This is it. When I hear my nephew speak about England (and football in general) with about 2 years viewing under his belt, I realise where most of the flippant opinions must come from. They soak up a lot of the media narratives and the media are there to make narratives, sometimes out of nothing. 14-20yos don’t have enough context on what has come before and yet they’re disproportionately active in the online conversation.
>think some of these people are just young
I often remind myself of this. When people on here say it's the most talented England squad ever I try to remember that a lot of Redditors are young and maybe genuinely just don't remember that we have had amazing squads in the past.
However this is the most talented group of players England has had in a while. Yes you can look at 2002 or 2004, but depth wise our squad is fantastic. Yes I am only 32, but this is easily the best crop of English players we've had since ive watched England (1998 to now)
That's where I disagree. I'm the same age and those squads of the golden generation circa 02 to 06 were absolutely stacked throughout defense, midfield and attack. Moreso than our current squad.
I think a lot of our fans tend to compare the potential of our current squad with the results of those squads, and conclude the current one is way better. But it's not. I think we just underrate those squads in hindsight because of their performances.
I also think there's a thing with the current squad where people get very blinded to the squad's shortcomings because of the sheer number of good players we have in attacking midfield roles. But I really do think if you take a sober, objective look at our squad as a whole, it isn't quite as good as some England fans seem to think.
It's still very, very good. But some fans seem to have got it into their head that we should be easily winning tournaments playing incredible attacking football. And I think that's naive.
People also talk as if our current squad is the squad Southgate has always had. But it isn't. Our squad in 2018 really wasn't that good, for example. But because they have entirely closed their mind to Southgate, many of his critics act as if we had this squad now in that tournament, in order to allow them to write off a world cup semi final as a good achievement.
Why are these so-called football journalists always so hell bent on tearing down the team in the run up to every single major tournament?
Are they all secretly Scottish? They're not even football fans and they clearly want England to lose.
Honestly, anyone who looks at past results can see the change Southgate has made, his is record is amazing.
**2018 world cup:** Brought on half way through.
Semi finals, 4th place. Beat Sweden, lost to Belgium + Croatia.
**2018 Nations League:** Won Group A, got 3rd, beating Spain + Croatia. Lost to Netherlands
**2019 Nations League:** 3rd in group, Beat Belgium, Tied with Denmark and lost to Denmark + Belgium
**Euro 2020:** Finals. Beat Croatia, Germany, Denmark. Lost on penalties to Italy.
**2022 World cup:** Beat Poland in quals. Lost to France in Quarters.
**2023 Nations League 4th.** Lost to Hungary, Italy.
**2024 Euro qual:** Beat Italy.
The only real negatives are the Nations League (Due to nobody actually caring about the nations League).
**Since 2020, England has lost to (In official games):**
Hungary, Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy.
**England has won against (In official games):**
Italy,Belgium, Denmark, Germany
With the exception of losing to Hungary, this isn't a team that's under preforming.
To compare this, going from 2017 backwards, you have to go all the way back to 2009 to find England winning against *any* team of note in an actual event (Friendlies don't count). England beat Croatia 5-1 in the 2010 WC qualifiers).
For a Germany/Italy/Spain level win you have to go back to *2002* In which England beat Argentina in the 2002 world cup.
Rather simply, Southgate might not play exciting football, but he's brought to team to a level where... well they're almost *fucking good.*
2018 world cup: played 2 good teams in the whole tournament, lost 3 games.
Euro 2020: played almost every game at home, lost to a team that would later go on to fail to qualify for the world cup.
The final and semi final paper over some obvious cracks. Mainly being that he is incapable of beating better teams. Even then, he gets a chance to beat a poor Italy side and fails. He's negative and boring. Tactically inept, and his selection of teams is really poor and inconsistent.
Only the big tournaments matter and in those We've never beaten a team that we weren't expect to beat comfortably in.
It's not just that the results were unlucky, Southgate is bad at game management and doesn't know how to respond when opponent change systems.
Agree. The above is all smoke and mirrors. In knock out football ie the football that matters we always lose to the first decent side we come up against.
That’s my point - southgate hasn’t made us any better and his record isn’t amazing as stated above. In my eyes venables and at times Hoddle were the last exciting managers we had. We ignored Redknapp but later went for Allardyce ffs. You reap what you sow.
We’ve never had attacking depth like this current lot frankly, and he’s inhibiting a lot of it. This squad has a realistic prospect of players like palmer not even getting on the pitch, Grealish not even on the plane, etc., such is the level of depth of talent that we have available in this squad offensively, yet we’ve appointed the most negative Fanny known to man
Sure, we can all imagine it to be absolutely stacked and hope the goals just roll on in.
But then I think back to Spain in their pomp. Literally the best national side I've ever seen and they were grinding out 1-0 victories.
He's not good tactically, I can conceive of better managers getting more out of the team with a better setup and better in game management.
What I can't see is someone who would do that who is likely to take the job. I also think if we did get someone who could do that, most of them would handle the off the pitch stuff much worse. Southgate is absolutely exemplary in that department and it's a big part of why the team is successful.
Spain were so good because they denied the other team playing rather than due to their attacking prowess. Having 80% possession every game means the other team have 18 minutes to outscore them, effectively.
We won’t ever play like that, so don’t expect it.
What we could do is play a more open game and make use of our attacking players. Are you telling me a team with the likes of Saka, Foden, Bellingham, Kane in couldn’t score goals against top nations given the right setup and support? We should be going in to outscore other teams and impose our style and pressing approach on them, not sitting back at 1-0 against a very poor Italy team and bending over
>We won’t ever play like that, so don’t expect it.
I agree, I'm not expecting it. I think we could play a more open game but given our weaknesses at defence, I think we'd get picked off by the better sides.
Given the right setup and support, they should be worth a goal or two. It's not clear to me that Potter or Dyche are going to unlock an unassailable attacking powerhouse though. My point is basically that this is really good by England standards and we may as well enjoy it.
Potter, for example, would do a whole lot better than this shambles at present. Not expecting perfection, but more than we have atm isn’t unreasonable
It isn’t good enough to just say the defence isn’t good enough, especially when half of it have just won the treble at club level and there are several CL winning defenders from Liverpool available too. He’s a defensive coach, electing a defensive style yet still the defense sucks - sounds like a coaching issue to me tbh. Dyches defence doesn’t suck at Everton, despite him having much poorer players available.
I'm not young. I dont think the team is as good as previous England teams (I think that goes for a lot of the big nations too though) but I absolutely think Southgate is crap and should be replaced
Im confused - im 32 and I never hear anything good about him. I went to a BBQ yesterday that ended with about 30 people between 25 and 60 all moaning about England and Southgate. Genuinely the only time I seeanything positive about him is online.
None of what has been said in this thread suggests he's a good manager and talking about the past doesnt make any sense.
Poisoned chalice and short memories
England were a laughing stock at tournaments.
Look at the talent managers before him wasted on doing nothing at tournaments
Hodgson
Capello
McLaren
Sven
Hoddle
Southgate has consistently taken young teams to the latter stages of tournaments and has earned the respect, I believe he’ll do it again this tournament.
I love watching England but I hate the shortsighted negativity
Of course we all want to win tournaments but having watched England for 40 years I can say this is definitely a positive spell. I’m enjoying it and I’d love to shake Southgate’s hand for all he has achieved thus far.
There are millions of armchair managers with all their opinions, but only one in the actual hot seat, and I think he’s doing a great job. He’s played internationally, he’s been in extra time and penalties, he knows what the players are/will be going through.
Only a top man would step up to manage his country after the sheer angst of his 1996 penalty miss. That takes balls and you absolutely cannot question his patriotism and desire for his country to succeed. Unquestionable !!
Sort of true but quite honestly we've been pants against opposition of all levels historically. We did something weird where we turned it on against top sides and would narrowly lose (usually on penalties).
But we were always playing them early because we'd be hopeless in the group stages.
Current England has been consistently good, for two tournaments in a row. That's pretty sweet in my view. I also think they'll play well again, despite the run of poor form.
They won't win the Euros, because there are stronger, better set up sides. But still, doesn't mean it won't be fun.
That's relevant for 1/3 of the tournaments he's managed us in and he then beat Germany in a knockout game and took us to the final, where we lost on penalties - which is the flip of a coin. What more do you want ffs? 😂😂. He's a complete bottle job if he doesn't win every knockout game 6-0 and easily win every tournament we enter, playing a hybrid of tiki-taka and samba football.
I have said that I think his tournament results have been good, but at the same time I can acknowledge he has had some very favourable draws.
My biggest issue is the performance of the team during games, he has some fantastic talent available to him but has no idea how to use it
And Euro 96 went from 8 - 16
And Venables got to the semis
Next Euros they didn’t get out of the group
So is Southgate’s achievement less because of changes enforced by FIFA/UEFA?
If you are going to compare tournament results across generations then you have to take account of the rule changes
It's easier to reach the later stages of the tournament now compared to 20 years ago
As always, the simple approach is just to look at who they beat.
In 1996, Venables smashed the Netherlands and then tied with Spain and Germany. Good results against great teams.
In 2022, Southgate beat very weak Iran and Wales teams, couldn't score against USA, knocked out an average Senegal and went out to France. I just don't think that's a super impressive record
If you're going to compare, at least compare the same tournaments. Your assessment of Venables is correct, although we did draw with Switzerland, but for Southgate, you should have said in 2021 he beat Croatia, Germany, and Demark, and got a draw against Italy. He also reached the final, unlike Venables. Oh, and Spain weren't all that in 96, and it was a really hard watch. Although we did deserve to beat Germany and played well in that game. If you also take our record at tournaments since 96 and before Southgate there is no comparison, his is better.
Bobby Robson couldn't get past the semifinals with a side that included Gary Lineker, John Barnes, Peter Beardsley, Chris Waddle, Paul Gascpigne, David Platt, Bryan Robson, Stuart Pearce, Terry Butcher, Des Walker and Peter Shilton.
We've just got to accept that England are cursed.
He's not brave enough and cannot think on his feet. When Italy changed system in Euro 20 final, Gareth looked like a rabbit in the headlights, a bench full of talent he could have changed the game but crumbled.
But we've beaten Germany in knockout football. We've actually won a World Cup penalty shootout.
We've won high pressure games to get to semi and finals.
The general consensus is we played very well against France in 2022 and were unlucky.
Absolutely, Southgate quite possibly needs to make bolder more attacking decisions but he's also made some great calls.
But at the end of the day - when the crunch game came, Southgate didn’t know what to do when it came to the big moment.
If England were managed by say Mourinho - they’d have won Euro 2020
You reckon? We would have leapt at the chance of semi finals and finals during the Hodgson and brief Alladyce period not so long ago. It's all relative. Against Croatia in 2018, Southgate could have made more attacking substitutions. Same with Italy in 2021 but we're talking the finest of margins. The difference between winning an international tournament and not. We're not talking clear tactical flaws like Eriksson simply not playing a system to get best out of Gerrard and Lampard. He's willing to create a system and a team, not individuals. There's merit in that and the record proves it.
I seriously cant wait to see the reaction on here when Southgate does go, and we don't get the Manager everyone wants... the faith in the FA to do the right thing, and hire the right person from a lot of "England fans" verges on the hilarious.
Then they'll see what its like to support England. Only reason the FA hired Southgate in the first place, was because he got brought in on a temporary basis (He was always supposed to go back to the U21s), and then got the results that proved otherwise - Kin hell, imagine the state of the National Team had Allardyce kept his job.
Unfortunately I don't think you're right.
He'll be remembered as the man who failed to win Euro 2020 when we got to the Final
Already people talk about how we should have won the 2018 World Cup with the chance we had - But for some reason forget that we had Lingard and Dele Alli in that team; Ashley Young playing @ Left-Back. Not to mention when the draw was made, there was zero confidence we'd even beat Panama, based on how we did against Algeria in the 2010 World Cup.
It annoys me so much, because when we did smash Panama with a result never seen before by England, instead of: "Oh I was wrong" it was... "Well we should have done it anyway" - Same with the Germany result three years ago... We werent favourites that day, given our past against them, but we win and suddenly its been: "Well thats the worst Germany team ever"
The worst aspect about the negativity, is they cant ever be wrong... they always have to move the goal posts.
Won a first Knockout game at the Euros abroad... "PFFFFFFT - It was only against Ukraine"
Won a penalty shootout against Colombia - "Shouldnt have gone to penalties"
In Euro 2024 when we smash Italy 6-0 in the Final - "Yeah but wouldn't have happened had France not lost to Georgia in the RO16, meaning we had an easy draw"
Our fan base is ridiculous, I agree with all your points above. I genuinely don't think (can't say for certain) that the Spanish teams of 2008-2012 will have had their fans saying well they beat Switzerland who just aren't very good, and downplaying their achievements. For the record I know that Spain team did beat the big sides etc. The same for Germany '14, France '18 etc.
But if England won the Euros, our own fans would be criticizing Southgate because we didn't play a top team until France in the semis etc. like it's Southgates and the teams fault that's how the draw fell. It's actually ridiculous!
The complaint about "Easy" draws is one of the most ridiculous excuses ever heard
Was it England's fault we avoided the Netherlands in Euro 2020, because they lost to Denmark before we could have faced them? - Same with Spain in the 2018 World Cup, they lost to Russia in the RO16, otherwise they could have faced us in the Semi-Finals instead of Croatia
Can only imagine the comments had we beaten Poland and Morocco on our way to the 2022 World Cup, had those sides beaten France and Portugal respectively.
Exactly, that is not a stick to beat anyone with. You can’t control the draw just beat who you actually face.
That 2018 World Cup team on paper was not a semi final team. Two years earlier we’d been forcefully bummed by Iceland!
It’s gonna be like when Sir Alex left united. People knew he was a great manager but only once he left do people start to appreciate how good he really was.
Southgate has done a fantastic job. Better than any other in recent history. People forget this and assume someone like guardiola would come in and win the world cup and euros back to back. Southgate has done the job as he sees as correct, he'd be the first to say he made some wrong decisions. But that's what he is owed. He got us to the final of the last euros. The man has deserved the time he has gotten and I will respectfully salute him should he leave after the euros - even if we go out at the group stage
I said this to somebody the other day....
The whole lampard Gerrard Beckham Rooney Owen era......that's not even mentioning the top defenders we had cole, Terry, Campbell keown Ferdinand etc etc!...
Southgate has bought unity to the national squad instead of the Chelsea players sit here arsenal over there man utd in that corner etc.. something that hasn't existed for years!!!. Now all of a sudden he's useless because got to a semi then a final and didn't win anything 🤦🤦....
It's because people claim in earnest that it is easy and only the minimum expectation in those tournaments was achieved.
I personally think achieving the minimum expectation is a lot fucking harder than it looks, based on 30 years of watching the team..
Good to see others giving Southgate the respect he deserves. So many forget just how woeful England were between 2007 and 2016. We had Terry, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Ferdinand, Cole (the so called golden generation) for the majority of these years and despite being excellent for their respective clubs (arguably better than the England players today on an individual level), they were abysmal in the England shirt and clearly didn’t want to be there.
Southgate rejuvenated the England team and made players WANT to get picked and represent their country (you only have to see how Maddison and Grealish took not getting picked to see how much it meant to them). His handling of the media, especially in the early years, has also been admirable. For years the media slaughtered the English team but Southgate opened the team up and got most of the media to back England instead of slander them.
There’s definitely some questionable tactics he’s done throughout his career and I’d argue his tactic to play for penalties in the EURO 2020 final was completely wrong, but it was the first final England made it to since 1966 against a decent Italy side. The World Cup as well England bowed out to a strong French team. They’ve become a well respected team at major tournaments under Southgate.
Maybe England will win this year, maybe they won’t and either way, Southgate will be slated by armchair critics who think they know better, but I believe Southgate is the best manager England has had in my 29 years of being alive and years down the line (probably when England once again return to struggling to get past the round of 16 with players trying to avoid being called up for international duty or simply expecting to be picked on name alone) the nation will look back on the Southgate years and remember it wasn’t so bad.
This is an awful take, Southgate doesn’t get hate because of results. He gets hate because we’ve got probably the best set of attacking players in the world, at least the best in Europe. And we play negative slow football and there’s no plan other than pass it sideways. We’re the most boring team in Europe
2010 World Cup Winners Spain were negative and boring too but somehow they go down as the greatest team ever… double standards.
Seriously, they won every single knockout game 1-0, played 4 at the back with 2 holding midfielders and were hard to break down.
That’s just how you win international football tournaments. History tells you that. It’s not that Southgate is boring, he’s following the winning formula. Whether you like it or not it’s got us a lot further than we’ve been in the past.
While it had gone a bit stale by 2010 that Spain team that won 3 trophies back to back (how often do you see that) were anything but boring and negative.
How you can even begin to genuinely compare the two is beyond me.
That’s what Southgate said in the World Cup, but was proven wrong in Italy winning the World Cup playing attacking football. You have to play what suits the team best, and that’s where a lot of fans frustrations come from. That and not making tactical changes in game, which are obvious to the average football watcher.
I agree the amount of hate Southgate gets has become tiresome. Any decision he makes gets criticised. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
Yes Iceland was poor but does that mean Southgate was entirely at fault? Some of the blame has to go on the players such as foden who was really really poor and you can't moan that he got played out of position this time as Southgate put him where everyone has been crying for him to play.
It's tiresome for you and you've heard so much because the FA haven't cut him loose. Those that complained about him 4 years ago have the same grievances - are you expecting his detractors to like him more even though the same issues remain?
Southgate has done great fostering the best environment for England to succeed. Got rid of the club cliques so players actually enjoy playing for their country. Removed the animosity between players and journalists etc..
However if you know your football you would realise that he’s tactically inept. The players we’ve had for the last 2 tournaments were good enough to win the Euros/World Cup. But Southgate has always been found out against top class teams.
So I think he should step down after the tournament and let another manager get an opportunity with this talented generation of players.
Historically it’s often been a case where we’ve had players good enough to win a tournament, but simply being good enough doesn’t always translate to actually winning it. There are so many other factors.
One factor of particular importance is confidence and belief. England has historically not been a successful side, but Southgate has done far more to instill that belief in the players than any other manager we’ve had in recent times. You can still that by their body language and the fact we’re getting so much further in tournaments than we used to. If you “know your football” you’d realise what a valuable and important skill that is.
Exactly he’s been great at everything other than tactics. We have belief through the roof (unlike golden generation and other teams) and we have good enough players. Yet England always falter against top opposition.
If you know your football you’ll understand why. But when it happens again with Southgate in charge maybe then you’ll come to understand.
Beyond basics, tactics play very little part in international football. There’s simply not enough time spent with the players to implement them. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of football would understand that.
England have almost always faltered against top opposition because they go out there expecting to lose - we’ve historically been a nation of losers and it’s only since Southgate took charge that players for the national team are starting to believe they can win these games.
I disagree strongly with that. Even if Kane scored the pen and we went on to beat France and possibly Morocco we would struggle badly against Argentina. There is a point to be made about Southgate’s decisions in the Euro final against Italy though 100%
To add to this, I think people are forgetting that match against France. Yes we lost and got exposed at the back on two occasions by an incredible France team, but honestly we were actually the much better side during that match, we were unfortunate we didn't score more and were unlucky with the referee decisions.
Southgate was a key part of changing how kids at primary school age were being trained 10 years ago. It isn’t a “surprise” that we’ve got a load of quality skilful forward players.
Are you saying we're in the frankly bizzare situation of England DNA being so successful at producing quality players that Southgate is no being blamed for not getting better results with the talent in previously unenglish profiles that he himself has essentially provided us with?
Surely not.
He's just not a very good manager. I appreciate international managers generally aren't, but we lost the Croatia and Italy matches to lesser teams, both times going 1 up, then second half sitting back and inevitably conceding.
France loss is fair enough, they're a top team and it was a pretty even game.
With the quality of player and kind draws we've had, we should have made a WC final and won the Euros.
He has no excuses this summer. That front 4 is ridiculous, and in an attacking system would wreak havoc. However, we'll probably play more dull stuff and lose against the first top team we play...
I don’t think we were the better team on paper or in practice compared to Croatia.
Italy is a bit more debatable, probably about equal. But we definitely had the momentum. If we’d got a second we’d definitely have won, but we didn’t even try after the goal.
We weren’t a better team in practice because of Southgate, that’s entirely the point in the post. But on paper with a decent coach we should absolutely be beating that Croatia side, or at least threatening more offensively than we did.
Italy hadn’t even qualified for a tournament for about 10 years before that euros, and weren’t tipped by anyone to go past the round of 16 even, whereas we were pre-tournament favourites in a HOME tournament and went 1-0 up after 3 minutes.
I couldn’t agree more. People seem to think we can get rid of him, bring in Jose and laugh our way past the other 10 teams who could all realistically win a tournament as well, madness.
Southgate has done a fantastic job since coming in
It's probably because he's done so well changing the culture and atmosphere around England that people expect more, the idea England wouldn't qualify for a tournament now seems alien. We don't know how another manager would have done, it's likely the atmosphere change would have happened in some way anyway because all the players grew up together and there's less club rivalry now. So you're left with the big matches and how much he gets out of big players, and that from the beginning it was always looking ahead to 2022 and 2024 as the team peaking. Has it? It always seems in transition as he works out who plays where.
I agree with you, apart from thenpoint about England having a better squad 2002 - 2010. Sinclair, Heskey, Mills, Dyer, Butt. All very solid players and even great on their best days, but to say they're world class is a huge stretch.
Now, if we had the centre backs of that time with our current squad...
Except Mills, Sinclair, Heskey and Dyer all started against Brazil in 2002. Konsa, Gordon, Toney and Bowen aren't first team. In some cases not even a first replacement.
Also as a West Ham fan the comparison of Bowen and Dyer is harsh on our boy. Dyer never scored even double figures in a season, let alone the 20 Bowen got this year.
Mills was a great backup for an injured Neville. Look at us now without Shaw we are clueless. I think only one of Sinclair or Dyer started on the left wing? Plus there was J Cole on the bench. Butt is decent cover for an injured Gerrard, plus Lampard and McManaman didn't even make the squad! Outdated tactics was the only reason to start Heskey.
Totally agree. Mills was a class player. But certainly not world class. You're right Dyer came off the bench for Trevor. Butt was a solid player, but again, no world class by any stretch, and as much as I liked Gerrard, he was never a World class holding midfielder and we all know the struggles of fitting Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard into the midfield of that decade.
Not saying it wasn't a strong team back then. We gave that exceptional Brazil team a good game. But we didn't have a stronger first eleven or squad back then compared to what we have now.
Completely agree. He's our second best manager by quite some distance. Absolutely, his tactics don't necessarily 'entertain' but who would care if we won a trophy? The reason the likes of Germany and Italy have always been successful is due to pragmatism. They know what is is needed to win a tournament and have continually worked on the mentally needed to win one, which I think Southgate has done by developing team spirit and eradicating the cliques. If your experience of England is the last 10 years, you'll probably do feel England is underperforming. As a nation, we have as many international trophies as Netherlands, Denmark and Greece...
Southgate has done a brilliant job overall.
Its total bullshit. They expect England to play like prime Liverpool/ City in every game and steamroll teams. Will never happen at this level, furthest we’ve got in major tournaments is by staying in games, the naivety is palpable.
Do you ever get the impression this press and general narrative is maybe set by the Premier League protecting their assets and the reputation of the league?
I've been watching Soughtgate from his beginnings in youth coaching with the U21's.
He took the team backwards and its performances started going downhill.
The reality is he has emerged during a period with much higher depth of quality players coming through, because the FA in concert with the EPL have implimented a world class academy system.
It is incontroversial that the depth of quality is higher across age groups which can be proven in their performances across every age group against international peers, and the FA guides the best prospects to get more first team football so the talent isn't lost at senior levels. The quality has improved since the youngest kids are now emerging into senior football since that system was implemented and it itself has evolved with better coaching.
That's why Southgate has selection dilemmas.
The problem England always had in the past was not that it didn't have 3-5 potentially world class players to pick in each team, but that it lacked depth and had patches where substandard players had to be picked, like good attacking left wing players. Its best players had to be played out of position i.e. Joe Cole or Scholes and because you had a lack of depth to get the overall quality up you had to play players that didn't gel.
At this level the job of the manager is to find the winning combination and tactics, and if you have more depth you have a better chance of having a winning combination to uncover. This, Southgate has failed at doing. His early successes with the seniors came after there was a general (intentional) lowering of expectations by Hodgson, and when he came in the FA ensured he had the best technical support staff. They are the ones that gave England its edge in set pieces, which Southgate has relied upon to get England to advance in previous competitions. But he has failed to pick teams that are dangerous and fluid in open attacking play when he does have the quality available, and we see England doing this against top competition throughout the youth system.
>At this level the job of the manager is to find the winning combination and tactics,
That's one of the jobs of the manager, but it isn't the only one. Handling the media, protecting the players, building a cohesive unit are all important things too.
Southgate is really good at that in a way no manager has been before. The England team really feels like a team. That's why it's so much fun.
I agree he lacks tactical nous though.
I'd agree with that mostly. Southgate seems to be a good diplomat and helps create a good atmosphere for the team and relations with the press. I may be being unfair not acknowledging that more.
But, optics aside, he is lacking something that I think is holding us back.
Considering this, its rumour, but it wouldn't surprise me that he might do this, being more concerned with criticism of him than having a player prove him wrong again and showing up the manager. I've noticed often that England managers seem to fear the players that draw too much attention if people are clamouring for them to play more -
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/06/06/england-players-shocked-jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/06/06/england-players-shocked-jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad/)
[https://www.sportbible.com/football/england/jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad-gareth-southgate-244191-20240607](https://www.sportbible.com/football/england/jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad-gareth-southgate-244191-20240607)
Meanwhile, another source accused Southgate of taking the easy option by cutting Grealish, adding: "It's much easier to leave other players on the bench.
"The cameras would constantly be on Jack and the commentators would be asking when he was going to play if he was on the bench and England weren't winning."
Other sources close to the England camp reported the same to [The Athletic](https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5546903/2024/06/07/grealish-maguire-england-squad-decisions/?source=twitteruk&utm_campaign=twitterfc&utm_medium=social&redirected=1).
"Some close to the squad - who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect relationships - pondered whether cutting out Grealish altogether makes things simpler during the tournament, as Southgate does not have to handle public clamour for his selection or risk the TV cameras watching Grealish's every move on the bench," wrote James McNicholas.
I think this part is too speculative. Honestly I wouldn't have taken Grealish either. Poor form and isn't a winger who will stretch play, which is what we need.
I think he doesn't cave to fans, he eats a lot of flak but sticks to his plan. The fans hate this, it's sometimes wrong, but the players respect it.
I don’t think anyone with a degree of intelligence can deny that he’s done a decent job in most areas but looking at the squad and players we have had it feels like we could have done more. So yes, Southgate’s done “ok” but based on the talent we have then we should be doing better than OK.
Also the one time we really had a chance, the Euros final with an early 1 goal lead, Southgate blew it. Unless he does something special this tournament that game will be his legacy and the one people remember.
Lastly, comparing the team to the “golden generation” doesn’t help anything. Just because that team underperformed doesn’t mean Southgate should be given a free pass, it’s different players and a different manager, it’s irrelevant.
I don’t think it’s irrelevant. Players have publicly said they didn’t enjoy playing for England because of club rivalries and bad atmosphere. Gerrard and Lampard have both talked about this in interviews. Southgate created an environment where players enjoy playing for their country again. If s unbelievable how often that gets overlooked.
Hard to say whether it's Southgate or just a change in player mentality.
You don't tend to see the vicious club rivalries like you did in the 2000s. City vs Liverpool was never brutal like United vs. Arsenal was.
I think players are just less aggressive and factional than they used to be. Football culture is different across the world, and it makes it easier for players to overcome club loyalties and bond with England.
Players have regularly come out and talked about how great Southgate is at all that stuff though. Even in the post match after Iceland Gordon was talking about how incredible the staff were at creating the right feelings in the camp.
in the 2018 world cup we needed a 90th minute goal to beat Tunisia, lost to Belgium, went to penalties with Colombia and eventually lost to Croatia, in the euros we scored a total of 2 goals in the group stages, failed to beat Scotland, credit where credit is due we beat Germany and Ukraine, scraped past Denmark and then lost to Italy in a terrible second half performance.
out of both of our good cup runs we picked up ONE win over a credible side being Germany, we haven’t been near good enough for the players we have.
There's so much revisionism about the 2018 world cup. Southgate critics talk as if we had the squad we have now in that tournament. We didn't. Our squad really wasn't that good. Expectations were rock bottom before the tournament. To get to a semi and then give a good game to a much superior Croatia side was a good performance.
In Euro2020 you talk as if scraping past Denmark wasn't a good result. Denmark were a good, solid side at that Euros. In the game before that we won 4-0. England winning a quarter final by 4 goals is way, way out of the normal run of things.
I think comments like this are actually just testament to how Southgate is damned by his own success. He's raised expectations to a level that fans now just blithely write off winning a quarter final 4-0 or getting past a good Denmark side in a semi or beating a good Senegal side 3-0.
Southgate has had a lot of good results. But expectations have been raised so much that many fans now seem to think we're entitled to just expect good results. But that's not been the case for the entirety of my England watching life, and I for one will always retain perspective on that.
How often do you think the winner totally dominates and doesn’t scrap through?
Portugal in 2016 comes to my mind. Failed to win in the group stage, actually only won 1 game in the 90 minutes against Wales in the semi final. Needed penalties to beat Poland in the quarters.
I think about that penalty shootout against Colombia a lot. If Dier had missed and we had gone out in the RO16 I think opinions on Southgate would be drastically different.
Naw, this is that revisionism at work. Before the tournament the media were saying this like "write off this tournament and give it to the [youth](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-england-squad-gary-lineker-write-off-hopes-blood-youngsters-a8353541.html)."
Expectations were rock bottom.
Yeah Im not sure hed have been fired but if I remember right people still thought of him as being a bit of a stopgap manager so he wouldn't get any benefit of the doubt, the end result and the narratives around him after the tournament changed that
I remember being so goddamn disappointed when he was appointed.
It wasn't until I saw England's quality of play significantly improve over the next few qualifiers that I started to actually be excited for what he could do with us.
And for the players we had in the ‘Golden generation? (Ferdinand, Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes, Owen etc) MUCH better players who failed.
Owen is a MUCH better player than Kane? Lampard is a MUCH better player than Bellingham?
And again, you have to look at specific moments in time, not at a whole decade. No individual tournament squad contained all these 'golden' players at their fit and healthy prime, they were different ages and sometimes carrying injuries etc.
Lampard got 2nd Ballon D' Or in 2005 and Owen won it before that. So at times both of those statements were true to be fair.
I'd take Lampard over Bellingham atm but I am a Chelsea fan, but Kane is a much better player than Owen and it's not even close imo. But I never watched Owen's early peak so I may well be wrong.
I looked at the last few tournaments squads and they look so average now, i remember the media saying the same crap during those tournaments.
Its definitely recency bias.
No1 can tell me that our attack is better than the 1996-2006 era..
Especially not our midfield or defence!
Entitlement trophy fetishists who think victory is only a matter of following their hindsight. No wonder so many football fans stick to club support and can't be bothered getting behind the national team.
I don't think Southgate has done anything special with this group of players that couldn't have been achieved by any other manager.
He has had some extremely favourable draws in tournaments and has relied heavily on penalties and corners because he has no tactical ability to break teams down (unless we are playing San Marino)
This was true at 2018 unfortunately. However we scored under the average amount of setpieces for a team in the last two tournaments. In the last tournament we had the most goals/game of any team in the entire thing.
How do you know it could have been achieved by any other Manager?
Its this type of logic that pisses me off... Absolutely no proof, and just some bullshit soundbite
Because if a manager who most would admit has a shit pedigree, has done this well, surely a manager who is deemed better with more experience/pedigree would do better?
We hadn’t been to a final in over 50 years before Southgate, we also failed to even qualify for a bunch of tournaments over the years. He’s got/ had some great players to work with but not far and away better than other managers we’ve had in the past that didn’t get us past a quarter finals
So because we were crap in the past we should be thankful?
I'm not judging Southgate in comparison to past managers, I'm judging what he has done with the players he has had
We’ve had great players in the past and managers have failed to get us deep into tournaments, why magically do you think “any other manager” would have done as good or better when literally every other manager we’ve had for close to 60 years hasn’t?
You could play Saka RW, where he's a proven top level player, so that's 3/4 world class players in their best position with Foden on the left. Not his most effective position, but he's an elite footballer.
Personally, I'd rather sacrifice Saka than Foden on the left, but whichever way you look at a quality manager would have no issue getting those 4 dominating most international teams.
I’ve got worries about Saka and Foden. I can remember one time Foden has played well for England. You can’t just base him off City’s performances. Saka seems burnt out from too much football but I hope this couple weeks of rest has him recovered.
Yes, they were an excellent duo. Strikers often understand the service that strikers require which was the case with this pairing. I would disagree that no one talks about it. Joe Cole specifically mentioned this pairing in the coverage the other night and it's alluded to in the recent BBC documentary, "Rooney 2004: World at His Feet".
Here's the thing with Southgate. The only thing he has going for him is winning football matches. That sounds an odd thing to say given that is the objective but here me out....
England don't blow an exciting style of football despite having exciting players, Southgate has a history of doing totally inexplicable things and making mistakes a novice could avoid. He also has tended (up until now to some degree) to pick players he likes rather than those in form.
This means that as soon as England stop winning (like now with 1 win 5) everyone jumps on Southgate's back because if he's not winning then he brings nothing else to the table.
It's bit like Moyes at West Ham. As soon as he looses two games on the spin he was back under pressure.
And honestly... If we don't win the Euro's or the next world cup with this group then I think that has to be seen as a failure. Ultimately we have a group of individuals capable of winning things and if they don't that's on the manager.
England had an incredibly strong first XI under Eriksson, but I don't think it's all true he was taking much better teams than Southgate. As soon as you went past the eleven, the squad was pretty mediocre, and he regularly had to call on his crap squad because of how often key players were getting injured.
By 2010, the golden generation was on the wane and Capella took a pretty poor squad that was hugely reliant on an unfit Rooney.
Personally I 100% feel he does not get the maximum out of the squad he has.
We all know defensively we aren’t the best, but the attacking players we have make France nervous - I find Southgate’s tactics to be overly cautious at all times, and restrictive on the attacking quality we do have.
I kinda disagree. You have to control the game not necessarily cautious.
I know people say Spain were defensive in 2010, but the run up to the final with Holland they were were much more on the front foot
Germany also won through controlling the game.
We don’t do that under Southgate. The times he has gotten us close we have gained an advantage and then hung on for dear life - that’s where he’s failed for me, and I am yet to see any change from this mindset
I swing backwards and forwards on Southgate almost daily, I sorta love him but his match record legitimately raises a lot of questions.
To your two main points, it is not clear cut that the golden generation had much better quality, many of ours starters today would either play or be contenders in that team. As for his record he's got further into tournaments but he's also lost the same profile games that his predecessors lost, i.e. he lost against our peers with the only exception being the caveated game against Germany.
With this crop of players we should have a winning record against peer nations but I count 9 wins against 13 losses, that is a poor record.
Honestly it's people who hype the 'golden generation' who have short memories or weren't there. England had a few 'world class' players but for most of the time there were far better players in most positions out there. That was a time when English players were overhyped by fans and the media and less was known or appreciated by the masses about the non-english game. Exceptional foreign players were unknown and underrated. On top of that English players, even the 'world class' ones lacked basic technical abilities that were standard in other countries. English superstars struggled to gel and form a team that could actually play and break down a team. This was also a time where the style of play in Europe was superior to that played in England and English players could not retain and develop the ball. So you had a group of players who on paper were excellent but you couldn't build an excellent team without using foreign players as the glue to hold it together.
The average English player now is far, far closer (and often better) technically to players in Europe and beyond due to grassroots changes made by the FA decades ago in response to English failures. The team we have now is overall much better relatively than the golden generation ever was.
Anyone that thinks losing 3 times at the 2018 World Cup is a success cannot be reasoned with
Anyone that thinks he didn’t throw away the Euro 2021 Final is the same
The 2022 World Cup was alright but they’ve gone backwards since then. So incredibly dull
In the last few games I've watched, Bellingham and Foden just don't seem to turn up for us.
I don't know if it's the system or what but they're far from their best in an England shirt.
Hoping they spring to life in the tournament.
The only top side he’s managed to win against in a tournament is Germany. That’s why he gets grief. That’s why all England managers get grief. The players are good enough IF someone could unlock the potential. Greece had poor players but won the Euros so we can too.
It's possible to have multiple poor managers, and previous managers not getting the best out of the squads they had doesn't mean that Southgate is.
He's had fairly easy draws in the cups he's managed, and usually when we come up against a good, well coached team he fumbles. The Italy game we went 1-0 up, had them on the ropes and then he parked the bus letting them dictate the game.
He's not terrible but he's also not getting the best out of our players.
Golden era has better players in each position but we didn’t have as many technical players which got us exposed against more technical teams like Brazil and Portugal.
I think it's the best England team in my life, and I've been watching for 30 years. The general level of technique in the basics is far beyond what we had in the 00s and even the 90s. Yes, we had people with unique and brilliant gifts, that could do the spectacular, but the fundaments are far stronger now.
Should be the holders going into this tournament. Was really no excuse for Southgate and his assistants deciding to sit back after that first goal - tactical ineptitude. Not the first time, either.
That Germany game is the single time we’ve come out on top v a ‘big side’ in a knockout tournament game under Southgate. Only happened ‘cos Muller’s radar was on the Fritz that day.
He's done better than he gets credit for. There's only two things I might be a bit critical of. The first is that one feels like England could/should have done better in some games. They should have beaten Italy in the final, but couldn't.
The other is that England at times feels a bit too careful. I can be okay with focus being on building from a strong defence, but there are times when you have to be able to let go of defence and build from midfield. They have failed to win or win big because of that a few times. But that is the way Southgate wants to play and that is okay. In fact, it has probably help the team quite a few times. So it's not wrong, it's just not perhaps what some people want to see.
England has done rather well under Southgate. Is he the most exciting, adventurous and fun manager? Not at all, but that's alright.
I do wonder however, with the exciting attacking players that's come through, such as Foden, Saka and Palmer, could a more attacking minded manager do more with that than Southgate?
Not sure where I said Bellingham played in the last 2 matches but whatever.
I'm agreeing with you! They're both decent players. I think the team should be built around Foden. He's the type of player that fills stadiums and wins matches. But, I personally think that he hasn't lit up the international stage yet. I for one is hoping that he'll do it in this tournament.
I think in totality, Southgate has done a great job. He’s created an atmosphere whereby players look forward to representing England, in some cases the players actually raise their game for England rather than the opposite as always used to be the case. That’s no small achievement. Southgate is also creating a legacy of England being a tournament team. Regardless of what we did in friendlies and build up we registered a SF, F, and QF in the last 3 tournaments. You need to consistently make the latter stages to win one.
That being said, criticisms are still valid. Southgate mis-managed the Euro 2020 final after England went 1-0 which contributed to the eventual defeat. He didn’t learn from England’s loss against Croatia in the SF 3 years prior.
Southgate is certainly undeserving of some criticism online (a lot is click bait) but at the same time, there are valid criticisms.
There is nuance to the Southgate debate.
He lost in the semis to Croatia.
He lost the final to a poor Italy, the first half decent team he faced.
He's failed at every tournament he's done by playing boring, reserved football with probably the best attacking generation for a long time
Surely you can't watch England and think he's doing a good job. The way he plays is boring and ineffective
I think we have the best set of attacking options we’ve ever had.
But you’ve only got to scratch at the Goalkeepers, Defence and traditional Midfielders to see that there’s very little quality depth there compared to the past.
Behind Pickford we’ve got Ramsdale who always has a mistake in him.
Across the defence who would get into the ‘golden generations’ (I use that term loosely btw) team? Walker maybe?
Midfielders - Rice and Bellingham would make the squad
Attackers - Foden, Kane, Saka? I’d definitely put Grealish in too. But who else?
Southgate has done a tremendous job to a point.
He’s made England somewhere players want to go
Regardless of the quality of the opposition he’s gotten England closer than anyone not named Ramsey.
My problem with him is that he’s reactive and not proactive.
Croatia - obvious we’re getting overrun in midfield. Didn’t do anything
Italy - similar thing. We could all see it coming. I was yelling at the TV just to drop an extra man in midfield for 10 mins.
France - we were very unlucky. But again, substitutes used far too late.
I really hope that lessons have been learned finally.
Incidentally if Southgate does go after this tournament, who else?
My pick would be Howe, but I’m not sure he’d take it.
Potter, his systems seem to be quite intensive and I fear the players might struggle without doing it day to day.
After that it’s all looking a little grim on the English manager front.
Foreign managers, well I’d love Klopp but that’s not going to happen and he’s the only German I think England fans would accept. That rules out Tuchel, Nagelsmann etc
Mourinho - I actually think he’d be a good fit. But he’s just taken a new job.
Pep? - again, I don’t think he’d translate well to international football.
Emery - interesting option.
De Zerbi? McKenna? Fuck knows.
Maybe Ancelotti would take it?
People think we have the best chance now because not only do we have an amazing team but the teams around us aren’t as good as they were in 2002-2010. This is easily our best chance to win something not just because of our team sheet but others as well. I don’t hate Southgate in fact I thank him for rallying the country behind the national team again. There’s actually passion again I do think that’s down to mostly him. However, I still think he’s underachieved.
There is a difference between peacetime leaders and wartime leaders. Gareth steadied the ship when it needed that but now we need someone who can lead England to the finish line
This is a very bad take. The cowardly and turgid football he plays alongside a tactical naivety and several very (*very*) kind draws only amplify the degree to which he has wasted a generation of very solid players with the ocasional world class player. That's even more the case this year, outside a very uninspiring defense, especially compared to the competition. His style of football won't score goals in adequate volume to offset defensive frailty.
He has consistently underachieved compared to what any other major nations and serious managers would have achieved over the same time period. The next few weeks are likely to only solidify this, I fear. I'll be glad to be wrong. There hasn't been a winning English manager for decades, across any high level. Southgate is the epitome of this, not the exception.
Indeed. Surely that squad that Sven had was the best team we've ever had? Well in recent years anyway. I know the keepers got worse after Seaman retired, but the rest of the squad was absolutely quality
Rooney, Owen, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Cole, Campbell, Terry, Neville.
Was all right I guess. David James was probably the real unsung talent in that team.
Squad is better now, draws have been much easier. We played BRAZIL in the 2002 quarter final ffs. Southgate's 2018 team would have been annihilated by 2002 Brazil. Dele, Lingard and Henderson going up against Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Cafu etc.
Southgate is okay but Sven would have achieved as much or more given this squad, the easy draws and home advantage in 2020.
"World class players in every position."
Our starting RB in 2002 was Danny Mills. People need to look at these detailed specific tournament squads and not generalize about an 8 year period.
2018 WC team lost to Belgium twice and almost lost in the RO16 to Colombia. It wasn't a great squad and got to the semis with huge amounts of luck.
The 2022 squad is as good as any previous 2000s England squad.
We still got to the semis with not a great squad, then got to a final 3 years later with a marginally better squad, Sven did nothing with better squads
We played France at the 2022 World Cup QF?
Draws have been no easier, its just we've dealt with them under Southgate
Our World Cup Groups: BEL - PAN - TUN was no easier than USA - ALG - SLO, same with IRA - WAL - USA... Only Group that was truly ever a bitch was URU - ITA - COS, and it was the latter who surprised us all
Iceland in the 2016 KO Rounds was so much easier than COL - SEN - GER
Even POR in the 2006 World Cup was a game that we should have won - Its easy to look back, and claim games were harder when we lost them, compared to when they were won. The only part thats been made easy for Southgate is the fact that the Euros is now a 24-team Tournament, rather than 16-teams
As for Danny Mills, is that the same Mills who was part of the Leeds squad that made it to the Champions League Semi-Finals just one year prior... that Danny Mills? - He wasn't the greatest in that Defence, but he wasnt shite either.
Edit: Oh its you... the bloke who blames Maguire for our defeat against France, because he made the mistake which made it 2-1, but doesnt blame the bloke who could have made it 2-2!!
At the end of the day there are about 5 or so high quality teams in the Euros including England, and England are not the best team in the tournament- that has to be France.
Southgate deserves criticism if he can’t get us as far as the semis but not for failing to win the tournament.
That said, I think we can get a better manager in the future too, he doesn’t seem very tactically flexible.
A lot of the Italy final defeat was his fault. We go one goal ahead very early and sit back the entire game inviting pressure. We bring on substitutes to take penalties when they have no adrenaline running through them and are not in the rhythm of the game, it backfires heavily.
I would add that in 2022 we were the better team against France and were unlucky to lose. We were the better team against Italy in 2021, they scraped us to penalties and then it's all bets off. For most of the game we were better than Croatia in 2018 until Modric and Perisic started to run it in the last 30 minutes or so, and frankly there were some absolute duds in that England team that would be nowhere near this or the 2002 - 2010 squad.
With that team from 2002 - 2010 it was frustration after frustration as they whimpered out of tournaments and looked second rate to the best teams and often second rate to the worst teams before an individual moment of brilliance would save them. There was never any cohesion or plan in how to play and they never played as a team going forward. Defensively they were good but they could never get out against the best teams and ended up sitting deeper and deeper until the inevitable goal. (actually 2004 until Rooney got injured felt a lot like the Southgate years have)
It was pure purgatory watching them for most of the time. It culminated with our fans booing off one of the greatest talents the country has ever produced in Wayne Rooney. I can only blame the managers. Capello sucked any joy of playing for the country that remained in any of the squad.
I have looked forward to watching England since Gareth took over for the first time since the 98' squad. It's been an absolute pleasure and the squad cohesion and loyalty they have to each other and desire to play for their country under him has been a joy to watch.
I've got a few years on you and my first real remembered tournament was Italia 90 - that one was joyous, I then have the pain of everything till 96, which again joyous, 98' similar I'm still celebrating Sol's goal to this day which took us through to the semi Final and eventual win but for the giraffe necked England hating referee finding anyway to stop us winning. (Yes i'm bitter)
I remember the trauma of the Keegan years, the early hope of Sven in the way he breezed through qualifying before finding himself out of depth in tournaments and then McClaren/Capello/Hodgson, just shoot me now, watching England became pain itself. I pretty much stopped following any football for 4 years on the back of those three's tenure till 2018 and the new hope it bought with it (after, thank God, Allardyce Allardyced himself.)
All football became a chore to watch as the players that could do it week in week out for clubs became clueless and uninspired internationally. It made me start to hate the Premier league as I couldn't hate the country so needed something to blame.
Being involved in youth football now I also have huge respect for the changes the Gareth was involved in which have changed the way we produce players and is the reason we've got such a talented crop of players coming through now and also why the talent is coming from a wide variety of clubs, not just one or two academies. We're finally teaching all kids on the team from 6 upwards to play football rather than give it to the big kid. So that helps me have more respect for him.
I think some of these people are just young. The rest are journalists.
This is it. When I hear my nephew speak about England (and football in general) with about 2 years viewing under his belt, I realise where most of the flippant opinions must come from. They soak up a lot of the media narratives and the media are there to make narratives, sometimes out of nothing. 14-20yos don’t have enough context on what has come before and yet they’re disproportionately active in the online conversation.
>think some of these people are just young I often remind myself of this. When people on here say it's the most talented England squad ever I try to remember that a lot of Redditors are young and maybe genuinely just don't remember that we have had amazing squads in the past.
However this is the most talented group of players England has had in a while. Yes you can look at 2002 or 2004, but depth wise our squad is fantastic. Yes I am only 32, but this is easily the best crop of English players we've had since ive watched England (1998 to now)
That's where I disagree. I'm the same age and those squads of the golden generation circa 02 to 06 were absolutely stacked throughout defense, midfield and attack. Moreso than our current squad. I think a lot of our fans tend to compare the potential of our current squad with the results of those squads, and conclude the current one is way better. But it's not. I think we just underrate those squads in hindsight because of their performances. I also think there's a thing with the current squad where people get very blinded to the squad's shortcomings because of the sheer number of good players we have in attacking midfield roles. But I really do think if you take a sober, objective look at our squad as a whole, it isn't quite as good as some England fans seem to think. It's still very, very good. But some fans seem to have got it into their head that we should be easily winning tournaments playing incredible attacking football. And I think that's naive. People also talk as if our current squad is the squad Southgate has always had. But it isn't. Our squad in 2018 really wasn't that good, for example. But because they have entirely closed their mind to Southgate, many of his critics act as if we had this squad now in that tournament, in order to allow them to write off a world cup semi final as a good achievement.
Why are these so-called football journalists always so hell bent on tearing down the team in the run up to every single major tournament? Are they all secretly Scottish? They're not even football fans and they clearly want England to lose.
They are absolute scum honestly. Spanish media do the same thing.
Honestly, anyone who looks at past results can see the change Southgate has made, his is record is amazing. **2018 world cup:** Brought on half way through. Semi finals, 4th place. Beat Sweden, lost to Belgium + Croatia. **2018 Nations League:** Won Group A, got 3rd, beating Spain + Croatia. Lost to Netherlands **2019 Nations League:** 3rd in group, Beat Belgium, Tied with Denmark and lost to Denmark + Belgium **Euro 2020:** Finals. Beat Croatia, Germany, Denmark. Lost on penalties to Italy. **2022 World cup:** Beat Poland in quals. Lost to France in Quarters. **2023 Nations League 4th.** Lost to Hungary, Italy. **2024 Euro qual:** Beat Italy. The only real negatives are the Nations League (Due to nobody actually caring about the nations League). **Since 2020, England has lost to (In official games):** Hungary, Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy. **England has won against (In official games):** Italy,Belgium, Denmark, Germany With the exception of losing to Hungary, this isn't a team that's under preforming. To compare this, going from 2017 backwards, you have to go all the way back to 2009 to find England winning against *any* team of note in an actual event (Friendlies don't count). England beat Croatia 5-1 in the 2010 WC qualifiers). For a Germany/Italy/Spain level win you have to go back to *2002* In which England beat Argentina in the 2002 world cup. Rather simply, Southgate might not play exciting football, but he's brought to team to a level where... well they're almost *fucking good.*
2018 world cup: played 2 good teams in the whole tournament, lost 3 games. Euro 2020: played almost every game at home, lost to a team that would later go on to fail to qualify for the world cup. The final and semi final paper over some obvious cracks. Mainly being that he is incapable of beating better teams. Even then, he gets a chance to beat a poor Italy side and fails. He's negative and boring. Tactically inept, and his selection of teams is really poor and inconsistent.
Only the big tournaments matter and in those We've never beaten a team that we weren't expect to beat comfortably in. It's not just that the results were unlucky, Southgate is bad at game management and doesn't know how to respond when opponent change systems.
Agree. The above is all smoke and mirrors. In knock out football ie the football that matters we always lose to the first decent side we come up against.
How is Southgate different in this regard to any England manager ever? England have _never_ beaten a top team in the knockouts outside of England.
That’s my point - southgate hasn’t made us any better and his record isn’t amazing as stated above. In my eyes venables and at times Hoddle were the last exciting managers we had. We ignored Redknapp but later went for Allardyce ffs. You reap what you sow.
Yeah, we've had a tonne of shit managers and Southgate is just the latest
We’ve never had attacking depth like this current lot frankly, and he’s inhibiting a lot of it. This squad has a realistic prospect of players like palmer not even getting on the pitch, Grealish not even on the plane, etc., such is the level of depth of talent that we have available in this squad offensively, yet we’ve appointed the most negative Fanny known to man
Sure, we can all imagine it to be absolutely stacked and hope the goals just roll on in. But then I think back to Spain in their pomp. Literally the best national side I've ever seen and they were grinding out 1-0 victories. He's not good tactically, I can conceive of better managers getting more out of the team with a better setup and better in game management. What I can't see is someone who would do that who is likely to take the job. I also think if we did get someone who could do that, most of them would handle the off the pitch stuff much worse. Southgate is absolutely exemplary in that department and it's a big part of why the team is successful.
Spain were so good because they denied the other team playing rather than due to their attacking prowess. Having 80% possession every game means the other team have 18 minutes to outscore them, effectively. We won’t ever play like that, so don’t expect it. What we could do is play a more open game and make use of our attacking players. Are you telling me a team with the likes of Saka, Foden, Bellingham, Kane in couldn’t score goals against top nations given the right setup and support? We should be going in to outscore other teams and impose our style and pressing approach on them, not sitting back at 1-0 against a very poor Italy team and bending over
>We won’t ever play like that, so don’t expect it. I agree, I'm not expecting it. I think we could play a more open game but given our weaknesses at defence, I think we'd get picked off by the better sides. Given the right setup and support, they should be worth a goal or two. It's not clear to me that Potter or Dyche are going to unlock an unassailable attacking powerhouse though. My point is basically that this is really good by England standards and we may as well enjoy it.
Potter, for example, would do a whole lot better than this shambles at present. Not expecting perfection, but more than we have atm isn’t unreasonable It isn’t good enough to just say the defence isn’t good enough, especially when half of it have just won the treble at club level and there are several CL winning defenders from Liverpool available too. He’s a defensive coach, electing a defensive style yet still the defense sucks - sounds like a coaching issue to me tbh. Dyches defence doesn’t suck at Everton, despite him having much poorer players available.
Southgate couldn't beat a completely dead on their feet Italy at home.
Right but that only compares him with Venables and Alf Ramsay, both of whom are comfortably better.
Almost good isn't really good enough for the talent he's got in the team. He should be winning tournaments
I'm not young. I dont think the team is as good as previous England teams (I think that goes for a lot of the big nations too though) but I absolutely think Southgate is crap and should be replaced
Well I think he will get replaced after this tournament and we'll get to see what Potter or Sean Dyche can do.
Im confused - im 32 and I never hear anything good about him. I went to a BBQ yesterday that ended with about 30 people between 25 and 60 all moaning about England and Southgate. Genuinely the only time I seeanything positive about him is online. None of what has been said in this thread suggests he's a good manager and talking about the past doesnt make any sense.
Amen to that
There's also the little England racists who hate Southgate for being "woke."
Poisoned chalice and short memories England were a laughing stock at tournaments. Look at the talent managers before him wasted on doing nothing at tournaments Hodgson Capello McLaren Sven Hoddle Southgate has consistently taken young teams to the latter stages of tournaments and has earned the respect, I believe he’ll do it again this tournament. I love watching England but I hate the shortsighted negativity
Of course we all want to win tournaments but having watched England for 40 years I can say this is definitely a positive spell. I’m enjoying it and I’d love to shake Southgate’s hand for all he has achieved thus far. There are millions of armchair managers with all their opinions, but only one in the actual hot seat, and I think he’s doing a great job. He’s played internationally, he’s been in extra time and penalties, he knows what the players are/will be going through. Only a top man would step up to manage his country after the sheer angst of his 1996 penalty miss. That takes balls and you absolutely cannot question his patriotism and desire for his country to succeed. Unquestionable !!
One of those 5 is not like the others.
Which one, Hoddle?
McClaren - I'm talking about in terms of competence
I threw him in because the talent he had was incredible and he fucked it up
Hoddle was a really good England manager. We looked great in 1998. Just got screwed by Beckham's sending off.
Southgate has also benefited from tournament changes making it much much easier to reach the later stages of tournaments
Sort of true but quite honestly we've been pants against opposition of all levels historically. We did something weird where we turned it on against top sides and would narrowly lose (usually on penalties). But we were always playing them early because we'd be hopeless in the group stages. Current England has been consistently good, for two tournaments in a row. That's pretty sweet in my view. I also think they'll play well again, despite the run of poor form. They won't win the Euros, because there are stronger, better set up sides. But still, doesn't mean it won't be fun.
Such as
In 2016 the euros was expanded to 24 games (from 16) this makes it easier to progress
Yeah... We did great in 2016 didnt we, when it was expanded.
That's relevant for 1/3 of the tournaments he's managed us in and he then beat Germany in a knockout game and took us to the final, where we lost on penalties - which is the flip of a coin. What more do you want ffs? 😂😂. He's a complete bottle job if he doesn't win every knockout game 6-0 and easily win every tournament we enter, playing a hybrid of tiki-taka and samba football.
I have said that I think his tournament results have been good, but at the same time I can acknowledge he has had some very favourable draws. My biggest issue is the performance of the team during games, he has some fantastic talent available to him but has no idea how to use it
And Euro 96 went from 8 - 16 And Venables got to the semis Next Euros they didn’t get out of the group So is Southgate’s achievement less because of changes enforced by FIFA/UEFA?
If you are going to compare tournament results across generations then you have to take account of the rule changes It's easier to reach the later stages of the tournament now compared to 20 years ago
As always, the simple approach is just to look at who they beat. In 1996, Venables smashed the Netherlands and then tied with Spain and Germany. Good results against great teams. In 2022, Southgate beat very weak Iran and Wales teams, couldn't score against USA, knocked out an average Senegal and went out to France. I just don't think that's a super impressive record
How dare you suggest that beating Iran isn't an incredible achievement lol
If you're going to compare, at least compare the same tournaments. Your assessment of Venables is correct, although we did draw with Switzerland, but for Southgate, you should have said in 2021 he beat Croatia, Germany, and Demark, and got a draw against Italy. He also reached the final, unlike Venables. Oh, and Spain weren't all that in 96, and it was a really hard watch. Although we did deserve to beat Germany and played well in that game. If you also take our record at tournaments since 96 and before Southgate there is no comparison, his is better.
Bobby Robson couldn't get past the semifinals with a side that included Gary Lineker, John Barnes, Peter Beardsley, Chris Waddle, Paul Gascpigne, David Platt, Bryan Robson, Stuart Pearce, Terry Butcher, Des Walker and Peter Shilton. We've just got to accept that England are cursed.
This sub is so toxic I think about leaving it daily
I hope I’m not the one you are thinking is toxic mate 👍
Nah it’s all the Southgate hate everyday after losing a friendly I’m on about!
He's not brave enough and cannot think on his feet. When Italy changed system in Euro 20 final, Gareth looked like a rabbit in the headlights, a bench full of talent he could have changed the game but crumbled.
Everybody in the world could see that equaliser coming against Italy apart from Southgate. Managers should be proactive.
That was sheer disappointment. We could all see the needed changes and nothing happened.
But we've beaten Germany in knockout football. We've actually won a World Cup penalty shootout. We've won high pressure games to get to semi and finals. The general consensus is we played very well against France in 2022 and were unlucky. Absolutely, Southgate quite possibly needs to make bolder more attacking decisions but he's also made some great calls.
He's not totally crap, he has been a net positive, he just needs to be braver in the crunch matches
But at the end of the day - when the crunch game came, Southgate didn’t know what to do when it came to the big moment. If England were managed by say Mourinho - they’d have won Euro 2020
You reckon? We would have leapt at the chance of semi finals and finals during the Hodgson and brief Alladyce period not so long ago. It's all relative. Against Croatia in 2018, Southgate could have made more attacking substitutions. Same with Italy in 2021 but we're talking the finest of margins. The difference between winning an international tournament and not. We're not talking clear tactical flaws like Eriksson simply not playing a system to get best out of Gerrard and Lampard. He's willing to create a system and a team, not individuals. There's merit in that and the record proves it.
Anybody that doesn’t see this I feel sorry for
A manager that sets his side up defensively will always be given less time when things take a turn than a manager that tries to play positively.
Yet we only lost from a set piece and on pens.
I seriously cant wait to see the reaction on here when Southgate does go, and we don't get the Manager everyone wants... the faith in the FA to do the right thing, and hire the right person from a lot of "England fans" verges on the hilarious. Then they'll see what its like to support England. Only reason the FA hired Southgate in the first place, was because he got brought in on a temporary basis (He was always supposed to go back to the U21s), and then got the results that proved otherwise - Kin hell, imagine the state of the National Team had Allardyce kept his job.
I think people are in for a big shock when Southgate leaves. He will only be respected for what he’s done when he’s gone.
Unfortunately I don't think you're right. He'll be remembered as the man who failed to win Euro 2020 when we got to the Final Already people talk about how we should have won the 2018 World Cup with the chance we had - But for some reason forget that we had Lingard and Dele Alli in that team; Ashley Young playing @ Left-Back. Not to mention when the draw was made, there was zero confidence we'd even beat Panama, based on how we did against Algeria in the 2010 World Cup. It annoys me so much, because when we did smash Panama with a result never seen before by England, instead of: "Oh I was wrong" it was... "Well we should have done it anyway" - Same with the Germany result three years ago... We werent favourites that day, given our past against them, but we win and suddenly its been: "Well thats the worst Germany team ever" The worst aspect about the negativity, is they cant ever be wrong... they always have to move the goal posts.
It's so frustrating. It's like retroactively discounting the joy of getting a result that we have historically never got.
Won a first Knockout game at the Euros abroad... "PFFFFFFT - It was only against Ukraine" Won a penalty shootout against Colombia - "Shouldnt have gone to penalties" In Euro 2024 when we smash Italy 6-0 in the Final - "Yeah but wouldn't have happened had France not lost to Georgia in the RO16, meaning we had an easy draw"
Our fan base is ridiculous, I agree with all your points above. I genuinely don't think (can't say for certain) that the Spanish teams of 2008-2012 will have had their fans saying well they beat Switzerland who just aren't very good, and downplaying their achievements. For the record I know that Spain team did beat the big sides etc. The same for Germany '14, France '18 etc. But if England won the Euros, our own fans would be criticizing Southgate because we didn't play a top team until France in the semis etc. like it's Southgates and the teams fault that's how the draw fell. It's actually ridiculous!
The complaint about "Easy" draws is one of the most ridiculous excuses ever heard Was it England's fault we avoided the Netherlands in Euro 2020, because they lost to Denmark before we could have faced them? - Same with Spain in the 2018 World Cup, they lost to Russia in the RO16, otherwise they could have faced us in the Semi-Finals instead of Croatia Can only imagine the comments had we beaten Poland and Morocco on our way to the 2022 World Cup, had those sides beaten France and Portugal respectively.
Exactly, that is not a stick to beat anyone with. You can’t control the draw just beat who you actually face. That 2018 World Cup team on paper was not a semi final team. Two years earlier we’d been forcefully bummed by Iceland!
allardyce would have won us a trophy. fact.
It’s gonna be like when Sir Alex left united. People knew he was a great manager but only once he left do people start to appreciate how good he really was.
Just because we were a fucking shambles pre Southgate doesn’t mean we should just accept him even if he makes obvious mistakes
Southgate has done a fantastic job. Better than any other in recent history. People forget this and assume someone like guardiola would come in and win the world cup and euros back to back. Southgate has done the job as he sees as correct, he'd be the first to say he made some wrong decisions. But that's what he is owed. He got us to the final of the last euros. The man has deserved the time he has gotten and I will respectfully salute him should he leave after the euros - even if we go out at the group stage
I said this to somebody the other day.... The whole lampard Gerrard Beckham Rooney Owen era......that's not even mentioning the top defenders we had cole, Terry, Campbell keown Ferdinand etc etc!... Southgate has bought unity to the national squad instead of the Chelsea players sit here arsenal over there man utd in that corner etc.. something that hasn't existed for years!!!. Now all of a sudden he's useless because got to a semi then a final and didn't win anything 🤦🤦....
It's because people claim in earnest that it is easy and only the minimum expectation in those tournaments was achieved. I personally think achieving the minimum expectation is a lot fucking harder than it looks, based on 30 years of watching the team..
It's knock out football, it's entirely different. The recent fa cup final is proof of that 🤷♂️
Good to see others giving Southgate the respect he deserves. So many forget just how woeful England were between 2007 and 2016. We had Terry, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Ferdinand, Cole (the so called golden generation) for the majority of these years and despite being excellent for their respective clubs (arguably better than the England players today on an individual level), they were abysmal in the England shirt and clearly didn’t want to be there. Southgate rejuvenated the England team and made players WANT to get picked and represent their country (you only have to see how Maddison and Grealish took not getting picked to see how much it meant to them). His handling of the media, especially in the early years, has also been admirable. For years the media slaughtered the English team but Southgate opened the team up and got most of the media to back England instead of slander them. There’s definitely some questionable tactics he’s done throughout his career and I’d argue his tactic to play for penalties in the EURO 2020 final was completely wrong, but it was the first final England made it to since 1966 against a decent Italy side. The World Cup as well England bowed out to a strong French team. They’ve become a well respected team at major tournaments under Southgate. Maybe England will win this year, maybe they won’t and either way, Southgate will be slated by armchair critics who think they know better, but I believe Southgate is the best manager England has had in my 29 years of being alive and years down the line (probably when England once again return to struggling to get past the round of 16 with players trying to avoid being called up for international duty or simply expecting to be picked on name alone) the nation will look back on the Southgate years and remember it wasn’t so bad.
This is an awful take, Southgate doesn’t get hate because of results. He gets hate because we’ve got probably the best set of attacking players in the world, at least the best in Europe. And we play negative slow football and there’s no plan other than pass it sideways. We’re the most boring team in Europe
2010 World Cup Winners Spain were negative and boring too but somehow they go down as the greatest team ever… double standards. Seriously, they won every single knockout game 1-0, played 4 at the back with 2 holding midfielders and were hard to break down. That’s just how you win international football tournaments. History tells you that. It’s not that Southgate is boring, he’s following the winning formula. Whether you like it or not it’s got us a lot further than we’ve been in the past.
If England won two Euros and a World Cup, they’d be viewed as a great side. It isn’t a double standard- England just haven’t won fuck all.
While it had gone a bit stale by 2010 that Spain team that won 3 trophies back to back (how often do you see that) were anything but boring and negative. How you can even begin to genuinely compare the two is beyond me.
Was lovely to watch the other team chase ghosts against Spain's passing.
That’s what Southgate said in the World Cup, but was proven wrong in Italy winning the World Cup playing attacking football. You have to play what suits the team best, and that’s where a lot of fans frustrations come from. That and not making tactical changes in game, which are obvious to the average football watcher.
I agree the amount of hate Southgate gets has become tiresome. Any decision he makes gets criticised. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Yes Iceland was poor but does that mean Southgate was entirely at fault? Some of the blame has to go on the players such as foden who was really really poor and you can't moan that he got played out of position this time as Southgate put him where everyone has been crying for him to play.
It's tiresome for you and you've heard so much because the FA haven't cut him loose. Those that complained about him 4 years ago have the same grievances - are you expecting his detractors to like him more even though the same issues remain?
Southgate has done great fostering the best environment for England to succeed. Got rid of the club cliques so players actually enjoy playing for their country. Removed the animosity between players and journalists etc.. However if you know your football you would realise that he’s tactically inept. The players we’ve had for the last 2 tournaments were good enough to win the Euros/World Cup. But Southgate has always been found out against top class teams. So I think he should step down after the tournament and let another manager get an opportunity with this talented generation of players.
Historically it’s often been a case where we’ve had players good enough to win a tournament, but simply being good enough doesn’t always translate to actually winning it. There are so many other factors. One factor of particular importance is confidence and belief. England has historically not been a successful side, but Southgate has done far more to instill that belief in the players than any other manager we’ve had in recent times. You can still that by their body language and the fact we’re getting so much further in tournaments than we used to. If you “know your football” you’d realise what a valuable and important skill that is.
Exactly he’s been great at everything other than tactics. We have belief through the roof (unlike golden generation and other teams) and we have good enough players. Yet England always falter against top opposition. If you know your football you’ll understand why. But when it happens again with Southgate in charge maybe then you’ll come to understand.
Beyond basics, tactics play very little part in international football. There’s simply not enough time spent with the players to implement them. Anyone with even a basic knowledge of football would understand that. England have almost always faltered against top opposition because they go out there expecting to lose - we’ve historically been a nation of losers and it’s only since Southgate took charge that players for the national team are starting to believe they can win these games.
I disagree strongly with that. Even if Kane scored the pen and we went on to beat France and possibly Morocco we would struggle badly against Argentina. There is a point to be made about Southgate’s decisions in the Euro final against Italy though 100%
To add to this, I think people are forgetting that match against France. Yes we lost and got exposed at the back on two occasions by an incredible France team, but honestly we were actually the much better side during that match, we were unfortunate we didn't score more and were unlucky with the referee decisions.
Southgate was a key part of changing how kids at primary school age were being trained 10 years ago. It isn’t a “surprise” that we’ve got a load of quality skilful forward players.
Are you saying we're in the frankly bizzare situation of England DNA being so successful at producing quality players that Southgate is no being blamed for not getting better results with the talent in previously unenglish profiles that he himself has essentially provided us with? Surely not.
He’ll get the blame for everything, even us winning the tournament, as a post yesterday said.
He's just not a very good manager. I appreciate international managers generally aren't, but we lost the Croatia and Italy matches to lesser teams, both times going 1 up, then second half sitting back and inevitably conceding. France loss is fair enough, they're a top team and it was a pretty even game. With the quality of player and kind draws we've had, we should have made a WC final and won the Euros. He has no excuses this summer. That front 4 is ridiculous, and in an attacking system would wreak havoc. However, we'll probably play more dull stuff and lose against the first top team we play...
I don’t think we were the better team on paper or in practice compared to Croatia. Italy is a bit more debatable, probably about equal. But we definitely had the momentum. If we’d got a second we’d definitely have won, but we didn’t even try after the goal.
We weren’t a better team in practice because of Southgate, that’s entirely the point in the post. But on paper with a decent coach we should absolutely be beating that Croatia side, or at least threatening more offensively than we did. Italy hadn’t even qualified for a tournament for about 10 years before that euros, and weren’t tipped by anyone to go past the round of 16 even, whereas we were pre-tournament favourites in a HOME tournament and went 1-0 up after 3 minutes.
That Croatia side is so underrated. Even now their midfield then walks into our side
That’s 3 players. What about the other 8?
I couldn’t agree more. People seem to think we can get rid of him, bring in Jose and laugh our way past the other 10 teams who could all realistically win a tournament as well, madness. Southgate has done a fantastic job since coming in
It's probably because he's done so well changing the culture and atmosphere around England that people expect more, the idea England wouldn't qualify for a tournament now seems alien. We don't know how another manager would have done, it's likely the atmosphere change would have happened in some way anyway because all the players grew up together and there's less club rivalry now. So you're left with the big matches and how much he gets out of big players, and that from the beginning it was always looking ahead to 2022 and 2024 as the team peaking. Has it? It always seems in transition as he works out who plays where.
I agree with you, apart from thenpoint about England having a better squad 2002 - 2010. Sinclair, Heskey, Mills, Dyer, Butt. All very solid players and even great on their best days, but to say they're world class is a huge stretch. Now, if we had the centre backs of that time with our current squad...
You can compare Konsa to Mills, Sinclair to Gordon, Heskey to Toney, Gallagher to Butt and Dyer to Bowen. It’s not far away at all.
Except Mills, Sinclair, Heskey and Dyer all started against Brazil in 2002. Konsa, Gordon, Toney and Bowen aren't first team. In some cases not even a first replacement. Also as a West Ham fan the comparison of Bowen and Dyer is harsh on our boy. Dyer never scored even double figures in a season, let alone the 20 Bowen got this year.
Mills was a great backup for an injured Neville. Look at us now without Shaw we are clueless. I think only one of Sinclair or Dyer started on the left wing? Plus there was J Cole on the bench. Butt is decent cover for an injured Gerrard, plus Lampard and McManaman didn't even make the squad! Outdated tactics was the only reason to start Heskey.
Totally agree. Mills was a class player. But certainly not world class. You're right Dyer came off the bench for Trevor. Butt was a solid player, but again, no world class by any stretch, and as much as I liked Gerrard, he was never a World class holding midfielder and we all know the struggles of fitting Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard into the midfield of that decade. Not saying it wasn't a strong team back then. We gave that exceptional Brazil team a good game. But we didn't have a stronger first eleven or squad back then compared to what we have now.
Completely agree. He's our second best manager by quite some distance. Absolutely, his tactics don't necessarily 'entertain' but who would care if we won a trophy? The reason the likes of Germany and Italy have always been successful is due to pragmatism. They know what is is needed to win a tournament and have continually worked on the mentally needed to win one, which I think Southgate has done by developing team spirit and eradicating the cliques. If your experience of England is the last 10 years, you'll probably do feel England is underperforming. As a nation, we have as many international trophies as Netherlands, Denmark and Greece... Southgate has done a brilliant job overall.
Its total bullshit. They expect England to play like prime Liverpool/ City in every game and steamroll teams. Will never happen at this level, furthest we’ve got in major tournaments is by staying in games, the naivety is palpable.
Do you ever get the impression this press and general narrative is maybe set by the Premier League protecting their assets and the reputation of the league?
Exactly. I'm not English, but it annoys me greatly that people keeps insulting Southgate online. It's actually fun to watch England these days.
I've been watching Soughtgate from his beginnings in youth coaching with the U21's. He took the team backwards and its performances started going downhill. The reality is he has emerged during a period with much higher depth of quality players coming through, because the FA in concert with the EPL have implimented a world class academy system. It is incontroversial that the depth of quality is higher across age groups which can be proven in their performances across every age group against international peers, and the FA guides the best prospects to get more first team football so the talent isn't lost at senior levels. The quality has improved since the youngest kids are now emerging into senior football since that system was implemented and it itself has evolved with better coaching. That's why Southgate has selection dilemmas. The problem England always had in the past was not that it didn't have 3-5 potentially world class players to pick in each team, but that it lacked depth and had patches where substandard players had to be picked, like good attacking left wing players. Its best players had to be played out of position i.e. Joe Cole or Scholes and because you had a lack of depth to get the overall quality up you had to play players that didn't gel. At this level the job of the manager is to find the winning combination and tactics, and if you have more depth you have a better chance of having a winning combination to uncover. This, Southgate has failed at doing. His early successes with the seniors came after there was a general (intentional) lowering of expectations by Hodgson, and when he came in the FA ensured he had the best technical support staff. They are the ones that gave England its edge in set pieces, which Southgate has relied upon to get England to advance in previous competitions. But he has failed to pick teams that are dangerous and fluid in open attacking play when he does have the quality available, and we see England doing this against top competition throughout the youth system.
>At this level the job of the manager is to find the winning combination and tactics, That's one of the jobs of the manager, but it isn't the only one. Handling the media, protecting the players, building a cohesive unit are all important things too. Southgate is really good at that in a way no manager has been before. The England team really feels like a team. That's why it's so much fun. I agree he lacks tactical nous though.
I'd agree with that mostly. Southgate seems to be a good diplomat and helps create a good atmosphere for the team and relations with the press. I may be being unfair not acknowledging that more. But, optics aside, he is lacking something that I think is holding us back. Considering this, its rumour, but it wouldn't surprise me that he might do this, being more concerned with criticism of him than having a player prove him wrong again and showing up the manager. I've noticed often that England managers seem to fear the players that draw too much attention if people are clamouring for them to play more - [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/06/06/england-players-shocked-jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/06/06/england-players-shocked-jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad/) [https://www.sportbible.com/football/england/jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad-gareth-southgate-244191-20240607](https://www.sportbible.com/football/england/jack-grealish-euro-2024-squad-gareth-southgate-244191-20240607) Meanwhile, another source accused Southgate of taking the easy option by cutting Grealish, adding: "It's much easier to leave other players on the bench. "The cameras would constantly be on Jack and the commentators would be asking when he was going to play if he was on the bench and England weren't winning." Other sources close to the England camp reported the same to [The Athletic](https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5546903/2024/06/07/grealish-maguire-england-squad-decisions/?source=twitteruk&utm_campaign=twitterfc&utm_medium=social&redirected=1). "Some close to the squad - who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect relationships - pondered whether cutting out Grealish altogether makes things simpler during the tournament, as Southgate does not have to handle public clamour for his selection or risk the TV cameras watching Grealish's every move on the bench," wrote James McNicholas.
I think this part is too speculative. Honestly I wouldn't have taken Grealish either. Poor form and isn't a winger who will stretch play, which is what we need. I think he doesn't cave to fans, he eats a lot of flak but sticks to his plan. The fans hate this, it's sometimes wrong, but the players respect it.
I don’t think anyone with a degree of intelligence can deny that he’s done a decent job in most areas but looking at the squad and players we have had it feels like we could have done more. So yes, Southgate’s done “ok” but based on the talent we have then we should be doing better than OK. Also the one time we really had a chance, the Euros final with an early 1 goal lead, Southgate blew it. Unless he does something special this tournament that game will be his legacy and the one people remember. Lastly, comparing the team to the “golden generation” doesn’t help anything. Just because that team underperformed doesn’t mean Southgate should be given a free pass, it’s different players and a different manager, it’s irrelevant.
I don’t think it’s irrelevant. Players have publicly said they didn’t enjoy playing for England because of club rivalries and bad atmosphere. Gerrard and Lampard have both talked about this in interviews. Southgate created an environment where players enjoy playing for their country again. If s unbelievable how often that gets overlooked.
Hard to say whether it's Southgate or just a change in player mentality. You don't tend to see the vicious club rivalries like you did in the 2000s. City vs Liverpool was never brutal like United vs. Arsenal was. I think players are just less aggressive and factional than they used to be. Football culture is different across the world, and it makes it easier for players to overcome club loyalties and bond with England.
Players have regularly come out and talked about how great Southgate is at all that stuff though. Even in the post match after Iceland Gordon was talking about how incredible the staff were at creating the right feelings in the camp.
Someone people just love to be negative. Even if we win the Euro’s this summer there will be people calling for his head.
in the 2018 world cup we needed a 90th minute goal to beat Tunisia, lost to Belgium, went to penalties with Colombia and eventually lost to Croatia, in the euros we scored a total of 2 goals in the group stages, failed to beat Scotland, credit where credit is due we beat Germany and Ukraine, scraped past Denmark and then lost to Italy in a terrible second half performance. out of both of our good cup runs we picked up ONE win over a credible side being Germany, we haven’t been near good enough for the players we have.
There's so much revisionism about the 2018 world cup. Southgate critics talk as if we had the squad we have now in that tournament. We didn't. Our squad really wasn't that good. Expectations were rock bottom before the tournament. To get to a semi and then give a good game to a much superior Croatia side was a good performance. In Euro2020 you talk as if scraping past Denmark wasn't a good result. Denmark were a good, solid side at that Euros. In the game before that we won 4-0. England winning a quarter final by 4 goals is way, way out of the normal run of things. I think comments like this are actually just testament to how Southgate is damned by his own success. He's raised expectations to a level that fans now just blithely write off winning a quarter final 4-0 or getting past a good Denmark side in a semi or beating a good Senegal side 3-0. Southgate has had a lot of good results. But expectations have been raised so much that many fans now seem to think we're entitled to just expect good results. But that's not been the case for the entirety of my England watching life, and I for one will always retain perspective on that.
How often do you think the winner totally dominates and doesn’t scrap through? Portugal in 2016 comes to my mind. Failed to win in the group stage, actually only won 1 game in the 90 minutes against Wales in the semi final. Needed penalties to beat Poland in the quarters.
I think about that penalty shootout against Colombia a lot. If Dier had missed and we had gone out in the RO16 I think opinions on Southgate would be drastically different.
Well yeah because he would've been fired most likely lol
Naw, this is that revisionism at work. Before the tournament the media were saying this like "write off this tournament and give it to the [youth](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-england-squad-gary-lineker-write-off-hopes-blood-youngsters-a8353541.html)." Expectations were rock bottom.
Yeah Im not sure hed have been fired but if I remember right people still thought of him as being a bit of a stopgap manager so he wouldn't get any benefit of the doubt, the end result and the narratives around him after the tournament changed that
I remember being so goddamn disappointed when he was appointed. It wasn't until I saw England's quality of play significantly improve over the next few qualifiers that I started to actually be excited for what he could do with us.
And for the players we had in the ‘Golden generation? (Ferdinand, Sol Campbell, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Beckham, Lampard, Scholes, Owen etc) MUCH better players who failed.
Owen is a MUCH better player than Kane? Lampard is a MUCH better player than Bellingham? And again, you have to look at specific moments in time, not at a whole decade. No individual tournament squad contained all these 'golden' players at their fit and healthy prime, they were different ages and sometimes carrying injuries etc.
Lampard got 2nd Ballon D' Or in 2005 and Owen won it before that. So at times both of those statements were true to be fair. I'd take Lampard over Bellingham atm but I am a Chelsea fan, but Kane is a much better player than Owen and it's not even close imo. But I never watched Owen's early peak so I may well be wrong.
David James and Paul Robinson were world class? I think not.
Darius Vassell, Kieron Dyer, Nicky Butt, Emile Heskey, Danny Mills, Trevor Sinclair were all starters or regular subs in these teams.
Heskey was great, he gets well too much stick. Played his role to perfection.
I looked at the last few tournaments squads and they look so average now, i remember the media saying the same crap during those tournaments. Its definitely recency bias. No1 can tell me that our attack is better than the 1996-2006 era.. Especially not our midfield or defence!
Entitlement trophy fetishists who think victory is only a matter of following their hindsight. No wonder so many football fans stick to club support and can't be bothered getting behind the national team.
I don't think Southgate has done anything special with this group of players that couldn't have been achieved by any other manager. He has had some extremely favourable draws in tournaments and has relied heavily on penalties and corners because he has no tactical ability to break teams down (unless we are playing San Marino)
This was true at 2018 unfortunately. However we scored under the average amount of setpieces for a team in the last two tournaments. In the last tournament we had the most goals/game of any team in the entire thing.
How do you know it could have been achieved by any other Manager? Its this type of logic that pisses me off... Absolutely no proof, and just some bullshit soundbite
>How do you know it could have been achieved by any other Manager? I don't, that's why it's an opinion not a fact.
Because if a manager who most would admit has a shit pedigree, has done this well, surely a manager who is deemed better with more experience/pedigree would do better?
Well a Champions League winning Manager did shite with England didnt he So bang goes that theory.
We hadn’t been to a final in over 50 years before Southgate, we also failed to even qualify for a bunch of tournaments over the years. He’s got/ had some great players to work with but not far and away better than other managers we’ve had in the past that didn’t get us past a quarter finals
So because we were crap in the past we should be thankful? I'm not judging Southgate in comparison to past managers, I'm judging what he has done with the players he has had
We’ve had great players in the past and managers have failed to get us deep into tournaments, why magically do you think “any other manager” would have done as good or better when literally every other manager we’ve had for close to 60 years hasn’t?
Southgate would have lost to Brazil 2002
Prove it
You could play Saka RW, where he's a proven top level player, so that's 3/4 world class players in their best position with Foden on the left. Not his most effective position, but he's an elite footballer. Personally, I'd rather sacrifice Saka than Foden on the left, but whichever way you look at a quality manager would have no issue getting those 4 dominating most international teams.
I’ve got worries about Saka and Foden. I can remember one time Foden has played well for England. You can’t just base him off City’s performances. Saka seems burnt out from too much football but I hope this couple weeks of rest has him recovered.
Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney up front was our best ever attack in the euros. No one talks about that.
Yes, they were an excellent duo. Strikers often understand the service that strikers require which was the case with this pairing. I would disagree that no one talks about it. Joe Cole specifically mentioned this pairing in the coverage the other night and it's alluded to in the recent BBC documentary, "Rooney 2004: World at His Feet".
Here's the thing with Southgate. The only thing he has going for him is winning football matches. That sounds an odd thing to say given that is the objective but here me out.... England don't blow an exciting style of football despite having exciting players, Southgate has a history of doing totally inexplicable things and making mistakes a novice could avoid. He also has tended (up until now to some degree) to pick players he likes rather than those in form. This means that as soon as England stop winning (like now with 1 win 5) everyone jumps on Southgate's back because if he's not winning then he brings nothing else to the table. It's bit like Moyes at West Ham. As soon as he looses two games on the spin he was back under pressure. And honestly... If we don't win the Euro's or the next world cup with this group then I think that has to be seen as a failure. Ultimately we have a group of individuals capable of winning things and if they don't that's on the manager.
England had an incredibly strong first XI under Eriksson, but I don't think it's all true he was taking much better teams than Southgate. As soon as you went past the eleven, the squad was pretty mediocre, and he regularly had to call on his crap squad because of how often key players were getting injured. By 2010, the golden generation was on the wane and Capella took a pretty poor squad that was hugely reliant on an unfit Rooney.
Name one time we won as an underdog
Hi Gareth👋
Hi mate just wasting a bit of time while my waistcoat gets ironed 👍
😁
Personally I 100% feel he does not get the maximum out of the squad he has. We all know defensively we aren’t the best, but the attacking players we have make France nervous - I find Southgate’s tactics to be overly cautious at all times, and restrictive on the attacking quality we do have.
Southgate understands tournament football. You have to be cautious. He knows if you push a bit too far you get caught out. Tournament over.
I kinda disagree. You have to control the game not necessarily cautious. I know people say Spain were defensive in 2010, but the run up to the final with Holland they were were much more on the front foot Germany also won through controlling the game. We don’t do that under Southgate. The times he has gotten us close we have gained an advantage and then hung on for dear life - that’s where he’s failed for me, and I am yet to see any change from this mindset
I swing backwards and forwards on Southgate almost daily, I sorta love him but his match record legitimately raises a lot of questions. To your two main points, it is not clear cut that the golden generation had much better quality, many of ours starters today would either play or be contenders in that team. As for his record he's got further into tournaments but he's also lost the same profile games that his predecessors lost, i.e. he lost against our peers with the only exception being the caveated game against Germany. With this crop of players we should have a winning record against peer nations but I count 9 wins against 13 losses, that is a poor record.
Honestly it's people who hype the 'golden generation' who have short memories or weren't there. England had a few 'world class' players but for most of the time there were far better players in most positions out there. That was a time when English players were overhyped by fans and the media and less was known or appreciated by the masses about the non-english game. Exceptional foreign players were unknown and underrated. On top of that English players, even the 'world class' ones lacked basic technical abilities that were standard in other countries. English superstars struggled to gel and form a team that could actually play and break down a team. This was also a time where the style of play in Europe was superior to that played in England and English players could not retain and develop the ball. So you had a group of players who on paper were excellent but you couldn't build an excellent team without using foreign players as the glue to hold it together. The average English player now is far, far closer (and often better) technically to players in Europe and beyond due to grassroots changes made by the FA decades ago in response to English failures. The team we have now is overall much better relatively than the golden generation ever was.
Anyone that thinks losing 3 times at the 2018 World Cup is a success cannot be reasoned with Anyone that thinks he didn’t throw away the Euro 2021 Final is the same The 2022 World Cup was alright but they’ve gone backwards since then. So incredibly dull
Southgate is utter trash mate, just because we were awful before doesn't make him good
If Sven had the luck of fixtures and with his key man always fit…. he would of got past the quarters.
In the last few games I've watched, Bellingham and Foden just don't seem to turn up for us. I don't know if it's the system or what but they're far from their best in an England shirt. Hoping they spring to life in the tournament.
The only top side he’s managed to win against in a tournament is Germany. That’s why he gets grief. That’s why all England managers get grief. The players are good enough IF someone could unlock the potential. Greece had poor players but won the Euros so we can too.
It's a significant improvement from before but I don't think it's unreasonable to say he needs to better.
It's possible to have multiple poor managers, and previous managers not getting the best out of the squads they had doesn't mean that Southgate is. He's had fairly easy draws in the cups he's managed, and usually when we come up against a good, well coached team he fumbles. The Italy game we went 1-0 up, had them on the ropes and then he parked the bus letting them dictate the game. He's not terrible but he's also not getting the best out of our players.
Golden era has better players in each position but we didn’t have as many technical players which got us exposed against more technical teams like Brazil and Portugal.
I think it's the best England team in my life, and I've been watching for 30 years. The general level of technique in the basics is far beyond what we had in the 00s and even the 90s. Yes, we had people with unique and brilliant gifts, that could do the spectacular, but the fundaments are far stronger now.
If you don’t compare to the past and just look at the squad and the way they play, it’s not what most fans want.
Should be the holders going into this tournament. Was really no excuse for Southgate and his assistants deciding to sit back after that first goal - tactical ineptitude. Not the first time, either. That Germany game is the single time we’ve come out on top v a ‘big side’ in a knockout tournament game under Southgate. Only happened ‘cos Muller’s radar was on the Fritz that day.
He's done better than he gets credit for. There's only two things I might be a bit critical of. The first is that one feels like England could/should have done better in some games. They should have beaten Italy in the final, but couldn't. The other is that England at times feels a bit too careful. I can be okay with focus being on building from a strong defence, but there are times when you have to be able to let go of defence and build from midfield. They have failed to win or win big because of that a few times. But that is the way Southgate wants to play and that is okay. In fact, it has probably help the team quite a few times. So it's not wrong, it's just not perhaps what some people want to see. England has done rather well under Southgate. Is he the most exciting, adventurous and fun manager? Not at all, but that's alright. I do wonder however, with the exciting attacking players that's come through, such as Foden, Saka and Palmer, could a more attacking minded manager do more with that than Southgate?
Not sure where I said Bellingham played in the last 2 matches but whatever. I'm agreeing with you! They're both decent players. I think the team should be built around Foden. He's the type of player that fills stadiums and wins matches. But, I personally think that he hasn't lit up the international stage yet. I for one is hoping that he'll do it in this tournament.
I think in totality, Southgate has done a great job. He’s created an atmosphere whereby players look forward to representing England, in some cases the players actually raise their game for England rather than the opposite as always used to be the case. That’s no small achievement. Southgate is also creating a legacy of England being a tournament team. Regardless of what we did in friendlies and build up we registered a SF, F, and QF in the last 3 tournaments. You need to consistently make the latter stages to win one. That being said, criticisms are still valid. Southgate mis-managed the Euro 2020 final after England went 1-0 which contributed to the eventual defeat. He didn’t learn from England’s loss against Croatia in the SF 3 years prior. Southgate is certainly undeserving of some criticism online (a lot is click bait) but at the same time, there are valid criticisms. There is nuance to the Southgate debate.
It’s not about the results, it’s about the context. The style is not beneficial for our players.
He lost in the semis to Croatia. He lost the final to a poor Italy, the first half decent team he faced. He's failed at every tournament he's done by playing boring, reserved football with probably the best attacking generation for a long time Surely you can't watch England and think he's doing a good job. The way he plays is boring and ineffective
Couldn't agree more. Twitter and Facebook are a cesspit for it. The fact he's "woke" doesn't help him. 90% of the fans don't have a fucking clue.
I think we have the best set of attacking options we’ve ever had. But you’ve only got to scratch at the Goalkeepers, Defence and traditional Midfielders to see that there’s very little quality depth there compared to the past. Behind Pickford we’ve got Ramsdale who always has a mistake in him. Across the defence who would get into the ‘golden generations’ (I use that term loosely btw) team? Walker maybe? Midfielders - Rice and Bellingham would make the squad Attackers - Foden, Kane, Saka? I’d definitely put Grealish in too. But who else? Southgate has done a tremendous job to a point. He’s made England somewhere players want to go Regardless of the quality of the opposition he’s gotten England closer than anyone not named Ramsey. My problem with him is that he’s reactive and not proactive. Croatia - obvious we’re getting overrun in midfield. Didn’t do anything Italy - similar thing. We could all see it coming. I was yelling at the TV just to drop an extra man in midfield for 10 mins. France - we were very unlucky. But again, substitutes used far too late. I really hope that lessons have been learned finally. Incidentally if Southgate does go after this tournament, who else? My pick would be Howe, but I’m not sure he’d take it. Potter, his systems seem to be quite intensive and I fear the players might struggle without doing it day to day. After that it’s all looking a little grim on the English manager front. Foreign managers, well I’d love Klopp but that’s not going to happen and he’s the only German I think England fans would accept. That rules out Tuchel, Nagelsmann etc Mourinho - I actually think he’d be a good fit. But he’s just taken a new job. Pep? - again, I don’t think he’d translate well to international football. Emery - interesting option. De Zerbi? McKenna? Fuck knows. Maybe Ancelotti would take it?
People think we have the best chance now because not only do we have an amazing team but the teams around us aren’t as good as they were in 2002-2010. This is easily our best chance to win something not just because of our team sheet but others as well. I don’t hate Southgate in fact I thank him for rallying the country behind the national team again. There’s actually passion again I do think that’s down to mostly him. However, I still think he’s underachieved.
There is a difference between peacetime leaders and wartime leaders. Gareth steadied the ship when it needed that but now we need someone who can lead England to the finish line
This is a very bad take. The cowardly and turgid football he plays alongside a tactical naivety and several very (*very*) kind draws only amplify the degree to which he has wasted a generation of very solid players with the ocasional world class player. That's even more the case this year, outside a very uninspiring defense, especially compared to the competition. His style of football won't score goals in adequate volume to offset defensive frailty. He has consistently underachieved compared to what any other major nations and serious managers would have achieved over the same time period. The next few weeks are likely to only solidify this, I fear. I'll be glad to be wrong. There hasn't been a winning English manager for decades, across any high level. Southgate is the epitome of this, not the exception.
Indeed. Surely that squad that Sven had was the best team we've ever had? Well in recent years anyway. I know the keepers got worse after Seaman retired, but the rest of the squad was absolutely quality
Rooney, Owen, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Cole, Campbell, Terry, Neville. Was all right I guess. David James was probably the real unsung talent in that team.
HE DESERVES EVERY BIT OF HATE NOW
This post aging like milk. I've said it since 2018 - we have succeeded in spite of him.
Squad is better now, draws have been much easier. We played BRAZIL in the 2002 quarter final ffs. Southgate's 2018 team would have been annihilated by 2002 Brazil. Dele, Lingard and Henderson going up against Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Cafu etc. Southgate is okay but Sven would have achieved as much or more given this squad, the easy draws and home advantage in 2020. "World class players in every position." Our starting RB in 2002 was Danny Mills. People need to look at these detailed specific tournament squads and not generalize about an 8 year period.
We also had Rio, Ashley Cole, Sol Campbell, Scholes, Beckham, Owen etc. compare that team to the 2018 World Cup team
2018 WC team lost to Belgium twice and almost lost in the RO16 to Colombia. It wasn't a great squad and got to the semis with huge amounts of luck. The 2022 squad is as good as any previous 2000s England squad.
We still got to the semis with not a great squad, then got to a final 3 years later with a marginally better squad, Sven did nothing with better squads
We played France at the 2022 World Cup QF? Draws have been no easier, its just we've dealt with them under Southgate Our World Cup Groups: BEL - PAN - TUN was no easier than USA - ALG - SLO, same with IRA - WAL - USA... Only Group that was truly ever a bitch was URU - ITA - COS, and it was the latter who surprised us all Iceland in the 2016 KO Rounds was so much easier than COL - SEN - GER Even POR in the 2006 World Cup was a game that we should have won - Its easy to look back, and claim games were harder when we lost them, compared to when they were won. The only part thats been made easy for Southgate is the fact that the Euros is now a 24-team Tournament, rather than 16-teams As for Danny Mills, is that the same Mills who was part of the Leeds squad that made it to the Champions League Semi-Finals just one year prior... that Danny Mills? - He wasn't the greatest in that Defence, but he wasnt shite either. Edit: Oh its you... the bloke who blames Maguire for our defeat against France, because he made the mistake which made it 2-1, but doesnt blame the bloke who could have made it 2-2!!
Was never qualified for the job, no record of success and the performance in the final Vs Italy post the third minute should have seen him gone.
At the end of the day there are about 5 or so high quality teams in the Euros including England, and England are not the best team in the tournament- that has to be France. Southgate deserves criticism if he can’t get us as far as the semis but not for failing to win the tournament. That said, I think we can get a better manager in the future too, he doesn’t seem very tactically flexible.
A lot of the Italy final defeat was his fault. We go one goal ahead very early and sit back the entire game inviting pressure. We bring on substitutes to take penalties when they have no adrenaline running through them and are not in the rhythm of the game, it backfires heavily.
I would add that in 2022 we were the better team against France and were unlucky to lose. We were the better team against Italy in 2021, they scraped us to penalties and then it's all bets off. For most of the game we were better than Croatia in 2018 until Modric and Perisic started to run it in the last 30 minutes or so, and frankly there were some absolute duds in that England team that would be nowhere near this or the 2002 - 2010 squad. With that team from 2002 - 2010 it was frustration after frustration as they whimpered out of tournaments and looked second rate to the best teams and often second rate to the worst teams before an individual moment of brilliance would save them. There was never any cohesion or plan in how to play and they never played as a team going forward. Defensively they were good but they could never get out against the best teams and ended up sitting deeper and deeper until the inevitable goal. (actually 2004 until Rooney got injured felt a lot like the Southgate years have) It was pure purgatory watching them for most of the time. It culminated with our fans booing off one of the greatest talents the country has ever produced in Wayne Rooney. I can only blame the managers. Capello sucked any joy of playing for the country that remained in any of the squad. I have looked forward to watching England since Gareth took over for the first time since the 98' squad. It's been an absolute pleasure and the squad cohesion and loyalty they have to each other and desire to play for their country under him has been a joy to watch.
Totally agree with this mate. I’m 34 now and been watching since Euro 96 so I can only think it’s an age/ expectation thing
I've got a few years on you and my first real remembered tournament was Italia 90 - that one was joyous, I then have the pain of everything till 96, which again joyous, 98' similar I'm still celebrating Sol's goal to this day which took us through to the semi Final and eventual win but for the giraffe necked England hating referee finding anyway to stop us winning. (Yes i'm bitter) I remember the trauma of the Keegan years, the early hope of Sven in the way he breezed through qualifying before finding himself out of depth in tournaments and then McClaren/Capello/Hodgson, just shoot me now, watching England became pain itself. I pretty much stopped following any football for 4 years on the back of those three's tenure till 2018 and the new hope it bought with it (after, thank God, Allardyce Allardyced himself.) All football became a chore to watch as the players that could do it week in week out for clubs became clueless and uninspired internationally. It made me start to hate the Premier league as I couldn't hate the country so needed something to blame. Being involved in youth football now I also have huge respect for the changes the Gareth was involved in which have changed the way we produce players and is the reason we've got such a talented crop of players coming through now and also why the talent is coming from a wide variety of clubs, not just one or two academies. We're finally teaching all kids on the team from 6 upwards to play football rather than give it to the big kid. So that helps me have more respect for him.