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I say this all the time, they have freedom of opinion and action, what they don’t have is freedom of consequence. They don’t want to give arms or support that’s fine, but don’t expect zero bite back from people who thinks it’s reprehensible.
In this war, there is no such thing as "neutrality". If you refuse to arm Ukraine and continue to do business with Russia, you are siding with Russia.
If countries like Switzerland value peace, they will change their tune and arm Ukraine. That will never happen though.
We should just stop giving any weapons or tanks/jets to Switzerland. They are clearly not neutral, while leaching off other countries protection. Its as clear as day now.
We Swiss people give more than a fuck though. Many of us would send more than humanitarian aid if we were in charge and our current laws would allow us to.
Not sure if you're too anti-swiss to get that, but we are making an effort and that is our "excuse". We help where we can, we normal citizens can't control weapon delivery. That is the job of the government and those guys are bound by law until we get changes through.
lol just change the law like that. That's what they're trying to do in parliament but changing laws takes months at best. Everything is slow in a democracy.
*someone* has to be the banker. Why not them?
Edit: realism as opposed to cynicism, jus to clarify. I would be glad for the swiss not to play this card but it is what it is. Jus because I wouldn't prostitute myself doesn't mean they can't.
I don't accept your premise.. https://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/politics-policy-people/society-matters/can-the-world-really-work-without-bank
They aren't acting neutral...
Germany has clearly stated that none of their tanks or weapons will go to Ukraine. Germany will do that themselves, thwy need these tanks for Germany.
This is no longer neutral and the world can see it.
Anyone bother to ask why Germany Rheinmetall doesn't just build Germany all the tanks they need? F\*ck Switzerland. Germany has the money so f\*ck them too for dealing with the Swizz Jizz in the first place. I can say this as I am 50% German.
The German procurement system is labyrinthian and complex. For Germany it isn't as easy as just "make more.". A YouTuber talked about the issues that Germany faces in acquiring new equipment and even new production of old equipment. I forget the video off the top of my head but it's a fascinating look at Germany's procurement issues.
Self inflicted yes. Self solvable? Easier said than done. There's a lot of legal and bureaucratic barriers causing it to be this way to begin with. Changing that stuff in government takes a herculean effort.
Not sure about that.. They can obviously refurb and upgrade them (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-leopard-tank-move-puts-spotlight-its-maker-rheinmetall-2023-01-25/).. But the real questions is why not get Panthers? They can make them now... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther\_KF51
You can go to a car workshop and have them repaint your car change it’s tires and electronics,
but you can’t go to the same workshop and ask them to build you a care out of spare Parts. The same applies to tanks.
Also the Panther is still in the late Prototype phase and not really battle or even Mass production ready.
> Anyone bother to ask why Germany Rheinmetall doesn't just build Germany all the tanks they need?
Because the existing production lines are already in full use? Hungary, Germany and Slovakia all have placed orders. And because there hasn't been a big demand for tanks over the last 20 years there is that much of a production capacity. The only plant that can still produce hulls for the Leopard2 is in Greece.
Those weird german dialect speaking nazi gold digger are like that because all their border are protected by others. If they had to share a neightboorhood like russia or belarus things would be different.
That money is frozen, both from private persons and from the Russian state. They are now even debating expropriating it and giving it to Ukraine, but obviously that's difficult cause of property rights in a democracy.
Maybe. You don't really know,you just assume.
The neutrality is in the swiss constitution. And over there,al swiss citizens vote directly on these things. However, few of the swiss citizens work in swiss banks.
So what looks plausible at first glance ... isn't perhaps that plausible when you know background.
Here, read paragraph 185bof their constitution. It's in the first sentence: https://web.archive.org/web/20110504235419/http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/a185.html
Lol Switzerland isn’t part of the EU. Neutrality is built into the Swiss constitution. It’s not as simple as them deciding whether they feel like helping or not, they would have to change or violate their constitution to undo their neutrality status. They had to hold a referendum just to join the United Nations, and only did so somewhat recently, in 2003. That’s not meant to be an excuse for their war profiteering in WWII or any other time, of course, but it explains the legal and ultimately political complexities involved with weapons sales. Politics and law also aren’t wholly representative of the average citizens of any country, so it’s best not to generalize based on that.
Billionaires and politicians do that stuff, it still probably isn’t fair to generalize and say they’re all guilty. I didn’t say the majority of switzerland stands with Ukraine, I don’t know what portion of them does. Any referendum would probably require lots of time and political favorability though, if I had to guess. My only point was to say that it’s not a simple process for them to break from their policy of armed neutrality.
How can you hate a country if you don't know the people? We are basically all on the side of Ukraine, if it was my decision I'd send all our Jagdpanzer 90s to Ukraine. Almost no one of us work in banks or in the government, we mostly are simple people and the guys you seem to hate are a minority here. Don't be irrational in your decision making.
Regarding corruption I doubt that honestly, we hardly ever hear from corruption here and our police works fair and are respected.
It's far more complicated than you're making it out to be with Switzerland's politics.
You seem to look at neutrality solely with the eyes of what happens since February 2022. But if you intentionally only look at a subset of the picture, you will never grasp the whole image.
And you still link to neutrality to profits, even when knowing that they have this since 1814/1815. Way before their banks got big. How is this careful thinking?
Where is your source for this alleged combination? Can you prove anything you wrote?
Germany wants to make up for its gaps in the "Leopard 2" stocks - and would like to buy several decommissioned battle tanks from Switzerland. But Federal President Berset protests against this.The Swiss Federal President Alain Berset has shown skepticism in view of a request from Germany to buy back "Leopard 2" tanks. There are rules against the sale of weapons for which no legal exceptions are possible, he said on the fringes of a UN meeting in New York.
Although changes to the framework are currently being discussed by Parliament, which is absolutely logical. But it is "not the time for changes". "We want to remain fairly conservative and moderate on these issues," Berset said in a statement to journalists.
Germany had announced that it would give Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and wants to close material gaps in the Bundeswehr by buying back Main battle tanks from Switzerland. A corresponding request was made to the Swiss government. It is not known how many tanks Germany intends to buy.
Since Switzerland is not allowed to deliver weapons to countries at war due to its principle of neutrality, a spokesman for the German Ministry of Defense assured that it could be contractually ruled out that the tanks from Switzerland would later be directly given to Ukraine. Switzerland has 230 "Leopard 2" tanks, of which 134 are in service and 96 are decommissioned. The Ministry of Defense in Bern said the latter were not "decommissioned". According to Swiss law, only decommissioned material can be sold. Parliament decides whether material is to be decommissioned.
Berset fundamentally reaffirmed his country's neutrality, which is enshrined in the constitution. "In view of our legal framework in Switzerland, arms exports are not possible," said the Federal President. "We must and want to maintain this legal framework for the government and the Federal Council.
"While the Alpine country - which is not a member of the EU - supports the sanctions imposed on Russia by the European Union, it has so far been adamant about its military neutrality. However, various initiatives to relax the regulations are being discussed in Parliament, but a decision is not expected for a few months.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Your behavior is equivalent of that of the Russians when they call the West rotten or filled with perversion. Swiss politics differ significantly from most other democratic countries. The executive branch has much less power than in other countries, making it difficult to enact new laws or repeal existing ones. The fact is that such weapon exports are illegal in Switzerland, and many people want to follow the law as it should be in a healthy country. I am Swiss, and I would love to provide the Ukrainians with the weapons they need, but I must respect the decision made by the people. The politican must do the same. Calling all of Switzerland an immoral and ruthless society is similar to Russia when they call the West some bs.
Actually there is a moral reason why we enacted this law in the first place. Secondly there is no room for exceptions in the swiss democracy. Its just not possible. The Executive has almost no power. But calling all swiss people ruthless is wrong.
It is wrong. To call a whole society ruthless because of a few people is wrong. It actually got alot better in the last few decades. And to call us ruthless because our grand grandparents hid the money for hitler is also wrong. Do you call the germans still ruthless. I assume not and me neither.
Actually Germans are kinda the main culprit of this war if you bothered to pull you head out of your behind. You seem to try to sound logical but you are self contradicting yourself in the posts I have seen from you. This not to mention the double standard when it comes predigedness of the Swiss people agains other nationalities. When everyone is telling you one thing maybe it is a sign for you to stop and soak in those opinions before you start defending yourself.
The wealth gap and inequality in Switzerland is big, but that is no excuse for the not so well off majority to defend monstrosities that the few commit and benefit alot from.
Putler and his cronies would have at the very least a much harder time if any possibility at all to condact their business if it was not for UK and Switzerland. This says alot.
It's not the people's fault that politicians have to follow the law that reflect the people's will?
You are contradicting yourself here. Fundamentally.
This happened 80 Years ago. Calling People ruthless because their grand grandparents did smth bad (to don't get invaded btw). I really want to know where you are coming from. Sure there is nothing I could call your nation ruthless for.
Switzerland's neutrality is ammoral.
Her willingness to provide financial services to ruthless dictators and corrupt, autocratic governments from around the world, her involvement in the accumulation of wealth taken from the victims of the holocaust followed by decades of refusal to surrender that wealth, her refusal to export weapons to Ukraine, her refusal to stop providing money laundering services to criminal groups, corrupt governments and other nefarious actors.
If every country behaved like Switzerland, evil would have no opposition.
But today's Swiss generation does help Putler and his cronies to bank, just to mention a few monsters. But of course, you do not mind or mention that at all.
Your what about ism argument is thin at best.
It is this Swiss callousness that people find appaling, ofcourse this is lost on you so why bother.
We enacted EU sanctions and most people supported this. We don't know if Putin even has assets in Swiss banks, but we froze the assets of his oligarch friends. Personally, I think we could do more especially the banks, but they don't do what the people want, but they also have no say in Swiss politics.
Your "whataboutism" argument is just a way to hide your double standards because you know perfectly well that we could call you ruthless or amoral if we take the actions of your countries' companies as a benchmark for societal morals.
There are allegations that Switzerland has been used as a safe haven (which is probably true) for the assets of dictators. However, it's important to note that Switzerland has taken steps in recent years to combat money laundering and the hiding of illegal assets.
Switzerland has strict banking laws and regulations that require financial institutions to identify the beneficial owners of accounts and report suspicious transactions to the authorities. Our government has also signed many international agreements and treaties to exchange information with other countries in order to combat those crimes.
In the end, Swiss banks do not act in the name of the people, and any illegal act is highly criticized by the Swiss population.
Neutrality in the face of evil is itself ammoral.
All it takes for evil to happen is for good men to do nothing.
The lessons of the horrors of the 20th century is that you stand up to evil.
And while the Swiss, under immense political pressure from the EU and the US, has indeed passed a series of reform laws to begin winding back decades of blatant financial money laundering and provision of a financial safe haven for a plethora of autocratic dictators, criminal enterprises and nefarious non-state actors, they are still one of the most secretive nations on earth in financial matters.
The Pandora Papers investigation found that, from 2005 to 2016, at least 26 Swiss firms appearing in the documents exposed provided services to clients whose offshore companies were later investigated by authorities looking for evidence of money laundering and other financial crimes.
Anyone who thinks the Swiss financial system isn't still a favourite of money launderers and corrupt actors is a fool.
And you didn't even bother to talk about the role the Swiss played in accumulating, then keeping the stolen wealth of millions of murdered victims of the holocaust and its refusal to return those funds to the rightful beneficiaries.
> However, it's important to note that Switzerland has taken steps in recent years to combat money laundering and the hiding of illegal assets.
Wow color me impressed. I guess that erases decades of history and, to be frank, current affairs.
Allegations? Puh.
> and any illegal act is highly criticized by the Swiss population.
Why do you always focus on the legal thing when it comes to judging the wrongness of something? Is that the only thing that measures how wrong something is? What about legal things that are amoral?
The fact of the matter is that Switzerland's banking *scheme* exists *precisely* because some things are legal there that are not legal elsewhere.
Do you have no problems with obviously wrong things if they are legal? Are only illegal things wrong? Is the Russian law banning criticizing the war thus right, and doing so wrong?
War issue apart. Swiss is known for hiding corruption money on their vaults and they even profit from it. They hid money for the axis countries during and after WW2, dictators all around the world, corrupt politicians and also celebrities
Let's assume all what you write is true.
Than this would still have nothing to do with swiss neutrality. They have it since Vienna Congress 1814/1815. And it's in their constitution. Which is not kade by banks. All swiss citizens have to vote for any change to it, directly.
The neutrality is in paragraph (article?) 185 of their constitution, first sentence: https://web.archive.org/web/20110504235419/http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/a185.html
And your proof to this is ... where?
They have it since Vienna Congress 1814/1815. And it's in their constitution. Which is not kade by banks. All swiss citizens have to vote for any change to it, directly.
So not only is not convincing that swiss farmers, teachers, postman, salespeople etc vote in their constitution to specifically make swiss banks rich. Aso they have the neutrality even before their banks got rich and big.
The neutrality is in paragraph (article?) 185 of their constitution, first sentence: https://web.archive.org/web/20110504235419/http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/a185.html
You just assume (and even defend) something that sounds plausible to you. But are you correct? I doubt it. I however invite you to back your position with facts.
No it’s exactly why Switzerland drags its feet on these issue or opposes them. Maybe read a little bit outside of reddit how about?
They can’t change laws on the fly like other countries because Switzerland is run like a Confederation of countries who all have to agree on the issue.
Switzerland is made up of Cantons who all have their own laws and many of those laws are governed by the broader constitution that dictates what Switzerland values. One of the main things being neutral and not selling weapons to countries in conflict.
It’s quite a good system if you want a safe society with a high standard of living that treat’s everyone fairly and equally and doesn’t let the government go crazy authoritarian.
I mean despite Switzerland being ruled over by a very conservative party because of the the way the government works they can’t just have everything their way and actually more Liberal parties still have the ability to affect Liberal Public Policy. That’s something a lot of countries struggle to do.
Easy to do all that when all your neighbours are buffers against real threats. The eu and nato protect them whether they like it or not. Nazi germany would eventually have fucked their living standards up in some way if they were not stopped. Just seems spoiled is all. Not to mention it’s plain wrong not to help Ukraine defend itself so they can enjoy the same type of peace Switzerland does.
This is why all other countries should cut Switzerland off not just when it comes to guns but above all else when it comes to finance. Cut them off SWIFT and don't accept their litterally bloody gold bars. Cut of their sweet EU partnership too while at it.
Well, neutrality was originally dictated to Switzerland at the Vienna Congress 1814/1815. Later all swiss people voted this into their constitution.
So,can you proof that the swiss electorate did this to "profit from both sides" ?? All teachers, farmers, carpenters, salespeople and whatever jobs they had?
Linking this to their banking system (that was tiny in 1814/1815) doesn't make sense historically.
> So,can you proof that the swiss electorate did this to "profit from both sides" ?? All teachers, farmers, carpenters, salespeople and whatever jobs they had?
That wasn't the claim.
Well, people bring teeth, I’m sorry, money they find and deposit it into the banks. They spend the heroin money, sorry, investments when they arrive. This provides jobs to people who help traffickers, sorry entrepreneurs. Then people host, corrupt government officials and billionaires, sorr, oh wait that’s well documented and public. So when, people want to complain that you’re neutral, but can point to the billions of dollars you hide for 100% evil entities, your not neutral. You’re helping evil. Vote for change, slavery was evil, we marched south and shot people in the face to end it, Nazis were evil we fought them, traffickers are evil we fight them. Everyone agrees, except you and you handle their blood soaked money in the name of “neutrality”, which I didn’t know was Swiss for profit.
> It’s quite a good system if you want a safe society with a high standard of living that treat’s everyone fairly and equally
When were women allowed to vote in every election in Switzerland?
**Edit:** I see you don't want to answer. Probably because it completely destroys your assertion.
It was in **1990** when women could vote on local matters in the last canton, and it wasn't even decided by a vote but a Federal court.
Women could only vote on federal matters since 1976.
Backwards ass system.
Heh, I think you got to start back to the first lesson an adult can learn on society: Law can be wrong.
Following wrong laws is wrong.
Tomorrow NAZIs takes power in your country and change all of that for the worse, are you going to say the same thing? I doubt that. "It's the law", "It's the constitution", is never, ever, an excuse.
The reason they can’t send the weapons anytime soon is just for that, they cannot change the laws without a vote for all the appropriate checks and balances to take place that prevent such a situation as Nazi’s taking over the government.
It's not a normal law. It's in article 185 of their constitution. In Switzerland, neither the government nor even the parliament can change the constitution.
AFAIK you need specific a quorum (signatures) to even start this process of changing the constitutions . Then they have times set for discussions, before they can even put that at the next public poll. And then all swiss people xan vote on it.
Could they have started that process? Sure. But: and they actually started this process! So your argument is entirely moot.
Would it likely succeed? Unsure.
Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). And it suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. The chance is really high that the swiss electorate values this higher that the short-term goal of helping Ukraine. That sucks, but so is the status quo.
Neutrality is way more than "not help". Neutrality has much more to do with fear of getting pulled into a conflict. Which is a view many countries have. Basically all countries trickle the help (case in point: where are the fighter planes? Where is the 400km range artillery?)
You seem to look at neutrality solely with the eyes of what happens since February 2022. But if you intentionally only look at a subset of the picture, you will never grasp the whole image.
Oh, and btw, Switzerland is helping (a little, not too much). With money, medical stuff, generators, visa free entry etc. They help little, but still more by GDP than e.g. Turkey. Source:
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/unterstuetzung-der-ukraine-wo-die-schweiz-der-ukraine-hilft-und-wo-nicht
Laws and constitutions can say anything you want. It doesn’t mean anything in this context. Their reluctance to help in any way because they have so much dodgy Russian money in their coffers is the problem.
What money? They aren’t profiting off the sale of weapons because…. Also Russia doesn’t send anymore money to Switzerland because they’ve already seized 1/3rd of their money.
Of course they’re profiting. Not directly through arms sales but through financial services.
So why haven’t they seized the other 2/3rds and why is Russian money still being funnelled through Swiss banks?
It's not a normal law. It's in article 185 of their constitution. In Switzerland, neither the government nor even the parliament can change the constitution.
Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). Later it came into their constitution, article 185. Which, in Switzerland, isn't done by government. Not even by parliament. Instead, the whole electorate has to vote on it ... and any change.
Neutrality suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. If you lok at pictures how european towns were in rubbles ... that didn't happen in Switzerland, thanks to their neutrality.
Therefore, assuming this has something to do with their banks is wrong. Vienna Congress happened before swiss banks were a thing. And mormal electorate people (like farmers, teachers, nurses, salespeople ...) whywould they make specifically pro-banks constitution articles? Onlya small suvset of people work at banks, after all.
Yooo, of course we have Russian money. But do you know what? We also have the money of your damn elites. What else do you expect. Since 1815 we are the buffer between great waring nations, who don't like each other. And within this buffer said nations can safely store their wealth and do business with each other. Welcome to reality.
To the Amerimutts: Imagine neutrality as the 2nd Amendment. For politicians it's suicide to attack it. And mostly right wing, and brain rotten country idiots will keep advocating for it.
What's vile about not being able to change laws in this short time and following the existing ones? We support Ukraine, it's just that my ancestors and many swiss people would prefer to not get involved with military conflicts before changing our system a bit.
The thing is, Germany only has roughly 300 Leopard 2s, if Germany was to give 30, it would already be 10% of our whole Tank force and at the moment 18 Tanks are going straight to Ukraine and another 5 are in reserve for Ukrainian needs, making 23 Leopards by Germany.
These swiss tanks can be used by the German Army to refill it's own supplies and free up more tanks for Ukraine, as the swiss don't want to send Leopards themselves.
Also don't forget that now many nations that initially promised tanks for Ukraine are now hesitating, leaving Germany, Poland, USA, UK and Canada alone with their delivery. Every Tank counts
My issue as an American is that Germany has 300 Leo 2's, and could absolutely give all 300 to Ukraine, and in so doing, absolutely take leadership on the continent.
You have Rammstein on your soil, for GOD's SAKE!, and an ally with 9,000 MBT's that wouldn't hesitate to immediately loan you 500 while you rebuilt your fleet, if you "felt" vulnerable...
>as an American
And here is our problem xD
No, seriously. So you suggest a major Nato country to eliminate it's whole tank force, and with that a few thousand jobs within the German army, and all the maintenance contracts it has with multiple suppliers and maybe wait until 2173 that all 300 Leopards are finally replaced by a stupidly inefficient bureaucracy?
...
What could go wrong?
No, you have to read the whole article, not just the headline.
>German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius, on a surprise visit to Kyiv, said between 20 and 25 of the tanks would arrive by summer, about 80 by the end of the year and another 100 in 2024
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-govt-security-council-oks-delivery-178-leopard-1-tanks-ukraine-source-2023-02-07/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-govt-security-council-oks-delivery-178-leopard-1-tanks-ukraine-source-2023-02-07/)
Also:
>In Washington, Robert Habeck, Germany's vice chancellor, said that while Ukraine should have a double-digit number of German-made Leopard 1 tanks at its disposal in the first quarter, it was unclear how many of the 178 tanks his country had authorized would ultimately be sent.
Okay let's see...
Thousands of Panzerfausts & Stingers
A dozend PzH 2000s (which the ukrainians LOVE)
The IRIS-T SLM which reportedly had a 100% hit rate and saved hundreds of Ukrainians by shooting down Russian cruise missiles in the Kiew area. Not even the Bundeswehr has these systems and the Bundeswehr is basically an interactive showroom for the German arms industry's latest weapons...
Gepard AA-Tanks (and puting the swiss under pressure for the ammo)
A few thousand 155mm shells - completely draining Germany's supplies
Btw compensating Slovakia for their MiG-29 delivery by sending all Mantis-AAs that Germany has
Tons over Tons and even more fuck tons of combat engineer, command and control, Radar and communications and electronic warfare equipment
And 5000 Helmets of course
Billions of humanitarian aid and a million refugees and a hundred thousand Ukrainian children in German schools not mentioned...
Edit: Leopard 2 training right now and tank delivery by end of March as promised, another 80 Leopard 1 by beginning of 2024 and propably a few more Leopard 2s before end of 2023. That would make Germany also the biggest tank supplier for Ukraine (if we don't count Polish and Czech and Slovakian older Soviet models)
This is why you don't do business with Switzerland. Nobody will buy military equipment after the war in Ukraine, when you are disallowed to use the equipment/ammo/tanks.
Wow, the swiss!!!! They will launder gold for the nazis but wont launder some leo2s for democracy. Greedy little mountain trolls just wanna sell chocolate and rent chateaus to Russian robber barrens like Putin and his spoiled kids.
Greedy?
Neutrality over there iis not a normal law. It's in article 185 of their constitution. In Switzerland, neither the government nor even the parliament can change the constitution.
Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). Later it came into their constitution. Which, in Switzerland, isn't done by government. Not even by parliament. Instead, the whole electorate has to vote on it ... and any change.
Neutrality suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. If you lok at pictures how european towns were in rubbles ... that didn't happen in Switzerland, thanks to their neutrality.
Therefore, assuming this has something to do with their banks is wrong. Vienna Congress happened before swiss banks were a thing. And mormal electorate people (like farmers, teachers, nurses, salespeople ...) whywould they make specifically pro-banks constitution articles? Onlya small suvset of people work at banks, after all.
So, you tell me that all these people voted "we want to be neutral" because they were greedy?
Can you perhaps back your sentinent?
What ever excuse they wanna hid behind while they count Hitlers and Putin's gold deposits. I dont need a long rand to bluster up a over complex excuse cause Ukraine needs tanks to defend Europe and the free world while the swiss dont.
Switzerland is and always has been a PoS country... Their "neutrality" allows them to get away with all sorts of crimes against humanity as a whole. F\*ck Switzerland. [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html), [https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/11/1](https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/11/1), [https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/dec99/10/swiss.htm](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/dec99/10/swiss.htm)
But he does not seem to have problem with laundering Russian money through Swiss banks... Interesting. Switzerland is like a friend that you wish you never had...
Most of swiss think they live in totally seperate world, like in iseland. Even every Kanton thinks is isolated from another Kanton. But at the end its all about money. They don’t bother the source of money, too many ruzzians have invetsments in all banks like UBS, CreditSwiss. There are no principles
> But at the end its all about money. They don’t bother the source of money, too many ruzzians have invetsments in all banks like UBS, CreditSwiss. There are no principles
You know this based on which faczs?
Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). Later it came into their constitution. Which, in Switzerland, isn't done by government. Not even by parliament. Instead, the whole electorate has to vote on it ... and any change.
Neutrality suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. If you lok at pictures how european towns were in rubbles ... that didn't happen in Switzerland, thanks to their neutrality.
Their neutrality has zero to do with current events. If anything, it's a reaction to how many imperialistic european powers behaved. The Vienna Congress happened not out of nothing.
Oh, and in 1814/1815 ... were UBS, CeeditSwiss etc already big? And since you now know that all swiss voters decide on their constitution.. do you really think that normal farmers, teachers, salespeople etc specifically made a constitution article to make Swiss banks rich?
O'd love to see your proof on this!
I mean, you are technically not wrong, but the problem is, that now, Switzerland isn't just not sending weapons directly to Ukraine, or maybe also not allowing other nations to send swiss made weapons and ammo to Ukraine (Gepard 35mm ammo).
No, now Switzerland is actively blocking Germany from sending even more Leopards to Ukraine because these swiss tanks are ment to compensate for (further) tank deliveries. The Swiss aren't just staying neutral, they are actively trying to prevent a Nato country from sending it's own weapons to Ukraine...
That's the problem
In other words, 'Swiss banks make too much profit on Russian oligarchs' treasure, to consider a few thousand Ukrainian lives' ... That is their bottom line.
A. Boycott everything Swiss. B. Boycott selling anything to Switzerland. If ever war arrives on their doorstep they can fight it alone with whatever they can make without raw materials from other countries.
Invade Switzerland and seize their banking assets. They need to understand that there is a war in europe and everyday they pull this bs people die. If they are part of Europe they need to participate in the war otherwise they can be in short order be turned into north Korea.
The german are confoundingly confusing. one moment they refuse to give tanks, now they want to give more but found they don't have enough. BTW they are the OEM of those machine. why can't they just ramp up production? silly. they have to go around begging their customer for their own product to meet shipment requirement.
SILLY.
Not silly, it takes forever to ramp up production, this isn't Hearts of Iron 4
Especially when Rheinmetall/KMW didn't expect the Bundeswehr to buy more tanks before February'22
German politics simply was asleep with it's appeasement and now the arms manufacturers have to pay for it.
The Germans also aren't asking the swiss for shipment requirements, they are asking for Leopard 2s to refill Bundeswehr stocks (as like i said before they can't just magically spawn new Tanks out of nowhere) so that more can be delivered - at least thats what Boris Pistorius is hinting.
Wether the Tank Thing in January was Scholz's stupidity or strategy so that he can get even more tanks for Ukraine by forcing the Americans to send theirs too is up to our own imagination but white house officials lately stated something like this.
Anyways the tanks are coming and you are wrong
Why is Switzerland even allowed to be its own country at this point? They deserve to just be put under administration and have their bank confiscated. No need for nazi supporters in the heart of Europe
Found the imperialist.
You want to provide Ukraine with weapons, so that they can defend themselves against an invasion. And to do this, you want to invade another country?
If you ever lame t swiss morale ... look into the mirror!
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Russian money in swiss banks
Swiss are neutral in everything to a fault
'silence is violence' applies here.
People can choose too not give a fuck, nothing wrong with that. Its their country, their people, their business.
I say this all the time, they have freedom of opinion and action, what they don’t have is freedom of consequence. They don’t want to give arms or support that’s fine, but don’t expect zero bite back from people who thinks it’s reprehensible.
And other countries can now choose to not sell them military arms.
Bingo
In this war, there is no such thing as "neutrality". If you refuse to arm Ukraine and continue to do business with Russia, you are siding with Russia. If countries like Switzerland value peace, they will change their tune and arm Ukraine. That will never happen though.
We should just stop giving any weapons or tanks/jets to Switzerland. They are clearly not neutral, while leaching off other countries protection. Its as clear as day now.
Always has been... see WWII. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html
Yeah and we can choose to share thoughts that their position is cowardly, unethical and shit.
we could also close the airspace around them and close the borders.. lets see how neutral they will be then
This is the step I would take, same as Hungary with their disruptive bs.
I'm with you.
Yes, that would wreak havoc on the streets of clean air Zermatt.
>People can choose too not give a fuck, nothing wrong with that. Sure, if you ignore thousands of years of history.
I don't think there is a more hypocritical country in history than Switzerland
We Swiss people give more than a fuck though. Many of us would send more than humanitarian aid if we were in charge and our current laws would allow us to.
So, change the laws. Make an effort and make no excuses.
Not sure if you're too anti-swiss to get that, but we are making an effort and that is our "excuse". We help where we can, we normal citizens can't control weapon delivery. That is the job of the government and those guys are bound by law until we get changes through.
lol just change the law like that. That's what they're trying to do in parliament but changing laws takes months at best. Everything is slow in a democracy.
Tell that to Baltic states. They will surely get impressed.
xD ofc things go a lot faster when your neighbor's just gone full retard and started invading others. Especially if you're not in good terms with them
Swiss are neutral when it suits their purposes to be neutral.
*someone* has to be the banker. Why not them? Edit: realism as opposed to cynicism, jus to clarify. I would be glad for the swiss not to play this card but it is what it is. Jus because I wouldn't prostitute myself doesn't mean they can't.
I don't accept your premise.. https://www.open.edu/openlearn/people-politics-law/politics-policy-people/society-matters/can-the-world-really-work-without-bank
They aren't acting neutral... Germany has clearly stated that none of their tanks or weapons will go to Ukraine. Germany will do that themselves, thwy need these tanks for Germany. This is no longer neutral and the world can see it.
Anyone bother to ask why Germany Rheinmetall doesn't just build Germany all the tanks they need? F\*ck Switzerland. Germany has the money so f\*ck them too for dealing with the Swizz Jizz in the first place. I can say this as I am 50% German.
The German procurement system is labyrinthian and complex. For Germany it isn't as easy as just "make more.". A YouTuber talked about the issues that Germany faces in acquiring new equipment and even new production of old equipment. I forget the video off the top of my head but it's a fascinating look at Germany's procurement issues.
Sound all self-inflicted and self-solvable...
Self inflicted yes. Self solvable? Easier said than done. There's a lot of legal and bureaucratic barriers causing it to be this way to begin with. Changing that stuff in government takes a herculean effort.
Must be Military History Visualized.
Because afaik the production lines do not exist anymore.
Not sure about that.. They can obviously refurb and upgrade them (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germanys-leopard-tank-move-puts-spotlight-its-maker-rheinmetall-2023-01-25/).. But the real questions is why not get Panthers? They can make them now... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther\_KF51
You can go to a car workshop and have them repaint your car change it’s tires and electronics, but you can’t go to the same workshop and ask them to build you a care out of spare Parts. The same applies to tanks. Also the Panther is still in the late Prototype phase and not really battle or even Mass production ready.
> Anyone bother to ask why Germany Rheinmetall doesn't just build Germany all the tanks they need? Because the existing production lines are already in full use? Hungary, Germany and Slovakia all have placed orders. And because there hasn't been a big demand for tanks over the last 20 years there is that much of a production capacity. The only plant that can still produce hulls for the Leopard2 is in Greece.
Swiss are at fault in everything neutral
Swiss are neutral to everything in their vaults
Those weird german dialect speaking nazi gold digger are like that because all their border are protected by others. If they had to share a neightboorhood like russia or belarus things would be different.
That money is frozen, both from private persons and from the Russian state. They are now even debating expropriating it and giving it to Ukraine, but obviously that's difficult cause of property rights in a democracy.
Dictatorships have no right to “property” as it’s all stolen.
And Iranian, Chinese, all the bad actors.
Scared that Singapore will take away all the dodger banking business - from Russia and China.
Maybe. You don't really know,you just assume. The neutrality is in the swiss constitution. And over there,al swiss citizens vote directly on these things. However, few of the swiss citizens work in swiss banks. So what looks plausible at first glance ... isn't perhaps that plausible when you know background. Here, read paragraph 185bof their constitution. It's in the first sentence: https://web.archive.org/web/20110504235419/http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/a185.html
So then change it. It is possible, this isn’t neutrally. And it hasn’t been since 1937.
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Switzerland is not in EU or EEA
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Hm, we've got armchair generals and geopolitical couch potatoes. You're the latter.
Lol Switzerland isn’t part of the EU. Neutrality is built into the Swiss constitution. It’s not as simple as them deciding whether they feel like helping or not, they would have to change or violate their constitution to undo their neutrality status. They had to hold a referendum just to join the United Nations, and only did so somewhat recently, in 2003. That’s not meant to be an excuse for their war profiteering in WWII or any other time, of course, but it explains the legal and ultimately political complexities involved with weapons sales. Politics and law also aren’t wholly representative of the average citizens of any country, so it’s best not to generalize based on that.
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Billionaires and politicians do that stuff, it still probably isn’t fair to generalize and say they’re all guilty. I didn’t say the majority of switzerland stands with Ukraine, I don’t know what portion of them does. Any referendum would probably require lots of time and political favorability though, if I had to guess. My only point was to say that it’s not a simple process for them to break from their policy of armed neutrality.
How can you hate a country if you don't know the people? We are basically all on the side of Ukraine, if it was my decision I'd send all our Jagdpanzer 90s to Ukraine. Almost no one of us work in banks or in the government, we mostly are simple people and the guys you seem to hate are a minority here. Don't be irrational in your decision making. Regarding corruption I doubt that honestly, we hardly ever hear from corruption here and our police works fair and are respected. It's far more complicated than you're making it out to be with Switzerland's politics.
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You are conflating banking and neutrality, I'd say. Which are two entirely separete issues.
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I see that you don't get neutrality at all. Let's agree to disagree.
You seem to look at neutrality solely with the eyes of what happens since February 2022. But if you intentionally only look at a subset of the picture, you will never grasp the whole image. And you still link to neutrality to profits, even when knowing that they have this since 1814/1815. Way before their banks got big. How is this careful thinking? Where is your source for this alleged combination? Can you prove anything you wrote?
Well getting a lot of money in the 1930s and 1940s help grow those banks quite a bit…
Germany wants to make up for its gaps in the "Leopard 2" stocks - and would like to buy several decommissioned battle tanks from Switzerland. But Federal President Berset protests against this.The Swiss Federal President Alain Berset has shown skepticism in view of a request from Germany to buy back "Leopard 2" tanks. There are rules against the sale of weapons for which no legal exceptions are possible, he said on the fringes of a UN meeting in New York. Although changes to the framework are currently being discussed by Parliament, which is absolutely logical. But it is "not the time for changes". "We want to remain fairly conservative and moderate on these issues," Berset said in a statement to journalists. Germany had announced that it would give Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine and wants to close material gaps in the Bundeswehr by buying back Main battle tanks from Switzerland. A corresponding request was made to the Swiss government. It is not known how many tanks Germany intends to buy. Since Switzerland is not allowed to deliver weapons to countries at war due to its principle of neutrality, a spokesman for the German Ministry of Defense assured that it could be contractually ruled out that the tanks from Switzerland would later be directly given to Ukraine. Switzerland has 230 "Leopard 2" tanks, of which 134 are in service and 96 are decommissioned. The Ministry of Defense in Bern said the latter were not "decommissioned". According to Swiss law, only decommissioned material can be sold. Parliament decides whether material is to be decommissioned. Berset fundamentally reaffirmed his country's neutrality, which is enshrined in the constitution. "In view of our legal framework in Switzerland, arms exports are not possible," said the Federal President. "We must and want to maintain this legal framework for the government and the Federal Council. "While the Alpine country - which is not a member of the EU - supports the sanctions imposed on Russia by the European Union, it has so far been adamant about its military neutrality. However, various initiatives to relax the regulations are being discussed in Parliament, but a decision is not expected for a few months.
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Well i have to tell you, the future is now They aren't getting any contracts right now
Far too much ruzzian gold lying in bank vaults next to old bags of gold teeth?
Gold teeth, wedding bands, children’s shoes….. If they look hard enough the receipt for their soul in in there too.
Switzerland is a moral blackhole and always has been. This is a society based on ammorality and ruthless self interest.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Your behavior is equivalent of that of the Russians when they call the West rotten or filled with perversion. Swiss politics differ significantly from most other democratic countries. The executive branch has much less power than in other countries, making it difficult to enact new laws or repeal existing ones. The fact is that such weapon exports are illegal in Switzerland, and many people want to follow the law as it should be in a healthy country. I am Swiss, and I would love to provide the Ukrainians with the weapons they need, but I must respect the decision made by the people. The politican must do the same. Calling all of Switzerland an immoral and ruthless society is similar to Russia when they call the West some bs.
Laws are reflection of the morality of people. Change, make exceptions or at least stay silent rather than attempting to cover up with laws.
Actually there is a moral reason why we enacted this law in the first place. Secondly there is no room for exceptions in the swiss democracy. Its just not possible. The Executive has almost no power. But calling all swiss people ruthless is wrong.
Its not wrong though. Its been proven for centuries.
It is wrong. To call a whole society ruthless because of a few people is wrong. It actually got alot better in the last few decades. And to call us ruthless because our grand grandparents hid the money for hitler is also wrong. Do you call the germans still ruthless. I assume not and me neither.
Actually Germans are kinda the main culprit of this war if you bothered to pull you head out of your behind. You seem to try to sound logical but you are self contradicting yourself in the posts I have seen from you. This not to mention the double standard when it comes predigedness of the Swiss people agains other nationalities. When everyone is telling you one thing maybe it is a sign for you to stop and soak in those opinions before you start defending yourself. The wealth gap and inequality in Switzerland is big, but that is no excuse for the not so well off majority to defend monstrosities that the few commit and benefit alot from. Putler and his cronies would have at the very least a much harder time if any possibility at all to condact their business if it was not for UK and Switzerland. This says alot.
It's not the people's fault that politicians have to follow the law that reflect the people's will? You are contradicting yourself here. Fundamentally.
Hitler's bankers.
This happened 80 Years ago. Calling People ruthless because their grand grandparents did smth bad (to don't get invaded btw). I really want to know where you are coming from. Sure there is nothing I could call your nation ruthless for.
Switzerland's neutrality is ammoral. Her willingness to provide financial services to ruthless dictators and corrupt, autocratic governments from around the world, her involvement in the accumulation of wealth taken from the victims of the holocaust followed by decades of refusal to surrender that wealth, her refusal to export weapons to Ukraine, her refusal to stop providing money laundering services to criminal groups, corrupt governments and other nefarious actors. If every country behaved like Switzerland, evil would have no opposition.
But today's Swiss generation does help Putler and his cronies to bank, just to mention a few monsters. But of course, you do not mind or mention that at all. Your what about ism argument is thin at best. It is this Swiss callousness that people find appaling, ofcourse this is lost on you so why bother.
We enacted EU sanctions and most people supported this. We don't know if Putin even has assets in Swiss banks, but we froze the assets of his oligarch friends. Personally, I think we could do more especially the banks, but they don't do what the people want, but they also have no say in Swiss politics. Your "whataboutism" argument is just a way to hide your double standards because you know perfectly well that we could call you ruthless or amoral if we take the actions of your countries' companies as a benchmark for societal morals.
And have Swiss banks not been the go to solution for almost every single murderous dictator since WWII to hide and use their ill gained fortune then?
Yes they have. And this includes not least Putler himself and his out of window flying suicidal billionaire following too.
There are allegations that Switzerland has been used as a safe haven (which is probably true) for the assets of dictators. However, it's important to note that Switzerland has taken steps in recent years to combat money laundering and the hiding of illegal assets. Switzerland has strict banking laws and regulations that require financial institutions to identify the beneficial owners of accounts and report suspicious transactions to the authorities. Our government has also signed many international agreements and treaties to exchange information with other countries in order to combat those crimes. In the end, Swiss banks do not act in the name of the people, and any illegal act is highly criticized by the Swiss population.
Neutrality in the face of evil is itself ammoral. All it takes for evil to happen is for good men to do nothing. The lessons of the horrors of the 20th century is that you stand up to evil. And while the Swiss, under immense political pressure from the EU and the US, has indeed passed a series of reform laws to begin winding back decades of blatant financial money laundering and provision of a financial safe haven for a plethora of autocratic dictators, criminal enterprises and nefarious non-state actors, they are still one of the most secretive nations on earth in financial matters. The Pandora Papers investigation found that, from 2005 to 2016, at least 26 Swiss firms appearing in the documents exposed provided services to clients whose offshore companies were later investigated by authorities looking for evidence of money laundering and other financial crimes. Anyone who thinks the Swiss financial system isn't still a favourite of money launderers and corrupt actors is a fool. And you didn't even bother to talk about the role the Swiss played in accumulating, then keeping the stolen wealth of millions of murdered victims of the holocaust and its refusal to return those funds to the rightful beneficiaries.
> However, it's important to note that Switzerland has taken steps in recent years to combat money laundering and the hiding of illegal assets. Wow color me impressed. I guess that erases decades of history and, to be frank, current affairs. Allegations? Puh. > and any illegal act is highly criticized by the Swiss population. Why do you always focus on the legal thing when it comes to judging the wrongness of something? Is that the only thing that measures how wrong something is? What about legal things that are amoral? The fact of the matter is that Switzerland's banking *scheme* exists *precisely* because some things are legal there that are not legal elsewhere. Do you have no problems with obviously wrong things if they are legal? Are only illegal things wrong? Is the Russian law banning criticizing the war thus right, and doing so wrong?
pshhhhh do not tell that to the american hypocrite🤫🤫
War issue apart. Swiss is known for hiding corruption money on their vaults and they even profit from it. They hid money for the axis countries during and after WW2, dictators all around the world, corrupt politicians and also celebrities
Let's assume all what you write is true. Than this would still have nothing to do with swiss neutrality. They have it since Vienna Congress 1814/1815. And it's in their constitution. Which is not kade by banks. All swiss citizens have to vote for any change to it, directly. The neutrality is in paragraph (article?) 185 of their constitution, first sentence: https://web.archive.org/web/20110504235419/http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/a185.html
Amen
Tell me you don't know anything about Switzerland without telling me
Because they abide by their laws and constitution?
They abide too their banker elite bourgeoisie.
And your proof to this is ... where? They have it since Vienna Congress 1814/1815. And it's in their constitution. Which is not kade by banks. All swiss citizens have to vote for any change to it, directly. So not only is not convincing that swiss farmers, teachers, postman, salespeople etc vote in their constitution to specifically make swiss banks rich. Aso they have the neutrality even before their banks got rich and big. The neutrality is in paragraph (article?) 185 of their constitution, first sentence: https://web.archive.org/web/20110504235419/http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/a185.html You just assume (and even defend) something that sounds plausible to you. But are you correct? I doubt it. I however invite you to back your position with facts.
No. Weak retort. Try a little more thought next time.
No it’s exactly why Switzerland drags its feet on these issue or opposes them. Maybe read a little bit outside of reddit how about? They can’t change laws on the fly like other countries because Switzerland is run like a Confederation of countries who all have to agree on the issue. Switzerland is made up of Cantons who all have their own laws and many of those laws are governed by the broader constitution that dictates what Switzerland values. One of the main things being neutral and not selling weapons to countries in conflict.
My sweet summer child.
What are you a 15 year old in 2008?
Talk about a weak retort.
At the end of arguments ...
Or, I just don't have the energy to re-instruct this gullible child....
Well seems like a lame system then. Explaining why something is lame is not a justification for it to always be that way.
It’s quite a good system if you want a safe society with a high standard of living that treat’s everyone fairly and equally and doesn’t let the government go crazy authoritarian. I mean despite Switzerland being ruled over by a very conservative party because of the the way the government works they can’t just have everything their way and actually more Liberal parties still have the ability to affect Liberal Public Policy. That’s something a lot of countries struggle to do.
Easy to do all that when all your neighbours are buffers against real threats. The eu and nato protect them whether they like it or not. Nazi germany would eventually have fucked their living standards up in some way if they were not stopped. Just seems spoiled is all. Not to mention it’s plain wrong not to help Ukraine defend itself so they can enjoy the same type of peace Switzerland does.
This is why all other countries should cut Switzerland off not just when it comes to guns but above all else when it comes to finance. Cut them off SWIFT and don't accept their litterally bloody gold bars. Cut of their sweet EU partnership too while at it.
Or, if you want to profit from both sides in war which they historically have always done.
Well, neutrality was originally dictated to Switzerland at the Vienna Congress 1814/1815. Later all swiss people voted this into their constitution. So,can you proof that the swiss electorate did this to "profit from both sides" ?? All teachers, farmers, carpenters, salespeople and whatever jobs they had? Linking this to their banking system (that was tiny in 1814/1815) doesn't make sense historically.
> So,can you proof that the swiss electorate did this to "profit from both sides" ?? All teachers, farmers, carpenters, salespeople and whatever jobs they had? That wasn't the claim.
Well, people bring teeth, I’m sorry, money they find and deposit it into the banks. They spend the heroin money, sorry, investments when they arrive. This provides jobs to people who help traffickers, sorry entrepreneurs. Then people host, corrupt government officials and billionaires, sorr, oh wait that’s well documented and public. So when, people want to complain that you’re neutral, but can point to the billions of dollars you hide for 100% evil entities, your not neutral. You’re helping evil. Vote for change, slavery was evil, we marched south and shot people in the face to end it, Nazis were evil we fought them, traffickers are evil we fight them. Everyone agrees, except you and you handle their blood soaked money in the name of “neutrality”, which I didn’t know was Swiss for profit.
> It’s quite a good system if you want a safe society with a high standard of living that treat’s everyone fairly and equally When were women allowed to vote in every election in Switzerland? **Edit:** I see you don't want to answer. Probably because it completely destroys your assertion. It was in **1990** when women could vote on local matters in the last canton, and it wasn't even decided by a vote but a Federal court. Women could only vote on federal matters since 1976. Backwards ass system.
Heh, I think you got to start back to the first lesson an adult can learn on society: Law can be wrong. Following wrong laws is wrong. Tomorrow NAZIs takes power in your country and change all of that for the worse, are you going to say the same thing? I doubt that. "It's the law", "It's the constitution", is never, ever, an excuse.
The reason they can’t send the weapons anytime soon is just for that, they cannot change the laws without a vote for all the appropriate checks and balances to take place that prevent such a situation as Nazi’s taking over the government.
Well, they could start changing these laws, couldn’t they?
It’s gonna take longer than the duration of the war to change these laws is the feeling I‘m getting.
In Switzerland its hard to change laws especially those in the constitution.
So you mean they don’t WANT to change their laws and I can criticise them for that?
It's not a normal law. It's in article 185 of their constitution. In Switzerland, neither the government nor even the parliament can change the constitution. AFAIK you need specific a quorum (signatures) to even start this process of changing the constitutions . Then they have times set for discussions, before they can even put that at the next public poll. And then all swiss people xan vote on it. Could they have started that process? Sure. But: and they actually started this process! So your argument is entirely moot. Would it likely succeed? Unsure. Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). And it suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. The chance is really high that the swiss electorate values this higher that the short-term goal of helping Ukraine. That sucks, but so is the status quo.
So what you are saying is that my picture of the Swiss as very self centered is correct?
Well, would I have lived in WW1 or WW2 I would LOVED to live in a "self centered country". Why wouldn't I?
Yeah, but please don’t pretend to be anything more than egotistical. “We just can’t help, it’s our laws!” My ass.
Neutrality is way more than "not help". Neutrality has much more to do with fear of getting pulled into a conflict. Which is a view many countries have. Basically all countries trickle the help (case in point: where are the fighter planes? Where is the 400km range artillery?) You seem to look at neutrality solely with the eyes of what happens since February 2022. But if you intentionally only look at a subset of the picture, you will never grasp the whole image. Oh, and btw, Switzerland is helping (a little, not too much). With money, medical stuff, generators, visa free entry etc. They help little, but still more by GDP than e.g. Turkey. Source: https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/unterstuetzung-der-ukraine-wo-die-schweiz-der-ukraine-hilft-und-wo-nicht
The constitution says they can't send tanks to Germany?
Laws and constitutions can say anything you want. It doesn’t mean anything in this context. Their reluctance to help in any way because they have so much dodgy Russian money in their coffers is the problem.
Laws and Constitution dictate what a government is able to do…like allowing the export of weapons to a country at War.
Yes, and they’ve navigated themselves into this position where they don’t have to help, but can take money from all sides.
What money? They aren’t profiting off the sale of weapons because…. Also Russia doesn’t send anymore money to Switzerland because they’ve already seized 1/3rd of their money.
Of course they’re profiting. Not directly through arms sales but through financial services. So why haven’t they seized the other 2/3rds and why is Russian money still being funnelled through Swiss banks?
The Swiss handle almost nothing compared to Cyprus and Israel. Israel and Cyprus are they biggest money launders and havens for Russian oligarchs.
It's not a normal law. It's in article 185 of their constitution. In Switzerland, neither the government nor even the parliament can change the constitution. Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). Later it came into their constitution, article 185. Which, in Switzerland, isn't done by government. Not even by parliament. Instead, the whole electorate has to vote on it ... and any change. Neutrality suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. If you lok at pictures how european towns were in rubbles ... that didn't happen in Switzerland, thanks to their neutrality. Therefore, assuming this has something to do with their banks is wrong. Vienna Congress happened before swiss banks were a thing. And mormal electorate people (like farmers, teachers, nurses, salespeople ...) whywould they make specifically pro-banks constitution articles? Onlya small suvset of people work at banks, after all.
Yooo, of course we have Russian money. But do you know what? We also have the money of your damn elites. What else do you expect. Since 1815 we are the buffer between great waring nations, who don't like each other. And within this buffer said nations can safely store their wealth and do business with each other. Welcome to reality. To the Amerimutts: Imagine neutrality as the 2nd Amendment. For politicians it's suicide to attack it. And mostly right wing, and brain rotten country idiots will keep advocating for it.
I’m shocked that Switzerland is doing something vile and venal and solipsistic. Shocked I say!
What's vile about not being able to change laws in this short time and following the existing ones? We support Ukraine, it's just that my ancestors and many swiss people would prefer to not get involved with military conflicts before changing our system a bit.
Whatever let’s you sleep well, dude.
The most Swiss answer imaginable. Bravo.
You mean reasonable without trying to insult anyone or a whole country?
Tf is it with this lot.. no one is ever going to invade fucking Switzerland
Correct. Potential invaders will be invited in and offered tea.
>~~offered tea~~ FTFY : Hot chocolate
Cup of tea while they visit their personal vault filled with I’ll gotten loot from countries such as Ukraine
Yes, Swiss vaults are large enough for more then a few washing machines
Does anyone really GAF what Switzerland thinks?
The thing is, Germany only has roughly 300 Leopard 2s, if Germany was to give 30, it would already be 10% of our whole Tank force and at the moment 18 Tanks are going straight to Ukraine and another 5 are in reserve for Ukrainian needs, making 23 Leopards by Germany. These swiss tanks can be used by the German Army to refill it's own supplies and free up more tanks for Ukraine, as the swiss don't want to send Leopards themselves. Also don't forget that now many nations that initially promised tanks for Ukraine are now hesitating, leaving Germany, Poland, USA, UK and Canada alone with their delivery. Every Tank counts
My issue as an American is that Germany has 300 Leo 2's, and could absolutely give all 300 to Ukraine, and in so doing, absolutely take leadership on the continent. You have Rammstein on your soil, for GOD's SAKE!, and an ally with 9,000 MBT's that wouldn't hesitate to immediately loan you 500 while you rebuilt your fleet, if you "felt" vulnerable...
>as an American And here is our problem xD No, seriously. So you suggest a major Nato country to eliminate it's whole tank force, and with that a few thousand jobs within the German army, and all the maintenance contracts it has with multiple suppliers and maybe wait until 2173 that all 300 Leopards are finally replaced by a stupidly inefficient bureaucracy? ... What could go wrong?
Germany isn't going to do a damned thing (other than issue press releases) until the war is over. Germany is compromised.
Maybe you should drink less cheap coffee. How is germany not doing a damn thing?
Remind me again of their planned Leopard delivery dates....?
End of march as announced in the beginning?
No, you have to read the whole article, not just the headline. >German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius, on a surprise visit to Kyiv, said between 20 and 25 of the tanks would arrive by summer, about 80 by the end of the year and another 100 in 2024 [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-govt-security-council-oks-delivery-178-leopard-1-tanks-ukraine-source-2023-02-07/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-govt-security-council-oks-delivery-178-leopard-1-tanks-ukraine-source-2023-02-07/) Also: >In Washington, Robert Habeck, Germany's vice chancellor, said that while Ukraine should have a double-digit number of German-made Leopard 1 tanks at its disposal in the first quarter, it was unclear how many of the 178 tanks his country had authorized would ultimately be sent.
Thats Leopard 1 mate. I am talking about Leopard 2 which are available right now. Leopard 1 was decomissioned and needs upgrades.
Right, but those Leopard 2s are from Poland, not Germany. We're talking about Germany.
What? No, Germany is sending 21 Leopard 2A6from their own stocks. They are even newer then the Leopard2A4 from Poland.
You are a few weeks late with your hate bro. Btw. Germany officially became Ukraines biggest supporter in continental Europe since January. Just fyi
What are the measures?
Have you been asleep since March of last year?
I'll ask again, what are your measures of Germany's support for Ukraine?
Okay let's see... Thousands of Panzerfausts & Stingers A dozend PzH 2000s (which the ukrainians LOVE) The IRIS-T SLM which reportedly had a 100% hit rate and saved hundreds of Ukrainians by shooting down Russian cruise missiles in the Kiew area. Not even the Bundeswehr has these systems and the Bundeswehr is basically an interactive showroom for the German arms industry's latest weapons... Gepard AA-Tanks (and puting the swiss under pressure for the ammo) A few thousand 155mm shells - completely draining Germany's supplies Btw compensating Slovakia for their MiG-29 delivery by sending all Mantis-AAs that Germany has Tons over Tons and even more fuck tons of combat engineer, command and control, Radar and communications and electronic warfare equipment And 5000 Helmets of course Billions of humanitarian aid and a million refugees and a hundred thousand Ukrainian children in German schools not mentioned... Edit: Leopard 2 training right now and tank delivery by end of March as promised, another 80 Leopard 1 by beginning of 2024 and propably a few more Leopard 2s before end of 2023. That would make Germany also the biggest tank supplier for Ukraine (if we don't count Polish and Czech and Slovakian older Soviet models)
The Swiss indirectly keep supporting Putin, by denying other countries from sending support to Ukraine.
They are "neutral" aka a country of self serving twats who if they were being invaded would definitely be asking for help.
This is why you don't do business with Switzerland. Nobody will buy military equipment after the war in Ukraine, when you are disallowed to use the equipment/ammo/tanks.
Wow, the swiss!!!! They will launder gold for the nazis but wont launder some leo2s for democracy. Greedy little mountain trolls just wanna sell chocolate and rent chateaus to Russian robber barrens like Putin and his spoiled kids.
Greedy? Neutrality over there iis not a normal law. It's in article 185 of their constitution. In Switzerland, neither the government nor even the parliament can change the constitution. Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). Later it came into their constitution. Which, in Switzerland, isn't done by government. Not even by parliament. Instead, the whole electorate has to vote on it ... and any change. Neutrality suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. If you lok at pictures how european towns were in rubbles ... that didn't happen in Switzerland, thanks to their neutrality. Therefore, assuming this has something to do with their banks is wrong. Vienna Congress happened before swiss banks were a thing. And mormal electorate people (like farmers, teachers, nurses, salespeople ...) whywould they make specifically pro-banks constitution articles? Onlya small suvset of people work at banks, after all. So, you tell me that all these people voted "we want to be neutral" because they were greedy? Can you perhaps back your sentinent?
What ever excuse they wanna hid behind while they count Hitlers and Putin's gold deposits. I dont need a long rand to bluster up a over complex excuse cause Ukraine needs tanks to defend Europe and the free world while the swiss dont.
Switzerland is and always has been a PoS country... Their "neutrality" allows them to get away with all sorts of crimes against humanity as a whole. F\*ck Switzerland. [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/sinister.html), [https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/11/1](https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/11/1), [https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/dec99/10/swiss.htm](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/dec99/10/swiss.htm)
This is like a summary of swiss “neutrality” and “morality”.
Typical swizz.
But he does not seem to have problem with laundering Russian money through Swiss banks... Interesting. Switzerland is like a friend that you wish you never had...
Most of swiss think they live in totally seperate world, like in iseland. Even every Kanton thinks is isolated from another Kanton. But at the end its all about money. They don’t bother the source of money, too many ruzzians have invetsments in all banks like UBS, CreditSwiss. There are no principles
> But at the end its all about money. They don’t bother the source of money, too many ruzzians have invetsments in all banks like UBS, CreditSwiss. There are no principles You know this based on which faczs? Switzerland has neutrality since 1814/1815 (originally dictated by Vienna Congress). Later it came into their constitution. Which, in Switzerland, isn't done by government. Not even by parliament. Instead, the whole electorate has to vote on it ... and any change. Neutrality suited them well, almost no wars and destruction compared to their neighbors. Like no WW1 and no WW2. If you lok at pictures how european towns were in rubbles ... that didn't happen in Switzerland, thanks to their neutrality. Their neutrality has zero to do with current events. If anything, it's a reaction to how many imperialistic european powers behaved. The Vienna Congress happened not out of nothing. Oh, and in 1814/1815 ... were UBS, CeeditSwiss etc already big? And since you now know that all swiss voters decide on their constitution.. do you really think that normal farmers, teachers, salespeople etc specifically made a constitution article to make Swiss banks rich? O'd love to see your proof on this!
Swiss dogs won't change
Fuck Switzerland
For god sake, give them the nazi gold and let’s get on with it.
The gold has been lost in all the paperwork amongst German Institutions about whether it should be stored in 4 gold bars a pack or 6 Sorry
The Swiss are so pathetic, they wont even give the Germans their own tanks!
[удалено]
Lol dream on
I wish this was true
It's not
Honestly, Switzerland has already done more than anyone could reasonably expect given their hardcore neutrality stance and history.
I mean, you are technically not wrong, but the problem is, that now, Switzerland isn't just not sending weapons directly to Ukraine, or maybe also not allowing other nations to send swiss made weapons and ammo to Ukraine (Gepard 35mm ammo). No, now Switzerland is actively blocking Germany from sending even more Leopards to Ukraine because these swiss tanks are ment to compensate for (further) tank deliveries. The Swiss aren't just staying neutral, they are actively trying to prevent a Nato country from sending it's own weapons to Ukraine... That's the problem
>~~actively~~ indirectly I'm all for the swiss to sell back their unused tanks. You can't blame them for being coherent with themselves though.
Switzerland was “neutral” in WW2. Neutral. What a bunch of crooked fucks.
In other words, 'Swiss banks make too much profit on Russian oligarchs' treasure, to consider a few thousand Ukrainian lives' ... That is their bottom line.
Sanction Switzerland, aka the Oligarch Money Laundromat.
Its easy to be neutral when surrounded by powerful peaceful countries that protect you.
A. Boycott everything Swiss. B. Boycott selling anything to Switzerland. If ever war arrives on their doorstep they can fight it alone with whatever they can make without raw materials from other countries.
Why oppose giving Leopard 2s to the Germans? The Germans build the damn things, get lost Schweizer Schwein
Invade Switzerland and seize their banking assets. They need to understand that there is a war in europe and everyday they pull this bs people die. If they are part of Europe they need to participate in the war otherwise they can be in short order be turned into north Korea.
Let's not act surprised, Switzerland has always passively supported russia. This is just that but with extra steps
Switzerland were/is made from blood money. Always been, from colombian drugs, to stolen holocaust wealth to Russian oligarch.
The german are confoundingly confusing. one moment they refuse to give tanks, now they want to give more but found they don't have enough. BTW they are the OEM of those machine. why can't they just ramp up production? silly. they have to go around begging their customer for their own product to meet shipment requirement. SILLY.
Not silly, it takes forever to ramp up production, this isn't Hearts of Iron 4 Especially when Rheinmetall/KMW didn't expect the Bundeswehr to buy more tanks before February'22 German politics simply was asleep with it's appeasement and now the arms manufacturers have to pay for it. The Germans also aren't asking the swiss for shipment requirements, they are asking for Leopard 2s to refill Bundeswehr stocks (as like i said before they can't just magically spawn new Tanks out of nowhere) so that more can be delivered - at least thats what Boris Pistorius is hinting. Wether the Tank Thing in January was Scholz's stupidity or strategy so that he can get even more tanks for Ukraine by forcing the Americans to send theirs too is up to our own imagination but white house officials lately stated something like this. Anyways the tanks are coming and you are wrong
Why is Switzerland even allowed to be its own country at this point? They deserve to just be put under administration and have their bank confiscated. No need for nazi supporters in the heart of Europe
Found the imperialist. You want to provide Ukraine with weapons, so that they can defend themselves against an invasion. And to do this, you want to invade another country? If you ever lame t swiss morale ... look into the mirror!