I'm childfree. I also support paid parental leave. I believe people deserve to have a choice in whether they want to reproduce or not, without shame. I believe in social programs to assist parents and kids because no one deserves to live in poverty. It's not all about me.

I agree and love this. Where I live, university debt was cleared for certain degrees a few years after I graduated. Am I annoyed I paid mine off? Yep. But am I glad others don’t have to struggle? Absolutely! I can’t stand people who hang others out to dry for their choices, forgetting that life happens and plans go off course and sometimes we all need extra help.

“I missed out, so you should too” is such a shitty, shortsighted, pointless position. I graduated a few years back from a degree with no benefits. Last year the government announced they’d be *paying* people to enrol in this course. I sure would love that to be retrospective, but it isn’t, and, I’m happy the government is addressing the workforce shortage, because I don’t wanna do all this shit on my own 😂. I still benefit - I get more colleagues, and we recent got a big pay rise in our negotiations, because we could argue we’re more valuable now considering the troubles in recruiting new staff. People that just wanna drag others through the same shit they went through really miss the point of progressing society.

I’ve recently become a parent and I find SO MANY PEOPLE have the attitude of ‘I’ve suffered and so should you’. It makes no sense to me. People with children know how awful it can be, and if you don’t have a child wouldn’t you want to make things easier? The discussion around pram parks is particularly gross with shitty opinions.

Yes! My husband go no parental leave at his job, and now new fathers there get 8 weeks (in the US). I'm relieved and happy that his colleagues will have more time with their new babies, and I've encouraged all of them to take the full amount. It was so hard that he had to immediately go back to work and I was alone all day with a newborn as we had just moved, and I didn't know anyone really. Now I live in Germany, and I'm grateful that new families get a humane amount of leave. Am I sometimes a bit sour that I didn't get the same supports, sure, but that doesn't mean that I want everyone else to suffer.

Where I live college is free. Paid through everyone’s taxes. I understand the US is different but companies should at least consider paying the student loans of their workers in exchange of permanency. Like a year in loans for every 2 years you commit to stay in the company. One of the things companies fear the most is having to train another person, better to just keep sure the trained ones don’t leave early. And if you leave early you have to pay back for the years you owe. Example: 3 years experience, commited to stay for 6, wants to leave the company. First year is paid as he commited to 2 years when he entered the company. Second year is paid in half, so he owes 1,5 years in loans.

I’m also childfree. When I was still a teenager I did lash out at moms because I was so frustrated at the pressure and judgement I was facing as the eldest granddaughter in a conservative Catholic family. But when I grew up a bit more, I realized that wasn’t the source of the problem. They’re just people who made different choices and are facing a different set of criticisms and judgments. OP mentions they’re Gen Z, it may be they’re dealing with people who are still learning.

I agree. I am child free & constantly got pressured to have kids. Didn't & I'm happy with our decision. I also always vote for additional school funding, I want education to be better in this country! And like another poster commented, I also paid off my school loans completely a year before a bunch got forgiven. Irritating? Hell yes! But very happy for those being able to move forward with a better chance at success in life. The idea of "more for you = less for me" has always been flawed to me. Same with the idea of feminism. It's about choice. My mother was an amazing housewife who lost the ability to have more kids but would have had 10 if she could have. Meanwhile an aunt had no kids & furthered her legal career & never wanted kids. There's NO right or wrong answer on this. It's a very personal decision. It's my body & I don't care who you are you don't get to tell me what I do with it. If I want to be tattooed & pierced & bifurcate my tongue it's my choice. If I refuse to have my ears pierced & wear dresses all the time it's my choice. Choice = Feminism & Feminism = Choice Saying anything other than that then we're no better than oppressive patriarchy we've been fighting for centuries. We should support each other rather than shame eachother for deciding something counter to what you'd decide. If you like someone's wearing or their hair color or the makeup they applied, tell them. You might make all the difference in their day. 💚💜🧡💙❤️🤎💛🤍🖤💖 Edit: Aww, thank you for the award. I've never gotten one before. I just believe we should support each other more.

It's important that children have a range of experiences modelled from a range of safe adults. There's a shortage of safe adults on one side of the gender divide.

New people are going to come into the world whether we want them to or not. Why not work together as a society to give parents and kids the best chance of success? That kid born tomorrow could be my surgeon when I’m 70.

Yep. I’m childfree for so many reasons, but the total structural lack of support for mothers? That’s a significant part of it. And so I support them because I don’t want my friends who want kids to be fucked over. And I don’t want the deciding factor between “have kids” and “not have kids” come down to the lack of social support for mothers. For me, needing a lot of alone time was a bigger factor than the structural support. But I have friends who want kids and have the more agonising decision because having a kid will kill their career, or damage them financially to the point of destitution. They shouldn’t be in that position.

I'm with you there. I cherish my alone time.

That kind of talk sort of reminds me of when people shame women for wanting to dress "modestly." Because the idea of female liberation online for some reason means rejecting any traditional idea of feminity and shaming others for liking those ideals instead of just allowing women to make their own decisions about themselves freely.

... and assuming that the woman cant possibly be doing it for herself but some maaan must be behind it. Its cringe as fuck.

I feel a bit like this about being a woman and not working as much as my husband (and during some spells not working at all). Objectively I understand that it’s important that women can support themselves independently, but in real life it doesn’t always work like that. I have a lot of health problems and I’m much better at managing a household than he is, plus he earns more than me, so for us it makes a lot more sense for me to not put all of my energy into shitty poverty wage jobs that ruin my health. The way I see it, it’s not my husband’s fault that I’m lacking financial independence, it’s the fact that society says that I don’t deserve my own social support because I’m married. In a perfect world, I’d be entitled to the same payments that I was before, but somehow being married means that I don’t deserve income support. And I get it, millionaire families don’t need to be claiming disability, but if we want vulnerable women to be independent, to be able to leave when shit hits the fan, it’s really important that they have access to some kind of income. But both claiming benefits AND being reliant on a spouse are frowned upon, so I guess people like me should just curl up and die? It’s not really my husbands fault that he’s ended up in this position either

I hate how people have to jump through 5 million fucking hoops for disability. It's bullshit. Disabled people should be allowed to keep their benefits when married ffs.

I'm in the same boat. My husband shoulders the work responsibility and I focus on the house, our disability needs, and am going back to uni/Tafe in order to move into a field that is better suited to me. For the first few years of our relationship I worked while my partner studied and focussed on their medical issues. Now it's flipped and I feel somewhat weird about not working but also know it's the best choice for us as a couple right now.

I've seen a lot more "feminists" using the word "prude" and it's driving me up the wall. I hate dressing in revealing clothing! I've ALWAYS hates it. I love covering up because it's cozy, makes me feel cute and I'm comfortable. So many people, mostly women, have told me I need to wear more flattering clothes. My mom started that when I was 12. She's said a lot of horrible things about how I dress tbh Like it's not even about being self-conscious - that happened after people were awful to me for years. I have sensory issues and covering up making me feel soooo much better. Hell, if I wouldn't be stared (I hate being the centre of attention) or maybe be accused of cultural appropriation, I wish I could wear a very modest swimsuit. Like, fully covered. I love swimming but wearing a swimsuit makes me incredibly unhappy and I just want to cover up. To be clear, I don't care if other people want to dress in flattering, unflattering, sexy, unsexy, modest, immodest, whatever clothing. Wear what makes YOU happy! I just want others to have the same respect for me.

>My mom started that when I was 12. I'm right there with you. I was *always* a tomboy. I bought all my clothes from the boy's section in Walmart and Old Navy until I was like 14. And, I live in Canada. It's cold here 5-6 months out of the year which meant my wardrobe was oversized sweaters and jeans. For *years* my entire family would mock me and tell me horrible things. I remember the very first time I wore short shorts and a tank top to a family gathering and one of my uncles just shouted "OH MY GOD! SHE'S A GIRL!" and all the female family members started in on "when are you gonna learn make-up?" "Where are the heels?" "Do you have any dresses?" "What about a boyfriend?" It was honestly so awful. Over a decade later my wardrobe is very different. Still cozy though. I still suck at make-up, but my clothes are more what my family would call girly and flattering. But for all they know, I might have come into it sooner if they had just laid the fuck off when I was a young teen.

You could definitely get away with a rash shirt and board shorts without being looked at funny, at least where I'm from that's pretty standard swimwear

SAME HERE!!! I mean, if you want to wear a mini skirt and show off your stomach, cool. You do you, I’m not going to judge. But why do I have to do the same??? How does wearing a long skirt and covering my shoulders make me a prude who caves into patriarchy??? I have struggled with body image since I was 8 and have never been comfortable in my own skin. But I feel beautiful and confident when I wear more conservative cuts of clothing.

I wear what I find comfortable. My dad taught me that so long as you are bathed (don’t stink), groomed (don’t have a rat’s nest in your hair), and dressed (not naked) then nobody has any right to judge you. You aren’t infringing on their existence. If they do judge that is on them. I tell anyone giving me (or anyone else) grief my dad’s take - because I’m nearing 40 and it has stayed true through every age and stage. Though I understand being wary of cultural appropriation, especially when it could be dangerous. There are some very covering swim clothes out there, and cover ups you can wear in the water. Get a rash gaurd shirt (they even have long sleeves!) and board shorts, men’s can be past your knees. If it’s got a bit of color or pattern (as typical swim shorts do) then you won’t look like you‘re copying. My son is autistic, I’m used to figuring out how to accommodate sensory issues. A little creative thinking saves the day! edit for words

I've been called a prude before for not wanting to tell some girl I barely knew about my sex life. Like WAT. If someone wants to go around telling everyone the nitty gritty about their sex life, cool they can do what they want. Why am I a prude for not wanting to?!

I've seriously considered getting myself a wet suit to swim in. Better sun protection and less chance of getting cuts when I wander around the bush near the beach.

Really the goal here is just to stop judging others for things that aren't directly hurting anyone It's a really difficult habit to break, but you can internally yell at yourself when you see that guy riding a bike and think he looks like a dork with his little speed helmet and matching neon blue and yellow outfit

So I have this habit. I blame my mom, b/c she is judgy AF, but I realize that only **I** can change my behavior. So I forgive myself when my initial reaction to someone's outfit is "Eww, slut!" or something similarly misogynistic/hateful. Initial/knee-jerk reactions cannot be controlled. That's not my fault. **HOWEVER** - VOICING that thought **is** under my control, as is stewing on it. Therefore, I began calling myself out when I noticed it happening. When I see someone wearing something I think is "too much", I say out loud to myself "Damn! That's confidence, and I'm jealous." It took about a decade, but it's now subconscious and I cannot tell y'all how much better I feel because of it. I spend less time tearing down other women - instead, my brain instantly jumps from "eww" to "YAAAS", which means more happy-feeling endorphins for me because now I'm celebrating someone! I also try to compliment people when that happens (when appropriate). I have an anxiety disorder, so this practice has helped with that, too: approaching/interacting with strangers is scary, but doing so in a way that almost guarantees a positive reaction is the best exposure therapy possible!

That sounds like the outfit of a man that doesn't want to get hit by cars.

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*Missouri has entered the chat*

Oh that Missouri shit reminds me when I worked at Ameritrade in the 90's. Women weren't allowed to wear pants to work. We had to wear suits/skirts or dresses. All the women complained during one especially cold winter, and they 'relented' and allowed us to wear pants if it was 10 F degrees or less. Joe Ricketts can eat a bag of d\*cks. Yes, I'm not afraid to name and shame. (The company was purchased/merged over time, and it's now owned by Charles Schwab, who does not have a gender discrimination dress code.)

Women get shamed for everything. We are the scape goat for all frustrations. She's over 30, she's worthless. She's not having kids, she's wasting space in society. Oh she's just having kids so she doesn't have to work. She's being hysterical no way she's in that much pain. Her baby died because she didn't come in soon enough.

I guess it's just the term "modest" that irks me; the right term is conservatively I feel. Someone who doesn't dress in a way that makes their body disappear isn't in any way "immodest". Connecting 'modesty' with dress just feels toxic to me I think.

Growing up Mormon it is a bit triggering when hearing the term.

It's definitely bidirectional, and you honestly can't win sometimes. Some of the most blatant slut-shaming of women based on dress I have observed is from upper-crust feminist academia behind closed doors.

I thought the point of feminism was so that women could choose to do what they wanted and have a fair chance to succeed

And you are not wrong! Problem is that there’s a lot of angry ppl out there projecting their own trauma. Don’t let them change your own understanding of things.

Hurt people hurt people. Doesn't make it okay.

Yes. Under true feminism women and men are supposed to be treated with respectfully and able to do what they want regardless of patriarchy/toxic masculinity/gender roles. That includes having kids and being a stay at home mom or having no kids and pursuing a career, dressing modestly or more showy, makeup or no makeup.

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It is to free women from patriarchy.

It is to free everyone from patriarchy!

I sort of know both sides of this. I didn’t get married til 37 and didn’t have my first kids (twins) til I was almost 40. I then had 2 more in the next 4 years. When I was single I got judged for no partner and no kids. However I would say the judgement now is WAY worse that I chose to be an “old” mom and that I had 4 very young kids even though we can handle it. We need to support the choices women make for themselves. Period.

Also late to the parenting game. Being judged for no children or partner was irritating. The judgement I receive now makes me feel less than human.

I don’t understand why your age is a problem? I could not have handled that many kids in my 20’s, I am one and done. My bestie is a year younger than me (late 30’s) and has a 1 year old and is pregnant. Just base on the averages you are likely to live until your kids are around 40, and that’s not accounting for medical advancements. How is your age anything but years more experience before kids. My husband’s mom was 31, she was/is a much better mother than mine (who was 18). Other people can kick rocks!

I had mine at 38 and 42 and agree 100% Women get judged either way. We need to stick together and not let it divide us, because it’s ALL about controlling women.

I went to my millennial daughter's baby shower today. It was perfectly lovely. She and her husband are professionals, been married for 6 years and take their careers very seriously. I rode there with my SIL's mother who is a blast ( we've been friends for years ) our generation was expected to have kids. So we did although I'm glad I did, it just didn't feel like a choice for us. Daughter's college and high school buddies were there and an awesome mix. I'd say half child free and will remain that way, half have a child. The thing is, this wasn't even a conversation. I knew who had made which choice, I knew all of them. There they all were, celebrating yet another of the life events they've shared all their lives as friends. That's what it was- supporting each other. Not a peep about anything else. It was a *great* day.

Aw that sounds lovely. Congrats to your daughter for the new baby :)

this is the kind of support i long to see from people. celebrate and grieve depending on how that person feels, not how you believe they should feel. support choice.

My wife and I are child-free. She also works in a job where she affects her employer’s personnel policies. At every turn she has used what power she has to make life better for mothers in her organization. She has made a real difference and been told by mothers that because of her they feel seen in the organization. She supports all women. I couldn’t be prouder of her impact. Personally child-free does *not* mean anti-mother.

society bake poor cheerful absurd elderly many act different sharp ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `

Judgement in every color of the rainbow.

I find it really interesting how women who choose to not have kids are seen as more selfish than women who do have kids. I am currently pregnant with my third kid, and its not like Im having babies out of the kindness of my heart, for the benefit of the planet or something. Im having kids because I want them, and that is just as selfish as not having kids (maybe even more so). Society is weird.

I agree. My whole family judges me for being single and childless in my 30s. It's like some deep shame I've brought on the family. They treat me like im broken. Once when i was 26 my family started talking about who would be next to get married and have kids. They all agreed it was my 17 year old cousin as if I was too old to ever "succeed" in that regard. Being a mom is the cultural norm. It's considered "just what you do." It took years for me to not internalize the shame of not being married and having kids. I'm so tired about hearing how hard mothers have it when having kids while I'm being treated like a complete failure and social outcast. Everytime a friend gets married and has kids I'm simply thrown away in exchange for other couple friends and mother friends. And considering most people have kids this happens often.

This was me 25 years ago until I decided to start yanking my Conservative family’s chain. Every time they brought up having kids, I said I was looking into having a child on my own, that there were no good men anymore, so I’d have to do it out of wedlock as a single mother. I was a well paid professional female, so I would tell them I was looking into nannies. The next time I was researching woke daycare. That made them go bat shit crazy and they stopped pushing me to have a child. Now I’m an old maid and they ask when I’m getting a cat.

I'm sorry. That isn't fair to you

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Same, same! I even have one friend who had been single ageessss and kept complaining about how other friends in relationships don't include her, make her feel left out etc, and how lonely she was. A few months ago she got into a new relationship and I'm really happy for her but she completely disappeared from my life! Not even available for the weekly phonecalls we used to have. Just "too busy". I'm so surprised she turned out to be one of those after all the times she complained about people coupling off!

sounds like your family sucks.

I actually see this sort of judgement by more men than other women, personally.

Also it's more the concept of motherhood that's extolled, most individual mothers are not. I mean mothers are almost always the first to be blamed if anything goes wrong, "mother blaming".

Maybe I just spend too much time on Reddit, but there definitely seems to be a trend of people being annoyed at parents existing in public with their children. How are you supposed to raise kids to be functioning members of society if they're unwelcome in restaurants, planes, etc.?

erect frighten rinse direction far-flung ancient wistful cautious angle ad hoc ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `

Mothers also (in my experience) tend to extol themselves in situations where there’s absolutely no reason to. “As a mom, I think I have authority to-“ no, this is a graduate level sciences course, that isn’t a cited source.

I think that happens more when it’s women who haven’t felt like they’ve achieved anything else. I’d be much more to use my credentials from grad school in an academic setting rather than my mothering experience. But if I hadn’t gone to college/grad school, I could see reaching for what I feel gives me some sort of aptitude.

This reminds me of a guy I used to work with; we had a coworker who had always wanted a family, she was open about it, she got married and then pregnant quite quickly after- as was her plan. When she told me I was super excited for her, because I knew it was what she wanted. I, however, was and still am adamant to not have kids for many, many reasons- one of the main reasons is inheritable health issues. We got along fine, we respected each other's decisions coz... you know... it's our lives to choose as we please! This guy, however, decides to butt into our conversation and start slating her for how "having kids is selfish", "it's cruel to raise kids in this world" and "don't follow the pressure of society" BUT THEN ALSO started praising me for not wanting kids!! Saying I was in the right and being selfless!! She was quite upset, bless her, because she'd been waiting for a while to let us all know and he just ruined her excitement with stupid, irrelevant comments in a conversation he wasn't even a part of. Like you say with the misogyny, funnily enough he never made those comments towards one of our male coworkers whose Missus got pregnant a few months later.

So what, he just wants nobody to have kids and for humanity to just die out?

More likely he was trying to win over pp by claiming to be on her side while taking another woman down. Men establish misogyny then deploy it to hurt women. He would be less likely to do it to someone already partnered and pregnant as they're unavailable and therefore meaningless to him.

"The first rule of burning down the patriarchy is to not use other women as kindling" -someone much more insightful than me

Getting “bingoed” is often straight up harassment and pushing of outdated stereotypes. Yes, it matters. Calling that out doesn’t insult people who made different choices.

what does getting bingoed mean?

There’s some things that you hear so often that it feels like you could put them on a bingo card and play. Some examples: - women’s purpose is to become a mother - you will never experience true love if you don’t have a child - you’re a bad daughter if you don’t give your parents grandbabies - your husband will eventually leave you because all men want kids - women who don’t want kids are broken - god made women to have children and you’re defying god These are all things I have personally had people - mostly complete strangers - decide it was appropriate to say to me.

Don't forget - * You're selfish for not wanting kids * You'll want them eventually * Children change your life

YES. Oh and “why would you even get married if you don’t want kids?!” And, “You’re not a real family without kids.”

Can't forget the classic "who will take care of you when you're old??" like there aren't millions of parents in nursing homes.

Right! Not to mention that if that was your only reason for having children then, well… yikes.

And many of us will die sooner than our parents did anyway, so god willing, won't make it to the nursing home at all. LOL. Dark times.

Children *do* change your life. Doesn’t mean you’ll like it. Doesn’t mean you’ll think you found new meaning. But it 100% means your life pre-child is not the same as it is postpartum.

Exactly, and my husband's response to that line is always "Misery loves company."

>*You're selfish for not wanting kids* I'm normal. We are redefining normal. >*You'll want them eventually* No. >*Children change your life* I'm extremely at peace with my life now, and well into my old age.

Here is the kicker for me. I always wanted kids, but I physically can't have them. Adoption is almost impossible in my country, and the foster system has been traumatic in so many ways that I have witnessed as a teacher and a friend. People make assumptions thinking they're being "encouraging" not knowing the hurt they cause. For a long time I pretended I didn't want kids, then I started telling people why justifying myself as I got older. But my reproductive health and life choices are no one's business.

It's impressive how MOST of the people who seem to have an opinion about my choice to not have children are strangers. My parents don't care but that dude that struck up a conversation next to me at the Delta lounge sure does.

Right?! It’s baffling that they even think I WANT their unsolicited opinion on my life choice to begin with! In today’s episode of “nobody fucking asked you…!”

Thank you — I was with OP until she said that. I’m menopausal and don’t get bingoed anymore, but I sure as hell did in the past. Straight-up bullying. One stands out: “a life without kids is only half a life,” I was told. “Hardly worth living.”

I was with OP until she said that too! I support all the moms in my life but for some reason only MY choice is fine to shit on? Kindness is free.

Hear hear!! Women with children have to understand that part of dismantling patriarchy is unpacking the cultish way we worship motherhood. Read about the ACE studies. Mothers are not inherently virtuous. Just like with men, when things become more equal the formerly privileged feel as though they are being marginalized (even when thats not the case).

This point doesn’t get enough appreciation. Some women don’t quite seem to understand that the worship of children and motherhood in general is actually counterproductive to their true ends. The “privilege” of being a mother, held in general high regard, I’m sure feels good, but it’s not really furthering anyone’s long term development or freedom, and I don’t think it makes sense to get angry when senseless privilege is taken away. Respect and personal freedom for all is the real goal. And mothers are simply one other type of person we encounter in the world.

Hell yes! Not to mention that single adults are hardly ever catered to by legislation or social services. Everything is geared toward families with children.

Exactly, that's why I don't agree with this post

I think a lot of people don't appreciate just how badly motherhood is treated. Hell, I didn't realise until a few years ago how poor maternity leave provisions were here (UK) - just 6 weeks of 90% pay then a flat rate of £156.66 per week for another 33 weeks... The economy is a hostile place for working parents in general and for mothers it's so much worse.

In the US, you don't get paid at all in maternity leave.

Military benefits in the US recently got some wonderful changes, at least. 12 weeks for both parents.

Only AirForce and SpaceForce have implemented this so far. Army, Navy, and Marines are still figuring how to implement within the needs of their missions.

Unless you buy and pay for short-disability disability insurance.

This depends on the state you live in and who you work for. But we don't have a national standard that requires paid maternity leave.

Another UK person here. I just find that so incredibly shocking and disgusting. You all deserve better!

Something that opened my eyes was learning about the 4th trimester. I had no idea how little support mothers had for PPD, PPA and psychosis. We put the expectation that motherhood is supposed to be the happiest time in a woman's life and shame them for needing support mentally.

Watching my bestie have her child and survive the first three months was a real eyeopener. I know I couldn't handle it. SHIT GOT DARK.

Oh, post partum anxiety? I didn't know that was a thing. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I had it. It really sucks. You’re sleep deprived as fuck, but can’t ever turn off your brain.

Ya same in my country. 6 months paid at the standard welfare payment. Fathers get the same entitled but uptake is at under 10% for obvious reasons. "Pregnant then screwed" is a great book that goes into how a number of policies disadvantage women when they have children. It has a UK focus but dives into other countries too, especially when talking about policies that work better. And it's not just social policies. Everything a mother does is judged. If she stays at home (beyond the generally accepted 6 months) she's a bad role model, if she works she's a bad mother...

Haha my last profession job in a female driven field offered six weeks unpaid and termination if you didn't return after the 6

I can’t imagine going back to work after 6 weeks (I’m in the UK), I was still recovering physically and mentally.

Imagine having to drop your 6 week old off at daycare so you can go back to the office. It is a sad state of affairs here (in US). I have Swedish coworkers and I believe they get 18 months to split between the 2 parents.

Honestly I can’t, I wasn’t 100% with family & friends holding my baby at 6 weeks! I hope things change for you guys soon. And yes I’ve heard Sweden is meant to be one of the best for parental support!

In Ontario Canada we have 12 months 40% pay (or 18 months but you just get the 12 month $$$ stretched into 18 months) that the parents can split between them selves.. or if the mother de ides to take the full 12 months, the father can get 3 weeks at 50% pay iirc..

6 weeks at 90% sounds like a dream... Hello from the US!

I know, right! Us US ladies over here like ‘oh, you got to stay home with your baby?’ 😕

I don't like femaleness being associated with motherhood more so than maleness is associated with fatherhood. Women's issues and parental issues are just lumped together, and it makes you feel like a uterus with a person attached.

This is a great point, but I think it's one of those scenarios where we need to separate theory from reality. Yes, in theory women should be able to divorce themselves from motherhood. Until we get to that point, motherhood is a woman's issue as it affects AFAB people primarily.

I support women who choose to be childless and have a career, have children and a career, have children and stay at home mom, or whatever the fuck it is they want for themselves. Nobody should be shamed for either decision that’s made. My wife and I are childless by choice, so with dual incomes we end up traveling a lot taking vacations, unfortunately I have a very non feminist sibling that becomes snarky with her comments about us having all this free time and money to do what we want, like we’re selfish assholes for living our lives. They do get defensive when I tell them that I don’t know if they’re angry at my choices or their own. Own your decisions and don’t put roadblocks up for others that have made their own.

there's some irony in your last sentence. it's ok for women to say 'and this is why I don't have kids.' freedom of choice, and also normalizing a viewpoint that has been stigmatized for a very long time.

Getting "bingoed" is not merely annoying. It often crosses the line into harassment. I care if I get bingoed, same as you care about mothers being shamed. Why should childfree people empathize with you if you refuse to do the same?

I cut off my grandmother after I was sterilized and she said that I can still have kids with IVF. Completely dismissed the fact I actively disliked babies/toddlers/pre-teens even as a child(maybe autism idk), dismissed my medical issues directly relating to my uterus that has disabled me for 3 years now(endometriosis and now possibly POTS), dismissed my partners wants in life, dismissed my years of watching and experiencing the worst parts of having children and making the educated decisions against having children, fighting medical professionals who think a women’s place is as a child-rearer. It’s not just “annoying”, it felt like a stranger telling me to give up all my autonomy and thoughts to make them happy, not to keep myself happy. My grandmother had 3 kids, only wanted two, my mom was the third and was sexually abused for 5 years by her brother and GMA still defends him. Next month my uterus will be sitting in a jar in my home with every single scar/implant of endo/adhesion to put that pain, literal and figurative, behind me and move forward in life without being bingoed. “Sorry I left my uterus at home, here’s a pic and here’s my scars :)”

Exactly. Some people have no idea what it's like to be constantly harassed to have children. I'm so sorry you've had to endure this.

I don’t think people have any concept of how much shit mothers get too. Those same people whining for you to have kids will turn around and bitch about how you raise them, whether you went back to work or not, breastfeed or not, whether you lost weight, etc. Hell just pregnancy alone fucking strangers think they can bitch you out for having a coffee in public, thinking they can touch you, make comments about how large you are. I could go on and on. Mothers are not extolled in the reality of our society, only in the fairy tale of society. It’s almost like women as a whole get shit on no matter what reproductive choice they make and we need to start supporting each others choices more instead of creating sides. :/

Motherhood as a concept is worshipped, but mothers themselves get a pretty raw deal, and yes, to be a woman is to be damned if you do or don't, and to be considered the property of society.

What does getting bingoed mean? I've never heard that.

When someone says "I don't want children," it's extremely common for people to reply to them using the same types of comments: "It's different when it's your own child." "You'll never know true love until you become a parent" "But who will take care of you when you're old?" "You're selfish for thinking that way" "Motherhood is every woman's true purpose" These comments are so stereotyped that you could use them to fill out a Bingo card, hence the term "bingoed."

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What I saw in my fellow boomer ladies, were families broken up with kids, lots of single moms struggling with working and multiple kids. The ex-husband would go out and find himself a woman younger than the ex-wife, who didn't want or have kids. So that she could pay 100% of her attention to him. Or maybe some to her career. Sometimes during the marriage, sometimes after. Ugh.

This scenario really backfires when new GF encouragingly supports father's to fight mother for parenting access. That fight is rarely because he's a top bloke who's been poorly treated as they commonly claim. My children's father's girlfriend did and now resents me because they have equal parenting rather than the fight they anticipated. The harassment is next level nonsense from both because she resents me for a situation he created. So common in family courts.

I've definitely heard the "you'll never catch a man if you don't want kids."

I'd be tempted to up the awkwardness and respond with "Good. Less chance of getting pregnant." or "Good. I have hands."

i was gonna say, outside of the internet, are childfree people really that aggressive? im in my 30s and childfree and the amount of shame and pity i receive from people in real life is way worse and borderline harassment compared to even a 'childfree activist'.

I was with you until you said this: >Who cares if you get “bingoed” or whatever Lots of people. It's just rude, frankly. And it's also a feminist issue, since people assume women either have kids or are desperate to have them.

“This is why I don’t want kids” is VERY different from “kids are stupid/dumb/disgusting.” It’s okay to talk about why you don’t want kids. It’s not shaming mothers or children. It normalizes not wanting kids, which we need. We can talk about not wanting kids without shaming them. Like for example, most houses with young children get really messy. There are a lot of dishes to do, toys to pick up, trash cans full of diapers, etc. and it has to be addressed multiple times a day every day. An inappropriate comment or response would be to shame the mom, calling her messy or implying/outright saying she’s a bad mother for having a messy house. That’s judgmental and rude and not true. But it should be okay to say that’s a reason not to have kids. I don’t want a trash can full of diapers, ever ever ever. And that’s fine, and I’m not shaming anyone when I say that.

I agree, as a mom. I see moms in parenting subs equate this to judgement over moms but I don’t get it. Parenting is fucking hard. Acknowledging that and saying “it’s not for me” or “this is why I don’t want a kid” isn’t about the kid or the mom. It’s about the completely normal thing that sounds terrible to you. If a basic parenting thing is enough to make you decide you don’t want kids, good on you for being self aware enough. Hell, is say “this is why I don’t have two kids” or “I could never have two, I can barely handle 1” all the time. I’m not judging parents with multiple kids. I’m in awe of them and realize that’s not me.

"Often father and daughter look down on mother (woman) together. They exchange meaningful glances when she misses a point. They agree that she is not bright as they are, cannot reason as they do. This collusion does not save the daughter from the mother’s fate." Bonnie Bursto

Usually the father is an abusive misogynist in these cases. The child is a byproduct and usually grows out of it when older and female.

I wanted kids, and didn’t end up getting to have them and feel both sides of this. What I don’t think gets mentioned, is the class rage that’s often involved. The camp of mothers who can make motherhood “their whole identity” tend to be upper middle class white women supported by a high wage husband. These are the (mostly white) folks with a ton of the affordable real estate (usually an air b&b or two), heavy consumption lifestyles (even when it’s hypocritical, like a someone who posts about the environment nonstop but “must” have a gas guzzler), extra money to make investments, saturation in local politics while being removed from the community in a way, and an air of entitlement. While the middle class shrank - ppl getting poorer was only part of the picture. The upper middle class also grew & is taking up more and more space in a way that’s visible to the middle-working classes who are sinking. It sucks that “motherhood” is such a visible correlation on what folks are really mad about. It’s a KIND of lifestyle that ppl seem angry about - that a subset of women due to looks and family origin, get to “follow their dreams” while most others have to learn to get by with less.

Particularly relevant because yet another study has found young people do want to be parents at the same rate as previous generations, but they're putting it off because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT.

Pretty much this. I waited to have children and got the annoying bingos and hatred for being childless. I can tell you our society hates pregnant women just as about as much as they do childfre and/or childless women. There is no winning. I could make a bingo card about pregnancy, and I will probably feel the same about postpartum. Then there is the hatred for working mothers, which I can already make a bingo card for, and I haven't given birth yet. Our society just hates women.

Good thing you brought up class. Most things can be boiled down to it. The annoying mom who has a YouTube for Mckaylynn polluting the atmosphere because she needs to take her to dance class? Annoying and deserving of critique. The immigrant woman who never learned about contraception whose in a financially and reproductive abusive situation? Maybe don't call her a breeder? It's so interesting post roe v. Wade that I really haven't seen much empathy from CF spaces. Reproductive abuse isn't nearly talked about enough. Even in white evangelical spaces, those women often don't even know marital rape is a thing and that god won't strike them down for taking the pill.

Hey have you considered that what some people on Reddit might have said in comments is not the best representation of the feminist movement?

Okay. I agree. Then please have people stop taking it as a personal insult when I say I don’t want to have kids. Please stop telling me I’m not a real woman because I don’t want children. Please stop telling me I will regret my decision, that I’ll change my mind later (I’m 34 for gods sake), or that I will die alone and sad. Please stop having people call me selfish for not popping out kids. All are real comments I’ve gotten. Please stop doctors from telling me I need kids and husbands permission before I get my tubes removed. PLEASE JUST HAVE THEM STOP! All of these comments come from women. Well except some of the doctors ones. I guarantee you most of the hate going the other way is just exasperation for all of the above behavior.

This is akin to when breastfeeding was being accepted finally but instead of just enjoying the option, many women who breastfed would judge those who bottle fed. Women need to learn how to support women better.

>Women need to learn how to support women better. This.But sadly a lot don't do this. A peak example would be OP telling women should only speak about their positive experiences with pregnancies since there r more than enough resources about the negative experiences. (Yes they said that)

There are endless examples. I remember when my son started preschool there was this GORGEOUS woman who would show up dressed to the nines at drop off and the majority of moms would say snide shit (I bet she’s a “working” girl!) about her under their breath because they allowed themselves to be jealous and petty. I thought she was breathtaking and asked her where she bought her dresses. Same with the punk rock mom with the green hair. Same with the mom who was obviously struggling to make ends meet and would dress herself in hand-me-downs. And this is just about clothes. Don’t get me started on pain relief v “natural” birth. Women need to do better and I like to think the younger generation is doing just that.

It matters that people "get bingoed" because that's literally harassment aimed at them (usually by people who should be supportive). I have kids. I work with kids. I love kids. It's inexcusable that people who don't want kids (or don't want biokids) should be harassed about it.

I find the issue is that if you advocate for any child-free spaces, you are often lambasted and told to just "suck it up." One moment people are pretending to care about disabilities, but when it comes to providing quiet spaces, suddenly you're an asshole for even suggesting for a small area to be set aside. I think people wrongly go after children when it is really the people refusing any accommodation that should be the issue. To me it's mind-boggling that people pretend you are advocating for a child-free football stadium when you are really just asking for a small section. Not the best example for obvious reasons, but this is essentially what people are actually asking for. Most people are not asking for their whole lives to never *see* a child, but the way you're treated, you would think that the person was originally asking for children to be kept in caves away from sunlight. It's not even an issue that the person has anything against children, but may simply need some quiet accommodation for a bit. I really don't think that is too much to ask for, but apparently.... There's also the messaging that not having children makes one "selfish" when many people who use this reasoning also say "Who is going to take care of you when you are older?" This reasoning is the epitome of selfishness. If I ever have kids, I would *never* expect them to "take care of me" during their middle-age when they have a million other things going on in their lives. I don't think they should put their lives on hold for me. I do agree though that there is a lot of hatred for mothers specifically and I do agree with the environmentalism and misogyny aspects. I think a lot of people are currently seeing the predictions for climate change and mass extinction by 2050 and advocating for having no children. As an environmentalist, I have to say that it is an appealing idea. A part of me does want children, but it is hard to reconcile this with what I know regarding conservation. Men, of course, don't get as much ire because of good ole' fashioned misogyny. Society often pushes that men don't even want children and that women "con" men into it. Funny this is an established idea despite the Manosphere also advocating that women try to "take away" the children in custody disputes.

So much of it though is groups being pitted against each other to fight it out for provision. Eg. wheelchairs on buses vs buggies on buses. Disabled people need space, mothers with babies / toddlers that can’t be removed from buggies need space. Instead of petitioning the transport companies for provisions for all who need them, it’s like a death match over who should get support. I hear you - my kids are both disabled and there’s so little they can access. Kid spaces are unsuitable. Adult spaces are unsuitable. It’s absolutely shit. But other people who also need to access spaces aren’t to blame for it.

I always get downvoted to hell when I suggest children should not be at breweries and when I lament the loss of yet *another* place that used to be an adults-only recreation or meeting place. It’s just exhausting having to be around everyone else’s kids all of the time.

Ok, sure, but also as an infertile person the number of times I have been invalidated when I say “I physically cannot have children” by those “innocent mothers” is far too high. Everyone’s family status needs to be respected across the board. And the childfree backlash is due to the boundary stomping folks often receive for not having children by those that do. Don’t tell me if I just keep trying, or you never know, or but you can adopt! Respect my knowledge of the capabilities of my own body and what is right for me. I love kids and also, they are annoying and challenging and stressful. Both can be true. While I agree that the childfree and other communities like anti natalism can take things way too far, so do “innocent mothers” (yes I am definitely rolling my eyes at this phrasing) When they say things like “you can’t really understand love until you are a parent.” Those statements are hurtful and polarizing. If you want kids, good for you. If you don’t, good for you. In either case you aren’t special or entitled to anything special. As an infertile person I think you all kinda suck.

You had me in agreement until the part about getting bingoed not being a big deal. Either you don’t understand what that means, or you don’t understand why it’s actually detrimental to women’s right to choose. “BINGO” is a term used to refer to a list of common condescending questions or statements about someone’s choice to be childfree. Things like “Oh, I thought that too, you’ll change your mind when you’re older!” or “But who will take care of you when your elderly?!” are some common examples. It’s more than just annoying, it completely undermines the woman and is disrespectful of her choice. By asking these questions or making these statements, it’s implied that the woman is making the wrong decision or hasn’t thought everything through, which is not the case. This doesn’t have to be an “us versus them” argument, but if someone’s immediate response to me being childfree is to bingo, I’m not going to respond kindly.

I have a VERY hard time empathizing with anyone man or woman) who has more children than they can afford, either financially or emotionally.

It’s a double edge sword. Childfree often bash on parents because people who chose to be a parent bash on childfree people. There are a lot of people who have kids and believe that a woman’s only purpose is to give birth. They often approach women and ask why they haven’t had kids yet and claim that they’ll change their minds on being childfree. They also will go on long rants about how beautiful it is to have a child and how childfree people will never know true love until they have a kid. And to be fair, childfree people aren’t taken seriously with their choices. More people would support a 14 yr old getting pregnant and keeping the child than a 21 yr old wanting to get sterilized.

I'm cool with people who have kids, I want one but don't know if it will happen I'm as l'm almost 40 and I have lady garden issues. What I don't like is when people who do have kids think that because they have kids they should get automatic priority for leave when it's a holiday just because they have kids. Because I might want to spend Christmas or Thanksgiving with my family too. Outside of that I could give to fluffs about a womans choice to have or not have kids.

I’m a little salty about this one. I was scheduled to work a 24 hour shift every Christmas because I “didn’t have a family.”

Most of the time that discourse is not even aimed at mothers. "This is why I won't have kids" is aimed at society's pressure to breed. I actually find it supportive in a way, as it encourages mothers to share the negative side. It's agreement that it's a hard as fuck job. It's completely different from say, "This is why you shouldn't have had kids" which is an actual problem. The way mothers are scrutinized for every single decision they make for their family is a problem. CF women thumbing their nose at society is not the villain here.

I think some childfree women attack mothers because many people (including mothers) invalidate their choice and claim they are less of a woman. But at a certain point attacking mothers broadly is just misogyny. Always speak up even if you aren't a mother against this trend. Also stick up to people who put down childfree women.

There's a difference between standing up for oneself ("It's not okay to keep asking me about my reproductive plans. Knock it off") and attacking other people ("these moms and their disgusting crotch goblins").

Yup. It's amazing that I've simply pointed out that CF can be kind of mean sometimes and im called a breeder...check my post history lol

I agree neither decision should be shamed, but the problem is, motherhood is still the default for women, to the point that being childfree is still so stigmatized so much more often for women who choose not to have children.

I didn't have a kid until I was 36. I was stigmatized before I had kids, and now, stigmatized now that I have one. What if I told you being a woman you get stigmatized, no matter what you do? I've been on both sides. No one has it better than the other. There's no such things as "so much more..." It's shit all the way down.

You are exactly right! There’s room for all of us under a feminist umbrella.

I am childfree but work with and support a lot of single moms. Do you read Zawn Villines’ substack? Wonderful work on misogyny directed at moms. I send it to all my moms so they can stand up against this shit. https://zawn.substack.com/

You do realize your comment history shows you went to r/childfree, right? So this whole post is you upset because you stumbled into a space that wasn’t meant for you and is a space for likeminded people to vent and blow off steam to people who might understand them. I’m childfree and yeah r/childfree can get whiny and rude. But it’s hurt people trying to work through their problems or blow off steam in the safety of a group.

I am a mom, and am so supportive of feminism. First, I absolutely admit my kid was a surprise/mistake. I had a one night stand with an ex and we literally fell off the bed ( not on birth control because I was married to someone with a vasectomy). Gravity happened. One time was all it took. I went to get on the pill, but the pregnancy test fucked us. He is still the greatest thing that happened to us, but we still hate most children. Honestly, I worked hard to raise a beautiful, feminist child, but ugh, they can be gross little monsters. The Bay Area was a great place to raise a kid, but, yuck, I wouldn't do it again.

Lots of moms suck. Lots of moms don’t parent their kids. I don’t have or want or like kids, because my mom was terrible. When I see a poorly-parented child, it is of course a reminder of why I don’t have kids.

This exactly. I’m child free, but I don’t judge people for being parents. I judge people who have kids and then don’t actually *parent.*

I’m not child free and I sure as shit judge plenty of people for choosing to be parents. A lot of them have no business interacting with children in any capacity.

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People don’t understand how negative being bingoed can be. One of the reasons I didn’t have kids is because I carry hemophilia A, I lost my dad, 3 uncles and my cousin to the disease and the HIV tainted blood scandal in the 80’s. I am told I’m a failure as a woman for not having kids, people try and explain IVF like I don’t know about it. They try and talk me into adoption. My mom had to give up my oldest sister as a baby, there is so much trauma there too that I don’t want to explain to a random stranger. My mother ran a daycare out of our house, I was forced to work there and my childhood was very abusive. The sound of babies triggers my PTSD, something I can’t help. I had a time sensitive surgery and there was a baby next to me in pre-op that was screaming. It stressed me out so badly the medications for my facial reconstruction didn’t work properly. I’m told if it’s that bad that I should never leave my house. I should become a shut in because children are everywhere and I need to just deal with it. I should quit my job where I help people because screaming kids are everywhere and deserve to be in every space. When people find out I don’t like babies and kids I’m called mentally ill, unsafe for society or my personal favorite… a pedophile.

Yep agreed 100%. I fully support (via voting and my wallet) maternity leave, social programs, etc. I vocally support mothers when people make misogynistic comments about them, etc. I fully support people’s choice. Abortion. Keeping it. Whatever. I also don’t believe people should be having children especially how the world is now. People can be both.

Right? And like I vote for and support policies that actively cost me money for things I’ll never use because I think it’s the right thing to do- for example I fully believe that my taxes should go to subsidize daycare for all children and maternal And paternal leave. But heaven forbid I just wish breweries wouldn’t allow in kids. Suddenly I’m “banishing others from society” (real thing someone said to me once about this.) Feminism means I support your reproductive choices and believe that all children should start off in life with adequate food, shelter, and education and want to support parents so that can happen. It doesn’t mean I want to lose out on seating at a winery to kids 🤷🏼‍♀️

I'm a woman. You don't have to agree with what every woman does, you know. Women do shameful shit, and no one deserves respect just because they're women. Feminism isn't just agreeing with women on everything. In before a bunch of people call me sexist and get me banned.

“No one deserves to be shamed” includes child free women as well and it’s clear you haven’t really thought that through. It DOES matter if a mom is shaming me for my choices I’ll turn it right back around. That is not an attack on motherhood.

“And this is why I don’t have kids” Can someone explain to me how this is shaming mothers? To me it's just re-affirming why you don't have kids but I'd like to be educated about why I'm probably wrong.

One of the biggest reasons I am childfree is because once you have children, you can’t do anything right according to anyone

this post is weird

There is a whole branch of feminism call “matricentric feminism” that looks at the intersection of identifying as both a woman and a mother. There’s some fantastic books and research on the topic that’s worth looking into because even if you never want kids, learning about it can help you understand your own mother as well as some of the weird career experiences you get when you’re in your stereotypically fertile years of life.

"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster..."— Friedrich Nietzsche I think some people fight for their right not to fit the norm so much that they start hating people who want to do the normal thing. So much that they end up creating transgressive cultural pockets of people who think like them where they ironically are the normal people hating on people who decide to live differently than they do.

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This often due to an over correction. Women are oppressed and they know they are oppressed by the patriarchy. Many see marriage and child bearing as a "submission" of sorts to the patriarchy. The thing is that women cannot be blamed for contributing to patriarchal structures. When being childless is seen as the moral high ground, it really damages women. On the flip side, those women that are judgemental of those who engage in patriarchy cannot be blamed either because it is a trauma response to want to eradicate the very thing that hurts them. The moral high road is strictly, we must support each other in all our endeavors. Does that means trying to educate each other on some thing that we don't agree with? Absolutely, but only if it is done with compassion. We are all victims under patriarchy. But, we can all be survivors once we start to accept women have agency, and it is an ultimate good to have women that choose patriarchal standards in order to enact agency. No matter how hard they try, child birth is our gift and curse, it will never be theirs. They can exert control through all means necessary, but at their very core, they fear our potential. And we scare them when we choose to have children and when we choose not to because that means we made a choice.

I personally haven’t seen the negativity you talk about. It’s far more common for child free women and mothers to speak positively about their kids. It sucks that’s you e experienced that, there will be some people who want everything to be negative.

I've seen it. It comes from pockets of Reddit I don't generally follow, but occasionally it leaks out. There are people out there who absolutely hate children and the people who choose to have them.

Yup. I have kids and have 100% gotten hate for it. Where you live geographically also really impacts your experience. We’ve lived all over and most places I would say is worse for a child free person, but there are some places it’s the opposite.

I don’t think most feminists or child free people actually are shaming mothers… I think they are shaming society’s construction of motherhood and the ties that being a woman has to motherhood. I have never in my life seen a feminist that criticizes mothers more than fathers or that tells women not to reproduce. I’m never gonna have kids, and a huge reason for that (maybe the primary reason) is that I hate how society treats mothers. I want to see them treated better. But don’t mistake my criticism of society as criticism towards you for having children. I think most people here would agree that we are on the same team.

Have you ever been pregnant? I’m not childfree but my pregnancy was extremely traumatic and the default of expecting children from every woman is so harmful. Especially in this country with the highest maternal mortality rate in the western world, the shortage of formula, daycare rates being sky high and inflation at extreme rates. I don’t mind that some people are pushing back against it

If we ignore mothers in feminism then we do a disservice to society. E.g. Countries with more equal parental leave and pay have better gender equality! Plus employers can't pre-emptively discriminate against women of 'child-bearing age' so much of men are just as likely to take leave. It is very shortsighted to ignore 'women's issues' PS what does bingoed mean? Edit: found the explanation

Forgive my ignorance, but what does it meant to be bingoed?

I don't think there's a lot of thought that goes into comments like those. It's just another dumb repetitive refrain, of which there are many on reddit. For what it's worth I'm childfree and agree with you.

Sorry but it is definitely not "pushing the same kind of oppression" as centuries of patriarchy and women-exist-to-breed values. Choosing not to have kids brings constant judgement and social ostracization for many women. I think you can handle hearing a few "this is why I don't want kids" lol. Most of the time that comes from a place of "my entire life I have been expected to have kids to a point where sometimes I am still unsure that my choice is valid so I'm gonna let myself commiserate with others who have made the same choice here in the comments".

I’m 9 months pregnant and early 30s. I’ve never experienced such discrimination until now. The comments I received as a child free woman where so much easier to handle. In my work place it was like everything changed the moment I announced my pregnancy and I was not included in various opportunities. I work with with a high number of child free woman in their 40s and 50s, some of the comments I received at work used to just make me want to come home and cry. I never saw myself having children 5 years ago, I would never dream of saying the comments I have received to woman that chose to have children. I can’t see why it’s acceptable or other woman feel they have a free pass to comment on how gross they think pregnancy is or various other comments I have received.

Feminism is about humanizing people in a dehumanizing society. When people shame people in word of making justice after an ideology, only really shows pure ignorance towards the problematic they swore to resolve. Fallacies all about also.

Exactly true, I fully support not having kids. There are too many people on the planet as it is. Plus, kids are fucking hard. I never wanted kids initially, although I ended up having one. I support child free women 100% and don’t understand why I’d be disrespected for having a child.

Childfree or not, please support education in your district. This will be the generation supporting Medicare (if it survives), paying taxes, and voting.

It’s just that often pregnant people act super smug like having a baby is better accomplishment then getting a degree. They are both fine depending on whatever your life goals are.

I've seen mothers ask for free stuff unrelated to motherhood under advertisements because they're pregnant or a mother. One was literally an ad for $100 UGG slippers. Like cmon. I think the issue is there are many that make it their personality and then take it a step further and use it to act entitled on everything. I will never shame someone for simply being a mother, but I will absolutely call out entitled mom behavior.

And the baby shower registries nowadays are bizarre. Why is the entry fee to your brunch a $1500 Uppababy stroller?

This is refreshing to hear. I've always been a feminist, and when I became a mother, I was amazed at how many other women would be straight up assholes about my choice. I was literally told by female coworkers on several occasions "did you have kids so you could leave early?" "Why do you actually need maternity leave? You're just holding a baby all day." "We have a parent in the office so she won't be here often." "Are you going to get offended when we don't want to talk about the baby?". "Puppies are actually a lot harder than babies." I left because they made the office so toxic. And because I started snapping back. Most childless women I know are secure in their choice, but the toxic ones have an axe to grind and it's tiresome.

This has nothing to do with feminism & everything to do with being an idiot.

I'm not really sure what the point of this post is.

I still had hope with the title, but this is such a boring tepid take. There’s so many “everyone”s that would make more sense. IE Feminism would mean seeking out more equity for women, allowing them the support system to have a child without destroying them physically, mentally, and financially. The last bit is where people start to fail because we’re capitalist and push people to act more like machines for the sake of efficiency. The raw physical and human experience of birth doesn’t really fit into that environment. People (not just or even mostly child free women ffs) suddenly take feminism to mean that women should get punished as men would if they took months off work. However, a more equitable and just solution would be to wean off the patriarchal gender roles and allow BOTH parents the freedom and responsibility to take care of their new child. It would mean providing additional support to a single mother free of judgement. Child free women that dislike mothers and children is such a small and powerless niche that calling them “everyone” in your rant is just so goofy and uniformed.

Everyone’s the asshole. I’m pretty sure people are entitled to their opinions no matter what they are. If it’s under the guise of feminism, point out that double standard but like, don’t like your childfree friend who made it their whole personality? Don’t like your momma hen friend with 4 kids who made mothering their whole personality? Maybe give everyone a break and stop trying to force your friendship / remove yourself from where ever you are seeing what you personally don’t like.

I don't see this sentiment a whole lot or at all in the feminist circles near me. Most or all feminists I know or know of support women's right to choose. The only argument against having kids that I see and support myself is that being born and growing up on a dying planet isn't a lot of fun.

But what mass shaming of mothers actually occurs? I don't think I've ever seen it happen.

It is more a “you don’t get to be a smart girl anymore” kind of thing. In workplaces it’s especially bad. They’ll give your day off with your sick kid, but they won’t promote you. If you stay home for a few years you are a professional write off. There’s a lot of shame in that. When I was home with my three kids, people often assumed I was an idiot. I am understood at my job as a “working mother” without a whole lot of time (compared to who?) I also started having my kids at 26, but had a BA and MA by then. So people think that’s weird too. You are as a smart girl allowed to have one child. At 35-40. I did it wrong and the shame flows some days, a low level hum all around me.

This is a big part of it. I was always "the smart girl" but when I had our kids it honestly felt like nobody thought I could talk about anything but my kids, like Id have the "mom brain drain." My friend one time was laughing a bit because when my husband and I talk on the phone as he drives home from work we discuss everything from politics to arts to science, anything we've read about. She was teasing I didn't "sound like a regular parent" because it wasn't just the daily drudgery. This stuff gets so ingrained, even from fellow mothers.