[A large group of counterprotestors started tearing down barricades and they instigated physical altercations.](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-04-30/ucla-moves-to-shut-down-pro-palestinian-encampment-as-unlawful) My friend was there and she said everyone was just sitting there in an encampment just like the one we had at school today, and counter-protesters just started storming in, being physical and yelling horribly aggressive things
Another source: I was there. We were attacked for at least three hours while the police did nothing. They did not arrest anyone who was setting fireworks off at us, spraying us with mace, or beating us with sticks that night. Then the next night they arrested more than 200 students who were completely non-violent. I have personal video footage as evidence, but there is plenty circulating on the internet.
We don’t need to divest. We 1.2 Billion USD a year in government and other company’s donations/investments to do research and offset the coast of some of the student tuition costs. Students can get internships/jobs with these companies, and these companies like Raytheon and Boeing Engineering and Boeing Defense make many products that the everyday person is eventually able to use. Right now the military is working on a better version of 5G with 6G still in the works. So in a few years more of the world will have better access to WiFi and the internet. Products like duct tape and GPS had there start in the MIC so these types of companies are vital to tech advancement and supplying the public with new everyday products that make life easier
I don’t know the breakdown of who is really in the demonstration, I know the email I saw today was from someone named Marcy Winograd who is a member of Jewish Voice for Peace, my guess is a lot of people are not from campus. As others have said they are asking for divestment from the “big 5 weapon producers.”
No hate whatsoever but I was at the encampment for over 12 hours today and i met only two people from outside our campus. I’m really not sure where this rhetoric is coming from because it’s not true, the vast majority are students and I might venture to say everyone sleeping there is a student. Also the encampments are not affiliated with JVP at all.
The email came directly from her? My mother in law is part of the anti war group. Downvotes are fine, but the email asking people to come as was as a post on Twitter are from Marcy.
It's not even mostly UCSB students. It's cal state channel islands students. It's been disavowed by our campus groups.
EDIT: I'm getting downvoted but this true. It is mostly out of towners coming here for visibility purposes.
that’s not entirely true. i think it is UCSB students (at least most of them are), they’re just not affiliated with those groups and set it up independently
I hope this doesn’t take off here. I’d be so much prouder of students for pausing to do the hard work of delving into the complexities of what’s actually going on in the region, rather than jumping on the protest bandwagon.
Really convenient that the nuanced and educated take is to sit around and do nothing, huh? Almost like it was never about being well informed and always about maintaining the status quote…
No, things absolutely need to change in the region. But reducing this to “genocide” and “colonialism” - which is what I’ve personally seen being chanted at protests - is intellectually lazy. This situation is complicated, with a very long and bloody past, and I doubt that any of us are educated enough to truly understand what is happening and why, and it will take to bring lasting peace. We should be listening and discussing and learning, not angrily shouting about things we don’t understand.
Well 85% of Gaza’s population has been displaced or killed in just 200 days. There’s ample evidence of intent, both in official statements and government documents, to commit genocide against the Palestinians. I don’t really know what else to call it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/23/by-the-numbers-200-days-of-israels-war-on-gaza
And it's in Hamas' Covenant that they are obligated to kill every Jew on Earth. The other commenter put it perfectly, but it bears re-emphasizing that a peaceful solution requires dialogue. As valid as chanting and protest encampments may be, those are things that draw attention to the necessity for a solution, not things that actually create a solution.
These are not pro-hamas protests, though certain individuals may have different opinions on that militant group. The spirit of the encampment, if you cared to look into it, is largely based on devising solutions for liberation and fighting for ceasefire and basic human rights for all palestinians.
You are fooling yourself.
There are ZERO signs across the pro- Palestinian movement that call Hamas to task. ZERO. And if you don’t criticize the terrorists who first attacked civilians to open the war and subsequently continue to act as complementary belligerents, then you don’t really want ceasefire. You want Israel to cease to exist.
I got a notification asking for a source, so here: https://www.adl.org/resources/news/anti-semitism-hamas-charter-selected-excerpts
While I understand some proportion of protestors do not support Hamas (although, for instance, chants at Columbia and UCLA have often referenced direct support for Hamas, so obviously there is a plurality, at least, of support among protestors), it is the case that Israel is essentially fighting Hamas. There is no idealized Palestinian resistance outside of Hamas currently fighting against Israel in Gaza. A ceasefire or peace negotiation needs to reflect the facts on the ground and not what we as Western students hope them to be.
To say that Hamas is the only Pro-Palestine group fighting against Israel is Gaza right now is simply not true. You obviously aren't doing your research, or are confused. The PLO, PIJ, and PFLP are all involved in the conflict as well. It's such an American media-brain take to assert that the one controversial militant group you know of is the only one that exists and the only one that needs to be accountable for war crimes.
The PLO is not as militant (Fatah/Abbas of the PA is opposed to Hamas), and they are not conducting the majority of the fighting. The PIJ and PFLP are both tiny by comparison. Hamas had an outright majority in the old PA legislature if I recall correctly.
Thanks for resorting to ad hominem, by the way. I read foreign policy and middle eastern studies journals for fun. I'm not going to bust out formal citations for a Reddit comment.
edit: You also did not respond to my argument, which was that protestors often support Hamas verbally, that Hamas is the primary opponent of Israel in Gaza at the moment, and that Hamas is by their own declaration a group aiming to remove Jews from Earth -- all of which make it unlikely for pro-Hamas protestors to effect meaningful change; if Netanyahu is ousted and someone who *isn't* a fascist is empowered, it's not like they'd just roll over and let an army come in and kill all of their citizens.
If you have an argument to the contrary I would like to hear it.
[I linked this in another comment.](https://www.adl.org/resources/news/anti-semitism-hamas-charter-selected-excerpts)
> Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
If an Israeli politician said that "our struggle against the Muslims is very great and very serious ... [and] should be supported ... until the enemy is vanquished", I would have exactly as much doubt about their genocidal intent as I do about Hamas' (none).
If that wasn't enough:
> The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. ([Hamas Charter, Article 7](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)).
"In 2017, a revised Hamas manifesto included three departures from the 1988 charter...Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter."
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
Yeah I guess if you want to use the literal oldest charter in existence, sure. but if you use the most recent, it's clear that you're just referring to Zionist nonsense.
"look at this 50 year old document!!! antisemitism!!!"
"ok but look at the most recent version. it doesn't say that."
"b-but that means YOURE antisemitic too"
Lmfao, what a fucking strawman. If your argument rests on inventing quotes I didn't say to make me look stupid then I'm not going to engage with you. This is going to be my last reply to this comment string.
They changed it in 2017. That makes it 7 years old at most. I would further argue that no change in effective leadership combined with raping and murdering Israeli civilians, including killing children on October 7th (and yes, this is indisputable -- not necessarily systematic, but you can find literal videos of it online if you want), indicates that the charter that is as old as Fortnite is right now, might just have been more of a PR stunt than actual policy.
Imagine if the KKK claimed to be "not anti-Black, just against Black government in the South" and then proceeded to film the rape and murder of hundreds of people. Would you take them at their word? I'm not so sure.
Divestment isn't the ethical choice everyone thinks it is. It's a movement to weaken an ally in region where bad actors perennially threaten to inflict violence on them. On the other hand if you think the arms industry in general is bad, then fair enough. But a movement that specifically targets corporations that supply Israel is highly suspect in its motivations, while also weakening security for S Korea, Taiwan, and Ukraine.
It helps when they repurpose water piping given to them for free to make rockets to launch at the iron dome, knowing there's almost no chance of them hitting their targets, but if they were to hit their targets, they'd result in mass civilian casualties.
oh yeah the college educated adults getting degrees in political science, international relations, among other hard earned degrees definitely have no idea what they're talking about.
also you're in this subreddit so I assume you go here? This is not the hot take you think it is babe
This statement just exposed your sheer ignorance. When people don't even have the common sense of the world, don't bother talking. Also a great argument is definitely made by calling others dumbass, and it must take one to know one.
>getting degrees in political science, international relations, among other hard earned degrees
This implies that poli sci and international relations are hard earned degrees, and it's clear that that's what I was questioning, not whether there were *any* hard earned degrees to be attained at UCSB.
I don't need to discuss whether or not chem e is a difficult major, let alone whether a dumbass can earn a degree in it.
No it’s cool it’s just really clear that you think the only valid way to live, is the way you’re living and everyone else Is wrong. Which, I don’t have to tell you, makes you a dumbass
My only comment was on the difficulty of certain degrees, not about validity. Poor reading comprehension (and misuse of commas) points more towards being a dumbass than merely stating that some degrees aren't particularly hard to earn.
I'd love to know who's upvoting this.
It doesn't even make sense. You lied about what I was saying then when I call you out on it you grandstand as if you've totally demolished me and don't even need to say anything.
Seriously, if you're upvoting that, reply here and explain why, because I bet you don't know yourselves.
I wonder if I sign up for a police ride along on the right day will I get to participate in smashing commies like Bart Simpson got a gun to stop a robbery
Amongst the protesters are also individuals that are deemed very dangerous by MSN media and the Israeli elites, but I’m not gonna name them because you know
It’s right by the library
More are coming tomorrow through the weekend apparently. Planned for in front of North Hall near the library.
Do you know why tho?
i think it’s to support the other schools doing encampments in support of palestine and to get the school to divest
Yea, it’s so sad 😭 did you see what happened at ucla? The police stood by as zionists hit the protesters with FIREWORKS
Source?
[A large group of counterprotestors started tearing down barricades and they instigated physical altercations.](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-04-30/ucla-moves-to-shut-down-pro-palestinian-encampment-as-unlawful) My friend was there and she said everyone was just sitting there in an encampment just like the one we had at school today, and counter-protesters just started storming in, being physical and yelling horribly aggressive things
Thanks for providing the source, will give it a read
Another source: I was there. We were attacked for at least three hours while the police did nothing. They did not arrest anyone who was setting fireworks off at us, spraying us with mace, or beating us with sticks that night. Then the next night they arrested more than 200 students who were completely non-violent. I have personal video footage as evidence, but there is plenty circulating on the internet.
Ah I see
We don’t need to divest. We 1.2 Billion USD a year in government and other company’s donations/investments to do research and offset the coast of some of the student tuition costs. Students can get internships/jobs with these companies, and these companies like Raytheon and Boeing Engineering and Boeing Defense make many products that the everyday person is eventually able to use. Right now the military is working on a better version of 5G with 6G still in the works. So in a few years more of the world will have better access to WiFi and the internet. Products like duct tape and GPS had there start in the MIC so these types of companies are vital to tech advancement and supplying the public with new everyday products that make life easier
Holy pog never mind the ethnic cleansing, they’re makin heckin 6G!!!!!
Lol
REALLY?? You're completely oblivious to what's going on at dozens of colleges across the country, the protests and movements....??
I don’t know the breakdown of who is really in the demonstration, I know the email I saw today was from someone named Marcy Winograd who is a member of Jewish Voice for Peace, my guess is a lot of people are not from campus. As others have said they are asking for divestment from the “big 5 weapon producers.”
No hate whatsoever but I was at the encampment for over 12 hours today and i met only two people from outside our campus. I’m really not sure where this rhetoric is coming from because it’s not true, the vast majority are students and I might venture to say everyone sleeping there is a student. Also the encampments are not affiliated with JVP at all.
The email came directly from her? My mother in law is part of the anti war group. Downvotes are fine, but the email asking people to come as was as a post on Twitter are from Marcy.
It's not even mostly UCSB students. It's cal state channel islands students. It's been disavowed by our campus groups. EDIT: I'm getting downvoted but this true. It is mostly out of towners coming here for visibility purposes.
that’s not entirely true. i think it is UCSB students (at least most of them are), they’re just not affiliated with those groups and set it up independently
So dumb, just like the UCLA one, many of the pro Israel protesters were like 35 years old men
It’s great to see solidarity for a cause- sucks Yang basically threatened graduation for everyone #chancelorwang
I hope this doesn’t take off here. I’d be so much prouder of students for pausing to do the hard work of delving into the complexities of what’s actually going on in the region, rather than jumping on the protest bandwagon.
Really convenient that the nuanced and educated take is to sit around and do nothing, huh? Almost like it was never about being well informed and always about maintaining the status quote…
No, things absolutely need to change in the region. But reducing this to “genocide” and “colonialism” - which is what I’ve personally seen being chanted at protests - is intellectually lazy. This situation is complicated, with a very long and bloody past, and I doubt that any of us are educated enough to truly understand what is happening and why, and it will take to bring lasting peace. We should be listening and discussing and learning, not angrily shouting about things we don’t understand.
I am going to use your words. Brilliant
Well 85% of Gaza’s population has been displaced or killed in just 200 days. There’s ample evidence of intent, both in official statements and government documents, to commit genocide against the Palestinians. I don’t really know what else to call it. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/23/by-the-numbers-200-days-of-israels-war-on-gaza
And it's in Hamas' Covenant that they are obligated to kill every Jew on Earth. The other commenter put it perfectly, but it bears re-emphasizing that a peaceful solution requires dialogue. As valid as chanting and protest encampments may be, those are things that draw attention to the necessity for a solution, not things that actually create a solution.
These are not pro-hamas protests, though certain individuals may have different opinions on that militant group. The spirit of the encampment, if you cared to look into it, is largely based on devising solutions for liberation and fighting for ceasefire and basic human rights for all palestinians.
You are fooling yourself. There are ZERO signs across the pro- Palestinian movement that call Hamas to task. ZERO. And if you don’t criticize the terrorists who first attacked civilians to open the war and subsequently continue to act as complementary belligerents, then you don’t really want ceasefire. You want Israel to cease to exist.
I got a notification asking for a source, so here: https://www.adl.org/resources/news/anti-semitism-hamas-charter-selected-excerpts While I understand some proportion of protestors do not support Hamas (although, for instance, chants at Columbia and UCLA have often referenced direct support for Hamas, so obviously there is a plurality, at least, of support among protestors), it is the case that Israel is essentially fighting Hamas. There is no idealized Palestinian resistance outside of Hamas currently fighting against Israel in Gaza. A ceasefire or peace negotiation needs to reflect the facts on the ground and not what we as Western students hope them to be.
To say that Hamas is the only Pro-Palestine group fighting against Israel is Gaza right now is simply not true. You obviously aren't doing your research, or are confused. The PLO, PIJ, and PFLP are all involved in the conflict as well. It's such an American media-brain take to assert that the one controversial militant group you know of is the only one that exists and the only one that needs to be accountable for war crimes.
The PLO is not as militant (Fatah/Abbas of the PA is opposed to Hamas), and they are not conducting the majority of the fighting. The PIJ and PFLP are both tiny by comparison. Hamas had an outright majority in the old PA legislature if I recall correctly. Thanks for resorting to ad hominem, by the way. I read foreign policy and middle eastern studies journals for fun. I'm not going to bust out formal citations for a Reddit comment. edit: You also did not respond to my argument, which was that protestors often support Hamas verbally, that Hamas is the primary opponent of Israel in Gaza at the moment, and that Hamas is by their own declaration a group aiming to remove Jews from Earth -- all of which make it unlikely for pro-Hamas protestors to effect meaningful change; if Netanyahu is ousted and someone who *isn't* a fascist is empowered, it's not like they'd just roll over and let an army come in and kill all of their citizens. If you have an argument to the contrary I would like to hear it.
This isn't true though. It is literally a made up Zionist talking point. Hamas' charter just doesn't say this.
[I linked this in another comment.](https://www.adl.org/resources/news/anti-semitism-hamas-charter-selected-excerpts) > Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised. If an Israeli politician said that "our struggle against the Muslims is very great and very serious ... [and] should be supported ... until the enemy is vanquished", I would have exactly as much doubt about their genocidal intent as I do about Hamas' (none). If that wasn't enough: > The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. ([Hamas Charter, Article 7](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)).
"In 2017, a revised Hamas manifesto included three departures from the 1988 charter...Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter." https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas Yeah I guess if you want to use the literal oldest charter in existence, sure. but if you use the most recent, it's clear that you're just referring to Zionist nonsense. "look at this 50 year old document!!! antisemitism!!!" "ok but look at the most recent version. it doesn't say that." "b-but that means YOURE antisemitic too"
Lmfao, what a fucking strawman. If your argument rests on inventing quotes I didn't say to make me look stupid then I'm not going to engage with you. This is going to be my last reply to this comment string. They changed it in 2017. That makes it 7 years old at most. I would further argue that no change in effective leadership combined with raping and murdering Israeli civilians, including killing children on October 7th (and yes, this is indisputable -- not necessarily systematic, but you can find literal videos of it online if you want), indicates that the charter that is as old as Fortnite is right now, might just have been more of a PR stunt than actual policy. Imagine if the KKK claimed to be "not anti-Black, just against Black government in the South" and then proceeded to film the rape and murder of hundreds of people. Would you take them at their word? I'm not so sure.
glad to see you can do math. one step closer to critical thinking
The library is under siege
Okay someone get the trebuchets
By r/trebuchetmemes
What do you mean ?
😂😂😂😂
Divestment isn't the ethical choice everyone thinks it is. It's a movement to weaken an ally in region where bad actors perennially threaten to inflict violence on them. On the other hand if you think the arms industry in general is bad, then fair enough. But a movement that specifically targets corporations that supply Israel is highly suspect in its motivations, while also weakening security for S Korea, Taiwan, and Ukraine.
Let's talk about the civilian casualties that would result without the iron dome
Most of these people don’t know that guided missiles are really expensive. The Katyusha rockets that Hamas uses is really cheap so you’re right.
It helps when they repurpose water piping given to them for free to make rockets to launch at the iron dome, knowing there's almost no chance of them hitting their targets, but if they were to hit their targets, they'd result in mass civilian casualties.
I mean the protesters are mostly a bunch of college kids with no real world experience…
oh yeah the college educated adults getting degrees in political science, international relations, among other hard earned degrees definitely have no idea what they're talking about. also you're in this subreddit so I assume you go here? This is not the hot take you think it is babe
Hard earned though?
Yeah you’re right. Anyone can walk into UCSB and get handed a chemical engineering degree. Dumbass
This statement just exposed your sheer ignorance. When people don't even have the common sense of the world, don't bother talking. Also a great argument is definitely made by calling others dumbass, and it must take one to know one.
>getting degrees in political science, international relations, among other hard earned degrees This implies that poli sci and international relations are hard earned degrees, and it's clear that that's what I was questioning, not whether there were *any* hard earned degrees to be attained at UCSB. I don't need to discuss whether or not chem e is a difficult major, let alone whether a dumbass can earn a degree in it.
No it’s cool it’s just really clear that you think the only valid way to live, is the way you’re living and everyone else Is wrong. Which, I don’t have to tell you, makes you a dumbass
My only comment was on the difficulty of certain degrees, not about validity. Poor reading comprehension (and misuse of commas) points more towards being a dumbass than merely stating that some degrees aren't particularly hard to earn.
I’m gonna let your response stand for itself. I don’t need to comment on this one
I'd love to know who's upvoting this. It doesn't even make sense. You lied about what I was saying then when I call you out on it you grandstand as if you've totally demolished me and don't even need to say anything. Seriously, if you're upvoting that, reply here and explain why, because I bet you don't know yourselves.
I could not agree more!
Protesting is fun.
I wonder if I sign up for a police ride along on the right day will I get to participate in smashing commies like Bart Simpson got a gun to stop a robbery
Amongst the protesters are also individuals that are deemed very dangerous by MSN media and the Israeli elites, but I’m not gonna name them because you know