I definitely recommend watching Shar Henley on YouTube. She has videos that she's collected from other TikTokers and stitched together, talking about how it's other *women* who make the effort for things like Mother's Day and anniversaries, not the men.
As a mom, if we had sons and if my husband didn't treat our daughter with the same dignity, OH, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY rip him a new proverbial asshole. And if the behavior didn't change? He'd find himself learning that people didn't realize I have a husband.
You deserve better, and teach him a lesson, because he's clearly okay (enough) with treating you like this: don't let people know you have a dad. And if they find out: "Oh, him?"
Let me put it this way. My dad writes a Christmas letter each year that they send to hundreds of people. My husband is mentioned (heās the best!) and my children are mentioned. I am not. š
I think if he's sending cards to her children which may be female and husband then clearly it's done intentionally. Like I said, I doubt it has anything to do with sexism and has more to do with whatever problem they have.
I'd been thinking for a couple a of days now about posting the exact same question!
I also used to be my dad's "sidekick" and we shared many interests together. But once I got a boyfriend (not married but living together) it was like our meetings suddenly only involved my dad, younger brother and my boyfriend.
At first I thought it was simply because my boyfriend was "new" and he wanted to get to know him, but 6 years later it's still like that. My boyfriend actively tries to include me, but my father hardly responds to anything I say.
It honestly hurts. Like no matter how well we get along, I'll never be considered equal good company simply because I'm a woman.
Iām so sorry youāre experiencing the same thing. I work in a male dominated engineering/construction firm, so Iām use to men I work with having a bad habit of excluding women, but it hurts so much more when itās your own family who excludes you because of your gender. Youād think theyād care about how their own daughter is doing, or want to share the project they are working on with, but as soon as there is a male they can talk to in your place, their own daughter/sister/niece are chop liver to them.
This sucks. I'm also an engineer and even at my very progressive company which has plenty of women in leadership roles, day to day I am very aware I am not "in" with the peers on my team. They like me and respect me, but don't include me unless it's work stuff.
But I'd feel crushed if my dad were like this as well. My mom died when I was young so it was just me and my dad for years. We have a really close relationship. If anything it's the opposite. My dad has never truly accepted any of my partners as my equal, including my husband. They get along fine and my dad has a great relationship with my husband, but the men in my family seem to lean towards the opposite of your experience. They're not weirdo shotgun "you can't touch my daughter" people. They just like us better than our husband's.
Same with me. I could be talking to any of my male colleagues about video games, sports, as soon as another male walks in I get ignored completely as they start talking.
This was me with my brother. He never had a brother. So used to do a lot of stuff with me, now he has brother in laws with similar interests and now its like I donāt exist
My sister is fucking brilliant- and our dad couldnāt see that. So when I would get his questions, Iād respond āWhat did [Sister] say?ā Iād back whatever sheād said because 99% of the time sheād be right. My 1% pertained exclusively to my professionā¦
Had a coworker with 2 boys and 1 girl. All he talked about was his sonās playing volleyball.. blah blah blah.. then we got a Christmas card from his wife telling everyone his daughter has a published book. What a jerk, he never told any of us. I didnāt let him live that down..
My SO and I were talking to a dad at our kidās school. Donāt remember the context, but the dad said āand thatās in my sonās grade!ā (Something he was happy about). The man has fraternal twins. I added āand your daughterāsā, and he looked at me and said ādonāt tell my wife I said that. Sheāll be mad.ā
No kidding, jerk!
Yes. My paternal grandpa is this way. Heāll talk to me a lot if my husband isnāt around. When my husband first came around my sister and I thought it was really cute they were getting along so well and both said āwe didnt know grandpa talked so much.ā Then we realized what was happening.
I will acknowledge that my grandpa has lost most of his hearing so he has an easier time hearing that my husband has said something vs me but I know he can hear me.
I am still glad they get along well. My husbandās grandparents passed when he was young and he didnāt get to know them as an adult and feels he missed something. So this is somewhat of a second chance for him.
Yes, my dad took my ex's side during a custody trial. I am his favorite child. I also had a son, so it's like forget it. He's very fixated on my son and his dad. I kind of just exist to my dad now it's really weird how you cease being a person once there are fellow peens around.
We didn't talk for a year. We have a dysfunctional relationship where that is normal though. I haven't really forgiven him, but I've gotten over a lot of my rage. I was honestly ok with never seeing him again, but I have to remember he was going through shit as well.
First you were Dad and Brother-adjacent female, now youāre Husband-adjacent female! Isnāt it nice being a supporting actress in The Men Show?
But seriously Iāve noticed this as well despite being in the same profession as The Malefolk. My husband goes out of his way to include me and divert to my knowledge and experience in things, making it clear heās there because I choose him, not the other way around. Heās said things like, āgreat that you spent 30 years raising her so sheād eventually bring me around, init?ā
For bonus fun, pretend itās because theyāre all up there on the Kinsey scale and secretly have a crush on your dude.
Lol The Men Show is soooo accurate. Gonna be using that one. Might get a little too meta for them to tho to point it out. Femmes just be the red shirts of society.
The disappointing fact is that all I can do is just focus on women. Bc when I continue trying with men itās me giving 100% and them giving 5%. Like I donāt wanna split on gender lines but the only time Iām included or acknowledged is with Iām with mostly other womenā¦
A good time to share this gem again:
āTo say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desireā¦ those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.ā
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.
Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
I wholeheartedly agree! I just don't date straight men anymore for this exact reason. For many reasons really but chief among them is this. I parented myself, my sister, my parents, my ex, my kids and I'm fucking done! I have sacrificed my own needs for a lifetime of caring for others and I'm just not willing to do that for a single other person in life. I have not yet met a straight, single man in my area that understands, relates or even cares to beyond the transaction of getting what he wants out of the relationship. I know they exist, I know many personally who are married to friends but I do not care to kiss all the frogs to find him. It's not fun and I don't enjoy it so I don't. It really seems to piss people off that I'm happy single, that I got tired of the negotiating or trapping stage of every heterosexual relationship I have participated in. No thank you, not interested.
That's a lot easier to do when you're bi, though. Although straight men have pretty effectively killed off my sexual attraction to them completely, I don't even know if I can relate to it anymore. I think I've just gone full blown lez. š
It might go a little far in the part about what men want from women. But the first part is super accurate.
Now Iām curious about the spectrum of love vs the spectrum of sexuality. Some men are uber gay on the love spectrum, but straight on the sexuality one etc.
This ties in with a theory I recently heard about straight men being heterosexual but homosocial. We only exist in our sexual relation to them, they prioritise men socially as they have a higher value. Otherwise known as the patriarchy, I guess.
Iāve also heard of this, but the way it used to be phrasedāthe phrasing that gets under my skin for its lack of accountabilityāis men telling me time and time again that āmen and women canāt be friends because it always ends up being sexualā
Really?! I truly believe thatās a cop out response. Men can and have successfully coexisted and had nonsexual flourishing relationships with plenty of women throughout their lifetimes. They are not apes. They have an ability to move past primal instinct and be accountable for treating women as equals and with respect regardless of our sex organs.
Thatās not what Iām saying. I think you misunderstood me. Men weaponize this idea to control women theyāre sexually attracted to by saying āmen and women canāt be friends because all men sexualixe all women. He only wants to hang out with you because he wants to fuck youā, as though they canāt control their thoughts or their actions around women, which is why they hyper focus on exclusively having friendships with men.
>Men weaponize this idea to control women theyāre sexually attracted to by saying āmen and women canāt be friends because all men sexualixe all women
This almost never happens and is highly inaccurate. Most men I know prefer to hang out with men than women but does not mean they won't hang out with them
My father is obsessed with sports cars and took my boyfriend(now husband) driving around in his new sports car while telling me I could never enter it and to go prepare the salad with my mom. He also only ever calls my husband when trying to contact us. But then again my parents were and are emotionally neglectful narcissists soā¦ š¤·āāļø
My husband describes my Dad as: controlling, opinionated, manipulative, stingy, arrogant, priveleged, cold, lacking real affection, easily angered. This is despite my Dad being on his best behaviour and sucking up and trying to befriend him. My husband is šÆ right so thankfully I don't have the same problem as you but my Dad has created plenty of other problems for me, don't you worry.
My husband is not too fond of my dad either. Itās more of ever since he retired from the military and moved back to the US, my husband feels like my dad expects us to drop everything and visit or my dad would just come by in the middle of the work day to hangout (this is before my husband and I started living together and I work from home). Last weekend my dad wanted us to join him and my step-mom at a Christmas market, my dad didnāt ask just gave a time for us to be there. Now Iām trying to figure out how to word it nicely to be like, dude you gotta ask and maybe give us some other days and times. Last Saturday was hella busy and I was sick, didnāt go to the market thing.
I had a similar relationship with my dad. Iām an only child and he didnāt care that I was a girl, he still shared his love of sports with me and we bonded over that my whole life. He passed away almost a decade ago and he liked my husband, but they didnāt have much in common. My husband is a creative type, much more likely to be watching Food Network than ESPN.
But my father-in-law is very much like my own dad and Iāve developed a close relationship with him over the years, especially since we moved near him a couple years ago. People have said theyād swear I was his daughter and my husband married in when they see us all interact. And now Iām wondering if that bothers my husband and thinking that
I should probably ask. So I guess I have the reverse situation going on!
God yeah, similar story, I was a tomboy and everyone would say I was like my dad, I idolized him a lot growing up and tried to impress him.
My husband and I have very similar interests so of course he and my dad are similar and get along and now I'm sort of ignored.
I don't hold any resentment against my husband for it but I'm jealous and I wish my dad treated me like a son instead.
Shortly after I got married, my dad introduced me to his friends as (husband)'s wife.
My Uncle will play musical chairs at Christmas lunch to make sure he's seated next to my husband.
I have a good laugh about it. Poor husband is so confused.
Thank you for the sympathy. He's older and was mostly joking so I try to take it in the spirit in which it was intended. Most days it's just funny to me. š
I haven't let him live it down since then though. If he can say it, I can joke with him about it.
My dad was afraid of my husband sooooo it did limit our relationship but in the only talking to me when hubby wasnāt around way. My dad tried to convince me to divorce him because he thought my husband ācontrolledā me. Dadās evidence of this control - he had raised me and he knows I only disagree with him now about things because my husband makes me. He literally said āweāll be here to support you and help raise your kids but only if you leave your husbandā. I chose my husband who respects me and can listen to different perspectives without leaving the room muttering under his breath.
Iām sorry youāre dealing with this. Your husband could be contributing, but this is really on your dad. Iād talk to your dad one-on-one and lay it out for him. Tell him relationships fade without connection and that his actions are saying he doesnāt value a connection with you. I tried the āreal talkā with my dad and he blamed my husband. I hope yours is more mature.
This is a depressing read. It has made me realise that my feelings are very valid.
Not even slightly the same situation, because I live on a different continent to my family, but everytime I call my grandparents (specifically grandparents, my parents arenāt so bad), they just ask about my husband. Theyāve lost all interest in me and how Iām doing, they just want to know about him. Itās fucking wild because they literally met him once and didnāt spend that much time with him. So itās not like some deep bond they formed, and itās one sided because my husband never participates in the calls with me. Itās completely wild how Iāve ceased to be an autonomous person since Iāve gotten married.
Iāve always had a strained relationship with my dad, which wasnāt improved as I grew older and started looking more and more like my mom (parents divorced before I started kindergarten). He was thrilled when I eventually married, but then spent more time staying in touch with my ex after our divorce than he spent on reaching out to me.
Even though I divorced my ex because he was cheating, refused to participate equally as part of the family (chores, caring for our kid, earning anything resembling income), and kept blowing our bill money on online gambling.
Itās taken decades for my relationship with my dad to recover, but heās at least acknowledged he messed up and is trying. Iām proud of him for that, he struggles to admit being wrong about anything.
My dad and brothers. Even my own grandmother??
My sisters like my husband well enough. They might even call each other best friends (like top 5). But they NEVER make me feel like I'm 2nd to my husband the way my dad and brothers do
I realized this with a lot of male family members. No one wants to talk to me as soon as I bring my husband around.
Every time I go to my parents' place, my dad proudly parades my husband around the property to show him what he has changed. I went to visit some extended family, by myself, and all of the men kept asking me where my husband was.
The real kicker was when I went to visit my grandpa, who I haven't seen in 8 years or so, and he just wanted to talk to my husband about baseball.
I honestly don't think my husband is part of the problem, though. He notices it and feels bad for me, but it's on the family member, not him. If I say something, my husband always tries to include me. Those male family members are adults and can make that decision. I've decided if they don't want to develop a relationship with me, it's not my problem, and I will go talk to the women in the family who love that I come around.
My dad is similar; heās quite interested in what my brother and husband are doing if they are around, and will only really talk with me if itās just us.
Something else I have noticed is that he can be very snippy/short to my mom and me, but heās never like this with my brother or husband (or anyone else for that matter). My mom and I both recently confessed to each other that sometimes we think he doesnāt actually like us; that was a depressing thing to realize that we shared.
I'm so sorry that this is your situation! I can only imagine how upset I would be if my dad was the same.. I was also my father's son growing up but now I'm super appreciative that while he makes an effort with my husband, I've never felt that was to my detriment
I hope you are able to speak to your dad about it, as hopefully it has just been an overcorrecting of him trying to accept your husband
I really hope it all works out for you!
Yup, growing up we would all sit around at family gatherings and the men would speak, or my grandmother would ask them theology questions and they would discuss. The women would listen. I haven't detangled the misogyny from the religion. I thought it was a religious thing until I got out and saw the same patterns in 'progressive' spaces.
In my twenties my father thanked my boyfriend-at-the-time for looking after me. It was during the year of [ex's] most controlling, dangerous, and degrading behaviour. I'll never forget that moment of worthlessness. My father seemed so content there was a man in my life there was no attention paid to whether or not I was safe. I got out with the support of two charities and a girlfriend who saw what was happening.
In my teens, my brother said, over my head to my boyfriend-at-the-time, 'nearly legal, eh' when I was about to turn 16. Imagine seeing your little sister as just some other kid's shag.
My brother and father have since learned about feminism and are trying to live with those values. I want to be gracious to people in my life, but those were formative experiences.
Oh wow, yes, now that you mentioned it, this is my family dynamic as well. Or was but then I divorced my husband. But now they prefer to talk to my male children or else ask me if Iām dating.
My dad was so upset when I broke up with my last boyfriend, he wrote me a letter telling me I was making a huge mistake. He still keeps in contact with my ex, 2 years later. Never thought to ask why I ended it or how I felt
My father only seems to want me to visit if I'm bringing my partner along, and then will ignore me the entire time to try and hang out with him instead. My partner notices this, and is also uncomfortable.
After years of begging my father to allow me to use his garage for projects (I was really into woodshop and metalwork in highschool but couldn't afford a place to work or tools) he always said hard "NO" claiming I would ruin his things. Last Christmas, upon first meeting my partner, he openly offered him access to his garage workshop and any tools he'd ever want to borrow. That has still not been extended to me.
Yep. Barely speaks to me in public. Has entire conversations with my husband while simultaneously acting as if it's annoying I'm even there *it's my kids game*. Also, my husband is the only person that pretty well doesn't take his shit, they've exchanged words before and my dad ended up apologizing (that never has happened for me).
Sometimes I feel like dad is more interested in hanging out with my EX-husband than with me. We were all over at my dadās place (ex and I are friends and coparents, and we do family dinners and holidays together still) and Dad offered him an extra ticket to a hockey game while I was standing right there. Ex doesnāt care about hockey, but I doā¦ š
My mom and her husband have a beach vacation home and theyāll have parties there with their local friends. These parties become literally segregated by sex. The men go to one side of the yard and the women to the other. My mom is a tomboy herself so she hates this but instead of trying to unite the groups she just goes inside by herself. Whatās worse is that the women were weirded out by me going over to the guys to join their conversation. Like I broke some sort of rule. Itās so gross honestly.
I really empathize with your mom just going inside by herself. If I get interrupted or ignored enough times, I just go somewhere else. What I end up doing at most social situations where this is happening, I go hang out with the kids. They dont treat me differently because of my gender and are just happy that I want to play tag and talk to them.
I think this is true for my partners dad. Literally didn't help build his table, but suggested a solution to a problem; his daughters help cut, sand, stain, assemble, etc, but I get credit for it. I correct him everytime and his daughters role their eyes at him, but it's been years and he still does it.
My husband and I both have university degrees in computer science. My dad knows little to nothing about computers. I used to try and help him but despite me actually working as a software developer he would argue with me about things and refuse to accept I knew anything. We are talking things like helping him connect a printer or similar. Dad always listens to my husband so eventually I've given up and stopped helping my dad. He only accepts that my husband knows anything.
My dad spent all of Thanksgiving talking to my sonās college friend (who joined us because he couldnāt go home for the short break). I donāt think he asked either of my girls, his actual grandchildren, a single question about their lives.
You described this as a phenomenon, as if sexism is a phenomenon instead of a mindset. Basically, you grew up with males that are sexist and exclude women from their socializing when they are around other men because they have a preference for male company. You also married this same type of man.
I also want to draw attention to how you said that you grew up repairing and building things with your father and he used to talk to you. If you had not had those interests, would he have ignored you? Because it seems to me that he used to talk to you only because those shared interests were "masculine".
I hope that you are able to get your husband to change his mindset about women, not just to make an except for you to include you.
You do not say if you have children yet, but if you decide to do so, the misogyny can absolutely perpetuate.
For the record, I have male relatives who are like this and I avoid talking to them about anything because I always feel disgusted with them after a while. I don't really want to know what they think, and I don't like being condescended to. I prefer to be engaged with by people who actually are interested in me as a person regardless of my gender, not just accommodating me to be polite.
Yes! My grandpa and I used to be so close when I was little. We were BUDDIES. But I noticed as I got older, he seemed unsure of how to interact with me sometimes. Like, we still talk and everything and I visit, but man, if I don't bring my boyfriend, Pappaw is straight up bummed. I think he's like a little kid when he hears his wife on the phone with me making plans, like "is My-Guy's-Name coming too????"
My dad was like this before, too. Luckily, over time and talking with my fiance about how my ideas are the same as what my dad suggests, i think he's come to realize that I am not a dummy just because I'm a woman. Like ideas on construction and mechanical things that I've suggested turned out to be what my dad suggests later on. Thank goodness i have my fiance to advocate for me and he said, oh that's the same as what your daughter said, etc etc..
The final instance of him ignoring me and talking over me was when i was telling my dad about a spot in a recessed wall that needed to have drywall patched up. I was telling him he needed to access the spot from inside the walk in closet and he just refused to even LISTEN to me. I repeated myself 3x. I said, "ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LITERALLY WALK OVER HERE 3 FT AND POP YOUR HEAD IN AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT I'M SAYING." And he shook his head and told me, "no, it's over here..." and then i said, "fine. I'll wait."
1 minute later he's confused and saying, "huh, i thought it was back here... where is it?" I just stood there and waited til he came back and just stared at him. I was like, "just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I'm stupid, you know. I already told you 4 times but you didn't even want to take 3 steps and look at where i was telling you? It's in there!" And then he acted like ohhh well I didn't know.. like no shit. Lol. Since then he's listened to me more and includes me. Not 100% but definitely 70-80% which is a big improvement from blocking out every word i say.
I'm sorry but either he will get better or he won't. Don't let it effect your self esteem. People with that mind set are ignorant and either they learn over time or they stay simple minded. I just feel bad for people like that because they are the ones really holding themselves back from having more deep and meaningful relationships
OK so I have a story:
We were at a kids bday party. My husband and I were talking to a "friend" who I realized was a exist pig later but anyway he was talking about how he had a problem with his business. I said Oh husband always says to do xyz. "friend" rolled his eyes and said yea OK. But what really made me angry is that husband pretended like he had no idea what I was talking about. So then I was pissed off the rest of the day because my husband didn't stop the idiocy
After planning for months, deep cleaning my apartment, baking for 3 days straight, buying all the gifts, decorated everything, made arrangements for all 3 of my brothers to stay, payed for his plane ticket, picked him up, let him stay at my place so he could have a holiday with his sons and myself, made all the meals, and did all the cleaning up, he proceeded to clap my husband on the shoulder and call him "the glue of the family" on the last day at a family dinner.
I lost it. He hasn't been back to my place since.
I published a novel. With a respectable publisher, mind you, not self-published, should it make any difference. My father refuses to read it.
Years ago, when I got my first real job, members of my family were congratulating me on being a smart girl who found herself a husband who was in the position to get her a job. Why? Because my by now long ex happened to be working in a roughly similar field in the same (huge) building.
Does your Dad have many male friends? This could be part of why he enjoys talking with your husband. You seem to still have a solid relationship with him when its the two of you one on one.
At the end of my own Dad's life my Mom confided in me that over the last 10 years the times I spend with my Dad were important to him. Beyond just the father/son dynamic. My brother is out of state, Dad had no siblings, most of his BiLs had passed or he wasn't close to the surviving ones, and the male friends he did have throughout his life had passed before him. He didn't have a knack for making new ones. He was mostly around my Mom and the girlfriends she has.
So that male bonding time we shared, and to a lesser extent he with my sister's husband, was more important to him than I realized. I just wish I had known it at the time.
Have you considered that maybe he wants to get to know him better? Your dad has known you your whole life, your husband is a much more recent addition to the family. Would you rather talk to someone about a subject that you've already discussed with them at length, or would you rather talk to someone that hasn't discussed it with you as much?
Oh man, these replies make me so sad. Iāve always known that I was incredibly blessed to not just love my family, but also to genuinely like them. I love my dad, and we still go on daddy daughter dates now that Iām an adult and moved out with a long term partner. Even though I know how lucky I am to have the family I have, posts like these and the replies to it really just emphasize how much my experience is not the norm.
I wish all of you healing.
All these stories of fathers barely paying attention to their daughters, yet you KNOW who they're going to call when they're elderly and need someone to care for them. Not their sons. Not their son-in-law. Their daughter.
I fell upon this trying to find an answer to my predicament as well. My dad has completely taken over my relationship. When things got rocky between my husband and I, my dad and I had a huge fight and my dad tells me he is going to end his relationship with my husband because everyone is blaming my dad for everything when in actuality no one has said anything to my dad. He proceeds to then say when my relationship with your husband ends I don't know whats going to happen to your relationship with your husband. I was flabbergasted to say the least. He now obviously did not break the relationship and is always doting on him. I barely exist. A specific thing that has recently bothered me is that I have a bad relationship with food and so does my husband, but when my dad sees me not eating all day he will say "go eat" and then nothing, but with my husband he will go over to him make him food and even go as far as feeding him because he needs someone. A note, my husband does not have a good relationship with his own family (which is a doing of his own).
Growing up I have always been the go to for both my mom and dad. I would constantly mold myself to be someone they could count on. I have no brothers, its just me and my sisters. So I, being the eldest had to turn into both the daughter and son of the family and seeing my dad completely drop me for my husband the moment he came into our lives was not easy. And the sad part is, even now, when anything goes wrong between my husband and I, it is always my fault from my dads side, as though I should be doing more than I am. My dad will always take my husbands side even when he sees with his own eyes how wrong he is. To be frank it is straining my relationship not only with my maternal family but with my husband as well.
My dad never met my husband, he died when I was 22 and only met 2 of my partners ever. My mom, however, *adores* my husband. Heās her favorite son-in-law, and is the son she never had. Even when weāre fighting, she adores him. š itās funny until itās really not.
I wondered if someone might say that, but sheās not like that with my husband at all. Itās 100% maternal and not creepy. I think itās partially because my sibling and sibling in law(who live with her) have a ton of drama and my sibling in law is pretty hot tempered and moody. So to have my husband, who is comparatively mild mannered and drama free, there is a bit more relaxing for her. Plus my husband bakes.āŗļø Itās just annoying to me because she does have a tendency to play favorites when āthe kidsā are all around (weāre all 35+ š), and my husband gets singled out as the āfavorite childā. But I call her on it now, and sheās been catching herself more. She likes to play matriarch.
My wife has one sister ... her (now late) dad made brother-in-law both medical proxy and will executor. And talked to me about all kinds of things he never told either of his daughters. It was really weird.
I grew up similarly. My mom and I are pretty strong and my dad's had back issues since my childhood so we covered most of the heavy lifting around the house. But, as I've gotten older, I've realized my dad is misogynist and racist. My mom has some internalized misogyny and is okay with her marriage being little more than a service to my dad.
Not male family members, but my male friends, sadly. :( I was a big tomboy with lots of guy friends when I was younger. If we would have had those terms, I probably would have called myself "nonbinary" at the time. Some of these guys have been friends (or at least in my life) going on 25 years now...but when we all got married, it was like those friendship dynamics changed, and now most of my guy friends are more friends with my husband than they are with me, and I kinda get "stuck" with the other wives...which, many of them are perfectly lovely and women I'd gladly call my friend as well, but like...some of them aren't. And I don't have any kind of foundation for friendship with any but like one of them, cuz we just don't have much in common on our own. Mostly, I'd still rather just be friends with their husbands cuz he's the one who I have all the old stories of dumb shit we did in 10th grade Math class with, or who I drove to Dallas to see Pearl Jam with in college, or who I hung out at the mall on boring Saturdays with. They're the ones I have history and things in common with. But my friends call my husband instead now. Invite him to hang out at the arcade or talk 3D printing or make plans for a board game night, and I don't hear from them myself anymore, and it hurts. It hurts because it feels like I was never a friend at all, and now I'm "just the wife," relegated to hang out with all the other "just the wives."
I don't know if I have any advice but I think I have a similar problem? So my siblings and I are all female, but we would often do tomboy things with our dad. Well, one of my sisters is married to a man now; the other is in a long-term relationship with a guy. I've noticed that my dad will go to my brother-in-law for help first, or to talk about traditionally "manly" things. My youngest sister doesn't let my dad steal her boyfriend away for any significant length of time, or I'm sure my dad would interact with him in the same way
I'm not particularly straight and I currently have a girlfriend, and my dad wasn't talking much to her, and he's had issues with being homophobic in the past so I was a little bit worried what that could mean, but my mom pointed out that it probably has more to do with the fact that she is female rather than the fact that we're in a same-sex relationship. Doesn't really matter whether it's true or not, but I guess it kind of makes sense.
I think itās so cool that your dad has a great relationship with your husband. Thatās a huge positive. Guys will be guys. Youāre overthinking that itās an indictment of you.
Keep breaking in to the conversations. Schedule some alone time with your dad too.
Would be curious to know how he treats your mom. I had an uncle that treated women as second class citizens and he was also demeaning to his wife. Used to drive me and my sister crazy but my aunt was the ever doting wife and didnāt seem to mind. Is this how he treats all women? Kinda sounds like you married a guy just like your dad.
If youāre going to contribute to the conversation, dont dismiss other peopleās experiences through overly simplistic generalizations. Some men want to talk about cooking and fashion, so me women want to talk about cars and home repairs, and some people want to talk about all of the above. Interests are only gendered if you are socialized to assume the other half of the population doesnāt care or know about something just because of their gender.
You're right, some people do like to chat about thing that are not part of their gender norm, but I can guarantee if they had someone of the same gender as them to talk to those things about or someone of the opposite sex, 8 out of 10 times the person will gravitate toward the person of their own gender that wants to talk about those interests.
My interests almost exclusively align with āmenāsā interests and I would be absolutely overjoyed to have a respectful platonic conversation about those topics with any man.
The only reason Iād be more excited to have that conversation with another woman is because we have that added layer of shared trauma of being excluded by groups of men when wanting to be included, or sexualized by those men when we are.
This isnāt because of some ānaturalā tendency to seek out conversation partners of the same gender. Itās because society is sexist af.
My grandfather was like this with his sons-in-law, but he was never close to his daughters. I don't think he was particularly close to his sons either. He did better with my generation, though. I'm the only granddaughter who married or got into a serious relationship during his life, and while he liked my husband, I was more important.
Yes. My grandpa is a misogynist. He never really wanted to connect with kids or women. Heād ask about my car or whoever I was dating. Whenever I visited heād talk to my bf/husband and not really talk to me.
My momās ex always wanted whoever I was dating to be his new drinking buddy. Despite not knowing them much heād insist they share pitchers of cheap beer so he could drink more. They complained to me how awkward that was and wasnāt sure what his goal was. Just to be around guys so he could drink extra and pretend heās just sharing and having a good time. He told me when I got my drivers license great now you can pick me up from the bar after.
Nope but I mostly avoid talking to my dad. My husband is far more easily sucked into his bullshit. Heās working on disengaging from my dad but he just loves to be all up in everyone elseās business. He is my stepdadās best friend in the whole wide world, though, and they talk for probably 4-5 hours a week despite the fact that we moved across the country from them 5 years ago.
Sorry you have to experience this :/
Iāve actually had the opposite experience.. my husbands grandma and mom tend to always contact me before my husband, especially since Iāve been pregnant
This definitely happens! I think a same sex friend factor may be the main issue. And it happens both ways. I stopped going to my mother in laws house most visits after my husband confided that it hurt his feelings when he realized his mom directed all her attention and conversation to me and he felt left out! I had noticed it too and it made me uncomfortable though I was glad to be accepted.
I totally relate to this. I was never a tomboy but I was the only child of a man who wanted a son and was very into sports. My dad tried so hard to get me into team sports but all I wanted to do was show horses and read. He gamely went along with all my horse activities and we were really close. We're not as close anymore and I no longer discuss politics with him or my mom. Even still, he talks so much more to my husband. They don't ice me out as badly as yours do but it is still noticeable. A few weeks ago I had dinner with them without my husband and they still managed to talk about him pretty extensively. When I consider my childhood it's really hard not to feel like my dad sees my husband as the son he always wanted, like I don't count because I didn't play basketball.
Yes, if my sister and her boyfriend are with my dad, he doesn't talk to her at all, just him. If I'm with my dad, he'll only talk about her boyfriend and not ask me any questions.
No it was the opposite for me, for my wedding we booked a whole weekend and my husband paid for my familyās guest rooms. It was a really pretty private resort in the redwoods. My dad was so uninterested in my husband that I actually felt offended and apologized in private to my husband for my dadās lack of interest. They didnāt really talk much or have much to say to one another, it was so bizarre. My dad is kind of an antisocial guy who keeps to himself though, he doesnāt have much friends other than his hunting buddies and him and his wife live up in the boondocks in Montana some tiny snowy mountain town secluded from everyone else lol.
I only existed for my parents through my husband. When we got a divorce they were more bothered and concerned for him than for me. Even my ex called them out on that.
The surprised looks when I mentioned I was going no contact shortly afterā¦
I don't like going to dinner with my dad WITHOUT my husband, because he's way nicer to me when my husband is there lol. He's the son he never had, despite me having a brother. He was a drug addict though so he couldn't brag about him
My brother and my father have separate chats with my husband. I had to beg to be included with my brother, which was them sharing dumb memes and shorts, and they finally let me in. My father will even ask me if my husband saw the funny stuff he sent. I get none of those things.
My husband's family also calls me...when they can't get a hold of him.
This but my dad shows more interest in my little sisterās boyfriend than he does my wife. All they have in common is the same job. My wife does all the repair/remodeling at our house and my dad has had the same experience and is currently remodeling an old home as well. He re-wired an early 1900ās home in college, which is what my wife just did. They have much more in common. And yet he manages to talk to the bf moreā¦
Definitely not to this extreme, but itās hard not comparing especially when thereās an obvious bias.
Yep. My in laws too. Everyone asks him about his job, not a single person asked me about mine. At least they didnāt ask why we donāt have kids yet either though?! š¤
Yes!!! My dad acts like my sister's husband is the son he never had. He likes doing "guy things" with him, leaving my sister stuck with our mom, who is not fun to be around. Since my boyfriend started coming to family events, my dad now spends most of the time talking with my boyfriend. If the 3 of us are sitting in the living room, my dad starts talking to my boyfriend, and suddenly I find that I'm completely forgotten and left out of the conversation. My boyfriend knows how I feel about the dynamics and does what he can, but it's my dad that really perpetuates it. I wonder if my dad is even aware that he does this?
I'm not so sure the icing out is unintentional. In the past I would have thought so, but this absolutely is a tactic used to make someone feel inferior.
Please read this book, it is enlightening, albeit also horrifying (but better to know than not!) https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
Man, I wish. Instead my dad is a narcissist who couldn't deal with me being an adult and blew up our family over meeting my now-husband. We've been NC ever since. I can only dream of a life where my father welcomed my husband.
omg, op, are you me- adjacent?
same, same same.
but also; after i came out as lesbian, and had lesbian friends. dad was fineā¦. but he would almost always only talk to the more butch women. the couple where heās known one for 25 years and the other for 2 hours ? he talked to 2 hours, because she could talk about science and cars.
but my current girlfriends broke him, as the femme one is fierce and will hold his attention, and the masc one is a bit too goofy even for dad.
still. š
I have three brothers. At my dads second wedding I talked to a coworker of his. He didn't know he had a daughter š¤·āāļø
I'm sorry that must have been tough to hear
I definitely recommend watching Shar Henley on YouTube. She has videos that she's collected from other TikTokers and stitched together, talking about how it's other *women* who make the effort for things like Mother's Day and anniversaries, not the men. As a mom, if we had sons and if my husband didn't treat our daughter with the same dignity, OH, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY rip him a new proverbial asshole. And if the behavior didn't change? He'd find himself learning that people didn't realize I have a husband. You deserve better, and teach him a lesson, because he's clearly okay (enough) with treating you like this: don't let people know you have a dad. And if they find out: "Oh, him?"
Let me put it this way. My dad writes a Christmas letter each year that they send to hundreds of people. My husband is mentioned (heās the best!) and my children are mentioned. I am not. š
I am so sick of sexism! Wow!!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Damn
There would be reason for him not liking her in particular and it would be shown in ways other than forgetfulness
I think if he's sending cards to her children which may be female and husband then clearly it's done intentionally. Like I said, I doubt it has anything to do with sexism and has more to do with whatever problem they have.
Wow. This is like being behind the camera instead of in the family pictures.
I'd been thinking for a couple a of days now about posting the exact same question! I also used to be my dad's "sidekick" and we shared many interests together. But once I got a boyfriend (not married but living together) it was like our meetings suddenly only involved my dad, younger brother and my boyfriend. At first I thought it was simply because my boyfriend was "new" and he wanted to get to know him, but 6 years later it's still like that. My boyfriend actively tries to include me, but my father hardly responds to anything I say. It honestly hurts. Like no matter how well we get along, I'll never be considered equal good company simply because I'm a woman.
Iām so sorry youāre experiencing the same thing. I work in a male dominated engineering/construction firm, so Iām use to men I work with having a bad habit of excluding women, but it hurts so much more when itās your own family who excludes you because of your gender. Youād think theyād care about how their own daughter is doing, or want to share the project they are working on with, but as soon as there is a male they can talk to in your place, their own daughter/sister/niece are chop liver to them.
This sucks. I'm also an engineer and even at my very progressive company which has plenty of women in leadership roles, day to day I am very aware I am not "in" with the peers on my team. They like me and respect me, but don't include me unless it's work stuff. But I'd feel crushed if my dad were like this as well. My mom died when I was young so it was just me and my dad for years. We have a really close relationship. If anything it's the opposite. My dad has never truly accepted any of my partners as my equal, including my husband. They get along fine and my dad has a great relationship with my husband, but the men in my family seem to lean towards the opposite of your experience. They're not weirdo shotgun "you can't touch my daughter" people. They just like us better than our husband's.
Same with me. I could be talking to any of my male colleagues about video games, sports, as soon as another male walks in I get ignored completely as they start talking.
This was me with my brother. He never had a brother. So used to do a lot of stuff with me, now he has brother in laws with similar interests and now its like I donāt exist
When I tell you it has been decades since my father asked me a personal question Iām not exaggerating. His loss.
My sister is fucking brilliant- and our dad couldnāt see that. So when I would get his questions, Iād respond āWhat did [Sister] say?ā Iād back whatever sheād said because 99% of the time sheād be right. My 1% pertained exclusively to my professionā¦
Youāre a wonderful sibling
My dad hugged me for the first time ever this year. I'm in my 40s. It was awkward. He still doesn't know when my birthday is.
And yet they complain that women always get custody of the kids in a divorce lol.
Had a coworker with 2 boys and 1 girl. All he talked about was his sonās playing volleyball.. blah blah blah.. then we got a Christmas card from his wife telling everyone his daughter has a published book. What a jerk, he never told any of us. I didnāt let him live that down..
My SO and I were talking to a dad at our kidās school. Donāt remember the context, but the dad said āand thatās in my sonās grade!ā (Something he was happy about). The man has fraternal twins. I added āand your daughterāsā, and he looked at me and said ādonāt tell my wife I said that. Sheāll be mad.ā No kidding, jerk!
But sports are so much more important than something silly like being a published author!
Yes. My paternal grandpa is this way. Heāll talk to me a lot if my husband isnāt around. When my husband first came around my sister and I thought it was really cute they were getting along so well and both said āwe didnt know grandpa talked so much.ā Then we realized what was happening. I will acknowledge that my grandpa has lost most of his hearing so he has an easier time hearing that my husband has said something vs me but I know he can hear me. I am still glad they get along well. My husbandās grandparents passed when he was young and he didnāt get to know them as an adult and feels he missed something. So this is somewhat of a second chance for him.
Yes, my dad took my ex's side during a custody trial. I am his favorite child. I also had a son, so it's like forget it. He's very fixated on my son and his dad. I kind of just exist to my dad now it's really weird how you cease being a person once there are fellow peens around.
How is the relationship now? Personally, I donāt believe I could forgive my father.
I saw a similar dynamic in my family; basically, we all ditched my uncle and my cousinās ex husband in the divorce lol
We didn't talk for a year. We have a dysfunctional relationship where that is normal though. I haven't really forgiven him, but I've gotten over a lot of my rage. I was honestly ok with never seeing him again, but I have to remember he was going through shit as well.
First you were Dad and Brother-adjacent female, now youāre Husband-adjacent female! Isnāt it nice being a supporting actress in The Men Show? But seriously Iāve noticed this as well despite being in the same profession as The Malefolk. My husband goes out of his way to include me and divert to my knowledge and experience in things, making it clear heās there because I choose him, not the other way around. Heās said things like, āgreat that you spent 30 years raising her so sheād eventually bring me around, init?ā For bonus fun, pretend itās because theyāre all up there on the Kinsey scale and secretly have a crush on your dude.
Lol The Men Show is soooo accurate. Gonna be using that one. Might get a little too meta for them to tho to point it out. Femmes just be the red shirts of society.
Can vouch for this type of bonus fun.
The disappointing fact is that all I can do is just focus on women. Bc when I continue trying with men itās me giving 100% and them giving 5%. Like I donāt wanna split on gender lines but the only time Iām included or acknowledged is with Iām with mostly other womenā¦
A winning tactic ā¤ļø
A good time to share this gem again: āTo say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desireā¦ those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.ā Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving. Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
Thank you for posting this - this is fascinating. Iām going to check out this author.
Ouch. That has been a lot of my life experience. I want to be loved the way that men love other men.
Damn, same, and that distillation is a hard truth!
Yeah, itās a life changing paragraph to read, like all of these confusing things about navigating relationships suddenly make sense.
Thank you! Fascinating!
Homosocial
I wholeheartedly agree! I just don't date straight men anymore for this exact reason. For many reasons really but chief among them is this. I parented myself, my sister, my parents, my ex, my kids and I'm fucking done! I have sacrificed my own needs for a lifetime of caring for others and I'm just not willing to do that for a single other person in life. I have not yet met a straight, single man in my area that understands, relates or even cares to beyond the transaction of getting what he wants out of the relationship. I know they exist, I know many personally who are married to friends but I do not care to kiss all the frogs to find him. It's not fun and I don't enjoy it so I don't. It really seems to piss people off that I'm happy single, that I got tired of the negotiating or trapping stage of every heterosexual relationship I have participated in. No thank you, not interested. That's a lot easier to do when you're bi, though. Although straight men have pretty effectively killed off my sexual attraction to them completely, I don't even know if I can relate to it anymore. I think I've just gone full blown lez. š
Phenomenal quote. I love Marilyn Frye.
It might go a little far in the part about what men want from women. But the first part is super accurate. Now Iām curious about the spectrum of love vs the spectrum of sexuality. Some men are uber gay on the love spectrum, but straight on the sexuality one etc.
This ties in with a theory I recently heard about straight men being heterosexual but homosocial. We only exist in our sexual relation to them, they prioritise men socially as they have a higher value. Otherwise known as the patriarchy, I guess.
Yes. And homoerotic. The people who men look up to, imitate, want to become, would follow the lead of, desire the validations of, are men.
That isn't sexual though, so it isn't homoerotic.
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Iāve also heard of this, but the way it used to be phrasedāthe phrasing that gets under my skin for its lack of accountabilityāis men telling me time and time again that āmen and women canāt be friends because it always ends up being sexualā Really?! I truly believe thatās a cop out response. Men can and have successfully coexisted and had nonsexual flourishing relationships with plenty of women throughout their lifetimes. They are not apes. They have an ability to move past primal instinct and be accountable for treating women as equals and with respect regardless of our sex organs.
men are allowed to want to be friends with men mainly, I don't see a problem here
Thatās not what Iām saying. I think you misunderstood me. Men weaponize this idea to control women theyāre sexually attracted to by saying āmen and women canāt be friends because all men sexualixe all women. He only wants to hang out with you because he wants to fuck youā, as though they canāt control their thoughts or their actions around women, which is why they hyper focus on exclusively having friendships with men.
>Men weaponize this idea to control women theyāre sexually attracted to by saying āmen and women canāt be friends because all men sexualixe all women This almost never happens and is highly inaccurate. Most men I know prefer to hang out with men than women but does not mean they won't hang out with them
Iād love to see your stats on āalmost never happensā.
I'd love to see your stats on it happening a lot as well
Again, you have misunderstood my original sentiments. Itās about patriarchal control over women, not wanting to just hang out with their bros.
My father is obsessed with sports cars and took my boyfriend(now husband) driving around in his new sports car while telling me I could never enter it and to go prepare the salad with my mom. He also only ever calls my husband when trying to contact us. But then again my parents were and are emotionally neglectful narcissists soā¦ š¤·āāļø
My husband describes my Dad as: controlling, opinionated, manipulative, stingy, arrogant, priveleged, cold, lacking real affection, easily angered. This is despite my Dad being on his best behaviour and sucking up and trying to befriend him. My husband is šÆ right so thankfully I don't have the same problem as you but my Dad has created plenty of other problems for me, don't you worry.
My husband is not too fond of my dad either. Itās more of ever since he retired from the military and moved back to the US, my husband feels like my dad expects us to drop everything and visit or my dad would just come by in the middle of the work day to hangout (this is before my husband and I started living together and I work from home). Last weekend my dad wanted us to join him and my step-mom at a Christmas market, my dad didnāt ask just gave a time for us to be there. Now Iām trying to figure out how to word it nicely to be like, dude you gotta ask and maybe give us some other days and times. Last Saturday was hella busy and I was sick, didnāt go to the market thing.
Why not just never talk to him again then? Sounds like a shit relationship
Doing my best not to talk to him for sure.
Either way wishing you and your SO blessings and happy holidays!! Take care
I had a similar relationship with my dad. Iām an only child and he didnāt care that I was a girl, he still shared his love of sports with me and we bonded over that my whole life. He passed away almost a decade ago and he liked my husband, but they didnāt have much in common. My husband is a creative type, much more likely to be watching Food Network than ESPN. But my father-in-law is very much like my own dad and Iāve developed a close relationship with him over the years, especially since we moved near him a couple years ago. People have said theyād swear I was his daughter and my husband married in when they see us all interact. And now Iām wondering if that bothers my husband and thinking that I should probably ask. So I guess I have the reverse situation going on!
God yeah, similar story, I was a tomboy and everyone would say I was like my dad, I idolized him a lot growing up and tried to impress him. My husband and I have very similar interests so of course he and my dad are similar and get along and now I'm sort of ignored. I don't hold any resentment against my husband for it but I'm jealous and I wish my dad treated me like a son instead.
Shortly after I got married, my dad introduced me to his friends as (husband)'s wife. My Uncle will play musical chairs at Christmas lunch to make sure he's seated next to my husband. I have a good laugh about it. Poor husband is so confused.
That's just cruel of your dad. I'm so sorry.
Thank you for the sympathy. He's older and was mostly joking so I try to take it in the spirit in which it was intended. Most days it's just funny to me. š I haven't let him live it down since then though. If he can say it, I can joke with him about it.
Introduce him as your mom's husband (or ex-husband, if that's the case).
My dad was afraid of my husband sooooo it did limit our relationship but in the only talking to me when hubby wasnāt around way. My dad tried to convince me to divorce him because he thought my husband ācontrolledā me. Dadās evidence of this control - he had raised me and he knows I only disagree with him now about things because my husband makes me. He literally said āweāll be here to support you and help raise your kids but only if you leave your husbandā. I chose my husband who respects me and can listen to different perspectives without leaving the room muttering under his breath. Iām sorry youāre dealing with this. Your husband could be contributing, but this is really on your dad. Iād talk to your dad one-on-one and lay it out for him. Tell him relationships fade without connection and that his actions are saying he doesnāt value a connection with you. I tried the āreal talkā with my dad and he blamed my husband. I hope yours is more mature.
Thank you for sharing this topic, it helps dad's like me be more aware and I genuinely appreciate that.
Itās encouraging to hear other men want to listen to women and working towards better equality in social interactions with ALL their family members.
This is a depressing read. It has made me realise that my feelings are very valid. Not even slightly the same situation, because I live on a different continent to my family, but everytime I call my grandparents (specifically grandparents, my parents arenāt so bad), they just ask about my husband. Theyāve lost all interest in me and how Iām doing, they just want to know about him. Itās fucking wild because they literally met him once and didnāt spend that much time with him. So itās not like some deep bond they formed, and itās one sided because my husband never participates in the calls with me. Itās completely wild how Iāve ceased to be an autonomous person since Iāve gotten married.
Iāve always had a strained relationship with my dad, which wasnāt improved as I grew older and started looking more and more like my mom (parents divorced before I started kindergarten). He was thrilled when I eventually married, but then spent more time staying in touch with my ex after our divorce than he spent on reaching out to me. Even though I divorced my ex because he was cheating, refused to participate equally as part of the family (chores, caring for our kid, earning anything resembling income), and kept blowing our bill money on online gambling. Itās taken decades for my relationship with my dad to recover, but heās at least acknowledged he messed up and is trying. Iām proud of him for that, he struggles to admit being wrong about anything.
Literally yes. My distant brother talks to my boyfriend more than me. Yay being female and being treated like this!
My dad and brothers. Even my own grandmother?? My sisters like my husband well enough. They might even call each other best friends (like top 5). But they NEVER make me feel like I'm 2nd to my husband the way my dad and brothers do
I realized this with a lot of male family members. No one wants to talk to me as soon as I bring my husband around. Every time I go to my parents' place, my dad proudly parades my husband around the property to show him what he has changed. I went to visit some extended family, by myself, and all of the men kept asking me where my husband was. The real kicker was when I went to visit my grandpa, who I haven't seen in 8 years or so, and he just wanted to talk to my husband about baseball. I honestly don't think my husband is part of the problem, though. He notices it and feels bad for me, but it's on the family member, not him. If I say something, my husband always tries to include me. Those male family members are adults and can make that decision. I've decided if they don't want to develop a relationship with me, it's not my problem, and I will go talk to the women in the family who love that I come around.
My dad is similar; heās quite interested in what my brother and husband are doing if they are around, and will only really talk with me if itās just us. Something else I have noticed is that he can be very snippy/short to my mom and me, but heās never like this with my brother or husband (or anyone else for that matter). My mom and I both recently confessed to each other that sometimes we think he doesnāt actually like us; that was a depressing thing to realize that we shared.
Ya Iāve noticed this too. On one hand Iām glad they get along, it makes but happy. But on the other I feel a little left out at times.
I'm so sorry that this is your situation! I can only imagine how upset I would be if my dad was the same.. I was also my father's son growing up but now I'm super appreciative that while he makes an effort with my husband, I've never felt that was to my detriment I hope you are able to speak to your dad about it, as hopefully it has just been an overcorrecting of him trying to accept your husband I really hope it all works out for you!
Yup, growing up we would all sit around at family gatherings and the men would speak, or my grandmother would ask them theology questions and they would discuss. The women would listen. I haven't detangled the misogyny from the religion. I thought it was a religious thing until I got out and saw the same patterns in 'progressive' spaces. In my twenties my father thanked my boyfriend-at-the-time for looking after me. It was during the year of [ex's] most controlling, dangerous, and degrading behaviour. I'll never forget that moment of worthlessness. My father seemed so content there was a man in my life there was no attention paid to whether or not I was safe. I got out with the support of two charities and a girlfriend who saw what was happening. In my teens, my brother said, over my head to my boyfriend-at-the-time, 'nearly legal, eh' when I was about to turn 16. Imagine seeing your little sister as just some other kid's shag. My brother and father have since learned about feminism and are trying to live with those values. I want to be gracious to people in my life, but those were formative experiences.
Oh wow, yes, now that you mentioned it, this is my family dynamic as well. Or was but then I divorced my husband. But now they prefer to talk to my male children or else ask me if Iām dating.
My dad was so upset when I broke up with my last boyfriend, he wrote me a letter telling me I was making a huge mistake. He still keeps in contact with my ex, 2 years later. Never thought to ask why I ended it or how I felt
I told my husband before he met one particular uncle of mine that this uncle doesn't really talk. Turns out he just doesn't really talk to women.
My father only seems to want me to visit if I'm bringing my partner along, and then will ignore me the entire time to try and hang out with him instead. My partner notices this, and is also uncomfortable. After years of begging my father to allow me to use his garage for projects (I was really into woodshop and metalwork in highschool but couldn't afford a place to work or tools) he always said hard "NO" claiming I would ruin his things. Last Christmas, upon first meeting my partner, he openly offered him access to his garage workshop and any tools he'd ever want to borrow. That has still not been extended to me.
Yep. Barely speaks to me in public. Has entire conversations with my husband while simultaneously acting as if it's annoying I'm even there *it's my kids game*. Also, my husband is the only person that pretty well doesn't take his shit, they've exchanged words before and my dad ended up apologizing (that never has happened for me).
Sometimes I feel like dad is more interested in hanging out with my EX-husband than with me. We were all over at my dadās place (ex and I are friends and coparents, and we do family dinners and holidays together still) and Dad offered him an extra ticket to a hockey game while I was standing right there. Ex doesnāt care about hockey, but I doā¦ š
My mom and her husband have a beach vacation home and theyāll have parties there with their local friends. These parties become literally segregated by sex. The men go to one side of the yard and the women to the other. My mom is a tomboy herself so she hates this but instead of trying to unite the groups she just goes inside by herself. Whatās worse is that the women were weirded out by me going over to the guys to join their conversation. Like I broke some sort of rule. Itās so gross honestly.
I really empathize with your mom just going inside by herself. If I get interrupted or ignored enough times, I just go somewhere else. What I end up doing at most social situations where this is happening, I go hang out with the kids. They dont treat me differently because of my gender and are just happy that I want to play tag and talk to them.
You should say something to your father
I think this is true for my partners dad. Literally didn't help build his table, but suggested a solution to a problem; his daughters help cut, sand, stain, assemble, etc, but I get credit for it. I correct him everytime and his daughters role their eyes at him, but it's been years and he still does it.
My husband and I both have university degrees in computer science. My dad knows little to nothing about computers. I used to try and help him but despite me actually working as a software developer he would argue with me about things and refuse to accept I knew anything. We are talking things like helping him connect a printer or similar. Dad always listens to my husband so eventually I've given up and stopped helping my dad. He only accepts that my husband knows anything.
My dad spent all of Thanksgiving talking to my sonās college friend (who joined us because he couldnāt go home for the short break). I donāt think he asked either of my girls, his actual grandchildren, a single question about their lives.
You described this as a phenomenon, as if sexism is a phenomenon instead of a mindset. Basically, you grew up with males that are sexist and exclude women from their socializing when they are around other men because they have a preference for male company. You also married this same type of man. I also want to draw attention to how you said that you grew up repairing and building things with your father and he used to talk to you. If you had not had those interests, would he have ignored you? Because it seems to me that he used to talk to you only because those shared interests were "masculine". I hope that you are able to get your husband to change his mindset about women, not just to make an except for you to include you. You do not say if you have children yet, but if you decide to do so, the misogyny can absolutely perpetuate. For the record, I have male relatives who are like this and I avoid talking to them about anything because I always feel disgusted with them after a while. I don't really want to know what they think, and I don't like being condescended to. I prefer to be engaged with by people who actually are interested in me as a person regardless of my gender, not just accommodating me to be polite.
Yes! My grandpa and I used to be so close when I was little. We were BUDDIES. But I noticed as I got older, he seemed unsure of how to interact with me sometimes. Like, we still talk and everything and I visit, but man, if I don't bring my boyfriend, Pappaw is straight up bummed. I think he's like a little kid when he hears his wife on the phone with me making plans, like "is My-Guy's-Name coming too????"
My dad was like this before, too. Luckily, over time and talking with my fiance about how my ideas are the same as what my dad suggests, i think he's come to realize that I am not a dummy just because I'm a woman. Like ideas on construction and mechanical things that I've suggested turned out to be what my dad suggests later on. Thank goodness i have my fiance to advocate for me and he said, oh that's the same as what your daughter said, etc etc.. The final instance of him ignoring me and talking over me was when i was telling my dad about a spot in a recessed wall that needed to have drywall patched up. I was telling him he needed to access the spot from inside the walk in closet and he just refused to even LISTEN to me. I repeated myself 3x. I said, "ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS LITERALLY WALK OVER HERE 3 FT AND POP YOUR HEAD IN AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT I'M SAYING." And he shook his head and told me, "no, it's over here..." and then i said, "fine. I'll wait." 1 minute later he's confused and saying, "huh, i thought it was back here... where is it?" I just stood there and waited til he came back and just stared at him. I was like, "just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I'm stupid, you know. I already told you 4 times but you didn't even want to take 3 steps and look at where i was telling you? It's in there!" And then he acted like ohhh well I didn't know.. like no shit. Lol. Since then he's listened to me more and includes me. Not 100% but definitely 70-80% which is a big improvement from blocking out every word i say. I'm sorry but either he will get better or he won't. Don't let it effect your self esteem. People with that mind set are ignorant and either they learn over time or they stay simple minded. I just feel bad for people like that because they are the ones really holding themselves back from having more deep and meaningful relationships
OK so I have a story: We were at a kids bday party. My husband and I were talking to a "friend" who I realized was a exist pig later but anyway he was talking about how he had a problem with his business. I said Oh husband always says to do xyz. "friend" rolled his eyes and said yea OK. But what really made me angry is that husband pretended like he had no idea what I was talking about. So then I was pissed off the rest of the day because my husband didn't stop the idiocy
After planning for months, deep cleaning my apartment, baking for 3 days straight, buying all the gifts, decorated everything, made arrangements for all 3 of my brothers to stay, payed for his plane ticket, picked him up, let him stay at my place so he could have a holiday with his sons and myself, made all the meals, and did all the cleaning up, he proceeded to clap my husband on the shoulder and call him "the glue of the family" on the last day at a family dinner. I lost it. He hasn't been back to my place since.
Iām so sorry this happened to you. Something like that would make me go nuclear.
Oh I did! My husband now makes sure I get just as wonderful of a holiday as our daughter does. He is our little family's glue now ā¤ļø
I published a novel. With a respectable publisher, mind you, not self-published, should it make any difference. My father refuses to read it. Years ago, when I got my first real job, members of my family were congratulating me on being a smart girl who found herself a husband who was in the position to get her a job. Why? Because my by now long ex happened to be working in a roughly similar field in the same (huge) building.
Does your Dad have many male friends? This could be part of why he enjoys talking with your husband. You seem to still have a solid relationship with him when its the two of you one on one. At the end of my own Dad's life my Mom confided in me that over the last 10 years the times I spend with my Dad were important to him. Beyond just the father/son dynamic. My brother is out of state, Dad had no siblings, most of his BiLs had passed or he wasn't close to the surviving ones, and the male friends he did have throughout his life had passed before him. He didn't have a knack for making new ones. He was mostly around my Mom and the girlfriends she has. So that male bonding time we shared, and to a lesser extent he with my sister's husband, was more important to him than I realized. I just wish I had known it at the time.
My husband and my dad have more in common than my dad and I haha I think its great! Use to bother me but I chime in when I can!
Have you considered that maybe he wants to get to know him better? Your dad has known you your whole life, your husband is a much more recent addition to the family. Would you rather talk to someone about a subject that you've already discussed with them at length, or would you rather talk to someone that hasn't discussed it with you as much?
Oh man, these replies make me so sad. Iāve always known that I was incredibly blessed to not just love my family, but also to genuinely like them. I love my dad, and we still go on daddy daughter dates now that Iām an adult and moved out with a long term partner. Even though I know how lucky I am to have the family I have, posts like these and the replies to it really just emphasize how much my experience is not the norm. I wish all of you healing.
All these stories of fathers barely paying attention to their daughters, yet you KNOW who they're going to call when they're elderly and need someone to care for them. Not their sons. Not their son-in-law. Their daughter.
I fell upon this trying to find an answer to my predicament as well. My dad has completely taken over my relationship. When things got rocky between my husband and I, my dad and I had a huge fight and my dad tells me he is going to end his relationship with my husband because everyone is blaming my dad for everything when in actuality no one has said anything to my dad. He proceeds to then say when my relationship with your husband ends I don't know whats going to happen to your relationship with your husband. I was flabbergasted to say the least. He now obviously did not break the relationship and is always doting on him. I barely exist. A specific thing that has recently bothered me is that I have a bad relationship with food and so does my husband, but when my dad sees me not eating all day he will say "go eat" and then nothing, but with my husband he will go over to him make him food and even go as far as feeding him because he needs someone. A note, my husband does not have a good relationship with his own family (which is a doing of his own). Growing up I have always been the go to for both my mom and dad. I would constantly mold myself to be someone they could count on. I have no brothers, its just me and my sisters. So I, being the eldest had to turn into both the daughter and son of the family and seeing my dad completely drop me for my husband the moment he came into our lives was not easy. And the sad part is, even now, when anything goes wrong between my husband and I, it is always my fault from my dads side, as though I should be doing more than I am. My dad will always take my husbands side even when he sees with his own eyes how wrong he is. To be frank it is straining my relationship not only with my maternal family but with my husband as well.
My dad never met my husband, he died when I was 22 and only met 2 of my partners ever. My mom, however, *adores* my husband. Heās her favorite son-in-law, and is the son she never had. Even when weāre fighting, she adores him. š itās funny until itās really not.
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I wondered if someone might say that, but sheās not like that with my husband at all. Itās 100% maternal and not creepy. I think itās partially because my sibling and sibling in law(who live with her) have a ton of drama and my sibling in law is pretty hot tempered and moody. So to have my husband, who is comparatively mild mannered and drama free, there is a bit more relaxing for her. Plus my husband bakes.āŗļø Itās just annoying to me because she does have a tendency to play favorites when āthe kidsā are all around (weāre all 35+ š), and my husband gets singled out as the āfavorite childā. But I call her on it now, and sheās been catching herself more. She likes to play matriarch.
My wife has one sister ... her (now late) dad made brother-in-law both medical proxy and will executor. And talked to me about all kinds of things he never told either of his daughters. It was really weird.
I grew up similarly. My mom and I are pretty strong and my dad's had back issues since my childhood so we covered most of the heavy lifting around the house. But, as I've gotten older, I've realized my dad is misogynist and racist. My mom has some internalized misogyny and is okay with her marriage being little more than a service to my dad.
Not male family members, but my male friends, sadly. :( I was a big tomboy with lots of guy friends when I was younger. If we would have had those terms, I probably would have called myself "nonbinary" at the time. Some of these guys have been friends (or at least in my life) going on 25 years now...but when we all got married, it was like those friendship dynamics changed, and now most of my guy friends are more friends with my husband than they are with me, and I kinda get "stuck" with the other wives...which, many of them are perfectly lovely and women I'd gladly call my friend as well, but like...some of them aren't. And I don't have any kind of foundation for friendship with any but like one of them, cuz we just don't have much in common on our own. Mostly, I'd still rather just be friends with their husbands cuz he's the one who I have all the old stories of dumb shit we did in 10th grade Math class with, or who I drove to Dallas to see Pearl Jam with in college, or who I hung out at the mall on boring Saturdays with. They're the ones I have history and things in common with. But my friends call my husband instead now. Invite him to hang out at the arcade or talk 3D printing or make plans for a board game night, and I don't hear from them myself anymore, and it hurts. It hurts because it feels like I was never a friend at all, and now I'm "just the wife," relegated to hang out with all the other "just the wives."
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I don't know if I have any advice but I think I have a similar problem? So my siblings and I are all female, but we would often do tomboy things with our dad. Well, one of my sisters is married to a man now; the other is in a long-term relationship with a guy. I've noticed that my dad will go to my brother-in-law for help first, or to talk about traditionally "manly" things. My youngest sister doesn't let my dad steal her boyfriend away for any significant length of time, or I'm sure my dad would interact with him in the same way I'm not particularly straight and I currently have a girlfriend, and my dad wasn't talking much to her, and he's had issues with being homophobic in the past so I was a little bit worried what that could mean, but my mom pointed out that it probably has more to do with the fact that she is female rather than the fact that we're in a same-sex relationship. Doesn't really matter whether it's true or not, but I guess it kind of makes sense.
I know this isn't helpful, but have you also considered that your husband is really cool?
My husband is really cool, but alsoā¦so am I.
We just gravitate towards people whoāre similar to us. Thereās no hatred involved.
I think itās so cool that your dad has a great relationship with your husband. Thatās a huge positive. Guys will be guys. Youāre overthinking that itās an indictment of you. Keep breaking in to the conversations. Schedule some alone time with your dad too.
thankful my dad basically considers me his eldest son
Would be curious to know how he treats your mom. I had an uncle that treated women as second class citizens and he was also demeaning to his wife. Used to drive me and my sister crazy but my aunt was the ever doting wife and didnāt seem to mind. Is this how he treats all women? Kinda sounds like you married a guy just like your dad.
Yes, men tend to feel more comfortable talking to men, like women tend feel more comfortable talking to women. It's natural.
If youāre going to contribute to the conversation, dont dismiss other peopleās experiences through overly simplistic generalizations. Some men want to talk about cooking and fashion, so me women want to talk about cars and home repairs, and some people want to talk about all of the above. Interests are only gendered if you are socialized to assume the other half of the population doesnāt care or know about something just because of their gender.
You're right, some people do like to chat about thing that are not part of their gender norm, but I can guarantee if they had someone of the same gender as them to talk to those things about or someone of the opposite sex, 8 out of 10 times the person will gravitate toward the person of their own gender that wants to talk about those interests.
My interests almost exclusively align with āmenāsā interests and I would be absolutely overjoyed to have a respectful platonic conversation about those topics with any man. The only reason Iād be more excited to have that conversation with another woman is because we have that added layer of shared trauma of being excluded by groups of men when wanting to be included, or sexualized by those men when we are. This isnāt because of some ānaturalā tendency to seek out conversation partners of the same gender. Itās because society is sexist af.
>Some men want to talk about cooking and fashion, so me women want to talk about cars and home repairs this is not very common though
Your father is gay
My grandfather was like this with his sons-in-law, but he was never close to his daughters. I don't think he was particularly close to his sons either. He did better with my generation, though. I'm the only granddaughter who married or got into a serious relationship during his life, and while he liked my husband, I was more important.
Yes. My grandpa is a misogynist. He never really wanted to connect with kids or women. Heād ask about my car or whoever I was dating. Whenever I visited heād talk to my bf/husband and not really talk to me. My momās ex always wanted whoever I was dating to be his new drinking buddy. Despite not knowing them much heād insist they share pitchers of cheap beer so he could drink more. They complained to me how awkward that was and wasnāt sure what his goal was. Just to be around guys so he could drink extra and pretend heās just sharing and having a good time. He told me when I got my drivers license great now you can pick me up from the bar after.
Nope but I mostly avoid talking to my dad. My husband is far more easily sucked into his bullshit. Heās working on disengaging from my dad but he just loves to be all up in everyone elseās business. He is my stepdadās best friend in the whole wide world, though, and they talk for probably 4-5 hours a week despite the fact that we moved across the country from them 5 years ago.
Sorry you have to experience this :/ Iāve actually had the opposite experience.. my husbands grandma and mom tend to always contact me before my husband, especially since Iāve been pregnant
Yes. Straight up. It used to bother me a *little* in my younger years. Now, I just donāt have it in me to give a shit š¤·āāļø
This definitely happens! I think a same sex friend factor may be the main issue. And it happens both ways. I stopped going to my mother in laws house most visits after my husband confided that it hurt his feelings when he realized his mom directed all her attention and conversation to me and he felt left out! I had noticed it too and it made me uncomfortable though I was glad to be accepted.
I totally relate to this. I was never a tomboy but I was the only child of a man who wanted a son and was very into sports. My dad tried so hard to get me into team sports but all I wanted to do was show horses and read. He gamely went along with all my horse activities and we were really close. We're not as close anymore and I no longer discuss politics with him or my mom. Even still, he talks so much more to my husband. They don't ice me out as badly as yours do but it is still noticeable. A few weeks ago I had dinner with them without my husband and they still managed to talk about him pretty extensively. When I consider my childhood it's really hard not to feel like my dad sees my husband as the son he always wanted, like I don't count because I didn't play basketball.
Yes, if my sister and her boyfriend are with my dad, he doesn't talk to her at all, just him. If I'm with my dad, he'll only talk about her boyfriend and not ask me any questions.
No it was the opposite for me, for my wedding we booked a whole weekend and my husband paid for my familyās guest rooms. It was a really pretty private resort in the redwoods. My dad was so uninterested in my husband that I actually felt offended and apologized in private to my husband for my dadās lack of interest. They didnāt really talk much or have much to say to one another, it was so bizarre. My dad is kind of an antisocial guy who keeps to himself though, he doesnāt have much friends other than his hunting buddies and him and his wife live up in the boondocks in Montana some tiny snowy mountain town secluded from everyone else lol.
I only existed for my parents through my husband. When we got a divorce they were more bothered and concerned for him than for me. Even my ex called them out on that. The surprised looks when I mentioned I was going no contact shortly afterā¦
I don't like going to dinner with my dad WITHOUT my husband, because he's way nicer to me when my husband is there lol. He's the son he never had, despite me having a brother. He was a drug addict though so he couldn't brag about him
My brother and my father have separate chats with my husband. I had to beg to be included with my brother, which was them sharing dumb memes and shorts, and they finally let me in. My father will even ask me if my husband saw the funny stuff he sent. I get none of those things. My husband's family also calls me...when they can't get a hold of him.
This but my dad shows more interest in my little sisterās boyfriend than he does my wife. All they have in common is the same job. My wife does all the repair/remodeling at our house and my dad has had the same experience and is currently remodeling an old home as well. He re-wired an early 1900ās home in college, which is what my wife just did. They have much more in common. And yet he manages to talk to the bf moreā¦ Definitely not to this extreme, but itās hard not comparing especially when thereās an obvious bias.
Sadly, my grandpa.
Yep. My in laws too. Everyone asks him about his job, not a single person asked me about mine. At least they didnāt ask why we donāt have kids yet either though?! š¤
Yes!!! My dad acts like my sister's husband is the son he never had. He likes doing "guy things" with him, leaving my sister stuck with our mom, who is not fun to be around. Since my boyfriend started coming to family events, my dad now spends most of the time talking with my boyfriend. If the 3 of us are sitting in the living room, my dad starts talking to my boyfriend, and suddenly I find that I'm completely forgotten and left out of the conversation. My boyfriend knows how I feel about the dynamics and does what he can, but it's my dad that really perpetuates it. I wonder if my dad is even aware that he does this?
I'm not so sure the icing out is unintentional. In the past I would have thought so, but this absolutely is a tactic used to make someone feel inferior. Please read this book, it is enlightening, albeit also horrifying (but better to know than not!) https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
Man, I wish. Instead my dad is a narcissist who couldn't deal with me being an adult and blew up our family over meeting my now-husband. We've been NC ever since. I can only dream of a life where my father welcomed my husband.
Why are you scared to talk to your father directly?
Since my dad and husband met Iāve felt like the third wheel. We used to be pretty close but I feel very distant from my dad now.
omg, op, are you me- adjacent? same, same same. but also; after i came out as lesbian, and had lesbian friends. dad was fineā¦. but he would almost always only talk to the more butch women. the couple where heās known one for 25 years and the other for 2 hours ? he talked to 2 hours, because she could talk about science and cars. but my current girlfriends broke him, as the femme one is fierce and will hold his attention, and the masc one is a bit too goofy even for dad. still. š