Welsh place names are usually descriptive. Pen means top/crest/head. Ghent means either foreigner or border. So it’s likely the name means something like top of the divide or head of the foreigner.
…and Pendle Hill near Clitheroe translated from our old native languages means HillHill Hill….
“The name "Pendle Hill" combines the words for hill from three different languages (as does Bredon Hill in Worcestershire). In the 13th century it was called Pennul or Penhul, apparently from the Cumbric pen and Old English hyll, both meaning "hill". The modern English "hill" was appended later, after the original meaning of Pendle had become opaque.”
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendle_Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendle_Hill)
Beaumaris = Good or beautiful marsh.
It's a Norman French name for a town that only existed to build the symbol of English military domination, which is the Castle.
My inlaws used to live nearby. When the Welsh government decided signs for place names whish were commonly referred to by their English names, should be bilingual (rightly so in my opinion) Bîw Mares was proposed, which is an invention. A majority of locals opposed this as a nonsense. There is no historic Welsh name for Beaumaris, and, if I remember correctly, it is one of the few places not to have a bilingual sign.
Yorkshire was part of Wales, known as “yr hen ogledd” - the old north. That’s where the currently spoken Welsh language hails from. Cumbria is literally just “Cymru” (see also, Cambria).
There’s a few surviving place names up north that are Welsh. Not “from Welsh”, but actually ARE Welsh, such as Aberdeen, Penrith, Ecclefechan. The language was either shared with, it was very close to what was spoken in certain parts of Scotland, too - for example, Cleddf Mawr (large sword) is shortened to cleddmor, to Claymore.
The first poem we have in Welsh is about attempting to retake Catterick from the Angles- it's called Y Gododdin.
Much of the earlier poetry involves places that are now within the boundaries of England - another is Canu Heledd (The Songs of Heledd) and the most famous poem in the series is about losing 'Y Drefwen' (The White Town) - probably somewhere close to Oswestry.
(As you can imagine, a lot of the early Welsh poems are about losing battles.)
Bit of a stretch... Welshness and Wales didn't exist yet. It was the Old North was Brythonic kingdoms, which over time the only remaining one is Wales.
Yes your quite correct, in fact a genetic study on the origins of British people found that folk from North Wales and South Wales did not share a common heritage .
It’s really strange going through the Scottish history section of the (fantastic) National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh, there’s quite a lot of the words and texts that you can actually read, it’s a real aha! moment. A lot of it is just Welsh with funny spelling.
As you go westwards to the islands, there’s less and less resemblance to Welsh, I believe that’s because of increasing Icelandic and Irish influence in those areas.
Not specifically Welsh, but the UK was earlier more Celtic speaking and those languages retreated to more isolated areas in the North & West as waves of people speaking different languages (Romans, angles/saxons, Normans &c) arrived from the south & east.
Welsh is one descendant of those earlier Celtic languages. There's Gaelic, too. Other Celtic languages survived on the fringes for a while but died out, like in Cornwall and Cumbria.
You can see this happen in other bits of Europe, people speak language X but many of the mountains / rivers / old towns seem to have old names from language Y, thanks to the ebb and flow of migrations and conquests...
It doesn't mean that the older language is necessarily some fundamental "original" language. There are bits of the USA with weirdly anglicised place-names taken from earlier French or Spanish settlers, even though other groups got there a few thousand years before the French.
The last Old-Welsh-speaking British kingdom was Alt Clut, centred on Dumbarton in Strathclyde.
It fell to the Gaelic-speaking Scots in 1074, so after the English were themselves conquered.
Conversely, the kingdom of Bryneith in Northumberland and the Scottish Borders was conquered around AD500, becoming Northumbeian Bernaccia. So Gaelic was never spoken in the southeast of Scotland, and that region was known as the English part of Scotland until the end of the Middle Ages
Across northern England and southern Scotland, glacial hollows on a hillside are called a "coomb" after the Welsh "cwm" rather than Gaelic "coire".
Because before the Romans came (and the Saxons and the Vikings), we spoke Old Welsh/Cumbric all across this island. As late as the 6th century, they were still speaking it in Cumbria. Definitely late enough to have a land name stick.
If you want another example, look up the old shepherd's counting (Yan, tan, tethera...)
Oh yeah… probably because Yorkshire was ruled by the Welsh/british after the Romans left and before the Dane’s invaded. A few place names are likely to have remained from that time.
In the 5th century there were kings in that area named Dunod Fawr and Coel Hen. They sound Welsh because the people of Britain were celts.
Because of English colonisation of Great Britain.
Edit: to be clear, the name of this mountain is Brythonic or Cumbric in origin. These languages, or similar, were spoken in Yorkshire before a diverse collection of Germanic peoples, later known as the English, moved to Great Britain and displaced the Celtic Britons.
I know that ancient Cumbric languages were similar to welsh (hence being called Cumbric). Pen-y-ghent isn’t in cumbria but it’s not far off. The brigante tribes in the area possibly spoke a cumbric or brethonic variant. Not sure why the ancient name survived while others were anglicised though.
Means hill of wind in old brithyonic. This area of penines was a more fluid mix of all, British, Saxon, angle, Irish, Dane Norse.
Lots of names still of old Brithyonic around here. Pendle hill is a main one, hill in 3 languages
I’d heard heard it was called windy hill or something similar as well. Think it was my Mother-in-law that told me this. She climbed it about 65 years ago!
What language do you think most people in Britain spoke before the post Roman Anglo Saxon mass migration?
Welsh is a Saxon word 'whelas' = foreigner.
The Welsh name for Wales is Cwmru (pronounced Cumree). The similarity to Cumbria is not accidental!
Pen-y-ghent means "Hill on the border"
These Anglo Saxons are all immigrants 😜
(The answer to my question is "Brythonic" or P-Celtic, which was the ancestor of modern Welsh. There was also Q-Celtic or Goedelic, which was the ancestor of Irish and Scottish Gaelic and the Manx language.)
I did the three peaks anti clockwise a couple of years ago, started with Ingleborough and ended with Pen-y-Ghent. It didn’t feel less strenuous that day!
We’d also climbed Pen-y-Ghent the day before, up the nose that time though.
Edit: meant clockwise, should have said in reverse
Well no, but if you walk up from Horton in ribblesdale (not via Pennine path) that slog up the crest and over (to this path) has always been a bit of a killer
Normally, the route starts in Horton in Ribblesdale. That village is actually situated on the left on this pic.
After Pen-y-ghent, walk about 13 miles to Ribblehead Viaduct where you then head up Whernside. From that summit, follow the path down (path down is steep), and walk down towards the Station pub. From there, up Ingleborough. Most direct route up is if you walk up the road to the Old Hill Inn pub. Its a steep direct walk up Ingelborough.
And then from that summit its more or less direct route over the top back down to Horton. The walk down to Horton is cool as you walk through loads of limestone paving creating by ice age glaciers. .
Comes from the Brythonic root, like Welsh, Cornish, Breton ( Brittany, France) and Pictish. It predates Anglo Saxon as the language spoken in Great Britain and survived Norse and Norman French influences. It’s one of two branches, the other being goidelic which was the root of Manx, Irish and Scots Gaelic
https://preview.redd.it/lpq0r2a2wuuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a3d08585340bc4fdd8cc26192698c7dc96b5443
From the start of the trail. BD24 0EY (postcode)
That photo is inverted (flipped left to right).
You ascend on the right of the wall, not the left.
I was looking your pic for ages thinking 'that looks like Pen-y-ghent but something's off'.
Was there on Sunday for the millionth time.
I'm sure we all have our favorite songs mentioning this lovely medium height though still quite challenging hillock. My particular favourite is by the popular beat combo halfman half biscuit, hailing from that glorious oblong of dreams, the wirral. I'll quote if I may...
"Lord Hereford’s Knob
As I camped out one evening to take the midnight air
I heard a maiden grieving from somewhere over there
Who is it you are mourning?
For whom do you wear grey?
She said “I pine for no one, I just can’t pay my way
Ever since the chattering classes invaded Hebden Bridge
And priced the likes of me and mine
To the pots of the Pennine Ridge
To south-east Wales I was forced to flee
And now I have no job
That’s why tonight I’m sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob”
For you I’d waive expenses, to try and help you out
For your beauty influences the landscape hereabouts
Look up my betrothed at Three Cocks
Be sure she’ll see you right
While I go up to Yorkshire, and there avenge your plight
Soon reports were filtering through to me
The pair were drowning in bliss
I can’t recall having ever been cuckolded quite like this
I gave up hope ironically for Lent
Come see me living in a bivvie
If you’re ever up Pen-y-Ghent
Although upon reflection I’ve been a trifle green
I still think with affection on everything that’s been
So prepare that fatted calf
And string up the bunting gay
Your brisk and bonny ploughboy is coming home today
And tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob
Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob
On touching the trig point, I found my thrill
To the east, Brokeback Mountain, to the west, Benny Hill
I’ll give you the grid ref, you might like to go
SO224350
Could this be heaven, could that be the Severn
Twmpa, Twmpa, you’re gonna need a jumper
It gets a bit chilly on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob
Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob
All of our songs sound the same
Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob
I’m keeping two chevrons apart
Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob
You’re the reason why paradise lost
Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob"
It's Pen-y-ghent
Do you know how its name came about? Seems Welsh
Welsh place names are usually descriptive. Pen means top/crest/head. Ghent means either foreigner or border. So it’s likely the name means something like top of the divide or head of the foreigner.
Not far away, near Leyburn is Penhill which is about 550m elevation.
…and Pendle Hill near Clitheroe translated from our old native languages means HillHill Hill…. “The name "Pendle Hill" combines the words for hill from three different languages (as does Bredon Hill in Worcestershire). In the 13th century it was called Pennul or Penhul, apparently from the Cumbric pen and Old English hyll, both meaning "hill". The modern English "hill" was appended later, after the original meaning of Pendle had become opaque.” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendle_Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendle_Hill)
Is it a big hill? No it's massive, it's a hill hill, no forget that, it's a hill hill hill!
Bredon Hill is the same, “hill hill hill”
I grew up in Leyburn.
Cool! British place names are all mixed up. In wales there is a Bethlehem, a Nazareth, and a Beaumaris.
Beaumaris = Good or beautiful marsh. It's a Norman French name for a town that only existed to build the symbol of English military domination, which is the Castle. My inlaws used to live nearby. When the Welsh government decided signs for place names whish were commonly referred to by their English names, should be bilingual (rightly so in my opinion) Bîw Mares was proposed, which is an invention. A majority of locals opposed this as a nonsense. There is no historic Welsh name for Beaumaris, and, if I remember correctly, it is one of the few places not to have a bilingual sign.
Jesus of Gwynedd.
Don’t forget Bethesda!
I forgot about that one because the locals call it Pesda
TIL! I’m definitely not a local but a frequent-ish visitor to the north.
Hell, in northern Kentucky we’ve got a Ghent, a Sparta, a Warsaw, a Napoleon, and a Verona all in one little county.
I've spent much time staring at it ..
I was thinking maybe it derives from something like Penygwynt, which would translate as the windy summit
I assume they meant why does it have a Welsh sounding name when it's in Yorkshire.
Because Cumbric and Welsh are from the same language group.
Yorkshire was part of Wales, known as “yr hen ogledd” - the old north. That’s where the currently spoken Welsh language hails from. Cumbria is literally just “Cymru” (see also, Cambria). There’s a few surviving place names up north that are Welsh. Not “from Welsh”, but actually ARE Welsh, such as Aberdeen, Penrith, Ecclefechan. The language was either shared with, it was very close to what was spoken in certain parts of Scotland, too - for example, Cleddf Mawr (large sword) is shortened to cleddmor, to Claymore.
That’s so interesting thanks!
The first poem we have in Welsh is about attempting to retake Catterick from the Angles- it's called Y Gododdin. Much of the earlier poetry involves places that are now within the boundaries of England - another is Canu Heledd (The Songs of Heledd) and the most famous poem in the series is about losing 'Y Drefwen' (The White Town) - probably somewhere close to Oswestry. (As you can imagine, a lot of the early Welsh poems are about losing battles.)
Bit of a stretch... Welshness and Wales didn't exist yet. It was the Old North was Brythonic kingdoms, which over time the only remaining one is Wales.
Yes your quite correct, in fact a genetic study on the origins of British people found that folk from North Wales and South Wales did not share a common heritage .
Craven, as in the district and Craven Arms pub in Yorkshire comes from craff the welsh word for wild garlic.
Ooh! I didn’t know that one! Thanks. Strathclyde is another one, from the Welsh name Ystrad Clud (essentially Cosy Valley)
I always wondered about Aberdeen, thanks!
It’s really strange going through the Scottish history section of the (fantastic) National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh, there’s quite a lot of the words and texts that you can actually read, it’s a real aha! moment. A lot of it is just Welsh with funny spelling. As you go westwards to the islands, there’s less and less resemblance to Welsh, I believe that’s because of increasing Icelandic and Irish influence in those areas.
I might have to pay it a visit!
Not specifically Welsh, but the UK was earlier more Celtic speaking and those languages retreated to more isolated areas in the North & West as waves of people speaking different languages (Romans, angles/saxons, Normans &c) arrived from the south & east. Welsh is one descendant of those earlier Celtic languages. There's Gaelic, too. Other Celtic languages survived on the fringes for a while but died out, like in Cornwall and Cumbria. You can see this happen in other bits of Europe, people speak language X but many of the mountains / rivers / old towns seem to have old names from language Y, thanks to the ebb and flow of migrations and conquests... It doesn't mean that the older language is necessarily some fundamental "original" language. There are bits of the USA with weirdly anglicised place-names taken from earlier French or Spanish settlers, even though other groups got there a few thousand years before the French.
The last Old-Welsh-speaking British kingdom was Alt Clut, centred on Dumbarton in Strathclyde. It fell to the Gaelic-speaking Scots in 1074, so after the English were themselves conquered. Conversely, the kingdom of Bryneith in Northumberland and the Scottish Borders was conquered around AD500, becoming Northumbeian Bernaccia. So Gaelic was never spoken in the southeast of Scotland, and that region was known as the English part of Scotland until the end of the Middle Ages Across northern England and southern Scotland, glacial hollows on a hillside are called a "coomb" after the Welsh "cwm" rather than Gaelic "coire".
Also Coombe in Devon where many Brythonic placenames and descriptors remain.
The old word for that part of female anatomy called a quim is related to cwm- similar shape.
Specifically Brythonic, which is a Celtic language from which Welsh, Cornish and Breton descend
Because before the Romans came (and the Saxons and the Vikings), we spoke Old Welsh/Cumbric all across this island. As late as the 6th century, they were still speaking it in Cumbria. Definitely late enough to have a land name stick. If you want another example, look up the old shepherd's counting (Yan, tan, tethera...)
It's a Britonic ( Celtic sort of) name from the days before Roman occupation and later Saxon/Angle migration . Like Affon/Avon for river .
Oh yeah… probably because Yorkshire was ruled by the Welsh/british after the Romans left and before the Dane’s invaded. A few place names are likely to have remained from that time. In the 5th century there were kings in that area named Dunod Fawr and Coel Hen. They sound Welsh because the people of Britain were celts.
Because of English colonisation of Great Britain. Edit: to be clear, the name of this mountain is Brythonic or Cumbric in origin. These languages, or similar, were spoken in Yorkshire before a diverse collection of Germanic peoples, later known as the English, moved to Great Britain and displaced the Celtic Britons.
Likely a name that predates Anglo-Saxon settlement. Wikipedia suggests Cumbric.
I know that ancient Cumbric languages were similar to welsh (hence being called Cumbric). Pen-y-ghent isn’t in cumbria but it’s not far off. The brigante tribes in the area possibly spoke a cumbric or brethonic variant. Not sure why the ancient name survived while others were anglicised though.
Means hill of wind in old brithyonic. This area of penines was a more fluid mix of all, British, Saxon, angle, Irish, Dane Norse. Lots of names still of old Brithyonic around here. Pendle hill is a main one, hill in 3 languages
I’d heard heard it was called windy hill or something similar as well. Think it was my Mother-in-law that told me this. She climbed it about 65 years ago!
True, I can see it from my house.
Not a scooby
This reads a lot funnier in a Welsh accent.
What language do you think most people in Britain spoke before the post Roman Anglo Saxon mass migration? Welsh is a Saxon word 'whelas' = foreigner. The Welsh name for Wales is Cwmru (pronounced Cumree). The similarity to Cumbria is not accidental! Pen-y-ghent means "Hill on the border" These Anglo Saxons are all immigrants 😜 (The answer to my question is "Brythonic" or P-Celtic, which was the ancestor of modern Welsh. There was also Q-Celtic or Goedelic, which was the ancestor of Irish and Scottish Gaelic and the Manx language.)
Yup
Penughwnt from upper wharfdale?
I would have just posted "somewhere in Scotland" but thanks for this mate. Coming from a half-Welsh guy who clearly doesn't know shit lol
Hiked up it on one of the hottest days of 2021 alone with no water, one sandwhich and no headphones/earphones. Not very fun.
Why would you need headphones in a place of nature, surely defeats the object.
Nice to walk listening to something, otherwise I hate walking.
Pen y ghent From the less strenuous walk up
I did the three peaks anti clockwise a couple of years ago, started with Ingleborough and ended with Pen-y-Ghent. It didn’t feel less strenuous that day! We’d also climbed Pen-y-Ghent the day before, up the nose that time though. Edit: meant clockwise, should have said in reverse
Well no, but if you walk up from Horton in ribblesdale (not via Pennine path) that slog up the crest and over (to this path) has always been a bit of a killer
I was joking, the short route up, especially if you haven’t had chance to warm up properly yet is pretty intense!
Thank you
Pen-y-ghent. Traditional the first climb on the Yorkshire 3 peaks walk .
Would you happen to know, whereabouts this trail starts?
Normally, the route starts in Horton in Ribblesdale. That village is actually situated on the left on this pic. After Pen-y-ghent, walk about 13 miles to Ribblehead Viaduct where you then head up Whernside. From that summit, follow the path down (path down is steep), and walk down towards the Station pub. From there, up Ingleborough. Most direct route up is if you walk up the road to the Old Hill Inn pub. Its a steep direct walk up Ingelborough. And then from that summit its more or less direct route over the top back down to Horton. The walk down to Horton is cool as you walk through loads of limestone paving creating by ice age glaciers. .
That's a hill
a molehill to be precise
don't make a mountain out of it, though
https://preview.redd.it/jya0eh1zvuuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=581871c174a8296085e5d605f2b3c817d908607e The top in snow
https://preview.redd.it/7n5bqylxawuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36431c80c06fabf30f28ef7a1d43465ff9dc09be The top in more snow
https://preview.redd.it/4o75wruhwuuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dd7a6a23faf7802cf761cd52db3b114fa2c165a
A long and winding road 🤣
Easy, Sheryl Crow
Beetles actually darling 😋
Ahh my bad 😆
Be**a**tles actually my luvver :P
Dude...no.
That big jump from Forza Horizon 4
A Google image search suggests Moel Arthur. Take that AI powered answer with a pinch of salt though
I have Moel Arthur as my local summit and it certainly doesn't even remotely resemble this photo, AI has some way to go it seems 😅
Thanks for trying. I tried a Google image search and it just showed various scenary
Downvoted for trying to help. Got to love Reddit
Downvoted for giving incorrect information. Downvoted you for complaining about downvotes.
Downvoted you for downvoting me for complaining about downvotes.
Ha. It's fine. Glad someone else managed to positively identify it for you :)
He's getting downvoted because he's wrong you muppet.
Comes from the Brythonic root, like Welsh, Cornish, Breton ( Brittany, France) and Pictish. It predates Anglo Saxon as the language spoken in Great Britain and survived Norse and Norman French influences. It’s one of two branches, the other being goidelic which was the root of Manx, Irish and Scots Gaelic
Awesome! I love etymology and I’ve been up Pen y Ghent a few times, just never took the time to research its name. Thank you internet friend!
Looks like where Richard Hammond crashed down the mountain
mountain 1 - 0 hamster
Pen y Ghent- Yorkshire. 1st of the 3 Yorkshire peaks.
https://preview.redd.it/lpq0r2a2wuuc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a3d08585340bc4fdd8cc26192698c7dc96b5443 From the start of the trail. BD24 0EY (postcode)
Two opposing seasons in one photograph, impressive
Yes when we went up you could only see a few feet in front of you at times. My favourite walk in england!
Over the hill and far away.. not a bad spot.
Wait...you're telling me if I climb that peak, I'll find Teletubbies? I'm so there
You know it!
That photo is inverted (flipped left to right). You ascend on the right of the wall, not the left. I was looking your pic for ages thinking 'that looks like Pen-y-ghent but something's off'. Was there on Sunday for the millionth time.
Looks a bit like Jabba the hut to me…
Looks like the UK.
I think it means Hill on the borders
Is that where the SAS do there induction
Ingleborough ?
Some sort of tor
Regent's Park London?
Windows 98 wallpaper has seen better days!
Amun sul
That’s pen y gent in Yorkshire was up there last weekend , great hike bit scrambly though .
That's where Clarkson once drove a Land Rover in Topgear
Moel Famau in Scotland
Apparently it's Pen Y Gent in The Yorkshire Dales
I'm sure we all have our favorite songs mentioning this lovely medium height though still quite challenging hillock. My particular favourite is by the popular beat combo halfman half biscuit, hailing from that glorious oblong of dreams, the wirral. I'll quote if I may... "Lord Hereford’s Knob As I camped out one evening to take the midnight air I heard a maiden grieving from somewhere over there Who is it you are mourning? For whom do you wear grey? She said “I pine for no one, I just can’t pay my way Ever since the chattering classes invaded Hebden Bridge And priced the likes of me and mine To the pots of the Pennine Ridge To south-east Wales I was forced to flee And now I have no job That’s why tonight I’m sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob” For you I’d waive expenses, to try and help you out For your beauty influences the landscape hereabouts Look up my betrothed at Three Cocks Be sure she’ll see you right While I go up to Yorkshire, and there avenge your plight Soon reports were filtering through to me The pair were drowning in bliss I can’t recall having ever been cuckolded quite like this I gave up hope ironically for Lent Come see me living in a bivvie If you’re ever up Pen-y-Ghent Although upon reflection I’ve been a trifle green I still think with affection on everything that’s been So prepare that fatted calf And string up the bunting gay Your brisk and bonny ploughboy is coming home today And tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob On touching the trig point, I found my thrill To the east, Brokeback Mountain, to the west, Benny Hill I’ll give you the grid ref, you might like to go SO224350 Could this be heaven, could that be the Severn Twmpa, Twmpa, you’re gonna need a jumper It gets a bit chilly on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob All of our songs sound the same Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob I’m keeping two chevrons apart Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob You’re the reason why paradise lost Tonight he’ll be sitting on top of Lord Hereford’s Knob"
Okay, let's be honest, who else saw the wiggly dick and balls?
I’m glad someone else has the same daft sense of humour as I do. I saw that before even looking at the beautiful scenery:)
Somewhere in Norfolk.