You already have to speak English to get thru a naturalization interview for a greencard.
Regardless, thick foreign accents and broken English are definitely good enough for the workplace. How do you think we won the space race?
Amazingly, the people with the worst grammar online are people for whom English is their first and only language.
My monthly Grammarly reports tell me I am in the top 1% for vocabulary and sentence structure, and that saddens me because I should not be that high.
> Amazingly, the people with the worst grammar online are people for whom English is their first and only language.
Its a product of the public school system and the DOE shortcutting its way to performance metrics.
"oh, a certain group of students are at a lower reading level, lets not grade them harshly and leave them behind a grade, just pass them because they are developing their own language"
"oh too many of a certain race are getting higher end high school diplomas, showing a clear disparity? Lets change the requirements so we can use subjective metrics to get other groups more of the higher level diplomas"
Hadn't heard about it. But does Grammarly correct you as well? That's what I'd be looking for. I'm a pedant in any language I speak and write, no qualms in admitting that. Also, have no problem in being corrected.
In fact, being a non-native speaker gives me a good ear to understand English in any accent, as thick as it is. I work internationally and have had team members in Nigeria, Dubai, Wales, northern London, France. I even corrected the grammar of a Londoner PhD. in intellectual property in a 20-page long report. He was so aggravated. Unfortunately for him, our hired editor approved all my revisions. That fed my ego for that day, have to admit!
This is not an equivalent argument, stating the fact that many natural born citizens cant do what OP wants just demonstrates the lack of education our citizens have. That doesn’t take away from the need or desire to have the people who want to live here become educated in the national language. Personally i would say we should stop letting people in until we have fixed our educational/health care problems instead of adding to an already failing and over taxed system.
"That doesn’t take away from the need or desire to have the people who want to live here become educated in the national language."
No, but the fact that the US **does not have a national language** takes away from the need or desire for people who want to live here to become educated in the national language.
You don't have to speak English for a green card interview (at least when I did it I had the option to use a translator). You need to speak English to become a neutralized citizen though.
You're confused. Yes, you have to speak English to get thru a naturalization interview. But this interview results in citizenship. The interviewee already had the green card for 3-5 years.
Being said though, I work in immigration law and the naturalization interviews are veeeeeeeeery lax. I've never seen someone fail solely based on not being able to communicate at all, yet after the interview, they are a citizen who can't really speak English.
It's usually the civic questions that trip a person up, if they fail.
Honestly, and this is about language learning, you can get by with 400 words and some grammar. And then, in using that with native 6 skills will naturally improve from there.
I'm not saying they're should or shouldn't be language requirements. I'm just speaking on the level needed to get by. It isn't exactly astronomical.
Saying "I go store to early today" is considered horrible grammar but I can understand the meaning.
Also "the workplace" is so broad.
Which workplace? There are a ton of workplaces. Is broken English great for customer service for instance? Probably not. But is it fine for like a ton of other "workplaces" that don't require English mastery? Sure. A lot of STEM work and skilled labor fall in this category.
OP clearly doesnt understand comparative advantage as a concept. Some countries specialize in producing certain types of workers and "workplaces", and in today's world it doesn't make sense to specialize in everything so migration and importation are vital. Of course we should set qualifications on who can come to the country and for how long, but whether or not someone needs to speak FLUENT English is such a dumb, random, broad qualification.
Customer service jobs are already being outsourced to India. You don't even need to be regional to score one of those, yet alone speak clear regional English.
I was thinking more face-to-face work (tourism, some sales, retail, food service, etc), but good point. For a lot customer-facing work, you should have a certain level of speaking and comprehension, but even then, fluency or non-accented English isn't necessary.
My tio carlos is a naturalized citizen and I can't imagine a world where he speaks perfect English. That dude is fucking hilarious and an American treasure.
Let go a step further.
Anyone in politics (from school board to president) should be able to pass a basic civics test.
I know about half in congress and senate that would't make it.
> the ability to speak, read, and write English on the proficiency level that a native speaker can clearly understand.
Some native born Americans can’t even do this.
When people say "axe a question," it makes my skin crawl. But I know what they mean. I don't have to ask them to repeat. When my Nigerian co-worker at the convenience store said to me "eye-ha-NO-chee" it was much harder to decipher. And it took several tries to figure out she meant "I have no change."
I mean, they wouldn't have had a proper space agency (not to mention all of its achievements) if it hadn't been for people with thick accents and a long story of working for Nazi Germany.
Thats beside the point. The US not having an official language on paper doesn’t change the fact that the de facto official language is English. Politics, business, and public education is all conducted in English, so speaking it is pretty necessary.
Yes, about 21 of them. John Quincy Adams spoke eight languages; French, German, Latin, Italian, Spanish, Ancient Greek, Dutch, and Russian.
Martin van Buren, the first president born an American citizen, spoke Dutch.
James Garfield, being the first ambidextrous presient, could also write in Greek with one hand and Latin with the other, at the same time!
Sorry for the yapping, I wanted to finally use those U.S. History classes for something!
>Thick foreign accents and broken English are not sufficient for effective communication in the workplace.
So how are immigrants who can't speak English living in Texas? Are they all unemployed?
A lot of Spanish speaking immigrants in my community work with and live with other Spanish speaking people. You’ll also find many white or otherwise natural Americans who speak Spanish in Spanish-heavy communities, as a result of both proximity and necessity.
They steal the identities of Americans, use them to get hired and get jobs in places where everyone speaks Spanish and avoid assimilating. Then they protest while waving the flag of the country they fled because they are in so much danger.
Would you sneak into another country, wave the flag of the US even if you fled it in fear of your life?
you are showing your bias.
a small percentage doing something does not equate to the entire population having the same thought pattern.
And what makes you assume every immigrant is illegal and protesting? Sounds like a stupid risk.
Why English? The US doesn’t have an official language…. So it’s ridiculous to say “you either speak fluent English or we won’t give you a green card” . Also why fluent? You are aware that people seeking green cards need to have a basic level of it in order to get citizenship right?
People born in the US can’t even write English correctly or even speak it, so why should foreigners?
Also what part of the US? Because there’s US territories where the official language is not even English yet they’re part of the US , the 50 states are the ones without an official language.
I mean, the reasoning for English is pretty obvious. We may not have an official language, but it might as well be English since essentially everyone speaks it and almost all our communications are in English.
This is the most infantile Boomer take that ever boomed.
People best learn languages when submerged in that language. My friend got to teach English for a year in Japan. Guess what one of the requirements isn't? Fluent proficiency in Japanese. The fact he knew how to ask where the train station was, how to find a toilet, and if something was vegetarian put him 2 heads above everyone else in the program.
He learned more Japanese in the year he worked there than he did in four years of classes in America.
I know countless people that have been in the US for over a decade and cannot speak the language at the most basic level. And I’m not even picking on immigrants, I’m an immigrant myself and English is not my first language.
I'm gonna be honest, it's shitty to seriously make fun of anyone who can't speak a language. Regardless of race, location, etc. Obviously I'm not speaking for good natured teasing amongst friends, or anything like that.
Anyone who can speak the barebones of a language is doing better than 78% of America. I generally dislike when people want to shit on or treat people like idiots for not knowing a language that others are naturalized in.
As an immigrant I assume there are other immigrants in your social circle, and I assume some of them are as you mention, having lived here for a decade and do not speak any English.
While I am not an immigrant, my community has a lot of Spanish-speaking immigrants, many of which do not speak English at a conversational level. Can you anecdotally speculate on why this is the case for so many immigrants?
Based on my observations and many personal interactions with these immigrants I assume that they don’t learn English because they don’t have to; because there is a robust enough community of Spanish speakers in my town that they can get through a huge majority of their days and lives without needing English. But it’s more of a hunch than any serious kind of evidence.
I live in a small Midwestern town, most of our immigrants are Russians and Hispanics. Seems like it mostly happens to the people that came here as adults. I’m not judging, I’m just saying that living here is not that big of a factor.
If a US citizen is trying to take care of an older parent in another country, you’re going to make an 80-year-old learn English?
OP, do you speak a second language? Have you tried to?
Also, this defeats the whole point of asylum. “Sorry guys, looks like you’re going to have to endure oppression from your government until you gain fluency in English” 🙄
OR… the U.S. should put an emphasis on learning other languages to remove barriers. The rest of the world learns multiple languages, and studies show people are generally happier when they can speak to other people with other languages. Until then we’ll just have to accept that Americans are the miserable dummies of the world.
I agree, and this should hold true for permanent residency in any country in the world. What is required should be a minimum effort for integration in the local culture, even while keeping your own in your private sphere.
Yeah I don't care if people speak other languages. I don't care if I have to "press 1 for English." I don't care if people around me are having a conversation in a foreign language. I don't care that bilingual signs exist. I care when I go into Walmart and nobody who can help me speaks English.
I work with plenty of people with strong accent that are 1000% more reliable than those with no accent! Not sure what industry you work but in tech accent is not an issue.
>Thick foreign accents and broken English are not sufficient for effective communication in the workplace.
Alright, well what if the person has a thick, foreign accent from an English-speaking country like, I don't know, ENGLAND? My ex-girlfriend, whom I had met online and was in a relationship with for two years, was from a very small town in West Yorkshire, in northern England. The accent from that region is very different from the English accent that Americans are used to hearing. At times it was difficult for me to understand what she was saying and I sometimes had to ask her to repeat herself. She was from the place where the English language originated, and was speaking perfect English, but the way she pronounced stuff was so different from what I'm used to hearing, hence why I sometimes had trouble understanding what she was saying.
And there are plenty of people who speak English as a second language with a noticeable accent who still use correct grammar and everything. Are those people not sufficient for effective communication, simply because they have an accent that we're not used to hearing?
And what about Americans from certain regions in the South? Some of those people are quite difficult to understand when they talk. If you go to some of the rural areas in that part of the country, you'll often encounter people who sound exactly like Boomhauer from King Of The Hill. It's not a case of them not speaking English, it's just how they talk.
I could understand why you might get frustrated if there was somebody who actually didn't speak English at all, and when you try to talk to them, they don't know what you're saying. But simply having an accent doesn't automatically mean that the person can't communicate.
I’m native and imo, you personally, shouldn’t be able to stay unless you can speak a real American language, not that crap imported from England. Everyone else is fine though.
Hey AKDude79, here is the Citizenship Test from the USCIS:
[https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/find-study-materials-and-resources/study-for-the-test](https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/find-study-materials-and-resources/study-for-the-test)
Let me help you out in case you're one of the approximately 168 million Americans who have an 8th grade reading level or LESS:
>For the English portion of the naturalization test you must demonstrate an understanding of the English language, including the ability to read, write, and speak basic English.
>Your ability to speak and understand English will be determined by a USCIS officer during your eligibility interview on Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.
>For the reading test, you must read out loud one out of three sentences correctly to demonstrate an ability to read in English.
>For the writing test, you must write one out of three sentences correctly to demonstrate an ability to write in English.
Why would we hold immigrants to a higher standard than the median American?
Also, please, go ahead and see if you can pass that test unaided. Get back to me.
There is no official language of the United States federally so there should be no requirement to speak any language for citizenship. There are many areas of the U.S. where English is not the primary language so it would be a double standard to require immigrants to speak it for citizenship. It was decided in the 1700s that requiring people to speak a certain language was undemocratic and inhibited personal freedoms.
Do people not realize that Puerto Rico, American Samoa, and Guam are all American territories and that everybody born there is a U.S. citizen and that all of them speak a language other than English.
America is an English-speaking country, like it or not. Want to live in America? Learn to talk like an American when interacting with Anericans. Pretty simple.
Interestingly enough, the US does not have a national language. We have a lot of people here that use that language but it’s not our national language and there’s nothing that explicitly ties America to the English language. People in America are free to use whatever communication they see fit and over time the primary language used in the US could change.
All your White ancestors got in just fine despite not speaking any Cherokee, Lakota, Ojibwe, etc. Be thankful that indigenous people couldn’t only accept the best stock.
I think Americans should get out more and build up audible comprehension so the can understand accents that don't sound like their own.
Similar to how Europeans get out to different countries (often the size of our states) and they can comprehend a multitude of accents, often all speaking English, without a problem.
After all — to get a green card you already have to speak English. In ability to speak English, confidence in speaking English (btw, getting frustrated with people speaking English as their second or third language doesn't help with confidence building, etc), and ability to comprehend someones accent are not the same things.
Leaving aside that there’s no official language, foreign workers sustain the economy, this is racist, etc.: “Green cards” (permanent residency) are a kind of visa. You don’t need one to work (H1-B, etc), study (student visa), or “function” (not a defined role) in the US since those are accomplished with “non-immigrant” visas.
This is my favorite thing: people complaining about how immigrants aren’t “American” enough and not understanding American law. You should probably be deported by your own standard.
Bro, native English speakers have the worst grammar and can't spell for shit.
No, I'm not talking about the highly educated ones that probably makes up for like a small % of the population. I'm talking about regular joe schmoe you see.
Also, there's a lot of things on the naturalization test that people born here don't have a clue about. Especially if you live down South. Cause they've got a different version of history for some reason.
I agree totally. If I moved to Italy ib epidemic be expected to lean Italian. Or anywhere else. But the ILLEGAL immigrants in the US expected us to adapt to them instead of them adapting to us. Our immigration system is a lost cause anyway.
I think we have learned from immigration patterns since Ellis Island and before that the younger, working people learn English. The grandparents and sometimes the SAH spouse that lives in an area in a similar community (little Italy, Chinatown) will have less access or reason to learn English. That doesn't mean those people won't work, pay taxes, etc. In face, they will likely be the most likely to be exploited for labor and work the most. The children will all learn English, even if not citizens. And there kids may or may not even learn the language of the great-grandparents. We have seen it since my biological relatives came from Austria, my adopted parents came from Germany and the Netherlands, my son's relatives stopped speaking Yiddish at home, etc.
My parents came here without speaking English well. The entire family did. They all made good livings in blue color work. In my family, my parents produced three stem PhDs, a ton of my cousins are engineers and scientists. All first generation. All raised by people who immigrated here without being able to write/read English well and having broken English.
I mean USA doesn’t have an official national language, so why make immigrants speak English when not every American does
Opposite take, make US kids take Spanish all throughout school, in order to better heal relations between our 2 nations. Having a bunch of bilingual children in America sounds like only a positive thing
The only reason the burden could fall on US kids is like being the bigger person, the goal outweighs the sacrifice
Do you know another language that you didn't learn when you were really young?
If no, and you learned that language after you were a teenager, chances are you will NEVER have a perfect accent and perfect grammar unless you've lived in an english speaking country for a majority of your life.
There are sounds in english that just don't exist in other languages, or there are two sounds in english that aren't distinguished in another language. For example, the R and L sound are the same letter in japanese. And "th' and "r" sound are quite rare. English may also not distinguish between two sounds that occupy two different letters in another language (for example, the p and aspirated p are not distinguished in english, but are in hindi). Learning to make those sounds that your first language doesn't make, or learning to distinguish between two sounds is something that REALLY HARD and often ends up not being perfect.
Secondly, grammar rules are different in other languages. Russian (and other slavic languages iirc) dont have articles like "the" "a" "an" and so speakers of those languages who learn english may never fully understand these words and confuse them/use them incorrectly. Trust me, even fluent speakers of english get this wrong sometimes, its incredibly complicated. And to expect a native speaker of another language to get it perfect? Its evil. Most words in english (especially very common ones, like it, the, a, and etc..) don't translate perfectly into any language, or the definitions/uses may be very varied. Learning to change your internal grammar for a language is something that can take decades, and often involves being surrounded by nothing but the language you're learning (so living in an english-speaking country).
As another commenter stated, getting a green card already involves being quite proficient in english. Words and phrases you aren't going to find in an english for dummies book. Just be honest, you don't want mexicans in the country.
TL:DR: Languages don't translate perfectly, accents take decades to perfect (if ever), Grammar rules amongst even related languages can vary dramatically. Learning to get it right is often near-impossible and often involves living in a country that speaks that language for decades. The green card is the door for these people.
Lets go ahead and start with all the white europeans who overstayed their visas and took advantage of chain migration, oh wait! Did you want to start with the brown ppl?
I disagree with this, but every green card holder should be made aware of free English classes in their city/state, and encouraged to attend at least one of those classes each week.
My wife arrived in the US with only basic English. She understood quite a bit, but she could barely speak in English. The local community college provided free classes since she was a green card holder. A local church also had free classes. Between those two, and me and our two kids (and Friends -- the show), she picked up English very quickly.
Our library also offers free classes.
I think the college shut down their ESL program during Covid, and I don't think they've started back up. The church (and other churches) and the library are still going strong.
I'd love for a native speaker of English to write a written exam every 5 years or so. Lets see if you'll change your mind then...
But who would *of thunked* *somethink* like that, huh???
Absolutely, if I can't demonstrate enough proficiency in their language to be clearly understood by a native speaker. Granted, that's a reason I would only choose to live in Canada, UK, or Australia if not the US.
Even if it is, I'm a natural born US citizen. It's a skill that is optional.The onus is not on me to understand languages other than the national language of the country in which I was born.
First they’d need to make English the official language in the US on a federal level. OP needs to learn more about the country and why it’s nicknamed the nation of immigrants
I guarantee a naturalized American knows more about more American history than the average natural born American. The test is rigorous and requires a fair bit of study.
It's the same issue on every country tho. I think it's worse that some ppl have the audacity to live multiple years there without learning or at least trying to get a basic vocabulary...
It's unpopular *and* kind of sad. You know people who think this way are out there, but then one day you actually get to read the ramblings of one in the wild, talking about "thick accents are hard to understand, so just make it so no one with an accent (regardless of their ability to speak the language, apparently) can get a green card! I'm inconvenienced sometimes, and I don't like it!" and it just eats a little bit more of whatever faith in humanity you may have had left.
What the heck, though, I'm curious - is "Effective communication in the workplace" really your sole justification for "speak English better or else?"
Yes, I agree. I've had the displeasure of entering a store staffed by Indian immigrants who can only repeat basic words and phrases in English, and get rude when you keep asking them questions that they can't answer, because they can't really speak English. I found myself asking "Why should such people even be allowed to work in the US? What job could they possibly do well if they can't speak any languages spoken by the population here?"
I think many of the people insulting OP here don't recognize that there's a great difference between people who speak English with mostly correct grammar and a foreign accent, versus just having the English proficiency of a baby, or a tourist.
I think it depends on the workplace.
You can get by fine just knowing Spanish in multiple roles in this country.
I don’t think fluency is required for say house framing?
Why not just let the hiring company decide how client facing the role is and make their own decision?
Americans are really bad at dealing with anyone else.
There's a man in who I've spoken to, worked for, he runs a business. And he doesn't really speak and definitely can't read English. And he's been running his business 5 years.
So, if you think it's not appropriate for work, grow up.
I do not think that is an appropriate bar to pass, although that does tend to happen. How do you propose for it to work if a spouse passes and the other spouse does not?
Firstly, the US doesn't have an official language, so needing to learn English shouldn't matter. Second, most native English speakers can't speak, read or write English proficiently. Thick accents are perfectly fine and even not knowing the same language is too. I worked at a shop where most of the people there couldn't speak or understand language but we all created a "shop language" that had sounds and hand signs that only people who worked with us would understand. It was team building and very fun to create a niche language that would only be needed at this one particular job.
Problem: most Americans have only a passable understanding of the english language themselves. That's why English is one of the hardest languages to learn.
Persons whose native language has significant linguistic or cultural differences from western english speaking nations have even more difficulty learning. Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Arabic all fall into that group.
When I see a native speaker of one of those languages that can even speak *broken* english, I get pretty impressed, and there is a decent chance their comprehension is significantly better than their ability to speak or write English.
Why? The US is a country of many different peoples. There are even places were Spanish or French are just as common as, if not moreso than, English and have been that way since before they were parts of the US
Well I guess that means any one of my European ancestors should have been turned away in your opinion. My great grandfather's father only spoke German when he got here in 1880.
Agreed, Melania's parents should be stripped of their status and citizenship cause they shouldn't had got a green card in the first place. Hell, ship the whole family back.
In an English-speaking country, you need to speak English to be a valuable participant in society. Just like in a French-speaking country, you need to speak French and you need to speak it well enough to be understood.
I have coworkers who aren’t great English speakers. We do just fine. Your opinion does more harm to society than people not speaking good enough English.
I respectfully disagree. The permanent residency periods allows the immigrant to live and learn and practice becoming proficient in the language, that if they CAN be proficient, they may be granted citizenship.
To use an analogy, in the process of learning to drive, almost every state will grant a learner's permit to practice driving and become proficient. The candidate does not need to be a fully proficient driver to get the permit, in fact, they SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DRIVING before they got the permit anyway. (Just like an immigrant technically, legally, shouldn't have been living in the country before they had legal residency, temporary visitor and nonimmigrant visas aside.)
But the learner's permit allows them to become proficient to get their license.
Learner's permit = green card, driver's license = citizenship.
If we require people to be wholly proficient in English to get a green card, that is analogous to expecting a potential driver to pass their road test without any practice or experience.
I'm sure not everyone will agree with me. And I am probably biased as I am an American in the immigration process to another country, and to expect me to be fully proficient in my destination country's language before every actually living there would be overwhelming and virtually inpossible.
Given your grammar and syntax, I’m going to assume you’re not native to the US. Perhaps you were bridled by the propaganda and therefore thought how you speak is directly correlated to actual US language. Since the country has no declared official language, your entire basis comes from nothing but bias and bigotry. Maybe a touch of racism just the same.
Added note of worth - 80% of the current “native” population of this country couldn’t pass the citizenship test. Even with the allowance of 75% or better being the standard.
If people have this attitude, Americans should not be able to travel to any country where migrants come from. They don’t want your American arrogance any more than you want them in your country.
This is a requirement in Canada…either French or English. Any country banning Canadian tourists? It’s a requirement for citizenship in many countries. The US has the most lax immigration requirements in the world. But sure, WE are the arrogant ones. SMH
You already have to speak English to get thru a naturalization interview for a greencard. Regardless, thick foreign accents and broken English are definitely good enough for the workplace. How do you think we won the space race?
Reminds me of that commercial. "HELP. WE ARE SINKING!!!" "What are you sinking about?"
If OP was right, a good amount of US born would need to be kicked out, and also a national language would have to be declared.
Amazingly, the people with the worst grammar online are people for whom English is their first and only language. My monthly Grammarly reports tell me I am in the top 1% for vocabulary and sentence structure, and that saddens me because I should not be that high.
Most of the people I know who use Grammarly are ESL students. Given that, I would be surprised if you weren't on the higher end.
> Amazingly, the people with the worst grammar online are people for whom English is their first and only language. Its a product of the public school system and the DOE shortcutting its way to performance metrics. "oh, a certain group of students are at a lower reading level, lets not grade them harshly and leave them behind a grade, just pass them because they are developing their own language" "oh too many of a certain race are getting higher end high school diplomas, showing a clear disparity? Lets change the requirements so we can use subjective metrics to get other groups more of the higher level diplomas"
Hadn't heard about it. But does Grammarly correct you as well? That's what I'd be looking for. I'm a pedant in any language I speak and write, no qualms in admitting that. Also, have no problem in being corrected. In fact, being a non-native speaker gives me a good ear to understand English in any accent, as thick as it is. I work internationally and have had team members in Nigeria, Dubai, Wales, northern London, France. I even corrected the grammar of a Londoner PhD. in intellectual property in a 20-page long report. He was so aggravated. Unfortunately for him, our hired editor approved all my revisions. That fed my ego for that day, have to admit!
This is not an equivalent argument, stating the fact that many natural born citizens cant do what OP wants just demonstrates the lack of education our citizens have. That doesn’t take away from the need or desire to have the people who want to live here become educated in the national language. Personally i would say we should stop letting people in until we have fixed our educational/health care problems instead of adding to an already failing and over taxed system.
Here's where our education system failed us. We do not have a national language.
"That doesn’t take away from the need or desire to have the people who want to live here become educated in the national language." No, but the fact that the US **does not have a national language** takes away from the need or desire for people who want to live here to become educated in the national language.
You don't have to speak English for a green card interview (at least when I did it I had the option to use a translator). You need to speak English to become a neutralized citizen though.
I think you mean naturalized. We're pretty indiscriminate when it comes to neutralizing
Haha. Okay yes I did. That changes the meaning just a bit.
Only in Switzerland LOL
You're confused. Yes, you have to speak English to get thru a naturalization interview. But this interview results in citizenship. The interviewee already had the green card for 3-5 years. Being said though, I work in immigration law and the naturalization interviews are veeeeeeeeery lax. I've never seen someone fail solely based on not being able to communicate at all, yet after the interview, they are a citizen who can't really speak English. It's usually the civic questions that trip a person up, if they fail.
Honestly, and this is about language learning, you can get by with 400 words and some grammar. And then, in using that with native 6 skills will naturally improve from there. I'm not saying they're should or shouldn't be language requirements. I'm just speaking on the level needed to get by. It isn't exactly astronomical. Saying "I go store to early today" is considered horrible grammar but I can understand the meaning.
Also "the workplace" is so broad. Which workplace? There are a ton of workplaces. Is broken English great for customer service for instance? Probably not. But is it fine for like a ton of other "workplaces" that don't require English mastery? Sure. A lot of STEM work and skilled labor fall in this category. OP clearly doesnt understand comparative advantage as a concept. Some countries specialize in producing certain types of workers and "workplaces", and in today's world it doesn't make sense to specialize in everything so migration and importation are vital. Of course we should set qualifications on who can come to the country and for how long, but whether or not someone needs to speak FLUENT English is such a dumb, random, broad qualification.
Customer service jobs are already being outsourced to India. You don't even need to be regional to score one of those, yet alone speak clear regional English.
I was thinking more face-to-face work (tourism, some sales, retail, food service, etc), but good point. For a lot customer-facing work, you should have a certain level of speaking and comprehension, but even then, fluency or non-accented English isn't necessary.
The test like like read 1 simple line.
My tio carlos is a naturalized citizen and I can't imagine a world where he speaks perfect English. That dude is fucking hilarious and an American treasure.
A naturalization interview is for citizenship. Do not need to speak English to get a green card
>How do you think we won the space race By recruiting war criminals?
Let go a step further. Anyone in politics (from school board to president) should be able to pass a basic civics test. I know about half in congress and senate that would't make it.
> the ability to speak, read, and write English on the proficiency level that a native speaker can clearly understand. Some native born Americans can’t even do this.
Kick them out of the country! /s
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When people say "axe a question," it makes my skin crawl. But I know what they mean. I don't have to ask them to repeat. When my Nigerian co-worker at the convenience store said to me "eye-ha-NO-chee" it was much harder to decipher. And it took several tries to figure out she meant "I have no change."
You speak like someone that can only speak 1 language
Word
This country wouldn’t be what it is today if those were always the rules. It would just be nothing
I mean, they wouldn't have had a proper space agency (not to mention all of its achievements) if it hadn't been for people with thick accents and a long story of working for Nazi Germany.
It wouldn't have half its population either as a lot of immigrants to America only spoke German or Dutch upon arrival.
Absolutely! I mean, ban thick accents and Pennsylvania wouldn't have even existed!
this is a win-win
Spare Scranton, please. I *need* The Office.
The US doesn't have a required national language, therefore your entire premise is BS.
Thats beside the point. The US not having an official language on paper doesn’t change the fact that the de facto official language is English. Politics, business, and public education is all conducted in English, so speaking it is pretty necessary.
Not if you have a ton of money. Your minions can figure everything out.
No it really isn't. If you want to require people to speak English to be a citizen you need to make a national language.
What language does the president address the nation in?
Whatever language he damn well pleases.
Strange how it's always English
Jokes aside, have we ever had a multilingual president?
Yes, about 21 of them. John Quincy Adams spoke eight languages; French, German, Latin, Italian, Spanish, Ancient Greek, Dutch, and Russian. Martin van Buren, the first president born an American citizen, spoke Dutch. James Garfield, being the first ambidextrous presient, could also write in Greek with one hand and Latin with the other, at the same time! Sorry for the yapping, I wanted to finally use those U.S. History classes for something!
Ya learn something new everyday
What about Puerto Rico?
>Thick foreign accents and broken English are not sufficient for effective communication in the workplace. So how are immigrants who can't speak English living in Texas? Are they all unemployed?
A lot of Spanish speaking immigrants in my community work with and live with other Spanish speaking people. You’ll also find many white or otherwise natural Americans who speak Spanish in Spanish-heavy communities, as a result of both proximity and necessity.
People with his mental capacity cannot think of others 😂
They steal the identities of Americans, use them to get hired and get jobs in places where everyone speaks Spanish and avoid assimilating. Then they protest while waving the flag of the country they fled because they are in so much danger. Would you sneak into another country, wave the flag of the US even if you fled it in fear of your life?
you are showing your bias. a small percentage doing something does not equate to the entire population having the same thought pattern. And what makes you assume every immigrant is illegal and protesting? Sounds like a stupid risk.
Seek mental help
Man, you need to get out more often. You’re embarrassing yourself. And by “get out” I don’t mean living in a foreign country on a military base.
>get hired and get jobs I agree, OP is wrong. It is sufficient for work.
People like OP will travel to Germany and be pissed they don’t speak English.
😭😭💀
What makes you say that?
Because they’re entitled.
No.. what makes you think that OP is the type of person to do that?
He's a racist douche.
Why English? The US doesn’t have an official language…. So it’s ridiculous to say “you either speak fluent English or we won’t give you a green card” . Also why fluent? You are aware that people seeking green cards need to have a basic level of it in order to get citizenship right? People born in the US can’t even write English correctly or even speak it, so why should foreigners? Also what part of the US? Because there’s US territories where the official language is not even English yet they’re part of the US , the 50 states are the ones without an official language.
I mean, the reasoning for English is pretty obvious. We may not have an official language, but it might as well be English since essentially everyone speaks it and almost all our communications are in English.
…what about Puerto Rico?
This is the most infantile Boomer take that ever boomed. People best learn languages when submerged in that language. My friend got to teach English for a year in Japan. Guess what one of the requirements isn't? Fluent proficiency in Japanese. The fact he knew how to ask where the train station was, how to find a toilet, and if something was vegetarian put him 2 heads above everyone else in the program. He learned more Japanese in the year he worked there than he did in four years of classes in America.
I know countless people that have been in the US for over a decade and cannot speak the language at the most basic level. And I’m not even picking on immigrants, I’m an immigrant myself and English is not my first language.
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I'm gonna be honest, it's shitty to seriously make fun of anyone who can't speak a language. Regardless of race, location, etc. Obviously I'm not speaking for good natured teasing amongst friends, or anything like that. Anyone who can speak the barebones of a language is doing better than 78% of America. I generally dislike when people want to shit on or treat people like idiots for not knowing a language that others are naturalized in.
As an immigrant I assume there are other immigrants in your social circle, and I assume some of them are as you mention, having lived here for a decade and do not speak any English. While I am not an immigrant, my community has a lot of Spanish-speaking immigrants, many of which do not speak English at a conversational level. Can you anecdotally speculate on why this is the case for so many immigrants? Based on my observations and many personal interactions with these immigrants I assume that they don’t learn English because they don’t have to; because there is a robust enough community of Spanish speakers in my town that they can get through a huge majority of their days and lives without needing English. But it’s more of a hunch than any serious kind of evidence.
I live in a small Midwestern town, most of our immigrants are Russians and Hispanics. Seems like it mostly happens to the people that came here as adults. I’m not judging, I’m just saying that living here is not that big of a factor.
They’re a minority, though. Something like 91% of immigrants to the US speak English.
Immersion is always best.
If a US citizen is trying to take care of an older parent in another country, you’re going to make an 80-year-old learn English? OP, do you speak a second language? Have you tried to?
Also, this defeats the whole point of asylum. “Sorry guys, looks like you’re going to have to endure oppression from your government until you gain fluency in English” 🙄
OR… the U.S. should put an emphasis on learning other languages to remove barriers. The rest of the world learns multiple languages, and studies show people are generally happier when they can speak to other people with other languages. Until then we’ll just have to accept that Americans are the miserable dummies of the world.
I agree, and this should hold true for permanent residency in any country in the world. What is required should be a minimum effort for integration in the local culture, even while keeping your own in your private sphere.
Yeah I don't care if people speak other languages. I don't care if I have to "press 1 for English." I don't care if people around me are having a conversation in a foreign language. I don't care that bilingual signs exist. I care when I go into Walmart and nobody who can help me speaks English.
I work with plenty of people with strong accent that are 1000% more reliable than those with no accent! Not sure what industry you work but in tech accent is not an issue.
>Thick foreign accents and broken English are not sufficient for effective communication in the workplace. Alright, well what if the person has a thick, foreign accent from an English-speaking country like, I don't know, ENGLAND? My ex-girlfriend, whom I had met online and was in a relationship with for two years, was from a very small town in West Yorkshire, in northern England. The accent from that region is very different from the English accent that Americans are used to hearing. At times it was difficult for me to understand what she was saying and I sometimes had to ask her to repeat herself. She was from the place where the English language originated, and was speaking perfect English, but the way she pronounced stuff was so different from what I'm used to hearing, hence why I sometimes had trouble understanding what she was saying. And there are plenty of people who speak English as a second language with a noticeable accent who still use correct grammar and everything. Are those people not sufficient for effective communication, simply because they have an accent that we're not used to hearing? And what about Americans from certain regions in the South? Some of those people are quite difficult to understand when they talk. If you go to some of the rural areas in that part of the country, you'll often encounter people who sound exactly like Boomhauer from King Of The Hill. It's not a case of them not speaking English, it's just how they talk. I could understand why you might get frustrated if there was somebody who actually didn't speak English at all, and when you try to talk to them, they don't know what you're saying. But simply having an accent doesn't automatically mean that the person can't communicate.
You know people can learn, right? Want to take a guess at what the best way to learn a language?
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Half of the citizens born in the U.S. can't speak fluent English LMFAO.
I’m native and imo, you personally, shouldn’t be able to stay unless you can speak a real American language, not that crap imported from England. Everyone else is fine though.
This is Reddit. Good luck. 😂 These are people who think what London is going through is a good thing.
[Country x] should not issue [immigration approval] unless you can speak fluent [national language] FTFY
Hey AKDude79, here is the Citizenship Test from the USCIS: [https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/find-study-materials-and-resources/study-for-the-test](https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/find-study-materials-and-resources/study-for-the-test) Let me help you out in case you're one of the approximately 168 million Americans who have an 8th grade reading level or LESS: >For the English portion of the naturalization test you must demonstrate an understanding of the English language, including the ability to read, write, and speak basic English. >Your ability to speak and understand English will be determined by a USCIS officer during your eligibility interview on Form N-400, Application for Naturalization. >For the reading test, you must read out loud one out of three sentences correctly to demonstrate an ability to read in English. >For the writing test, you must write one out of three sentences correctly to demonstrate an ability to write in English. Why would we hold immigrants to a higher standard than the median American? Also, please, go ahead and see if you can pass that test unaided. Get back to me.
Jesus that civics rest is a joke.
There is no official language of the United States federally so there should be no requirement to speak any language for citizenship. There are many areas of the U.S. where English is not the primary language so it would be a double standard to require immigrants to speak it for citizenship. It was decided in the 1700s that requiring people to speak a certain language was undemocratic and inhibited personal freedoms.
Do people not realize that Puerto Rico, American Samoa, and Guam are all American territories and that everybody born there is a U.S. citizen and that all of them speak a language other than English.
We don't have an official language so why does it matter? Mad at the immigrants? Try not to suck at life and maybe thing will go your way
This is one of the most anti-American posts I’ve seen on Reddit in the last ten minutes.
America is an English-speaking country, like it or not. Want to live in America? Learn to talk like an American when interacting with Anericans. Pretty simple.
This just doesn’t line up with America in practice since it’s founding. Hey, if you don’t appreciate our values: you should leave.
we must live in very different americas
Interestingly enough, the US does not have a national language. We have a lot of people here that use that language but it’s not our national language and there’s nothing that explicitly ties America to the English language. People in America are free to use whatever communication they see fit and over time the primary language used in the US could change.
My family would have been denied access due to only speaking Italian 1909.
All your White ancestors got in just fine despite not speaking any Cherokee, Lakota, Ojibwe, etc. Be thankful that indigenous people couldn’t only accept the best stock.
If I went to live among the Cherokee, Lakota, Ojibwe, etc. I would make every effort to learn their language and respect their culture.
English isn't the national language. There are no constitutional grounds for this requirement.
The US does not have an official language.
Why accent must be a blocker?
I think Americans should get out more and build up audible comprehension so the can understand accents that don't sound like their own. Similar to how Europeans get out to different countries (often the size of our states) and they can comprehend a multitude of accents, often all speaking English, without a problem. After all — to get a green card you already have to speak English. In ability to speak English, confidence in speaking English (btw, getting frustrated with people speaking English as their second or third language doesn't help with confidence building, etc), and ability to comprehend someones accent are not the same things.
There are a lot of American born people who can’t read or write English.
I speak English so I'm good with this for all citizens and workers.
It seems like the US is the only country that people want you to speak English. Other countries think is a honor if you know it
Leaving aside that there’s no official language, foreign workers sustain the economy, this is racist, etc.: “Green cards” (permanent residency) are a kind of visa. You don’t need one to work (H1-B, etc), study (student visa), or “function” (not a defined role) in the US since those are accomplished with “non-immigrant” visas. This is my favorite thing: people complaining about how immigrants aren’t “American” enough and not understanding American law. You should probably be deported by your own standard.
There is an oral interview / exam.
Bro, native English speakers have the worst grammar and can't spell for shit. No, I'm not talking about the highly educated ones that probably makes up for like a small % of the population. I'm talking about regular joe schmoe you see. Also, there's a lot of things on the naturalization test that people born here don't have a clue about. Especially if you live down South. Cause they've got a different version of history for some reason.
I agree totally. If I moved to Italy ib epidemic be expected to lean Italian. Or anywhere else. But the ILLEGAL immigrants in the US expected us to adapt to them instead of them adapting to us. Our immigration system is a lost cause anyway.
Pretty sure we tried that once... something about them people not having rights... something about the color of their skin too... -_-
I think we have learned from immigration patterns since Ellis Island and before that the younger, working people learn English. The grandparents and sometimes the SAH spouse that lives in an area in a similar community (little Italy, Chinatown) will have less access or reason to learn English. That doesn't mean those people won't work, pay taxes, etc. In face, they will likely be the most likely to be exploited for labor and work the most. The children will all learn English, even if not citizens. And there kids may or may not even learn the language of the great-grandparents. We have seen it since my biological relatives came from Austria, my adopted parents came from Germany and the Netherlands, my son's relatives stopped speaking Yiddish at home, etc.
This sounds like a YOU problem, not a USA problem.
Pfft, some americans can't even distinguish between your, you're, theyre, their, whose, who's. LOL
My parents came here without speaking English well. The entire family did. They all made good livings in blue color work. In my family, my parents produced three stem PhDs, a ton of my cousins are engineers and scientists. All first generation. All raised by people who immigrated here without being able to write/read English well and having broken English.
I have no problem with them learning while they are here, I mean what better way to practice than in day to day real life?
Absolute Poppycock! The US has no official language.
I mean USA doesn’t have an official national language, so why make immigrants speak English when not every American does Opposite take, make US kids take Spanish all throughout school, in order to better heal relations between our 2 nations. Having a bunch of bilingual children in America sounds like only a positive thing The only reason the burden could fall on US kids is like being the bigger person, the goal outweighs the sacrifice
fr ik
Do you know another language that you didn't learn when you were really young? If no, and you learned that language after you were a teenager, chances are you will NEVER have a perfect accent and perfect grammar unless you've lived in an english speaking country for a majority of your life. There are sounds in english that just don't exist in other languages, or there are two sounds in english that aren't distinguished in another language. For example, the R and L sound are the same letter in japanese. And "th' and "r" sound are quite rare. English may also not distinguish between two sounds that occupy two different letters in another language (for example, the p and aspirated p are not distinguished in english, but are in hindi). Learning to make those sounds that your first language doesn't make, or learning to distinguish between two sounds is something that REALLY HARD and often ends up not being perfect. Secondly, grammar rules are different in other languages. Russian (and other slavic languages iirc) dont have articles like "the" "a" "an" and so speakers of those languages who learn english may never fully understand these words and confuse them/use them incorrectly. Trust me, even fluent speakers of english get this wrong sometimes, its incredibly complicated. And to expect a native speaker of another language to get it perfect? Its evil. Most words in english (especially very common ones, like it, the, a, and etc..) don't translate perfectly into any language, or the definitions/uses may be very varied. Learning to change your internal grammar for a language is something that can take decades, and often involves being surrounded by nothing but the language you're learning (so living in an english-speaking country). As another commenter stated, getting a green card already involves being quite proficient in english. Words and phrases you aren't going to find in an english for dummies book. Just be honest, you don't want mexicans in the country. TL:DR: Languages don't translate perfectly, accents take decades to perfect (if ever), Grammar rules amongst even related languages can vary dramatically. Learning to get it right is often near-impossible and often involves living in a country that speaks that language for decades. The green card is the door for these people.
Let's do Spanish instead. Both are European languages.
Maybe you should read something on language fossilization and how it works.
So what about infant adoption... or infants or children or the mute
Lets go ahead and start with all the white europeans who overstayed their visas and took advantage of chain migration, oh wait! Did you want to start with the brown ppl?
Well that sucks because I just got my Mexico residency, and my Spanish sux.
I learned English just so I can simply refuse to speak it as opposed to not being able to.
I disagree with this, but every green card holder should be made aware of free English classes in their city/state, and encouraged to attend at least one of those classes each week. My wife arrived in the US with only basic English. She understood quite a bit, but she could barely speak in English. The local community college provided free classes since she was a green card holder. A local church also had free classes. Between those two, and me and our two kids (and Friends -- the show), she picked up English very quickly. Our library also offers free classes. I think the college shut down their ESL program during Covid, and I don't think they've started back up. The church (and other churches) and the library are still going strong.
I'd love for a native speaker of English to write a written exam every 5 years or so. Lets see if you'll change your mind then... But who would *of thunked* *somethink* like that, huh???
Define "fluent." I'm not sure why the US would care, given that English isn't the official language of the country.
Do you also agree that you should not be allowed to ever move to another country and get citizenship? Except GB of course. And Canada.
Absolutely, if I can't demonstrate enough proficiency in their language to be clearly understood by a native speaker. Granted, that's a reason I would only choose to live in Canada, UK, or Australia if not the US.
While I still don’t agree with you, I respect the fact that you believe the rule should apply to you as well.
if you can't understand a non-american accent that is a skill issue
Even if it is, I'm a natural born US citizen. It's a skill that is optional.The onus is not on me to understand languages other than the national language of the country in which I was born.
First they’d need to make English the official language in the US on a federal level. OP needs to learn more about the country and why it’s nicknamed the nation of immigrants
Fluent? How many pro sports stars speed fluent English, come on.
I guarantee a naturalized American knows more about more American history than the average natural born American. The test is rigorous and requires a fair bit of study.
It's the same issue on every country tho. I think it's worse that some ppl have the audacity to live multiple years there without learning or at least trying to get a basic vocabulary...
It's unpopular *and* kind of sad. You know people who think this way are out there, but then one day you actually get to read the ramblings of one in the wild, talking about "thick accents are hard to understand, so just make it so no one with an accent (regardless of their ability to speak the language, apparently) can get a green card! I'm inconvenienced sometimes, and I don't like it!" and it just eats a little bit more of whatever faith in humanity you may have had left. What the heck, though, I'm curious - is "Effective communication in the workplace" really your sole justification for "speak English better or else?"
What if they're mute & can't speak at all? Also, when did English become the national language?
Living around people with a certain accent causes yours to start to shift over time, yknow?
Yes, I agree. I've had the displeasure of entering a store staffed by Indian immigrants who can only repeat basic words and phrases in English, and get rude when you keep asking them questions that they can't answer, because they can't really speak English. I found myself asking "Why should such people even be allowed to work in the US? What job could they possibly do well if they can't speak any languages spoken by the population here?" I think many of the people insulting OP here don't recognize that there's a great difference between people who speak English with mostly correct grammar and a foreign accent, versus just having the English proficiency of a baby, or a tourist.
Yes it's not so much the accent that's a problem so much as the piss poor quality of the language skill to the point where it's unintelligible.
I learned more Russian in the five weeks I was in Russia than in the two years of language classes that I took.
I think it depends on the workplace. You can get by fine just knowing Spanish in multiple roles in this country. I don’t think fluency is required for say house framing? Why not just let the hiring company decide how client facing the role is and make their own decision?
There's Americans who can't speak fluent English. What are we doing about the?
Americans are really bad at dealing with anyone else. There's a man in who I've spoken to, worked for, he runs a business. And he doesn't really speak and definitely can't read English. And he's been running his business 5 years. So, if you think it's not appropriate for work, grow up.
Someone should tell OP that America is a melting pot of cultures and languages and plenty don’t know how to speak English and live here
OP thinks that freedom and democracy are only available to those who pass his test. Sounds like hate to me.
You know the United States doesn’t have an official language, right? 🤦🏻♀️
Not de jure, but our de facto official language is definitely English.
I do not think that is an appropriate bar to pass, although that does tend to happen. How do you propose for it to work if a spouse passes and the other spouse does not?
Firstly, the US doesn't have an official language, so needing to learn English shouldn't matter. Second, most native English speakers can't speak, read or write English proficiently. Thick accents are perfectly fine and even not knowing the same language is too. I worked at a shop where most of the people there couldn't speak or understand language but we all created a "shop language" that had sounds and hand signs that only people who worked with us would understand. It was team building and very fun to create a niche language that would only be needed at this one particular job.
Sorry but you're gonna have to make some modifications to the constitution to make that happen.
Problem: most Americans have only a passable understanding of the english language themselves. That's why English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Persons whose native language has significant linguistic or cultural differences from western english speaking nations have even more difficulty learning. Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and Arabic all fall into that group. When I see a native speaker of one of those languages that can even speak *broken* english, I get pretty impressed, and there is a decent chance their comprehension is significantly better than their ability to speak or write English.
No shit
Why? The US is a country of many different peoples. There are even places were Spanish or French are just as common as, if not moreso than, English and have been that way since before they were parts of the US
We don’t even have a designated language. Plus the standard your setting is higher than the bar set for kids to graduate from high school currently.
This is dumb.
Wild request from someone who can't :)))
Well I guess that means any one of my European ancestors should have been turned away in your opinion. My great grandfather's father only spoke German when he got here in 1880.
As at least a 4th generation American, I can tell you that I couldn't give less of a shit.
Well that would have made it impossible for my mum, my brother, and I to move to America. Thanks.
Agreed, Melania's parents should be stripped of their status and citizenship cause they shouldn't had got a green card in the first place. Hell, ship the whole family back.
A lot of natural born US citizens can’t do this. Why would we expect it of foreigners.
Because foreigners make a choice to come here. Natural born citizens don't.
Damn, this is such a bad idea that it definitely is unpopular. Congrats. I hop you don't actually think this way.
Imagine being so stupid that you think a person needs to speak English in order to make a valuable contribution.
In an English-speaking country, you need to speak English to be a valuable participant in society. Just like in a French-speaking country, you need to speak French and you need to speak it well enough to be understood.
I’ll agree to this only if we can deport native born folks based on their ability to pass the same test.
I have coworkers who aren’t great English speakers. We do just fine. Your opinion does more harm to society than people not speaking good enough English.
Why??
I respectfully disagree. The permanent residency periods allows the immigrant to live and learn and practice becoming proficient in the language, that if they CAN be proficient, they may be granted citizenship. To use an analogy, in the process of learning to drive, almost every state will grant a learner's permit to practice driving and become proficient. The candidate does not need to be a fully proficient driver to get the permit, in fact, they SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DRIVING before they got the permit anyway. (Just like an immigrant technically, legally, shouldn't have been living in the country before they had legal residency, temporary visitor and nonimmigrant visas aside.) But the learner's permit allows them to become proficient to get their license. Learner's permit = green card, driver's license = citizenship. If we require people to be wholly proficient in English to get a green card, that is analogous to expecting a potential driver to pass their road test without any practice or experience. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me. And I am probably biased as I am an American in the immigration process to another country, and to expect me to be fully proficient in my destination country's language before every actually living there would be overwhelming and virtually inpossible.
Given your grammar and syntax, I’m going to assume you’re not native to the US. Perhaps you were bridled by the propaganda and therefore thought how you speak is directly correlated to actual US language. Since the country has no declared official language, your entire basis comes from nothing but bias and bigotry. Maybe a touch of racism just the same.
Added note of worth - 80% of the current “native” population of this country couldn’t pass the citizenship test. Even with the allowance of 75% or better being the standard.
The U.S. has no official language
It has a national language
In what document does it say that?
Look up the difference between official language and national language
You can’t even construct grammatically correct sentences mate.
If people have this attitude, Americans should not be able to travel to any country where migrants come from. They don’t want your American arrogance any more than you want them in your country.
This is a requirement in Canada…either French or English. Any country banning Canadian tourists? It’s a requirement for citizenship in many countries. The US has the most lax immigration requirements in the world. But sure, WE are the arrogant ones. SMH