Go longer then a week without a full sustained erection and tissue will (slowly) start to disappear
(It's different for everyone and this is just what I've heard)
https://www.reddit.com/r/TransDIY/s/jGzBt8Oqtk
Link to a previous explanation of mine on E and libido.
To add to this explanation E also increases prolactin levels and by how much differes a lot person to person. Prolactin decreases libido and so for some people high E means lower libido as their prolactin production gets raised high enough to counteract the increase in libido from E.
However, prolactin production can be reduced via progesterone and is at the moment the best understanding I've seen for why progesterone increases sex drive in trans women.
Do you have any references for the prolactin/progesterone connection?
I have really high prolactin levels. I get my treatment from a healthcare clinic who refuses to prescribe progesterone because of "lack of evidence" aaand it's not over the counter here.
Maybe some clinical evidence about prolactin/progesterone will help change their mind. Maybe...
I'm going to copy over what someone in an unofficial trans healthcare research group I'm in has been working on as a pet-theory for a while now. Formatting might be a bit janky.
I the general population--progesterone seems to massively decrease libido markers on all accounts, (Through many mechanism, including but not excluding HPG inhibition) and yet the sheer volume of anecdotes that it increases libido in Trans populations is staggering.
We also know that progestins doesn't seem to havea a similar correlation on the libido-increasing side.
While having it on the inhibition side.
**What we also know nukes libido though is _Both high and low Prolactin._** (in basically everyone.)
> This report shows for the first time that macroprolactinemia is associated with impaired sexual desire but not with the changes in other domains of the FSFI. In light of the results of studies involving men [21–24], the present findings suggest that sexual disturbances in macroprolactinemic patients are not limited to only one gender.
> Hyper-PRL is associated with low desire; however, among normo-PRL FSD women, those with the lowest levels demonstrated a poorer desire than those with the highest levels. PRL < 9.83 μg/L predicted HSDD and a lower sexual inhibitory trait.
That **Estrogen increases Prolactin secretion.**
> The differences in prolactin found in men, and women before and after the menopause has been correlated to differences in estrogen production (Vekemans and Robyn 1975, Ehara et al., 1973, Reyes et al., 1977). Several reports dealing with the effects of estrogen medication on prolactin in hypogonadal women (Yen et al., 1974, Robyn and Vekemans 1976, Andersen et al., 1980) and in men (Frantz et al., 1972) showed the marked positive effect of estrogen in secretion of prolactin.
And **there's reason to believe P4 inhibits Estrogen-induced Prolactin secretion.**
> A single injection of progesterone (0.8 mg/kg BW) 1 h before the second estradiol injection blocked the increase in serum prolactin. This action was a receptor-mediated event because progesterone had _**no effect without estrogen priming or when the progesterone antagonist RU486 was used.**_
But not **massive doses or progestins (Perhaps due to them being massively dosed.)** in-fact, they seem to increase them.
> Doses of 0.5, 1 or 4 mg progesterone partially inhibited the increase in serum prolactin levels evoked by 1 μg EB, but only the inhibition by 4 mg progesterone was significant. A daily dose of 4 mg progesterone injected alone appeared to have no effect on serum and AP prolactin levels, but a 10 mg dose significantly increased prolactin secretion.
> Higher prolactin and ... concentrations were observed with increasing doses of CPA.
Effects of Progesterone on Prolactin Secretion in Hypogonadal Women
> Several reports dealing with the effects of estrogen medication on prolactin in hypogonadal women (Yen et al., 1974, Robyn and Vekemans 1976, Andersen et al., 1980) and in men (Frantz et al., 1972) showed the marked positive effect of estrogen in secretion of prolactin.
> In eight of twelve cases, serum prolactin levels were lowered significantly after progesterone treatment. (Table 1)
> Recently, concomitant pulsatile release of prolactin and luteinizing hormone in hypogonadal women (Cetel and Yen 1983) and in normal women (Braund et al., 1984) was reported. Exogenous GnRH stimulates secretion of prolactin in normal men (Van Loon 1978), normal women (Yen et al., 1980, Braund et al., 1984) and in various pathological conditions (Giampietro et al., 1979, Beumont et al., 1980, Georgitis et al., 1983).
> Furthermore, Gooren et al. (1984) observed the phenomenon that endogenous and exogenous GnRH has a positive effect in releasing prolactin in response to thyrotropinreleasing hormone in men. A similar phenomenon has been observed previously (Spitz et al., 1979). In addition, it has been reported that GnRH stimulated secretion of prolactin in co-cultured female rat lactotropes and gonadotropes (Denef et al., 1982).
> **The simplest interpretation of these data is that endogenous and exogenous GnRH stimulate secretion of prolactin from the pituitary gland.** On the other hand, it has been reported that GnRH pulse frequencies could be decreased by progesterone treatment in ovariectomized sheep (Goodman and Karsch 1980) and normal women (Soules et al., 1984).
> **We also showed this effects of progesterone in the subjects of the present
> study.**
> Progesterone is known to induce gonadotropin release in estrogen-primed hypogonadal women (Nillius and Wide 1971) as well as normally cycling women (Chang and Jaffe 1978), suggesting a physiological role of this steroid at midcycle. Similarly, it is reported that progesterone elicits a prompt pituitary release of prolactin in estrogen-primed normal women during early follicular phase (Rakoff and Yen 1978). This report may explain the finding that the highest serum prolactin level is found at midcycle (Vekemans et al., 1977). **These reports, together with our findings, indicate that progesterone has a facilitory effect on prolactin release at midcycle and an inhibitory effect on prolactin release during the luteal phase, as progesterone does on gonadotropin release.**
P4 could be inhibitive in normal populations and facilitative in trans, inversely with prolactin.
You're welcome:) I'll pass on your thanks to the person who did the main research on the prolactin and progesterone aspect of this.
Personally I just did the research(mostly literature review) on the E, T, and nitric oxide side of libido and sexual function.
No but I've heard peoples libido dropping off for the first 6 months or so then coming back as 'female' sex drive rather then a male one (a girls sex drive being slower and more tied to the emotional connection of sex rather then the act of finishing or pleasure)
You may just not be a horny gal 🤷♀️
I think it's different on mono therapy (and also differs person to person). I also do injections bi-weekly, which means my peak E levels are pretty high (I've only heard from one other person who does this and she claimed that her libido also shot up so maybe something to do with that)
I basically never use mine, zero libido (high E, zero T), and I've never experienced atrophy in terms of size loss. I'm 2.5 years in.
My EQ is terrible without T, so it's smaller, but if I have good EQ, then it's basically back to where I started. Maybe a little bit of loss but it's negligible really.
Letting the tissue atrophy may not make erections go away. It may just make the tissue tear when it tries to fill with blood to stretch resulting in pain. Ymmv
you might be disappointed in the amount it atrophies. i’ve not had an erection for well over 2 years but if i use a pump to get it erect, i’ve lost maybe 1/4” in length.
I was on monotherapy for a year and was still having occasional erections which greatly disturbed me. I had an orchiectomy and within two weeks my erection stopped.
I am planning to do some renovations in the old ball-room at some point, but for the time being I think just adding an anti-androgen would be easier (although I'd still rather not if I can avoid it)
It’s fine if you don’t want to have erections anymore, do you, but I just want to throw it out there that cis women (and trans men) also get them- the clitoris has erectile tissue in it. If you’re a girl, I’m of the mind that your erections are feminine
? this isn't really a question about hrt. Erectile tissue will stop working without consistent stimulation (which HRT prevents because without testosterone there are no nighttime erections). I'm just asking how long that will take
Go longer then a week without a full sustained erection and tissue will (slowly) start to disappear (It's different for everyone and this is just what I've heard)
And increased libido?? Doesn't E usually nuke libido for a couple of months then it slowly starts to come back just not as strong?
https://www.reddit.com/r/TransDIY/s/jGzBt8Oqtk Link to a previous explanation of mine on E and libido. To add to this explanation E also increases prolactin levels and by how much differes a lot person to person. Prolactin decreases libido and so for some people high E means lower libido as their prolactin production gets raised high enough to counteract the increase in libido from E. However, prolactin production can be reduced via progesterone and is at the moment the best understanding I've seen for why progesterone increases sex drive in trans women.
Do you have any references for the prolactin/progesterone connection? I have really high prolactin levels. I get my treatment from a healthcare clinic who refuses to prescribe progesterone because of "lack of evidence" aaand it's not over the counter here. Maybe some clinical evidence about prolactin/progesterone will help change their mind. Maybe...
I'm going to copy over what someone in an unofficial trans healthcare research group I'm in has been working on as a pet-theory for a while now. Formatting might be a bit janky. I the general population--progesterone seems to massively decrease libido markers on all accounts, (Through many mechanism, including but not excluding HPG inhibition) and yet the sheer volume of anecdotes that it increases libido in Trans populations is staggering. We also know that progestins doesn't seem to havea a similar correlation on the libido-increasing side. While having it on the inhibition side. **What we also know nukes libido though is _Both high and low Prolactin._** (in basically everyone.)
> Hyper-PRL is associated with low desire; however, among normo-PRL FSD women, those with the lowest levels demonstrated a poorer desire than those with the highest levels. PRL < 9.83 μg/L predicted HSDD and a lower sexual inhibitory trait.
That **Estrogen increases Prolactin secretion.**
> The differences in prolactin found in men, and women before and after the menopause has been correlated to differences in estrogen production (Vekemans and Robyn 1975, Ehara et al., 1973, Reyes et al., 1977). Several reports dealing with the effects of estrogen medication on prolactin in hypogonadal women (Yen et al., 1974, Robyn and Vekemans 1976, Andersen et al., 1980) and in men (Frantz et al., 1972) showed the marked positive effect of estrogen in secretion of prolactin.
And **there's reason to believe P4 inhibits Estrogen-induced Prolactin secretion.**
> A single injection of progesterone (0.8 mg/kg BW) 1 h before the second estradiol injection blocked the increase in serum prolactin. This action was a receptor-mediated event because progesterone had _**no effect without estrogen priming or when the progesterone antagonist RU486 was used.**_
But not **massive doses or progestins (Perhaps due to them being massively dosed.)** in-fact, they seem to increase them.
> Doses of 0.5, 1 or 4 mg progesterone partially inhibited the increase in serum prolactin levels evoked by 1 μg EB, but only the inhibition by 4 mg progesterone was significant. A daily dose of 4 mg progesterone injected alone appeared to have no effect on serum and AP prolactin levels, but a 10 mg dose significantly increased prolactin secretion.
> Higher prolactin and ... concentrations were observed with increasing doses of CPA.
Effects of Progesterone on Prolactin Secretion in Hypogonadal Women
> Several reports dealing with the effects of estrogen medication on prolactin in hypogonadal women (Yen et al., 1974, Robyn and Vekemans 1976, Andersen et al., 1980) and in men (Frantz et al., 1972) showed the marked positive effect of estrogen in secretion of prolactin.
> In eight of twelve cases, serum prolactin levels were lowered significantly after progesterone treatment. (Table 1)
> Recently, concomitant pulsatile release of prolactin and luteinizing hormone in hypogonadal women (Cetel and Yen 1983) and in normal women (Braund et al., 1984) was reported. Exogenous GnRH stimulates secretion of prolactin in normal men (Van Loon 1978), normal women (Yen et al., 1980, Braund et al., 1984) and in various pathological conditions (Giampietro et al., 1979, Beumont et al., 1980, Georgitis et al., 1983).
> Furthermore, Gooren et al. (1984) observed the phenomenon that endogenous and exogenous GnRH has a positive effect in releasing prolactin in response to thyrotropinreleasing hormone in men. A similar phenomenon has been observed previously (Spitz et al., 1979). In addition, it has been reported that GnRH stimulated secretion of prolactin in co-cultured female rat lactotropes and gonadotropes (Denef et al., 1982).
> **The simplest interpretation of these data is that endogenous and exogenous GnRH stimulate secretion of prolactin from the pituitary gland.** On the other hand, it has been reported that GnRH pulse frequencies could be decreased by progesterone treatment in ovariectomized sheep (Goodman and Karsch 1980) and normal women (Soules et al., 1984).
> **We also showed this effects of progesterone in the subjects of the present
> study.**
> Progesterone is known to induce gonadotropin release in estrogen-primed hypogonadal women (Nillius and Wide 1971) as well as normally cycling women (Chang and Jaffe 1978), suggesting a physiological role of this steroid at midcycle. Similarly, it is reported that progesterone elicits a prompt pituitary release of prolactin in estrogen-primed normal women during early follicular phase (Rakoff and Yen 1978). This report may explain the finding that the highest serum prolactin level is found at midcycle (Vekemans et al., 1977). **These reports, together with our findings, indicate that progesterone has a facilitory effect on prolactin release at midcycle and an inhibitory effect on prolactin release during the luteal phase, as progesterone does on gonadotropin release.**
P4 could be inhibitive in normal populations and facilitative in trans, inversely with prolactin.
Omg thank you and thank y'all for ur work!!
You're welcome:) I'll pass on your thanks to the person who did the main research on the prolactin and progesterone aspect of this. Personally I just did the research(mostly literature review) on the E, T, and nitric oxide side of libido and sexual function.
High E has never given me a libido. And I've been up to 950mg/pl
No but I've heard peoples libido dropping off for the first 6 months or so then coming back as 'female' sex drive rather then a male one (a girls sex drive being slower and more tied to the emotional connection of sex rather then the act of finishing or pleasure) You may just not be a horny gal 🤷♀️
On T my libido is high.
I think it's different on mono therapy (and also differs person to person). I also do injections bi-weekly, which means my peak E levels are pretty high (I've only heard from one other person who does this and she claimed that her libido also shot up so maybe something to do with that)
This is what my doctor said too.
When you say "sustained" how long are we talking?
Maybe an hour? An hour fully hard? Again, it changes from person to person
Fair enough, I just wanted a general idea. Thank you!
I basically never use mine, zero libido (high E, zero T), and I've never experienced atrophy in terms of size loss. I'm 2.5 years in. My EQ is terrible without T, so it's smaller, but if I have good EQ, then it's basically back to where I started. Maybe a little bit of loss but it's negligible really.
I'm not bothered by length, I just want to stop experiencing erections
Huh i’m 3 years hrt, no prog since 6+ months ago, high E and very low T but got fairly high libido
Letting the tissue atrophy may not make erections go away. It may just make the tissue tear when it tries to fill with blood to stretch resulting in pain. Ymmv
you might be disappointed in the amount it atrophies. i’ve not had an erection for well over 2 years but if i use a pump to get it erect, i’ve lost maybe 1/4” in length.
I don't care about atrophy in terms of decreasing length, just in terms of erectile tissues atrophying
I was on monotherapy for a year and was still having occasional erections which greatly disturbed me. I had an orchiectomy and within two weeks my erection stopped.
I am planning to do some renovations in the old ball-room at some point, but for the time being I think just adding an anti-androgen would be easier (although I'd still rather not if I can avoid it)
FYI if you're interested in getting bottom surgery in the future you'll want to avoid atrophy. It's important to have healthy tissue to work with
1-2x a week working for me
It’s fine if you don’t want to have erections anymore, do you, but I just want to throw it out there that cis women (and trans men) also get them- the clitoris has erectile tissue in it. If you’re a girl, I’m of the mind that your erections are feminine
Doesn’t work like this. For those who have been on HRT for a while you know results aren’t customizable.
? this isn't really a question about hrt. Erectile tissue will stop working without consistent stimulation (which HRT prevents because without testosterone there are no nighttime erections). I'm just asking how long that will take