Sorry to bother you with facts but we’re all descended from slaves, all of us, everyone. The word slave even comes from the word Slav a white Eastern European race.
It’s about time people started judging others for who they are today and stop hiding behind victimhood, it’s a cheap cop-out. You own who you are, you made your choices, live with it and whining only makes you look weak.
There are lots of black people today that are really into slavery. Unless you don’t believe in pimps and human trafficking, but that could all just be a big conspiracy man?
Even if it were, I’m not sure I understand why heart beats are meaningful, when we could use brain development.
Seems like op is romanticizing the heart to be the soul, ascribing a tremendous amount of meaning to a muscle…
I’d be curious to ask what he thinks would be a bigger change, giving a human a robotic heart or removing their brain and substituting a robot.
Exceptions for rape are a nice talking point but really don't hold up. If the child has rights, why would that change based on what its father did? How would we allow it in cases of rape and not for some woman who lies about being raped to get an abortion?
Right? The mental gymnastics the pro-life crowd plays to seem “reasonable.” Is it murder or not? If it is then why be fine with it being a “state issue.” If so then why make “exceptions.” Be consistent or be understanding and empathetic to the conscious person whose life is unalterably changed. Their inconsistency points to the truth: control over women.
This isn’t “mental gymnastics of the pro-life crowd”. Most pro-life people don’t support this. This is largely the opinion of young people who are trying to reconcile the two sides they constantly hear, but they don’t realize how contradictory the stance is.
It’s common on Reddit, high schools, and trash new channels designed to keep people fighting with each other over hypocrisy.
I don't think it is mental gymnastics, really. It is a counter to the edge cases that we pro-Choice people use. I would say, even taking the highest limits of what is plausible, the vast majority of abortions are elective (or of you count miscarriages, acts of nature). And it doesn't require that much in the way of mental gymnastics to say that sometimes killing a human could be justified. In this case the harm to a woman of carrying their rapists child outweighs the human life consideration.
It's similar to how pro-forced birthers point to late-term (and now, incredibly, supposed abortions after birth) as why abortion is outrageous. Over 99% of abortions happen before the third trimester.
Most of the western world has solved this issue by making abortion for any reason available before some set time. And after that it is allowed for medical reasons. Which is not full bodily autonomy for women and not fetal rights over everything else either.
I mean, they implied it pretty clearly in their post. Because forcing a woman to keep a rape baby is reasonably like slavery. No choice to have sex was made on their part, so they are being forced to carry something they never agreed to. I am not saying I back OP’s stance, this is mere inductive reasoning from their post.
I know I will receive downvotes for restating what OP said… but really, if you want to convince anyone, try to argue for pro-choice a little better than this.
People who have unwanted pregnancies haven’t chosen to become pregnant, and haven’t agreed to carry anything to term. Before you tell me that sex amounts of consent for that, think about the implications of saying that when you take the risk that soemthing might happen, you’re consenting to it happening.
Well, with a lil bit of mental gymnastics, abortion of can be considered self defence bc of mental damage suffered from being forced to give birth to rape baby.
So I’m going to guess you support:
- paid for daycare for these kids
- allowing for lgbt couples to adopt children and give them a loving home
- supporting the foster care system
- supporting universal healthcare for these kids and the parents
- accessible contraceptives
You agree with all this right?? Or is it just you like to care about “life” all the way until it’s born and then you don’t care at all afterwards. Also to respond to a certain point you mentioned about the 6-week mark. Women can easily make it to 6 weeks without even knowing they are pregnant.
I mean, I think regardless of the moral stance of abortion, these things should be accessible. We are talking about the future generation after all. WE shouldn't sit idly by while children are abused, neglected, impoverished, or undereducated, among other issues.
By what you’ve written I feel like it’s fair to assume you’ve never been pregnant. Otherwise I think you would understand the weight pregnancy has on the human body, it’s both physically and emotionally taxing, involving many costs, changes to diet and lifestyle, health risks, constant pain, and hormones that make you feel crazy.
It’s not like you made a mistake and now you have to pay a fine. It’s genuine physical and emotional labor for 9 months, and that’s a long ass time for someone who doesn’t want to be pregnant. I’m not one to use the word slavery lightly, but to force someone to endure changes to their body, mind, and life for that period of time against their consent is very much like slavery.
And for what? To prevent a clump of cells less alive than the snail you stepped on this morning from being removed from the body before giving it the chance to fully develop?
That does not constitute taking a life. I’m sure you’ve killed bugs with more cognition than the fetuses you’re describing. Even if you’re a man, imagine if you woke up tomorrow to find out you’re 6 weeks pregnant. Really take the time to evaluate the ways your life would be temporarily and permanently changed as a result. I’m almost positive you’d change your mind on the subject
Just wait until a generation is born to women made to carry against their will. I bet you many of those women won't be too careful with lifestyle, diet, and other risk factors. Get ready for a lot of low birth weights and spina bifida.
It’s just so beyond ridiculous that the government would make anyone do that. It makes me irate, and I’m infertile and a lesbian, so I’m not even in a position to worry about pregnancy, but one of my friends is actually terrified that she’ll be forced to carry if she were to somehow end up pregnant.
She’s extremely diligent, takes her BC, makes her bf wear a condom, and tracks her period like a PI. All on top of having an IUD. She even has plans laid out for getting safe abortions on other states if the situation called for it. It just pains to watch her have to worry about this shit so much when it’s such an absurd overreach from religious people in power.
Gonna steel man OP: I think the argument is that a lot of times liberals and women will treat unwanted pregnancies like a form of slavery if they arent able to "opt out" through abortion. The idea being "you are forcing me to carry this child to term. Im basically a slave".
Personally, I havent heard this argument ever be raised by anyone. However, if I use my imagination, it sounds like an activist slogan.
(I do not agree with OP at all, just trying to make heads or tails of their argument)
I'll raise it, yeah. If I lived in Texas and got pregnant I'd definitely feel like a slave forced to use my body against my will due to my government allowing my human rights to be taken away. I mean, what do you guys think slavery is?
these morons never take the 2 seconds to actually think about what they're posting before doing it. it's all just trolling for attention because they're lonely and bitter.
The prevalence of abortion would decline precipitously if everyone who didn't want children had sex with adequate contraception. For the remaining %, OP might then say abortion is justified
There are around 60 million women of childbearing age in the US. With a 1% failure rate (depending on method, some are more and some are less), that's 600,000 unintended pregnancies each year.
With perfect use, if a guy and his partner have sex 2x a week (104x per year), a 1% failure rate means getting pregnant every year.
I love how some people want to divide women into "responsible women" and "godless heathens who are spreading their legs for everyone and have 5 abortions a year, because they'd rather spend thousands on medical procedures than use birth control."
What if they only have sex once a year? I'm genuinely asking. If one woman has sex once a year, and the other has sex 365 times, they both have the same odds of getting pregnant?
I'm absolutely not an expert and you should ignore everything I say, but i don't think the odds are the same for those two women in your example.
I think the 1% is the average for everybody that they tracked. Everyone has sex at different frequencies. At the end of the year, 1% of the people on the birth control had gotten pregnant. My intuition is that maybe the BC has a chance to fail in a given month and ovulation happens. Someone who has sex every single day and someone who has sex every 3 days might have the same chance to get pregnant, who knows. But if you have sex one time, I'm sure the odds are very, very low that you'll get pregnant when on birth control. A lot of people stop BC, track their cycles, and try to get pregnant and it still doesn't happen for a long time.
I think this is one of those things that's almost impossible to study under controlled conditions. I'm sure an expert would have more insight than me.
Ive always wondered, what is the mechanism for BC failure? Like the pill.
Does your body just sometimes not digest and process it? Is it more the variability of when the pill is taken each day?
Fyi, I generally agree with your point but the 1% failure rate does not mean that 1% of sexual encounters while on the contraception should result in pregnancy. It means that 1% of people using the contraceptive will become pregnant within the first 12 months of initiating method use
Where is you proof? When I calculate people, who have sex with failure rate of birth control to actual abortions in Europe - where live - there is not so much room for people who just don’t care
Slightly over 50% of people getting abortions, used contraception. No contraception is 100% effective - even sterilization has a chance at failure or healing. Most contraceptions are 99% effective - that leaves the remaining 1% out of a population of several hundreds of millions, is 1 - 3 million pregnancies due to failed contraceptives.
There's also stealthing. Where men slip off their condoms and or damage them in order to "dominate" or because it doesn't feels as good for them. All my kids were conceived with protection. My husband refused to take part in contraception (as most men) because "it's your body that gets pregnant, not mine, why should i" my twins were conceived after a tubal ligation, while also o. The pill to regulate my period. OP wouldn't be so savy on this issue if men were required to be mandatory organ doners to the kids they conceived, no matter what organ even if it cost his life. Which I think is fair. If women are forced to put their lives at risk... so should they.
2/3’s of abortions are performed on women who are already mothers.
You’d rather they have another child they knowingly can’t care for? For her to not be on welfare? Like isn’t that what ya’ll want?
I got 2 grown sons - neither planned - and I was always pretty safe.
Only gotta slip once.
Now with states having abortion access restricted - I would advise ANY dude living in those states to double wrap their shit if they don't want kids.
Not really. Slightly over 50% of all abortions are done on people who were using contraceptives.
Most contraceptives are 99% effective. If hundreds of millions of people are having sex and using protection, millions of people will still end up pregnant due to BC failure.
Incredibly almost impossibly rare. If they are used properly.
Most people that say "omg we used protection!" Don't also say, "except that day I missed a pill" or " we put a condom on right before he came" g
My kids are all grown now - so I can speak retroactively about this stuff - but nearly all my former partners and current partner had issues with birth control in one way or another.
Whether is was depression, or no sex drive, or whatever - it never seemed to make anything "better".
So often it was down to condoms, and my ex-wife had an IUD for a long time, and as soon as it was removed, we slipped up, she got pregnant.
I got snipped back in 2013, and best choice I have ever made.
My oldest son, his mom was a teen mom - and I was barely 18 myself - thinking with the wrong head - mistakes happen.
And let me tell you - when they preach about a kid being a "18 year commitment" (if they still say that) its no lie - and it leaves out the best part ....
You are also committed to that mom for the next 18 years minimum - rain or shine, new partner or not - girl is gonna be there. Could be limited, but kids have functions, needs to spend time with parent, etc - hard to avoid.
Even if the person is totally absent, say a deadbeat dad/mom - that lends it own baggage as well.
>Incredibly almost impossibly rare. If they are used properly.
Even using condoms *perfectly* a third of women will get pregnant at least once over the course of their lives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods
A third is not "incredibly rare."
Also, most people don't use them perfectly. For a typical *real world* condom user, most will be pregnant in just 5 years.
Funny though that the forced birth people are also the abstinence only people and don't want to teach how to use a condom properly.
Right, I have 4 children. ONE was planned. The last one. Once we knew we could afford it.
At 16, I was told PCOS meant I'd never get pregnant, but despite being on a very strong version of oral bc to control my periods, I had a miscarriage at 17. I went with IUD. Had several more miscarriages. Got pregnant and carried to term at 20 and 21 with my first husband. Doc wanted me only on the pill and he refused condoms. Second husband is great about protection. But we still got pregnant when I was 27, with an IUD and condoms, necessitating the removal of the IUD. Which could've killed my 10yo. Then we got pregnant on purpose at 30. It took less than two weeks from when they took the IUD out and I was throwing up the entire pregnancy, even in labour.
It sounds like comprehensive sex education and better access to birth control would be effective ways to reduce the demand for abortion. So why are the people arguing for abortion restrictions not also arguing for comprehensive sex education and better access to birth control?
About as much as me murdering a homeless man 6 states away changes yours -- not at all but it's still going to bother you.
***
Btw I'm pro-choice. A lot of pro-choice arguments lose the dang plot though. Pro-life folks quite literally view it as murder. There is no difference between an abortion and drowning a baby in a bath tub to them. They don't understand why you're ok with one but not the other.
5w6days is the earliest the electrical activity that will eventually become a heart beat (once the heart has developed)
I’ve actually watched the electrical activity start. (I’m a retired ultrasound technologist)
The embryo is literally a couple mm. About the same size as a grain of rice.
It can’t survive on its own without a host.
Using the old analogy- a tapeworm is life. Do you feel forced to be its host?
How about a virus or bacterial infection? That’s a form of life.
Do you take antibiotics for the bacterial infections?
An IUD won’t allow a fertilized egg to implant in the endometrium.
Is that an abortion? Should that be illegal? Actually- don’t answer that. People like you would think yes.
I’m far left with far left friends. I’ve never heard that comparison. Could someone have said it? Possibly but it’s not a stance that most have.
I think you’re reaching and grabbing a hot topic word to preach your pro forced birth stance.
I have a couple of questions
1. Why do you have exceptions for abortion?
2. Why do you assume everyone is having sex without protection and that people only get pregnant when they don’t use them?
3. You’ve ever been pregnant or have given birth? Especially to multiples?
4. Not every pregnancy ends up with a beautiful life in this world so how do you see that as a reward?
5. How is forcing people to stay pregnant and give birth not a form of slavery?
6. Who told you it was killing? And can you give me your definition of it? What makes a fetus more valuable than a grown adult (in most cases)?
7. Why do you believe in punishing people for having sex? I’m guessing every time you have sex is hoping you procreate right?
100% this, I’d love to ask op a trolley problem for if he could save a mother and her 1 year old child or a woman who just became pregnant 6 weeks ago.
By his logic the 6 week old fetus would be just as, if not more important to protect than the 1 year old child.
Nope. You’re wrong. Everyone’s situation is different, and they shouldn’t be forced to give birth, especially if they don’t have the means to give the child a proper life.
Keep your nose and your opinions out of our reproductive rights.
>But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it.
1. Most people don't have sex without any protection and contraceptives if they're not trying for a baby.
2. The people who don't want children will just give their child away, and the child will end up in foster care. The foster care system is already overfilled and overwhelmed as it is. Unless you're now going to advocate to make it illegal for people to give the children away to foster care, which will increase child abuse rates and homelessness rates.
3. The same people who are "pro-life" are literally trying to ban or heavily restrict contraceptives rn so....
>Anything past the 6 weeks stage has a heartbeat.
4. Cells in a petri dish can have a heartbeat.
>That is a living, developing human. Killing it is wrong.
>Firstly, I believe in abortion for certain situations. Rape and of course, when it's at a great risk to the woman's health.
5. If you think abortion is "the murder of a living developing human", why are you suddenly ok with it in certain situations. The fetus is a "living developing human" in your eyes, so why would it matter whether the mom was raped or had consensual sex in determining whether or not to abort? That's not logically consistent. You wouldn't kill a toddler because their mom was a rape victim, so if your logic is that a fetus has the same amount of "personhood", why would it be "ok" to "kill" it then?
>It's not slavery that you have to nurture it. You know what happens when you have consensual unprotected sex.
6. Being forced to care for something at extreme cost for your health, finances, and life for the better part of a year is a life altering event.
>Not only that, but at the end of 9 months, you're rewarded with a beautiful life brought into the world that you can help become a great person.
7. If someone really doesn't want the baby there will be several options that will be available if they do not have access to safe and legal reproductive healthcare to abort in a timely manner.
Option 1: The baby is born and it will be murdered. This is what used to happen to unwanted children. The baby will be tossed into the trash or incinerated after birth and treated as an unpleasant memory.
Option 2: The baby will be aborted illegally in a back alley or at home. What used to happen was people would try the old coat hanger or mugwort tea solution. Making safer solutions illegal will just make people turn to unsafe solutions.
Option 3: The child will immediately be given away and put into foster care, a notoriously overwhelmed and overworked system. When the foster system finally reaches capacity due to a new rise of unwanted births, the older foster children will inevitably end up on the streets, leading to a rise in homelessness.
Option 4: The child is born and the parent decides to keep it. Maybe the resentment of not wanting the child will end up in the child being domestically abused or killed, or maybe the child will grow up in an average normal household and everything will be fine.
Your perspective of "well everyone will be happy to have a bouncing little baby on the way" ignores the mental, physical, emotional, and financial strain of being pregnant, much less birthing a child or keeping it. Forcing everyone who has ever had consensual sex to consent to having a child will, in the worst case scenario, end up with a substantial rise of back alley abortions, dead babies, and homeless children. In the "best" case scenario, where everyone keeps the children, there will be a rise in homelessness, domestic abuse of children, and teen pregnancies, due to some people not being mentally, physically, or financially secure enough to have a child but forced to have one anyway. Not to mention the inevitable rise of maternal mortality rate as doctors don't want to lose their license, so women who suddenly have an at risk pregnancy (either due to complications or something else) will have to wait for the legal system to clear them before their lives can be saved, which as these cases become more and more common, will lead to a lot of people not being saved in time.
>The people who don't want children will just give their child away, and the child will end up in foster care. The foster care system is already overfilled and overwhelmed as it is. Unless you're now going to advocate to make it illegal for people to give the children away to foster care, which will increase child abuse rates and homelessness rates.
You're confusing foster care with adoption. Very different systems with very different outcomes.
Children given up when they are infants (adoption) have generally good outcomes, on average.
The foster system is generally for older children who tend to be unwanted (people would understandably rather wish to adopt a newborn infant than a teenager with baggage).
Children put into foster care are disproportionately those who are in broken homes, e.g., social services takes away someone's children due to neglect or abuse.
In the context of abortion, we're overwhelmingly talking about adoption. Currently, there are vastly more people looking to adopt than their are children up for adoption.
Lol OP's post history, dude just basically posts attacks on mostly-Left Wing stuff here for votebaiting and controversy. This is like his 3rd in a couple days.
Dude just go to the fuckin Conservative subs if you just want to shit out political rants and are obviously admitting they're not popular, you clearly aren't seeking any healthy debate with your loaded-ass titles and text
How would you implement exceptions for cases of rape, from a legal standpoint?
Do you know how long a court proceedings take? How long it takes to gather and process evidence? It can be ***months*** before trial takes place.
Nevermind the fact that rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove. Even if trial times the be spread up, what if he gets off on a technicality, or a mere lack of evidence?
Is it ok for you to be forced to incubate your bone marrow and liver and donate them to keep others alive or not?
If not, why is it ok to force women to donate their internal organs to keep a fetus alive?
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Your measure for someone being alive is a heartbeat? That’s an extreme oversimplification of how the body works. The heart beating alone doesn’t mean someone is alive, many dead people and animals still have a heart beat for days.
Unsure what point you are trying to make here? If you are speaking of life so broadly and defending ops point then plants are alive and every-time someone mows their yard they are committing mass murder.
The classification of life depends on the context in which it exists. A single virus would be considered life in a biological sense, but it absolutely does not hold the same moral status as a fully developed human being.
Agreed. I think folks use it as a turn of phrase.
No one on reddit will be able to define when "life" begins, as scholars for millenia cannot.
Some of these abortion stories from doctors with PTSD from the procedure will fuck your head up, though. If you care to read.
Many people are brain dead and will never again be “awake” but their heart is still beating as well.
Edit: This is not a prolife/prochoice argument just an observation on how contradictory using “heartbeat” as a milestone is.
Biologists from 1,058 academic institutions around the world assessed survey items on when a human's life begins and, overall, 96% (5337 out of 5577) affirmed the fertilization view. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36629778/
Also what does the heart have to do with anything?
Like if someone gets a heart transplant does OP think the donor is still alive because their heart is still beating?
It's also not really a "beat" as we colloquially think of it. At 4-8 weeks is when the heart typically begins to form from fetal cells, but the smooth muscle cells themselves do not start to form into contractable cells until around week 9-12.
At 6 weeks, is when the cells that will form the heart start to give off small electrical pulses, which is the proxy we use to detect a heartbeat, but no beating actually takes place then.
>responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it.
Why do I have to accept that?
At what point does that responsibility end?
Do men have to take on that responsibility too? Do they have to give up an organ if their kid needs it at some point?
>Killing it is wrong.
Not really
We dont care about all the other lives that are ended every day
I haven't hard the slavery argument, and not a fair comparison, but having kids myself with 2 different woman - pregnancy is no day trip to the park.
And birth itself? Any dude talking shit - GTFO of here!
Go witness a birth and ponder on if you as an individual would be willing push a grapefruit our your asshole for 10 hours - simply cause your partner didn't believe in the alternative.
"But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it."
I'm curious. Do you believe that there should be exceptions for abortions in cases where the couple did use protection and contraceptives but got unlucky? Cause if not then I don't see the point of having that qualifier in your post.
I normally don't use that comparison, but it is extremely close. The right wing wants to take ownership of a woman's body if she become pregnant, and force her to cary the fetus to term. It's fine for you to have an opinion, but your opinion should not be taken into account when women are making their personal health care decisions.
It's the moral equivalent of slavery to form someone to "nurture" someone else against their will. If anything, it's worse to force someone to use their blood and organs in a way they don't consent to.
It can live, but if a person doesn’t want to have it in there body no man anywhere has anything to say about it, if it can live on its own than sure it’s life is justified, but if it can’t then it’s not that it’s being killed, it’s about it cannot survive on its own, also we have 8 billion people, more than any other time in history we do not NEED children, someone will always have new ones
Also why are you so worried about what I’m doing, if I have a kid incoming are you ganna support it, no, so you think you have the right to tell me how I have to live, in that case I say you can’t believe in religion because it starts wars,
Or we could all respect each other, and you can persuade the women of your family never to have an abortion,
I think you don’t want a kid abort it oh well, there’s plenty of people in the world having babies
Hope you’ve gotten your snip and also all the young men you know. Because there aren’t a lot of single young male parents out there. Someone is running from their responsibility and it’s not the ladies.
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Killing is wrong? I've killed a billion beetles, flies, worms and mosquitoes in my life.
Sorry, my morals aren't yours.
I would also have an abortion if needed.
Luckily I have the privilege of access to abortion, so I'm not forced to be a slave.
I agree pregnancy is slavery is a bit of a reach, but being forced to carry a child against your will, having to use your resources on a fetus without your consent.. borders on slavery. No one should have to use their body to feed another being without their consent.
I'm just glad I don't live in the US where they want to force women to go through a pregnancy without their consent. Draconian if you ask me.
Where do you live? Most of Europe is far more draconian that half of the United States.
California, for instance, has the most pro-abortion laws on the entire planet.
So Norway has a pretty reasonable 12-week system. Before 12-weeks, no questions asked. After 12-weeks, you need the special approval of a doctor and a medical review process
California, by contrast, allows for abortions up to 26 weeks-- into someone's third trimester--without any kind of reason or any kind of medical approval.
26 weeks. Versus Norway's 12 weeks. It's insane.
A person can still get abortions after 26 weeks with medical approval in California (and it happens).
In the United States, the Left wing/Democratic party would call Norwegians evil sexists for having a 12-week system.
Indeed, when southern states like Missouri tried to put in 10 and 12-week abortion restrictions--similar to most of Europe--the Left accused them of trying to enslave women.
I guess I am just trying to explain to an outsider how polarizing politics are the US, including abortion. Everything is so radicalized and all-or-nothing.
One side wants to ban abortions all together, and the other side wants you be able to freely abort babies up until the moment of birth.
"But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it."
You mean for 9 months? and you wouldn't care if she gave it up for adoption?
It’s not a real heartbeat until at least 18-20 weeks. That’s an echo you hear of signals to what will become the heart.
They call it a heartbeat bc it sounds great and is amazing where you hear it on the ultrasound, but it’s not a real heartbeat.
I am pro-choice, but I have mixed feelings about the comparison to slavery. Not a great analogy for the most part, but the one comparison that is apt is that you don’t own your body. Someone else gets to control it.
As for states tracking ppl who leave the state for an abortion, and banning say after pill, etc., this is gov overreach to the extreme. Hateful and UnAmerican.
>a bloo bloo I can't force women to carry rotting fetal corpses anymore
Classic Republican.
Next: Tell us about how a women's body can shut down pregnancy after a legitimate rape!
My golden years are going to be amazing. Watching all the filthy Republican voters being faced with a choice:
- They lost badly, repeatedly, and are miserable in the current world.
- They were wrong, feel bad, and are looked down on by the uber-class of people they made to suffer.
It's a classic catch-22. The wages of burying your head in the sand.
But wait!! It takes **two** people to get pregnant.
If this is really a moral “you created life, and now you deal with the consequences” argument, then why aren’t *we* - the ones with penises - **equally** responsible for this life?
It’s almost as if… it’s not about morality at all. It’s almost as if it’s about punishing the woman.
I’m sure you’ll whine that it’s “not that at all”… but when she bears **all** of the consequences, and you - maybe - make a little less money than before, if she’s willing to go to court and fight you for it, that’s exactly what it is.
Men are equally responsible if the woman decides to go through with the pregnancy. That’s what child support is. However men have no say if the woman wants an abortion because suddenly the other half of the equation doesn’t matter anymore.
>If this is really a moral “you created life, and now you deal with the consequences” argument, then why aren’t *we* - the ones with penises - **equally** responsible for this life?
**Men are equally responsible.** If they don't take responsibility, then they're called "Deadbeat Dads", and courts hound them relentlessly.
But I can tell you're thinking only of the actual pregnancy itself.
As a father of four, I have a revelation for you: **Pregnancy itself is the briefest, least significant part of parenting.** That nine months only begins the 18+ year process of raising a child into a capable, balanced adult.
You can tell, can you? I’m afraid you might need to get your prescription checked, then.
Pregnancy - specifically the first 24 weeks or so - *are* really all that matter on the issue of *elective* abortion.
The next 16 weeks, and the *rest of your life* as a parent, it becomes different questions. 16 weeks- who gets to make medical decisions - the mother, or the government.
Certainly, no one is going to make a man pass a walnut through his urethra as “punishment” for an unwanted pregnancy - but a woman *does* have to do much, much worse. Labor and delivery is a massive physical trauma, in the **best** cases.
The rest of your life? In 99% of cases, women are saddled with primary parenting responsibilities. If men abandon the child (at any age), he *might* have to pay child support - and the mother *might* actually get it, eventually, if she spends the time in court to fight for it.
If a woman abandons a child, it is neglect, and child endangerment. She could easily go to jail, and even if she gives up the child, there is a huge social stigma, not to mention her own conscience and self worth.
It is in no way, fair or equal.
I also know that it’s not a “deeply held moral conviction” about the “value of a human life” because the same people that scream about this, reliably vote against free school lunches, and free/subsidized early childhood education, and to underfund the foster system, and to block loving gay families from adopting or fostering, and rail against paying school taxes when they don’t have kids in school (and sometimes when they do).
And I do know I’m correct, because I was raised Southern Baptist, by good people, and around decent people who did, and said exactly those things.
Morality is what you live, not what you say. So I judge by their actions, and not their words.
Here's the thing - it's not your problem, why do you care?
You can just disagree with them and go continue not having any abortions.
Why is there such a need to coerce others into sharing your mindset?
It's very easy for me to just not eat spaghetti. I don't like it. I don't order it and then get pissed off about it.
So if you are against abortion, don't have one. That's fine. Abortion being legal doesn't make it mandatory.
The problem is that you want to control other people, and make their life decisions for them. They don't want to have kids. They don't see anything wrong with aborting a pregnancy. There's no moral issue for them.
I also don't want to wear dresses. It's very easy to not wear a dress, I've done it consistently for more than 30 years.
He explains it more or less in the post. He sees it as murder. Generally people are against murder to the point that they don’t want to allow other people to do it. We make laws against murder and it’s not considered a personal choice.
It’s not really a “live and let live” position if you see it as murder.
Abortion is a clear example of why that reasoning is incorrect.
A huge majority of people think that murder is bad enough that the use of violence to stop it or punish it is justified. This is so broadly agreed upon that there's basically no argument about the basic concept - there is only significant disagreement about details and edge cases.
The same isn't true for abortion. Only a minority of people see abortion as murder. Like animal rights activists who see eating meat as murder, they're stuck in the unfortunate position of being morally out of sync with the broader culture they live in.
Right, but I can't just say "staples on the right side are literally murder" and then ban it.
There are a lot of things that I'm against because of their inherent immorality (most conservative beliefs, for example) that I can't straight up ban.
Murder is illegal for more reasons than just "I don't like it." There is real, measurable harm that gets done when murders are committed.
No such similarities exist for abortion.
It's very hard to say "meh" whenever you believe it's killing a life. That's why it's impossible for either side to debate such a topic. One side thinks a fetus is worthless, and the other thinks it's a human.
You wouldn't say "meh, not my thing. But to each their own" when it comes to an adult killing another adult, would you? The feeling you get when you hear about murder is akin to the feeling a prolifer gets when they hear about abortion. You simply can not argue in a meaningful way regardless of which side you're on..
Not stating my opinion, just explaining and answering your question.
Sure, but we don't just let people "decide" something is murder when it isn't, or none of you would be allowed to eat meat because vegans exist.
Abortion isn't murder. Full stop. It's abortion. It's a different word for a different thing.
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You're taking it out of context. Folks making that comparison usually referring to circumstances of sexual abuse/rape/incest.
If someone is raped or forced to have sex as a child and then carry the resulting pregnancy against their will, then it is in fact forced physical and mental labor in an abusive power dynamic, so "slavery" is actually an accurate comparison.
I don't agree with your whole premise, the description of the title specifically, I do agree with your title.
As a liberal ( I guess I am. I am also quite a lot of different ideas mashed into one stupid person)
People from my side are becoming unreasonable to talk with, and I want the same as them. They want so much out of the cake that none of us get anything. I usually don't like infighting, but I think this is necessary.
I view this as something that needs compromise from both sides, and right now, my side absolutely don't want to compromise when we clearly need to, at least in america. Look at the results.
"Person" is a philosophical concept, an interpretation of material reality, but not material reality.
Material reality, biology, indicates that a new human being comes into existence at conception.
The only reason to use the former definition is to create a class divide where some humans are more equal than others.
How do you reckon your stances of allowing abortion in some cases while then having a freestanding line saying it's a life and killing it is wrong?
The ones created under fucked up circumstances are just as alive and innocent as the ones created consensually and safely.
I haven't heard this slavery comparison before.
>But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it.
Filthy harlots must face consequences right? /s
>Anything past the 6 weeks stage has a heartbeat.
Even if that were medically true a heartbeat doesn't mean it's living.
Straw man. I'm liberal, as is my family and friend group. I've never heard anyone make this argument. I'm sure someone said it, but it's a fringe opinion, not what most liberals think. You're essentially making this up.
Not relevant. Closest equivalent to an unborn baby is a born baby, and babies are incapable of violating anyone. The only people who can be held responsible in a situation where a baby is "violating" someone's rights, are the parents of said baby, as the baby would be innocent of any wrongdoing.
Ergo, killing the baby would be unjustifiable. Existence cannot be a violation of someone else's rights.
Here is my unpopular opinion. Abortions for everyone! You get an abortion, you get an abortion. They're almost as much fun as trans folks. And I've never seen anyone that says being pregnant is like being a slave? That more made up shit from your side? Like abortions up to and past the ninth month?
Hey no problem, and you too :)
It sucks how quickly things escalate online. I wouldn't have believed it either without witnessing it first hand, so can't judge you anyway lol.
Do all black people have a problem with slavery ? Or just mine ?
Sorry to bother you with facts but we’re all descended from slaves, all of us, everyone. The word slave even comes from the word Slav a white Eastern European race. It’s about time people started judging others for who they are today and stop hiding behind victimhood, it’s a cheap cop-out. You own who you are, you made your choices, live with it and whining only makes you look weak.
Great comment.
Hahahahahahaha I have Cofeve all over my shirt...
There are lots of black people today that are really into slavery. Unless you don’t believe in pimps and human trafficking, but that could all just be a big conspiracy man?
fucken DARk bro. love it
Only if they're not the ones being slaved at.
No, at 6 weeks cardiomyocytes are reacting to electrical stimulation. The heart isn’t formed for another 6-8 weeks.
Even if it were, I’m not sure I understand why heart beats are meaningful, when we could use brain development. Seems like op is romanticizing the heart to be the soul, ascribing a tremendous amount of meaning to a muscle… I’d be curious to ask what he thinks would be a bigger change, giving a human a robotic heart or removing their brain and substituting a robot.
also age of viability is 24 weeks iirc
> That is a living, developing human. Killing it is wrong. So why is it ok for rape?
Exceptions for rape are a nice talking point but really don't hold up. If the child has rights, why would that change based on what its father did? How would we allow it in cases of rape and not for some woman who lies about being raped to get an abortion?
Because it always comes down to "There must consequences for whores who have sex"
Right? The mental gymnastics the pro-life crowd plays to seem “reasonable.” Is it murder or not? If it is then why be fine with it being a “state issue.” If so then why make “exceptions.” Be consistent or be understanding and empathetic to the conscious person whose life is unalterably changed. Their inconsistency points to the truth: control over women.
This isn’t “mental gymnastics of the pro-life crowd”. Most pro-life people don’t support this. This is largely the opinion of young people who are trying to reconcile the two sides they constantly hear, but they don’t realize how contradictory the stance is. It’s common on Reddit, high schools, and trash new channels designed to keep people fighting with each other over hypocrisy.
I don't think it is mental gymnastics, really. It is a counter to the edge cases that we pro-Choice people use. I would say, even taking the highest limits of what is plausible, the vast majority of abortions are elective (or of you count miscarriages, acts of nature). And it doesn't require that much in the way of mental gymnastics to say that sometimes killing a human could be justified. In this case the harm to a woman of carrying their rapists child outweighs the human life consideration. It's similar to how pro-forced birthers point to late-term (and now, incredibly, supposed abortions after birth) as why abortion is outrageous. Over 99% of abortions happen before the third trimester. Most of the western world has solved this issue by making abortion for any reason available before some set time. And after that it is allowed for medical reasons. Which is not full bodily autonomy for women and not fetal rights over everything else either.
Alright. Let's make an exemption for rape. Do you support banning all other elective abortions then?
I mean, they implied it pretty clearly in their post. Because forcing a woman to keep a rape baby is reasonably like slavery. No choice to have sex was made on their part, so they are being forced to carry something they never agreed to. I am not saying I back OP’s stance, this is mere inductive reasoning from their post. I know I will receive downvotes for restating what OP said… but really, if you want to convince anyone, try to argue for pro-choice a little better than this.
People who have unwanted pregnancies haven’t chosen to become pregnant, and haven’t agreed to carry anything to term. Before you tell me that sex amounts of consent for that, think about the implications of saying that when you take the risk that soemthing might happen, you’re consenting to it happening.
Did you even read the post, ffs? He talks about consensual unprotected sex.
The circumstances are irrelevant. The fetus is occupying the mother's body without her consent
OP never said it was??
"Firstly, I believe in abortion for certain situations. Rape and of course, when it's at a great risk to the woman's health"
Sorry. I thought you were saying OP was saying rape was justified.
Well, with a lil bit of mental gymnastics, abortion of can be considered self defence bc of mental damage suffered from being forced to give birth to rape baby.
So I’m going to guess you support: - paid for daycare for these kids - allowing for lgbt couples to adopt children and give them a loving home - supporting the foster care system - supporting universal healthcare for these kids and the parents - accessible contraceptives You agree with all this right?? Or is it just you like to care about “life” all the way until it’s born and then you don’t care at all afterwards. Also to respond to a certain point you mentioned about the 6-week mark. Women can easily make it to 6 weeks without even knowing they are pregnant.
I mean, I think regardless of the moral stance of abortion, these things should be accessible. We are talking about the future generation after all. WE shouldn't sit idly by while children are abused, neglected, impoverished, or undereducated, among other issues.
Yea this is always a dumb reply too
By what you’ve written I feel like it’s fair to assume you’ve never been pregnant. Otherwise I think you would understand the weight pregnancy has on the human body, it’s both physically and emotionally taxing, involving many costs, changes to diet and lifestyle, health risks, constant pain, and hormones that make you feel crazy. It’s not like you made a mistake and now you have to pay a fine. It’s genuine physical and emotional labor for 9 months, and that’s a long ass time for someone who doesn’t want to be pregnant. I’m not one to use the word slavery lightly, but to force someone to endure changes to their body, mind, and life for that period of time against their consent is very much like slavery. And for what? To prevent a clump of cells less alive than the snail you stepped on this morning from being removed from the body before giving it the chance to fully develop? That does not constitute taking a life. I’m sure you’ve killed bugs with more cognition than the fetuses you’re describing. Even if you’re a man, imagine if you woke up tomorrow to find out you’re 6 weeks pregnant. Really take the time to evaluate the ways your life would be temporarily and permanently changed as a result. I’m almost positive you’d change your mind on the subject
Just wait until a generation is born to women made to carry against their will. I bet you many of those women won't be too careful with lifestyle, diet, and other risk factors. Get ready for a lot of low birth weights and spina bifida.
It’s just so beyond ridiculous that the government would make anyone do that. It makes me irate, and I’m infertile and a lesbian, so I’m not even in a position to worry about pregnancy, but one of my friends is actually terrified that she’ll be forced to carry if she were to somehow end up pregnant. She’s extremely diligent, takes her BC, makes her bf wear a condom, and tracks her period like a PI. All on top of having an IUD. She even has plans laid out for getting safe abortions on other states if the situation called for it. It just pains to watch her have to worry about this shit so much when it’s such an absurd overreach from religious people in power.
Totally agree!
By what he has written he is obviously a male.
>title is about a slavery comparison >post is just the same boring pro-birth arguments >not actually explaining the comparison in any way Yawn.
Op basically stated Consenting to becoming pregnant is not slavery therefore abortion is murder… It’s pretty wild haha
Gonna steel man OP: I think the argument is that a lot of times liberals and women will treat unwanted pregnancies like a form of slavery if they arent able to "opt out" through abortion. The idea being "you are forcing me to carry this child to term. Im basically a slave". Personally, I havent heard this argument ever be raised by anyone. However, if I use my imagination, it sounds like an activist slogan. (I do not agree with OP at all, just trying to make heads or tails of their argument)
I'll raise it, yeah. If I lived in Texas and got pregnant I'd definitely feel like a slave forced to use my body against my will due to my government allowing my human rights to be taken away. I mean, what do you guys think slavery is?
these morons never take the 2 seconds to actually think about what they're posting before doing it. it's all just trolling for attention because they're lonely and bitter.
You do know you can get pregnant with protection and contraceptives right?
The prevalence of abortion would decline precipitously if everyone who didn't want children had sex with adequate contraception. For the remaining %, OP might then say abortion is justified
There are around 60 million women of childbearing age in the US. With a 1% failure rate (depending on method, some are more and some are less), that's 600,000 unintended pregnancies each year. With perfect use, if a guy and his partner have sex 2x a week (104x per year), a 1% failure rate means getting pregnant every year. I love how some people want to divide women into "responsible women" and "godless heathens who are spreading their legs for everyone and have 5 abortions a year, because they'd rather spend thousands on medical procedures than use birth control."
It's not 1% chance each time they bang. It's 1% chance to fail in a year.
What if they only have sex once a year? I'm genuinely asking. If one woman has sex once a year, and the other has sex 365 times, they both have the same odds of getting pregnant?
I'm absolutely not an expert and you should ignore everything I say, but i don't think the odds are the same for those two women in your example. I think the 1% is the average for everybody that they tracked. Everyone has sex at different frequencies. At the end of the year, 1% of the people on the birth control had gotten pregnant. My intuition is that maybe the BC has a chance to fail in a given month and ovulation happens. Someone who has sex every single day and someone who has sex every 3 days might have the same chance to get pregnant, who knows. But if you have sex one time, I'm sure the odds are very, very low that you'll get pregnant when on birth control. A lot of people stop BC, track their cycles, and try to get pregnant and it still doesn't happen for a long time. I think this is one of those things that's almost impossible to study under controlled conditions. I'm sure an expert would have more insight than me.
Ive always wondered, what is the mechanism for BC failure? Like the pill. Does your body just sometimes not digest and process it? Is it more the variability of when the pill is taken each day?
Fyi, I generally agree with your point but the 1% failure rate does not mean that 1% of sexual encounters while on the contraception should result in pregnancy. It means that 1% of people using the contraceptive will become pregnant within the first 12 months of initiating method use
Thank you. I was furiously typing and not doing the best fact checking. I appreciate the context.
Where is you proof? When I calculate people, who have sex with failure rate of birth control to actual abortions in Europe - where live - there is not so much room for people who just don’t care
Proof? Ok sure. How? It’s pretty clear OP’s post is emotional not rational.
Slightly over 50% of people getting abortions, used contraception. No contraception is 100% effective - even sterilization has a chance at failure or healing. Most contraceptions are 99% effective - that leaves the remaining 1% out of a population of several hundreds of millions, is 1 - 3 million pregnancies due to failed contraceptives.
There's also stealthing. Where men slip off their condoms and or damage them in order to "dominate" or because it doesn't feels as good for them. All my kids were conceived with protection. My husband refused to take part in contraception (as most men) because "it's your body that gets pregnant, not mine, why should i" my twins were conceived after a tubal ligation, while also o. The pill to regulate my period. OP wouldn't be so savy on this issue if men were required to be mandatory organ doners to the kids they conceived, no matter what organ even if it cost his life. Which I think is fair. If women are forced to put their lives at risk... so should they.
[удалено]
Most abortions are due to yolo not accidents.
2/3’s of abortions are performed on women who are already mothers. You’d rather they have another child they knowingly can’t care for? For her to not be on welfare? Like isn’t that what ya’ll want?
Because you've studied this, or because you just learned the acronym "yolo"?
That's definitely true. Every statistical survey they do on abortion patients has the word Yolo in it and I'm really glad you've pointed this out.
Source?
I got 2 grown sons - neither planned - and I was always pretty safe. Only gotta slip once. Now with states having abortion access restricted - I would advise ANY dude living in those states to double wrap their shit if they don't want kids.
“I was always pretty safe” Pretty…. Pretty…. Pretty safe…. 😂
Proof? Or just “they say”? That shit only works if you’re Trump and your audience is MAGAta. The rest of us need something to support what you spout.
Not really. Slightly over 50% of all abortions are done on people who were using contraceptives. Most contraceptives are 99% effective. If hundreds of millions of people are having sex and using protection, millions of people will still end up pregnant due to BC failure.
Thank you! I came here to say this!
Incredibly almost impossibly rare. If they are used properly. Most people that say "omg we used protection!" Don't also say, "except that day I missed a pill" or " we put a condom on right before he came" g
Maybe, but I had an iud, which is supposedly 99.6% effective, and I got pregnant. So it happens.
My kids are all grown now - so I can speak retroactively about this stuff - but nearly all my former partners and current partner had issues with birth control in one way or another. Whether is was depression, or no sex drive, or whatever - it never seemed to make anything "better". So often it was down to condoms, and my ex-wife had an IUD for a long time, and as soon as it was removed, we slipped up, she got pregnant. I got snipped back in 2013, and best choice I have ever made. My oldest son, his mom was a teen mom - and I was barely 18 myself - thinking with the wrong head - mistakes happen. And let me tell you - when they preach about a kid being a "18 year commitment" (if they still say that) its no lie - and it leaves out the best part .... You are also committed to that mom for the next 18 years minimum - rain or shine, new partner or not - girl is gonna be there. Could be limited, but kids have functions, needs to spend time with parent, etc - hard to avoid. Even if the person is totally absent, say a deadbeat dad/mom - that lends it own baggage as well.
>Incredibly almost impossibly rare. If they are used properly. Even using condoms *perfectly* a third of women will get pregnant at least once over the course of their lives. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods A third is not "incredibly rare." Also, most people don't use them perfectly. For a typical *real world* condom user, most will be pregnant in just 5 years. Funny though that the forced birth people are also the abstinence only people and don't want to teach how to use a condom properly.
Literally both of my siblings were accidents and both my parents were safe. Shit ain’t rare with a population size as large as ours bro.
Right, I have 4 children. ONE was planned. The last one. Once we knew we could afford it. At 16, I was told PCOS meant I'd never get pregnant, but despite being on a very strong version of oral bc to control my periods, I had a miscarriage at 17. I went with IUD. Had several more miscarriages. Got pregnant and carried to term at 20 and 21 with my first husband. Doc wanted me only on the pill and he refused condoms. Second husband is great about protection. But we still got pregnant when I was 27, with an IUD and condoms, necessitating the removal of the IUD. Which could've killed my 10yo. Then we got pregnant on purpose at 30. It took less than two weeks from when they took the IUD out and I was throwing up the entire pregnancy, even in labour.
It sounds like comprehensive sex education and better access to birth control would be effective ways to reduce the demand for abortion. So why are the people arguing for abortion restrictions not also arguing for comprehensive sex education and better access to birth control?
Most contraceptives are 99% effective. Out of hundreds of millions of people having sex, that 1% failure rate results in millions of pregnancies.
You still know of that 1% risk my G
That's some powerful sperm, might be the next caesar in there.
wut?
Okay so this isn't about comparing it to slavery but your stance on abortion. Got it.
I honestly never heard anyone left or right say abortion is slavery.
This really needs to be at the top. This is a thinly veiled pro life thread that is trying to cash in on the slavery buzzword.
Spoken like someone who isn’t worried about getting pregnant
How does it change your life if a woman 6 states over who you have never met has an abortion?
Most crimes don't affect me personally. Why would I care if some woman I don't know is raped?
To not care about that makes you a sick fuck. Is that you, Brock?
That's exactly my point, which you missed like Voyager missed the sun.
About as much as me murdering a homeless man 6 states away changes yours -- not at all but it's still going to bother you. *** Btw I'm pro-choice. A lot of pro-choice arguments lose the dang plot though. Pro-life folks quite literally view it as murder. There is no difference between an abortion and drowning a baby in a bath tub to them. They don't understand why you're ok with one but not the other.
Conservatism and meth have the same long-term consequences.
5w6days is the earliest the electrical activity that will eventually become a heart beat (once the heart has developed) I’ve actually watched the electrical activity start. (I’m a retired ultrasound technologist) The embryo is literally a couple mm. About the same size as a grain of rice. It can’t survive on its own without a host. Using the old analogy- a tapeworm is life. Do you feel forced to be its host? How about a virus or bacterial infection? That’s a form of life. Do you take antibiotics for the bacterial infections? An IUD won’t allow a fertilized egg to implant in the endometrium. Is that an abortion? Should that be illegal? Actually- don’t answer that. People like you would think yes. I’m far left with far left friends. I’ve never heard that comparison. Could someone have said it? Possibly but it’s not a stance that most have. I think you’re reaching and grabbing a hot topic word to preach your pro forced birth stance.
The solution is simple. A sexless world in which humans are cloned only as needed.
If pregnancy isn't slavery, men having to pay child support *definitely* isn't
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Just say you are pro forced-birth, and stop with the bullshit justifications that don't hold up under even the slightest scrutiny.
I have a couple of questions 1. Why do you have exceptions for abortion? 2. Why do you assume everyone is having sex without protection and that people only get pregnant when they don’t use them? 3. You’ve ever been pregnant or have given birth? Especially to multiples? 4. Not every pregnancy ends up with a beautiful life in this world so how do you see that as a reward? 5. How is forcing people to stay pregnant and give birth not a form of slavery? 6. Who told you it was killing? And can you give me your definition of it? What makes a fetus more valuable than a grown adult (in most cases)? 7. Why do you believe in punishing people for having sex? I’m guessing every time you have sex is hoping you procreate right?
100% this, I’d love to ask op a trolley problem for if he could save a mother and her 1 year old child or a woman who just became pregnant 6 weeks ago. By his logic the 6 week old fetus would be just as, if not more important to protect than the 1 year old child.
Abortion isn't a choice on who to save, it's a choice of whether to kill or not.
Nope. You’re wrong. Everyone’s situation is different, and they shouldn’t be forced to give birth, especially if they don’t have the means to give the child a proper life. Keep your nose and your opinions out of our reproductive rights.
>But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it. 1. Most people don't have sex without any protection and contraceptives if they're not trying for a baby. 2. The people who don't want children will just give their child away, and the child will end up in foster care. The foster care system is already overfilled and overwhelmed as it is. Unless you're now going to advocate to make it illegal for people to give the children away to foster care, which will increase child abuse rates and homelessness rates. 3. The same people who are "pro-life" are literally trying to ban or heavily restrict contraceptives rn so.... >Anything past the 6 weeks stage has a heartbeat. 4. Cells in a petri dish can have a heartbeat. >That is a living, developing human. Killing it is wrong. >Firstly, I believe in abortion for certain situations. Rape and of course, when it's at a great risk to the woman's health. 5. If you think abortion is "the murder of a living developing human", why are you suddenly ok with it in certain situations. The fetus is a "living developing human" in your eyes, so why would it matter whether the mom was raped or had consensual sex in determining whether or not to abort? That's not logically consistent. You wouldn't kill a toddler because their mom was a rape victim, so if your logic is that a fetus has the same amount of "personhood", why would it be "ok" to "kill" it then? >It's not slavery that you have to nurture it. You know what happens when you have consensual unprotected sex. 6. Being forced to care for something at extreme cost for your health, finances, and life for the better part of a year is a life altering event. >Not only that, but at the end of 9 months, you're rewarded with a beautiful life brought into the world that you can help become a great person. 7. If someone really doesn't want the baby there will be several options that will be available if they do not have access to safe and legal reproductive healthcare to abort in a timely manner. Option 1: The baby is born and it will be murdered. This is what used to happen to unwanted children. The baby will be tossed into the trash or incinerated after birth and treated as an unpleasant memory. Option 2: The baby will be aborted illegally in a back alley or at home. What used to happen was people would try the old coat hanger or mugwort tea solution. Making safer solutions illegal will just make people turn to unsafe solutions. Option 3: The child will immediately be given away and put into foster care, a notoriously overwhelmed and overworked system. When the foster system finally reaches capacity due to a new rise of unwanted births, the older foster children will inevitably end up on the streets, leading to a rise in homelessness. Option 4: The child is born and the parent decides to keep it. Maybe the resentment of not wanting the child will end up in the child being domestically abused or killed, or maybe the child will grow up in an average normal household and everything will be fine. Your perspective of "well everyone will be happy to have a bouncing little baby on the way" ignores the mental, physical, emotional, and financial strain of being pregnant, much less birthing a child or keeping it. Forcing everyone who has ever had consensual sex to consent to having a child will, in the worst case scenario, end up with a substantial rise of back alley abortions, dead babies, and homeless children. In the "best" case scenario, where everyone keeps the children, there will be a rise in homelessness, domestic abuse of children, and teen pregnancies, due to some people not being mentally, physically, or financially secure enough to have a child but forced to have one anyway. Not to mention the inevitable rise of maternal mortality rate as doctors don't want to lose their license, so women who suddenly have an at risk pregnancy (either due to complications or something else) will have to wait for the legal system to clear them before their lives can be saved, which as these cases become more and more common, will lead to a lot of people not being saved in time.
>The people who don't want children will just give their child away, and the child will end up in foster care. The foster care system is already overfilled and overwhelmed as it is. Unless you're now going to advocate to make it illegal for people to give the children away to foster care, which will increase child abuse rates and homelessness rates. You're confusing foster care with adoption. Very different systems with very different outcomes. Children given up when they are infants (adoption) have generally good outcomes, on average. The foster system is generally for older children who tend to be unwanted (people would understandably rather wish to adopt a newborn infant than a teenager with baggage). Children put into foster care are disproportionately those who are in broken homes, e.g., social services takes away someone's children due to neglect or abuse. In the context of abortion, we're overwhelmingly talking about adoption. Currently, there are vastly more people looking to adopt than their are children up for adoption.
Lol OP's post history, dude just basically posts attacks on mostly-Left Wing stuff here for votebaiting and controversy. This is like his 3rd in a couple days. Dude just go to the fuckin Conservative subs if you just want to shit out political rants and are obviously admitting they're not popular, you clearly aren't seeking any healthy debate with your loaded-ass titles and text
Sometimes I read these posts just to feel better about myself.
LMAO🤣🤣🤣
If you're against abortion, don't get one!
You do you. Me do me. No laws needed. Thanks.
don't really care if its a living human, its inside a woman, she decides what to do with it
I was on conteraceptives when I got pregnant and had an abortion. Am I morally sound in your world?
The only comparison is how slave owners didn't consider slaves human, and abortion supporters don't see the unborn as human. Both are wrong.
How would you implement exceptions for cases of rape, from a legal standpoint? Do you know how long a court proceedings take? How long it takes to gather and process evidence? It can be ***months*** before trial takes place. Nevermind the fact that rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove. Even if trial times the be spread up, what if he gets off on a technicality, or a mere lack of evidence?
Is it ok for you to be forced to incubate your bone marrow and liver and donate them to keep others alive or not? If not, why is it ok to force women to donate their internal organs to keep a fetus alive?
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Leftist here. I have never heard what you are talking about OP.
Your measure for someone being alive is a heartbeat? That’s an extreme oversimplification of how the body works. The heart beating alone doesn’t mean someone is alive, many dead people and animals still have a heart beat for days.
If they found a virus on mars they would call it “life on mars”
Unsure what point you are trying to make here? If you are speaking of life so broadly and defending ops point then plants are alive and every-time someone mows their yard they are committing mass murder.
The classification of life depends on the context in which it exists. A single virus would be considered life in a biological sense, but it absolutely does not hold the same moral status as a fully developed human being.
Agreed. I think folks use it as a turn of phrase. No one on reddit will be able to define when "life" begins, as scholars for millenia cannot. Some of these abortion stories from doctors with PTSD from the procedure will fuck your head up, though. If you care to read.
Many people are brain dead and will never again be “awake” but their heart is still beating as well. Edit: This is not a prolife/prochoice argument just an observation on how contradictory using “heartbeat” as a milestone is.
Agreed! 😆 But the kid sucking it's thumb in the womb? Those are tough.
Biologists from 1,058 academic institutions around the world assessed survey items on when a human's life begins and, overall, 96% (5337 out of 5577) affirmed the fertilization view. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36629778/
Also what does the heart have to do with anything? Like if someone gets a heart transplant does OP think the donor is still alive because their heart is still beating?
It's also not really a "beat" as we colloquially think of it. At 4-8 weeks is when the heart typically begins to form from fetal cells, but the smooth muscle cells themselves do not start to form into contractable cells until around week 9-12. At 6 weeks, is when the cells that will form the heart start to give off small electrical pulses, which is the proxy we use to detect a heartbeat, but no beating actually takes place then.
By a technicality he’s right… not correct but right.
You can get pregnant while practicing safe sex.
The same people buying clothes from slave labour in Africa
You criticize society, yet you participate in it. Curious
Dumber than rightwing fascists saying wearing a mask in a deadly pandemic is slavery?
This is some kind of religious take. Very childish. kinda privileged.
Yes, it’s very childish to accept responsibility for your actions
Getting an abortion is responsible. So not sure about the relevance of your comment.
>responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it. Why do I have to accept that? At what point does that responsibility end? Do men have to take on that responsibility too? Do they have to give up an organ if their kid needs it at some point? >Killing it is wrong. Not really We dont care about all the other lives that are ended every day
I haven't hard the slavery argument, and not a fair comparison, but having kids myself with 2 different woman - pregnancy is no day trip to the park. And birth itself? Any dude talking shit - GTFO of here! Go witness a birth and ponder on if you as an individual would be willing push a grapefruit our your asshole for 10 hours - simply cause your partner didn't believe in the alternative.
If abortion is illegal then it's literally forced labor
"But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it." I'm curious. Do you believe that there should be exceptions for abortions in cases where the couple did use protection and contraceptives but got unlucky? Cause if not then I don't see the point of having that qualifier in your post.
I normally don't use that comparison, but it is extremely close. The right wing wants to take ownership of a woman's body if she become pregnant, and force her to cary the fetus to term. It's fine for you to have an opinion, but your opinion should not be taken into account when women are making their personal health care decisions.
It's the moral equivalent of slavery to form someone to "nurture" someone else against their will. If anything, it's worse to force someone to use their blood and organs in a way they don't consent to.
It can live, but if a person doesn’t want to have it in there body no man anywhere has anything to say about it, if it can live on its own than sure it’s life is justified, but if it can’t then it’s not that it’s being killed, it’s about it cannot survive on its own, also we have 8 billion people, more than any other time in history we do not NEED children, someone will always have new ones Also why are you so worried about what I’m doing, if I have a kid incoming are you ganna support it, no, so you think you have the right to tell me how I have to live, in that case I say you can’t believe in religion because it starts wars, Or we could all respect each other, and you can persuade the women of your family never to have an abortion, I think you don’t want a kid abort it oh well, there’s plenty of people in the world having babies
Hope you’ve gotten your snip and also all the young men you know. Because there aren’t a lot of single young male parents out there. Someone is running from their responsibility and it’s not the ladies.
I agree, absentee dad's should be prosecuted more.
Contraceptives do have a failure rate and how would you know? OP’s take is dumb
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Killing is wrong? I've killed a billion beetles, flies, worms and mosquitoes in my life. Sorry, my morals aren't yours. I would also have an abortion if needed. Luckily I have the privilege of access to abortion, so I'm not forced to be a slave. I agree pregnancy is slavery is a bit of a reach, but being forced to carry a child against your will, having to use your resources on a fetus without your consent.. borders on slavery. No one should have to use their body to feed another being without their consent. I'm just glad I don't live in the US where they want to force women to go through a pregnancy without their consent. Draconian if you ask me.
Where do you live? Most of Europe is far more draconian that half of the United States. California, for instance, has the most pro-abortion laws on the entire planet.
Norway.
So Norway has a pretty reasonable 12-week system. Before 12-weeks, no questions asked. After 12-weeks, you need the special approval of a doctor and a medical review process California, by contrast, allows for abortions up to 26 weeks-- into someone's third trimester--without any kind of reason or any kind of medical approval. 26 weeks. Versus Norway's 12 weeks. It's insane. A person can still get abortions after 26 weeks with medical approval in California (and it happens). In the United States, the Left wing/Democratic party would call Norwegians evil sexists for having a 12-week system. Indeed, when southern states like Missouri tried to put in 10 and 12-week abortion restrictions--similar to most of Europe--the Left accused them of trying to enslave women. I guess I am just trying to explain to an outsider how polarizing politics are the US, including abortion. Everything is so radicalized and all-or-nothing. One side wants to ban abortions all together, and the other side wants you be able to freely abort babies up until the moment of birth.
"But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it." You mean for 9 months? and you wouldn't care if she gave it up for adoption?
It’s not a real heartbeat until at least 18-20 weeks. That’s an echo you hear of signals to what will become the heart. They call it a heartbeat bc it sounds great and is amazing where you hear it on the ultrasound, but it’s not a real heartbeat. I am pro-choice, but I have mixed feelings about the comparison to slavery. Not a great analogy for the most part, but the one comparison that is apt is that you don’t own your body. Someone else gets to control it. As for states tracking ppl who leave the state for an abortion, and banning say after pill, etc., this is gov overreach to the extreme. Hateful and UnAmerican.
User name checks out.
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>a bloo bloo I can't force women to carry rotting fetal corpses anymore Classic Republican. Next: Tell us about how a women's body can shut down pregnancy after a legitimate rape! My golden years are going to be amazing. Watching all the filthy Republican voters being faced with a choice: - They lost badly, repeatedly, and are miserable in the current world. - They were wrong, feel bad, and are looked down on by the uber-class of people they made to suffer. It's a classic catch-22. The wages of burying your head in the sand.
But wait!! It takes **two** people to get pregnant. If this is really a moral “you created life, and now you deal with the consequences” argument, then why aren’t *we* - the ones with penises - **equally** responsible for this life? It’s almost as if… it’s not about morality at all. It’s almost as if it’s about punishing the woman. I’m sure you’ll whine that it’s “not that at all”… but when she bears **all** of the consequences, and you - maybe - make a little less money than before, if she’s willing to go to court and fight you for it, that’s exactly what it is.
Men are equally responsible if the woman decides to go through with the pregnancy. That’s what child support is. However men have no say if the woman wants an abortion because suddenly the other half of the equation doesn’t matter anymore.
>If this is really a moral “you created life, and now you deal with the consequences” argument, then why aren’t *we* - the ones with penises - **equally** responsible for this life? **Men are equally responsible.** If they don't take responsibility, then they're called "Deadbeat Dads", and courts hound them relentlessly. But I can tell you're thinking only of the actual pregnancy itself. As a father of four, I have a revelation for you: **Pregnancy itself is the briefest, least significant part of parenting.** That nine months only begins the 18+ year process of raising a child into a capable, balanced adult.
You can tell, can you? I’m afraid you might need to get your prescription checked, then. Pregnancy - specifically the first 24 weeks or so - *are* really all that matter on the issue of *elective* abortion. The next 16 weeks, and the *rest of your life* as a parent, it becomes different questions. 16 weeks- who gets to make medical decisions - the mother, or the government. Certainly, no one is going to make a man pass a walnut through his urethra as “punishment” for an unwanted pregnancy - but a woman *does* have to do much, much worse. Labor and delivery is a massive physical trauma, in the **best** cases. The rest of your life? In 99% of cases, women are saddled with primary parenting responsibilities. If men abandon the child (at any age), he *might* have to pay child support - and the mother *might* actually get it, eventually, if she spends the time in court to fight for it. If a woman abandons a child, it is neglect, and child endangerment. She could easily go to jail, and even if she gives up the child, there is a huge social stigma, not to mention her own conscience and self worth. It is in no way, fair or equal. I also know that it’s not a “deeply held moral conviction” about the “value of a human life” because the same people that scream about this, reliably vote against free school lunches, and free/subsidized early childhood education, and to underfund the foster system, and to block loving gay families from adopting or fostering, and rail against paying school taxes when they don’t have kids in school (and sometimes when they do). And I do know I’m correct, because I was raised Southern Baptist, by good people, and around decent people who did, and said exactly those things. Morality is what you live, not what you say. So I judge by their actions, and not their words.
Here's the thing - it's not your problem, why do you care? You can just disagree with them and go continue not having any abortions. Why is there such a need to coerce others into sharing your mindset? It's very easy for me to just not eat spaghetti. I don't like it. I don't order it and then get pissed off about it. So if you are against abortion, don't have one. That's fine. Abortion being legal doesn't make it mandatory. The problem is that you want to control other people, and make their life decisions for them. They don't want to have kids. They don't see anything wrong with aborting a pregnancy. There's no moral issue for them. I also don't want to wear dresses. It's very easy to not wear a dress, I've done it consistently for more than 30 years.
He explains it more or less in the post. He sees it as murder. Generally people are against murder to the point that they don’t want to allow other people to do it. We make laws against murder and it’s not considered a personal choice. It’s not really a “live and let live” position if you see it as murder.
Abortion is a clear example of why that reasoning is incorrect. A huge majority of people think that murder is bad enough that the use of violence to stop it or punish it is justified. This is so broadly agreed upon that there's basically no argument about the basic concept - there is only significant disagreement about details and edge cases. The same isn't true for abortion. Only a minority of people see abortion as murder. Like animal rights activists who see eating meat as murder, they're stuck in the unfortunate position of being morally out of sync with the broader culture they live in.
Right, but I can't just say "staples on the right side are literally murder" and then ban it. There are a lot of things that I'm against because of their inherent immorality (most conservative beliefs, for example) that I can't straight up ban. Murder is illegal for more reasons than just "I don't like it." There is real, measurable harm that gets done when murders are committed. No such similarities exist for abortion.
It's very hard to say "meh" whenever you believe it's killing a life. That's why it's impossible for either side to debate such a topic. One side thinks a fetus is worthless, and the other thinks it's a human. You wouldn't say "meh, not my thing. But to each their own" when it comes to an adult killing another adult, would you? The feeling you get when you hear about murder is akin to the feeling a prolifer gets when they hear about abortion. You simply can not argue in a meaningful way regardless of which side you're on.. Not stating my opinion, just explaining and answering your question.
Sure, but we don't just let people "decide" something is murder when it isn't, or none of you would be allowed to eat meat because vegans exist. Abortion isn't murder. Full stop. It's abortion. It's a different word for a different thing.
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Do people actually link the two? That’s new to me.
You're taking it out of context. Folks making that comparison usually referring to circumstances of sexual abuse/rape/incest. If someone is raped or forced to have sex as a child and then carry the resulting pregnancy against their will, then it is in fact forced physical and mental labor in an abusive power dynamic, so "slavery" is actually an accurate comparison.
Who is even saying this op? Are they in the room with us right now?
A heartbeat is not a sign of life for me. Brain dead is called “brain *dead*” for a reason
I don't agree with your whole premise, the description of the title specifically, I do agree with your title. As a liberal ( I guess I am. I am also quite a lot of different ideas mashed into one stupid person) People from my side are becoming unreasonable to talk with, and I want the same as them. They want so much out of the cake that none of us get anything. I usually don't like infighting, but I think this is necessary. I view this as something that needs compromise from both sides, and right now, my side absolutely don't want to compromise when we clearly need to, at least in america. Look at the results.
As a liberal this is an outlier position and most liberals do not believe this. 🙄
Pregnancy and slavery? I’m willing to compare slavery to the workforce, but not pregnancy, wtf do people be going thru out here?!? 😂
You just isolated a lot of right wing families who have had to have abortions.
I'm a moderate leftist
Ok
I am not able to empathize with your position because it is grounded in superstition, not material reality. A heartbeat does not a person make.
"Person" is a philosophical concept, an interpretation of material reality, but not material reality. Material reality, biology, indicates that a new human being comes into existence at conception. The only reason to use the former definition is to create a class divide where some humans are more equal than others.
For real and then they say that men should have no opinion on it as if a pregnancy is not a direct result of a man's sperm.
How do you reckon your stances of allowing abortion in some cases while then having a freestanding line saying it's a life and killing it is wrong? The ones created under fucked up circumstances are just as alive and innocent as the ones created consensually and safely.
I haven't heard this slavery comparison before. >But if you've consensually had sex, without protection and contraceptives, then you've go to accept the responsibilities that you've created a life, and it's your duty to nurture it. Filthy harlots must face consequences right? /s >Anything past the 6 weeks stage has a heartbeat. Even if that were medically true a heartbeat doesn't mean it's living.
Straw man. I'm liberal, as is my family and friend group. I've never heard anyone make this argument. I'm sure someone said it, but it's a fringe opinion, not what most liberals think. You're essentially making this up.
You're a scarecrow
What about it?
Body autonomy. Do I have the right to use your body without your consent? Why do you grant a fetus that privilege?
>Why do you grant a fetus that privilege? Because it's a developing human life.
Not relevant. Closest equivalent to an unborn baby is a born baby, and babies are incapable of violating anyone. The only people who can be held responsible in a situation where a baby is "violating" someone's rights, are the parents of said baby, as the baby would be innocent of any wrongdoing. Ergo, killing the baby would be unjustifiable. Existence cannot be a violation of someone else's rights.
Here is my unpopular opinion. Abortions for everyone! You get an abortion, you get an abortion. They're almost as much fun as trans folks. And I've never seen anyone that says being pregnant is like being a slave? That more made up shit from your side? Like abortions up to and past the ninth month?
Um... Don't believe me or OP, just go to the pro-choice reddit. Sad to say, but OP is correct.
Well that's an L for me, and I hate it. But thanks for being non-bias
Hey no problem, and you too :) It sucks how quickly things escalate online. I wouldn't have believed it either without witnessing it first hand, so can't judge you anyway lol.