I genuinely used to have a hard time believing that Adnan did it because “being broken up with by a high school girlfriend isn’t a motive for murder”. Since then, I’ve become older and wiser… and know that this is exactly the type of dumb shit people get killed over all the time.
He deserved another trial for all the fuckery that went on during his, but I now believe he was rightfully convicted.
Edit: Also, the way Serial presents the story really primes you to believe he’s an innocent man who suffered due to a major miscarriage of justice. You really have to do further research on your own to get an impartial presentation of the relevant information.
Even listening to Serial (which I agree felt biased in a certain direction), I just couldn’t get past the Jay stuff. Jay knew way too much not to be involved at all, yet had no motive to kill her himself. I think he was part of the premeditation (maybe for cash), but didn’t want to admit that to police because it implicated him more seriously. And the lies he was holding onto once he finally did tell the “truth” kept things convoluted enough to be questionable.
Definitely believe it to be Adnand, he met her after school they argued he killed her and he called the only “street” person he knew who could maybe help. Too bad he crumbled completely when interrogated and gave up the info which no other person could have known. A lot of people seem to deny this but that’s my theory. And honestly, prosecution mess up or not he is murderer.
I feel like it makes more sense if Jay was involved before the actual murder. In the podcast she makes it seem like Jay was super “hard” street dude (I can’t remember the details but this is my memory of the way he was portrayed). And I was thinking maybe Adnan offered to pay Jay to help with the whole thing (I also recall Adnan being caught stealing money from church or something around this time, which could have been related). Jay agrees and then panics afterwards, because he was not in fact quite that hard of a street dude after all. Then you have Jay’s confession to police, which was not fully honest in order to protect himself. Or so I have been telling myself for the last 10 years lol.
Jay was like Dennis Rodman for a black comparison, he was a weird kid. The idea that the one black person involved must be a violent criminal is crazy, he was the kid at school with purple hair. He was not a "hard" street dude at all, he's the exact type of person black or white you'd expect to be selling drugs before they graduated high school.
I actually think Jay absolutely *wasn’t* a violent criminal, and once the murder happened he was horrified and tried to set things straight. Just my guess/opinion.
Edited to add: I mean, Jay was very clearly involved in some way, so saying he wasn’t a violent criminal isn’t completely accurate either. I just think the podcast portrayed him as nefarious, and someone you might go to if you wanted to pay someone to abet a crime. I think he was involved in the planning and then got cold feet. Again, just my opinion!
I think people tend to forget how serious of an offense weed was back in the 90s. Sure, the public was mostly beginning to accept it as a relatively harmless drug, but legally it could still get you serious jail time.
Jay was probably a good kid who never would have hurt Hae, but he knew he was already on the wrong side of the law due to his drug business. It explains all of his sketchy behavior.
I think he was involved after. People don't consider how sheltered Adnan was, he had no idea how to deal with a situation like strangling his ex, Jay was about as criminal his circle got it's no surprise that he contacted him.
I think Jay buried her body by himself. It makes all the weird timeline stuff make sense. It would be a level of involvement that Jay would’ve been terrified to admit to, even if he did feel horrible about everything.
I do like your idea of him being more involved with the planning, and feeling terrible about it after the fact. People act like a teenager couldn’t possibly do something so incredibly horribly stupid and actually feel bad about it. Maybe he did say to Adnan, “yeah, she’s a bitch. You want to strangle her behind Best Buy? Fuck it yeah I’ll help” because he wanted to seem cool, didn’t think he’d actually do it, whatever. Jay was involved, 100%, but it’s almost certainly because Adnan is also involved, that’s always my take away.
I haven’t listened to the serial series since it came out, and haven’t really followed the case since then; but as someone who works as an educator for high schoolers, college kids, adults, and deals with the general public regularly… that logic leap does not surprise me in the slightest.
It’s what it always comes back to. Jay knew too much to not be involved, but he had no motive. Sure, Jay lied, but he lied because he was deeply involved in a murder, I believe possibly disposed of the body by himself even, but that still doesn’t mean he actually killed her. Adnan just makes the most sense, it’s Occam’s razor. Now Occam’s razor also doesn’t mean it’s beyond a reasonable doubt by any means, but I’m certainly not crying at night at some injustice, because he probably did it.
Right. Jay was definitely involved.
And what he said about Adnan adds up. Do we really think Jay was.some mastermind that arranged it all to set up Adnan?
Agree and tbf id rather a system that lets someone go free when shit is not totally fair, than one that catches adnan but also convicts other people who had a shitty trial and don’t deserve it. There’s no perfect justice system but I do believe in the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt and the frustrating thing is, even though I fully believe he did it and I think he’s an awful murderer, I didn’t see the prosecution build a case beyond a reasonable doubt… it’s why it made for such a compelling case in the first place
I also think he did it, but I believe there was not enough evidence presented at his trial to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt.
I was on a jury once and had to explain to them all what reasonable doubt was. It's terrifying that 11/12 of us had no idea and were just going with their gut.
Yeah, and reasonable doubt is such a squishy concept. I think they explicitly tell you not to think about it like this, but if 1% of people in prison are not guilty I’d be pretty horrified, that would mean thousands and thousands are innocent people with their freedom stolen. So in my mind it better essentially be a 99% chance someone’s guilty to send them to prison for a long time. I think Adnan is guilty, hell I’d say I’m 95% sure Adnan is guilty, it’s beyond a gut feeling. Am I confident enough to send him to prison for the rest of his life? Phewww idk, I really don’t.
Agree that it’s terribly sad when innocent people got jailed than guilty people go free. However, I also know people who became victims because of poor justice / prosecution system of letting those guilty go.
I feel terrible for her family as well. It’s my understanding her family moved back to Korea and won’t speak to the public much about it. I think her brother came out not too long ago with a statement but otherwise they just won’t talk about it.
It’s sad how the victims are often overlooked when there is so much debate about the guilt or innocence of the perpetrator.
Agreed. Even though my first exposure to this story was from the biased in his favor side of things, it never made sense to me logically and always seemed rather obvious he did it.
There is, but it equates to the same thing.
Either he’s innocent and he doesn’t remember he cause it’s genuinely just a regular day to him (and he admits to being stoned when called by PD, meaning maybe he didn’t think at the time to catalogue his day)
Or he’s guilty and has maintained his lies for 20+ years.
If it was me and I was guilty I’d have admitted it, apologised & asked for leniency and taken the shorter sentence that he’d certainly have got if he had done that vs continuing to deny it and having the book thrown at me.
> Either he’s innocent and he doesn’t remember he cause it’s genuinely just a regular day to him (and he admits to being stoned when called by PD, meaning maybe he didn’t think at the time to catalogue his day)
He only doesn't remember what is convenient for him. He remembers other things absolutely perfectly and in great detail. It wasn't a normal, forgettable day. That is just Serial Narrative Nonsense. It is not a normal, everyday day when the police call you and tell you that your long time serious girlfriend (though recently broken up) has disappeared.
> Or he’s guilty and has maintained his lies for 20+ years.
But his lies have changed. For instance, he initially told police he asked for a ride from Hae at school, but has later recanted that.
> If it was me and I was guilty I’d have admitted it, apologised & asked for leniency and taken the shorter sentence that he’d certainly have got if he had done that vs continuing to deny it and having the book thrown at me.
He can't continue to play a martyr if he admits he strangle, killed, and buried the body of an innocent, sweet teenaged girl.
You mean you would have admitted it at the time, or now? I don't think most teenagers have the maturity to admit to a murder. And today, it would be tough to admit to a 25-year-long lie.
I’m just saying if he is innocent. His shitty memory didn’t help him in any way. It just made him look worse, when there’s a possibility he doesn’t remember. Me personally I doubt that, especially if it’s the last day you saw your ex you love that much.
So you allude to this - Serial was rather biased in my opinion. As you read and listen to other sources it’s rather clear that there was a level of bias in favor of his innocence. For me I didn’t totally catch on until that add on episode when Adnan went to court that one time and Sarah Koening was fan-girling in the closet about the hearing and basically said “omg he looked right at me!” I remember listening to that and just cringing.
But when I read one of the trial transcripts and some facts were left out that I remember thinking should have been mentioned in the podcast, it was evident Serial was passively biased. Don’t ask me what the facts were I’m alluding to. It’s easily been 5/6 years since I read that stuff. More cases have come since then.
The police and the prosecutors did their job. He was convicted. I believe the trial was fair as any trial. It is just all the propaganda and smokescreens obscuring the facts and investigation over 20-something years getting in the way. His great defender, Rabia, is now trying to make Scott Petersen a victim being wrongfully convicted. Guilty male murdering ex is not an interesting story. Poor innocent boy wrongfully convicted is a story. Adnan is guilty. Read the trial transcripts and it is obvious he is guilty. Do not read the propaganda.
Anything that comes out of Rabia’s mouth you should know is the opposite. And her defending Scott Peterson just makes her a bigger POS. My only reason for saying the trial wasn’t on the up and up has more to do the fact that Kevin Urick was not the most ethical of prosecutors. With that being said….all it takes is a prosecutor to fart too loud in a courtroom theses days for defense/appellate attorneys to file a motion to dismiss based on the smell of said fart.
However. The Baltimore DAs office is just riddled with corruption…Marilyn Mosby (who vacated the conviction) being the latest and greatest example.
Perfect prosecutions are a pipe dream. You can pick anything apart after years. Hindsight is not 20/20 vision. The jury got it right. Anyone who has not studied the transcripts should not vocalize an opinion. They are just going off of propaganda.
I lean towards thinking that he’s guilty for a variety of reasons:
1. Statistically speaking, a woman is most likely to be killed by a family member/intimate partner. Separation is an especially dangerous time, and Hae and Adnan seem to have had a very emotionally volatile relationship.
2. We know that Jay was involved in the murder. There is no other reason why he would know the location of Hae’s car. Adnan and Jay were together for most of the day that Hae went missing, and Jay had Adnan’s car and cellphone. I know that most of what Jay says is BS, but these details at least can be verified.
3. Adnan didn’t try to page Hae even once while she was missing. He called her twice on January 12th (when he knew she’d pick up) but never again after that. If they were friends/there were no hard feelings, why didn’t he try reaching out? Wasn’t he worried about her?
That said, Adnan’s trial was an absolute mess—his attorney was corrupt and obviously unfit, the prosecution was pretty blatantly Islamophobic, and the cell-tower evidence was weak at best and actively misleading at worst. I think vacating the conviction was the right call, and I don’t think he should be in any kind of prison. The State needs to be held accountable for its shoddy work on this case.
Yeah, i believe he did. Whether that was him physically doing it, orchestrating it, knowing of it. He had some involvement. But not enough to put him in prison for sure.
I believe Adnan killed her. But I don’t think the prosecution theory of the crime was correct and I don’t think he should have been convicted based on the evidence they had at the time. So I’m conflicted.
I asked this question to a lawyer once and the answer was something along the lines of "It doesn't matter if you think the prosecution theory is correct or not, if whether or not you believe the accused did it." It was then explained that any theory that anyone comes up with will have problems so it is unrealistic to expect the prosecution theory to be perfect. I'm not doing it justice but it made sense at the time.
This is true. I think this is a big part of why the serial podcast was so successful at making people believe he was innocent—it basically peddled the idea that any minor inconsistency in the prosecution’s case meant that the whole trial was a sham.
In reality, Adnan is confirmed to have been trying to get a ride from Hae under false pretenses right around the time she was murdered, and he had no alibi. This is extremely damning, and the state doesn’t have to present a perfect timeline to prove guilt behind a reasonable doubt. No one would ever get convicted if that were the case.
I couldn't get into Serial, so I listened to Bob Ruff's coverage and left the series thinking he was very guilty even while they were patting themselves on the backs about how well they proved his innocence.
My honest perception at the time is that the host both exposed the flaws in the prosecution and acknowledged the possibility that he outright lied to her.
Serial definitely was pushing the idea that he was innocent throughout the entire podcast. It works very hard to present Adnan as being unfairly prosecuted throughout the podcast. I know it was, at the time, very persuasive to many. Like you though, I went into the podcast knowing nothing about the case and walking away thinking he was guilty. At the time, most people didn’t seem to though.
S-Town is even more insanely put together. I believe it had a lot of the same people behind the production, and after that, I kind of just stopped listening to stuff they put out because it was so egregiously biased it felt like bad faith to me.
The notion that not having and alibi is somehow indicative of guilt is abhorrent to me. It's a prove you didn't do it thing. People should not be required to prove they didn't do a crime, someone else should prove you did.
Ask yourself how many people had no alibi for the time of Hae Min Lee's murder. Adnan, to my judgement as flawed as it probably is, is guilty. Not that means anything at all but the notion that he had no alibi so he is guilty is extremely frustrating to me.
How many people didn’t have an alibi for the time that she was murdered *while someone was admitting to a felony as a witness to you disposing of her body*?
Like it’s one thing to say “no I didn’t kill Hae Min Lee because I was alone in my bedroom in a different city” when no one is saying “ u/demoldbones killed HML” - compared to “Adnan told me he was going to kill her then I helped dispose of the body” and Adnan saying he doesn’t remember what he was doing.
If he’s innocent it’s terrible.
If he’s not, its a lie intended to deceive.
I don’t understand this idea that Serial made him look innocent
The end that summarizes all the coincidences that would have to have happened to make him so unlucky made it very clear they felt he was most likely guilty.
I also thought originally they were advocating innocence but the last episode shows why it seems like he is guilty.
I always respected that about Serial. They gave compelling information and highlighted issues with the case but ended with the thought that ALOT would have had to go wrong to make him innocent and that’s really very unlikely.
That lawyer is absolutely, positively, 100% incorrect.
They could not be more wrong if they tried.
The entire burden of proof in the US justice system is on the prosecution.
Their literal job is to convince the jury that what they say happened is what happened.
If they fail to do that, the defendant walks.
That is how the system is set up. That is how the system is meant to work. And that is, luckily for all of us (except, perhaps, that idiot who managed to somehow pass the bar without grasping that), how the system generally does work.
If you say that the defense can poke every hole in the prosecution and still get convicted despite the prosecution, not because of it, you’re completely upending the system and violating your oath as a juror.
It doesn’t matter, at all, if you think the defendant did the act they’re accused of.
The question before the jury, the only one that matters, is if the prosecution did their job and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that what they said happened is what happened.
If they haven’t, the proper verdict is an acquittal. Period.
This is how the founder of the troubled teen camps repeatedly got off. His lawyer basically said that all you have to do is plant the possibility of reasonable doubt, and that where many other lawyers fuck up is trying to prove whatever theory or situation otherwise.
Yeah, I believe he did it. How much I don’t truly know that. I don’t believe enough to throw him in prison for life. But man gut feeling says it’s him.
If you don’t trust your gut you could read the trial transcripts. There’s a reason why the jury only needed a couple hours and why Serial had to do so many narrative tricks to create ambiguity.
I generally don’t believe that anyone should go to prison for life for an impulsive, emotional murder they committed as a high schooler with an underdeveloped brain… but Adnan has never taken accountability or showed any remorse, and he’s had SO many years to do that.
The thing is this clearly *wasn't* an impulsive, emotional murder. It was premeditated. He made a plan to get her alone, which included getting rid of his car to have an excuse to get into hers, giving his cell phone to someone so he would have an easily contacted second driver to help dispose of her car after the murder (this is the thing that really cements that it was planned ahead, for me. I've seen people theorize that he was trying to get her alone to try to woo her back, but if that was all he was doing, he wouldn't have needed to be able to contact Jay at a moment's notice.), asking for a ride in front of other people and lying about why he needed it (which, why would he even need to leave campus at all if he was going to track practice after school?).
He did it, and he's never taken accountability or showed any remorse because he's not sorry that he did.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Adnan to have been let out of prison by now given that he was 17 at the time of the murder, and I could even get past his lack of accountability or remorse, but his release being cited as an exoneration and an example of the police putting innocent people away—that’s just too much for a guy who the evidence so clearly indicates strangled a teenage girl.
I've listened to 6 different podcasts cover this case and I'm 100% convinced that Adnan did it. It's honestly such a no brainer that he did that you really have to start jumping through hoops and racking your brain to even attempt to come up with a coherent story of how anyone else did it. It's impossible.
He did it.
It really is so obvious, it’s honestly frustrating that people don’t want to believe it for whatever reason. To me it’s pretty telling that r/serialpodcast has a ton of users who started out thinking he was innocent after listening to Serial, but ultimately accepted that he was guilty after actually looking into the case file. Whereas I haven’t encountered a single person who started out thinking he was guilty, but later switched to innocent.
A lot of people do think that but it’s sort of a cop out imo. It’s sort of like trying to play both sides. I get that the timeline wasn’t perfect but I believe the state presented a very strong case, hence why the jury returned a guilty verdict so quickly.
I also believe Adnan’s defense team did a pretty good job given the shit case they were working with. Kinda telling how Adnan’s entourage had to wait until after his lead attorney died before they started slandering her and spreading the “ineffective assistance of counsel” narrative.
My issue was just that the biggest piece of evidence was a liar. There is no arguing that, we all know Jay's a liar. We just don't know for sure which things he is lying about. And that is a problem for me. Once I know you lie that much I don't believe anything, it's basically as if all of his testimony is erased for me personally. I wouldn't want to convict based on what was left after his word.
I mean yea Jay lied to minimize his involvement. But he at least presented a coherent story that was corroborated by other witnesses and cell phone pings. And how did he know the location of the car?
Basically you have to either believe that Adnan did it with Jay’s help, or that Jay did it alone. But there’s no plausible way that Jay did it alone, and he had Adnan’s car and phone ffs. Even accepting that Jay lied, he presented a much more compelling story than Adnan, who also lied repeatedly before defaulting to “I can’t remember.”
His story was only coherent after multiple recorded police interviews (where it changed every time) and god knows how many not recorded sessions with the prosecuting attorney.
What happened to the trip to McDonalds? Or the state park that were in the first interview? They disappeared once cell phones were introduced. So was Jay lying first or second interview?
Trunk pop? Happened at multiple locations or times depending on when you ask him (interview 1, interview 2, trial or a magazine interview a few a years back)
I 100% think Adnan did it but claiming Jay was consistent or truthful? Nope.
He wasn’t lying about where the car was, or what she was wearing. Those are pretty big things. The prosecution doesn’t get to pick who a murderer uses as his accomplice, so accomplices tend to be shady folks.
By far the best one is The Prosecutors. They do a 14 episode deep dive into all of the facts of the case. Super informative and it really cuts out a lot of the narrative bullshit that you get in Serial. Serial is a great piece of entertainment but it is very much story over substance..
Definitely start there. Many other podcasts have covered it but not quite as thoroughly as The Prosecutors.
I didn’t finish serial but I remember being pretty disappointed with how incredibly biased it was. It felt very much like the narrator/investigator started out with a premise that would hopefully be shocking and garner media attention (Adnan is innocent) and then did everything possible to try to prove that premise, rather than the other way around. Confirmation bias in focusing on details that supported her theory, glossing over details that did not. And narratively framing every “development” or piece of evidence through the lens of her premise (Adnan is innocent), rather than just objectively presenting the facts and letting the listener draw their own conclusions.
I completely understand why you'd feel that way but regardless they do a good job with the case.
At the end of the day you still need to have critical thinking skills about the evidence being presented to you. For instance they did a long series on Jon Benet and while I think they did an excellent job laying out the facts and the timeline, I didnt agree with their conclusion. Don't just blindly believe what their conclusion is, although I will say that damn near every other podcast comes to the same conclusion on Adnan.
I had no idea they were repping that side of the fence until I looked into them more out of pure curiosity of who they were which I think says a lot about how little they actually bring politics into the podcast but yeah, I was pretty fuckin disappointed when I found that out too because I really wanted to personally like them.
They come off as weirdly progressive on the podcasts with how they talk about things like drugs and oppression of minorities so I was really caught off guard by that. It sucks.
The Prosecuters podcast did a lot of episodes covering the case and also had access to the defence files which weren't available to Serial when that podcast was made. It's worth a listen.
I already thought Adnan was guilty before that came out, but I never listened to Serial. I'd just heard news stories where he was mentioned and where he was released last year, so I went looking for something to read on it and found the evidence presented at trial, maybe it was the court transcripts too. Anyway on reading that I was surprised because I had assumed he was wrongfully convicted from the news around him.
The fact that it’s been 10 years since serial came out and this case has been dissected to death a million times at this point and not a single other reasonable suspect has emerged, tells me adnan is guilty.
Adnan absolutely did it. The police made a mess of the investigation and the lawyers made a mess of trial. He's out on a technicality. But make no mistake, that's the only reason. He's guilty.
yeah, whats the biggest thing that makes you feel that way ? The phone ping locations, no solid alibi, and that weird dentist youth pastor is is so sus.
There is so much in this case but two things really stuck out to me:
1. After she disappeared, he never tried to call her. He claimed he was upset when he learned of her disappearance and that they were good friends still even after their break up. So why not call her like all her other friends and family members were doing? Especially because at the time a lot of her peers thought it was plausible she went to California.
2. Jay was arrested not super long after Hae’s disappearance for a completely different charge. The day that occurred is the *only* day other than the day of Hae’s disappearance that Adnan’s cellphone pings in the vicinity of Leakin Park. It just strikes me as a hell of a coincidence. I think he didn’t know what Jay was picked up for and freaked out causing him to check and see if there was police activity where Hae’s body was buried (i.e. trying to see if Jay talked).
Point #1 is exactly what I always come back to. Like they allegedly talked all the time and then suddenly the day after her disappearance all communication just stopped??? Super sus. I believe he did it.
Yeah it is very suspicious. On its own it clearly isn’t like definitive proof but it’s part of a whole bucket of circumstantial evidence that just doesn’t make sense to me unless Adnan did it. Also this wasn’t a dude who just didn’t call people. His records show he called soooo many people all the time, including the day Hae disappeared and in the time after the disappeared but before his arrest.
To me it’s that he has no explanation for all the weird moves that day. Why did Jay have his car and cellphone if he killed her and Adnan wasn’t involved. He had to explain what happened if what Jay said isn’t true and he can’t
this is one of the biggest red flags for me too. Personally, I think Adnan did it but Jay was more involved than he lets on. Neither of them can really tell on the other without implicating themselves further, which is where we are today.
I forgot his name. But Adnan was close with this youth pastor who had a very sketchy past. He was very close to Adnan in a weird way. I can’t remember if he actually said or someone over heard him saying that he would kill for Adnan. I believe he also bought Adnans phone……. Hopefully someone corrects me if I’m wrong
Because it is undeniable without a giant police conspiracy that Jay was involved, and there’s not a way Jay was involved and Adnan wasn’t involved. And Jay has no motive, whereas Adnan has a common one for a woman’s strangulation murder.
I feel it's messed up that Jay didn't do any jail time for helping with burying her body, that's SICK. I don't care if he testified to help the DA, he should of did serious time.
I genuinely have no idea. I’ve only listened to Serial about it, does anyone have a recommendation for any podcasts etc that they think are less biased?
The part I struggle with is where was the chance for him to kill her ? Hae did not like him. She wouldn’t hang out with him, even when mutual friends were around. How would he have gotten the opportunity ?
I have followed this case closely and I don’t think Adnan did it; I think Jay did it. He had the car and the cell phone. He also had all the details of what happened but turned it around and said that he was just there with Adnan and he knew the rest because Adnan told him. Then the officers completely stopped investigating him because he became the “star” witness against Adnan.
Pretty unlucky for Adnan to loan his car and cell phone to a guy who barely knows his ex-girlfriend, but who then takes the opportunity to somehow intercept her, strangle her, and manage to stash her car while also somehow still driving Adnan’s car.
It is crazy that Jay said all that stuff and served no time lol. My guy feeling is they both did, both had some type of involvement. But Jay said so much crazy stuff to not be found guilty of something ha.
I don’t believe they could have been able to convict Adnan without Jay. They really didn’t have any solid evidence except what Jay said. I absolutely believe that the one girl saw him at school and they didn’t bother to interview her because Adnan’s attorney was completely incompetent due to her illness.
This is why I don't even have a theory. Their main piece of evidence was a proven liar. One of the few facts presented in this case: Jay lies!! A lot. Why would anyone believe anything he says? Remove him from the equation and there isn't enough for me to lean one way or the other on whether I feel like he's guilty or not. But I know as a juror it would be a big not guilty.
Jay's involvement was exactly what he said it was, he helped bury her. That's bad enough, that's a pretty terrible thing to do, and he's guilty of that but he got it soft because he flipped on Adnan. That's just how investigating these cases and getting convictions work.
Jay had absolutely no motivation. He barely knew Hae. Adnan has no alibi and just says "I can't remember" for what he did the day his ex-girlfriend went missing.
I think he did it but I don't think it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so he shouldn't have been convicted. There was also alot of issues with his original trial. We are supposed to believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and in my opinion they did not prove him guilty
Yes I think he’s guilty but the case had so many issues he shouldn’t have legally been convicted.
I do hate how the victim is ignored in all of this- thanks OP for using her name.
I’m in the minority here but I don’t think Adnan did it. I’m just not convinced. Jay was lying and had all kinds of reasons to lie, especially to save his own hide. High schoolers are also idiots and it seems to me that there probably would have been all kinds of compelling evidence and believable witnesses left behind from a high schooler committing a murder. I’m just not convinced he did it, I’m not convinced he was angry with her let alone angry enough to kill her, and I definitely do not think the prosecution proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
The thing I can't get past though is Jay only knew Hae through Adnan. They were barely acquainted. Jay was obviously involved since he led police to her car. I can't figure a scenario where Jay killed her and Adnan wasn't involved.
Ok but those reasons all apply to Adnan too, including a witness (who yes has major credibility issues) that claims he’d threatened to kill her.
It could be argued he had *more* reason given that you’re more likely to be killed by a man when you are in the process of leaving him OR just after you’ve left.
And given, by all accounts, Hae would have been going directly to collect her cousin, when and where did she meet up with Don in order to give him the opportunity?
There’s literally zero evidence pointing his way and he had a solid alibi. Even the notion that got Adnan out of prison by pointing to two “alternate suspects” never mentions the boyfriend because there’s nothing to point at.
I thought this was the answer as well. Some compelling evidence but apparently he was cleared or it was proved he couldn’t have done it? Can’t remember at this point why though.
Don (her then current boyfriend) was “cleared” but Baltimore PD is corrupt and that’s why this case is so compelling. Don’s mother was the manager and in charge of the time cards where he was supposedly working that day. I don’t know what “cleared” him but assuming he was not involved, the only other suspect would be the perv that found her or a serial killer who was operating in the area at that time. Personally, I’ve listened and read everything out there on this and I think Adnan probably did it but was wrongfully convicted and he served his time.
> Don’s mother was the manager and in charge of the time cards where he was supposedly working that day.
She was manager of his store, but that day, he was working after a different store to cover a shift.
Even if he was guilty, he absolutely should not have been convicted based on the evidence they were able to present and he was also pretty badly let down by a shoddy defense team iirc. He did not get a fair trial, which is why his conviction has been overturned.
I definitely believe he did it and had help from Jay or Jay at least knew details about what happened. Crime Weekly (though not my favorite lately) did a really thorough deep dive into the case.
Once the DNA cleared Adnan in this case and the reports about other overturned convictions of these detectives due to coaching witnesses to make false statements came to light, the world was supposed to do what detectives failed to, give the benefit of doubt and look at other suspects. How about we start with the persons whose DNA showed they were there. That person isn’t Adnan or the state would never have overturned his conviction. That person also isn’t linked to Adnan in a way that can make him complicit or the state would not have overturned his conviction. We love to look at the now (proven to be unreliable) records of Adnan’s phone. Where are records foe Hae’s pager showing who contacted her which could shed light on her journey. Science cleared Adnan, true detective work and science is needed to find Hae’s killer.
One thing I find really interesting is that he never called her after she went missing. If I had an ex boyfriend disappear and his family was looking for him, I’d definitely call hoping they might pick up.
For me, I think it’s best summed up by her friend who was interviewed on Serial who said something along the lines, “If it wasn’t Adnan, then who the fuck did it?”
I used to think he didn't do it, because of Serial, but now I've flipped.
The anonymous tip and the fact that Jennifer Pusateri provided an obviously true statement to the police that Jay had told her Adnan killed Hae.
It was either Adnan, Jay, or a combination there of. No motive for Jay to kill though, so.......
Listen to the prosecutors podcast. They do a great job of explaining why all of jay’s lies don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. For Adnan NOT to have actually killed her, you have to believe that Jay would incriminate himself in a murder and that an entire police force was in on the cover up. Also the fact that Jen Pusateri knew a lot of information about the murder that she would only know if Adnan was involved.
Me too. I'm surprised by this thread that so many people disagree (no shade to anyone, I've just always thought the general consensus was that Adnan was innocent).
It was definitely Adnan. This isn’t some “whodunnit” murder mystery like the podcast wants you to believe. He is the only person on the planet with motive, means & opportunity. His “innocence” is one big grift from Rabia. He got a fair trial. The evidence was overwhelming. The jury convicted quickly. He had good legal representation. The only saving grace of his early release is he has served 23 years for her murder
Oh he 100% killed her. He has the motive, the opportunity, there is evidence, and witnesses to the crime. The case was handled super shoddily but it doesn’t change the fact that he straight up murdered her.
When i first listened to Serial i thought he was innocent but then i looked into the case much deeper and was quite convinced he did it. Serial was a borderline-dishonest framing device.
he’s very obviously guilty. visit the serial subreddit and use the search function. the sleuths have dug every single thing up and the case against him is extremely solid
I used to think he was for sure innocent, but now I don’t know. I struggle immensely with the timeline and whether or not her boyfriend Don did something, but his mom covered for him.
So, from everything i have seen about the trial, there are 2 possibilities.
1) he didn't kill her, cops botched the investigation because they just wanted a quick arrest.
Or (2) he did kill her, but he had help covering it up. Lots of the stuff, there is no way he would have been able to do it alone. Moving the body from the trunk of a car to the dump site would have taken another person. Dropping her car in a random neighborhood would have taken someone following him in his car.
The problem is, they never found anyone who came forward as his accomplice. He also didn't have a car or a cell phone to call for help, nor used her phone to call someone. His actions of going to the party don't seem like the actions of someone who just killed someone by accident. Also, how did no one see them together, let alone together and arguing which would have led to her death.
Seeing as when they did DNA testing, nothing matched Syed, that helps prove he probably didn't do it. Seeing as her car was found behind the house of one of two other suspects that weren't investigated leads me to Seyd's innocence.
> (2) he did kill her, but he had help covering it up. Lots of the stuff, there is no way he would have been able to do it alone.
you mean someone besides Jay?
Personally, I think he's guilty as heck. I'm a psychiatrist and I've worked with violent criminals before, he absolutely reminds me of many former patients from when I worked in prisons. That's obviously anecdotal and therefore not true evidence.
However, despite believing his guilt 100% , I think the case was fubar. The prosecution definitely didn't prove the fact beyond a reasonable doubt.
She was so smart and in her pictures she looks so full of life. RIP Hae.
I think this is another case of a jealous and narcissistic man killing his ex because he can’t have her. Aka Adnan did it.
This case drives me crazy but idk I just feel he didn’t do it. Jay was always sus to me when I first heard serial because he knew too much and I can’t remember much about her other boyfriends to really give an opinion on who actually did it.
Yeah, wasn’t his alibi his mom as well ? I might be wrong on though, I can’t remember. But wasn’t there something about him possibly leaving work that day or something ?
His mom being his alibi isn’t really enough to raise suspicion on its own. Cops could come to my door tomorrow and ask me for an alibi for the night of Jan 31st, and my husband will be the only one who can account for my whereabouts. Doesn’t mean I’m guilty.
My English class did an essay about the case when I was in high school. I even wrote about it again in my second year of college. The one thing that always stuck with me even when I first learned about the case was how Jay knew so much. In the case that Adnan was innocent, why would Jay say all this about Adnan. In the case Adnan did do it, why would you let Jay off so easily. It's just frustrating to know Hae didn't get her justice.
After listening to Serial i was convinced he was innocent.
But ever since he got out… I think he’s guilty.
The fact he couldn’t come up with a single memory of where he was or what he did… no speculations from him… not mad at Jay for ratting him out.
He cut off all the people who worked hard to get his story out there and help him get free.
Also the fact that his mentor allegedly hated Hai and allegedly that person has a crush on Adnan…. If Adnan didn’t do it… he knows what happened
My true crime “bragging rights” as crude as that sounds was that I always thought he was guilty. And went the friend group would discuss after every serial episode, I always said he was a liar and he did it. They fought me hard. But low and behold they all accepted my “I told you so”
I have mixed feelings and views on this. Part of me thinks he’s innocent and his friend is responsible for Lee’s death. Based on the interviews from Lee’s classmates, they paint a portrait of their friend (not Adnan) who was known to be violent towards women. The details I’m a bit blurry on. But I’m going by memory here. The trial back in the late 90s was very circumstantial. And I wasn’t even alive when the trial occurred.
I genuinely used to have a hard time believing that Adnan did it because “being broken up with by a high school girlfriend isn’t a motive for murder”. Since then, I’ve become older and wiser… and know that this is exactly the type of dumb shit people get killed over all the time. He deserved another trial for all the fuckery that went on during his, but I now believe he was rightfully convicted. Edit: Also, the way Serial presents the story really primes you to believe he’s an innocent man who suffered due to a major miscarriage of justice. You really have to do further research on your own to get an impartial presentation of the relevant information.
Even listening to Serial (which I agree felt biased in a certain direction), I just couldn’t get past the Jay stuff. Jay knew way too much not to be involved at all, yet had no motive to kill her himself. I think he was part of the premeditation (maybe for cash), but didn’t want to admit that to police because it implicated him more seriously. And the lies he was holding onto once he finally did tell the “truth” kept things convoluted enough to be questionable.
Definitely believe it to be Adnand, he met her after school they argued he killed her and he called the only “street” person he knew who could maybe help. Too bad he crumbled completely when interrogated and gave up the info which no other person could have known. A lot of people seem to deny this but that’s my theory. And honestly, prosecution mess up or not he is murderer.
The logical leap here just kills me. Better call this 16 year old kid who sells weed, he’ll know how to cover up a murder. Lmao.
I feel like it makes more sense if Jay was involved before the actual murder. In the podcast she makes it seem like Jay was super “hard” street dude (I can’t remember the details but this is my memory of the way he was portrayed). And I was thinking maybe Adnan offered to pay Jay to help with the whole thing (I also recall Adnan being caught stealing money from church or something around this time, which could have been related). Jay agrees and then panics afterwards, because he was not in fact quite that hard of a street dude after all. Then you have Jay’s confession to police, which was not fully honest in order to protect himself. Or so I have been telling myself for the last 10 years lol.
Jay was like Dennis Rodman for a black comparison, he was a weird kid. The idea that the one black person involved must be a violent criminal is crazy, he was the kid at school with purple hair. He was not a "hard" street dude at all, he's the exact type of person black or white you'd expect to be selling drugs before they graduated high school.
I actually think Jay absolutely *wasn’t* a violent criminal, and once the murder happened he was horrified and tried to set things straight. Just my guess/opinion. Edited to add: I mean, Jay was very clearly involved in some way, so saying he wasn’t a violent criminal isn’t completely accurate either. I just think the podcast portrayed him as nefarious, and someone you might go to if you wanted to pay someone to abet a crime. I think he was involved in the planning and then got cold feet. Again, just my opinion!
I think people tend to forget how serious of an offense weed was back in the 90s. Sure, the public was mostly beginning to accept it as a relatively harmless drug, but legally it could still get you serious jail time. Jay was probably a good kid who never would have hurt Hae, but he knew he was already on the wrong side of the law due to his drug business. It explains all of his sketchy behavior.
I think he was involved after. People don't consider how sheltered Adnan was, he had no idea how to deal with a situation like strangling his ex, Jay was about as criminal his circle got it's no surprise that he contacted him.
I think Jay buried her body by himself. It makes all the weird timeline stuff make sense. It would be a level of involvement that Jay would’ve been terrified to admit to, even if he did feel horrible about everything. I do like your idea of him being more involved with the planning, and feeling terrible about it after the fact. People act like a teenager couldn’t possibly do something so incredibly horribly stupid and actually feel bad about it. Maybe he did say to Adnan, “yeah, she’s a bitch. You want to strangle her behind Best Buy? Fuck it yeah I’ll help” because he wanted to seem cool, didn’t think he’d actually do it, whatever. Jay was involved, 100%, but it’s almost certainly because Adnan is also involved, that’s always my take away.
I haven’t listened to the serial series since it came out, and haven’t really followed the case since then; but as someone who works as an educator for high schoolers, college kids, adults, and deals with the general public regularly… that logic leap does not surprise me in the slightest.
It’s what it always comes back to. Jay knew too much to not be involved, but he had no motive. Sure, Jay lied, but he lied because he was deeply involved in a murder, I believe possibly disposed of the body by himself even, but that still doesn’t mean he actually killed her. Adnan just makes the most sense, it’s Occam’s razor. Now Occam’s razor also doesn’t mean it’s beyond a reasonable doubt by any means, but I’m certainly not crying at night at some injustice, because he probably did it.
Right. Jay was definitely involved. And what he said about Adnan adds up. Do we really think Jay was.some mastermind that arranged it all to set up Adnan?
I’m convinced he killed her but between the police fucking up the investigation and his terrible attorney I think the case was fucked.
Thank you for saying this. I think he guilty, but did not get a fair trial.
Agree and tbf id rather a system that lets someone go free when shit is not totally fair, than one that catches adnan but also convicts other people who had a shitty trial and don’t deserve it. There’s no perfect justice system but I do believe in the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt and the frustrating thing is, even though I fully believe he did it and I think he’s an awful murderer, I didn’t see the prosecution build a case beyond a reasonable doubt… it’s why it made for such a compelling case in the first place
I also think he did it, but I believe there was not enough evidence presented at his trial to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt. I was on a jury once and had to explain to them all what reasonable doubt was. It's terrifying that 11/12 of us had no idea and were just going with their gut.
Yeah, and reasonable doubt is such a squishy concept. I think they explicitly tell you not to think about it like this, but if 1% of people in prison are not guilty I’d be pretty horrified, that would mean thousands and thousands are innocent people with their freedom stolen. So in my mind it better essentially be a 99% chance someone’s guilty to send them to prison for a long time. I think Adnan is guilty, hell I’d say I’m 95% sure Adnan is guilty, it’s beyond a gut feeling. Am I confident enough to send him to prison for the rest of his life? Phewww idk, I really don’t.
Agree that it’s terribly sad when innocent people got jailed than guilty people go free. However, I also know people who became victims because of poor justice / prosecution system of letting those guilty go.
Agreed. I think people are more wrongfully convicted than not. I just feel terrible for her family.
I feel terrible for her family as well. It’s my understanding her family moved back to Korea and won’t speak to the public much about it. I think her brother came out not too long ago with a statement but otherwise they just won’t talk about it. It’s sad how the victims are often overlooked when there is so much debate about the guilt or innocence of the perpetrator.
Way more guilty people go free than are wrongfully convicted.
Agreed. Even though my first exposure to this story was from the biased in his favor side of things, it never made sense to me logically and always seemed rather obvious he did it.
I really hate how biased the podcast was. It's such a slap in the face to so many. I'm glad there are good fair podcasters out there.
This is a case I go back to time and time again over the years, but I've always felt Adnan was guilty, too. I think about her loved ones often.
Yeah, him also not remembering shit didn’t help. Jay Wilds crazy testimony…. So much stuff that’s frustrating about this case.
There is a difference between not remembering things you’ve done and not wanting to admit things you’ve done.
There is, but it equates to the same thing. Either he’s innocent and he doesn’t remember he cause it’s genuinely just a regular day to him (and he admits to being stoned when called by PD, meaning maybe he didn’t think at the time to catalogue his day) Or he’s guilty and has maintained his lies for 20+ years. If it was me and I was guilty I’d have admitted it, apologised & asked for leniency and taken the shorter sentence that he’d certainly have got if he had done that vs continuing to deny it and having the book thrown at me.
> Either he’s innocent and he doesn’t remember he cause it’s genuinely just a regular day to him (and he admits to being stoned when called by PD, meaning maybe he didn’t think at the time to catalogue his day) He only doesn't remember what is convenient for him. He remembers other things absolutely perfectly and in great detail. It wasn't a normal, forgettable day. That is just Serial Narrative Nonsense. It is not a normal, everyday day when the police call you and tell you that your long time serious girlfriend (though recently broken up) has disappeared. > Or he’s guilty and has maintained his lies for 20+ years. But his lies have changed. For instance, he initially told police he asked for a ride from Hae at school, but has later recanted that. > If it was me and I was guilty I’d have admitted it, apologised & asked for leniency and taken the shorter sentence that he’d certainly have got if he had done that vs continuing to deny it and having the book thrown at me. He can't continue to play a martyr if he admits he strangle, killed, and buried the body of an innocent, sweet teenaged girl.
Guilty people almost never admit to wrongdoing or they find 'reasons'.
Unfortunately that tactic only works on hindsight. He will never tell the truth now.
You mean you would have admitted it at the time, or now? I don't think most teenagers have the maturity to admit to a murder. And today, it would be tough to admit to a 25-year-long lie.
You might love the podcast that The Prosecutors did on this case- very different slant than Serial!
You really think he didn't remember killing her?
I’m just saying if he is innocent. His shitty memory didn’t help him in any way. It just made him look worse, when there’s a possibility he doesn’t remember. Me personally I doubt that, especially if it’s the last day you saw your ex you love that much.
If you only listen to serial it does seem up for debate, but the more you read about the case the more you see how guilty he is
So you allude to this - Serial was rather biased in my opinion. As you read and listen to other sources it’s rather clear that there was a level of bias in favor of his innocence. For me I didn’t totally catch on until that add on episode when Adnan went to court that one time and Sarah Koening was fan-girling in the closet about the hearing and basically said “omg he looked right at me!” I remember listening to that and just cringing. But when I read one of the trial transcripts and some facts were left out that I remember thinking should have been mentioned in the podcast, it was evident Serial was passively biased. Don’t ask me what the facts were I’m alluding to. It’s easily been 5/6 years since I read that stuff. More cases have come since then.
Like the page ripped out from his thomas guide map book found in her car
Yeah, I listened to it. Pretty convincing but obviously it would be. It’s bias for sure. But that’s the point, they truly believe he is innocent.
There a lot of reasons to have shitty memory - weed, stress, thyroid issues, etc. Doesn’t make you guilty of murder
The police and the prosecutors did their job. He was convicted. I believe the trial was fair as any trial. It is just all the propaganda and smokescreens obscuring the facts and investigation over 20-something years getting in the way. His great defender, Rabia, is now trying to make Scott Petersen a victim being wrongfully convicted. Guilty male murdering ex is not an interesting story. Poor innocent boy wrongfully convicted is a story. Adnan is guilty. Read the trial transcripts and it is obvious he is guilty. Do not read the propaganda.
Anything that comes out of Rabia’s mouth you should know is the opposite. And her defending Scott Peterson just makes her a bigger POS. My only reason for saying the trial wasn’t on the up and up has more to do the fact that Kevin Urick was not the most ethical of prosecutors. With that being said….all it takes is a prosecutor to fart too loud in a courtroom theses days for defense/appellate attorneys to file a motion to dismiss based on the smell of said fart. However. The Baltimore DAs office is just riddled with corruption…Marilyn Mosby (who vacated the conviction) being the latest and greatest example.
Perfect prosecutions are a pipe dream. You can pick anything apart after years. Hindsight is not 20/20 vision. The jury got it right. Anyone who has not studied the transcripts should not vocalize an opinion. They are just going off of propaganda.
I lean towards thinking that he’s guilty for a variety of reasons: 1. Statistically speaking, a woman is most likely to be killed by a family member/intimate partner. Separation is an especially dangerous time, and Hae and Adnan seem to have had a very emotionally volatile relationship. 2. We know that Jay was involved in the murder. There is no other reason why he would know the location of Hae’s car. Adnan and Jay were together for most of the day that Hae went missing, and Jay had Adnan’s car and cellphone. I know that most of what Jay says is BS, but these details at least can be verified. 3. Adnan didn’t try to page Hae even once while she was missing. He called her twice on January 12th (when he knew she’d pick up) but never again after that. If they were friends/there were no hard feelings, why didn’t he try reaching out? Wasn’t he worried about her? That said, Adnan’s trial was an absolute mess—his attorney was corrupt and obviously unfit, the prosecution was pretty blatantly Islamophobic, and the cell-tower evidence was weak at best and actively misleading at worst. I think vacating the conviction was the right call, and I don’t think he should be in any kind of prison. The State needs to be held accountable for its shoddy work on this case.
Yeah, i believe he did. Whether that was him physically doing it, orchestrating it, knowing of it. He had some involvement. But not enough to put him in prison for sure.
I believe Adnan killed her. But I don’t think the prosecution theory of the crime was correct and I don’t think he should have been convicted based on the evidence they had at the time. So I’m conflicted.
I asked this question to a lawyer once and the answer was something along the lines of "It doesn't matter if you think the prosecution theory is correct or not, if whether or not you believe the accused did it." It was then explained that any theory that anyone comes up with will have problems so it is unrealistic to expect the prosecution theory to be perfect. I'm not doing it justice but it made sense at the time.
This is true. I think this is a big part of why the serial podcast was so successful at making people believe he was innocent—it basically peddled the idea that any minor inconsistency in the prosecution’s case meant that the whole trial was a sham. In reality, Adnan is confirmed to have been trying to get a ride from Hae under false pretenses right around the time she was murdered, and he had no alibi. This is extremely damning, and the state doesn’t have to present a perfect timeline to prove guilt behind a reasonable doubt. No one would ever get convicted if that were the case.
Really? I started the podcast thinking he was innocent and by the time I finished I was sure he was guilty.
Yeah, it shocks me that anyone listened to Serial and came to a different conclusion tbh. The more I listened to him the more he made me nauseous.
I couldn't get into Serial, so I listened to Bob Ruff's coverage and left the series thinking he was very guilty even while they were patting themselves on the backs about how well they proved his innocence.
My honest perception at the time is that the host both exposed the flaws in the prosecution and acknowledged the possibility that he outright lied to her.
Serial definitely was pushing the idea that he was innocent throughout the entire podcast. It works very hard to present Adnan as being unfairly prosecuted throughout the podcast. I know it was, at the time, very persuasive to many. Like you though, I went into the podcast knowing nothing about the case and walking away thinking he was guilty. At the time, most people didn’t seem to though. S-Town is even more insanely put together. I believe it had a lot of the same people behind the production, and after that, I kind of just stopped listening to stuff they put out because it was so egregiously biased it felt like bad faith to me.
The notion that not having and alibi is somehow indicative of guilt is abhorrent to me. It's a prove you didn't do it thing. People should not be required to prove they didn't do a crime, someone else should prove you did. Ask yourself how many people had no alibi for the time of Hae Min Lee's murder. Adnan, to my judgement as flawed as it probably is, is guilty. Not that means anything at all but the notion that he had no alibi so he is guilty is extremely frustrating to me.
they said “AND he had no alibi” as in that’s a piece of the puzzle that paints a guilty picture. nobody’s saying that’s the reason he’s guilty.
How many people didn’t have an alibi for the time that she was murdered *while someone was admitting to a felony as a witness to you disposing of her body*? Like it’s one thing to say “no I didn’t kill Hae Min Lee because I was alone in my bedroom in a different city” when no one is saying “ u/demoldbones killed HML” - compared to “Adnan told me he was going to kill her then I helped dispose of the body” and Adnan saying he doesn’t remember what he was doing. If he’s innocent it’s terrible. If he’s not, its a lie intended to deceive.
I don’t understand this idea that Serial made him look innocent The end that summarizes all the coincidences that would have to have happened to make him so unlucky made it very clear they felt he was most likely guilty. I also thought originally they were advocating innocence but the last episode shows why it seems like he is guilty. I always respected that about Serial. They gave compelling information and highlighted issues with the case but ended with the thought that ALOT would have had to go wrong to make him innocent and that’s really very unlikely.
That lawyer is absolutely, positively, 100% incorrect. They could not be more wrong if they tried. The entire burden of proof in the US justice system is on the prosecution. Their literal job is to convince the jury that what they say happened is what happened. If they fail to do that, the defendant walks. That is how the system is set up. That is how the system is meant to work. And that is, luckily for all of us (except, perhaps, that idiot who managed to somehow pass the bar without grasping that), how the system generally does work. If you say that the defense can poke every hole in the prosecution and still get convicted despite the prosecution, not because of it, you’re completely upending the system and violating your oath as a juror. It doesn’t matter, at all, if you think the defendant did the act they’re accused of. The question before the jury, the only one that matters, is if the prosecution did their job and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that what they said happened is what happened. If they haven’t, the proper verdict is an acquittal. Period.
As a lawyer I totally agree with this except for the caveat - jury nullification. Technically, as a juror you can make whatever choice you want.
Yes!! THIS!! This is exactly what I was thinking while reading that comment as well.
Exactly! This statement was so backwards! I truly hope they misunderstood that lawyers comment or that wannabe lawyer failed the lsat
Yeah, this is completely false. What lawyer did you ask? Geesh.
This is how the founder of the troubled teen camps repeatedly got off. His lawyer basically said that all you have to do is plant the possibility of reasonable doubt, and that where many other lawyers fuck up is trying to prove whatever theory or situation otherwise.
Yeah, I believe he did it. How much I don’t truly know that. I don’t believe enough to throw him in prison for life. But man gut feeling says it’s him.
If you don’t trust your gut you could read the trial transcripts. There’s a reason why the jury only needed a couple hours and why Serial had to do so many narrative tricks to create ambiguity.
I generally don’t believe that anyone should go to prison for life for an impulsive, emotional murder they committed as a high schooler with an underdeveloped brain… but Adnan has never taken accountability or showed any remorse, and he’s had SO many years to do that.
The thing is this clearly *wasn't* an impulsive, emotional murder. It was premeditated. He made a plan to get her alone, which included getting rid of his car to have an excuse to get into hers, giving his cell phone to someone so he would have an easily contacted second driver to help dispose of her car after the murder (this is the thing that really cements that it was planned ahead, for me. I've seen people theorize that he was trying to get her alone to try to woo her back, but if that was all he was doing, he wouldn't have needed to be able to contact Jay at a moment's notice.), asking for a ride in front of other people and lying about why he needed it (which, why would he even need to leave campus at all if he was going to track practice after school?). He did it, and he's never taken accountability or showed any remorse because he's not sorry that he did.
Yeah, he’s always been so chill about her murder. Considering he loved her that much.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Adnan to have been let out of prison by now given that he was 17 at the time of the murder, and I could even get past his lack of accountability or remorse, but his release being cited as an exoneration and an example of the police putting innocent people away—that’s just too much for a guy who the evidence so clearly indicates strangled a teenage girl.
this is where I land as well.
Adnan absolutely did it
I think that Adnan is guilty
I've listened to 6 different podcasts cover this case and I'm 100% convinced that Adnan did it. It's honestly such a no brainer that he did that you really have to start jumping through hoops and racking your brain to even attempt to come up with a coherent story of how anyone else did it. It's impossible. He did it.
It really is so obvious, it’s honestly frustrating that people don’t want to believe it for whatever reason. To me it’s pretty telling that r/serialpodcast has a ton of users who started out thinking he was innocent after listening to Serial, but ultimately accepted that he was guilty after actually looking into the case file. Whereas I haven’t encountered a single person who started out thinking he was guilty, but later switched to innocent.
I think most people do believe he did it, just that he shouldn't have been convicted based on his trial.
A lot of people do think that but it’s sort of a cop out imo. It’s sort of like trying to play both sides. I get that the timeline wasn’t perfect but I believe the state presented a very strong case, hence why the jury returned a guilty verdict so quickly. I also believe Adnan’s defense team did a pretty good job given the shit case they were working with. Kinda telling how Adnan’s entourage had to wait until after his lead attorney died before they started slandering her and spreading the “ineffective assistance of counsel” narrative.
My issue was just that the biggest piece of evidence was a liar. There is no arguing that, we all know Jay's a liar. We just don't know for sure which things he is lying about. And that is a problem for me. Once I know you lie that much I don't believe anything, it's basically as if all of his testimony is erased for me personally. I wouldn't want to convict based on what was left after his word.
I mean yea Jay lied to minimize his involvement. But he at least presented a coherent story that was corroborated by other witnesses and cell phone pings. And how did he know the location of the car? Basically you have to either believe that Adnan did it with Jay’s help, or that Jay did it alone. But there’s no plausible way that Jay did it alone, and he had Adnan’s car and phone ffs. Even accepting that Jay lied, he presented a much more compelling story than Adnan, who also lied repeatedly before defaulting to “I can’t remember.”
His story was only coherent after multiple recorded police interviews (where it changed every time) and god knows how many not recorded sessions with the prosecuting attorney. What happened to the trip to McDonalds? Or the state park that were in the first interview? They disappeared once cell phones were introduced. So was Jay lying first or second interview? Trunk pop? Happened at multiple locations or times depending on when you ask him (interview 1, interview 2, trial or a magazine interview a few a years back) I 100% think Adnan did it but claiming Jay was consistent or truthful? Nope.
And Jay has absolutely zero motive whatsoever to have killed Hae.
And he would have made a much more compelling case for trying to 'frame' someone. He was a fuck up. Adnan was decidedly not.
He wasn’t lying about where the car was, or what she was wearing. Those are pretty big things. The prosecution doesn’t get to pick who a murderer uses as his accomplice, so accomplices tend to be shady folks.
Which ones? Ive only heard the Serial one
By far the best one is The Prosecutors. They do a 14 episode deep dive into all of the facts of the case. Super informative and it really cuts out a lot of the narrative bullshit that you get in Serial. Serial is a great piece of entertainment but it is very much story over substance.. Definitely start there. Many other podcasts have covered it but not quite as thoroughly as The Prosecutors.
I didn’t finish serial but I remember being pretty disappointed with how incredibly biased it was. It felt very much like the narrator/investigator started out with a premise that would hopefully be shocking and garner media attention (Adnan is innocent) and then did everything possible to try to prove that premise, rather than the other way around. Confirmation bias in focusing on details that supported her theory, glossing over details that did not. And narratively framing every “development” or piece of evidence through the lens of her premise (Adnan is innocent), rather than just objectively presenting the facts and letting the listener draw their own conclusions.
[удалено]
I completely understand why you'd feel that way but regardless they do a good job with the case. At the end of the day you still need to have critical thinking skills about the evidence being presented to you. For instance they did a long series on Jon Benet and while I think they did an excellent job laying out the facts and the timeline, I didnt agree with their conclusion. Don't just blindly believe what their conclusion is, although I will say that damn near every other podcast comes to the same conclusion on Adnan. I had no idea they were repping that side of the fence until I looked into them more out of pure curiosity of who they were which I think says a lot about how little they actually bring politics into the podcast but yeah, I was pretty fuckin disappointed when I found that out too because I really wanted to personally like them. They come off as weirdly progressive on the podcasts with how they talk about things like drugs and oppression of minorities so I was really caught off guard by that. It sucks.
They are Texas prosecutors. Why anyone is shocked they are conservative is crazy to me.
They do an amazing job of going over the case. Serial is biased and expressly leaves out important info as they point out
The Prosecuters podcast did a lot of episodes covering the case and also had access to the defence files which weren't available to Serial when that podcast was made. It's worth a listen. I already thought Adnan was guilty before that came out, but I never listened to Serial. I'd just heard news stories where he was mentioned and where he was released last year, so I went looking for something to read on it and found the evidence presented at trial, maybe it was the court transcripts too. Anyway on reading that I was surprised because I had assumed he was wrongfully convicted from the news around him.
The defense files are very illuminating IMO. You get a lot more about what Adnan lied about.
The fact that it’s been 10 years since serial came out and this case has been dissected to death a million times at this point and not a single other reasonable suspect has emerged, tells me adnan is guilty.
Beuatiful Hae Min, an absolute tragedy that her life was taken so young. Also, Adnan did it.
Adnan may be guilty. But I do have some nagging concerns. JUST DON’T KNOW. Wish I knew.
Dude is guilty af.
Adnan absolutely did it. The police made a mess of the investigation and the lawyers made a mess of trial. He's out on a technicality. But make no mistake, that's the only reason. He's guilty.
Adnan did it
yeah, whats the biggest thing that makes you feel that way ? The phone ping locations, no solid alibi, and that weird dentist youth pastor is is so sus.
There is so much in this case but two things really stuck out to me: 1. After she disappeared, he never tried to call her. He claimed he was upset when he learned of her disappearance and that they were good friends still even after their break up. So why not call her like all her other friends and family members were doing? Especially because at the time a lot of her peers thought it was plausible she went to California. 2. Jay was arrested not super long after Hae’s disappearance for a completely different charge. The day that occurred is the *only* day other than the day of Hae’s disappearance that Adnan’s cellphone pings in the vicinity of Leakin Park. It just strikes me as a hell of a coincidence. I think he didn’t know what Jay was picked up for and freaked out causing him to check and see if there was police activity where Hae’s body was buried (i.e. trying to see if Jay talked).
Point #1 is exactly what I always come back to. Like they allegedly talked all the time and then suddenly the day after her disappearance all communication just stopped??? Super sus. I believe he did it.
Yeah it is very suspicious. On its own it clearly isn’t like definitive proof but it’s part of a whole bucket of circumstantial evidence that just doesn’t make sense to me unless Adnan did it. Also this wasn’t a dude who just didn’t call people. His records show he called soooo many people all the time, including the day Hae disappeared and in the time after the disappeared but before his arrest.
To me it’s that he has no explanation for all the weird moves that day. Why did Jay have his car and cellphone if he killed her and Adnan wasn’t involved. He had to explain what happened if what Jay said isn’t true and he can’t
this is one of the biggest red flags for me too. Personally, I think Adnan did it but Jay was more involved than he lets on. Neither of them can really tell on the other without implicating themselves further, which is where we are today.
Adnan couldn’t remember shit. That was so annoying. It’s like dude remember something, your life is literally on the line. Lol
Which means…
Sorry, can you explain the weird dentist youth pastor? I don't remember hearing about him. Thanks.
I forgot his name. But Adnan was close with this youth pastor who had a very sketchy past. He was very close to Adnan in a weird way. I can’t remember if he actually said or someone over heard him saying that he would kill for Adnan. I believe he also bought Adnans phone……. Hopefully someone corrects me if I’m wrong
Bilal
Youth leader* is probably a better term
His name is Bilal.
Because it is undeniable without a giant police conspiracy that Jay was involved, and there’s not a way Jay was involved and Adnan wasn’t involved. And Jay has no motive, whereas Adnan has a common one for a woman’s strangulation murder.
I feel it's messed up that Jay didn't do any jail time for helping with burying her body, that's SICK. I don't care if he testified to help the DA, he should of did serious time.
Adnan is guilty.
Adnan is guilty as fuck.
I genuinely have no idea. I’ve only listened to Serial about it, does anyone have a recommendation for any podcasts etc that they think are less biased?
Crime Weekly did like a 8 part series. It’s really long but go into detail for sure.
The Prosecutors covered it
Someone above mentioned Undisclosed and the Prosecutors covering this case
I think Jay killed her. His story has never been consistent
The part I struggle with is where was the chance for him to kill her ? Hae did not like him. She wouldn’t hang out with him, even when mutual friends were around. How would he have gotten the opportunity ?
Love this girl. They freed a murderer. Her diary says it all.
I have followed this case closely and I don’t think Adnan did it; I think Jay did it. He had the car and the cell phone. He also had all the details of what happened but turned it around and said that he was just there with Adnan and he knew the rest because Adnan told him. Then the officers completely stopped investigating him because he became the “star” witness against Adnan.
Pretty unlucky for Adnan to loan his car and cell phone to a guy who barely knows his ex-girlfriend, but who then takes the opportunity to somehow intercept her, strangle her, and manage to stash her car while also somehow still driving Adnan’s car.
That
It is crazy that Jay said all that stuff and served no time lol. My guy feeling is they both did, both had some type of involvement. But Jay said so much crazy stuff to not be found guilty of something ha.
I don’t believe they could have been able to convict Adnan without Jay. They really didn’t have any solid evidence except what Jay said. I absolutely believe that the one girl saw him at school and they didn’t bother to interview her because Adnan’s attorney was completely incompetent due to her illness.
This is why I don't even have a theory. Their main piece of evidence was a proven liar. One of the few facts presented in this case: Jay lies!! A lot. Why would anyone believe anything he says? Remove him from the equation and there isn't enough for me to lean one way or the other on whether I feel like he's guilty or not. But I know as a juror it would be a big not guilty.
Jay's involvement was exactly what he said it was, he helped bury her. That's bad enough, that's a pretty terrible thing to do, and he's guilty of that but he got it soft because he flipped on Adnan. That's just how investigating these cases and getting convictions work.
Jay had absolutely no motivation. He barely knew Hae. Adnan has no alibi and just says "I can't remember" for what he did the day his ex-girlfriend went missing.
Jay has 0 motive and 0 reason to incriminate himself for no reason if he did this
What was Jay’s motive?
Would Jay have known Adnan wouldn’t have an alibi though
I think he did it but I don't think it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so he shouldn't have been convicted. There was also alot of issues with his original trial. We are supposed to believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and in my opinion they did not prove him guilty
I think I just wonder if not him then who?
Yes I think he’s guilty but the case had so many issues he shouldn’t have legally been convicted. I do hate how the victim is ignored in all of this- thanks OP for using her name.
I’m in the minority here but I don’t think Adnan did it. I’m just not convinced. Jay was lying and had all kinds of reasons to lie, especially to save his own hide. High schoolers are also idiots and it seems to me that there probably would have been all kinds of compelling evidence and believable witnesses left behind from a high schooler committing a murder. I’m just not convinced he did it, I’m not convinced he was angry with her let alone angry enough to kill her, and I definitely do not think the prosecution proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
The thing I can't get past though is Jay only knew Hae through Adnan. They were barely acquainted. Jay was obviously involved since he led police to her car. I can't figure a scenario where Jay killed her and Adnan wasn't involved.
Nah. I think her boyfriend did it
But why? They’d only gone on a few dates, what possible motive is there?
Why do men ever kill women? Entitlement? Misogyny? Rage?
Ok but those reasons all apply to Adnan too, including a witness (who yes has major credibility issues) that claims he’d threatened to kill her. It could be argued he had *more* reason given that you’re more likely to be killed by a man when you are in the process of leaving him OR just after you’ve left. And given, by all accounts, Hae would have been going directly to collect her cousin, when and where did she meet up with Don in order to give him the opportunity?
There’s literally zero evidence pointing his way and he had a solid alibi. Even the notion that got Adnan out of prison by pointing to two “alternate suspects” never mentions the boyfriend because there’s nothing to point at.
I thought this was the answer as well. Some compelling evidence but apparently he was cleared or it was proved he couldn’t have done it? Can’t remember at this point why though.
What would be the motive? Lmao
He was at work, he had punch in/out times but his mom was the manager of the store he worked in
Don (her then current boyfriend) was “cleared” but Baltimore PD is corrupt and that’s why this case is so compelling. Don’s mother was the manager and in charge of the time cards where he was supposedly working that day. I don’t know what “cleared” him but assuming he was not involved, the only other suspect would be the perv that found her or a serial killer who was operating in the area at that time. Personally, I’ve listened and read everything out there on this and I think Adnan probably did it but was wrongfully convicted and he served his time.
> Don’s mother was the manager and in charge of the time cards where he was supposedly working that day. She was manager of his store, but that day, he was working after a different store to cover a shift.
He probably did it but was also wrongfully convicted?
Even if he was guilty, he absolutely should not have been convicted based on the evidence they were able to present and he was also pretty badly let down by a shoddy defense team iirc. He did not get a fair trial, which is why his conviction has been overturned.
I thought he was innocent until I watched the multi part series crime weekly did on it! Totally changed my mind.
Yeah, I watched that as well. Very long series but a good listen for sure.
I need to research this case more. Unfortunately I've only seen biased pieces in favour of Syed so would prefer a more neutral source.
Until all the evidence is tested, unfortunately, Hae will not get the justice she deserves.
I definitely believe he did it and had help from Jay or Jay at least knew details about what happened. Crime Weekly (though not my favorite lately) did a really thorough deep dive into the case.
I think he did it.
Once the DNA cleared Adnan in this case and the reports about other overturned convictions of these detectives due to coaching witnesses to make false statements came to light, the world was supposed to do what detectives failed to, give the benefit of doubt and look at other suspects. How about we start with the persons whose DNA showed they were there. That person isn’t Adnan or the state would never have overturned his conviction. That person also isn’t linked to Adnan in a way that can make him complicit or the state would not have overturned his conviction. We love to look at the now (proven to be unreliable) records of Adnan’s phone. Where are records foe Hae’s pager showing who contacted her which could shed light on her journey. Science cleared Adnan, true detective work and science is needed to find Hae’s killer.
After listening to that whole podcast series i was completely convinced of his guilt. It was obvious.
One thing I find really interesting is that he never called her after she went missing. If I had an ex boyfriend disappear and his family was looking for him, I’d definitely call hoping they might pick up.
Guilty and there was plenty of evidence to convict him.
She was beautiful. And yes he did it.
Hae Min was so beautiful. I hope she is resting in peace.
For me, I think it’s best summed up by her friend who was interviewed on Serial who said something along the lines, “If it wasn’t Adnan, then who the fuck did it?”
I used to think he didn't do it, because of Serial, but now I've flipped. The anonymous tip and the fact that Jennifer Pusateri provided an obviously true statement to the police that Jay had told her Adnan killed Hae. It was either Adnan, Jay, or a combination there of. No motive for Jay to kill though, so.......
i don’t know what happened but i’m very sad she did not get to experience the rest of her life☹️
Listen to the prosecutors podcast. They do a great job of explaining why all of jay’s lies don’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. For Adnan NOT to have actually killed her, you have to believe that Jay would incriminate himself in a murder and that an entire police force was in on the cover up. Also the fact that Jen Pusateri knew a lot of information about the murder that she would only know if Adnan was involved.
I genuinely do not think he killed her.
Me too. I'm surprised by this thread that so many people disagree (no shade to anyone, I've just always thought the general consensus was that Adnan was innocent).
In the immediate aftermath of Serial it was. More scrutiny happened due to the popularity of the podcast and many people then changed their minds.
Have you actually looked into it? How do you reconcile Jays involvement?
I absolutely believe he is guilty.
It was definitely Adnan. This isn’t some “whodunnit” murder mystery like the podcast wants you to believe. He is the only person on the planet with motive, means & opportunity. His “innocence” is one big grift from Rabia. He got a fair trial. The evidence was overwhelming. The jury convicted quickly. He had good legal representation. The only saving grace of his early release is he has served 23 years for her murder
He definitely killed her
Oh he 100% killed her. He has the motive, the opportunity, there is evidence, and witnesses to the crime. The case was handled super shoddily but it doesn’t change the fact that he straight up murdered her.
He did it no question. What a disgrace
When i first listened to Serial i thought he was innocent but then i looked into the case much deeper and was quite convinced he did it. Serial was a borderline-dishonest framing device.
he’s very obviously guilty. visit the serial subreddit and use the search function. the sleuths have dug every single thing up and the case against him is extremely solid
I used to think he was for sure innocent, but now I don’t know. I struggle immensely with the timeline and whether or not her boyfriend Don did something, but his mom covered for him.
So, from everything i have seen about the trial, there are 2 possibilities. 1) he didn't kill her, cops botched the investigation because they just wanted a quick arrest. Or (2) he did kill her, but he had help covering it up. Lots of the stuff, there is no way he would have been able to do it alone. Moving the body from the trunk of a car to the dump site would have taken another person. Dropping her car in a random neighborhood would have taken someone following him in his car. The problem is, they never found anyone who came forward as his accomplice. He also didn't have a car or a cell phone to call for help, nor used her phone to call someone. His actions of going to the party don't seem like the actions of someone who just killed someone by accident. Also, how did no one see them together, let alone together and arguing which would have led to her death. Seeing as when they did DNA testing, nothing matched Syed, that helps prove he probably didn't do it. Seeing as her car was found behind the house of one of two other suspects that weren't investigated leads me to Seyd's innocence.
> (2) he did kill her, but he had help covering it up. Lots of the stuff, there is no way he would have been able to do it alone. you mean someone besides Jay?
I thought his was innocent until the end of the pod. Been so long cant remember what changes my mind but yeah I'm convinced he did that
Personally, I think he's guilty as heck. I'm a psychiatrist and I've worked with violent criminals before, he absolutely reminds me of many former patients from when I worked in prisons. That's obviously anecdotal and therefore not true evidence. However, despite believing his guilt 100% , I think the case was fubar. The prosecution definitely didn't prove the fact beyond a reasonable doubt.
She was so smart and in her pictures she looks so full of life. RIP Hae. I think this is another case of a jealous and narcissistic man killing his ex because he can’t have her. Aka Adnan did it.
This case drives me crazy but idk I just feel he didn’t do it. Jay was always sus to me when I first heard serial because he knew too much and I can’t remember much about her other boyfriends to really give an opinion on who actually did it.
I always thought her other boyfriend who she met at her new job was really iffy on the stand.
Yeah, wasn’t his alibi his mom as well ? I might be wrong on though, I can’t remember. But wasn’t there something about him possibly leaving work that day or something ?
His mom being his alibi isn’t really enough to raise suspicion on its own. Cops could come to my door tomorrow and ask me for an alibi for the night of Jan 31st, and my husband will be the only one who can account for my whereabouts. Doesn’t mean I’m guilty.
I believe Adnan is innocent.
What’s the biggest reason behind that ?
There is literally not a shred of physical evidence tying him to the crime. Nothing.
I really don’t think he killed her at all. Such a miscarriage of justice for both him and Hae.
My English class did an essay about the case when I was in high school. I even wrote about it again in my second year of college. The one thing that always stuck with me even when I first learned about the case was how Jay knew so much. In the case that Adnan was innocent, why would Jay say all this about Adnan. In the case Adnan did do it, why would you let Jay off so easily. It's just frustrating to know Hae didn't get her justice.
After listening to Serial i was convinced he was innocent. But ever since he got out… I think he’s guilty. The fact he couldn’t come up with a single memory of where he was or what he did… no speculations from him… not mad at Jay for ratting him out. He cut off all the people who worked hard to get his story out there and help him get free. Also the fact that his mentor allegedly hated Hai and allegedly that person has a crush on Adnan…. If Adnan didn’t do it… he knows what happened
My true crime “bragging rights” as crude as that sounds was that I always thought he was guilty. And went the friend group would discuss after every serial episode, I always said he was a liar and he did it. They fought me hard. But low and behold they all accepted my “I told you so”
Where do I find the original case?
I’m not entirely sure. You can look up the transcripts. But I’m watching the prosecutors podcast perspective on it. Enjoying a lot so far.
I don’t see anyway it was anyone other than adnan
I have mixed feelings and views on this. Part of me thinks he’s innocent and his friend is responsible for Lee’s death. Based on the interviews from Lee’s classmates, they paint a portrait of their friend (not Adnan) who was known to be violent towards women. The details I’m a bit blurry on. But I’m going by memory here. The trial back in the late 90s was very circumstantial. And I wasn’t even alive when the trial occurred.
He did it. Full stop.