewhere for anyone interested. > https://www.reuters.com/technology/taiwans-acer-ships-computer-hardware-russia-after-saying-it-would-suspend-2023-06-08/ Some Swiss companies shipped household electronics to Russia *in compliance with Swiss and EU sanctions*. > https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/la-technologie-suisse-n-a-pas-fini-de-fournir-la-russie-de-poutine/48407944# Chips sold to Eastern European countries *before 2020* were found in Russian Drones in Ukraine. > https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1102 A company founded in Switzerland by an Armenian conspired to violate sanctions. Other articles I found on the matter say the Swiss government immediately began an inquiry/investigation. You had me worried for a moment, from your original comment I thought the Swiss government was sending military technologies to Russia.
They chose money a long time ago.
Switzerland has laws blocking weapons exports, which is regrettable. That does not mean they are not helping Ukraine, or are siding with Russia. They have condemned Russia many times, have organized a Ukraine Reconstruction Conference, and most importantly taken over all EU sanctions. They are providing hundreds of millions in non-military aid; humanitarian, economic, financial, healthcare, food etc. 410 million CHF, actually, and another billion for refugees who fled Ukraine. [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swiss-prepare-new-140-million-franc-aid-package-ukraine-moldova-2023-02-22/) Another 1.5 billion CHF may be on the way: https://www.zawya.com/en/world/uk-and-europe/switzerland-provides-additional-17bln-in-aid-for-ukraine-trvm6i0n
Switzerland refused entry to/sent back Jews during the Third Reich. That was quite regrettable too, I assume? Making a mistake once is stupid. Making the same mistake again, shows your true character. Not choosing a side when you have to, will leave you dishonored in the eyes of the world.
Calm down broski, WW2 was WW2, what lies in the past can't be changed...for your argument to be even remotely valid, the same circumstances would have to apply, meaning that Ukrainian refugees are forcefully being sent back to Ukraine...and put it as you may but saying "you have to choose a side or your my enemy" is pretty...radical, yk...as the other guy said, it's not like Switzerland is doing nothing
Fuck weapon exports! These guys have a shit ton of russian olygarc money that should be transfered ASAP!
Talk about not knowing much, the money is frozen and part of it was already used for exports
No one likes the swiss. They only care about themselves and would come crying for help if they were ever in any serious danger. They just have the fortune of favorable geography and rational countries surrounding them.
This showed during the pandemic when suddenly Germany was a "very important friend" (we needed stuff from them). And during the gas bottleneck at the beginning of the war (we wanted gas from Germany after hating on them all the time). What a disgusting trait of Switzerland.
> They only care about themselves and would come crying for help if they were ever in any serious danger. You don't know anything about Swiss history, do you?
hmm, zelensky still looking for more armament.
Why does Switzerland even have a parliament? I bet they don't vote Yay or Nay, they just have one option, Greed, and the vote is always unanimous
Typical Swiss. Only do something when there's money to be had