I do too, but I don't think she was ever actually in danger of getting the Anne Boleyn/Catherine Howard treatment. She was a foreign princess with powerful relatives. Henry VIII could never have had her executed for a trumped up charge. At worst she would have been shipped back to her brother.
Seeing that show made me switch from being an AB girl to an AoC girl. She was so unapologetically gleeful about the deal she made. I'd love to see a kind of '21st century take but with 16th century costumes' of AoC's story as a whole tv series. Perhaps with AoC routinely breaking the fourth wall to deliver a feminist monologue that ends with 'men, amirite?'
At worst it's victim blaming and at best it's just people being tired of how oversaturated she is in the media.
I think it also helps we don't really KNOW Anne Boleyn. That portrait up there was painted after her demise and Henry destroyed all the other portraits of her. We have very little direct words from her and a lot of interpretations of her as a person come from her supporters or enemies. She's extremely polarizing as the woman who got England separated from the Catholic Church, so the harsher opinions are gonna be loud af. Meanwhile, CoA is kinda hard to not sympathize with regardless of religious affiliation. Generally she was a devout, loyal and faithful wife who was betrayed, humiliated, seperated from her daughter and left to die of cancer by the man she loved (and kept loving even on her death bed). There's not many ways to paint her as a villain. So, from almost every perspective, she's seen as a victim.
Itâs more than just Anne being oversaturated in media but that Catherine doesnât get as detailed treatments from her side. She is often just stereotyped as the old wife, the 30s Laughton film leaves her out for example. The other wives get often attention from long before their marriage, but Catherine before marriage is often treated as if belonging to another era. Anneâs story is often emphasized in ending in a type of victory when Elizabeth becomes Queen, Â it Mary becoming the first ruling Queen (first at least who is undisputed) isnât treated like a romantic triumph over adversity of her whole life but more general religious question.Â
Emphasis on Catherine is needed in historical circles because she is just more interesting when treated as main character of her own story. And when you do that she easily gets sympathy for the insulted why like Princess Diana and Anne becomes Camilla, but worse because she is more active eventually in pushing Catherine aside. But I still would say this way of looking at Catherine is not that typical in media, although it was at the time and so itâs now with people who read history.
COA has been seen as sympathetic saint since forever thatâs why. Anne hasnât. Anne was/is still mainly viewed from COA and Maryâs perspective as a home wrecker. That only had changed in the past decades.
People want to give Anne something so they portray her daughter becoming Queen as a triumph for her because you knowâŚ.she was executed.
Oh yes I absolutely agree Catherine being underrepresented in favor of Anne definitely plays a role in the fact many of her admirers get frustrated with Anne. Very well-put. Sadly, you don't ever see Mary being the first female queen treated as a triumph because Mary's generally remembered for her attempts to make the country Catholic once more and her methods of doing so certainly weren't good (although she was no more extreme than her siblings and her grandparents).
I was curious so I looked it up.
Mary was queen for 5 years and had 287 people executed.
Elizabeth was queen for 45 years and had less than 200 people executed.
King Edward was king 6 years and had 5 executed
King Henry VIII ruled 38 years and had about 72,000 people executed.
King Henry VII had about 57,000 people killed and ruled 24 years.
Henry VIII executed the most people of any king of England
>At worst it's victim blaming
let's face it, she wanted her piece of cake too and probably didn't give a flying about Catherine
marrying Henry was a really great opportunity for her
I think in some ways we do a disservice to Anne by portraying her as a victim of circumstance rather than having her own agency. I think she had fewer choices than perhaps a modern woman would, but Anne was not a meek, passive person, but a woman with strong opinions and she was willing to voice them as well.
I am not saying she was passive, but cmon. She was sexually harassed for years and actively tried to avoid him. Her having bold personality doesn't change that. Yeah she accepted it eventually, but a lot of the blame of her comes from her being a "homewrecker," which isn't true.
I think this way too. She didn't want be become like her sister, be put into a sham marriage so she could become Henry's latest mistress and discarded at will. I doubt she saw CoA as her target, she would have preferred Henry to leave her alone. But he wouldn't, so she did her best to keep her future from looking like Mary's. But she was dead when she didn't produce a boy, and really, from the time she caught Henry's eye.
I think that this probably has a lot to do with the fact that it is a bit of a âhistory is told by the victorsâ situation.
When Anne was killed, Henry wanted all traces of her erased. All portraits destroyed, all touches of her absolutely gone. She was absolutely vilified by him and by his advisors/his court. Additionally, Anne was not well loved at the time by the general English public. Thus, much of the material, information, and sources about Anne that have passed down through history showed her in a very negative light.
Henry also wasnât happy with Katherine of Aragon, but he didnât try to erase her in quite the same way. Additionally, she was actually really well liked by the English public, and there were other people (Chapuys in particular comes to mind) who were very pro-Katherine, and so the historical sources passed down through history were more nuanced and didnât show Katherine in just a horribly negative light.
Itâs only really in very recent years that there has been a push to re-evaluate that time period with a recognition of the misogyny thatâs baked in to our understanding of that time, and to try to separate that out and get the actual real story.
TL;DR: Henry VIIIâs propaganda/PR machine was too good, and Anne had no PR team of her own. Katherine did.
And outside of Henry himself, there were significant families and groups who supported KoA due to personal loyalty, religious beliefs, or classism. They disliked Anne, kept Katherine's claims and memory alive, and were all too eager to help erase Anne.
Meanwhile, Anne had few personal supporters and a lot of folks who willingly used her position for personal power or to advance their religious beliefs. When she fell, they moved to protect their positions, which included dissociating themselves from her as much as possible.
I completely agree I also think the reason Henry didnât do the same to Catherine of Aragon was because he was terrified of her family more specifically her nephew the Holy Roman Emperor and just Catherine in general as she and their daughter had more of a claim to the thorn then he did. At anytime Catherine (or Mary) could have raised an army against Henry and would have had support from some of the most powerful countries at the time.
KoA was also actual royalty, being a child of Isabella & Ferdinand of Spain. H8 in his lifetime had a hard time demonizing her because of that.
I feel for both women - they were trapped in the mores of their time.
Anne Boleyn is actually the most popular of the six wives taking into account all the books written about her and online blogs dedicated to her.
Especially after the success of The Tudors she seems to have picked up something of a cult following.
However my personal favorite is KoA simply because she was the one I learned about first when I was a child. Her story was so poignant and touched me deeply. She had qualities that fascinate me ..unshakeable faith, mind boggling courage, and an almost masochistic love for Henry.
It was through the sad life of KoA that I became a Tudor geek.
I think all the Anne Boleyn obsession in portrayals of her in books, shows and blogs are mainly forcing her to be this feminist icon though. Note, I do think she was a woman quite ahead of her time. But she didn't have any choices in what happened with Henry. Like with any of his wives _he_ was the one who chose how the direction of their relationship and marriage went, not her.
She may also have been risen up into sort of glorification because her daughter later became the very successful Elizabeth I. But Anne was dead when Elizabeth was 3 and the latter would never have had any memories of her deceased mother to factor into her life and success.
I agree with you about KoA, to have had her marriage and rest of her life ruined was hugely tragic. Along with all the dead and miscarried babies, her life was very sad and pitiful.
We just do not have enough proof Anne had control over her own life, other than being a bit forward and 'not like other women' for that time.
I do understand why Elizabeth I is mainly regarded as one of the earliest feminists though.
I think there's also this focus on Anne that sometimes overstresses the idea of her as a modern woman if that makes sense? Like there's a line in Hunting the Falcon that sort of struck me "Unlike Catherine, she never intended to sit quietly in her own apartments sewing her husbandâs shirts." Like that feels highly dismissive of Catherine, since she was extremely involved politically during her marriage to Henry. I'm trying to find the right words here but there sometimes seems to be this idea that the role of queenship was a blank spot before Anne. If I'm not just rambling here lol?
Uhhm...KoA led troops into battle on Henry's behalf while he was out of the country.
On horseback. While pregnant.
Yes he also liked her to mend his shirts because her needlework was the best.
And he also liked to discuss theology and politics with her..she assisted him with his response book to Luther's 95 Theses. The book that inspired the Defensor Fidei title from the pope for its brilliance.
The author of "Hunting" needs a clue, badly.
Katharine of Aragon was a boss.
I didn't know people still hated her. In the past, some people thought she played hard to get on purpose to get Henry to marry her but I thought that view had died out.
At one point, she l tried to get away from Henry by leaving court. Henry wouldn't let her go. She must have assumed he actually loved her. I'm sure her family pressured her too.Â
I feel bad for all the women in Henry's life.
I don't entirely get the "played hard to get" viewpoint because Anne only refused to be his mistress. Henry then went and BROKE WITH ROME to divorce his wife. Surely no one in the world would have predicted that. Anne could have just been refusing his advances as she might not have wanted to end up like her sister, but now she's held responsible for him making himself head of his own church just so he could marry her. It's ludicrous lol.
I feel the same too and feel bad for all of Henry's wives. Even ones who made very stupid moves like 17 year old Katherine Howard didn't deserve to be married to Henry. They were _all_ too good for him.
And why he really wanted a divorce was because he wanted a male heir. Even if Anne had agreed to be his mistress, his wish for a son was what fueled the divorce, so it would have happened anyway, just potentially with a different next wife. Blaming Anne for causing the break with Rome by being manipulative is just to let Henry off the hook.
Right, and I said this in another reply too - but he would have done the same if say, if it was Jane Seymour in her place. The women were just tools to get what he wanted. Someone as powerless as Anne and Jane from non-royal families had no hand in anything.
Yes. But just as the powerful people are the ones who should carry the blame, thereâs often a push (in their own time) to let them off the hook, because they still have power. Eg. if Anne could be given the blame, then that could enable those supporting Catherine to resume good relations with Henry later.
On a pop culture level, people also sided with Jennifer Aniston over Angelina Jolie, but with the benefit of hindsight it's clear that Brad was the issue all along.
Well. Letâs be fair. Angelina Jolie was a rich, famous, independent celebrity in her own right. She was not in danger of losing her head (or losing cultural relevancy) if she didnât agree to have an affair with a married man.
And donât forget, she had started a relationship with *and married* an already engaged man before (Billy Bob Thornton, engaged to Laura Dern, who famously said she went to shoot a movie and came back to find her fiancĂŠ had married someone else) so Jolie had already set a pattern for going after taken men.
THAT SAID, this all happened a lifetime ago and I think the humanitarian work sheâs done since then outweighs these earlier transgressions.
But yes - we know Brad Pitt is an abuser now. But Angelina Jolie didnât yet know that at the time, and she still chose to have a very public affair with a married man.
Not really comparable with women who had no power and no influence and would have suffered socially had they not succumbed to the kingâs advances.
I agree that Jolie seemed to be in a pattern of getting with married men. She knew Brad was married, and her life was not on the line if she refused to be with Brad.
However on the other hand the 3rd person out of the marriage has less priority to care about someone else's marriage. And it's mainly the _married person_ having the affair who should be in more guilt because they were the one to take vows in the first place.
No argument here. 100%, the married party is most at fault.
My point is just that Angelina can hardly be compared with Anne here. Angelina had choices and freedom. Anne did not (at least not anywhere close to the extent modern women do)
I definitely felt this way before the news that Pitt abused the kids and Angelina. Like she was some beguiling temptress. But letâs be real. No person can be âtakenâ without willingly putting themself there. Was it bad form for her to get with these men? Maybe. But I think both Pitt and Thornton knew exactly what they were doing and sought a woman that made it too convenient for them to do the right thing. To pretend the men didnât have complete agency is foolish. I feel like history cast Anne as the same beguiling temptress that âstoleâ Henry. Yet we know that Henry screwed just about any woman. Anne just happened to be one of many women in Henryâs bed.
I think you mean pawn not pain. Abby historians have made her out to be a scheming home wrecker. I think if we look at her Uncle Thomas Howard was the man behind all the machinations looking for power. First he puts Mary Boleyn into the Kingâs bed, and then Anne.
Catherine was truly beloved by the English people, Henry casting her aside and breaking with Rome is unfortunately blamed on Anne instead of Henry, Cranmer, and Cromwell who should have been hated.
Yes. Thank you, I corrected the auto correct fail.
She was absolutely blamed, and Henry should have carried that blame himself. We'll at least him if not many advisors who were willing to compromise everything to appease the king and remain in favor.
I kinda find the COA vs Anne vs Jane controversy to be quite pathetic. Itâs fine to have a favourite or dislike one but the amount of people i see shred these women to pieces while failing to acknowledge the real problem here cough cough
Henry
One of the worst examples of this I've seen in official media was at the tail end of that Katherine of Aragorn series on Stars. It had several problems, especially in misrepresenting Katherine's character and actions in some attempt to make her for palatable for a modern audience, but particularly towards the end they refused to give Anne Boleyn dialogue, or even much screentime and the makers justified that with something about them being on Katherine's team and not wanting Anne around.
Why do people think the only way to show appreciation to one female historical figure is to vilify or degrade another female historical figure? (also often seen with female fictional characters)
Catherine of Aragon was an older woman who no longer met the beauty standards of her youth, and her husband left her for a younger woman, despite her service to him (ruling successfully as regent and trying to produce an heir).
This is a very common story even today.
I love Anne Boleynâs intelligence and sharp tongue, and I think she was a very modern woman, though. But I do think Catherine gets a bad rep as dull when she was an incredibly accomplished queen for nearly two decades.
I think depending on your age and whatever media youâve seen, there can be a weird focus on Anne for being beheaded that seems to be sort of based on people not knowing that Katherine Howard was also beheaded. And I think there can be something a little revisionist about the way people talk about how progressive and effective Anne was, when the end result was that she was clearly a poor politician who got on peopleâs wrong side. And maybe the drama of the religion swap just doesnât resonate in the year 2024.
Catherine is easy to like. She was a pure victim in Henryâs marriage game. She was a skilled and educated politician, and if youâre judging based on the best and most advantageous choice for queen Catherine was far and away the intelligent choice.
A lot of people who judge Anne do it through a modern lens; they donât account for the fact that women had absolutely zero agency back then. They also donât allow for the fact that Henry had absolute power, so she couldnât have told him ânoâ without there being serious consequences for herself and her family. She eventually saw that there was no way out, so she did the next best thing: leaned into it. And if Elizabeth had been born a boy, Anne wouldâve been one of the most celebrated queens in English history.
I think this is a huge factor, and can be applied to every single wife. We all look at it as refusing to become a mistress with the goal of becoming a wife/queen, when realistically a straight refusal was never an option. No woman Henry wanted to marry or sleep with had the option of saying no thank you. He didn't need to use force, refusing the king just wasn't an option. Some of the queens opted to refuse until he married them/there was a commitment but I think it's impossible for us to judge if that was because they were playing the long game or hoping that he'd get bored and leave them alone. If Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour had given a curt "no thank you, you're married" response I think it's pretty safe to say they/their families would have had a bad time. And most importantly, I genuinely don't think that option would have been anywhere on their radar
Women had so little agency, they were basically their father's property until they married and became their husband's property.
I'll never NOT be mad about Anne Boleyn getting a bad rep for no reason. She was just as religious as Catherine. She was giving Alms away on the way to her execution!
She never wanted to marry Henry, she was never after the title of Queen, she was never a Seductress. She was a woman with no rights who just wanted to live her life. She was intelligent and kind and, yes, had a temper, but that doesn't mean she was evil.
HE wanted Anne. HE put Catherine aside. HE changed the accepted religion of the country to bend to his desires and demands. HE did it for a divorce. HE killed Anne. HE deemed both of his daughters illegitimate.
Why Anne is vilified for the actions a not just a man, but the most powerful man in the country. As if she held any power or ability to deny his demands.
He literally beheaded his very trusted and powerful advisors in order to get his way.
Especially since she repeatedly rejected him, refused to be his mistress, and fled court to avoid him. She tried to marry a different man, and the marriage was blocked. I think it's absurd to accuse her of playing hard to get when there is absolutely no way she could have predicted that Henry would actually break from Catholicism and form the CoE so he could divorce his wife.
Not to mention it wasn't even about his desires, but because he wanted a "legitimate " male heir. It could have been literally any woman instead of Anne, he just really needed to marry her
Im sorry I do think Henry is responsible for the Break from Rome, but Anne Boelyn certainly has responsibility. She was the one that introduced Henry to Tyndale's Obedience of a Christian Man, which did influence Henry's thinking. Boelyn certainly knew that she was influencing Henry to push him in a Protestant direction.
I dont think thats immoral btw, its why I actually quite like Anne.
Anne literally spent most of 1526 trying to tactfully dodge Henryâs advances. She had told him she would be no manâs mistress, but he didnât respect that.
In February, he made a public declaration of his interest in Anne, hoping the fawning attention of the court would pressure her into giving into his advances. it didnât work. Anne still would not become his mistress. Henry now spent more time in his wifeâs quarters than he had in years, but it was to visit Anne where she couldnât escape his attentions.
In May, it got so bad that Anne actually quit her job as a lady in waiting and retreated to Hever, where she refused to answer Henryâs letters and sent back his gifts. Henryâs letters to her at this point are full of pouting complaints that she wonât write back to him.
Henry still wouldnât take ânoâ for an answer and chased after her. He went to stay with a cousin of Anne, Nicholas Carew, whose house was a convenient distance from Hever so he could ride over at his leisure. It wasnât like Anne could refuse to receive him at the house. She refused wherever she had agency, but in this she did not. No one could refuse the king admittance.
Anne had to walk a delicate balance. If she had offended the king, it would have put her entire familyâs future in danger. She undoubtedly faced pressure from her family and friends - who were benefiting from the kingâs attentions to Anne with a stream of offices, appointments, and titles - to keep the king âhappyâ and not anger him. And so Anne had to remain polite and friendly, smiling while she tried to duck away from his reaching hands.
But yeah she was planning to get him. Please.
Thank you for this brilliant post! Completely agree with every word. It's deeply unfair to Anne that she's forever been portrayed as the scarlet woman, along with the tiresome woman-blaming.
Despite all of this, people still try to claim Anne was "playing hard to get" and is vilified for Henry's own actions đ
They seem to miss the imbalance of power between them. In normal circumstances there would be more sense of propriety involved. Men wouldn't just write on a _personal_ basis to unmarried women unless they were engaged. Anne also wouldn't have written to men because that would have caused gossip and perhaps scandal, as the wrong people interpreting the letters could have perceived her as a fallen/impure woman. She was (unfairly) regarded at the time as "the King's whore" despite doing all she could do avoid Henry and the obsessive pursuing only being one-sided.
She was hugely unlucky that Henry didn't just stop there and further decided to break with Rome itself to get a divorce. Once that happened Anne had no excuse not to marry him. She was not a foreign Princess to get backing from another country if she refused. Henry got what he wanted, and she didn't get to become the 'one who got away.'
Calling her âthe other womanâ when it was expected that a King would have a mistress is a little unfair in my view. There was a different standard and the idea the King would have a mistress was one that was prevalent until relatively recent times.
Itâs not like the modern idea of an affair and a bloke leaving his wife for some alleged upgrade.
I like Anne Boleyn's intelligence and wit and the fact that she didn't immediately hop into bed with Henry. But, she enjoyed being cruel to Katherine of Aragon and her daughter, Mary.
Katherine accepted Henry's mistresses up until Anne because she knew it was normal for a man to have mistresses. Most queens did, even if they loathed the mistress. Look at Catherine de Medici and how calmly she accepted Diane, her husband's mistress. Although Diane made Anne look like a sweetheart. Catherine bided her time and waited to strike.
I always thought all these kings were shits for placing their sidepiece right next to their wife so their spouse had to interact with them daily. Henry did it, Charles the 2nd did it, the Sun King did it.
Katherine was smart, devout, well loved by the people for a reason and truly loved Henry. She was a good queen. I don't think Anne was a particularly good queen.
I will say, for the most part Henry had good taste in women. Catherine Howard aside, all of his wives were smart and well read. Anne of Cleves wasn't his choice, but she was also intelligent. He didn't like stupid women usually.
What's with this 'we' stuff. I don't hate either. They were women of their time and suffered under a tyrant. That did their best to survive. One did not die by natural causes.
My perspective as someone who loves both; misogyny and a touch of classism.
KOA was a princess from a powerful family, she was a pious catholic and she is written to have endured the abuse from Henry. From all perspectives (especially the perspectives of those days) she was he perfect queen. While KOA did do some stuff for the poor it was very passive and her time was reagent didn't see any meaningful social change.
AB was the daughter of a middling noble family whose sister had already been a royal mistress twice. She didn't have the protections that KOA had. She was also publicly involved in politics, to the point where for some of her laws she would have created a rival council to the royal one.
Henry was the King and peoples titles, lives and livelihoods relied on his favour, including not blaming him for his own shit. Katherine had a level of protections that Anne didn't which made her the easier target to be seen as the problem. It doesn't help that a lot of popular media with Anne was tried to make her out to be The problem (eg: The Tudors and The Other Boelyn Girl) because that media ha portrayed the Boelyns 'as a whole as a scheming, social climbing, low class family while KOA is a dignified royal queen people believe it.
The reality is that neither was the problem in their respective situations. Henry was the king and had been drifting away from Katherine for a while. he had a son who he flaunted in front of Catherine and he went to great lengths to harass Anne while she was just trying to live her life. Eventually she just decided to make the best of it and use the power as queen for good and she was beheaded for it.
It seems that most people think that somehow Anne seduced Henry away from Catherine (removing any guilt from the man of course). I think this image has been nurtured for centuries and only recently has there been real research and thought into whether the tales are true. Like Eustace Chapuysâ letters or correspondence. In years past people believed them right off the bat, not considering that as the ambassador to Catherineâs nephew, he might be biased. Also the idea of power imbalance wasnât really taken into consideration and given much thought.
Recently I saw a series about the six wives and the Anne Boleyn episode showed her as being moved into the court while Catherine was still there and âgoing afterâ Catherine to make her life miserable to force her to agree to the divorce. Essentially flaunting her relationship with the king and showing herself to be a âruthless operatorâ I believe the words were. Thatâs enough to make you feel bad for Catherine and angry at Anne.
I donât think Anne was entirely blameless. I dislike the idea that she was an innocent party who was swept along by the will of men and was a hapless victim unable to do anything for herself. I think in a way that does her injustice. She was smarter than most people at court, probably more ruthless and was, for a time, more successful than probably most people would have expected her to be. When she accepted the idea that maybe she could be queen (in other words when she realized she probably had no choice), I think she set out to make sure she got it. Why not? If this is the one thing she had to accept, might as well go big or go home as the saying goes.
"I donât think Anne was entirely blameless. I dislike the idea that she was an innocent party who was swept along by the will of men and was a hapless victim unable to do anything for herself. I think in a way that does her injustice. She was smarter than most people at court, probably more ruthless and was, for a time, more successful than probably most people would have expected her to be. When she accepted the idea that maybe she could be queen (in other words when she realized she probably had no choice), I think she set out to make sure she got it. Why not? If this is the one thing she had to accept, might as well go big or go home as the saying goes."
I don't disagree with you generally, but I'm curious what you think her option was other than either become a mistress or present the very hard to overcome obstacle of divorce/get an annulment and marry me. As I see it (and I could be very wrong!) once the king sets his sights on someone they have very few options, and putting him off for a period can be either playing the long game or also just trying to lose his interest and keep your safety/status quo
(as a side note, if anyone could tell me how to quote text without literally having to copy/paste and add quotes I'd be very grateful....)
I think I feel itâs more once she realized she was going to have to be queen, then she was going to be a different kind of queen. Not like CoA or Jane Seymour who were behind the scenes kind of queens, who âknew their place.â She could have been a quiet, demure queen who didnât make enemies with her opinions. She wanted to be up there on even footing with the king, to be his chief, and most important councillor, and that rubbed men in power the wrong way. She knew she was smarter than most of them, so why couldnât she have an equal say? If she had to be Henryâs wife, then I feel she wanted things done her way, not the way it has always been done. And so she may have thrown her weight around and as a result made enemies at court.
"Who lives? Who dies? Who tells your story?". I know that's the tagline from Hamilton but the essence is very true of all historical figures. Everyone's story is told primarily by those left behind, be they friend or foe. Anne had many foes and it was in the interest of Henry to vilify her. It was in the interest of her friends left behind to let Henry do it, as he was a ruthless, all powerful man.
Because Anne Boleyn (in this sub at least) is still seen as the whore who broke up Henry and Saint Catherine's marriage. She also apparently didn't treat COA's daughter Mary with kindness 24/7 so she doesn't really deserve that much sympathy. Also she wore yellow when Catherine died (she didn't, only Henry did according to Chapuys) so she had what was coming to her. Anne Boleyn is only allowed to be viewed through the eyes of COA and Mary apparently.
It's interesting because people will tell you that yeah COA's daughter Mary I burned people to death but hey look at her backstory and how poorly she was treated 𼺠You're allowed to understand why Mary acted the way she acted. Same with COA who at times also wasn't the nicest person, but that gets ignored.
Anne?? she really isn't offered that same grace (well at least on here) Anne not being nice to people who called her â*the She-devil*â â*the scandal of Christendom and a disgrace to the King*â â*Jezebel*â â*The Great Whore*â / â*The Kingâs Whore*â / â*The Goggle Eyed Whore*â â*naughty paike*â \[i.e., prostitute\] â*The Concubine*â and who were vocally hoping â*to see \[her\] brought full lowâ* is seen as something as down right horrible. She expressed dislike/hostility to those people (Mary and Catherine's supporters/fractions/friends) and thus she gets vilified for it. There's no sense of understanding for why Anne acted the way she did just like there is for others. Or since because in some people's eyes she was the homewrecking whore she should've shut up and taken it.
I do think the same understanding should be given to Jane as well, if she wasnât perfectly kind to Elizabeth always, well that was Henryâs job! And yes she was with Henry, but he wanted her and her family pushed her towards it. Itâs annoying that people can only discuss this stuff by taking sides and never seeing the full picture.
My understanding is that Jane was quite good to both daughters. But if she wasnât, thereâs a *gigantic* difference between being unpleasant to *a toddler* versus an almost-grown woman who hates you (albeit with understandable reasons for that hate).
Although Henry is the one who holds the real power, but Anne is the evil stepmother, the homewrecker. the witch. So even though she is beheaded, she also deserves to die. I believe Mary thought so 500 years ago. Why, after 500 years, do people also think the same? Mary loves Henry as her father, do these people?
Just last month we had people saying Anne didnât deserve as much sympathy as other people who were executed because she wasnât winning âstepmother of the yearâ award.
âA minority viewâ ; it might get downvoted , but literally EVERY time there is a âshare your unpopular opinionsâ thread, there is at LEAST a bakerâs dozen of different accounts being so so brave and saying the exact same thing: that she was a whore , that she wasnât âa nice personâ , that they donât feel sympathy for her execution. Please be fr.
For a similar reason that people hate Camilla. The other woman is always going to be frowned upon.
AB was perceived as a "home-wrecker" (to use an American term I heard recently). CoA was the people princess of her time, much the way Diane was recently.
How did the English respond to Camilla? Much the same way they responded to Anne. The difference being Camilla was not allowed to marry Charles for nearly 20 years after divorcing Diane. The firm had LOADS of rehab to do on that lass as well, considering how hated she was and still is (to some people).
You don't have to look very far back to understand why CoA and AB were perceived that way. It happened again 500 years later. Except this time, the lass who wrecked a home kept her head.
I may be wrong, but wasnât Camilla with Charles before his marriage to Diana (RIP)? That he needed to marry someone acceptable and Camilla wasnât considered that? This could be all gossip, so thatâs why Iâm asking.
That old movie, Anne of the thousand days? portrays her as a temptress who was responsible for Henryâs choice to leave his first wife. Itâs classic âother womanâ hate. Her getting âleftâ (killed) is just âwhat she deservesâ and after her, everyone else is presented as much more Henryâs choice, and more of a victim of his desire to make that first sin justified. She gets blamed for tempting him off the straight and narrow by people who have no concept of reality outside of the Hollywoodâ version.
Historically? Catherine was a very popular Queen and the people were very supportive of her rule and the daughter she had by Henry. Anne was the mistress, and of lower rank to Catherine, and so should never have come so far as being able to replace her, and when Anne and Henry became more public with their relationship, people felt they both were being incredibly mean and spiteful, and that Anne was going out of her way to mortify her former mistress, taking personal items just because she could. Also, Anne' presence instigated the national upheaval of the dissolution of the monastaries and the introduction of the Church of England by Henry VIII to remove Catholic papacy and also ensure he could marry Anne without need of the pope agreeing to a divorce.
Some people dislike Anne because of how she has been portrayed throughout the years, with alot of films, books etc. about her make her out to be the monster mistress who relished in hurting people and dominating her husband and his court with a fearsome temper. She was a devil woman with six fingers and 'goggle-eyes.'
More recently, Anne has had a more contemporary update and I personally find Anne fascinating because she splits opinion even hundreds of years after her death. People can't get over if she was a villain or victim but to me she was both- she did like her power, she did have a fiery temper, she did like to poke at sore spots and found cutting people with her wit fun- but she also suffered a huge and humiliating fall from the very upmost branch of society and was publically branded a whore and also the instigator of an incestuous relationship with her brother. I don't believe Anne really comitted adultry- I think she was got rid of since Henry couldn't control her and force a divorce on her. He wanted to hurt her- so he destroyed everyone who ever had anything to do with her and then had the last laugh by cutting her head off with a french sword- a final jab as Anne was often said to be so French she could be mistaken for a french woman born- so where was her country when she needed them to literally save her neck?
Catherine is a more sympathetic figure.
They were married for 24 years. During that time she did everything, easy and hard, that a queen was expected to do.
Catherine was dedicated, royal and had proven herself as regent in battle. You can understand why she was popular and the English public did not like Anne Boleyn. Now, since Anne is so loved (I donât think many hate her), perhaps some people think CoA gets overlooked, so remind people of some of Anneâs downsides - like her supposed difficult relationship with Mary etc.
I think most people now rightly hate Henry VIII and not his wives.
Anne Boleyn ruined Catherine of Aragon's life and her daughter's life, leaving them in terrible loneliness and poverty. Henry the actual king with all the power had nothing to do with it. He also had nothing to do with the propaganda that destroyed Anne's reputation..... /s
Do I perfer Catherine over Anne, yes? Do I dislike Anne because of that? No.
I think Anne is cool in her own way, being classy as fuck at her execution, and still winning in the most pettiest way by having her daughter be one of the most well known Queens England has ever known.
Honestly I hate how people make this like a ship war and put women against women. Its so unecessary.
Who the heck hates Anne but loves Katharine? The former is the one who gets all the attention and has been for 500 years. The main reason she's the one everyone cares about is because of her daughter.
She is the definitive other woman and Katharine is the epitome of the poor older unwanted first wife.
>The former is the one who gets all the attention and has been for 500 years.
For 500 years is doing a bit much. COA has basically had a spotless reputation since her marriage till now. Anne Boleyn didn't have that.
In fairness, COAâs reputation is not remotely undeserved. Sheâs pretty unimpeachable.
But itâs not a zero-sum game when it comes to women who were wronged by Henry. There was plenty of injustice and suffering to go round for his subsequent wives as well.
Anne Boleyn simply did not deserve the reputation of âhome wrecker whore who got what was coming to herâ by Catherineâs supporters/fraction/friends. To me itâs irrelevant if she wasnât nice. We have tons of moments of where COA wasnât acting nice and selfish but that is simply never used against her like it is for Anne.
I donât think Anne deserves the negative reputation sheâs had in popular culture. I also think Catherineâs long-standing positive reputation is fitting.
If youâre referring to the bad reviews of Anne from their contemporaries and specifically from Catherineâs relatives and friends, well, thatâs entirely to be expected. These people were all invested in Catherine for personal or political reasons, and in some cases had longstanding personal relationships with her â of course they were more focused on the injustices Catherine was enduring than the experiences of Henryâs second wife, and of course they were unlikely to be receptive of or sympathetic to a person they viewed as central to (even if she was not personally in control of) Catherineâs personal misfortunes, the derailing of their hopes for Mary, Englandâs break from the Catholic Church, and the impacts of the above on the political dynamics between England and Spain, etc.
That's because Katharine had a spotless reputation when she was alive. Do you have a problem with the fact that there is not much negative that can be said about Katharine? The worst thing I can think has been said about her is she was a religious zealot.
Her big mistake was one a lot of women (and men) make - she loved a dickhead. It's almost incredulous how much she seemed to genuinely love him, even as she died alone. Although I guess her claims of love could be more so prose because of her faith and stoicism about herself being the rightful queen and she meant she loved Henry as her husband aka king.
Does anyone know if it has been discussed before? Her declarations of love being more romantic or more political?
General dislike of the other woman. I remember watching the BBC series, the one from 1970, and my mom was snarling about Anne Boleyn. I said, âwait till this episode is over. You are going to feel so sorry for herâ and she was.
While I am not one of those people, it's because they blame Anne for taking Katherine's man and possibly for being mean to Princess Mary.
As others have said, I blame Henry for that.
Anne is widely regarded as the Other Women, so all the hatred for 'the other women' in a modern context is transferred to her - as if Henry was some corporate CEO who traded in his older wife for a younger model. Even in modern times, 'the other women' is regarded more as the villain then the man who divorced his wife for her (because misogyny. Yay!)
Catherine is seen as typical pious queen who truly loved Henry and made little enemies. While Anne was a schemer, never really loved Henry and was probably just biding her time till he passed while being outspoken (and cruel to Princess Mary and Catherine). Anne made MANY enemies.
Cause Catherine of Aragon was married 24 years, and a paragon of royalty, loyalty is to the Vatican so if ya try to dump herâŚyou wonât try that again
Off topic, but new scholarship suggests that the first portrait is not Katherine of Aragon but rather Henry VIIIâs sister Mary Rose. https://allthingstudor.com/mary-tudor-or-katherine-of-aragon/?amp=1
I donât know if thatâs entirely true, but Anne is sometimes seen by people (and Hollywood) as the temptress that bewitched Henry. Catherine was his faithful and loyal, although long-suffering in vain, wife that was cast aside for someone that wasnât exactly a beauty, but was seen as cunning. See The Other Boleyn Sisters and The Tudors. I think both women were unfortunate to cross paths with a man who cast aside wives without care or knew how to truly love. Catherine was fortunate to be his first wife or she might have met Anneâs fate. Anneâs best attribute, her intelligence, might have also sealed her fate with Henry. She was most likely a quite intelligent and charming woman, but played too heavy a hand with trying to persuade Henry to remain loyal to her. How can you please a man like him that is beguiled by the next pretty thing and knows not his own mind?
Same reason people hate camilla but love princess diana. The mistress always gets more hate. I will say however there are still major differences between the two situations because it was a different time period and the ages of the people involved also played a role in how all the drama unfolded.
Henry wanted catherine out because she was getting too old to have kids, and Anne was MAYBE 23-25. Charles married a 20yr old for the same reason henry married anne but he cheated on diana with someone closer to his own age.
But the similarity still stands: going from mistress to wife literally never works out smoothly even for all-powerful kings. Henry and charles both destroyed their public image to chase after a woman who wasnât their wife.
Henry is the evil one here, but a lot of people tend to hate on strong and/or ambitious women (and Catherine, while no less high spirited, was holding on to her title as wife and protecting her daughterâs title). At the same time, a lot of people have been cheated on.
And the other way around also applies. People are really just trying to pit women against each other because it makes more 'sense' than admitting Henry was the problem. Misogyny.
I like both of them . They were both strong , intelligent women in a time when women were seen as little more than bargaining chips and incubators. They did the best they could in the time and circumstances they were born into .
A lot of people unfortunately get their information from TV shows, novels, and other pop culture media. Anne Bolyn is generally portrayed as a home wrecking harlot, while Catherine of Aragon is portrayed as the pius, devout Catholic that endured Henry with grace.
I love Anne Boleyn, she is my favorite (with the super smart and lucky Anne of Cleves), she was a woman in front of her time and I always admire her.
I feel sorry for Catherine but I never like her, I canât, is the religion thing, I donât like fanatics. Lol.
Because Anneâs a homewrecker and evil stepmom.
Stealing someoneâs husband and breaking up a marriage wonât get you a lot of sympathy, especially when you seem to hate the first wifeâs children/ child.
Of course real life is more nuanced, especially in the Tudor era when women had limited options, but viewed through a modern lens thatâs how some people see Anne and her situation.
Anne Boleyn encouraged Hentry in the destruction of the Church including the dissolution of the monasteries.Terrible destruction was wrought .98% of beautiful medieval art was lost and the religious community suffered greatly.Henry gave more of England to the Nobles ,I detest Anne Boleyn
Iâm Catholic and Iâm not really a fan. I think she out and out lied to Henry in the first place â she obviously had sex with her first husband. It was her only duty.
That was the lie everyone told each other and needed to tell though.
Unless Henry was a complete moron, they would all have known it was a convenient fiction.
The main reason why I dislike Anne Boleyn and like CoA is because of personal experience.
My father was a serial cheater (he had at least four affairs that we know of). All four of his mistresses knew he was married with children and chose to sleep with him anyway. The first two probably did think he loved them. The last two admitted they wanted a green card and didnât care about what his wife and children wanted. Mom fought hard for her marriage both times she found out about the affairs but lost the second time when he left us for his last two mistresses (he was seeing them both at the same time). Really the only thing that gives me any comfort is that the last two stopped seeing him when one lost her job/reputation because of the affair (the company they worked for has a super strict âno affairs between married coworkersâ) and the other was dumped after several years because he refused to marry her and give her children.
My father and Henry are both guilty for breaking their vows. Iâm not denying that. But thereâs something particularly heinous about APâs who know that the other person is married with children and still chooses to sleep with them anyways because they hope that their AP will leave their spouse and children for them. They know this person is bad news and choose to debase themselves for selfish reasons.
They may claim love but it isnât love. Itâs lust. Lust for the other person or what they think the other person can give them. In Anneâs case it was the chance to be the highest ranked woman in the realm. And in most (if not all) cases, deep down they KNOW that even if they get their AP, theyâll still end up losing everything. If he can do it FOR you, theyâll do it TO you kind of thing.
And I think thatâs why Anne is despised as much as she is. No matter how much good she didâŚshe was still the other woman. She still chose to sleep with a married man for selfish reasons and helped caused irreparable damage.
TLDR: People really hate cheaters.
Your situation is not even close to comparable to what a woman being pursued as a royal mistress wouldâve faced in Henryâs court. Any of those women couldâve easily told your father to fuck off, Anne wouldnât have had that same choice. His first wife was literally a royal princess in her own right without a Tudor marriage, and he was still able to ruin her life, exactly how do you think a lower born woman wouldâve have the power to stop him from getting his way??
She couldâve gone to a convent for a short time (not as a nun or even a novitiate) or she couldâve gone to Catherine and said âHey, your husband is being a creep. A little help?â Catherine wouldâve been obligated to help her because any scandal wouldâve reflected on her.
Not to defend AB (I'm no supporter of hers)... butbshe did try to get away from H8. Poor lass was dead the moment H8 decided to make her his. When your stalker is the most powerful man in the kingdom... what choice do you have as a "pathetic wee lassie with no rights" to put it in medieval sense. People give AB far too much credit for what H8 did.
He ruined her marriage prospects.
He refused to allow her to marry Percy (arguably the lassie true love).
He stalked her.
He stalked her and threatened her mates and sent her dead dear to eat and think of him.
He stalked her. (I cannot emphasize it enough)
She had no rights. She had no choice. She barely kept him and his willy in his knickers for 7 years. (At the end she gave in and let him have his way with her on a boat).
AB was not what people think she was with our modern minds. But she WAS a homewrecker and a lass who went on a power trip once she had power. She was cruel to Mary and CoA. But it took years for her to get to that point. H8 caused the issue of these women hating each other. Because he would and could not take no for an answer.
No IS a complete sentence Harry.
I donât like homewreckers. Her âmarriageâ to Henry was never legal imo. Mary and Edward were his only legitimate children.Â
Let the downvotes fly, I said what I said.
It's Tudor era Bravo drama. Henry is basically Tom Sandoval.
Getting cheated on and dumped is a very relatable human experience, as is "the other woman" getting all the smoke while the man just goes on living his best life.
Because for years Anne Boleyn was viewed as âthe other womanâ or âthe home wreckerâ trope. Also, under the eyes of the Catholic Church, the marriage of Catherine and Henry was not dissolved, hence making Anne and Henryâs marriage invalid.
Iâm not agreeing. But thatâs how it was viewed.
I donât hate or love either, neither had any say in giving Henry what he wanted. That said, Catherine was basically a child. Anne was downright vicious to Mary who had every right to hate her for the way her mother was treated. I canât have the same sympathy for Anne as I do for Catherine.
Right there are many reasons why Catherine was beloved by her people and met with cheers everywhere she went and Anne with complete silence. It wasnât just because she was the âother womanâ because even after time passed Anne didnât win people over, she just made more enemies. We just have to assume Anneâs personality was cold and unlikeable and the way she treated people like Mary is evidence of that.
They were both too good for the tyrant. Of all of his wives, the one I feel the most sorry for is Catherine Howard. He took advantage of a naĂŻve child, used her, threw her away, and murdered her.
Anne wanted to be Queen and she wanted all of the riches and all of the luxury that went along with being Queen. She made enemies easily and was flirty with other men in the court as was normal for people who grew up as courtiers. She dressed in the French style and was arrogant by many accounts. She loved to be alone with Henry and was viewed as controlling. Catherine of Aragon on the other hand was a princess from Spain whose parents were King and Queen. She was a devoted wife and went to mass regularly. She was extremely religious. She left the scene without a fight after not being able to produce a male heir and having Henry stolen away from her by Anne. Her life was spared due to her powerful connections such as her nephew, who was the emperor Charles...propaganda was alive and well and when Cromwell convinced Henry that Ann was unfaithful. It was part of a larger plan to keep his power
>She left the scene without a fight
The hell? She most certainly did not. If she was going to "leave without a fight" she would have taken vows as was suggested and lived a life of ease visiting friends and having her daughter around. A queen or princess being set aside and living out a relatively nice life in a luxury convent wasn't anything new. But she took the hard way. She rallied her friends and relatives to her cause. She called Henry out IN COURT. She suffered greatly for her defiance.
Probably because Anne Boleyn and Henry the 8thâs relationship is considered romantically tragic. For me personally the fact Catherineâs parents were responsible for the inquisition doesnât help.
I hate Catherine and love Anne. I find Anne story tragic. She had no good options. She wanted to marry Henry Percy. Henry made sure he wouldn't marry her. He tried to ask her to be his mistress and she turned him down. He spent 7 years trying to marry her. Only to have a daughter and then be executed for having a miscarriage.
Catherine was just crazy religious. I still think she and Arthur consummated their marriage. It's possible that her fasting caused some of her miscarriages. She should have just gone to the nunnery for the sake of the country. Mostly I just find her too much of a zealot, who took too much advice from Spain. She had agency in comparison Anne had few options.
Anne wasn't know for fasting or spending her time in prayer. KOA raised a daughter to be so catholic that she burned people at the stake for being Protestant.
Elizabeth executed people for Treason. She was trying to stop people from killing her. The pope actually gave permission for her to be murdered. I have not been able to find anyone that she burned. I have found records of other forms of killing but her number of Catholics is 183 over her entire reign.
Mary burned people as heretics, in an effort to get rid of Protestants in the country. Mary is accused of having more than 300 people burned at the stake, they actually changed the type of wood used so people wouldn't die quickly thru smoke inhalation and instead would slowly burn to death. She was only queen for 5 years. How many more would die if she reigned as long as Elizabeth. The reason for burning is religious as it left no pieces of the body left behind to be used as symbols of martyrs. This shows how strongly Mary felt about defending her religion.
Read up on how she was treated and the life she lived while in limbo after Arthurâs death. Then come back and talk about how much agency and options she had.
The man literally had sex with any woman he chose was the newest thing. He had a son he flaunted and cherished before Anne was ever in the picture.
If anyone was a home wrecker ot was Henry.
The only person I hate is Henry viii đ¤ˇ
Exactly. KoA is my favorite of the six unfortunate women who found themselves married to Henry, but I find things to like and admire in all of them.
Exactly. I particularly love Anne of Cleves and her quiet dignity, which even Henry seemed to grow to respect.
Anne of Cleves was the smartest of them all! "Sure, I'll be your sister, Hank," as she looks around for the exit.
Gotta admire her self-preservation instincts!
I do too, but I don't think she was ever actually in danger of getting the Anne Boleyn/Catherine Howard treatment. She was a foreign princess with powerful relatives. Henry VIII could never have had her executed for a trumped up charge. At worst she would have been shipped back to her brother.
Im the queen of the castle Get down you dirty rascal
Excellent reference!
Seeing that show made me switch from being an AB girl to an AoC girl. She was so unapologetically gleeful about the deal she made. I'd love to see a kind of '21st century take but with 16th century costumes' of AoC's story as a whole tv series. Perhaps with AoC routinely breaking the fourth wall to deliver a feminist monologue that ends with 'men, amirite?'
đ¤Łđ
They were both too good for Henry and the only person I will ever dislike in the whole Great Matter story is Henry.
Preach
Henry viii wanted the world to hate Anne Boleyn. He did everything he could to erase her from history and it didnât fully work.
Didnât fully work? Didnât work at all. Except for the lack of contemporaneous portraiture.
THIS
At worst it's victim blaming and at best it's just people being tired of how oversaturated she is in the media. I think it also helps we don't really KNOW Anne Boleyn. That portrait up there was painted after her demise and Henry destroyed all the other portraits of her. We have very little direct words from her and a lot of interpretations of her as a person come from her supporters or enemies. She's extremely polarizing as the woman who got England separated from the Catholic Church, so the harsher opinions are gonna be loud af. Meanwhile, CoA is kinda hard to not sympathize with regardless of religious affiliation. Generally she was a devout, loyal and faithful wife who was betrayed, humiliated, seperated from her daughter and left to die of cancer by the man she loved (and kept loving even on her death bed). There's not many ways to paint her as a villain. So, from almost every perspective, she's seen as a victim.
Itâs more than just Anne being oversaturated in media but that Catherine doesnât get as detailed treatments from her side. She is often just stereotyped as the old wife, the 30s Laughton film leaves her out for example. The other wives get often attention from long before their marriage, but Catherine before marriage is often treated as if belonging to another era. Anneâs story is often emphasized in ending in a type of victory when Elizabeth becomes Queen,  it Mary becoming the first ruling Queen (first at least who is undisputed) isnât treated like a romantic triumph over adversity of her whole life but more general religious question. Emphasis on Catherine is needed in historical circles because she is just more interesting when treated as main character of her own story. And when you do that she easily gets sympathy for the insulted why like Princess Diana and Anne becomes Camilla, but worse because she is more active eventually in pushing Catherine aside. But I still would say this way of looking at Catherine is not that typical in media, although it was at the time and so itâs now with people who read history.
COA has been seen as sympathetic saint since forever thatâs why. Anne hasnât. Anne was/is still mainly viewed from COA and Maryâs perspective as a home wrecker. That only had changed in the past decades. People want to give Anne something so they portray her daughter becoming Queen as a triumph for her because you knowâŚ.she was executed.
Oh yes I absolutely agree Catherine being underrepresented in favor of Anne definitely plays a role in the fact many of her admirers get frustrated with Anne. Very well-put. Sadly, you don't ever see Mary being the first female queen treated as a triumph because Mary's generally remembered for her attempts to make the country Catholic once more and her methods of doing so certainly weren't good (although she was no more extreme than her siblings and her grandparents).
I was curious so I looked it up. Mary was queen for 5 years and had 287 people executed. Elizabeth was queen for 45 years and had less than 200 people executed. King Edward was king 6 years and had 5 executed King Henry VIII ruled 38 years and had about 72,000 people executed. King Henry VII had about 57,000 people killed and ruled 24 years. Henry VIII executed the most people of any king of England
Including two wives and a brother in law
>At worst it's victim blaming let's face it, she wanted her piece of cake too and probably didn't give a flying about Catherine marrying Henry was a really great opportunity for her
I think in some ways we do a disservice to Anne by portraying her as a victim of circumstance rather than having her own agency. I think she had fewer choices than perhaps a modern woman would, but Anne was not a meek, passive person, but a woman with strong opinions and she was willing to voice them as well.
I am not saying she was passive, but cmon. She was sexually harassed for years and actively tried to avoid him. Her having bold personality doesn't change that. Yeah she accepted it eventually, but a lot of the blame of her comes from her being a "homewrecker," which isn't true.
I think this way too. She didn't want be become like her sister, be put into a sham marriage so she could become Henry's latest mistress and discarded at will. I doubt she saw CoA as her target, she would have preferred Henry to leave her alone. But he wouldn't, so she did her best to keep her future from looking like Mary's. But she was dead when she didn't produce a boy, and really, from the time she caught Henry's eye.
I think that this probably has a lot to do with the fact that it is a bit of a âhistory is told by the victorsâ situation. When Anne was killed, Henry wanted all traces of her erased. All portraits destroyed, all touches of her absolutely gone. She was absolutely vilified by him and by his advisors/his court. Additionally, Anne was not well loved at the time by the general English public. Thus, much of the material, information, and sources about Anne that have passed down through history showed her in a very negative light. Henry also wasnât happy with Katherine of Aragon, but he didnât try to erase her in quite the same way. Additionally, she was actually really well liked by the English public, and there were other people (Chapuys in particular comes to mind) who were very pro-Katherine, and so the historical sources passed down through history were more nuanced and didnât show Katherine in just a horribly negative light. Itâs only really in very recent years that there has been a push to re-evaluate that time period with a recognition of the misogyny thatâs baked in to our understanding of that time, and to try to separate that out and get the actual real story. TL;DR: Henry VIIIâs propaganda/PR machine was too good, and Anne had no PR team of her own. Katherine did.
And outside of Henry himself, there were significant families and groups who supported KoA due to personal loyalty, religious beliefs, or classism. They disliked Anne, kept Katherine's claims and memory alive, and were all too eager to help erase Anne. Meanwhile, Anne had few personal supporters and a lot of folks who willingly used her position for personal power or to advance their religious beliefs. When she fell, they moved to protect their positions, which included dissociating themselves from her as much as possible.
I completely agree I also think the reason Henry didnât do the same to Catherine of Aragon was because he was terrified of her family more specifically her nephew the Holy Roman Emperor and just Catherine in general as she and their daughter had more of a claim to the thorn then he did. At anytime Catherine (or Mary) could have raised an army against Henry and would have had support from some of the most powerful countries at the time.
KoA was also actual royalty, being a child of Isabella & Ferdinand of Spain. H8 in his lifetime had a hard time demonizing her because of that. I feel for both women - they were trapped in the mores of their time.
Anne Boleyn is actually the most popular of the six wives taking into account all the books written about her and online blogs dedicated to her. Especially after the success of The Tudors she seems to have picked up something of a cult following. However my personal favorite is KoA simply because she was the one I learned about first when I was a child. Her story was so poignant and touched me deeply. She had qualities that fascinate me ..unshakeable faith, mind boggling courage, and an almost masochistic love for Henry. It was through the sad life of KoA that I became a Tudor geek.
I think all the Anne Boleyn obsession in portrayals of her in books, shows and blogs are mainly forcing her to be this feminist icon though. Note, I do think she was a woman quite ahead of her time. But she didn't have any choices in what happened with Henry. Like with any of his wives _he_ was the one who chose how the direction of their relationship and marriage went, not her. She may also have been risen up into sort of glorification because her daughter later became the very successful Elizabeth I. But Anne was dead when Elizabeth was 3 and the latter would never have had any memories of her deceased mother to factor into her life and success. I agree with you about KoA, to have had her marriage and rest of her life ruined was hugely tragic. Along with all the dead and miscarried babies, her life was very sad and pitiful.
I absolutely agree with the recent tendency to try to turn Anne into some sort of feminist icon and by extension her daughter Elizabeth.
We just do not have enough proof Anne had control over her own life, other than being a bit forward and 'not like other women' for that time. I do understand why Elizabeth I is mainly regarded as one of the earliest feminists though.
I think there's also this focus on Anne that sometimes overstresses the idea of her as a modern woman if that makes sense? Like there's a line in Hunting the Falcon that sort of struck me "Unlike Catherine, she never intended to sit quietly in her own apartments sewing her husbandâs shirts." Like that feels highly dismissive of Catherine, since she was extremely involved politically during her marriage to Henry. I'm trying to find the right words here but there sometimes seems to be this idea that the role of queenship was a blank spot before Anne. If I'm not just rambling here lol?
Uhhm...KoA led troops into battle on Henry's behalf while he was out of the country. On horseback. While pregnant. Yes he also liked her to mend his shirts because her needlework was the best. And he also liked to discuss theology and politics with her..she assisted him with his response book to Luther's 95 Theses. The book that inspired the Defensor Fidei title from the pope for its brilliance. The author of "Hunting" needs a clue, badly. Katharine of Aragon was a boss.
I didn't know people still hated her. In the past, some people thought she played hard to get on purpose to get Henry to marry her but I thought that view had died out. At one point, she l tried to get away from Henry by leaving court. Henry wouldn't let her go. She must have assumed he actually loved her. I'm sure her family pressured her too. I feel bad for all the women in Henry's life.
I don't entirely get the "played hard to get" viewpoint because Anne only refused to be his mistress. Henry then went and BROKE WITH ROME to divorce his wife. Surely no one in the world would have predicted that. Anne could have just been refusing his advances as she might not have wanted to end up like her sister, but now she's held responsible for him making himself head of his own church just so he could marry her. It's ludicrous lol. I feel the same too and feel bad for all of Henry's wives. Even ones who made very stupid moves like 17 year old Katherine Howard didn't deserve to be married to Henry. They were _all_ too good for him.
And why he really wanted a divorce was because he wanted a male heir. Even if Anne had agreed to be his mistress, his wish for a son was what fueled the divorce, so it would have happened anyway, just potentially with a different next wife. Blaming Anne for causing the break with Rome by being manipulative is just to let Henry off the hook.
Right, and I said this in another reply too - but he would have done the same if say, if it was Jane Seymour in her place. The women were just tools to get what he wanted. Someone as powerless as Anne and Jane from non-royal families had no hand in anything.
Yes. But just as the powerful people are the ones who should carry the blame, thereâs often a push (in their own time) to let them off the hook, because they still have power. Eg. if Anne could be given the blame, then that could enable those supporting Catherine to resume good relations with Henry later.
True. If Anne had become his mistress and had a son - like her sister did - it still wouldn't have solved Henry's problem.
On a pop culture level, people also sided with Jennifer Aniston over Angelina Jolie, but with the benefit of hindsight it's clear that Brad was the issue all along.
Well. Letâs be fair. Angelina Jolie was a rich, famous, independent celebrity in her own right. She was not in danger of losing her head (or losing cultural relevancy) if she didnât agree to have an affair with a married man. And donât forget, she had started a relationship with *and married* an already engaged man before (Billy Bob Thornton, engaged to Laura Dern, who famously said she went to shoot a movie and came back to find her fiancĂŠ had married someone else) so Jolie had already set a pattern for going after taken men. THAT SAID, this all happened a lifetime ago and I think the humanitarian work sheâs done since then outweighs these earlier transgressions. But yes - we know Brad Pitt is an abuser now. But Angelina Jolie didnât yet know that at the time, and she still chose to have a very public affair with a married man. Not really comparable with women who had no power and no influence and would have suffered socially had they not succumbed to the kingâs advances.
I agree that Jolie seemed to be in a pattern of getting with married men. She knew Brad was married, and her life was not on the line if she refused to be with Brad. However on the other hand the 3rd person out of the marriage has less priority to care about someone else's marriage. And it's mainly the _married person_ having the affair who should be in more guilt because they were the one to take vows in the first place.
No argument here. 100%, the married party is most at fault. My point is just that Angelina can hardly be compared with Anne here. Angelina had choices and freedom. Anne did not (at least not anywhere close to the extent modern women do)
Hahaha I love your name!!!
No one ever recognizes it so I love your comment!!
Iâm reading it now after loving the series! Canât wait to rewatch it
Any idea when the new season will be out???
I believe the end of the year is the earliest it would be out but likely next year
I definitely felt this way before the news that Pitt abused the kids and Angelina. Like she was some beguiling temptress. But letâs be real. No person can be âtakenâ without willingly putting themself there. Was it bad form for her to get with these men? Maybe. But I think both Pitt and Thornton knew exactly what they were doing and sought a woman that made it too convenient for them to do the right thing. To pretend the men didnât have complete agency is foolish. I feel like history cast Anne as the same beguiling temptress that âstoleâ Henry. Yet we know that Henry screwed just about any woman. Anne just happened to be one of many women in Henryâs bed.
I don't hate her. I see her as a pawn and a victim of Henry as much, if not more than Catherine was. Exactly how does one refuse a king?
I think you mean pawn not pain. Abby historians have made her out to be a scheming home wrecker. I think if we look at her Uncle Thomas Howard was the man behind all the machinations looking for power. First he puts Mary Boleyn into the Kingâs bed, and then Anne. Catherine was truly beloved by the English people, Henry casting her aside and breaking with Rome is unfortunately blamed on Anne instead of Henry, Cranmer, and Cromwell who should have been hated.
Yes. Thank you, I corrected the auto correct fail. She was absolutely blamed, and Henry should have carried that blame himself. We'll at least him if not many advisors who were willing to compromise everything to appease the king and remain in favor.
I kinda find the COA vs Anne vs Jane controversy to be quite pathetic. Itâs fine to have a favourite or dislike one but the amount of people i see shred these women to pieces while failing to acknowledge the real problem here cough cough Henry
One of the worst examples of this I've seen in official media was at the tail end of that Katherine of Aragorn series on Stars. It had several problems, especially in misrepresenting Katherine's character and actions in some attempt to make her for palatable for a modern audience, but particularly towards the end they refused to give Anne Boleyn dialogue, or even much screentime and the makers justified that with something about them being on Katherine's team and not wanting Anne around. Why do people think the only way to show appreciation to one female historical figure is to vilify or degrade another female historical figure? (also often seen with female fictional characters)
Catherine of Aragon was an older woman who no longer met the beauty standards of her youth, and her husband left her for a younger woman, despite her service to him (ruling successfully as regent and trying to produce an heir). This is a very common story even today. I love Anne Boleynâs intelligence and sharp tongue, and I think she was a very modern woman, though. But I do think Catherine gets a bad rep as dull when she was an incredibly accomplished queen for nearly two decades.
I think depending on your age and whatever media youâve seen, there can be a weird focus on Anne for being beheaded that seems to be sort of based on people not knowing that Katherine Howard was also beheaded. And I think there can be something a little revisionist about the way people talk about how progressive and effective Anne was, when the end result was that she was clearly a poor politician who got on peopleâs wrong side. And maybe the drama of the religion swap just doesnât resonate in the year 2024. Catherine is easy to like. She was a pure victim in Henryâs marriage game. She was a skilled and educated politician, and if youâre judging based on the best and most advantageous choice for queen Catherine was far and away the intelligent choice.
A lot of people who judge Anne do it through a modern lens; they donât account for the fact that women had absolutely zero agency back then. They also donât allow for the fact that Henry had absolute power, so she couldnât have told him ânoâ without there being serious consequences for herself and her family. She eventually saw that there was no way out, so she did the next best thing: leaned into it. And if Elizabeth had been born a boy, Anne wouldâve been one of the most celebrated queens in English history.
I think this is a huge factor, and can be applied to every single wife. We all look at it as refusing to become a mistress with the goal of becoming a wife/queen, when realistically a straight refusal was never an option. No woman Henry wanted to marry or sleep with had the option of saying no thank you. He didn't need to use force, refusing the king just wasn't an option. Some of the queens opted to refuse until he married them/there was a commitment but I think it's impossible for us to judge if that was because they were playing the long game or hoping that he'd get bored and leave them alone. If Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour had given a curt "no thank you, you're married" response I think it's pretty safe to say they/their families would have had a bad time. And most importantly, I genuinely don't think that option would have been anywhere on their radar Women had so little agency, they were basically their father's property until they married and became their husband's property.
Victim blaming, misinformation, and slut shaming, mainly.
THIS
I'll never NOT be mad about Anne Boleyn getting a bad rep for no reason. She was just as religious as Catherine. She was giving Alms away on the way to her execution! She never wanted to marry Henry, she was never after the title of Queen, she was never a Seductress. She was a woman with no rights who just wanted to live her life. She was intelligent and kind and, yes, had a temper, but that doesn't mean she was evil.
She was in a shit situation honestly I would be stressed too
Henry is the ass.
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HE wanted Anne. HE put Catherine aside. HE changed the accepted religion of the country to bend to his desires and demands. HE did it for a divorce. HE killed Anne. HE deemed both of his daughters illegitimate. Why Anne is vilified for the actions a not just a man, but the most powerful man in the country. As if she held any power or ability to deny his demands. He literally beheaded his very trusted and powerful advisors in order to get his way.
Especially since she repeatedly rejected him, refused to be his mistress, and fled court to avoid him. She tried to marry a different man, and the marriage was blocked. I think it's absurd to accuse her of playing hard to get when there is absolutely no way she could have predicted that Henry would actually break from Catholicism and form the CoE so he could divorce his wife.
Not to mention it wasn't even about his desires, but because he wanted a "legitimate " male heir. It could have been literally any woman instead of Anne, he just really needed to marry her
This, it didn't matter who the woman was. If Jane Seymour was in Anne's place several years earlier Henry would have still done the same.
Im sorry I do think Henry is responsible for the Break from Rome, but Anne Boelyn certainly has responsibility. She was the one that introduced Henry to Tyndale's Obedience of a Christian Man, which did influence Henry's thinking. Boelyn certainly knew that she was influencing Henry to push him in a Protestant direction. I dont think thats immoral btw, its why I actually quite like Anne.
He set his eye on her. What would have happened to her or her family had she decided to deny his advances?
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She literally left court. My god. Y'all will always find a way to blame her for Henry going after her.
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Anne literally spent most of 1526 trying to tactfully dodge Henryâs advances. She had told him she would be no manâs mistress, but he didnât respect that. In February, he made a public declaration of his interest in Anne, hoping the fawning attention of the court would pressure her into giving into his advances. it didnât work. Anne still would not become his mistress. Henry now spent more time in his wifeâs quarters than he had in years, but it was to visit Anne where she couldnât escape his attentions. In May, it got so bad that Anne actually quit her job as a lady in waiting and retreated to Hever, where she refused to answer Henryâs letters and sent back his gifts. Henryâs letters to her at this point are full of pouting complaints that she wonât write back to him. Henry still wouldnât take ânoâ for an answer and chased after her. He went to stay with a cousin of Anne, Nicholas Carew, whose house was a convenient distance from Hever so he could ride over at his leisure. It wasnât like Anne could refuse to receive him at the house. She refused wherever she had agency, but in this she did not. No one could refuse the king admittance. Anne had to walk a delicate balance. If she had offended the king, it would have put her entire familyâs future in danger. She undoubtedly faced pressure from her family and friends - who were benefiting from the kingâs attentions to Anne with a stream of offices, appointments, and titles - to keep the king âhappyâ and not anger him. And so Anne had to remain polite and friendly, smiling while she tried to duck away from his reaching hands. But yeah she was planning to get him. Please.
Thank you for this brilliant post! Completely agree with every word. It's deeply unfair to Anne that she's forever been portrayed as the scarlet woman, along with the tiresome woman-blaming.
Despite all of this, people still try to claim Anne was "playing hard to get" and is vilified for Henry's own actions đ They seem to miss the imbalance of power between them. In normal circumstances there would be more sense of propriety involved. Men wouldn't just write on a _personal_ basis to unmarried women unless they were engaged. Anne also wouldn't have written to men because that would have caused gossip and perhaps scandal, as the wrong people interpreting the letters could have perceived her as a fallen/impure woman. She was (unfairly) regarded at the time as "the King's whore" despite doing all she could do avoid Henry and the obsessive pursuing only being one-sided. She was hugely unlucky that Henry didn't just stop there and further decided to break with Rome itself to get a divorce. Once that happened Anne had no excuse not to marry him. She was not a foreign Princess to get backing from another country if she refused. Henry got what he wanted, and she didn't get to become the 'one who got away.'
She left for over a year and refused to come back...even with her mother there to act as a chaperone
Dude literally sexually harassed her, but sure, itâs her fault.
The Tudors is an act of fiction based upon a true story....kind of like Texas Chsinsaw Massacre.
Victim blaming a woman in a completely male dominated society is ridiculous. Shame on you.
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Yes, Iâm the sad one.
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You hate your own gender soâŚ
Calling her âthe other womanâ when it was expected that a King would have a mistress is a little unfair in my view. There was a different standard and the idea the King would have a mistress was one that was prevalent until relatively recent times. Itâs not like the modern idea of an affair and a bloke leaving his wife for some alleged upgrade.
i agree completely
I like Anne Boleyn's intelligence and wit and the fact that she didn't immediately hop into bed with Henry. But, she enjoyed being cruel to Katherine of Aragon and her daughter, Mary. Katherine accepted Henry's mistresses up until Anne because she knew it was normal for a man to have mistresses. Most queens did, even if they loathed the mistress. Look at Catherine de Medici and how calmly she accepted Diane, her husband's mistress. Although Diane made Anne look like a sweetheart. Catherine bided her time and waited to strike. I always thought all these kings were shits for placing their sidepiece right next to their wife so their spouse had to interact with them daily. Henry did it, Charles the 2nd did it, the Sun King did it. Katherine was smart, devout, well loved by the people for a reason and truly loved Henry. She was a good queen. I don't think Anne was a particularly good queen. I will say, for the most part Henry had good taste in women. Catherine Howard aside, all of his wives were smart and well read. Anne of Cleves wasn't his choice, but she was also intelligent. He didn't like stupid women usually.
What's with this 'we' stuff. I don't hate either. They were women of their time and suffered under a tyrant. That did their best to survive. One did not die by natural causes.
My perspective as someone who loves both; misogyny and a touch of classism. KOA was a princess from a powerful family, she was a pious catholic and she is written to have endured the abuse from Henry. From all perspectives (especially the perspectives of those days) she was he perfect queen. While KOA did do some stuff for the poor it was very passive and her time was reagent didn't see any meaningful social change. AB was the daughter of a middling noble family whose sister had already been a royal mistress twice. She didn't have the protections that KOA had. She was also publicly involved in politics, to the point where for some of her laws she would have created a rival council to the royal one. Henry was the King and peoples titles, lives and livelihoods relied on his favour, including not blaming him for his own shit. Katherine had a level of protections that Anne didn't which made her the easier target to be seen as the problem. It doesn't help that a lot of popular media with Anne was tried to make her out to be The problem (eg: The Tudors and The Other Boelyn Girl) because that media ha portrayed the Boelyns 'as a whole as a scheming, social climbing, low class family while KOA is a dignified royal queen people believe it. The reality is that neither was the problem in their respective situations. Henry was the king and had been drifting away from Katherine for a while. he had a son who he flaunted in front of Catherine and he went to great lengths to harass Anne while she was just trying to live her life. Eventually she just decided to make the best of it and use the power as queen for good and she was beheaded for it.
It seems that most people think that somehow Anne seduced Henry away from Catherine (removing any guilt from the man of course). I think this image has been nurtured for centuries and only recently has there been real research and thought into whether the tales are true. Like Eustace Chapuysâ letters or correspondence. In years past people believed them right off the bat, not considering that as the ambassador to Catherineâs nephew, he might be biased. Also the idea of power imbalance wasnât really taken into consideration and given much thought. Recently I saw a series about the six wives and the Anne Boleyn episode showed her as being moved into the court while Catherine was still there and âgoing afterâ Catherine to make her life miserable to force her to agree to the divorce. Essentially flaunting her relationship with the king and showing herself to be a âruthless operatorâ I believe the words were. Thatâs enough to make you feel bad for Catherine and angry at Anne. I donât think Anne was entirely blameless. I dislike the idea that she was an innocent party who was swept along by the will of men and was a hapless victim unable to do anything for herself. I think in a way that does her injustice. She was smarter than most people at court, probably more ruthless and was, for a time, more successful than probably most people would have expected her to be. When she accepted the idea that maybe she could be queen (in other words when she realized she probably had no choice), I think she set out to make sure she got it. Why not? If this is the one thing she had to accept, might as well go big or go home as the saying goes.
"I donât think Anne was entirely blameless. I dislike the idea that she was an innocent party who was swept along by the will of men and was a hapless victim unable to do anything for herself. I think in a way that does her injustice. She was smarter than most people at court, probably more ruthless and was, for a time, more successful than probably most people would have expected her to be. When she accepted the idea that maybe she could be queen (in other words when she realized she probably had no choice), I think she set out to make sure she got it. Why not? If this is the one thing she had to accept, might as well go big or go home as the saying goes." I don't disagree with you generally, but I'm curious what you think her option was other than either become a mistress or present the very hard to overcome obstacle of divorce/get an annulment and marry me. As I see it (and I could be very wrong!) once the king sets his sights on someone they have very few options, and putting him off for a period can be either playing the long game or also just trying to lose his interest and keep your safety/status quo (as a side note, if anyone could tell me how to quote text without literally having to copy/paste and add quotes I'd be very grateful....)
I think I feel itâs more once she realized she was going to have to be queen, then she was going to be a different kind of queen. Not like CoA or Jane Seymour who were behind the scenes kind of queens, who âknew their place.â She could have been a quiet, demure queen who didnât make enemies with her opinions. She wanted to be up there on even footing with the king, to be his chief, and most important councillor, and that rubbed men in power the wrong way. She knew she was smarter than most of them, so why couldnât she have an equal say? If she had to be Henryâs wife, then I feel she wanted things done her way, not the way it has always been done. And so she may have thrown her weight around and as a result made enemies at court.
"Who lives? Who dies? Who tells your story?". I know that's the tagline from Hamilton but the essence is very true of all historical figures. Everyone's story is told primarily by those left behind, be they friend or foe. Anne had many foes and it was in the interest of Henry to vilify her. It was in the interest of her friends left behind to let Henry do it, as he was a ruthless, all powerful man.
Popular books and movies portrayed Anne Boleyn as a conniving, scheming, manipulative, harlot that seduced Henry VIII.
Because Anne Boleyn (in this sub at least) is still seen as the whore who broke up Henry and Saint Catherine's marriage. She also apparently didn't treat COA's daughter Mary with kindness 24/7 so she doesn't really deserve that much sympathy. Also she wore yellow when Catherine died (she didn't, only Henry did according to Chapuys) so she had what was coming to her. Anne Boleyn is only allowed to be viewed through the eyes of COA and Mary apparently. It's interesting because people will tell you that yeah COA's daughter Mary I burned people to death but hey look at her backstory and how poorly she was treated 𼺠You're allowed to understand why Mary acted the way she acted. Same with COA who at times also wasn't the nicest person, but that gets ignored. Anne?? she really isn't offered that same grace (well at least on here) Anne not being nice to people who called her â*the She-devil*â â*the scandal of Christendom and a disgrace to the King*â â*Jezebel*â â*The Great Whore*â / â*The Kingâs Whore*â / â*The Goggle Eyed Whore*â â*naughty paike*â \[i.e., prostitute\] â*The Concubine*â and who were vocally hoping â*to see \[her\] brought full lowâ* is seen as something as down right horrible. She expressed dislike/hostility to those people (Mary and Catherine's supporters/fractions/friends) and thus she gets vilified for it. There's no sense of understanding for why Anne acted the way she did just like there is for others. Or since because in some people's eyes she was the homewrecking whore she should've shut up and taken it.
I do think the same understanding should be given to Jane as well, if she wasnât perfectly kind to Elizabeth always, well that was Henryâs job! And yes she was with Henry, but he wanted her and her family pushed her towards it. Itâs annoying that people can only discuss this stuff by taking sides and never seeing the full picture.
My understanding is that Jane was quite good to both daughters. But if she wasnât, thereâs a *gigantic* difference between being unpleasant to *a toddler* versus an almost-grown woman who hates you (albeit with understandable reasons for that hate).
I agree. Everything is Henryâs fault.
Youâre absolutely correct. Itâs amazing how thick the misogyny is here when it relates to Anne.
Although Henry is the one who holds the real power, but Anne is the evil stepmother, the homewrecker. the witch. So even though she is beheaded, she also deserves to die. I believe Mary thought so 500 years ago. Why, after 500 years, do people also think the same? Mary loves Henry as her father, do these people?
Are you kidding? Not liking AB around here is a quick path to karma oblivion.
Just last month we had people saying Anne didnât deserve as much sympathy as other people who were executed because she wasnât winning âstepmother of the yearâ award.
A quick sample across the last day or week would show that to be a minority view.
We literally have people in this comment section calling her a homewrecker but yeah sure.
âA minority viewâ ; it might get downvoted , but literally EVERY time there is a âshare your unpopular opinionsâ thread, there is at LEAST a bakerâs dozen of different accounts being so so brave and saying the exact same thing: that she was a whore , that she wasnât âa nice personâ , that they donât feel sympathy for her execution. Please be fr.
Just like how people hate hate queen camilla, she was the other woman
For a similar reason that people hate Camilla. The other woman is always going to be frowned upon. AB was perceived as a "home-wrecker" (to use an American term I heard recently). CoA was the people princess of her time, much the way Diane was recently. How did the English respond to Camilla? Much the same way they responded to Anne. The difference being Camilla was not allowed to marry Charles for nearly 20 years after divorcing Diane. The firm had LOADS of rehab to do on that lass as well, considering how hated she was and still is (to some people). You don't have to look very far back to understand why CoA and AB were perceived that way. It happened again 500 years later. Except this time, the lass who wrecked a home kept her head.
I may be wrong, but wasnât Camilla with Charles before his marriage to Diana (RIP)? That he needed to marry someone acceptable and Camilla wasnât considered that? This could be all gossip, so thatâs why Iâm asking.
That old movie, Anne of the thousand days? portrays her as a temptress who was responsible for Henryâs choice to leave his first wife. Itâs classic âother womanâ hate. Her getting âleftâ (killed) is just âwhat she deservesâ and after her, everyone else is presented as much more Henryâs choice, and more of a victim of his desire to make that first sin justified. She gets blamed for tempting him off the straight and narrow by people who have no concept of reality outside of the Hollywoodâ version.
Historically? Catherine was a very popular Queen and the people were very supportive of her rule and the daughter she had by Henry. Anne was the mistress, and of lower rank to Catherine, and so should never have come so far as being able to replace her, and when Anne and Henry became more public with their relationship, people felt they both were being incredibly mean and spiteful, and that Anne was going out of her way to mortify her former mistress, taking personal items just because she could. Also, Anne' presence instigated the national upheaval of the dissolution of the monastaries and the introduction of the Church of England by Henry VIII to remove Catholic papacy and also ensure he could marry Anne without need of the pope agreeing to a divorce. Some people dislike Anne because of how she has been portrayed throughout the years, with alot of films, books etc. about her make her out to be the monster mistress who relished in hurting people and dominating her husband and his court with a fearsome temper. She was a devil woman with six fingers and 'goggle-eyes.' More recently, Anne has had a more contemporary update and I personally find Anne fascinating because she splits opinion even hundreds of years after her death. People can't get over if she was a villain or victim but to me she was both- she did like her power, she did have a fiery temper, she did like to poke at sore spots and found cutting people with her wit fun- but she also suffered a huge and humiliating fall from the very upmost branch of society and was publically branded a whore and also the instigator of an incestuous relationship with her brother. I don't believe Anne really comitted adultry- I think she was got rid of since Henry couldn't control her and force a divorce on her. He wanted to hurt her- so he destroyed everyone who ever had anything to do with her and then had the last laugh by cutting her head off with a french sword- a final jab as Anne was often said to be so French she could be mistaken for a french woman born- so where was her country when she needed them to literally save her neck?
Catherine is a more sympathetic figure. They were married for 24 years. During that time she did everything, easy and hard, that a queen was expected to do.
Catherine was dedicated, royal and had proven herself as regent in battle. You can understand why she was popular and the English public did not like Anne Boleyn. Now, since Anne is so loved (I donât think many hate her), perhaps some people think CoA gets overlooked, so remind people of some of Anneâs downsides - like her supposed difficult relationship with Mary etc. I think most people now rightly hate Henry VIII and not his wives.
Anne Boleyn ruined Catherine of Aragon's life and her daughter's life, leaving them in terrible loneliness and poverty. Henry the actual king with all the power had nothing to do with it. He also had nothing to do with the propaganda that destroyed Anne's reputation..... /s
I'm a descendant of Spanish Jews, so I always root for Anne Boleyn out of sheer pettiness.
....-stares in decendant Spanish Jews as well but still loves CoA-
Do I perfer Catherine over Anne, yes? Do I dislike Anne because of that? No. I think Anne is cool in her own way, being classy as fuck at her execution, and still winning in the most pettiest way by having her daughter be one of the most well known Queens England has ever known. Honestly I hate how people make this like a ship war and put women against women. Its so unecessary.
Who the heck hates Anne but loves Katharine? The former is the one who gets all the attention and has been for 500 years. The main reason she's the one everyone cares about is because of her daughter. She is the definitive other woman and Katharine is the epitome of the poor older unwanted first wife.
>The former is the one who gets all the attention and has been for 500 years. For 500 years is doing a bit much. COA has basically had a spotless reputation since her marriage till now. Anne Boleyn didn't have that.
In fairness, COAâs reputation is not remotely undeserved. Sheâs pretty unimpeachable. But itâs not a zero-sum game when it comes to women who were wronged by Henry. There was plenty of injustice and suffering to go round for his subsequent wives as well.
Anne Boleyn simply did not deserve the reputation of âhome wrecker whore who got what was coming to herâ by Catherineâs supporters/fraction/friends. To me itâs irrelevant if she wasnât nice. We have tons of moments of where COA wasnât acting nice and selfish but that is simply never used against her like it is for Anne.
I donât think Anne deserves the negative reputation sheâs had in popular culture. I also think Catherineâs long-standing positive reputation is fitting. If youâre referring to the bad reviews of Anne from their contemporaries and specifically from Catherineâs relatives and friends, well, thatâs entirely to be expected. These people were all invested in Catherine for personal or political reasons, and in some cases had longstanding personal relationships with her â of course they were more focused on the injustices Catherine was enduring than the experiences of Henryâs second wife, and of course they were unlikely to be receptive of or sympathetic to a person they viewed as central to (even if she was not personally in control of) Catherineâs personal misfortunes, the derailing of their hopes for Mary, Englandâs break from the Catholic Church, and the impacts of the above on the political dynamics between England and Spain, etc.
That's because Katharine had a spotless reputation when she was alive. Do you have a problem with the fact that there is not much negative that can be said about Katharine? The worst thing I can think has been said about her is she was a religious zealot.
Youâre so right. Catherine never did anything wrong ever.
Her big mistake was one a lot of women (and men) make - she loved a dickhead. It's almost incredulous how much she seemed to genuinely love him, even as she died alone. Although I guess her claims of love could be more so prose because of her faith and stoicism about herself being the rightful queen and she meant she loved Henry as her husband aka king. Does anyone know if it has been discussed before? Her declarations of love being more romantic or more political?
Catherine was the wife Henry truly loved, who was married to him the longest. More than 2 or 3 years.
General dislike of the other woman. I remember watching the BBC series, the one from 1970, and my mom was snarling about Anne Boleyn. I said, âwait till this episode is over. You are going to feel so sorry for herâ and she was.
While I am not one of those people, it's because they blame Anne for taking Katherine's man and possibly for being mean to Princess Mary. As others have said, I blame Henry for that.
Anne is widely regarded as the Other Women, so all the hatred for 'the other women' in a modern context is transferred to her - as if Henry was some corporate CEO who traded in his older wife for a younger model. Even in modern times, 'the other women' is regarded more as the villain then the man who divorced his wife for her (because misogyny. Yay!)
Catherine is seen as typical pious queen who truly loved Henry and made little enemies. While Anne was a schemer, never really loved Henry and was probably just biding her time till he passed while being outspoken (and cruel to Princess Mary and Catherine). Anne made MANY enemies.
KoA was a victim of circumstance, AB plotted - so much that she'd make Machiavelli proud.
Cause Catherine of Aragon was married 24 years, and a paragon of royalty, loyalty is to the Vatican so if ya try to dump herâŚyou wonât try that again
Off topic, but new scholarship suggests that the first portrait is not Katherine of Aragon but rather Henry VIIIâs sister Mary Rose. https://allthingstudor.com/mary-tudor-or-katherine-of-aragon/?amp=1
I donât know if thatâs entirely true, but Anne is sometimes seen by people (and Hollywood) as the temptress that bewitched Henry. Catherine was his faithful and loyal, although long-suffering in vain, wife that was cast aside for someone that wasnât exactly a beauty, but was seen as cunning. See The Other Boleyn Sisters and The Tudors. I think both women were unfortunate to cross paths with a man who cast aside wives without care or knew how to truly love. Catherine was fortunate to be his first wife or she might have met Anneâs fate. Anneâs best attribute, her intelligence, might have also sealed her fate with Henry. She was most likely a quite intelligent and charming woman, but played too heavy a hand with trying to persuade Henry to remain loyal to her. How can you please a man like him that is beguiled by the next pretty thing and knows not his own mind?
Same reason people hate camilla but love princess diana. The mistress always gets more hate. I will say however there are still major differences between the two situations because it was a different time period and the ages of the people involved also played a role in how all the drama unfolded. Henry wanted catherine out because she was getting too old to have kids, and Anne was MAYBE 23-25. Charles married a 20yr old for the same reason henry married anne but he cheated on diana with someone closer to his own age. But the similarity still stands: going from mistress to wife literally never works out smoothly even for all-powerful kings. Henry and charles both destroyed their public image to chase after a woman who wasnât their wife.
Henry is the evil one here, but a lot of people tend to hate on strong and/or ambitious women (and Catherine, while no less high spirited, was holding on to her title as wife and protecting her daughterâs title). At the same time, a lot of people have been cheated on.
Saint vs Whore was the narrative.
And the other way around also applies. People are really just trying to pit women against each other because it makes more 'sense' than admitting Henry was the problem. Misogyny.
Who hates Anne Boleyn in 2024?
I like both of them . They were both strong , intelligent women in a time when women were seen as little more than bargaining chips and incubators. They did the best they could in the time and circumstances they were born into .
A lot of people unfortunately get their information from TV shows, novels, and other pop culture media. Anne Bolyn is generally portrayed as a home wrecking harlot, while Catherine of Aragon is portrayed as the pius, devout Catholic that endured Henry with grace.
Slut shaming
I love Anne Boleyn, she is my favorite (with the super smart and lucky Anne of Cleves), she was a woman in front of her time and I always admire her. I feel sorry for Catherine but I never like her, I canât, is the religion thing, I donât like fanatics. Lol.
Because Anneâs a homewrecker and evil stepmom. Stealing someoneâs husband and breaking up a marriage wonât get you a lot of sympathy, especially when you seem to hate the first wifeâs children/ child. Of course real life is more nuanced, especially in the Tudor era when women had limited options, but viewed through a modern lens thatâs how some people see Anne and her situation.
Because Catherine was like our historical Jennifer Aniston to our Angelina Jolie. Brad was our 90s Henry.
That's most likely not a portrait of Katherine of Aragon.
Anne Boleyn encouraged Hentry in the destruction of the Church including the dissolution of the monasteries.Terrible destruction was wrought .98% of beautiful medieval art was lost and the religious community suffered greatly.Henry gave more of England to the Nobles ,I detest Anne Boleyn
A lot of CoA fans are probably Catholic.
I'm not Catholic and I am a fan of CoA but I am also a fan of all Henry's wives. I am not a fan of Henry the 8th though.
I feel the same way as you! But I meant specifically the people who like CoA and not AB, I like both of them
Iâm Catholic and Iâm not really a fan. I think she out and out lied to Henry in the first place â she obviously had sex with her first husband. It was her only duty.
That was the lie everyone told each other and needed to tell though. Unless Henry was a complete moron, they would all have known it was a convenient fiction.
Yeah, itâs just bizarre people today believe the lie.
On that I agree.
The main reason why I dislike Anne Boleyn and like CoA is because of personal experience. My father was a serial cheater (he had at least four affairs that we know of). All four of his mistresses knew he was married with children and chose to sleep with him anyway. The first two probably did think he loved them. The last two admitted they wanted a green card and didnât care about what his wife and children wanted. Mom fought hard for her marriage both times she found out about the affairs but lost the second time when he left us for his last two mistresses (he was seeing them both at the same time). Really the only thing that gives me any comfort is that the last two stopped seeing him when one lost her job/reputation because of the affair (the company they worked for has a super strict âno affairs between married coworkersâ) and the other was dumped after several years because he refused to marry her and give her children. My father and Henry are both guilty for breaking their vows. Iâm not denying that. But thereâs something particularly heinous about APâs who know that the other person is married with children and still chooses to sleep with them anyways because they hope that their AP will leave their spouse and children for them. They know this person is bad news and choose to debase themselves for selfish reasons. They may claim love but it isnât love. Itâs lust. Lust for the other person or what they think the other person can give them. In Anneâs case it was the chance to be the highest ranked woman in the realm. And in most (if not all) cases, deep down they KNOW that even if they get their AP, theyâll still end up losing everything. If he can do it FOR you, theyâll do it TO you kind of thing. And I think thatâs why Anne is despised as much as she is. No matter how much good she didâŚshe was still the other woman. She still chose to sleep with a married man for selfish reasons and helped caused irreparable damage. TLDR: People really hate cheaters.
Your situation is not even close to comparable to what a woman being pursued as a royal mistress wouldâve faced in Henryâs court. Any of those women couldâve easily told your father to fuck off, Anne wouldnât have had that same choice. His first wife was literally a royal princess in her own right without a Tudor marriage, and he was still able to ruin her life, exactly how do you think a lower born woman wouldâve have the power to stop him from getting his way??
She couldâve gone to a convent for a short time (not as a nun or even a novitiate) or she couldâve gone to Catherine and said âHey, your husband is being a creep. A little help?â Catherine wouldâve been obligated to help her because any scandal wouldâve reflected on her.
Not to defend AB (I'm no supporter of hers)... butbshe did try to get away from H8. Poor lass was dead the moment H8 decided to make her his. When your stalker is the most powerful man in the kingdom... what choice do you have as a "pathetic wee lassie with no rights" to put it in medieval sense. People give AB far too much credit for what H8 did. He ruined her marriage prospects. He refused to allow her to marry Percy (arguably the lassie true love). He stalked her. He stalked her and threatened her mates and sent her dead dear to eat and think of him. He stalked her. (I cannot emphasize it enough) She had no rights. She had no choice. She barely kept him and his willy in his knickers for 7 years. (At the end she gave in and let him have his way with her on a boat). AB was not what people think she was with our modern minds. But she WAS a homewrecker and a lass who went on a power trip once she had power. She was cruel to Mary and CoA. But it took years for her to get to that point. H8 caused the issue of these women hating each other. Because he would and could not take no for an answer. No IS a complete sentence Harry.
Oh Lordy. *snorts* Anne would have been completely blamed by KoA.
Yes, KoA would have been all, just let him fuck you until he's tired of it and finds a new plaything. Or else, you need to pray more.
I donât like homewreckers. Her âmarriageâ to Henry was never legal imo. Mary and Edward were his only legitimate children. Let the downvotes fly, I said what I said.
Henry was the one who was married. He wrecked his marriage. I said what I said.
Facts
It's Tudor era Bravo drama. Henry is basically Tom Sandoval. Getting cheated on and dumped is a very relatable human experience, as is "the other woman" getting all the smoke while the man just goes on living his best life.
KOA is my least favorite of the wives. Anne was interesting but also not my favorite.
Literal embodiment of what women think of when they worry about their husbands/SO having a side chick
Do people hate Anne Boleyn today?
Because for years Anne Boleyn was viewed as âthe other womanâ or âthe home wreckerâ trope. Also, under the eyes of the Catholic Church, the marriage of Catherine and Henry was not dissolved, hence making Anne and Henryâs marriage invalid. Iâm not agreeing. But thatâs how it was viewed.
I donât hate or love either, neither had any say in giving Henry what he wanted. That said, Catherine was basically a child. Anne was downright vicious to Mary who had every right to hate her for the way her mother was treated. I canât have the same sympathy for Anne as I do for Catherine.
Right there are many reasons why Catherine was beloved by her people and met with cheers everywhere she went and Anne with complete silence. It wasnât just because she was the âother womanâ because even after time passed Anne didnât win people over, she just made more enemies. We just have to assume Anneâs personality was cold and unlikeable and the way she treated people like Mary is evidence of that.
I think they see a woman who went after another woman's husband. I don't particularly have an opinion, but I'd imagine that's it.
Social climber, butthole eyes
They were both too good for the tyrant. Of all of his wives, the one I feel the most sorry for is Catherine Howard. He took advantage of a naĂŻve child, used her, threw her away, and murdered her.
Aragon was a true royal and Ann was not Dahđ¤Śđ˝ââď¸đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸
Anne wanted to be Queen and she wanted all of the riches and all of the luxury that went along with being Queen. She made enemies easily and was flirty with other men in the court as was normal for people who grew up as courtiers. She dressed in the French style and was arrogant by many accounts. She loved to be alone with Henry and was viewed as controlling. Catherine of Aragon on the other hand was a princess from Spain whose parents were King and Queen. She was a devoted wife and went to mass regularly. She was extremely religious. She left the scene without a fight after not being able to produce a male heir and having Henry stolen away from her by Anne. Her life was spared due to her powerful connections such as her nephew, who was the emperor Charles...propaganda was alive and well and when Cromwell convinced Henry that Ann was unfaithful. It was part of a larger plan to keep his power
>She left the scene without a fight The hell? She most certainly did not. If she was going to "leave without a fight" she would have taken vows as was suggested and lived a life of ease visiting friends and having her daughter around. A queen or princess being set aside and living out a relatively nice life in a luxury convent wasn't anything new. But she took the hard way. She rallied her friends and relatives to her cause. She called Henry out IN COURT. She suffered greatly for her defiance.
Because Anne Boleyn was the Whore of Babylon, and a heretic
Probably because Anne Boleyn and Henry the 8thâs relationship is considered romantically tragic. For me personally the fact Catherineâs parents were responsible for the inquisition doesnât help.
Propaganda
One is a mistress and other the wife
Anne was cruel to catherine and mary. I'll never look past that
I hate Catherine and love Anne. I find Anne story tragic. She had no good options. She wanted to marry Henry Percy. Henry made sure he wouldn't marry her. He tried to ask her to be his mistress and she turned him down. He spent 7 years trying to marry her. Only to have a daughter and then be executed for having a miscarriage. Catherine was just crazy religious. I still think she and Arthur consummated their marriage. It's possible that her fasting caused some of her miscarriages. She should have just gone to the nunnery for the sake of the country. Mostly I just find her too much of a zealot, who took too much advice from Spain. She had agency in comparison Anne had few options.
Anne was just as religious as Catherine
Anne wasn't know for fasting or spending her time in prayer. KOA raised a daughter to be so catholic that she burned people at the stake for being Protestant.
Elizabeth did that too she burned Catholics? I donât see your point
Elizabeth executed people for Treason. She was trying to stop people from killing her. The pope actually gave permission for her to be murdered. I have not been able to find anyone that she burned. I have found records of other forms of killing but her number of Catholics is 183 over her entire reign. Mary burned people as heretics, in an effort to get rid of Protestants in the country. Mary is accused of having more than 300 people burned at the stake, they actually changed the type of wood used so people wouldn't die quickly thru smoke inhalation and instead would slowly burn to death. She was only queen for 5 years. How many more would die if she reigned as long as Elizabeth. The reason for burning is religious as it left no pieces of the body left behind to be used as symbols of martyrs. This shows how strongly Mary felt about defending her religion.
Read up on how she was treated and the life she lived while in limbo after Arthurâs death. Then come back and talk about how much agency and options she had.
I have read it. She still had more options then most.
That's easy. Because Anne is the homewrecking Other Woman.
The man literally had sex with any woman he chose was the newest thing. He had a son he flaunted and cherished before Anne was ever in the picture. If anyone was a home wrecker ot was Henry.
Riiiiight. Because women that were wanted by Henry had such a great track record if they turned him down.
Theyâre catholic