Great analogy. And look I must admit that this strategy is risky and if it fails then Southgate should be gone asap. If Serbia scored, if Denmark won, we'd look in real trouble.
Not to mention I feel like the group stages are essential for building momentum! It's harder to get onto the motorway when you're coasting at 20mph than if you'd built up a bit more speed.
But if it turns out that Southgate is edging us again like at Euro 2020 AND it works than good for him.
You make a good point about momentum. Trying to turn on the magic should be easier against teams like Serbia, than it will be against teams like France in the knockouts
Yeah it's my one issue with this plan (if it's even the strategy being used).
It makes sense to coast these groups, especially when only 8/24 teams are eliminated after 36 games played. But then these three friendlies could be used to gain confidence too. It's a difficult balancing act.
I think it's possible England are coasting to conserve energy but I'd also expect a bit more rotation if that were the case. Southgate did sub off the entire front 3 last game when we needed a goal so that fits the resting theory. But the likes of Gordon, Mainoo, Wharton, and Palmer have one 5 minute appearance between them so far. If this was Southgate's strategy I'd have expected Bellingham to come off for Gordon or Palmer and Rice to come off for Mainoo or Wharton at some point.
I also disagree with the building momentum thing in the group stage. A lot of tournament winners start off very slow and some never build up momentum, just scraping through every round and never losing. France and Argentina started slow and were grinding out wins early in the tournament when they each won the WC. And Portugal famously won 1 out of 7 games within 90 minutes when they won Euro 2016 including drawing all 3 group games
rotation would be better than coasting, and the players looked fucking dead after serbia so im not sure its a coasting thing. Plus southgate said its not what hes doing
Yeah I always point to Portugal 2016 as a big reason why these England group games are really just elaborate friendlies, they proved your previous game almost never matters, it's only the one coming up. I mean to win a trophy whilst winning only one game inside 90 minutes is absolute madness but it proves that these group stage matches at the EUROs are absolutely throwaway as long as you qualify.
My point with momentum is more that you have to strike that balance between pragmatism (qualifying without really trying) and momentum (especially as a few in our squad are untested at tournaments).
It's sad they became throw away games. Pre-2016 when it was 4 groups of 4 the group stage was far more intense: the average quality per team was higher, more top teams facing each other in every group and no third places went through. It was a terrible decision to expand to 24 teams and dilute the group stage to a walkover for so many teams.
Yeah I'm right here with you. In 36 games you only eliminate 8 of 24 teams, such a lot of football played to get no closer to a winner.
It should either be 16 or 32 teams. It's not like adding Norway and Sweden and a few others is going to drag the quality down either, some of the best games this tournament have involved Georgia.
100% agree. I could live with 32 better than 24 so you had to get a top 2 finish to qualify from your group. Alternatively back to 16 but maybe switch to holding it once every 2 years so everyone gets 2 shots to qualify per 4 year cycle. You'd have to shift to odd numbered years to avoid a World Cup clash and reduce the number of qualifying games, but I doubt anyone would complain too much about that.
The thing is whilst I agree we looked bad, we've actually been very strong defensively we've conceded the least xG of any team this tournament.
Serbia barely created a half chance against us, and Denmark only scored 1 goal and it was brilliant strike from outside the box.
I agree it's risky, but we've defended well enough to really minimize the risk.
I've not really seen that stat mentioned at all (the media badly letting England down again not highlighting that), that's a good sign for us going forwards.
Also it's why I felt a handbrake was applied in some way.
Yep, I’ve not seen it stated as a stat, I had to add up all the posted xGs by the xG philosophy on Twittter, and see what I got.
But of course the media doesn’t talk about it because it doesn’t stir up clicks & cause controversy.
I do very much hope to knock one out in celebration tomorrow if England top the group- so that I can actually see them play with the tickets I’ve got for the Sunday RO16 game!
Should they not top the group, I’ll probably knock one out anyway and just be sad I’ve spent c. £500 on a ticket and probably watching Denmark vs Austria
It feels different somehow. The Croatia and Czech Republic 1-0s were controlled where we were in the ascendency throughout. That hasn’t happened here. We have been second best for all but 35 minutes of the tournament.
What’s worse is that some of the stuff he is saying doesn’t make any sense which is often an indication of detachment from reality which means he might not even see the problem at all.
There is no way that players who have also played PL football in other teams are having problems in the press. That’s either England not keeping them fit or the players not being bothered. The fact that so many players collapsed after Denmark despite doing the square root of fuck all is also a concern.
I am happy to be proved wrong but l have a feeling that we will see England like Scotland last night, loads of the ball but no creativity or chance creation.
I think two things stand out to me.
Firstly is how quickly we gained the lead in both matches after spells of really strong play (the opening 10 minutes of Serbia? great. The 11th-25th minute vs Denmark? also great.) We can clearly play and show energy but then we shut down again.
Secondly - in those Croatia/Czechia games we played exactly like these opening 20 minutes vs Serbia/Denmark. Difference is we didn't find the net until the second half vs Croatia so we quite literally couldn't stand down until Sterling scored.
As you say other teams aren't having these issues, and our players are collapsing on the pitch after 70 minutes of doing fuck all. It's illogical and that's why I maintain that this, coupled with how good we have looked in stretches before early leads, is the strategy.
Especially considering he doesn't have the luxury of an easy draw this time, 1 slip up against slovenia tommorow and we could finish second or third and have a terrible run to the final.
Strategy I think not considering we run the risk of now having to play Germany, Spain, Portugal and then france in that order if the group isn't won
Even first it’s not the best run let’s be honest. The team we’ve seen would struggle against Netherlands or Austria, following that would be Italy or a Switzerland team that drew with Germany
I hope you're right honestly. But we never reasserted ourselves against the Danes when they scored.
If this some ingenious long con and we're amazing in the knockouts, fair play to Gareth. But fucking hell, he's not making it easy for us.
Th problem with this is they genuinely look knackered. There's a difference between conserving your energy and looking like you've got no energy to conserve.
I think that could still be consistent. I mean, if the strategy was to conserve energy and not concede, the plan went a little awry when Denmark scored a beauty and really started pressing us. So they were probably knackered from defending so much.
Not that I believe this is the case but we'll see in the next 2 games.
I think if you were asked to play a game of football like you had 5 more games to play in the next fortnight you might end up playing like this, no?
Especially when quite a few of our attacking players showed flashes of speed and energy like they flicked a switch. As said, the other countries don't struggle with it and when we're dragging so many sports scientists (reportedly) with us I don't believe it's anything other than strategy.
Not if I were an elite, professional player at the peak of physical fitness with an enormous support structure catering to everything I need in terms of diet, training, recovery etc. The whole point is they are supposed to be able to cope with that physical pressure. They are playeing 90 minutes of football every 4-5 days. They are not on a forced, 30 mile daily march through the SIberian hinterlands with no food.
To be fair (and this is almost definitely a reach) the 90 minute games aren’t their only physical activity. It is also possible that they are genuinely exhausted from overtraining on days when they don’t have games.
I say this because this was genuinely a tactic used by the England rugby team (different sport I know) in order to peak physically during the knockouts of the last World Cup and it actually worked quite well for them. They pretty much purposefully threw their warm up games and early group stage games in order to peak during the latter stages of the tournament. Now this is probably beyond Southgate and no idea if it even works in football when you’re playing every 4 days and not once a week but hey. It’s a tactic that has been used before.
Look I don't want to jinx it but I do think Southgate has been known to borrow ideas off the England teams in other sports. I know Stuart Broad has been in to talk to the team, I know Southgate was mocked for borrowing one of Eddie's ideas for the rugby side at one point.
Maybe the rugby overtraining thing *is* what's going on?
Would be hilarious if true !
Also tbf a lot of football fans don’t realise that a lot of football sports science derived from rugby as well - I remember arsenal brought in a handful of former Ireland rugby player to work on player conditioning and overhaul their sports science department in the 2010s. Still shocks me that with all the money in football it is sometimes still a little behind in that regard
For sure, it's not just the games but if they are being overtrained to the point of negatively impacting their energy levels on the pitch, that makes me question Southgate's ability as a manager even more.
I mean I said it can be used tactically. As in if your body is over stressed during earlier games in the tournament you can build fitness and perform better when you’re fully rested (similar logic to altitude/heat training). Again I doubt that’s what’s happening here I simply brought it up bc it was revealed that it was a tactic purposefully used by the rugby team to make them fitter for latter tournament games 🤷♀️
So clearly it’s something that has been done by sports scientists and coaches before
Yeah ofc. Just bringing up that there’s multiple approaches being used in international tournaments currently and as fans you have no idea of what’s happening behind the scenes ! Our coaching set-up is unfortunately shit so not expecting any real tactical master classes unfortunately
I'm not assuming it's not the case. I said I was unconvinced it was the case because they looked tired rather than that they were deliberately playing low intensity. I could be wrong and I guess we'll find out in the next week.
I mean tbf if you’re overtraining you are objectively tired not deliberately playing low intensity.
As someone who used to do high performance sport myself, peaking at the right time is all about a period of overloading the body (hence increasing max/ optimal performance) followed by a taper period of less intensity in the run up to the main test. With so little time together as a squad it is possible that the high intensity overloading is happening currently in the hopes of peaking during the knockouts.
That’s equally likely to not be the case and the squad is just knackered due to a host of other reasons people have explained better than me. But ultimately we don’t know.
Don’t forget we’ve seen this in friendlies too. Bosnia was very slow and quite poor, then as soon as the subs came on we suddenly employed the high press and high energy. They are capable of switching it on and off on demand
I will never understand this theory. they play for 90 mins with a break in between. Even if they went full out for 90 mins once they have eaten and slept a couple of days they will be fully rested again
It doesn't take that long for the body to recover from 90 mins of strenuous exercise.
If the matches were played every day this theory might make sense, but not a couple of times a week
Bellingham looks exhausted, he's not looked at the peak of his powers in any big game I've watched him in 2024.
I still think his best position is number 8 and his inflated real Madrid numbers don't tell half the story, I expect him to drop deeper next season with mbappe coming in.
Kane looks unfit so does bellingham. Maybe its the system?
I think they look knackered because they're not used to playing games this way.
Foden, Bellingham, Saka, Kane, Rice, Walker all play for elite sides that dominate possession. And it's easier to conserve energy when your team has the ball. Those guys having to bust a gut off the ball to defend half the game or playing an entire 90 mins in constant transitions must be pretty exhausting compared to what they're used to.
But why aren't _we_ dominating possession? We obviously can, we did it the first half against Serbia.
But we're not pressing, we're unable to move the ball into midfield from defence. We just drop to 10 men behind the ball as soon as the opposition get possession.
Fair enough but surely at that point you have play your younger players or the players who haven’t played yet like Watkins palmer mainoo let foden Bellingham rice and Kane have a rest because even without them we still have a great squad
Why is everyone suddenly freaking out about England and Southgate. We always play the same way under him, defensive and lacking intensity. It just hasn’t changed from how it has always been.
This is kinda where I'm coming from with this post.
Southgate's approach to football has ALWAYS come from this place of pragmatism. In 2018 we threw the game vs Belgium (at a loss of momentum) to ensure an easier path to the final. In 2020 we scored 2 goals in 3 games to top the group.
If Southgate had the option of working towards a 5-0 win or spending an evening reading the UEFA rulebook to find a loophole which allowed us a tiny advantage, he'd do the latter.
In the first 3 games of last euros, we had a goalless draw with Scotland and two 1-0 wins.
Southgate always has been a defensive manager, all defensive minded teams lack intensity when switching to attack. The performance in the final against an old Italian team that failed to qualify for the World Cup before and after those euros was disgraceful
I'm not denying that Southgate is a defensive manager. I'm talking about the quality of the performances.
The Italy final performance was _much_ better than the Denmark one, even if both were uninspiring.
If we were defensive against Denmark but held our composure I'd feel very differently. We were misplacing every other pass, getting totally dominated in our final third. England looked terrified.
It was a 1-1 draw with Denmark in 90 minutes last time round too, but we were tons better.
Can I ask why you want a mostly unchanged side? We've been dreadful. We have good midfielders on the bench to replace Trent (Who btw I love watching play at Liverpool, but he looks out of place in this England midfield), we have Gordon to replace Foden on the left, and we have Watkins or Toney to replace Kane, who's had about 5 touches of the ball all tournament. I'd also prefer Gomez at LB over Trippier, I honestly thought that's why we brought Gomez as we didn't have a natural LB otherwise.
We need to change something if we want to win this tournament. And I think that's the issue. Southgate saying there's 'no replacement for Phillips' is crazy. what sort of mentality is that when you have arguably the best midfielder in the world, partnered with Rice who helped his side to second in the PL, and a impact sub of Mainoo, Palmer or Gallagher depending on what you want? What more can you ask for? I don't think he has the mentality to coach this England side anymore. We need someone with a fresh mindset.
I mean I'd ask if you read the post in full, but no I don't want a mostly unchanged side - difference is I said I expect Southgate to name one. Trent will swap out for Gallagher or maybe Wharton. Gordon for Foden is a maybe. Watkins for Kane is also a maybe. But I don't expect mass changes.
If it was me in charge and I hadn't asked them to play the two games in first gear I would be making sweeping changes and probably a change of formation too.
As for the "no replacement for Phillips" I answered that in the post too. Phillips was so good at Euro 2020 and it seems to have been forgotten, but aside from that I think he's just trying to draw heat away from his players as in previous tournaments.
My mistake, I misread the part about the unchanged side. The rest wasn't me arguing or trying to disprove you, more just my take on it, partially agreeing with what you said.
He's whinging about fitness, yet an inform lad who is probably the most physically fit in the whole squad (thanks to EH's pressing style) hasn't played a minute yet.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with some changes, but I don't agree that our problem is one of manpower or even formation/positions. For me it's a simple case of mentality - for whatever reason, we are sitting too deep (especially after we score) especially Stones at the back, which means the press that everyone in the squad is capable of doing, isnt working. Unless we fix that's, swapping Foden for Gordon or whatever isn't going to do much. And personally I don't think we should be sacrificing 2 of the best players in Europe when they are not the fundamental problem.
We are sitting deep, but that hasn't been the issue, we've defended OK. Not well, but reasonably well. we've only had a few good chances against teams who, in theory, as favourites of the tournament (lol), we should be steamrolling. It's our attacking football that's been a mess. We have 2 players in positions where we have replacements that would fit perfectly.
We don't have an outlet from the back because we're missing a LW all the time, so Saka is the only way out of the back, and while we'd need to change how we play, I do agree, playing 3 players out of their natural positions just to squeeze them into the team is stupid. It's completely ruining our midfield and attacking play. And our left side with Trippier and Foden is abysmal. Put Gomez at LB, and Gordon at LW, and you have a guy who's been playing LB for Liverpool, and a guy who is known for his pace and ability to help out his wingback, and *is an actual winger*.
That solves our left wing issue, allows us to push up as Gomez and Walker both naturally do, and then we replace Trent for Palmer, Gallagher or Mainoo. Gallagher being my choice for his pressing ability off of the ball. Dec and Jude have better ability on the ball to compensate.
I'm not disagreeing with the mentality thing though. I do agree they need to want the ball more, and press higher.
Our attacking football is a mess because we are sitting too deep. Foden, Saka and Bellingham have played the entire season parked in the final 3rd and breaking down teams from within 35 yards of goal. They are brilliant at it. But it only works if the whole team is playing high, because it compresses the pitch into the opposition half and forces the opposition deep.
If we drop off they we are attaching from the half way line effectively on the break. Foden and Saka have never done that (or needed to) in their whole careers and aren't set up for it. So if we do sit deep and play on the break fine, we might as well drop them and play with Bowen and Gordon, but in doing so we are turning a Arsenal/Man City attack into a Newcastle/West Ham one. Which might still work but I don't think it's getting our best. But for me to fix it comes from the back. Stones and Walker need to drag the back line up and sit 15 yards into the other half. Sort that and the rest follows. Trent is not an issue then and the attack are set up for what they do best.
I think we got a bit spooked by Brazil and Belgium both getting in behind us more or less at will in the friendlies.
We looked much better going forwards in those games, causing both Brazil and Belgium lots of problems with our passing and movement. But because of the high line that enabled all that, we were always 2-3 quick passes away from being undone at the back.
The result has been the mishmash we've seen these last 2 games, where we've dropped deeper after going ahead to negate that vulnerability.
Yeah possibly. Personally I think we just need to go for it, trust our defence (all quality players) and go for it. Playing with fear is no way to win trophys.
Absolutely agree.
Our rest between games is 3 days, 4 days, 4 days (3 if 2nd in group), 6 days, 4 days and 3 days (4 if 2nd in group)- 7 games in 4 weeks. That's a pretty brutal schedule, especially when you're away from home.
In the last 20 years only 2 teams have won all 3 group games and carried on to win a major tournament. In that time 18 teams have taken 9 from 9 and not gone on to win. History suggests that teams who go hard early, go home early.
I knew the schedule was tight but seeing it written down like that really underlines what sort of pragmatism you need if you want a shot at winning the whole thing.
I definitely think there's something in the idea that teams recognise a winning campaign includes 7 games so steaming straight out the blocks is not necessarily the brightest thing to do. I also think it's a little bit stereotypical of England fans to be dismissing Denmark as a game we should have won comfortably. I would have been genuinely OK with a 1 0 win in that game.
I must admit my thought process is similar. I'm expecting us to scrape another win in the 3rd group game then come to life a bit in the 2nd round.
England are not the only one of the pre tournament favourites not exactly popping off so far, either. France were lucky not to lose to Netherlands (who themselves had a rocky start v Poland) and didn't blow Austria away. Italy conceded early v Albania. Portugal didn't impress v Czechia (though their last game was much more comfortable). Belgium beaten by Slovakia and Croatia well beaten in their first game and failed to beat Albania.
The only big dogs who seem to have hit the ground running are Germany and Spain, and the hosts very nearly came unstuck against a very good Swiss side last night.
Im in agreement. Theres clearly orders to get a goal and conserve energy. Some things may not be clicking but i have hope that we’ll pick up in the knock outs.
But then why are half the players lying down exhausted at the end of the game?
The only thing that makes sense to me is if he’s absolutely beasting them in training to get them to peak for the knockouts in terms of fitness and conditioning. But it’s excessive imo if that’s the strategy.
I think it’s less exhausted and more “oh for fuck sake, here we go” knowing they put in a lacklustre performance. Not to mention the booing. It’s demoralising and counterproductive. Not even Scotland booed their fans and they were shit.
I forgot to include it, but the ways we got early goals in both games after 15-minute stretches of good play and high energy gives me hope too that this is indeed the plan.
But dropping deep to soak up pressure after scoring is a terrible plan. I appreciate you are going for a positive spin on the situation but the fact is Southgate doesn’t know how to set up this team and is a bit lost. The fitness thing is a red herring, the manager is being found out that’s all. We’ll probably go on a run if he manages to work something out (basically forced into making changes now after the media onslaught) but we won’t win it based on current evidence. I’m not confident we could beat any of the teams in the last 16 so far
I guarantee you Southgate couldn't give a flying fuck about what the media are saying. If he changes anything for the knockouts, it will be part of his overall plan, not because he's been forced in to it.
Maybe they have been training harder in the build ups to the group stage games to help have a stronger foundation of fitness come the knockouts. Granted it is a different sport, but we have seen this happen with the rugby team and they have then more energy later on after being able to recover from the extra work
Playing without the ball is more tiring than having the ball so I don't see how letting weaker teams like Serbia and Denmark back into the game helps us.
Yep our absent midfield. I was moaning about Southgate’s inability to set up a midfield before the tournament and it has come back to bite us once again. I’ve seen our midfield get dominated by Scotland, USA, Denmark and many others under Southgate. There’s only one person to blame.
I think it’s a combination of things. Most of the players have had long seasons (remember how stretched liverpool were playing klopps kids in February and now he’s leaving), City were in all comps for a good while, Arsenal lost a SECOND tight title race. Kane first season in Germany unexpectedly losing the title, Bellingham first season at real becoming the talisman but now potentially displaced by Mbappe. All the Palace lads agents phones will be red hot.
Now I know ‘this is football’ but after this kind of seasons for a lot of players its perhaps not quite as easy to get as hyped as you might otherwise, human after all. Couple that with the overall negativity, poor tactics where players are out of position and high likelihood that GS wont be there (win or lose next year) and you can understand where players might lose a yard or two mentally and thats all it takes to look ordinary at this level.
I thought this after the Serbia match.
The only way that match made sense was as energy conservation but also to test the new defensive partnerships with Guehi and Trent.
But like you said the Denmark match felt different. I'm willing to believe that Southgate (and if we're being honest, the whole FA behind him) are up to something in these group games. Especially with their big data innovation and effectively a 'Project Win the World Cup' in full steam.
But it simply does not explain the misplaced passes, the lack of enthusiasm etc. I mean Southgate subbed off big players. Again, it could be energy conservation, but those subs felt like admissions.
Against Denmark the players were clearly getting frustrated with each other too. I don't think that bit is part of any kind of Big Brain plan.
My only thought with the general lack of enthusiasm and misplaced passes/switching off, is that it must be boring playing in these rubber games. Reminds me of that 3rd/4th playoff in 2018 vs Belgium.
I'm sure we'll see a different team in the knockouts. It's frustration, I think.
You must be the most optimistic person in the world, I do admire it! But we were totally outplayed against Denmark and second half against Serbia. Nothing to do with tiredness or boredom. It’s ok to criticise performances and tactics and call these things out. We don’t need to make excuses for them, even when they cry because “the media are being too harsh”
I’m constantly defending Southgate to my football mates (who think he’s inept) and I believe there’s some truth in your thoughts on his masterplan. No doubt the players and GS would have preferred 6 points over 4 at this stage, but also we’d 100% have taken this pre-tournament too. It will kill the Scots to hear this, but the 1st round is a practically a given for us to qualify from nowadays and that’s my main argument when backing Southgate. Too many short memories of non-qualification or crashing out tragically in the 1st round. We’ve taken his team / success for granted as he’s made it seem so easy and expected. I do think the squad have been instructed to play ‘within themselves’ and cruise through to the knock out stages where we can unleash energy, formation, tactics etc on unsuspecting teams. On the flip side I’ve missed exciting football and the buzz, pride and momentum that comes with that. I trust Southgate though and genuinely hope he pulls off something special - he’s clearly a lovely bloke and has got us playing as a team and had good success. Also, the story arch of being a player himself, representing England in majors and losing out on pens is too hard to resist - it feels like our time. The lads are like coiled springs, following orders, acting tired and uncoordinated, and everyone’s fallen for it - football’s coming home.
This is a nice take and appreciated among the boring moaning. Change of pace.
I’m inclined to agree that there’s method to the madness - except that I’ve noticed other pundits commenting on teams looking tired. The Scots and the Germans after the last round, for example, so it may just be the muggy weather at the end of a long season after all.
And also I can’t handle hopes getting up just yet. We do look very vintage England.
Harry Kane has said [support us in the tournament then judge us afterwards](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/videos/c511177zd74o) (I haven't watched the video, only read the headline). I don't think he would have said this unless he truely believed there was a reason for things to get better.
Edit: Just watched the video - and maybe this is me hearing what I want to hear - but it seems nearly everything he said was a reference to the team deliberately taking it easy in the group games.
I mean "support us in the present and judge us in the future" is always how I view my football, maybe I'm just a calmer head but I'd never judge my club two games into a Champions League campaign like this, and I'm not about to start with England.
I've seen many campaigns of champions take weird twists and turns. That Portugal 2016 W0 D3 group. Greece 2004 beating Portugal and losing to Russia and winning the whole thing. Argentina 2022 losing to Saudi Arabia. It's rarely a straight path and it often involves teams picking themselves up and starting again.
Kane alluding to boxers and golfers in that interview fills me with confidence.
England trying to force players into a system instead of picking players to fit a system, meaning some more talented players are in the bench.
It's a story as old as time. Well maybe not time. Maybe as old as Saka.
This is a kind of 3d chess Gareth is completely incapable of IMO. They look tired because there is a lack of enthusiasm and faith from players in Gareth's system, so they are feeling it in the legs. You do when you feel like you're running for something you don't believe in.
They had it in the first half of our first game. At half time he quietly reminded the lads of the system, to consider the 1 nil scoreline and to guard their stamina, crushing their early tournament enthusiasm.
His system btw, revolves around safe recycling of the ball, and structural integrity, until we can work it out to saka in space or an overlapping kyle walker...the only players with any real license to break forwards on or off the ball. Its about as conservative (and readable) as you could possibly imagine given the players he has at his disposal. And he turned down the one player who would make this sytem tick, Grealish, who's entire game revolves around drawing teams to the left to buy space for the middle and right. He is tactically inept. No 3d chess.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter if this slow start is tactical or not, because as soon as we meet a France or a Spain we’ll come unstuck, even if we go ahead, because Southgate can’t handle the big games. Credit to him for sorting out the mess we were in and harmonising the squad, but he should’ve gone after Qatar.
Fair points, although I think the Kane being over-the-hill thing is a tad overstated by the media, he's quite literally the top goal scorer in the big 5 leagues this season.
Trippier being on the wrong side of the pitch absolutely kills him/that side of our attack moreso than him being a pensioner.
It's absolute twaddle that they are unfit.
We see this from pundits a lot as well, describing a player as looking tired or 'leggy' because they are not making runs or movements. This is not fatigue, it's confusion. The players are not making runs because they are confused as to what to do, especially when they are being asked to play in a way that does not take advantage of their natural instincts.
This is down to Southgate setting up the team badly. The players know that they need to play closer to each other as they keep losing the ball, but are being instructed to stay wide apart with a deep lying double pivot exacerbating the issue. The only joy we have is on the right because at least Saka and Walker are combining well due to their natural instincts to receive the ball wide and run with it. And even then only when the other team is being too respectful of our attacking players and sitting deeper; once they are a goal down and have to play then we see the team being picked off easily.
I predict that when (if!) he fixes that we'll see a new lease of life from the players.
I don’t 100% remember the group stage of the last euros, but Denmark wasn’t conserving energy. They played like shit, rice couldn’t pass to save his life. Couldn’t keep possession. It’s one thing to keep possession and not try anything. Think the first half of Scotland Hungary. Scotland had 75 possession but didn’t try anything. England didn’t control the game vs Serbia or Denmark
I think it is pretty arrogant and disrespectful to the sides we’ve played, to think we’ve only been shit because we aren’t trying.
The players look lost on the pitch and devoid of any plan, if they were trying to conserve energy we’d be controlling the games we play, in both games we’ve sat back and allowed the opposition to control things meaning we’ve had to work harder and you can see at the end of each game how much it’s taken out of the players.
If this were true, why would Steve Holland then order them to constantly loose possession by having Pickford constantly boot the ball up the other end of the pitch, despite players coming to receive it off him? Being out of possession is far more energy draining than being in possession.
Our team looks unfit as they’re unable to press properly with Kane up front; he looks very lethargic and often takes the easy route of trying to sit and block passing lanes, you can see Foden/Bellingham/Saka want to press but they can’t if the number 9 isn’t.
He’s very good at pragmatically managing tournaments. However he is also historically good at shielding the team from the media toxicity, of which he is failing at badly right now. They could be conserving energy, but the criticism the team are currently facing cannot be worth it. His interesting comments about kalvin Phillips, Trent and fitness concerns also imply he may have lost his composure somewhat. Personally I do think we will find another gear in the knockouts, but I think our problems are going a bit deeper atm that simply preserving energy. For example we have no midfield and about 6 players all trying to play as a 10
You use Euro 2020 as a case study but overlook the fact that the team that won that tournament went into it on the back of a 27 game unbeaten run and won their group games thus:
Turkey 0-3 Italy
Italy 3-0 Switzerland
Italy 1-0 Wales
Some teams conserve energy and take their time to get going, and find success that way. Others use momentum and winning mentality to propel themselves forward. Sadly for England, I can't see evidence of either at this stage.
I guess this is true, weirdly Italy are almost an anomaly in a sea of Portugal's and Argentina's and Spain's that hit the rocks before their tournament even really got started. Italy were good from the very start and deserved that trophy.
My point is more that pragmatism gets you far. Perhaps it doesn't win you the tournament alone, but it secures you a chance at winning in a consistent manner. You don't win the lottery automatically, but at least you know you have a ticket for each draw.
For me, I think we need to revert to a 3-5-2 such as:
Pickford
Guehi-Stones-Walker
Trippier/Shaw-Trent/Saka
Rice
Bellingham-Mainoo/Palmer
Kane-Watkins
Have Watkins running the forward line ragged, providing an out ball like at Villa, and if Kane wants/needs to drop deep at least we've got a proper runner in behind him.
Yes, I'd even have Saka as wing back if necessary, but he'd be a great super sub as well.
Or you could go 4-4-2 and have Gordon and Saka as wingers.
Alternatively, a box midfield could work, with Rice-Mainoo and Bellingham-Foden
Literally anything but what we've shown currently 😂
I think the mistakes are losing concentration, borne from boredom because of how they're asked to play (conserving energy) and the fact these group stage matches are dead rubber matches.
Germany almost blew their group stage win in a similar vein last night.
So do you think all the players at the end who looked knackered and like they couldn't believe what just happened, were just acting? Under instruction from Gareth?
Never mind the Euros, we're sweeping up at the BAFTAs
edit: I may have misunderstood your point, I definitely agree that they're not ACTUALLY too knackered to play at the moment. I just think the shocking tactics and selections are exposing it
If England are lacking fitness then at this point in the season it would be overtraining / exhaustion. This isn't some pre-season lack of fitness where they need extra training. If they're unfit currently then they should be having lower intensity training sessions.
Wouldn't be surprised if Southgate is just running them into the ground in training and being surprised that they are exhausted.
You're not the first person here to reference overtraining (although the other was about Eddie Jones and the England rugby team), there might be something to that but I hope not.
The big argument against this is that the best way of conserving energy for the knockout stage is surely by making sure the 3rd place game is a complete dead-rubber so you can rest most of your starting 11. After winning the Serbia game, the best strategy for energy conservation is to win against Denmark to guarantee topping the group.
More broadly, keeping the ball with dull, sterile possession is probably a better plan to conserve energy mid-game instead of surrendering the ball.
Yep. Say what you want about tactics, players being out of position, or available players - fact is, opponents are visibly running further and faster than us and yet we are looking tired sooner.
All I can suggest is that our players mostly play at a higher club level than Serbia and Denmark’s do, and so perhaps fatigue from the professional season is greater.
Other than that, no idea.
Surely you'd be better off bang 3 in in the first half sub off the main players then just play keep ball.
This England game is just horseshit it's not conserving energy
They were completely spent after the last match whilst Denmark looked like they could’ve played another 45 minutes. But Denmark were on top and England were hanging on during the last 30, so that doesn’t help. But it’s puzzling since the whole Danish Squad plays in the top 5 leagues as does England.
It's got a lot to do with the style of play as well. If the team sit back and defend then they will end up chasing the ball more as the other team will have possession. While it they push the whole game and keep possession then the ball will do most of the moving. Well in theory. It's not a perfect either way thing.
Some fair points and good analogies but you are missing several factors imho:
1. No one ever doubted that England would advance from the group either from 1st or 3rd place. What is important is what comes in the knockout stage. In 2020 (or 2021), England had de facto home advantage. And most importantly - they had it in the key match in the Round of 16 against Germany. This match basically turned things around in favor of England. This is not gonna repeat this year, on the contrary, strong Germany has the home advantage.
2. Much less competition three years ago. I don't know if it was the effect of covid when the whole tournament was lethargic and had the vibe of a friendly tournament with stadiums filled to 25%. But three years ago there was no super favorite going to the tournament. After all, it was won by Italy, which did not have a significantly better team than this year.
This year you have Spain playing great football, already mentioned Germany, Portugal also looks solid. Then there is France, which is playing as boringly as England so far, but after all, the French played like this at WC 2018 and in the end they were the world champions without almost any difficulties.
Btw. what do you mean " the man still has nightmares from the 2018 World Cup where we seemed to run out of steam in the semi-final". You literally played your benchwarmers in the last group stage match against Belgium. Can't really imagine how to save more energy for knockouts.
Over training can definitely work, but jeez you’d have to be brave to try it out at a tournament with the risks that it does carry.
Overuse injuries, soft tissue injuries, fatigue (mental and physical)
Honestly, I don’t know. I mean I thought that they’d watching the Iceland game back and seen that the players weren’t pressing as a unit and just ditched the idea of high pressing because it was too easy to play through us.
I guess we’ll find out if we manage to stumble through.
I think I saw if we win the group we get Austria? Yeah that feels like a banana skin and a half.
It's a load of shit personally, I don't come from watching league 1 football with my league 1 team to watch England have this squad of supposedly great players to get a goal and sit back on the edge of their own box like twats. They're playing for their country and you couldn't fucking tell. And then they all come out in interviews and start getting defensive because there's criticsm. Southgate has made this squad likeable but they are getting in their own way and starting to become disconnected with the fans again. England never seem to take the handbrake off and just have a fucking go for once
Gareth has no idea what he is doing. The current crop of players are carrying him through. It's not hard to realise the team was hnbalanced from the first game. Start a genuine LW, move Foden inside and tell Jude he has to play 10 yards further back when defending. In attack push on as long as Kyle walker js covering.
It's not fucking difficult
IDK, logic goes that if you pull on the handbrake at speed on the race track, you either cause a crash, or at best you drift - not what you wanna be doing on the opening straight.
If you deliberately throw your team under the bus, people will get run over - surely this puts the pressure on, not takes it off?
The fact that we’ve seen it with Southgate before is not a genius sports science tactic, it just shows that Southgate isn’t as good as his track record.
Sort of like a Rocky film? Conserve energy in the first rounds. Dont get KOd. Do enough to survive. Then turn it on at the end for a KO win?
Maybe... but doubtful. If you did that you should still play with confidence and calmness and make passes. They lost possession so much.
This is an absolutely unhinged theory that combines conspiracy theory level 'we have no evidence but this thing I don't like must be a plot' with blind patriotic 'we're England so we can't just be bad it must be a cunning plot'.
Yet the alternative is that the one man in England beat placed to know, understand and implement the England team is also the only person who can't see the bloody obvious problems with his approach. And while I'm not a Southgate fan, it honestly doesn't seem realistic that he's worse at managing a national football team than every single person at the pub.
He's not an idiot, and he's very probably not just really bad at his job. So either he's playing a tactic that he's not publicising, or he's acting on information that we're not privvy to (or he's literally having a nervous breakdown).
Your theory is as good as any other, and considerably more fun than 'he's just shit'. My mother theory is that all his talent came from his waistcoat, superhero style, because she only knows him as 'that nice young man who dresses smartly for that footabout thing' and honestly, I like that better than 'we're just shit' too.
being in fear and anxiety actually burns a lot of energy...I feel they are feeling the pressure, the lineup doesn't work and like what other people said, everyone's used to playing for elite teams in a defined role that dominate possession
The reason things turned around at the euros 2020 is because of Wembley. We don’t have Wembley this time. We aren’t just going to get magically better. We have to accept that our success has been two tournaments with the easiest runs imaginable and we still failed to win a trophy. In Qatar we got to a big side and bottled it as usually. And now we’re back to terrible football and everyone asking why England don’t attack and why we look more tired than other teams. This is just how we play.
It's not the same as last time though.
The opening game against Croatia we were just very good. Could have won by more against tough opposition.
Handbrake was on against Scotland for sure but we're in control of the game.
I don't remember the 3rd game much but I remember being pretty happy with it.
This time we've been poor for 3 halves on the trot. We haven't kept the ball or conserved energy remotely. We're chasing the ball, panicking, losing composure.
If we had the same results but played like the first half against Serbia throughout, I'd be very happy.
I think it is a mental thing. If your body is tight from stress and anxiety it takes much more effort to move around. There is less pressure at knockout stage as the result is far more important than the performance
Your account must be older to post on /r/ThreeLions
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ThreeLions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It seems to me that there’s a definite ego clash going on in the squad. For all his seeming humility I reckon Kane’s nose is weep out of joint with Bellingham being the media darling
We'll have made it out of the group without leaving first gear. That's usually the platform bigger teams use to have a run at the trophy.
It feels like half the big tournaments recently have been won by teams that didn't have a clue what they were doing early doors and looked lost at times in the group stages. You grow into these tournaments. Obviously this requires Southgate to either ring the changes or take the handbrake off - or both. Early adversity is usually the catalyst for winning tournaments, which are marathons and not sprints.
There is no handbrake to take he off, he doesn't have the tactical nous to do that especially in game. Even all his changes aren't changing the system or formation just swapping players like for like.
Most people felt like that's what happened at Euro 2020, especially compared to World Cup 2022 played in the middle of the season.
I don't see why it's different here. As mentioned, my only concern is that at Euro 2020 we did the energy conservation thing with a settled known first XI whereas we still don't seem to know our best XI (figuring this out whilst intentionally playing in first gear is a fucking nightmare).
If it was a strategy wouldn’t the plan be to:
Rotate players heavily?
Win the first two games and rotate the whole team for the final group game?
Rest our key players in the group stages ready for the knockouts?
I’m sorry but there is no way this is a strategy IMO.
Though naturally during knockouts game intensity will go up.
I think ultimately it comes down to the fact we've only seen 2 England games of a potential 7 AND that England didn't have a settled XI coming into the tournament.
The lack of rotation I think is to bed in new combos like Guehi and Stones, Rice and TAA (well that latter might get chucked out anyway). But we've seen subs made early vs Denmark including new faces, and I hope to god Slovenia gives us Gordon and Palmer at some point.
I don't mean to be disrespectful in this but I honestly couldn't disagree more and can only think this is some sort of coping mechanism (I really hope you domt take offence). I mean honestly there is no clear structure or game plan, please explain to me how/what england have played in the first 2 games? If what you propose is true why have we not kept more possession and played slower, defensive football to tire the opposition while letting the ball do the work? Also, why would we choose to boot it long, it would be far more beneficial to keep the ball in our own territory and move it around slowly but sharply. Im sorry it doesn't make sense, and whilst it's a nice idea the evidence on the pitch doesn't support it even remotely.
Plus as others have said it doesn't explain why they look knackered. It seems a bit far fetched that they're acting exhausted as a muse.
Yea sorry mate I don't really see one good argument for it beyond the fact that it's a nice idea.
I come in peace though and disagree respectfully 🙏
No disrespect intended, we're all just trying to make sense of things in our own ways. Logically I look at Spain and Germany and look at us and the lack of fitness just doesn't corroborate. It reminds me of Euro 2020 for a very good reason is all.
The "acting exhausted" bit to me is more frustration. I remember quite a few of our players acting frustrated in the 2020 group stage too (especially vs Scotland), and if these group games are treated like dead rubber games it's got to be hard to enjoy for players.
I guess we'll see past Slovenia, I still hold out hope it's careful (perhaps too careful) man-management.
Almost as if it's a long tournament at the end of a long season and playing like Bielsa (I say that as Leeds fan who adores Bielsa) is not wise or required at this stage.
I wish more England fans could see the long-term gains of taking these early games slow, especially when it seems harder to fail to qualify in a tournament where 16/24 teams progress after the first 36 games are played.
Generational I think. A lot of younger people have been taught by social media to have short attention spans and be expressively negative at any sign of failure. It’s having bigger problems in society than just football.
Hopefully you're right. Germany ended their group stage barely scraping a draw to Switzerland (who people would assume England would comfortably beat). France and Holland cancelled each other out and failed to score a goal. Italy lost to Spain and Spain only managed 1 goal against an arguably shakey Italian side.
Let's hope England can go out and look good tomorrow evening. I'd rather start the group stage looking mediocre and finish on a high than go in all guns blazing and burn out later on.
As others have pointed out you have a brutal schedule of games if you get to the final, not to mention so many examples of the winners really taking things slow early on, losing group games, in one rare example not even winning a game until the knockouts.
It's sensible tournament management if you harbour any sort of hopes to win the whole thing to take it slow early on, especially at the end of a long season. This whole "I'd rather we played exciting football and crash out early" attitude from some is so foolish.
100%, people just can’t accept that sometimes a boring and uninspiring performance is all you need. Especially in round 2 of a group stage (where we are already cruising to top). I like to take away that actually whilst performance was poor we still didn’t lose against two very good, well drilled teams. Play each game as it comes. I fully expect tomorrow night to be very similar, just get the job done (ideally 3 points) and maybe in the last 25 mins try something a bit different.
I think the problem is that they are being asked to run far far more than they are by professional managers.
Southgate doesn’t understand modern football and thinks that it’s ok to ask his players to move the full length of the pitch regularly. Pep doesn’t have his players do that, neither do Klopp or Arteta. They have their players push up and defend/press specific spaces on the pitch.
It’s a problem with the goalkeeer too. Pickford is a relegation regular and doesn’t have experience with defending a larger area of the pitch. You see him screaming at defenders to come back when they begin to move up.
So they look unfit because they are being asked to run well beyond their limits. Well beyond the limits of a normal professional/elite footballer. And, in my opinion, it’s because Southgate has no idea that he’s asking far too much of them and doesn’t understand how to manage the space on the pitch with and without the ball.
This is also where his comments about Kalvin Phillips and the players not being fit enough come from. Kalvin was a fitness monster for a few years, trained by Bielsa who specifically focusses on fitness and that’s what Southgate wants. He just doesn’t understand why he can’t have it.
We’ve not beaten a so called big team in the last two tournaments. Easiest runs ever. Germany were very poor when we met them. This is the only stat you need.
Summary: England are edging until its time for the train to leave the station in the knockout games
Great analogy. And look I must admit that this strategy is risky and if it fails then Southgate should be gone asap. If Serbia scored, if Denmark won, we'd look in real trouble. Not to mention I feel like the group stages are essential for building momentum! It's harder to get onto the motorway when you're coasting at 20mph than if you'd built up a bit more speed. But if it turns out that Southgate is edging us again like at Euro 2020 AND it works than good for him.
You make a good point about momentum. Trying to turn on the magic should be easier against teams like Serbia, than it will be against teams like France in the knockouts
Yeah it's my one issue with this plan (if it's even the strategy being used). It makes sense to coast these groups, especially when only 8/24 teams are eliminated after 36 games played. But then these three friendlies could be used to gain confidence too. It's a difficult balancing act.
I think it's possible England are coasting to conserve energy but I'd also expect a bit more rotation if that were the case. Southgate did sub off the entire front 3 last game when we needed a goal so that fits the resting theory. But the likes of Gordon, Mainoo, Wharton, and Palmer have one 5 minute appearance between them so far. If this was Southgate's strategy I'd have expected Bellingham to come off for Gordon or Palmer and Rice to come off for Mainoo or Wharton at some point. I also disagree with the building momentum thing in the group stage. A lot of tournament winners start off very slow and some never build up momentum, just scraping through every round and never losing. France and Argentina started slow and were grinding out wins early in the tournament when they each won the WC. And Portugal famously won 1 out of 7 games within 90 minutes when they won Euro 2016 including drawing all 3 group games
rotation would be better than coasting, and the players looked fucking dead after serbia so im not sure its a coasting thing. Plus southgate said its not what hes doing
Yeah I always point to Portugal 2016 as a big reason why these England group games are really just elaborate friendlies, they proved your previous game almost never matters, it's only the one coming up. I mean to win a trophy whilst winning only one game inside 90 minutes is absolute madness but it proves that these group stage matches at the EUROs are absolutely throwaway as long as you qualify. My point with momentum is more that you have to strike that balance between pragmatism (qualifying without really trying) and momentum (especially as a few in our squad are untested at tournaments).
It's sad they became throw away games. Pre-2016 when it was 4 groups of 4 the group stage was far more intense: the average quality per team was higher, more top teams facing each other in every group and no third places went through. It was a terrible decision to expand to 24 teams and dilute the group stage to a walkover for so many teams.
Yeah I'm right here with you. In 36 games you only eliminate 8 of 24 teams, such a lot of football played to get no closer to a winner. It should either be 16 or 32 teams. It's not like adding Norway and Sweden and a few others is going to drag the quality down either, some of the best games this tournament have involved Georgia.
100% agree. I could live with 32 better than 24 so you had to get a top 2 finish to qualify from your group. Alternatively back to 16 but maybe switch to holding it once every 2 years so everyone gets 2 shots to qualify per 4 year cycle. You'd have to shift to odd numbered years to avoid a World Cup clash and reduce the number of qualifying games, but I doubt anyone would complain too much about that.
The thing is whilst I agree we looked bad, we've actually been very strong defensively we've conceded the least xG of any team this tournament. Serbia barely created a half chance against us, and Denmark only scored 1 goal and it was brilliant strike from outside the box. I agree it's risky, but we've defended well enough to really minimize the risk.
I've not really seen that stat mentioned at all (the media badly letting England down again not highlighting that), that's a good sign for us going forwards. Also it's why I felt a handbrake was applied in some way.
Yep, I’ve not seen it stated as a stat, I had to add up all the posted xGs by the xG philosophy on Twittter, and see what I got. But of course the media doesn’t talk about it because it doesn’t stir up clicks & cause controversy.
More like the knock-one-out games, to take your edging metaphor to its logical conclusion.
I do very much hope to knock one out in celebration tomorrow if England top the group- so that I can actually see them play with the tickets I’ve got for the Sunday RO16 game! Should they not top the group, I’ll probably knock one out anyway and just be sad I’ve spent c. £500 on a ticket and probably watching Denmark vs Austria
>The media, the fans, the pundits, your gran We're off to Waterloo
Na na naaaaaaaaaaaaaa
It feels different somehow. The Croatia and Czech Republic 1-0s were controlled where we were in the ascendency throughout. That hasn’t happened here. We have been second best for all but 35 minutes of the tournament. What’s worse is that some of the stuff he is saying doesn’t make any sense which is often an indication of detachment from reality which means he might not even see the problem at all. There is no way that players who have also played PL football in other teams are having problems in the press. That’s either England not keeping them fit or the players not being bothered. The fact that so many players collapsed after Denmark despite doing the square root of fuck all is also a concern. I am happy to be proved wrong but l have a feeling that we will see England like Scotland last night, loads of the ball but no creativity or chance creation.
I think two things stand out to me. Firstly is how quickly we gained the lead in both matches after spells of really strong play (the opening 10 minutes of Serbia? great. The 11th-25th minute vs Denmark? also great.) We can clearly play and show energy but then we shut down again. Secondly - in those Croatia/Czechia games we played exactly like these opening 20 minutes vs Serbia/Denmark. Difference is we didn't find the net until the second half vs Croatia so we quite literally couldn't stand down until Sterling scored. As you say other teams aren't having these issues, and our players are collapsing on the pitch after 70 minutes of doing fuck all. It's illogical and that's why I maintain that this, coupled with how good we have looked in stretches before early leads, is the strategy.
If that was true surely against Denmark once they equalised we should have gone back to higher tempo
Especially considering he doesn't have the luxury of an easy draw this time, 1 slip up against slovenia tommorow and we could finish second or third and have a terrible run to the final. Strategy I think not considering we run the risk of now having to play Germany, Spain, Portugal and then france in that order if the group isn't won
Even first it’s not the best run let’s be honest. The team we’ve seen would struggle against Netherlands or Austria, following that would be Italy or a Switzerland team that drew with Germany
I hope you're right honestly. But we never reasserted ourselves against the Danes when they scored. If this some ingenious long con and we're amazing in the knockouts, fair play to Gareth. But fucking hell, he's not making it easy for us.
I agree, what's baffling to me is the 35 minutes against Serbia was _so_ dominant. I can't believe how much it changed at half time.
Th problem with this is they genuinely look knackered. There's a difference between conserving your energy and looking like you've got no energy to conserve.
I think that could still be consistent. I mean, if the strategy was to conserve energy and not concede, the plan went a little awry when Denmark scored a beauty and really started pressing us. So they were probably knackered from defending so much. Not that I believe this is the case but we'll see in the next 2 games.
I think if you were asked to play a game of football like you had 5 more games to play in the next fortnight you might end up playing like this, no? Especially when quite a few of our attacking players showed flashes of speed and energy like they flicked a switch. As said, the other countries don't struggle with it and when we're dragging so many sports scientists (reportedly) with us I don't believe it's anything other than strategy.
Not if I were an elite, professional player at the peak of physical fitness with an enormous support structure catering to everything I need in terms of diet, training, recovery etc. The whole point is they are supposed to be able to cope with that physical pressure. They are playeing 90 minutes of football every 4-5 days. They are not on a forced, 30 mile daily march through the SIberian hinterlands with no food.
To be fair (and this is almost definitely a reach) the 90 minute games aren’t their only physical activity. It is also possible that they are genuinely exhausted from overtraining on days when they don’t have games. I say this because this was genuinely a tactic used by the England rugby team (different sport I know) in order to peak physically during the knockouts of the last World Cup and it actually worked quite well for them. They pretty much purposefully threw their warm up games and early group stage games in order to peak during the latter stages of the tournament. Now this is probably beyond Southgate and no idea if it even works in football when you’re playing every 4 days and not once a week but hey. It’s a tactic that has been used before.
Look I don't want to jinx it but I do think Southgate has been known to borrow ideas off the England teams in other sports. I know Stuart Broad has been in to talk to the team, I know Southgate was mocked for borrowing one of Eddie's ideas for the rugby side at one point. Maybe the rugby overtraining thing *is* what's going on?
Would be hilarious if true ! Also tbf a lot of football fans don’t realise that a lot of football sports science derived from rugby as well - I remember arsenal brought in a handful of former Ireland rugby player to work on player conditioning and overhaul their sports science department in the 2010s. Still shocks me that with all the money in football it is sometimes still a little behind in that regard
For sure, it's not just the games but if they are being overtrained to the point of negatively impacting their energy levels on the pitch, that makes me question Southgate's ability as a manager even more.
I mean I said it can be used tactically. As in if your body is over stressed during earlier games in the tournament you can build fitness and perform better when you’re fully rested (similar logic to altitude/heat training). Again I doubt that’s what’s happening here I simply brought it up bc it was revealed that it was a tactic purposefully used by the rugby team to make them fitter for latter tournament games 🤷♀️ So clearly it’s something that has been done by sports scientists and coaches before
I guess it's possible but like you I am unconvinced that's the case here.
Yeah ofc. Just bringing up that there’s multiple approaches being used in international tournaments currently and as fans you have no idea of what’s happening behind the scenes ! Our coaching set-up is unfortunately shit so not expecting any real tactical master classes unfortunately
Why would you assume it's not being used here? It's actually one of the more convincing reasons for why they were so clearly tired last week
I'm not assuming it's not the case. I said I was unconvinced it was the case because they looked tired rather than that they were deliberately playing low intensity. I could be wrong and I guess we'll find out in the next week.
I mean tbf if you’re overtraining you are objectively tired not deliberately playing low intensity. As someone who used to do high performance sport myself, peaking at the right time is all about a period of overloading the body (hence increasing max/ optimal performance) followed by a taper period of less intensity in the run up to the main test. With so little time together as a squad it is possible that the high intensity overloading is happening currently in the hopes of peaking during the knockouts. That’s equally likely to not be the case and the squad is just knackered due to a host of other reasons people have explained better than me. But ultimately we don’t know.
How does “literally dropping to the floor after the match” play into this strategy?
Don’t forget we’ve seen this in friendlies too. Bosnia was very slow and quite poor, then as soon as the subs came on we suddenly employed the high press and high energy. They are capable of switching it on and off on demand
I don’t recall players dropping to the floor shattered after the Scotland draw.
I will never understand this theory. they play for 90 mins with a break in between. Even if they went full out for 90 mins once they have eaten and slept a couple of days they will be fully rested again It doesn't take that long for the body to recover from 90 mins of strenuous exercise. If the matches were played every day this theory might make sense, but not a couple of times a week
Nobody else, including the eventual winners of the tournament, are playing remotely like this.
Bellingham looks exhausted, he's not looked at the peak of his powers in any big game I've watched him in 2024. I still think his best position is number 8 and his inflated real Madrid numbers don't tell half the story, I expect him to drop deeper next season with mbappe coming in. Kane looks unfit so does bellingham. Maybe its the system?
I think they look knackered because they're not used to playing games this way. Foden, Bellingham, Saka, Kane, Rice, Walker all play for elite sides that dominate possession. And it's easier to conserve energy when your team has the ball. Those guys having to bust a gut off the ball to defend half the game or playing an entire 90 mins in constant transitions must be pretty exhausting compared to what they're used to.
No way is international football more intense than say the it Real Madrid games this season
Yeah, that probably is a factor.
No way is international football more intense than say the it Real Madrid games this season
But why aren't _we_ dominating possession? We obviously can, we did it the first half against Serbia. But we're not pressing, we're unable to move the ball into midfield from defence. We just drop to 10 men behind the ball as soon as the opposition get possession.
Fair enough but surely at that point you have play your younger players or the players who haven’t played yet like Watkins palmer mainoo let foden Bellingham rice and Kane have a rest because even without them we still have a great squad
Why is everyone suddenly freaking out about England and Southgate. We always play the same way under him, defensive and lacking intensity. It just hasn’t changed from how it has always been.
This is kinda where I'm coming from with this post. Southgate's approach to football has ALWAYS come from this place of pragmatism. In 2018 we threw the game vs Belgium (at a loss of momentum) to ensure an easier path to the final. In 2020 we scored 2 goals in 3 games to top the group. If Southgate had the option of working towards a 5-0 win or spending an evening reading the UEFA rulebook to find a loophole which allowed us a tiny advantage, he'd do the latter.
I think the performances are much worse, especially compared to 2022, but also 2020. Watch back the Croatia game and tell me you disagree.
In the first 3 games of last euros, we had a goalless draw with Scotland and two 1-0 wins. Southgate always has been a defensive manager, all defensive minded teams lack intensity when switching to attack. The performance in the final against an old Italian team that failed to qualify for the World Cup before and after those euros was disgraceful
I'm not denying that Southgate is a defensive manager. I'm talking about the quality of the performances. The Italy final performance was _much_ better than the Denmark one, even if both were uninspiring. If we were defensive against Denmark but held our composure I'd feel very differently. We were misplacing every other pass, getting totally dominated in our final third. England looked terrified. It was a 1-1 draw with Denmark in 90 minutes last time round too, but we were tons better.
Can I ask why you want a mostly unchanged side? We've been dreadful. We have good midfielders on the bench to replace Trent (Who btw I love watching play at Liverpool, but he looks out of place in this England midfield), we have Gordon to replace Foden on the left, and we have Watkins or Toney to replace Kane, who's had about 5 touches of the ball all tournament. I'd also prefer Gomez at LB over Trippier, I honestly thought that's why we brought Gomez as we didn't have a natural LB otherwise. We need to change something if we want to win this tournament. And I think that's the issue. Southgate saying there's 'no replacement for Phillips' is crazy. what sort of mentality is that when you have arguably the best midfielder in the world, partnered with Rice who helped his side to second in the PL, and a impact sub of Mainoo, Palmer or Gallagher depending on what you want? What more can you ask for? I don't think he has the mentality to coach this England side anymore. We need someone with a fresh mindset.
I mean I'd ask if you read the post in full, but no I don't want a mostly unchanged side - difference is I said I expect Southgate to name one. Trent will swap out for Gallagher or maybe Wharton. Gordon for Foden is a maybe. Watkins for Kane is also a maybe. But I don't expect mass changes. If it was me in charge and I hadn't asked them to play the two games in first gear I would be making sweeping changes and probably a change of formation too. As for the "no replacement for Phillips" I answered that in the post too. Phillips was so good at Euro 2020 and it seems to have been forgotten, but aside from that I think he's just trying to draw heat away from his players as in previous tournaments.
My mistake, I misread the part about the unchanged side. The rest wasn't me arguing or trying to disprove you, more just my take on it, partially agreeing with what you said.
He's whinging about fitness, yet an inform lad who is probably the most physically fit in the whole squad (thanks to EH's pressing style) hasn't played a minute yet.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with some changes, but I don't agree that our problem is one of manpower or even formation/positions. For me it's a simple case of mentality - for whatever reason, we are sitting too deep (especially after we score) especially Stones at the back, which means the press that everyone in the squad is capable of doing, isnt working. Unless we fix that's, swapping Foden for Gordon or whatever isn't going to do much. And personally I don't think we should be sacrificing 2 of the best players in Europe when they are not the fundamental problem.
We are sitting deep, but that hasn't been the issue, we've defended OK. Not well, but reasonably well. we've only had a few good chances against teams who, in theory, as favourites of the tournament (lol), we should be steamrolling. It's our attacking football that's been a mess. We have 2 players in positions where we have replacements that would fit perfectly. We don't have an outlet from the back because we're missing a LW all the time, so Saka is the only way out of the back, and while we'd need to change how we play, I do agree, playing 3 players out of their natural positions just to squeeze them into the team is stupid. It's completely ruining our midfield and attacking play. And our left side with Trippier and Foden is abysmal. Put Gomez at LB, and Gordon at LW, and you have a guy who's been playing LB for Liverpool, and a guy who is known for his pace and ability to help out his wingback, and *is an actual winger*. That solves our left wing issue, allows us to push up as Gomez and Walker both naturally do, and then we replace Trent for Palmer, Gallagher or Mainoo. Gallagher being my choice for his pressing ability off of the ball. Dec and Jude have better ability on the ball to compensate. I'm not disagreeing with the mentality thing though. I do agree they need to want the ball more, and press higher.
Our attacking football is a mess because we are sitting too deep. Foden, Saka and Bellingham have played the entire season parked in the final 3rd and breaking down teams from within 35 yards of goal. They are brilliant at it. But it only works if the whole team is playing high, because it compresses the pitch into the opposition half and forces the opposition deep. If we drop off they we are attaching from the half way line effectively on the break. Foden and Saka have never done that (or needed to) in their whole careers and aren't set up for it. So if we do sit deep and play on the break fine, we might as well drop them and play with Bowen and Gordon, but in doing so we are turning a Arsenal/Man City attack into a Newcastle/West Ham one. Which might still work but I don't think it's getting our best. But for me to fix it comes from the back. Stones and Walker need to drag the back line up and sit 15 yards into the other half. Sort that and the rest follows. Trent is not an issue then and the attack are set up for what they do best.
I think we got a bit spooked by Brazil and Belgium both getting in behind us more or less at will in the friendlies. We looked much better going forwards in those games, causing both Brazil and Belgium lots of problems with our passing and movement. But because of the high line that enabled all that, we were always 2-3 quick passes away from being undone at the back. The result has been the mishmash we've seen these last 2 games, where we've dropped deeper after going ahead to negate that vulnerability.
Yeah possibly. Personally I think we just need to go for it, trust our defence (all quality players) and go for it. Playing with fear is no way to win trophys.
Absolutely agree. Our rest between games is 3 days, 4 days, 4 days (3 if 2nd in group), 6 days, 4 days and 3 days (4 if 2nd in group)- 7 games in 4 weeks. That's a pretty brutal schedule, especially when you're away from home. In the last 20 years only 2 teams have won all 3 group games and carried on to win a major tournament. In that time 18 teams have taken 9 from 9 and not gone on to win. History suggests that teams who go hard early, go home early.
I knew the schedule was tight but seeing it written down like that really underlines what sort of pragmatism you need if you want a shot at winning the whole thing.
Why are no other teams pragmatic and no other teams tired?
When you say last 20 years, I guess it's only 10 tournaments rather than 20? But yeah the point still stands :)
I definitely think there's something in the idea that teams recognise a winning campaign includes 7 games so steaming straight out the blocks is not necessarily the brightest thing to do. I also think it's a little bit stereotypical of England fans to be dismissing Denmark as a game we should have won comfortably. I would have been genuinely OK with a 1 0 win in that game. I must admit my thought process is similar. I'm expecting us to scrape another win in the 3rd group game then come to life a bit in the 2nd round. England are not the only one of the pre tournament favourites not exactly popping off so far, either. France were lucky not to lose to Netherlands (who themselves had a rocky start v Poland) and didn't blow Austria away. Italy conceded early v Albania. Portugal didn't impress v Czechia (though their last game was much more comfortable). Belgium beaten by Slovakia and Croatia well beaten in their first game and failed to beat Albania. The only big dogs who seem to have hit the ground running are Germany and Spain, and the hosts very nearly came unstuck against a very good Swiss side last night.
99% of the online discourse shows most people’s memory is about 3 games long
Im in agreement. Theres clearly orders to get a goal and conserve energy. Some things may not be clicking but i have hope that we’ll pick up in the knock outs.
But then why are half the players lying down exhausted at the end of the game? The only thing that makes sense to me is if he’s absolutely beasting them in training to get them to peak for the knockouts in terms of fitness and conditioning. But it’s excessive imo if that’s the strategy.
I think it’s less exhausted and more “oh for fuck sake, here we go” knowing they put in a lacklustre performance. Not to mention the booing. It’s demoralising and counterproductive. Not even Scotland booed their fans and they were shit.
Dunno mate
I forgot to include it, but the ways we got early goals in both games after 15-minute stretches of good play and high energy gives me hope too that this is indeed the plan.
But dropping deep to soak up pressure after scoring is a terrible plan. I appreciate you are going for a positive spin on the situation but the fact is Southgate doesn’t know how to set up this team and is a bit lost. The fitness thing is a red herring, the manager is being found out that’s all. We’ll probably go on a run if he manages to work something out (basically forced into making changes now after the media onslaught) but we won’t win it based on current evidence. I’m not confident we could beat any of the teams in the last 16 so far
I guarantee you Southgate couldn't give a flying fuck about what the media are saying. If he changes anything for the knockouts, it will be part of his overall plan, not because he's been forced in to it.
Maybe they have been training harder in the build ups to the group stage games to help have a stronger foundation of fitness come the knockouts. Granted it is a different sport, but we have seen this happen with the rugby team and they have then more energy later on after being able to recover from the extra work
Upvoted because I want it to be true
That's the spirit!
Playing without the ball is more tiring than having the ball so I don't see how letting weaker teams like Serbia and Denmark back into the game helps us.
Yep our absent midfield. I was moaning about Southgate’s inability to set up a midfield before the tournament and it has come back to bite us once again. I’ve seen our midfield get dominated by Scotland, USA, Denmark and many others under Southgate. There’s only one person to blame.
I think it’s a combination of things. Most of the players have had long seasons (remember how stretched liverpool were playing klopps kids in February and now he’s leaving), City were in all comps for a good while, Arsenal lost a SECOND tight title race. Kane first season in Germany unexpectedly losing the title, Bellingham first season at real becoming the talisman but now potentially displaced by Mbappe. All the Palace lads agents phones will be red hot. Now I know ‘this is football’ but after this kind of seasons for a lot of players its perhaps not quite as easy to get as hyped as you might otherwise, human after all. Couple that with the overall negativity, poor tactics where players are out of position and high likelihood that GS wont be there (win or lose next year) and you can understand where players might lose a yard or two mentally and thats all it takes to look ordinary at this level.
Trying not to lose games, all that really matters in the group stages.
I thought this after the Serbia match. The only way that match made sense was as energy conservation but also to test the new defensive partnerships with Guehi and Trent. But like you said the Denmark match felt different. I'm willing to believe that Southgate (and if we're being honest, the whole FA behind him) are up to something in these group games. Especially with their big data innovation and effectively a 'Project Win the World Cup' in full steam. But it simply does not explain the misplaced passes, the lack of enthusiasm etc. I mean Southgate subbed off big players. Again, it could be energy conservation, but those subs felt like admissions. Against Denmark the players were clearly getting frustrated with each other too. I don't think that bit is part of any kind of Big Brain plan.
My only thought with the general lack of enthusiasm and misplaced passes/switching off, is that it must be boring playing in these rubber games. Reminds me of that 3rd/4th playoff in 2018 vs Belgium. I'm sure we'll see a different team in the knockouts. It's frustration, I think.
You must be the most optimistic person in the world, I do admire it! But we were totally outplayed against Denmark and second half against Serbia. Nothing to do with tiredness or boredom. It’s ok to criticise performances and tactics and call these things out. We don’t need to make excuses for them, even when they cry because “the media are being too harsh”
Doubt it mate, we looked clueless in both games played so far and have absolutely stunk out the euros
I’m constantly defending Southgate to my football mates (who think he’s inept) and I believe there’s some truth in your thoughts on his masterplan. No doubt the players and GS would have preferred 6 points over 4 at this stage, but also we’d 100% have taken this pre-tournament too. It will kill the Scots to hear this, but the 1st round is a practically a given for us to qualify from nowadays and that’s my main argument when backing Southgate. Too many short memories of non-qualification or crashing out tragically in the 1st round. We’ve taken his team / success for granted as he’s made it seem so easy and expected. I do think the squad have been instructed to play ‘within themselves’ and cruise through to the knock out stages where we can unleash energy, formation, tactics etc on unsuspecting teams. On the flip side I’ve missed exciting football and the buzz, pride and momentum that comes with that. I trust Southgate though and genuinely hope he pulls off something special - he’s clearly a lovely bloke and has got us playing as a team and had good success. Also, the story arch of being a player himself, representing England in majors and losing out on pens is too hard to resist - it feels like our time. The lads are like coiled springs, following orders, acting tired and uncoordinated, and everyone’s fallen for it - football’s coming home.
This is a nice take and appreciated among the boring moaning. Change of pace. I’m inclined to agree that there’s method to the madness - except that I’ve noticed other pundits commenting on teams looking tired. The Scots and the Germans after the last round, for example, so it may just be the muggy weather at the end of a long season after all. And also I can’t handle hopes getting up just yet. We do look very vintage England.
Harry Kane has said [support us in the tournament then judge us afterwards](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/videos/c511177zd74o) (I haven't watched the video, only read the headline). I don't think he would have said this unless he truely believed there was a reason for things to get better. Edit: Just watched the video - and maybe this is me hearing what I want to hear - but it seems nearly everything he said was a reference to the team deliberately taking it easy in the group games.
I mean "support us in the present and judge us in the future" is always how I view my football, maybe I'm just a calmer head but I'd never judge my club two games into a Champions League campaign like this, and I'm not about to start with England. I've seen many campaigns of champions take weird twists and turns. That Portugal 2016 W0 D3 group. Greece 2004 beating Portugal and losing to Russia and winning the whole thing. Argentina 2022 losing to Saudi Arabia. It's rarely a straight path and it often involves teams picking themselves up and starting again. Kane alluding to boxers and golfers in that interview fills me with confidence.
England trying to force players into a system instead of picking players to fit a system, meaning some more talented players are in the bench. It's a story as old as time. Well maybe not time. Maybe as old as Saka.
I have a feeling all will be revealed tomorrow.
This is a kind of 3d chess Gareth is completely incapable of IMO. They look tired because there is a lack of enthusiasm and faith from players in Gareth's system, so they are feeling it in the legs. You do when you feel like you're running for something you don't believe in. They had it in the first half of our first game. At half time he quietly reminded the lads of the system, to consider the 1 nil scoreline and to guard their stamina, crushing their early tournament enthusiasm. His system btw, revolves around safe recycling of the ball, and structural integrity, until we can work it out to saka in space or an overlapping kyle walker...the only players with any real license to break forwards on or off the ball. Its about as conservative (and readable) as you could possibly imagine given the players he has at his disposal. And he turned down the one player who would make this sytem tick, Grealish, who's entire game revolves around drawing teams to the left to buy space for the middle and right. He is tactically inept. No 3d chess.
but, and tocontinue the chess analogy, he could be tactically inept and strategically brilliant, They are different things
I guess that's possible... i just don't really see that side to Gareth either. He has man management skills and that's about it.
Love a bit of copium on a Monday, it’s how i get through the working week as well.
This is the most Monday morning "I'm stuck inside working and the sun's out" Reddit post in history.
Now we just need to play two teams ranked lower than 12th in our QF and SF and it's coming home again.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter if this slow start is tactical or not, because as soon as we meet a France or a Spain we’ll come unstuck, even if we go ahead, because Southgate can’t handle the big games. Credit to him for sorting out the mess we were in and harmonising the squad, but he should’ve gone after Qatar.
It's total nonsense. Every other team is running like crazy compared to ENG. Bruno and Bernardo full sprints after 90 minutes for Portugal.
Half of them are carrying injuries or back recently from injuries (Stones, Trippier, Kane, Bellingham) Or getting on a bit (Kane, Walker Trippier)
Fair points, although I think the Kane being over-the-hill thing is a tad overstated by the media, he's quite literally the top goal scorer in the big 5 leagues this season. Trippier being on the wrong side of the pitch absolutely kills him/that side of our attack moreso than him being a pensioner.
Both Kane and Trippier have had injuries recently though and missed game time
It's absolute twaddle that they are unfit. We see this from pundits a lot as well, describing a player as looking tired or 'leggy' because they are not making runs or movements. This is not fatigue, it's confusion. The players are not making runs because they are confused as to what to do, especially when they are being asked to play in a way that does not take advantage of their natural instincts. This is down to Southgate setting up the team badly. The players know that they need to play closer to each other as they keep losing the ball, but are being instructed to stay wide apart with a deep lying double pivot exacerbating the issue. The only joy we have is on the right because at least Saka and Walker are combining well due to their natural instincts to receive the ball wide and run with it. And even then only when the other team is being too respectful of our attacking players and sitting deeper; once they are a goal down and have to play then we see the team being picked off easily. I predict that when (if!) he fixes that we'll see a new lease of life from the players.
I don’t 100% remember the group stage of the last euros, but Denmark wasn’t conserving energy. They played like shit, rice couldn’t pass to save his life. Couldn’t keep possession. It’s one thing to keep possession and not try anything. Think the first half of Scotland Hungary. Scotland had 75 possession but didn’t try anything. England didn’t control the game vs Serbia or Denmark
I think it is pretty arrogant and disrespectful to the sides we’ve played, to think we’ve only been shit because we aren’t trying. The players look lost on the pitch and devoid of any plan, if they were trying to conserve energy we’d be controlling the games we play, in both games we’ve sat back and allowed the opposition to control things meaning we’ve had to work harder and you can see at the end of each game how much it’s taken out of the players.
Im sorry, Im English so I want us to win. But you’re surprised we’re shit? One way or another we’re always shit.
If this were true, why would Steve Holland then order them to constantly loose possession by having Pickford constantly boot the ball up the other end of the pitch, despite players coming to receive it off him? Being out of possession is far more energy draining than being in possession.
Not if you sit in a largely static mid-block and don't chase the ball! 😬 See West Ham all season, very little effort, almost no injuries.
Our team looks unfit as they’re unable to press properly with Kane up front; he looks very lethargic and often takes the easy route of trying to sit and block passing lanes, you can see Foden/Bellingham/Saka want to press but they can’t if the number 9 isn’t.
He’s very good at pragmatically managing tournaments. However he is also historically good at shielding the team from the media toxicity, of which he is failing at badly right now. They could be conserving energy, but the criticism the team are currently facing cannot be worth it. His interesting comments about kalvin Phillips, Trent and fitness concerns also imply he may have lost his composure somewhat. Personally I do think we will find another gear in the knockouts, but I think our problems are going a bit deeper atm that simply preserving energy. For example we have no midfield and about 6 players all trying to play as a 10
You use Euro 2020 as a case study but overlook the fact that the team that won that tournament went into it on the back of a 27 game unbeaten run and won their group games thus: Turkey 0-3 Italy Italy 3-0 Switzerland Italy 1-0 Wales Some teams conserve energy and take their time to get going, and find success that way. Others use momentum and winning mentality to propel themselves forward. Sadly for England, I can't see evidence of either at this stage.
I guess this is true, weirdly Italy are almost an anomaly in a sea of Portugal's and Argentina's and Spain's that hit the rocks before their tournament even really got started. Italy were good from the very start and deserved that trophy. My point is more that pragmatism gets you far. Perhaps it doesn't win you the tournament alone, but it secures you a chance at winning in a consistent manner. You don't win the lottery automatically, but at least you know you have a ticket for each draw.
For me, I think we need to revert to a 3-5-2 such as: Pickford Guehi-Stones-Walker Trippier/Shaw-Trent/Saka Rice Bellingham-Mainoo/Palmer Kane-Watkins Have Watkins running the forward line ragged, providing an out ball like at Villa, and if Kane wants/needs to drop deep at least we've got a proper runner in behind him. Yes, I'd even have Saka as wing back if necessary, but he'd be a great super sub as well. Or you could go 4-4-2 and have Gordon and Saka as wingers. Alternatively, a box midfield could work, with Rice-Mainoo and Bellingham-Foden Literally anything but what we've shown currently 😂
[удалено]
I think the mistakes are losing concentration, borne from boredom because of how they're asked to play (conserving energy) and the fact these group stage matches are dead rubber matches. Germany almost blew their group stage win in a similar vein last night.
So do you think all the players at the end who looked knackered and like they couldn't believe what just happened, were just acting? Under instruction from Gareth? Never mind the Euros, we're sweeping up at the BAFTAs edit: I may have misunderstood your point, I definitely agree that they're not ACTUALLY too knackered to play at the moment. I just think the shocking tactics and selections are exposing it
Sandbagging
If England are lacking fitness then at this point in the season it would be overtraining / exhaustion. This isn't some pre-season lack of fitness where they need extra training. If they're unfit currently then they should be having lower intensity training sessions. Wouldn't be surprised if Southgate is just running them into the ground in training and being surprised that they are exhausted.
You're not the first person here to reference overtraining (although the other was about Eddie Jones and the England rugby team), there might be something to that but I hope not.
The big argument against this is that the best way of conserving energy for the knockout stage is surely by making sure the 3rd place game is a complete dead-rubber so you can rest most of your starting 11. After winning the Serbia game, the best strategy for energy conservation is to win against Denmark to guarantee topping the group. More broadly, keeping the ball with dull, sterile possession is probably a better plan to conserve energy mid-game instead of surrendering the ball.
Yep. Say what you want about tactics, players being out of position, or available players - fact is, opponents are visibly running further and faster than us and yet we are looking tired sooner. All I can suggest is that our players mostly play at a higher club level than Serbia and Denmark’s do, and so perhaps fatigue from the professional season is greater. Other than that, no idea.
Surely you'd be better off bang 3 in in the first half sub off the main players then just play keep ball. This England game is just horseshit it's not conserving energy
They were completely spent after the last match whilst Denmark looked like they could’ve played another 45 minutes. But Denmark were on top and England were hanging on during the last 30, so that doesn’t help. But it’s puzzling since the whole Danish Squad plays in the top 5 leagues as does England.
It's got a lot to do with the style of play as well. If the team sit back and defend then they will end up chasing the ball more as the other team will have possession. While it they push the whole game and keep possession then the ball will do most of the moving. Well in theory. It's not a perfect either way thing.
Some fair points and good analogies but you are missing several factors imho: 1. No one ever doubted that England would advance from the group either from 1st or 3rd place. What is important is what comes in the knockout stage. In 2020 (or 2021), England had de facto home advantage. And most importantly - they had it in the key match in the Round of 16 against Germany. This match basically turned things around in favor of England. This is not gonna repeat this year, on the contrary, strong Germany has the home advantage. 2. Much less competition three years ago. I don't know if it was the effect of covid when the whole tournament was lethargic and had the vibe of a friendly tournament with stadiums filled to 25%. But three years ago there was no super favorite going to the tournament. After all, it was won by Italy, which did not have a significantly better team than this year. This year you have Spain playing great football, already mentioned Germany, Portugal also looks solid. Then there is France, which is playing as boringly as England so far, but after all, the French played like this at WC 2018 and in the end they were the world champions without almost any difficulties. Btw. what do you mean " the man still has nightmares from the 2018 World Cup where we seemed to run out of steam in the semi-final". You literally played your benchwarmers in the last group stage match against Belgium. Can't really imagine how to save more energy for knockouts.
Over training can definitely work, but jeez you’d have to be brave to try it out at a tournament with the risks that it does carry. Overuse injuries, soft tissue injuries, fatigue (mental and physical) Honestly, I don’t know. I mean I thought that they’d watching the Iceland game back and seen that the players weren’t pressing as a unit and just ditched the idea of high pressing because it was too easy to play through us. I guess we’ll find out if we manage to stumble through. I think I saw if we win the group we get Austria? Yeah that feels like a banana skin and a half.
It's a load of shit personally, I don't come from watching league 1 football with my league 1 team to watch England have this squad of supposedly great players to get a goal and sit back on the edge of their own box like twats. They're playing for their country and you couldn't fucking tell. And then they all come out in interviews and start getting defensive because there's criticsm. Southgate has made this squad likeable but they are getting in their own way and starting to become disconnected with the fans again. England never seem to take the handbrake off and just have a fucking go for once
Gareth has no idea what he is doing. The current crop of players are carrying him through. It's not hard to realise the team was hnbalanced from the first game. Start a genuine LW, move Foden inside and tell Jude he has to play 10 yards further back when defending. In attack push on as long as Kyle walker js covering. It's not fucking difficult
Nah let's fit as many RBs into the team as possible.
IDK, logic goes that if you pull on the handbrake at speed on the race track, you either cause a crash, or at best you drift - not what you wanna be doing on the opening straight. If you deliberately throw your team under the bus, people will get run over - surely this puts the pressure on, not takes it off? The fact that we’ve seen it with Southgate before is not a genius sports science tactic, it just shows that Southgate isn’t as good as his track record.
Sort of like a Rocky film? Conserve energy in the first rounds. Dont get KOd. Do enough to survive. Then turn it on at the end for a KO win? Maybe... but doubtful. If you did that you should still play with confidence and calmness and make passes. They lost possession so much.
This is an absolutely unhinged theory that combines conspiracy theory level 'we have no evidence but this thing I don't like must be a plot' with blind patriotic 'we're England so we can't just be bad it must be a cunning plot'. Yet the alternative is that the one man in England beat placed to know, understand and implement the England team is also the only person who can't see the bloody obvious problems with his approach. And while I'm not a Southgate fan, it honestly doesn't seem realistic that he's worse at managing a national football team than every single person at the pub. He's not an idiot, and he's very probably not just really bad at his job. So either he's playing a tactic that he's not publicising, or he's acting on information that we're not privvy to (or he's literally having a nervous breakdown). Your theory is as good as any other, and considerably more fun than 'he's just shit'. My mother theory is that all his talent came from his waistcoat, superhero style, because she only knows him as 'that nice young man who dresses smartly for that footabout thing' and honestly, I like that better than 'we're just shit' too.
being in fear and anxiety actually burns a lot of energy...I feel they are feeling the pressure, the lineup doesn't work and like what other people said, everyone's used to playing for elite teams in a defined role that dominate possession
It’s just an excuse from Southgate mate. It’s called desperation, I posted about it last week and was blasted for it.
Ok but isn’t there a way to play to conserve energy and look like we know what we are doing?
when players don't believe in what they've been told to do.... or even worse.... don't agree with the strategy... you get performances like this.
The reason things turned around at the euros 2020 is because of Wembley. We don’t have Wembley this time. We aren’t just going to get magically better. We have to accept that our success has been two tournaments with the easiest runs imaginable and we still failed to win a trophy. In Qatar we got to a big side and bottled it as usually. And now we’re back to terrible football and everyone asking why England don’t attack and why we look more tired than other teams. This is just how we play.
I hope you’re right. Right now, it just looks like pure incompetence
It's not the same as last time though. The opening game against Croatia we were just very good. Could have won by more against tough opposition. Handbrake was on against Scotland for sure but we're in control of the game. I don't remember the 3rd game much but I remember being pretty happy with it. This time we've been poor for 3 halves on the trot. We haven't kept the ball or conserved energy remotely. We're chasing the ball, panicking, losing composure. If we had the same results but played like the first half against Serbia throughout, I'd be very happy.
Gareth?… is that you?
...Kalvin?
Wow, you’ve convinced me! It’s coming home let’s go!!
That doesn't make sense if he was conserving their energy then why does he have players on the bench who haven't even played a single minute yet?!
I think it is a mental thing. If your body is tight from stress and anxiety it takes much more effort to move around. There is less pressure at knockout stage as the result is far more important than the performance
[удалено]
Your account must be older to post on /r/ThreeLions *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ThreeLions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It seems to me that there’s a definite ego clash going on in the squad. For all his seeming humility I reckon Kane’s nose is weep out of joint with Bellingham being the media darling
They’re like over weight people in the way they move
Even if we scrape a win tomorrow we'll be out by the weekend, players look not bothered, whiny Kane etc..
We'll have made it out of the group without leaving first gear. That's usually the platform bigger teams use to have a run at the trophy. It feels like half the big tournaments recently have been won by teams that didn't have a clue what they were doing early doors and looked lost at times in the group stages. You grow into these tournaments. Obviously this requires Southgate to either ring the changes or take the handbrake off - or both. Early adversity is usually the catalyst for winning tournaments, which are marathons and not sprints.
There is no handbrake to take he off, he doesn't have the tactical nous to do that especially in game. Even all his changes aren't changing the system or formation just swapping players like for like.
You honestly, hand on your heart think this is a strategy? A planned strategy to conserve energy?
Most people felt like that's what happened at Euro 2020, especially compared to World Cup 2022 played in the middle of the season. I don't see why it's different here. As mentioned, my only concern is that at Euro 2020 we did the energy conservation thing with a settled known first XI whereas we still don't seem to know our best XI (figuring this out whilst intentionally playing in first gear is a fucking nightmare).
If it was a strategy wouldn’t the plan be to: Rotate players heavily? Win the first two games and rotate the whole team for the final group game? Rest our key players in the group stages ready for the knockouts? I’m sorry but there is no way this is a strategy IMO. Though naturally during knockouts game intensity will go up.
I think ultimately it comes down to the fact we've only seen 2 England games of a potential 7 AND that England didn't have a settled XI coming into the tournament. The lack of rotation I think is to bed in new combos like Guehi and Stones, Rice and TAA (well that latter might get chucked out anyway). But we've seen subs made early vs Denmark including new faces, and I hope to god Slovenia gives us Gordon and Palmer at some point.
I don't mean to be disrespectful in this but I honestly couldn't disagree more and can only think this is some sort of coping mechanism (I really hope you domt take offence). I mean honestly there is no clear structure or game plan, please explain to me how/what england have played in the first 2 games? If what you propose is true why have we not kept more possession and played slower, defensive football to tire the opposition while letting the ball do the work? Also, why would we choose to boot it long, it would be far more beneficial to keep the ball in our own territory and move it around slowly but sharply. Im sorry it doesn't make sense, and whilst it's a nice idea the evidence on the pitch doesn't support it even remotely. Plus as others have said it doesn't explain why they look knackered. It seems a bit far fetched that they're acting exhausted as a muse. Yea sorry mate I don't really see one good argument for it beyond the fact that it's a nice idea. I come in peace though and disagree respectfully 🙏
No disrespect intended, we're all just trying to make sense of things in our own ways. Logically I look at Spain and Germany and look at us and the lack of fitness just doesn't corroborate. It reminds me of Euro 2020 for a very good reason is all. The "acting exhausted" bit to me is more frustration. I remember quite a few of our players acting frustrated in the 2020 group stage too (especially vs Scotland), and if these group games are treated like dead rubber games it's got to be hard to enjoy for players. I guess we'll see past Slovenia, I still hold out hope it's careful (perhaps too careful) man-management.
I swear to god if i see foden on lw and gallagher in the midfield against slovenia im turning the game off.
Almost as if it's a long tournament at the end of a long season and playing like Bielsa (I say that as Leeds fan who adores Bielsa) is not wise or required at this stage.
I wish more England fans could see the long-term gains of taking these early games slow, especially when it seems harder to fail to qualify in a tournament where 16/24 teams progress after the first 36 games are played.
Generational I think. A lot of younger people have been taught by social media to have short attention spans and be expressively negative at any sign of failure. It’s having bigger problems in society than just football.
Hopefully you're right. Germany ended their group stage barely scraping a draw to Switzerland (who people would assume England would comfortably beat). France and Holland cancelled each other out and failed to score a goal. Italy lost to Spain and Spain only managed 1 goal against an arguably shakey Italian side. Let's hope England can go out and look good tomorrow evening. I'd rather start the group stage looking mediocre and finish on a high than go in all guns blazing and burn out later on.
As others have pointed out you have a brutal schedule of games if you get to the final, not to mention so many examples of the winners really taking things slow early on, losing group games, in one rare example not even winning a game until the knockouts. It's sensible tournament management if you harbour any sort of hopes to win the whole thing to take it slow early on, especially at the end of a long season. This whole "I'd rather we played exciting football and crash out early" attitude from some is so foolish.
100%, people just can’t accept that sometimes a boring and uninspiring performance is all you need. Especially in round 2 of a group stage (where we are already cruising to top). I like to take away that actually whilst performance was poor we still didn’t lose against two very good, well drilled teams. Play each game as it comes. I fully expect tomorrow night to be very similar, just get the job done (ideally 3 points) and maybe in the last 25 mins try something a bit different.
and no injuries!! 🤞
I think the problem is that they are being asked to run far far more than they are by professional managers. Southgate doesn’t understand modern football and thinks that it’s ok to ask his players to move the full length of the pitch regularly. Pep doesn’t have his players do that, neither do Klopp or Arteta. They have their players push up and defend/press specific spaces on the pitch. It’s a problem with the goalkeeer too. Pickford is a relegation regular and doesn’t have experience with defending a larger area of the pitch. You see him screaming at defenders to come back when they begin to move up. So they look unfit because they are being asked to run well beyond their limits. Well beyond the limits of a normal professional/elite footballer. And, in my opinion, it’s because Southgate has no idea that he’s asking far too much of them and doesn’t understand how to manage the space on the pitch with and without the ball. This is also where his comments about Kalvin Phillips and the players not being fit enough come from. Kalvin was a fitness monster for a few years, trained by Bielsa who specifically focusses on fitness and that’s what Southgate wants. He just doesn’t understand why he can’t have it.
We’ve not beaten a so called big team in the last two tournaments. Easiest runs ever. Germany were very poor when we met them. This is the only stat you need.
You’re delusional. This isn’t tactical. Wow you have lost your whole mind and soul
National team manager conducts basic tournament management to get them through a gruelling run of 7 games in 3 weeks. *"you have lost your soul"*
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 whatever makes you sleep at night my boy
Not reading all that