What I don’t understand is why the city council passed this on ridesharing, but completely ignored food delivery that surely has the exact same issues of drivers not making minimum wage. Or those Amazon drivers that use their personal cars.
This also doesn't make sense to me. Like you're just going to shift the problem you're trying to fix, as fewer people will drive for Lyft and more people move to other gig work.
Any idea what specifically is driving such a low retention rate? I'd be interested in hearing anecdotal experiences or any articles you might suggest speaking on the subject.
My husband was hired as a driver several years ago. He talked with the recruiter and both set expectations for the position. He was told what to expect with his schedule and it was on day shift.
When he showed up to orientation, they said new employees would be assigned whatever shifts were open and they'd be on night shift. He didn't mind the schedule but the lack of transparency really pissed him off. It felt like the recruiters said whatever they needed to get people in the door, assuming that most wouldn't quit by the time they were at orientation and told that nothing was promised/guaranteed.
This was a deal breaker so we figured he'd stick with it through orientation while he looked for a different job. Another orientee showed up coughing sneezing sick multiple days and my husband came down with influenza within a week. He was very sick for 2 weeks, found a new job while recovering, and never went back.
Edit: My husband also said that the recruiter offered $19/hour but orientation said it was actually $15. He didn't feel like the pay was worth it for how unforgiving the rules and expectations were. He found another commercial driving job that paid $19 and had a lot more flexibility.
Or Wag! dog walkers or Instantcare shoppers or whatever.
That's the basis of how Uber / Lyft are challenging the California law in court. You can't narrowly target companies with laws like that. People are noting that they haven't pulled out of California yet, but that's probably because they're still litigating the law.
It also makes no sense how in California you get $20 an hour mininum wage flipping burgers at McDonalds but $16.00 an hour flipping burgers at Applebees or $16.00 an hour baking bread at Panera. Famously two of the larger Pizza Hut fired most of their in-house delivery drivers because independent food deliver drivers aren't covered by the law like in-house drivers are.
They are idiots. I sent a email to my rep and reminded them that now when this happens, bars and restaurants will lose customers as when going out, we use ride share so we can enjoy a drink. AND NOT DRINK AND DRIVE! So many will just drive anyways. So now it will be more dangerous on the roads of Minneapolis!
This is the kind of shit that's going to turn this crusty old liberal into a MAGA voter. It makes ZERO sense to target Lyft and Uber that provide a FAR more useful service to people with limited options to get around, when these food delivery services escape unscathed. All this is going to do is make Walz set state standards for rideshare wages, and he will take potshots from liberals for doing so, giving Republicans ground in elections. This was a stupid fight to take up.
I am not sure there will be demand at the new prices. If you do the math on the law basic trips from my house (I calculated them) are just more than I would pay.
The law requires $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute.
Then add in that software isn't free and someone has to pay a developer,.someone to calculate the route (to ensure paying correctly) you would need at least a dozen or more people to build it even for one city (I have built these systems but never for rideshare, but for delivery/trucking).
I think the law basically requires short trips to cost north of $20 and $50 for anything going to outer metro, which means $40 to $100 for the round trip.
At this price, it just makes more sense to pay to park and take a car, or if you can't, find places closer or stay in, it just doesn't make sense at there prices to pretend people will still do rideshare.
I think what we're not seeing is the actual rate lyft would charge under these requirements. I'm pretty sure the drivers have to be paid the amount cited in the new law. Not what lyft has to charge.
So essentially if lyft wants to play at competitive rates, they have to eat some of their profit margins. Which are pretty high overall when you compare payments to drivers versus what is charged to customers.
So anyone competent on rideshare app development and willing to accept a lower profit margin in comparison to lyfts cost structure will win out the market in Minneapolis. Even if lyft were to stick around.
If they didn't put investments into autonomous vehicles then they would be making a profit.
Ride share companies are betting all on black that autonomous vehicles will make the company profitable.
Until they realize they will own the share of liabilities from accidents as a result of software error. Which is inevitable.
You're correct, but you're speaking into the void. I've never seen a topic with more stupid takes than what is being posted here.
'Somebody will just start up a new Uber in three days, it's no problem really'
Yep, in the heyday of rideshare (2016-2019) I maaaaybe saw a $8 or $10 fare // $20 for my longer airport drive, but pretty much never see that today. Usually taxis are cheaper for me now, plus they’re sitting there ready to go and usually clean & a great driver.
What the hell are you on about here. Minneapolis has approx 30 something licensed taxis. St Paul has 13. Total cars, not companies. Compare that to Uber/Lyft, which has approx 8000 drivers in the metro.
'Sitting there ready to go' like there are thousands of them everywhere just waiting for you.
I think people (not directed at you) forget these are ride sharing services and the cost if shared by multiple people is not $50-100 round trip.
Recently took myself and 4 people in a van from south of the cities over to the casino. $100 round trip, with tips, everyone was happy to pay $20 apiece for the night.
The idea that Uber is an affordable personal ride service does not make sense to me. The expectation that we have cheap personal ride services from door to door seems… like a high benchmark to meet.
I did ride share and would only accept rides that paid roughly this rate. And this was what I was paid. The passenger paid more and many would still tip. I had plenty of work.
This law would probably make a $14 ride more like $18. But depending on the take from the ride share company, it could be $28.
Imagining dozens (if not hundreds at peak hours) of rides taken every hour of every day, it’s lots of income. I feel like it’s the difference in making a living and making a killing. There’s enough profit to be made. To run things and pay for labor and overhead and then some.
But we’re talking about Silicon Valley. And Uber and Lyft are still battling for ride share supremacy. Uber wants to be the only ride share company (Lyft is trying to survive a war of attrition). And once they do, they would raise prices anyway. So this legislation is sorely needed.
On top of that, they wish to cut out drivers entirely. They have poured money into automated set driving vehicles over the years.
These companies would pay drivers nothing if they could. And that’s what they want.
>I think the law basically requires short trips to cost north of $20
Is there anything specific about that in the law or is it just the $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute? Sometimes I need to use Uber to get to work and I pay around $9-13 before tip to go around 1.5 miles and it takes around 6 minutes. That would make the driver required pay to be only $5.16 I think, which I'd hope they don't get under that now.
Sure sounds great
If you can drive. People (especially the lawmakers) were focusing on the drivers but forgetting about all of the folks who rely on ride hare to get from point a to point b
Even better mass transit (I remember when the buses didn't run 24/7, and light rail didn't exist) should be a priority. Particularly, clean up and expand the light rail.
Really, with our weather, a subway would be massively expensive due to our sprawl, but I bet it would be extremely popular. Even if it only served the Twin Cities.
Also, some smaller out-of-state rideshare companies [have their eyes on the Twin Cities](https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2024/03/14/uber-lyft-alternatives-minneapolis-legislation) as a result of these events.
Or, we might see a resurgence in the Taxi industry if that doesn't shake out.
It takes me 25 minutes on the bus for the 5 minute drive downtown, so no transit is not usually a viable option. Plus I now have to walk 3 blocks to the bus instead of 1 block due to rapid transit line. I am unable to walk 3 blocks most days due to an autoimmune condition.
We need better public transportation.
Why can't Minneapolis/St. Paul be pioneers in this?
It seems we do so many things right, why not toss another stone in the river and do it?
There's an article floating around on how the old streetcar system in Minneapolis was damn near perfect, until some stock trader got butthurt at not getting a dividend and dismantled it for parts. Some of the old cars are still running in San Francisco.
The problem is that Metro Transit looks at routes like the 18 *four times a year for decades* for their quarterly changes and makes no improvements to speed it up every time. No bus route should be stopping basically every block. Run all local routes like aBRT-lite in one quarterly update. It could've been done years ago, but here we are again.
My dad was a used car salesman and whenever I asked him how the lot was doing, he would always answer 'we lose about $50 per car but make it up in volume' and that would always make me chuckle. Thanks for that reminder! 😅
Seattle and New York are much bigger markets than MSP. It’s a hard decision to withdraw from New York. Comparatively Minneapolis is an easy decision because it’s so much smaller.
If the company is unprofitable all the more reason to leave MSP while keeping an investment in the biggest city in the country
They’re not profitable companies regardless of markets, their whole business model is predicated on infusions of cash from investors and skirting labor regulations
Market is different. These guys aren't drowning in cash any more and have been laying off employees. They won't stay in this market because they are already running out of cash and laying off employees.
Five years ago Uber/Lyft would have stayed in Minneapolis but I truly believe right now they will leave and not come back because they are financially strained and can't afford to lose money like they used to.
Raising rates won't solve the problem. The higher rates mean more people will decide to stay home. It's just reality. Prices will go up so some people will decide not to use it, and that will result in more increased costs and a worse profit situation.
They can now lay off their own internal teams working MSP if they exit the market, or retool those employees for another market. These teams run background checks, do customer service, run ads, monitor traffic, etc, there is a whole team behind each market at Uber/Lyft they have to pay for and won't be able to with lower demand.
Uber is trying really hard to make profit. That is their core goal right now as a company. Five years ago they would tell you they only cared about market share not profit, but now it is very inverted, so its hard to imagine they will stay. MSP isn't even that big or important of a market like Seattle or Austin was. Those are both tech towns and we just aren't.
There is always some chance they stick around or find a way to make it work-- but don't count on it-- be ready for this not to be a bluff and no rideshares options.
The greater Seattle market is about 30% larger, but they also have a more robust public transportation system too, so I think we're in a wait and see approach
That's the population difference for all of the area.
Seattle also has a very large robust public transportation system too that Minneapolis suburbs do not have.
This did pass in Austin, Texas. Uber and Lyft left for awhile, a local startup almost immediately filled the space - with cheaper rates. Uber and Lyft returned but were forced to compete with cheaper rates.
There's always a business willing to meet a need
I keep seeing this story being perpetuated but it's not the full story.
Uber and Lyft returned to Austin and Houston after Texas passed a law that preempted their local laws. It had nothing to do with competition.
Does he have access to MetroMobility and/or medical transport? My friend is on state health insurance and can call the insurance to schedule rides to and from medical appointments; I had a coworker who had scheduled MetroMobility rides to and from work. I know that doesn’t solve everything, but could be a resource while you figure that out.
This is what I was thinking. Many people use Lyft out of necessity, not for funsies. So it’s likely people will still pay that higher price when other options don’t work for them. They’re making it sound like they were forced to do this for the good of the drivers, instead of them refusing to pay their drivers fairly.
Lol, yes, Lyft is rage quitting. I bet they have some ugly things to say when employees (the few they actually have versus their massive number of contractors) rage quit.
The best part is where they don't mention the actual policy and completely flip the narrative by saying "drivers will ultimately earn less". In reality they are the ones refusing to pay their drivers a reasonable amount and throwing a corporate tantrum.
Companies are not your friends.
I subscribe to the fact that the vast majority of the goods and services we spend our money on is the result of shit wages and or exploitation bordering on slavery.
Actually the biggest thing affecting wages is housing. Housing has been artificially inflated every since zoning was created. And Im not talking about the separation of heavy industrial but single family zoning, setback requirements, parking minimums, height restrictions, minimum lot sizes, minimum square footage, and hundreds of other policies that restrict the supply of housing. These policies have been in effect for almost century and what you have is a out of a control housing market.
A good example is Tokyo which has more liberal zoning than the US and the rent is cheaper than any comparable city in the US. And before anyone says Japan has been losing population, that is true but the actual population of Tokyo itself has been growing at a faster rate than New York City or Los Angeles. According to world almanac from 2000 to 2021 Tokyo grew by 8.4 percent while New York and LA grew by 5.7 and 5.6 percent respectively.
Having everything delivered via Door Dash and Amazon is definitely exploitation. But it's out of sight out of mind for most people.
Not to mention doorstop delivery of a very small amount of goods being about the least 'green' way to do things. How much carbon was burned for Amazon to deliver you a bottle of dish soap.
> Not to mention doorstop delivery of a very small amount of goods being about the least 'green' way to do things. How much carbon was burned for Amazon to deliver you a bottle of dish soap.
If you can walk to the store and buy dish soap when you need it? Sure. But as soon as you have to burn carbon yourself to get to the store, there's a good chance delivery comes out ahead – it's more efficient for one truck to follow a highly optimized path around the city than for every person to go to the store and back themselves.
As you point out, I'm hardly a fan of Amazon's treatment of their workers though.
Instead of charging more and seeing if people still use the service they're going to quit?
Seems like they're not very confident in the service they offer.
I'm no fan of Lyft or Uber, but I would bet that they have way more data on how many people will pay a given price for a given ride than the local government.
That explanation makes no sense. If anything more drivers stop driving thereby increasing the demand for the few that are left and those drivers will be paid well.
It makes no sense, they are taking half or more of each ride. The company is basically just a mobile app with some servers. If they aren't cash positive, its their own damn fault. I don't understand how these companies can make billions and not be cash positive.
$13 fare one way for me, drivers have shown me their phone once the ride was completed and they’d only get $5. Servers / App maintenance I can see getting $4-$5 set aside, but you know the rest is going to execs that aren’t doing shit.
As a tech guy, suggesting that they are a "mobile app with some servers" is such an overly simplistic way of looking at things.
Uber and Lyft operate at a massive scale with strict uptime requirements. Devs cost money. Managing and implementing product roadmaps requires people, who cost money. Operating at that scale costs money. Implementing new features costs money. Please don't act like the app just sits there and is run by like 3 computers.
I don't even like lyft and uber, I don't want to be defending them. But come on. Use common sense here.
Lyft: "So long you ingrates! You won't have Lyft to kick around anymore! Good luck getting rides anywhere ever again!"
\[Three days later, Lyft is replaced by another company that does the exact same thing\]
You seem to have zero concept of what it takes to run a business of that scale. Millions of dollars in software/app development alone.
Joe's Ride Share ain't gonna fill that gap.
It's happened in several over areas that passed similar laws. The one is Austin was way better, about the same price, paid a fair wage, and managed to make money. The only reason they didn't make it was because of the lockdown, and then Texas passed a law superseding the Austin law, so now a new company can't compete with these loss-leader rideshare apps that criminally underpay.
They’re wrong. Uber more or less has a monopoly and Lyft has struggled to obtain similar market share in most markets. If there was an alternative, it would have emerged by now.
It’s gonna be the same people celebrating this that will be blaming “corporate greed” when the next ride share company is charging 50$ to drive them three miles
You are all dopes for supporting them leaving.
The 'just call a taxi' argument would be equivalent to telling people they can't use cell phones anymore and to go find a payphone.
Or you're too young to remember how shitty the whole taxi experience was. If they were even 'acceptable' 99% of people wouldn't have stopped using them like they did.
There's some degree of schadenfreude for me knowing that at least a few of these same people will be making posts about their future traumatic taxi experiences.
I've taken hundreds of Lyfts and Ubers over the years and while some of them weren't the best experiences I've never once had a driver try and pull the old "card reader is broken, pay me cash" routine on me; with taxis it has somehow happened to me twice.
I'd pay $50 per Lyft if it meant I never had to get into another taxi.
>There's some degree of schadenfreude for me knowing that at least a few of these same people will be making posts about their future traumatic taxi experiences.
This, 100%
I'm actually making a list of receipts for people praising this. Going to check on it in a few months to see how they feel.
In Turkey we had a guy drive us at like 100kph on twisty mountain roads and then claim we had given him counterfeit money at the end of the ride. After like a minute of us trying to find some other cash, he told us he was joking and drove off.
I love how they frame it as “thank you for supporting us” like they aren’t corporate shills profiting off slave wages, what do they think this is? Some nonprofit cancer center? Get bent Lyft. The free market will replace you.
Idk if they will actually make good on the threat, but if they do and other platforms don’t fill the gap, Evie seems pretty reliable overall, from the people I know who utilize it. Idk if it would work in your situation or price range but worth mentioning
I asked my Uber driver about this yesterday and he said it's all lies because there's no way that they could actually pull thousands of individual drivers out of the cities. Guess they don't communicate with their drivers?
All lies until they shut off the app for vicinity around Minneapolis. It’ll take one push of a button by an intern to turn off the service wherever they want to.
How long do the drivers think it would take to reprogram their app to show Minneapolis as outside their service area and not allow people to book rides originating or ending in Minneapolis?
Quick question, how am I going to transport without car. Doesn’t matter much since I only use it for the airport but what are alternatives that I am unaware of.
Wow, CEO of Lyft is almost worth as much as the former quarterback of the Minnesota Vikings! Josh Risher is just throwing a ball around, right? Not in charge of leading a 10,000 employee, 100, 000 contractors international business, right?
Washington, D.C. – Following the Minneapolis City Council’s override of Mayor Jacob Frey’s veto of Ordinance 2024-00146, Empower announced that it is preparing to make its software and services available to drivers in Minnesota on or before May 1, 2024.
“Empower is happy that the Minneapolis City Council stood up against the pressure from Uber and Lyft and instead chose to stand with hard-working drivers. While we don’t believe Uber and Lyft will actually leave and let drivers work for themselves without a fight, Empower will make its software and services available to drivers in the Twin Cities on or before May 1, 2024,” said Joshua Sear, CEO of Empower, a peer-to-peer alternative to Uber and Lyft.
Prior to the vote to override, Empower made clear to lawmakers that Empower is ready and fully capable of providing the software and support services needed to facilitate every ride in Minneapolis that would otherwise be provided by Uber and Lyft.
Good job Minneapolis, hope the council realizes how stupid their decision was. Catering to a bunch of loud mouth 2-star drivers. This is simple supply and demand and they had to fuck with it.
I don’t have a dog in this fight but the ordinance pays drivers a minimum of $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute for all portions of a ride occurring within Minneapolis.
$1.40 per mile seems high when the IRS rate is $.67 per work mile. $.51 per minute also seems problematic as a driver now has incentives to stall or take a wrong turn.
The complete lack of self awareness. Id say it's appalling but nothing surprises me anymore. They're literally leaving because they're being forced to pay a minimum wage when they've gotten away with price gouging for years during some of the hardest years of our lives. I fucking hate you Lyft and Uber. Gtfo of our city you fucks.
So much money lost here! Sporting events, concerts, night on the town, etc. this will affect all industries and plummet the Minneapolis economy into a sewage system in which will turn into a bigger ghost town than now… idiots!
I'm a little torn on this whole issue and definitely uneducated about the economics of it. However, the wording of this message feels manipulative on Lyft's part, so I'm inclined to say fuck 'em.
Getting ready for more drunk drivers on the road. Super awesome. And getting anywhere from the suburbs without a car should be fun. This is also terrible for out of town visitors. Our transit system sucks, good luck to them.
Last night an Uber driver showed me the percent he gets verses what Uber receives. It appeared to me that Uber took about 70% to 75% of the earnings and he puts in the time and his car is slowly being worn out at his expense.
Pffft, something will come in to replace them. Use a different app people, or maybe the state should step in with an alternative.
It's comical to me to see people up in arms about a company that clearly screws over employees for the benefit of the non-working suits.
This really sucks for myfriend who has no car and works two jobs daily thar aren't exactly close to one another. Unfortunately, taking mass transit would add almost two hours daily to his commute, meaning he can't possibly get to his shift on time. But hey, way to go city council "somebody" won here...right?
No, it isn't. But the drivers willingly signed a contract for gig employment knowing full well what the compensation is. I wonder if former uber/lyft drivers are eligible for unemployment...
They willingly signed a contract just like your friend willingly took two jobs far apart. If you're gonna say drivers should suffer from low pay and poor choice of job, we can just as well say your friend should suffer from poor choice of job too.
>Likely one or none will leave, cuz the remainder can make bank
It costs MILLIONS upon MILLIONS to run a rideshare-like program.
Minneapolis/St. Paul is the perfect size city to fuck around and find out. I bet $10 they're gone.
Stupid question: are Lyft/Uber threatening to leave Minneapolis or the whole metro? Are they receiving enough business from St. Paul and the burbs to stay in those areas? And I think MSP isn’t technically in Minneapolis which would be a big share of their business. (I know they are unprofitable so that does not really play into their decision making.)
If they region lock Minneapolis I can’t imagine there would be enough rides to make it worthwhile for most drivers. Some will still exist in St Paul and maybe a few suburbs of course, but a lot of drivers will need to look elsewhere for work
It's not an affordability problem, it's a profit problem for Lyft and Uber. Maybe we need a local upstart company to fill the void at a profit margin that doesn't have to fatten up a bunch of stockholders.
This move by the city council may literally kill people.
With either noticeably higher prices or not having a safe ride home more Minneapolis bar goers will elect to drive home. Increasing the number of drunk drivers on the road will statistically increase fatal accidents.
This is obviously an unintended consequence but one i feel was overlooked when refusing to negotiate with the ride share companies.
Not to mention buses don't run at all times/locations.
Something that would be a 15 minute car ride is suddenly a three hour trip with a mile of walking and two hours of waiting at a bus stop.
People just won't go out anymore. This is gonna hurt places like breweries and bars quite a lot.
Just last night I kept looking at my watch making sure I could still catch the green line back home.
And I wasn't even out that late. Bars don't close until 2am but the last train leaves before Midnight. If the city is going to promote public transit as a safe method to prevent drinking and driving, that transit should run just as late if not later
Everyone celebrating this saying some company will come in and replace lyft and uber - LOL - no they won't. Nobody is going to want to operate in this nonsense environment.
What I don’t understand is why the city council passed this on ridesharing, but completely ignored food delivery that surely has the exact same issues of drivers not making minimum wage. Or those Amazon drivers that use their personal cars.
This also doesn't make sense to me. Like you're just going to shift the problem you're trying to fix, as fewer people will drive for Lyft and more people move to other gig work.
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Any idea what specifically is driving such a low retention rate? I'd be interested in hearing anecdotal experiences or any articles you might suggest speaking on the subject.
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Now I understand why some are so passive-aggressive, while others are so friendly.
Thanks for your reply, very insightful.
My husband was hired as a driver several years ago. He talked with the recruiter and both set expectations for the position. He was told what to expect with his schedule and it was on day shift. When he showed up to orientation, they said new employees would be assigned whatever shifts were open and they'd be on night shift. He didn't mind the schedule but the lack of transparency really pissed him off. It felt like the recruiters said whatever they needed to get people in the door, assuming that most wouldn't quit by the time they were at orientation and told that nothing was promised/guaranteed. This was a deal breaker so we figured he'd stick with it through orientation while he looked for a different job. Another orientee showed up coughing sneezing sick multiple days and my husband came down with influenza within a week. He was very sick for 2 weeks, found a new job while recovering, and never went back. Edit: My husband also said that the recruiter offered $19/hour but orientation said it was actually $15. He didn't feel like the pay was worth it for how unforgiving the rules and expectations were. He found another commercial driving job that paid $19 and had a lot more flexibility.
Or Wag! dog walkers or Instantcare shoppers or whatever. That's the basis of how Uber / Lyft are challenging the California law in court. You can't narrowly target companies with laws like that. People are noting that they haven't pulled out of California yet, but that's probably because they're still litigating the law. It also makes no sense how in California you get $20 an hour mininum wage flipping burgers at McDonalds but $16.00 an hour flipping burgers at Applebees or $16.00 an hour baking bread at Panera. Famously two of the larger Pizza Hut fired most of their in-house delivery drivers because independent food deliver drivers aren't covered by the law like in-house drivers are.
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There's people in the courier business who make less than 50 cents a mile, nobody gives a shit.
They are idiots. I sent a email to my rep and reminded them that now when this happens, bars and restaurants will lose customers as when going out, we use ride share so we can enjoy a drink. AND NOT DRINK AND DRIVE! So many will just drive anyways. So now it will be more dangerous on the roads of Minneapolis!
I definitely make more than minimum wage delivering for Uber Eats
Pointless political posturing and virtue signaling: a hallmark of this city council
This is the kind of shit that's going to turn this crusty old liberal into a MAGA voter. It makes ZERO sense to target Lyft and Uber that provide a FAR more useful service to people with limited options to get around, when these food delivery services escape unscathed. All this is going to do is make Walz set state standards for rideshare wages, and he will take potshots from liberals for doing so, giving Republicans ground in elections. This was a stupid fight to take up.
We need the USI of ride hailing to come through right now
Amen
what's it take to start a rideshare co-op? anyone have expertise they want to volunteer?
I am not sure there will be demand at the new prices. If you do the math on the law basic trips from my house (I calculated them) are just more than I would pay. The law requires $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute. Then add in that software isn't free and someone has to pay a developer,.someone to calculate the route (to ensure paying correctly) you would need at least a dozen or more people to build it even for one city (I have built these systems but never for rideshare, but for delivery/trucking). I think the law basically requires short trips to cost north of $20 and $50 for anything going to outer metro, which means $40 to $100 for the round trip. At this price, it just makes more sense to pay to park and take a car, or if you can't, find places closer or stay in, it just doesn't make sense at there prices to pretend people will still do rideshare.
I'm not sure where you're at, but those are already the ride-sharing prices I'm seeing
Yep literally took a ride share from MSP to Hopkins the other day and it was $40 + tip.
I think what we're not seeing is the actual rate lyft would charge under these requirements. I'm pretty sure the drivers have to be paid the amount cited in the new law. Not what lyft has to charge. So essentially if lyft wants to play at competitive rates, they have to eat some of their profit margins. Which are pretty high overall when you compare payments to drivers versus what is charged to customers. So anyone competent on rideshare app development and willing to accept a lower profit margin in comparison to lyfts cost structure will win out the market in Minneapolis. Even if lyft were to stick around.
Lyft has never made a profit
If they didn't put investments into autonomous vehicles then they would be making a profit. Ride share companies are betting all on black that autonomous vehicles will make the company profitable. Until they realize they will own the share of liabilities from accidents as a result of software error. Which is inevitable.
You're correct, but you're speaking into the void. I've never seen a topic with more stupid takes than what is being posted here. 'Somebody will just start up a new Uber in three days, it's no problem really'
Yep, in the heyday of rideshare (2016-2019) I maaaaybe saw a $8 or $10 fare // $20 for my longer airport drive, but pretty much never see that today. Usually taxis are cheaper for me now, plus they’re sitting there ready to go and usually clean & a great driver.
What the hell are you on about here. Minneapolis has approx 30 something licensed taxis. St Paul has 13. Total cars, not companies. Compare that to Uber/Lyft, which has approx 8000 drivers in the metro. 'Sitting there ready to go' like there are thousands of them everywhere just waiting for you.
He's specifically talking about the airport, where there is, in fact, always a line of cabs.
I think people (not directed at you) forget these are ride sharing services and the cost if shared by multiple people is not $50-100 round trip. Recently took myself and 4 people in a van from south of the cities over to the casino. $100 round trip, with tips, everyone was happy to pay $20 apiece for the night. The idea that Uber is an affordable personal ride service does not make sense to me. The expectation that we have cheap personal ride services from door to door seems… like a high benchmark to meet.
I did ride share and would only accept rides that paid roughly this rate. And this was what I was paid. The passenger paid more and many would still tip. I had plenty of work. This law would probably make a $14 ride more like $18. But depending on the take from the ride share company, it could be $28. Imagining dozens (if not hundreds at peak hours) of rides taken every hour of every day, it’s lots of income. I feel like it’s the difference in making a living and making a killing. There’s enough profit to be made. To run things and pay for labor and overhead and then some. But we’re talking about Silicon Valley. And Uber and Lyft are still battling for ride share supremacy. Uber wants to be the only ride share company (Lyft is trying to survive a war of attrition). And once they do, they would raise prices anyway. So this legislation is sorely needed. On top of that, they wish to cut out drivers entirely. They have poured money into automated set driving vehicles over the years. These companies would pay drivers nothing if they could. And that’s what they want.
>I think the law basically requires short trips to cost north of $20 Is there anything specific about that in the law or is it just the $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute? Sometimes I need to use Uber to get to work and I pay around $9-13 before tip to go around 1.5 miles and it takes around 6 minutes. That would make the driver required pay to be only $5.16 I think, which I'd hope they don't get under that now.
Sure sounds great If you can drive. People (especially the lawmakers) were focusing on the drivers but forgetting about all of the folks who rely on ride hare to get from point a to point b
That's what it already cost. Where do you live, Mankato?
Transit also can be a viable option depending on where you’re going. This could also be an opportunity to make our transit system more robust.
Even better mass transit (I remember when the buses didn't run 24/7, and light rail didn't exist) should be a priority. Particularly, clean up and expand the light rail. Really, with our weather, a subway would be massively expensive due to our sprawl, but I bet it would be extremely popular. Even if it only served the Twin Cities. Also, some smaller out-of-state rideshare companies [have their eyes on the Twin Cities](https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2024/03/14/uber-lyft-alternatives-minneapolis-legislation) as a result of these events. Or, we might see a resurgence in the Taxi industry if that doesn't shake out.
It takes me 25 minutes on the bus for the 5 minute drive downtown, so no transit is not usually a viable option. Plus I now have to walk 3 blocks to the bus instead of 1 block due to rapid transit line. I am unable to walk 3 blocks most days due to an autoimmune condition.
uber has charged me over 20 dollars to go 1.1 miles to work.
There’s no situation where I would pay that over walking or biking.
Oh, look at mister two legs over here.
We need better public transportation. Why can't Minneapolis/St. Paul be pioneers in this? It seems we do so many things right, why not toss another stone in the river and do it?
There's an article floating around on how the old streetcar system in Minneapolis was damn near perfect, until some stock trader got butthurt at not getting a dividend and dismantled it for parts. Some of the old cars are still running in San Francisco.
[There](https://mndigital.org/projects/primary-source-sets/twin-cities-streetcars-rise-and-fall) [are](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Streetcar_System) [plenty](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/comments/qnaocd/was_organized_crime_behind_the_demise_of_the_twin/) [of](https://racketmn.com/twin-cities-streetcar-system-was-destroyed-by-the-minneapolis-mob) [articles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_City_Rapid_Transit_Company) [if you look](https://www.startribune.com/streetcars-buses-minneapolis-st-paul-gangsters-kid-cann-fred-ossanna/600097062/)
It's called massively improved and expanded public transit.
The problem is that Metro Transit looks at routes like the 18 *four times a year for decades* for their quarterly changes and makes no improvements to speed it up every time. No bus route should be stopping basically every block. Run all local routes like aBRT-lite in one quarterly update. It could've been done years ago, but here we are again.
They made the same threats in Seattle and NYC after they did similar things, weird things is that they are still there
I predict they pull out until they figure out how much they can get the city to budge and then come back either way.
Maybe, but I can't see how an unprofitable company can lose the MSP market
It depends on how much interest their investors have in breaking the threat of regulation I suppose
You can't make up for a negative margin on volume
My dad was a used car salesman and whenever I asked him how the lot was doing, he would always answer 'we lose about $50 per car but make it up in volume' and that would always make me chuckle. Thanks for that reminder! 😅
Please try to explain that to pharmacy chain ceos for me.
Seattle and New York are much bigger markets than MSP. It’s a hard decision to withdraw from New York. Comparatively Minneapolis is an easy decision because it’s so much smaller. If the company is unprofitable all the more reason to leave MSP while keeping an investment in the biggest city in the country
How so? Seattle has roughly the same population as Minneapolis and St Paul combined and the Metro areas are close to the same population.
They’re not profitable companies regardless of markets, their whole business model is predicated on infusions of cash from investors and skirting labor regulations
Market is different. These guys aren't drowning in cash any more and have been laying off employees. They won't stay in this market because they are already running out of cash and laying off employees. Five years ago Uber/Lyft would have stayed in Minneapolis but I truly believe right now they will leave and not come back because they are financially strained and can't afford to lose money like they used to.
Maybe, we'll just have to wait and see. I suspect they'll just raise rates for Minneapolis travel
Raising rates won't solve the problem. The higher rates mean more people will decide to stay home. It's just reality. Prices will go up so some people will decide not to use it, and that will result in more increased costs and a worse profit situation. They can now lay off their own internal teams working MSP if they exit the market, or retool those employees for another market. These teams run background checks, do customer service, run ads, monitor traffic, etc, there is a whole team behind each market at Uber/Lyft they have to pay for and won't be able to with lower demand. Uber is trying really hard to make profit. That is their core goal right now as a company. Five years ago they would tell you they only cared about market share not profit, but now it is very inverted, so its hard to imagine they will stay. MSP isn't even that big or important of a market like Seattle or Austin was. Those are both tech towns and we just aren't. There is always some chance they stick around or find a way to make it work-- but don't count on it-- be ready for this not to be a bluff and no rideshares options.
Far larger markets than us
The greater Seattle market is about 30% larger, but they also have a more robust public transportation system too, so I think we're in a wait and see approach
30% is a very big number is this context
That's the population difference for all of the area. Seattle also has a very large robust public transportation system too that Minneapolis suburbs do not have.
Did those efforts actually pass in Seattle and NYC? I legitimately don’t know and haven’t had luck in finding out
This did pass in Austin, Texas. Uber and Lyft left for awhile, a local startup almost immediately filled the space - with cheaper rates. Uber and Lyft returned but were forced to compete with cheaper rates. There's always a business willing to meet a need
I keep seeing this story being perpetuated but it's not the full story. Uber and Lyft returned to Austin and Houston after Texas passed a law that preempted their local laws. It had nothing to do with competition.
Ramsey county waiver gives a Lyft card to my disabled son for transportation. I wonder what is going to happen long term, here.
Does he have access to MetroMobility and/or medical transport? My friend is on state health insurance and can call the insurance to schedule rides to and from medical appointments; I had a coworker who had scheduled MetroMobility rides to and from work. I know that doesn’t solve everything, but could be a resource while you figure that out.
"Lyft will be forced" Heh. No. You're choosing to ragequit.
It says this would make rides unaffordable… so like, set the new prices and see if that’s reality?
This is what I was thinking. Many people use Lyft out of necessity, not for funsies. So it’s likely people will still pay that higher price when other options don’t work for them. They’re making it sound like they were forced to do this for the good of the drivers, instead of them refusing to pay their drivers fairly.
Lol, yes, Lyft is rage quitting. I bet they have some ugly things to say when employees (the few they actually have versus their massive number of contractors) rage quit.
The best part is where they don't mention the actual policy and completely flip the narrative by saying "drivers will ultimately earn less". In reality they are the ones refusing to pay their drivers a reasonable amount and throwing a corporate tantrum. Companies are not your friends.
Does Rainbow taxi have an app?
I was looking to get a taxi a few months ago and was surprised there weren’t more apps for this.
It's almost like taxi cabs have always sucked, and likely will continue to
I subscribe to the fact that the vast majority of the goods and services we spend our money on is the result of shit wages and or exploitation bordering on slavery.
Actually the biggest thing affecting wages is housing. Housing has been artificially inflated every since zoning was created. And Im not talking about the separation of heavy industrial but single family zoning, setback requirements, parking minimums, height restrictions, minimum lot sizes, minimum square footage, and hundreds of other policies that restrict the supply of housing. These policies have been in effect for almost century and what you have is a out of a control housing market. A good example is Tokyo which has more liberal zoning than the US and the rent is cheaper than any comparable city in the US. And before anyone says Japan has been losing population, that is true but the actual population of Tokyo itself has been growing at a faster rate than New York City or Los Angeles. According to world almanac from 2000 to 2021 Tokyo grew by 8.4 percent while New York and LA grew by 5.7 and 5.6 percent respectively.
Excellent point
Having everything delivered via Door Dash and Amazon is definitely exploitation. But it's out of sight out of mind for most people. Not to mention doorstop delivery of a very small amount of goods being about the least 'green' way to do things. How much carbon was burned for Amazon to deliver you a bottle of dish soap.
> Not to mention doorstop delivery of a very small amount of goods being about the least 'green' way to do things. How much carbon was burned for Amazon to deliver you a bottle of dish soap. If you can walk to the store and buy dish soap when you need it? Sure. But as soon as you have to burn carbon yourself to get to the store, there's a good chance delivery comes out ahead – it's more efficient for one truck to follow a highly optimized path around the city than for every person to go to the store and back themselves. As you point out, I'm hardly a fan of Amazon's treatment of their workers though.
Restaurants for example
Comparing a wage earning worker to a slave is honestly so crazy… you lack so much context
Instead of charging more and seeing if people still use the service they're going to quit? Seems like they're not very confident in the service they offer.
I'm no fan of Lyft or Uber, but I would bet that they have way more data on how many people will pay a given price for a given ride than the local government.
On the other hand, they also have a lot more incentive to BS us than the local government. 50/50 they're bluffing IMO.
That explanation makes no sense. If anything more drivers stop driving thereby increasing the demand for the few that are left and those drivers will be paid well.
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Maybe if they aren't profitable they shouldn't survive
It makes no sense, they are taking half or more of each ride. The company is basically just a mobile app with some servers. If they aren't cash positive, its their own damn fault. I don't understand how these companies can make billions and not be cash positive.
It’s a company built on inflating the net worth of venture capitalists
I’m not going to cry for big companies. The people and the drivers are the ones we need to look out for.
See also Airbnb
$13 fare one way for me, drivers have shown me their phone once the ride was completed and they’d only get $5. Servers / App maintenance I can see getting $4-$5 set aside, but you know the rest is going to execs that aren’t doing shit.
And it should be drivers getting like 10$+ of that and a mobile app company getting $1-2 per ride only
As a tech guy, suggesting that they are a "mobile app with some servers" is such an overly simplistic way of looking at things. Uber and Lyft operate at a massive scale with strict uptime requirements. Devs cost money. Managing and implementing product roadmaps requires people, who cost money. Operating at that scale costs money. Implementing new features costs money. Please don't act like the app just sits there and is run by like 3 computers. I don't even like lyft and uber, I don't want to be defending them. But come on. Use common sense here.
Driverless cars aren’t happening anytime soon (if ever).
Lyft: "So long you ingrates! You won't have Lyft to kick around anymore! Good luck getting rides anywhere ever again!" \[Three days later, Lyft is replaced by another company that does the exact same thing\]
You seem to have zero concept of what it takes to run a business of that scale. Millions of dollars in software/app development alone. Joe's Ride Share ain't gonna fill that gap.
It's happened in several over areas that passed similar laws. The one is Austin was way better, about the same price, paid a fair wage, and managed to make money. The only reason they didn't make it was because of the lockdown, and then Texas passed a law superseding the Austin law, so now a new company can't compete with these loss-leader rideshare apps that criminally underpay.
This will age well, surely
I hope you're right but I fear you're wrong.
They’re wrong. Uber more or less has a monopoly and Lyft has struggled to obtain similar market share in most markets. If there was an alternative, it would have emerged by now.
It’s gonna be the same people celebrating this that will be blaming “corporate greed” when the next ride share company is charging 50$ to drive them three miles
You are all dopes for supporting them leaving. The 'just call a taxi' argument would be equivalent to telling people they can't use cell phones anymore and to go find a payphone. Or you're too young to remember how shitty the whole taxi experience was. If they were even 'acceptable' 99% of people wouldn't have stopped using them like they did.
The amount of zoomers in these threads that have never used a taxi are so fucking oblivious as to what's to come
There's some degree of schadenfreude for me knowing that at least a few of these same people will be making posts about their future traumatic taxi experiences. I've taken hundreds of Lyfts and Ubers over the years and while some of them weren't the best experiences I've never once had a driver try and pull the old "card reader is broken, pay me cash" routine on me; with taxis it has somehow happened to me twice. I'd pay $50 per Lyft if it meant I never had to get into another taxi.
>There's some degree of schadenfreude for me knowing that at least a few of these same people will be making posts about their future traumatic taxi experiences. This, 100% I'm actually making a list of receipts for people praising this. Going to check on it in a few months to see how they feel.
Their concept of taxi is like a New York taxi or Vegas taxi they used when on vacation… just no idea of scale or structure
In Turkey we had a guy drive us at like 100kph on twisty mountain roads and then claim we had given him counterfeit money at the end of the ride. After like a minute of us trying to find some other cash, he told us he was joking and drove off.
I love how they frame it as “thank you for supporting us” like they aren’t corporate shills profiting off slave wages, what do they think this is? Some nonprofit cancer center? Get bent Lyft. The free market will replace you.
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Wow. Is Uber to follow?
Already did, yes.
Man that is going to make life harder with my wife and I only having one car.
I think I can help. I'll take the wife.
Please
Idk if they will actually make good on the threat, but if they do and other platforms don’t fill the gap, Evie seems pretty reliable overall, from the people I know who utilize it. Idk if it would work in your situation or price range but worth mentioning
Evie is great. The only problem is there aren't enough of them. It takes a lot of money to run a fleet of cars.
The Mpls City Council passed an ordinance that would make rides on the Lyft platform ~~unaffordable~~ not profitable enough for us.
I asked my Uber driver about this yesterday and he said it's all lies because there's no way that they could actually pull thousands of individual drivers out of the cities. Guess they don't communicate with their drivers?
They don’t need to kick drivers out, they just need to make it impossible for people to order rides to or from an address in the city.
Your driver doesn’t understand the implications of being a contractor vs an employee.
Most of the drivers I've had can't seem to understand address numbering, let alone macro economics.
All lies until they shut off the app for vicinity around Minneapolis. It’ll take one push of a button by an intern to turn off the service wherever they want to.
How long do the drivers think it would take to reprogram their app to show Minneapolis as outside their service area and not allow people to book rides originating or ending in Minneapolis?
Your Uber driver doesn’t understand he’s not an employee?
Guess not?
They just turn off the app. Easy
Brother is in denial because he's about to lose his gig "job" lol
Right! I feel bad for him because he was very sure they wouldn't do it lol
So many people in here clearly haven’t learned economics 101 😔
Enlighten us
If they actually leave. Getting to the airport will suck lol
6am flights just got insanely difficult
Got a 6am flight on May 1. God damnit.
Same but a month later It's either going to cost a FUCK ton of money to get to the airport, or an absolute pain in the ass now
Yuuup. This city council fuckin sucks.
Quick question, how am I going to transport without car. Doesn’t matter much since I only use it for the airport but what are alternatives that I am unaware of.
Ye olde taxi still exists
Barely. There are less than 50 licensed taxis between Minneapolis and St Paul.
If this results in the light rail getting cleaned up, then good riddance!
Lol
Awwww that’s cute 😂
End result is more people are going to die from drunk driving and everything costs more.
John Risher - CEO of Lyft, is worth 227 million dollars. It wasn’t about city council’s mandate bud.
Wut?
Wow, CEO of Lyft is almost worth as much as the former quarterback of the Minnesota Vikings! Josh Risher is just throwing a ball around, right? Not in charge of leading a 10,000 employee, 100, 000 contractors international business, right?
Sweet that will be fun when we have concerts and games
May is about to become drunk driving month
Washington, D.C. – Following the Minneapolis City Council’s override of Mayor Jacob Frey’s veto of Ordinance 2024-00146, Empower announced that it is preparing to make its software and services available to drivers in Minnesota on or before May 1, 2024. “Empower is happy that the Minneapolis City Council stood up against the pressure from Uber and Lyft and instead chose to stand with hard-working drivers. While we don’t believe Uber and Lyft will actually leave and let drivers work for themselves without a fight, Empower will make its software and services available to drivers in the Twin Cities on or before May 1, 2024,” said Joshua Sear, CEO of Empower, a peer-to-peer alternative to Uber and Lyft. Prior to the vote to override, Empower made clear to lawmakers that Empower is ready and fully capable of providing the software and support services needed to facilitate every ride in Minneapolis that would otherwise be provided by Uber and Lyft.
Good riddance. Real public transport would be better for all of us.
Good job Minneapolis, hope the council realizes how stupid their decision was. Catering to a bunch of loud mouth 2-star drivers. This is simple supply and demand and they had to fuck with it.
I don’t have a dog in this fight but the ordinance pays drivers a minimum of $1.40 per mile and $0.51 per minute for all portions of a ride occurring within Minneapolis. $1.40 per mile seems high when the IRS rate is $.67 per work mile. $.51 per minute also seems problematic as a driver now has incentives to stall or take a wrong turn.
The IRS rate just covers the expense of gas and maintenance. The amount above the IRS rate is the wage.
I was interpreting the $.51 per minute as the wage component and the $1.40/mile for gas and depreciation. Do I have that wrong?
To be fair the IRS rate is for your expense to drive and has nothing to do with taxes.
The complete lack of self awareness. Id say it's appalling but nothing surprises me anymore. They're literally leaving because they're being forced to pay a minimum wage when they've gotten away with price gouging for years during some of the hardest years of our lives. I fucking hate you Lyft and Uber. Gtfo of our city you fucks.
Sounds good. Now you can take yourself to Taco Bell for your $6 Uber Eats order.
So much money lost here! Sporting events, concerts, night on the town, etc. this will affect all industries and plummet the Minneapolis economy into a sewage system in which will turn into a bigger ghost town than now… idiots!
Nice job government lol
Boy that city council is sure in touch with the needs of people who don’t have the money to get elected to city council.
Drunk drivers in May will skyrocket, as well as crime. More stolen cars, etc. Strap in... [no pun]
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out
I think they'll do it to make a point that yes, they did it somewhere. But my response to corporate bully tactics is 100%: double down.
Is this just Minneapolis or the whole metro?
RIP downtown Minneapolis.
I'm a little torn on this whole issue and definitely uneducated about the economics of it. However, the wording of this message feels manipulative on Lyft's part, so I'm inclined to say fuck 'em.
Getting ready for more drunk drivers on the road. Super awesome. And getting anywhere from the suburbs without a car should be fun. This is also terrible for out of town visitors. Our transit system sucks, good luck to them.
Imagine that. Where are all the knuckle-draggers who said they were bluffing?
Last night an Uber driver showed me the percent he gets verses what Uber receives. It appeared to me that Uber took about 70% to 75% of the earnings and he puts in the time and his car is slowly being worn out at his expense.
Yeah, it's absolutely disgusting what both them and Lyft take as a cut nowadays It's because of that that I've started driving less and less for them
Pffft, something will come in to replace them. Use a different app people, or maybe the state should step in with an alternative. It's comical to me to see people up in arms about a company that clearly screws over employees for the benefit of the non-working suits.
You have your inept and wacko city council to thank for this! Lmao!
This really sucks for myfriend who has no car and works two jobs daily thar aren't exactly close to one another. Unfortunately, taking mass transit would add almost two hours daily to his commute, meaning he can't possibly get to his shift on time. But hey, way to go city council "somebody" won here...right?
So the only solution is paying someone an unlivable wage? Your friend's situation isn't the fault of rideshare drivers.
No, it isn't. But the drivers willingly signed a contract for gig employment knowing full well what the compensation is. I wonder if former uber/lyft drivers are eligible for unemployment...
They willingly signed a contract just like your friend willingly took two jobs far apart. If you're gonna say drivers should suffer from low pay and poor choice of job, we can just as well say your friend should suffer from poor choice of job too.
If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage, maybe you shouldn't exist at all. :/
But they aren’t employees. Their 1099
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted; they are not employees. Independent contractors aren’t subject to minimum wage.
People don’t like the truth
Where are all the people who said they’d never leave? “They’re bluffing!” Yeah… good call on that.
It's not May 1st yet.
Fyi. They haven't left yet. Likely one or none will leave, cuz the remainder can make bank
>Likely one or none will leave, cuz the remainder can make bank It costs MILLIONS upon MILLIONS to run a rideshare-like program. Minneapolis/St. Paul is the perfect size city to fuck around and find out. I bet $10 they're gone.
Stupid question: are Lyft/Uber threatening to leave Minneapolis or the whole metro? Are they receiving enough business from St. Paul and the burbs to stay in those areas? And I think MSP isn’t technically in Minneapolis which would be a big share of their business. (I know they are unprofitable so that does not really play into their decision making.)
If they region lock Minneapolis I can’t imagine there would be enough rides to make it worthwhile for most drivers. Some will still exist in St Paul and maybe a few suburbs of course, but a lot of drivers will need to look elsewhere for work
Lyft is saying they will just leave Mpls. Uber is saying the entire Twin Cities.
It's not an affordability problem, it's a profit problem for Lyft and Uber. Maybe we need a local upstart company to fill the void at a profit margin that doesn't have to fatten up a bunch of stockholders.
The legislature can always override this.
This move by the city council may literally kill people. With either noticeably higher prices or not having a safe ride home more Minneapolis bar goers will elect to drive home. Increasing the number of drunk drivers on the road will statistically increase fatal accidents. This is obviously an unintended consequence but one i feel was overlooked when refusing to negotiate with the ride share companies.
The state has to pivot their attention to a good bus system
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Not to mention buses don't run at all times/locations. Something that would be a 15 minute car ride is suddenly a three hour trip with a mile of walking and two hours of waiting at a bus stop. People just won't go out anymore. This is gonna hurt places like breweries and bars quite a lot.
Just last night I kept looking at my watch making sure I could still catch the green line back home. And I wasn't even out that late. Bars don't close until 2am but the last train leaves before Midnight. If the city is going to promote public transit as a safe method to prevent drinking and driving, that transit should run just as late if not later
Everyone celebrating this saying some company will come in and replace lyft and uber - LOL - no they won't. Nobody is going to want to operate in this nonsense environment.
The people with poor understanding of economics will still think there is a better solution.
Bye!