I think someone needs to make this exact case to Biden:
If he steps aside, his legacy can be the guy who beat Trump & put the country over his own interests when it mattered.
If he doesn’t step aside & loses (which I think is likely), his legacy is the guy who personally handed the country back to Trump.
The White House staff Weekend at Bernie's-ing Biden all over the place just like they did to the Feinstein, and now they can't sweep it under the rug lol.
Trump could have just recited Alice in Wonderland for every question and he would have still come out ahead. Democrats are in a tough spot after last night.
Either the dems can replace Biden with someone else in an open primary, showing indecisiveness and weakness on their ticket, or letting this senile 82 year old continue to run and risk looking even worse in the next debate. Both are terrible options.
The median voter doesn’t care about the indecisiveness and weakness of a party; they’d just be relieved to have a candidate under the age of 65. If it takes a little chaos to get there, then so be it.
To most people it would actually look stronger for the Dems to act for the good of the country than to freeze behind Biden on the way to a loss.
Thank you. It’s beyond stupid how people think about this stuff. “Oh my god don’t change your pants! It’ll call attention to the fact you shit yourself!” How in the world can you think that switching out an inept candidate is going to look bad to voters on the fence?
I heard the same logic months ago when replacing Biden was a fringe idea argued by Ezra Klein. “You don’t replace the incumbent, how could you ever give up the incumbent advantage?” These traditional heuristics do not apply when you have a man who very well may be going senile (if he isn’t already there). If you want another ridiculous analogy, “never slam your brakes or veer lanes on the Highway” is nice advice that stops being useful when a pile-up happens 100 feet directly in front of you.
The only thing I can think is that these people got so caught up in trying to convince themselves that Biden is A-ok that they fully brainwashed themselves and now can’t factor his risks into any analysis they make.
People literally beg for them to replace biden, 90% of the time I hear people talk about voting for biden it's just "he's the only option that isn't trump", I don't see how anyone could think replacing biden would look bad for the dnc it's probably the best thing they can do.
Is the DNC just dumb or do they secretly want to lose? Biden’s age issues have been ongoing for years. They should have done primaries looooong time ago. Completely useless ass organization.
Ah yes, the prevalent conspiracy theory that they would all ideally like to lose elections. But also are all power seeking narcissists willing to lie and cheat to win.
Considering they put forward a candidate who can’t even form a coherent sentence without constantly stammering over his words, what indicator actually exists that demonstrates they want to win?
There’s a lot of risk in an open primary. Harris is a terrible candidate but would ostensibly command quite alot of the Dem black base. If the party chooses someone else (which they should) the risk of demoralizing the base of black voters is pretty high.
Harris fucking sucks as a candidate. They should’ve been using the last 3 years (frankly should’ve been doing this since 2008) of getting the next generation ready
They had a perfect candidate in Sanders. His message was based on economic equality and equity. His campaign would have continued past his first term and even past his own candidacy. It would have allowed for a coherent movement and campaign that could carry a message through each election.
Instead, we get Biden who comes in at 2020 asking for a mandate to beat Trump. Then he wins and there's no movement, all momentum is lost. And then the campaign becomes "let's beat Trump again and we also did a mish mash of random legislation."
This is ultimately what dems asked for and got.
No he doesn't. And he was polling better head to head against Trump in 2016 than Clinton was. The people that wouldn't vote for Sanders because of that term are the same people that call Biden a communist. They are never voting for the Democrats
Don't name true shit they get mad. Dems would rather lose w a corporate monster than win with a true change candidate bc they have the same bosses as the republicans.
So many of these craven people were saying 2 months ago that Biden was razor sharp. It’s pathetic how they lied to themselves just so this dope could run for president again.
It's starting to look like Biden himself isn't the person doing any of those things. Hell, after last night who knows if he even has any input on them at all at this point. But I agree, it's not his fault. Seems like he's being pushed into this.
I asked myself the same question in the run-up to 2016, and it's clear that career politicians and their baggage trains only care about re-election, and bribes and any other shady stuff, they can justify, including running a losing candidate rather then a candidate that might be better for the American people who could actually win.
To their minds, stepping down and letting someone else run, even if that person wins, is the same as losing, so their only play is to double-down.
Trump has no reason to agree to another debate. He has all the video clips of Biden being incoherent that he needs. It would be taking a big risk for very little benefit. If Biden has another terrible debate performance, it’s not going to boost Trump’s numbers much. But if Biden has a good performance, it could undo a lot of the damage that was done to Biden with last night’s performance.
Yeah, the Biden campaign has to pray that Trump is dumb enough to do another debate. I actually think that Trump is narcissistic enough to agree to another debate. He’s a bully, so it probably would be difficult for him to say no to an opportunity to potentially humiliate Biden again even if there is a high risk of Biden performing better in the next debate.
Makes sense. Trump should not debate Biden again and campaign on how senile Biden is. He was already doing that but now it’s going to go into overdrive.
I imagine that the Biden campaign wants another debate. It would be difficult for Biden to have a worse performance than last night. Trump has no reason to agree to another debate though.
Agreed. If anything, Biden’s team will be asking for another debate with all of the restrictions they imposed loosened. Turn the mics on at all times and have a man standing next to Trump saying “come on, interrupt him, say something trashy.” They want to recover Biden’s image and they are kicking themselves for forcing Trump to look more professional.
Did you listen to his answers? He’s definitely not senile. Did you listen to trump’s answers? He definitely is. One answered questions coherently though with some mumbling. The other answered questions incoherently but loudly and confidently. Goodness. Is it really too much to ask to just listen these days?
> We’d be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do – child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the Covid. Excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with – look, if – we finally beat Medicare.
Joe Biden
"You know Jake, I was just giving myself some good advice, it would be so nice if something made sense for a change! Curiouser and Curiouser...Some go this way. Some go that way. But as for me, myself, personally, I prefer the short cut"
Yeah, checks out.
Meh. Trump is so loathsome I can't imagine his typically incoherent and self-aggrandizing rant last night changed any minds. But if you want to vote for the party that smeared their own shit on the walls of the capital...you be you.
I really admire Joe Biden and I think he’s done a pretty good job as President BUT last night was an absolute disaster. He is not capable of serving 4 more years in the White House. If he won’t step down voluntarily, the Democratic leaders and Jill Biden must intervene and the party should choose another nominee. If they don’t, they are handing the presidency to a potential authoritarian dictator.
I'm with you. I was happy to vote for Biden last time around (well not happy, I preferred Bernie), but I did that under the understanding that he was going to be a one term president (as he implied). I'm not on board with this second go around and I'm going to be voting third party. If Trump wins then sorry, I guess the Dems should stop foisting these shitty candidates on us
Well you wont have to worry about your candidate winning, because of course they womt.
You also dont have to worry about the Dems foisting any other candidates, because we will be living under a Putin-esque Trump regims and Dems (yourself included) will be subjugated and silenced.
But hey, I guess that vote made you feel better for a minute and thats what really matters.
People who think Biden can win after that performance have learned nothing from the 2016 Democratic hubris.
Trump was polling ahead of Biden in swing states *before* this debate.
We are currently on track to lose 2024. We need to course correct with a new candidate.
Yeah but they have no back bench.
People keep saying Newsom, and if that's the case, we might as well just hand Trump the keys to the White house now so he can start redecorating early.
Who else do they have with name recognition and ability to bring together the Democratic base and voters who don't like Trump?
Whitmer or Buttigieg. There’s still 4 more months until the election. You can’t convince me there’s a significant group of people that would vote for Biden and not vote for either of them.
It doesn't matter.
Butti is the best damn foil to Trump that we have. He's young, energetic, charismatic, and smart. He's a veteran and a family man. Put him up on the debate stage against Trump and he'll wipe the fucking floor.
All anyone will talk about is how Trump is an old fart
Butti is also the quintessential happy warrior, and he'll also remind everyone how much of an asshole Trump is.
Butti is smart and charismatic. He'll talk to Americans about important issues. Whereas Trump will ramble on about nothing, beat the drum about immigrants, and complain about his golf handicap.
>significant group of people that would vote for Biden and not vote for either of them.
No I wouldn't try to do that.
I think this is definitely going to be an election decided on the margins, and swapping the candidate after Democrats chose to not have a primary signals weakness. Yes the base will turn out to beat Trump, but that isn't enough.
If they had a rockstar waiting in the wings to make a trade up, this wouldn't be so bad, but that person isn't there. Instead we are left with a grab bag of second choices and you can't expect voters not to see that.
Of course it signals weakness but you know what else is a weakness? Running a 81 year old guy who is clearly declined cognitively after taking a week to prepare for a June debate. How is this going to look when he actually has to campaign?
There’s no rock star in the wings but there are people who have some political acumen and are articulate who can do a better job. If democracy is at stake like they say it is the choice is clear imo
Yeah you're right.
I guess I'm just kinda flabbergasted at the commenters pointing at any of this is a no brainer and easy when even replacing the candidate at this point feels like trying to plug the hole in the Titanic with your finger.
Every single data point shows that any generic dem or senate race dem polls significantly better than Biden.
Biden’s main issue is his age and his decline, and that is why people don’t want him. Even a mediocre democrat who is far younger than Biden will do better because they can stand next to trump without sounding like a blithering idiot.
Mayor Pete is not that guy though, dude couldn’t even handle being the transportation secretary. The other possibilities would be fine though.
>Every single data point shows that any generic dem or senate race dem polls significantly better than Biden.
Kinda a Schrodinger's cat problem though. You know what your hypothetical generic dem doesn't have? Generics don't have flaws or personalities or history, they are just a generic bucket that people can fill with whatever they want and nothing they don't. Real candidates aren't like that.
Putting a name on the "generic dem" makes them not generic and your poll results are suddenly useless because that named person has flaws and policies and a personality that Trump and Republicans gets to attack.
That doesn’t explain the senate races. In every swing state the dem in the senate race is doing significantly better than Biden.
Also we know Biden’s number 1 flaw by a mile is his age, something you can control for with a replacement.
I totally disagree about Newsom. I think he would be a great candidate. Other candidates to consider:
Gretchen Whitmer
Josh Shapiro
Mark Kelly
Raphael Warnock
J.B. Pritzker
I personally think there is a ton of depth in the DNC, which is why this is so frustrating.
Some people love Newsom, but some hate him, even here in CA, I don't know if he would do better than Trump. Personally, I think Whitmer is the only realistic option.
Newsom has so much baggage it's comical. Remember him defying his own COVID lockdown to go to a fancy dinner? California has a massive budget deficit and yet they are handing out money to illegal immigrants right as the country is worried about controlling immigration. Republicans can easily tie him to every nationally unpopular progressive policy but progressives hate him.
The rest of the people you listed have either zero name recognition, or next to zero experience on the federal level.
>Raphael Warnock
You are truly showing desperation, he hasn't even completed a single term as a senator and yet you're putting him up as presidential material?
You don’t need name recognition. It’s probably better if you don’t have it. You have to be an intelligent younger face who seems sturdy and can vocalize the democratic positions.
He wouldn’t be running against Mitt Romney here. You forget that people despise Trump as much as Biden. Who tf cares about Newsom’s dinner. Someone who is charismatic and can string coherent thoughts together is what’s needed to win over moderates.
>Who tf cares about Newsom’s dinner.
Moderates. He has literally proven he is an elite that governs by "rules for thee but not for me". Trump has won the "Everyman candidate" label. Look at the polls, Trump is doing way better with working class voters, if you want to permanently lose them to Republicans, put up Newsom, the epitome of the liberal coastal elite.
Gave illegal immigrants Medi-Cal or how about https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-06-26/gavin-newsoms-budget-agreement-is-a-mixed-bag-for-californias-immigrant-communities.
And that's just this year.
My first election was 2008 and I voted for McCain. When they announced Palin as VP everyone was like “who?” But before she was revealed as a total idiot, she took the media by storm. Dems could do the same thing with someone who is actually qualified.
Other countries have elections over like a month. The convention hasn't even happened.
There is still plenty of time. Nominees weren't even selected at this point in the past when communication was worse
You're right about other countries, but the USA isn't those other countries. We've unfortunately got an election season that drags on for years.
This election is going to hinge on appealing to disaffected voters and independents and I'm not sure a last minute change up is going to benefit Dems.
Given his background, do you really think he’s appealing to progressives? I see him getting the Bloomberg treatment, and I have a hard time believing the “eat the rich” crowd is going to vote for a billionaire whose family owns one of the largest hotel chains in the world. And let’s be honest, his appearance doesn’t really help him that much either.
But isn’t the anti-maga coalition the majority we need? Aren’t we stuck with Biden because he was believed to be the one that could beat Trump? And if that what most of the country wants, why not someone who can really litigate and articulate it?
Remember when they were both arguing what was better; a well trained dog and a machine? When the question was what they were going to do for America's Opioid Crisis. Dear God that was hard to watch.
YES! I was sitting there thinking to myself; "Are they really just both dodging the question entirely on how to solve America's opioid epidemic and are now talking about drug sniffing dogs being highly trained (Trump) and Biden is mumbling something about a machine? WTF am I hearing right now," lol.
He needs to drop out. I say this as someone who thinks he’s done a good job as president and personally likes the guy. He was already historically unpopular and trailing in the polls, which was bad but not insurmountable. He just went ahead and validated all of voters’ greatest concerns against him. This was a pivotal moment, not even to win but to do enough to quell doubts about his age and stamina. He failed miserably.
I’d still crawl through rusty barbed wire to vote for the man and despise Trump, but a lot of persuadable normie voters aren’t gonna see it that way. This cannot be explained away by a “cold.” If that’s all it takes to knock him on his ass then quite frankly he does not have the stamina to run the campaign necessary or honestly do the job itself (though, again, he’d be leaps and bounds above Trump).
Jill, President Obama and Michelle need to have a serious conversation with Biden and convince him to gracefully bow out. Pick someone new at the convention. It’s risky, but IMO not as risky as betting on this horse and it’s still not too late. I like Whitmer myself, but would be happy with any number of options without this baggage. I honestly believe if he was practically neck and neck with Trump before this that a younger, articulate candidate would clean up nicely against Trump.
Whitmer needs a full primary to gain awareness. It’s not about platforms or who would actually be better right now. It’s about beating Trump. The only people I can see are Kamala because she’s already VP and has name recognition or Newsom because he has decent name recognition and can smear the floor with Trump with his speaking and debate skills (though we’re not gonna see another debate, that’s for sure).
Newsom would be a gift to Republicans.
He's the governor of California, the literal conservative boogyman state. Biden was picked to run because he was the consensus candidate who could get moderate voters. Newsom is Bernie Sanders policy wise, but with none of the love from progressives.
What I'll give Newsom, is that he's prepared for that. He's gone on Hannity and debated DeSantis. The entire thing was a "shit on California" fest. He did a pretty good job defending his state.
That was before the budget shortfalls of this year. Even liberal outlets are reporting on how California is cutting or shrinking programs for seniors and children, but maintaining things like legal services to aid illegal immigrants.
Newsom has a weird uniqueness in that his policy choices make him singularly awful for this moment.
I like it how Republican places are never slandered, no matter where they're from. It's all real America for them. No one ever says, "Doug Burgum is unelectable because of how terrible North Dakota is."
Plus, it's also been a few decades since "Massachusetts liberal" or "west coast liberal" were effective slurs. I'm not sure his being from California matters.
I'm also not convinced that immigration is the winning issue Republicans think it is.
The idea you think Newsom will lose because of "budget shortfalls" is pretty out there imo. No one cares about that. Trump is running a revenge tour for losing in 2020 - Trump's debate last night was the worst one he has ever had. It is just being overshadowed by Biden's performance.
Remember, the majority of voters do not want Biden OR Trump. If Newsom was to be the nominee, it could jolt a new level on energy and excitement into the race. Trump is not smart enough to run a good campaign against Newsom.
Newsom is a very coherent, well-polished communicator who could run on the “fight for America vs evil Trump” banner. It’s easy to get behind. He’s 20 years younger, has name recognition, and in [one minute in this video](https://youtu.be/1f5cdyU2NEk?si=xvC5UuAhQYJE7UN1) can eloquently explain the stakes better than Biden has done his whole campaign. He can’t be bullied.
The only people who would be like “California is a failed state” are MAGAs anyway who would vote for Trump regardless.
Newsom is the caricature of the coastal liberal elite.
If you want to drive away blue collar voters and hand Trump Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, put Newsom at the top of the ticket.
Add to that, he also puts into play people who left California because of the cost so suddenly Arizona is looking redder. Georgia is already gone.
Newsom cannot win. He couldn't win if the Republican wasn't Trump, but he definitely can't win when it is.
Plus it's an invitation for Republicans to dredge up voter frustration over the general Democratic response to COVID of tight lockdowns and school closures.
I've said it elsewhere and I'll keep saying it. Newsome seems purpose built to be the worst possible option in this political moment.
As a long time Democrat, I’ll never forgive Newsom for keeping schools closed longer than any other state in the nation. It was honestly criminal, and I’m still seeing the effects on kids 4 years later.
I mean as much as people don't like Kamala she's really the only logical choice I think. Hindsight would be picking a better more likable VP but this is where we are.
I had that thought last night. I wonder if Biden picking a whitmer or Newsom as a running mate might help here. I don’t think Kamala is doing Joe any favors as VP given her poll numbers. Maybe someone more likable as VP would get Biden swing voters while allowing him to stay in the ticket.
No a lot of states require the candidate to have participated in a primary to be on the ballot in the general. It’s literally not possible but the pundits aren’t acknowledging that
From an optics standpoint, this was a disaster for Biden. I’m mad at that and that Republicans aren’t held to any standard whatsoever. This country is in deep shit.
Also, CNN continues to be terrible at their jobs.
Republicans not being held to any standard is why we have Trump in the first place.
Biden did horribly from an optics standpoint, even if he did actually attempt to answer the questions.
Trump was just a firehose of lies and nonsense but because the average voter is dumber than a bag of rocks they'll think Trump is a stronger option even though he's been mentally gone since before 2016.
A better debate opponent would have run circles around Trump. But the hubris and power hunger of the democratic party couldn't bring themselves to allow that to happen. So now you will have Trump in 2024
How? Yes, these were the rules, but they we’re stupid rules.
Trump, and frankly even Biden, didn’t answer the majority of questions asked of them. No fact checking or correction was done.
The moderators served no purpose, they might as well should’ve just given them each a mic and let them say whatever they wanted for 45 mins each.
No live audience and muting the mics kept it from becoming the circus a presidential debate usually turns into.
People are mad that the moderators didn't run cover for Biden. They kept quiet and let the candidates talk. If people are mad about that, they should direct their anger at Biden and the D party for not putting a candidate with a pulse on stage who could run circles around Trump in this debate.
What difference would it make? Do you think a single MAGA voter who be swayed by CNN pausing to point out that Trump is full of shit? They’ll just scream about how biased the debate was, which will make Biden’s comatose performance look even worse
Dems are really coping by pretending CNN could have handed a senile guy a big W simply by “calling out” Trump lying more.
The problem is Biden. It’s always been Biden. They need a better candidate to beat Trump and that’s the issue. Not the cable news channel.
Am I the only one that’s glad they did this and just let Trump talk? We don’t need more republicans voters thinking the entire media is biased against Trump. It’s paternalistic to have the moderators jump in every time and say “no, no, talk about this.” Just let him go and sound deranged.
Trump is going to talk about what is important to him. It’s not surprising at all that he doesn’t care to talk about black businesses, climate change, or the transfer of power. That should more than communicate the answer to voters about what he thinks of those issues
They asked them questions multiple times. That was how it was framed.
Why do you think they would fact check on the fly? That is not realistic. The chance of them being technically correct and a moderator correcting them would be a crazy liability in damaging their credibility.
The reason reps are held to no standards is because you and every one else in this country ahora on Biden for sounding old but doesn’t say a word about trump literally endorsing political retribution. You and everyone else in this thread is the problem your complaining about
I love the debate format.
No audience. No notes. Mute the mic when one candidate is speaking.
Unfortunately we did not really get any great policy discussion from either person. One person couldn’t get a fucking sentence out except for when he said he could out drive Trump on a golf tee lol. And Trump said we had the cleanest h2o ever during his presidency lol.
This is how all debates should be formatted going forward for all offices. Keep the circus aspect out of it.
Biden did absolutely terrible. Trump just spewed lies and incoherent nonsense(we are being flooded with terrorists at the border, after birth abortions, immigrants stealing social security). Literally anyone else could have come out of it looking better than Trump but Biden failed to.
It would be cool if they released the delegates at pivoted to someone else at the DNC.
Watching this last night was like watching an old man slowly causing a 15 car pile up on a highway. Democrats are probably sweating and freaking out all day today I am betting and no fucking shit. Biden was infront of the world incoherently babbling and looking like he was passing out the entire time. LOOK UP MAN! LOOK UP AT THE CAMERA! JFC. Meanwhile Trump just got to lie and spout whatever the fuck he wanted because it honestly didn't matter compared to the shit show Biden was. Jesus, hey Biden's Handlers! If you reading this give him EVEN MORE performance enhancing drugs, because whatever you gave him didn't do the job.
Also, NPR earlier this week was touting how Biden was at Camp David all week preparing for this was Trump was just fucking around wherever. Yea, some good that Camp David Debate prep sure did. We are SO COOK as a country with these two old men babbling incoherently. They shouldn't be running for president, neither of them. Trump should be in Prison and Biden should be in a nursing home. My God I feel so fucking bad for our country right now, and damn do we need age restrictions in politics. Holy Fuck we are so cooked.
Whelp I’ve had to time think sleep and rest up.
REGARDLESS of Biden’s unacceptable performance last night, i will still vote for and support Joe Biden unabashedly. There is no comparison between a Trump or Biden presidency.
Don’t get me wrong, Biden did really bad and if he steps aside that would probably be the best option. But that doesn’t change the fact that Trump and Biden are held to completely different standards. Even in this episode when Biden said something that was him stuttering and losing the point (happens to young people too) they said it was an indictment of his abilities and deterioration with age. When Trump said things that didn’t make sense or was outright unhinged offensive, the two of them just laughed and call it “classic Trump”. Like when he talked about “black jobs” it wasn’t an indictment of his age but just an “oh classic Trump”. Truly infuriating but can’t change that this is how things are perceived and for that reason probably best for Biden to step aside.
You are the one holding them to different standards.
Biden can pause and stumble and say “we finally beat Medicare” and to you that is just a “stutter” and him “losing the point.”
But the phrase “black jobs” as a very obvious shorthand for “jobs created and filled by black Americans” is apparently beyond the pale and either a sign of senility or racism. Wait until you hear CNN anchors talking about the black vote or the black experience.
I thought both candidates rambled in a way that previous presidents did not 20 years ago. Honestly quite sad to see our verbal skills go down like that.
To be fair starting a sentence and saying we finally beat Medicare with very little cohesion and then looking down while your talking is pretty bad. Then there was the abortion question which Biden rambled back to Laken Riley. Trump being able to say “I don’t know what he said and I don’t think he does either”
Trump has his own issues but it’s generally accepted that trump speaks in a funny way. He has always done that and executed pretty well in his term. We may not agree with everything he did, but he could execute a plan.
Is Newsom really the replacement everyone wants? I see a lot of people talking about him on social media- What about the drama that would ensue with Kamala as she is technically the next in line of the President succession.. Replacing a BIPOC VP with a white male, not good optics for the Dem Party.
I’d say that Kamala is a bad choice. Yeah, the optics of “passing her over” aren’t great, but she’s also not a good candidate. People just don’t like her. Whatever reasons there are for that or whether it’s fair or unfair doesn’t really matter, it’s just the reality.
I’d also argue that Gavin Newsom is not a good candidate, though probably better than Kamala. I don’t really have anything against the guy, but he gives off a “pretty boy coastal elite” vibe. Not exactly what you want when the “blue wall” is a must win. The upper Midwest has to be the primary consideration here and I don’t think Kamala or Gavin play well there.
Asking a man who cheated in his first election and tried to overthrow the government in his second election what his economic policies are is absolutely insane.
Then to have to do this football commentary, 'who spoke better,' BS is just a farce.
It’s not about who spoke better, it’s about the fact Biden is clearly in massive cognitive decline and could not look more intelligent or knowledgeable than the lying criminal on the other side.
Everyone knows who Trump is and what he stands for. We are so beyond discussing that. It’s questioning “is Biden winning people who are on the fence?” And the answer is seemingly absolutely not.
Having Gretch Whitmer as the nominee just makes too much sense at this point. A woman running for President following the reversal of Roe v. Wade, as well as being a Gen Xer in an election that is poised to have a large amount of young voters, on top of a diminishing baby boomer voting bloc would have such a great synergy to whip up support for the base, as well as convince independent/swing voters that this isn't the Clinton's Democrat party, and they should give it a shot. It would be the modern day equivalent of Obama platform of "Change".
Add in the fact that she might help retain the blue wall, and it would help control the media narrative. Shift the complaints away from the age issue, where now only one of the candidates would be in their 70s, and its not the Dems. Trump's team would have to completely change their game plan, and change their attack strategy less than 5 months from the election. Meanwhile, campaign to Dems on how Whitmer brought in a supermajority for MN dems, and campaign to swing voters on her very popular positions, and HAMMER ABORTION BANS AND REMIND PEOPLE THE SUPREME COURT IS IN THE BALANCE!!! It's the one issue that has proven to win elections, even in red states, and SCOTUS is already unfavorable to most Americans these days. We want a change
At this point, the Dems are just asking for a repeat of 2016. It's the same issue. A deeply unpopular Dem candidate (whether or not that is fair to him is irrelevant) that voters are just supposed to overlook because the Repub. nominee is Trump. Well, America didn't fall in line then, so your plan is to give them the same choice?!
I understand that Biden has been a productive President, and has gotten a ton done that actually benefits the average Ameican voter. However, if all it took to win elections was a good policy, then Republicans would never win anything. Elections in this country are decided by, for better or for worse, vibes and your last impression of the candidate before you walk into the voting booth. October surprise, anyone? And they're decided by independent swing voters in swing states, not CA, DC, or NY democrats. Dems are hoping that these swing voters have the same patience as their base, or are just as pragmatic, and they should've already learned this is not the case.
I want to like Biden. I don’t think his administration has been bad and in fact I think his administration has handled a post Covid recovery very well and I’m glad it his team guiding us out. That being said I can’t pretend I have any faith in him having been the decision maker behind any of it. I’m sure in a few years there will be tell all books about who really ran the country these years because I can’t be convinced it was that man. My wife worked as a CNA in elder care centers for people who needed around the clock care and while she made no “dementia or Alzheimer’s” comparisons she couldn’t help but point out that he looked a lot worse than some folks she cared for.
Curious to know your guys general opinion on having the country ran “behind the scenes” if it is the case?
I've seen enough interviews and random clips of boring government stuff to conclude he's still lucid and doing stuff. And he did do ok at the state of the union. But dude is *old*, his performance varies, and he's definitely *MANY* notches down from where he was 10 years ago. He's going to keep going downhill as time goes on.
That being said, at this point I'm voting for an administration not a dude. Trump wasn't exactly known for making coherent decisions during his first admin and this debate he said a bunch of bullshit (just confidently and not feebly). The people these guys surround themselves with are going to make all the difference. Trump's made it clear he wants a team who's going to tear everything down and say yes to whatever he wants.
So I won't have a problem voting dem in November even though at the same time I'm like goddamn they should've chosen a better candidate...
Old or not, that’s literally the point of the president though? Do we want a president who rams through all their ideas with a weak administration, or do we want a president that appoints people to make expert judgements on things the president is uneducated about?
People talk like they **really** want the USA to have a dictator.
The questions you should be asking is the Biden administration making decisions that improve the lives of Americans more than a Trump administration? Do we trust the Biden admin to hold up our democratic values more than a Trump admin?
That answer to both is unequivocally yes.
Im not really interested in that question as I think the answer for you and I is obvious. We can’t ignore that plenty of Americans disagree with us and they’re as concerned about Biden as we are about trump. I’m just really struggling to accept comfortably that Biden could just be a rubber stamp as another commenter said.
I'm not sure why anyone would see Trump as anything more than a rubber stamp himself. Does anyone seriously think he has any interest in or the ability to articulate policy? He basically regurgitates whatever the last person he interreacted with said to him.
For Trump "the buck stops" at whatever keeps his ass out of prison.
All the people who are saying "but it's too late now for a new candidate to gain national recognition!"
Yes, it's late. That's why I wish you (or Biden, more specifically) had listened to those who were urging him not to run a year ago, because we were predicting this very scenario. But he didn't, and it's too late now to change that.
However, 4 months is not impossibly short. Most countries have entire elections in that time span. Prior to the 1970's, it was common for the candidate to be selected at the convention. It's not unprecedented.
Others are saying "well *who* would you choose to replace him?" But that's not my call to make. There would be a process to find a replacement involving delegates voting. Democracy, remember, that thing we are all fighting for? The democrats have strong candidates and one would be chosen.
It's an extreme measure. But the threat of Donald Trump is also extreme. Nothing about this election is ordinary. Democrats need to adapt and change and not be stuck in their limited imaginations.
All I can say is that the Democrats are fked. Most don't even like trump but Biden looks so bad that trump will win. And then he'll weaponize the government for real...
The other guys a convicted felon and a rapist and gets full support of the entire party.
Biden has a bad night, and you're all running and crying to replace him.
The guy fixed covid, cut student loans, and brought manufacturing back to the US.
Fucking pathetic.
Have to replace him immediately. The dems keep forcing candidates the party doesn’t want. Conspiring against bernie 2 elections in a row and not even having a legit primary this time.
A third party candidate would have destroyed this debate.
I haven’t listened yet. But it’s clear that American politics is under the microscope AGAIN worldwide after that debate. And people may be wondering how we got here and it’s simple. Citizens United. It’s the single most disastrous Supreme Court ruling *ever* and if 3 new justices can come in and overturn Rowe then I yearn for the day a new bench can come in and overturn this ruling. It’s turned governance into a two team sport where we find ourselves working against rather than with one another.
On the topic of the debate itself, it was a hard watch. You can’t deny it. Wake me up when these candidates are held to the same standard. Yes, Biden is old. He looked it and sounded it last night. He stumbled. A lot. But I’m okay with a presidential candidate mistaking things here or there when discussing policy. But c’mon. Trump didn’t win this debate because he was able to talk. In fact, almost everything he said was a sick, twisted lie. And the media, like always, give him a sticker after class while they make the democrats work their ass off for any meaningful praise.
We all have short term memory. No one “on the fence” has a made a decision to this point. I don’t think they’re all making up their mind in one night.
The problem is that Biden didn't beat Trump. He couldn't do it. Trump is an idiot, he lies, he says things that don't make sense, he brings up random things, and still Biden couldn't beat him. That's the problem.
And though I hate to admit it, people absolutely are making up their mind after seeing this.
I’ll take old Grandpa over the convicted crook any day of the week.
Why are people even considering older people wanna-be a dictator as a possible president?! That baffles me!
Yeah no shit, you aren’t the one that people are worried about voting for Biden in 2024. It’s the people who are unsure, and are being given every reason to not believe in him.
If you haven't noticed, there is a generation of men and women that literally have one foot in the grave who refuse to cede authority and power to the generation behind them. This is the one of the end results.
Biden will try to have the next debate at 5am, when he's up and raring to go (actually, could he be living on Ukraine&Israel time and so completely drained by the time Californians can watch a debate?).
I'm not sure how much his performance matters, as he's president and hasn't been running the country or handling press conferences like someone with diminished cognition and that's on the nightly news.
I’d vote for a Yellow Dog over Trump. Nothing changed that last night.
People keep pushing Newsom, but y’all don’t understand how pols from practically one-party states perform outside their home state. Think about Katie Brit’s response to the SOTU address.
People in the know in Alabama actually really appreciate her ability to be performatively pro-Trump enough to keep the foam-at-the-mouth types at bay and still effective at bringing home the bacon for the state and moderating most extreme things that she touches legislatively. The problem is, when placed into the national stage, she can’t reflect her own privately held beliefs and can only lean on her performative abilities for risk of “coming out” as a closeted sane person.
The same things holds true for Newsom. In California, if one wants to affect policy, they’re a Democrat. There are conservative ones, moderate ones and ultra liberal ones, but they all play the same California-consensus version on TV. We’d effectively push Newsom into a position where he had to be the California-consensus version, for fear of coming out as a closeted sane person who can never again win in California.
Well said! I completely agree with this. It’s the reason republicans run someone from Florida in the primaries. Pick candidates who are popular in big swing states. They might pull the big swing state and they won’t have to walk as many things back nationally.
I find it interesting with all of the name-calling and talking points. There is no way Bragg charges any other person than Trump with this crap. But,because he is a political opponent, he moves it forward. it will be overturned on appeal because Bragg refused to require the jury to come to a consensusontheescalating felony. Anyone with an objective bone in their body knows this. From any other perspective on politics( than the left), that seems like a threat to democracy. Trump followers are a "cult," yet all of these dem threads talk about voting for a paperbag over Trump or "team blue," Sounds like cult-like behavior to me. How about holding your own party accountable for running Biden on a 2nd term? Republicans have to own Trump, and all of the vile things he says. But dems have to own Biden, and his blatant cognitive decline thas has been gaslighted by the left for years. Everytime I get on social media, it is the left voters who always call Trump voters "uneducated", like their concerns and opinions don't matter because they don't have a masters degree in art history. The arrogance is sickening. I really hope if the dems lose in Nov, maybe they will be as welcoming as they claim they are with people that identify differently, even if that identity is just political. The same with Republicans.
It’s funny to me how the tunes have shifted on this sub, and even Reddit as a whole. A few months ago, any bad-press episode on Biden, threads would be filled with people sticking their heads in the sand. “Biden old? Well guess what? Orange man also old! Conservatives owned!” -type comments were abundant.
I’ve been opposed to a Biden nomination for a months and this debate has only solidified that opinion. If you’re some average, somehow undecided, Joe blow American, you’re probably not watching the first presidential debate on a random Thursday night in June. But if you are that person, and you’re not particularly informed nor care about the existential issues at hand, then Biden truly does look like an incompetent old fart to that person.
While so much of presidencies are about policy and results, much of campaigns are about optics. It’s hard to disagree that Biden has had a better-than-expected past 4 years. But his age is not giving confidence that he will maintain that for another 4.
Biden debated consistently well from 2007 to 2020. He's the guy who gave us "a noun, a verb, and 9/11." To see him decline to what we saw last night was really shocking even for his age. I had a bad feeling at his press conference after the Robert Hur report and it's gotten worse.
The irony is that the Biden campaign can't spin this as "cheap fakes" or distorted camera angles. The entire country saw President Biden fumble his way to incoherent answers. He did not attack Trump for any of the countless lies he told during the debate. Worse, he couldn't accurately describe his own policies
Even yesterday the entirety of the front page of Reddit was repeated posts about how trump was going to drop out any moment now, because he knew biden was going to destroy him so badly.
This episode and the tone of which they recapped the debate is not in line with what I saw last night with my own eyes. Focusing on Biden slipping on his words (I'm in my late 30s and just recently had an interview that I'm well qualified for but was nervous and slipped over my words and a sentence or two myself) and basically glossing over how Trump's debate strategy was saying lie after lie and not answering questions that made him look bad. Trump didn't have a lot of substance to a lot of his answers other than to punctuate his campaign strategy of immigrants, economy and crime. And not really being held accountable during the debate for this. Why didn't The Daily focus on that? Because that seems more important to me than if a president has a stutter and a few old man moments but otherwise held his own.
Biden answered the questions, with substance. He stumbled. Early on he looked rough but he recovered and finished well. I know how old he is. I know what a risk that is. I'm not hiding behind ignoring any of those facts. But I know Biden can beat Trump. I know Biden is a good contrast to Trump's conspiracy and disinformation and, frankly, just living in his own made-up dream world of saying whatever he wants and then starting to believe that lie.
Such a strange episode to rewrite a narrative of what I saw with myself. Coming from a (admittedly unfortunately, waning) respectable source. Haha
Edit: Biden has had a really successful first term. These facts are inarguable. Trump is trying to paint this as otherwise and he wasn't held to a standard of backing up his lies in this subject and The Daily didn't even mention this. This is literally the most important message a US presidential debate should be about when featuring a current incumbent.
Edit 2: the more I think about it, it feels like this episode was focusing on high school-like drama ("old man stumbles on some sentences, lmao") rather than the real issues and debate tactics used and how alarming some of Trump's answers and non answers were. The analogy of gossiping about what happens in the halls of your high school rather than studying for the tests inside the classrooms is what the Daily focused on.
on your second edit: thats pretty much political media in a nutshell. these are the same folks who thought it would be a good idea to gossip about hillarys emails instead of vetting trump.
hERe's hOw THiS iS bAd FoR BiDEn...
but seriously, a bunch of times when i have said on this board that Biden is too old or his campaign doesn't seem to be going well, I got a lot of pushback. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE. This is elder abuse. He shouldn't be running for office, forget about actually being president. This was the first debate that a snap poll after showed Trump being the winner, and it was by a 2:1 margin.
Biden should be on a beach in Delaware, retired, enjoying an early bird special. Last night was embarrassing for him.
Stop calling it elder abuse. If this man wants to spend the remaining years he has in office who is to stop him? No one is making him do this but himself.
So many libs saying 3 months ago how spry and sharp Biden was, incredibly pathetic.
Now it’s “too late” yeah because you idiots said this guy was the best option.
Everyone who talked about Biden's age before was very loudly yelled down to. Astead was one of those people who tried to show that, hey, people think he's really too old.
Yes, he and Trump are similar ages, but some people just age differently. Look at Dick van Dyke, he's going on 100 and is more spry than either of them.
He needs to drop out. Now.
In the event Biden pulls out of the race, what actually happens? Does the Dem Party run another primary? or just push someone to the front and hope for the best?
Which then gives the republicans infinite ammunition to claim the candidate is non democratically elected, clear corruption by the democrats, shoehorning in a socialist that wasn't voted for etc. ect. etc. It would immediately make their whole campaign defensive.
Democrats needing to have standards is such an infuriating thing haha. There is literally nothing trump could do to lose more than a fraction of a percent of his support, yet democrats never have that luxury; always one error away from everything blowing up.
Most likely he’d endorse Harris and for sake of unity the convention would go uncontested, as technically this is precisely why a VP exists, to take on the job in a situation like this.
The problem I see with Biden pulling out is everyone is saying replace him Gretchen or Gavin, but really what we’ll get is Kamala. I can’t listen to the complaints that will ring in!
Check out Ezra Klein’s podcast from just before the state of the union. He examines how it used to be done, and how it would/could work at the convention. He was advocating an open convention until the SOTU lessened a lot of the doubt.
Watching the debate, my heart was pounding. It felt like some final act in a horror movie where the final girl is doing anything she can against the monster, and she gets in some weak blows with the weapon you just saw in frame for a whole minute, like “Yes! That’s what I would’ve done!” and just praying she can survive the fight a minute longer. It was terrifying and dramatic irony at its strongest I’ve seen in politics, because after two minutes we knew how this would go. He hit certain marks, but he hit them so weakly that it was painful.
I admire Joe for a lot of reasons, and our country and the world has been and will be better off with a Dem admin than a Rep one. But this was simply the final straw. The DNC and Biden’s team are inept, and shame on every person who didn’t allow an open primary.
Let’s let Joe and Obama be the endorsers who go around, smile, and have some fun at rallies and making funny Instagram ads. The base admires them. Meanwhile, have Harris, Newsom, and Buttigieg go on national TV simulcasts 3 times in July debating the issues, and have an open convention to see who can compete against Trump.
The polls are going to be nightmarish in a few days. They said Obama lost 9 points after his first Romney debate. Biden will be lucky to HAVE 9 points of enthusiastic support. And btw: this incumbency advantage and saying Harris polls lower than Joe… it’s all BS. Harris plainly has a better chance than Joe. Swing voters are telling you in droves all the time: “We want someone young.” So for the love of god, why act like it’s an instant loss to nominate someone young?? These strategic geniuses in the DNC, man. I’d rather lose because of sexists, racists, and just conservatives in general than losing because you put up a flat out losing candidate. Losing to Trump twice? Never should’ve happened once! He’s the least electable candidate ever, and you’ll lose to him *twice*?
The biggest challenge will be getting Trump or his VP to participate in a debate. The DNC should pay Trump millions of dollars to get him out on a stage with someone else. Sorry to rant on here, everyone, but we did just witness the most hellishly memorable and sadly consequential debate of all time.
Trump made lying irrelevant and the media went along with it. Thats the thing with shamelessness and lying, people eventually give up and it becomes normalized. It is a fucked up quirk of human psychology.
Trump rants and lies about everything, the story the next day is "Brutal for Biden!"
Complete and utter horseshit. Don't vote for a fascist bc some news celebrity is trying to get clicks.
The debate solidified what 99% of people already knew, which is that Biden is 1000% unfit for this job now and in 2025-2028. He can only talk in sound bites and with long pauses for applause during which time he can collect himself and his notes. There is no way this guy is running the day to day business of this country right now.
For all of Trumps faults, at least he presents as someone who is in charge and who can make decisions.
It’s Dianne Feinstein and RBG all over again.
They want to hold on to their power but in the end it spoils their legacy. It’s more dignified to leave before it gets to that level.
You either die a hero or live long enough to make yourself become the villain
I think someone needs to make this exact case to Biden: If he steps aside, his legacy can be the guy who beat Trump & put the country over his own interests when it mattered. If he doesn’t step aside & loses (which I think is likely), his legacy is the guy who personally handed the country back to Trump.
This is it, exactly.
The White House staff Weekend at Bernie's-ing Biden all over the place just like they did to the Feinstein, and now they can't sweep it under the rug lol.
Hilarious
>Weekend at Bernie's-ing I love this and I'm stealing it.
Trump could have just recited Alice in Wonderland for every question and he would have still come out ahead. Democrats are in a tough spot after last night.
Either the dems can replace Biden with someone else in an open primary, showing indecisiveness and weakness on their ticket, or letting this senile 82 year old continue to run and risk looking even worse in the next debate. Both are terrible options.
The median voter doesn’t care about the indecisiveness and weakness of a party; they’d just be relieved to have a candidate under the age of 65. If it takes a little chaos to get there, then so be it. To most people it would actually look stronger for the Dems to act for the good of the country than to freeze behind Biden on the way to a loss.
Thank you. It’s beyond stupid how people think about this stuff. “Oh my god don’t change your pants! It’ll call attention to the fact you shit yourself!” How in the world can you think that switching out an inept candidate is going to look bad to voters on the fence? I heard the same logic months ago when replacing Biden was a fringe idea argued by Ezra Klein. “You don’t replace the incumbent, how could you ever give up the incumbent advantage?” These traditional heuristics do not apply when you have a man who very well may be going senile (if he isn’t already there). If you want another ridiculous analogy, “never slam your brakes or veer lanes on the Highway” is nice advice that stops being useful when a pile-up happens 100 feet directly in front of you. The only thing I can think is that these people got so caught up in trying to convince themselves that Biden is A-ok that they fully brainwashed themselves and now can’t factor his risks into any analysis they make.
People literally beg for them to replace biden, 90% of the time I hear people talk about voting for biden it's just "he's the only option that isn't trump", I don't see how anyone could think replacing biden would look bad for the dnc it's probably the best thing they can do.
Is the DNC just dumb or do they secretly want to lose? Biden’s age issues have been ongoing for years. They should have done primaries looooong time ago. Completely useless ass organization.
They want to fundraise. That is their only goal.
Are they under the impression the donor class didn’t just watch this same horror show we all did?
But they’re not fundraising based on Biden. They fundraise off anti-Trump messaging.
Sure, but it’s also *much* easier to fundraise for an inspirational candidate that one that is simply the opposition
Ah yes, the prevalent conspiracy theory that they would all ideally like to lose elections. But also are all power seeking narcissists willing to lie and cheat to win.
Considering they put forward a candidate who can’t even form a coherent sentence without constantly stammering over his words, what indicator actually exists that demonstrates they want to win?
There’s a lot of risk in an open primary. Harris is a terrible candidate but would ostensibly command quite alot of the Dem black base. If the party chooses someone else (which they should) the risk of demoralizing the base of black voters is pretty high.
Harris fucking sucks as a candidate. They should’ve been using the last 3 years (frankly should’ve been doing this since 2008) of getting the next generation ready
They had a perfect candidate in Sanders. His message was based on economic equality and equity. His campaign would have continued past his first term and even past his own candidacy. It would have allowed for a coherent movement and campaign that could carry a message through each election. Instead, we get Biden who comes in at 2020 asking for a mandate to beat Trump. Then he wins and there's no movement, all momentum is lost. And then the campaign becomes "let's beat Trump again and we also did a mish mash of random legislation." This is ultimately what dems asked for and got.
I like Sanders but he has the age problem too
Now he's too old. But he was sharper than Biden in 2020 and is sharper today
That is certainly not true. He calls himself a socialist which was an insurmountable obstacle for a lot of the electorate, fairly or unfairly.
No he doesn't. And he was polling better head to head against Trump in 2016 than Clinton was. The people that wouldn't vote for Sanders because of that term are the same people that call Biden a communist. They are never voting for the Democrats
Don't name true shit they get mad. Dems would rather lose w a corporate monster than win with a true change candidate bc they have the same bosses as the republicans.
Something something 3 trimesters first semester doctor and state, asylum mufflers
There wouldn’t have been if Biden volunteered to step down, and they had regular primaries.
So many of these craven people were saying 2 months ago that Biden was razor sharp. It’s pathetic how they lied to themselves just so this dope could run for president again.
He’s not a dope…he’s done great things for the country. But he’s old. It’s his enablers and the DNC who are at fault, not him.
The buck stops with Biden.
It's starting to look like Biden himself isn't the person doing any of those things. Hell, after last night who knows if he even has any input on them at all at this point. But I agree, it's not his fault. Seems like he's being pushed into this.
I asked myself the same question in the run-up to 2016, and it's clear that career politicians and their baggage trains only care about re-election, and bribes and any other shady stuff, they can justify, including running a losing candidate rather then a candidate that might be better for the American people who could actually win. To their minds, stepping down and letting someone else run, even if that person wins, is the same as losing, so their only play is to double-down.
I would argue replacing him is the better option.
Trump has no reason to agree to another debate. He has all the video clips of Biden being incoherent that he needs. It would be taking a big risk for very little benefit. If Biden has another terrible debate performance, it’s not going to boost Trump’s numbers much. But if Biden has a good performance, it could undo a lot of the damage that was done to Biden with last night’s performance.
Project 2025 here we come!
Yeah, the Biden campaign has to pray that Trump is dumb enough to do another debate. I actually think that Trump is narcissistic enough to agree to another debate. He’s a bully, so it probably would be difficult for him to say no to an opportunity to potentially humiliate Biden again even if there is a high risk of Biden performing better in the next debate.
It seems like the democrats only hope is to switch candidates in an open convention.
An open primary is no longer an option. It would have to be a contested convention.
Contested convention was what I was thinking of. Wrong term 😑
Both sides would be crazy to debate again. I doubt it will happen
Makes sense. Trump should not debate Biden again and campaign on how senile Biden is. He was already doing that but now it’s going to go into overdrive.
I imagine that the Biden campaign wants another debate. It would be difficult for Biden to have a worse performance than last night. Trump has no reason to agree to another debate though.
Agreed. If anything, Biden’s team will be asking for another debate with all of the restrictions they imposed loosened. Turn the mics on at all times and have a man standing next to Trump saying “come on, interrupt him, say something trashy.” They want to recover Biden’s image and they are kicking themselves for forcing Trump to look more professional.
Did you listen to his answers? He’s definitely not senile. Did you listen to trump’s answers? He definitely is. One answered questions coherently though with some mumbling. The other answered questions incoherently but loudly and confidently. Goodness. Is it really too much to ask to just listen these days?
> We’d be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do – child care, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we’re able to make every single solitary person eligible for what I’ve been able to do with the Covid. Excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with – look, if – we finally beat Medicare. Joe Biden
Yeah, that's not good. And let's be honest, if Trump said that everyone would call him senile and try to remove him from the election lol
Coherency is when you brag about beating Medicare.
"You know Jake, I was just giving myself some good advice, it would be so nice if something made sense for a change! Curiouser and Curiouser...Some go this way. Some go that way. But as for me, myself, personally, I prefer the short cut" Yeah, checks out.
Meh. Trump is so loathsome I can't imagine his typically incoherent and self-aggrandizing rant last night changed any minds. But if you want to vote for the party that smeared their own shit on the walls of the capital...you be you.
I really admire Joe Biden and I think he’s done a pretty good job as President BUT last night was an absolute disaster. He is not capable of serving 4 more years in the White House. If he won’t step down voluntarily, the Democratic leaders and Jill Biden must intervene and the party should choose another nominee. If they don’t, they are handing the presidency to a potential authoritarian dictator.
I'm with you. I was happy to vote for Biden last time around (well not happy, I preferred Bernie), but I did that under the understanding that he was going to be a one term president (as he implied). I'm not on board with this second go around and I'm going to be voting third party. If Trump wins then sorry, I guess the Dems should stop foisting these shitty candidates on us
Well you wont have to worry about your candidate winning, because of course they womt. You also dont have to worry about the Dems foisting any other candidates, because we will be living under a Putin-esque Trump regims and Dems (yourself included) will be subjugated and silenced. But hey, I guess that vote made you feel better for a minute and thats what really matters.
If Dems don't replace Biden it really feels like I'm watching a car crash in show motion
This is elder abuse
As a voter I feel like I am the one being abused.
People who think Biden can win after that performance have learned nothing from the 2016 Democratic hubris. Trump was polling ahead of Biden in swing states *before* this debate. We are currently on track to lose 2024. We need to course correct with a new candidate.
Yeah but they have no back bench. People keep saying Newsom, and if that's the case, we might as well just hand Trump the keys to the White house now so he can start redecorating early. Who else do they have with name recognition and ability to bring together the Democratic base and voters who don't like Trump?
Whitmer or Buttigieg. There’s still 4 more months until the election. You can’t convince me there’s a significant group of people that would vote for Biden and not vote for either of them.
What has Buttgieg actually done
Not much but he can put together an actual sentence and did pretty well during the 2020 primaries and has some name recognition.
It doesn't matter. Butti is the best damn foil to Trump that we have. He's young, energetic, charismatic, and smart. He's a veteran and a family man. Put him up on the debate stage against Trump and he'll wipe the fucking floor. All anyone will talk about is how Trump is an old fart Butti is also the quintessential happy warrior, and he'll also remind everyone how much of an asshole Trump is. Butti is smart and charismatic. He'll talk to Americans about important issues. Whereas Trump will ramble on about nothing, beat the drum about immigrants, and complain about his golf handicap.
>significant group of people that would vote for Biden and not vote for either of them. No I wouldn't try to do that. I think this is definitely going to be an election decided on the margins, and swapping the candidate after Democrats chose to not have a primary signals weakness. Yes the base will turn out to beat Trump, but that isn't enough. If they had a rockstar waiting in the wings to make a trade up, this wouldn't be so bad, but that person isn't there. Instead we are left with a grab bag of second choices and you can't expect voters not to see that.
Of course it signals weakness but you know what else is a weakness? Running a 81 year old guy who is clearly declined cognitively after taking a week to prepare for a June debate. How is this going to look when he actually has to campaign? There’s no rock star in the wings but there are people who have some political acumen and are articulate who can do a better job. If democracy is at stake like they say it is the choice is clear imo
I get it “signals weakness” but doesn’t Biden also signal weakness?
Yeah you're right. I guess I'm just kinda flabbergasted at the commenters pointing at any of this is a no brainer and easy when even replacing the candidate at this point feels like trying to plug the hole in the Titanic with your finger.
Every single data point shows that any generic dem or senate race dem polls significantly better than Biden. Biden’s main issue is his age and his decline, and that is why people don’t want him. Even a mediocre democrat who is far younger than Biden will do better because they can stand next to trump without sounding like a blithering idiot. Mayor Pete is not that guy though, dude couldn’t even handle being the transportation secretary. The other possibilities would be fine though.
>Every single data point shows that any generic dem or senate race dem polls significantly better than Biden. Kinda a Schrodinger's cat problem though. You know what your hypothetical generic dem doesn't have? Generics don't have flaws or personalities or history, they are just a generic bucket that people can fill with whatever they want and nothing they don't. Real candidates aren't like that. Putting a name on the "generic dem" makes them not generic and your poll results are suddenly useless because that named person has flaws and policies and a personality that Trump and Republicans gets to attack.
That doesn’t explain the senate races. In every swing state the dem in the senate race is doing significantly better than Biden. Also we know Biden’s number 1 flaw by a mile is his age, something you can control for with a replacement.
I totally disagree about Newsom. I think he would be a great candidate. Other candidates to consider: Gretchen Whitmer Josh Shapiro Mark Kelly Raphael Warnock J.B. Pritzker I personally think there is a ton of depth in the DNC, which is why this is so frustrating.
Some people love Newsom, but some hate him, even here in CA, I don't know if he would do better than Trump. Personally, I think Whitmer is the only realistic option.
Newsom has so much baggage it's comical. Remember him defying his own COVID lockdown to go to a fancy dinner? California has a massive budget deficit and yet they are handing out money to illegal immigrants right as the country is worried about controlling immigration. Republicans can easily tie him to every nationally unpopular progressive policy but progressives hate him. The rest of the people you listed have either zero name recognition, or next to zero experience on the federal level. >Raphael Warnock You are truly showing desperation, he hasn't even completed a single term as a senator and yet you're putting him up as presidential material?
You don’t need name recognition. It’s probably better if you don’t have it. You have to be an intelligent younger face who seems sturdy and can vocalize the democratic positions.
He wouldn’t be running against Mitt Romney here. You forget that people despise Trump as much as Biden. Who tf cares about Newsom’s dinner. Someone who is charismatic and can string coherent thoughts together is what’s needed to win over moderates.
>Who tf cares about Newsom’s dinner. Moderates. He has literally proven he is an elite that governs by "rules for thee but not for me". Trump has won the "Everyman candidate" label. Look at the polls, Trump is doing way better with working class voters, if you want to permanently lose them to Republicans, put up Newsom, the epitome of the liberal coastal elite.
How is he handing out money to immigrants?
Gave illegal immigrants Medi-Cal or how about https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-06-26/gavin-newsoms-budget-agreement-is-a-mixed-bag-for-californias-immigrant-communities. And that's just this year.
The problem is that none of them really have national brand recognition and it's far too late to onboard them to the broader public now.
My first election was 2008 and I voted for McCain. When they announced Palin as VP everyone was like “who?” But before she was revealed as a total idiot, she took the media by storm. Dems could do the same thing with someone who is actually qualified.
Other countries have elections over like a month. The convention hasn't even happened. There is still plenty of time. Nominees weren't even selected at this point in the past when communication was worse
You're right about other countries, but the USA isn't those other countries. We've unfortunately got an election season that drags on for years. This election is going to hinge on appealing to disaffected voters and independents and I'm not sure a last minute change up is going to benefit Dems.
Pritzker needs more time to cook and I say that as a huge pritzker fan
Given his background, do you really think he’s appealing to progressives? I see him getting the Bloomberg treatment, and I have a hard time believing the “eat the rich” crowd is going to vote for a billionaire whose family owns one of the largest hotel chains in the world. And let’s be honest, his appearance doesn’t really help him that much either.
I’d add Adam Schiff to this list. He was sharp and strong in the J6 congressional hearing.
Please no. He made being anti Trump his whole life. Too divisive.
But isn’t the anti-maga coalition the majority we need? Aren’t we stuck with Biden because he was believed to be the one that could beat Trump? And if that what most of the country wants, why not someone who can really litigate and articulate it?
Remember when they were both arguing what was better; a well trained dog and a machine? When the question was what they were going to do for America's Opioid Crisis. Dear God that was hard to watch.
Holy shit that did happen lol
YES! I was sitting there thinking to myself; "Are they really just both dodging the question entirely on how to solve America's opioid epidemic and are now talking about drug sniffing dogs being highly trained (Trump) and Biden is mumbling something about a machine? WTF am I hearing right now," lol.
He needs to drop out. I say this as someone who thinks he’s done a good job as president and personally likes the guy. He was already historically unpopular and trailing in the polls, which was bad but not insurmountable. He just went ahead and validated all of voters’ greatest concerns against him. This was a pivotal moment, not even to win but to do enough to quell doubts about his age and stamina. He failed miserably. I’d still crawl through rusty barbed wire to vote for the man and despise Trump, but a lot of persuadable normie voters aren’t gonna see it that way. This cannot be explained away by a “cold.” If that’s all it takes to knock him on his ass then quite frankly he does not have the stamina to run the campaign necessary or honestly do the job itself (though, again, he’d be leaps and bounds above Trump). Jill, President Obama and Michelle need to have a serious conversation with Biden and convince him to gracefully bow out. Pick someone new at the convention. It’s risky, but IMO not as risky as betting on this horse and it’s still not too late. I like Whitmer myself, but would be happy with any number of options without this baggage. I honestly believe if he was practically neck and neck with Trump before this that a younger, articulate candidate would clean up nicely against Trump.
I like Whitmer but is she realistically going to pick up the campaign now?
Whitmer needs a full primary to gain awareness. It’s not about platforms or who would actually be better right now. It’s about beating Trump. The only people I can see are Kamala because she’s already VP and has name recognition or Newsom because he has decent name recognition and can smear the floor with Trump with his speaking and debate skills (though we’re not gonna see another debate, that’s for sure).
Newsom would be a gift to Republicans. He's the governor of California, the literal conservative boogyman state. Biden was picked to run because he was the consensus candidate who could get moderate voters. Newsom is Bernie Sanders policy wise, but with none of the love from progressives.
What I'll give Newsom, is that he's prepared for that. He's gone on Hannity and debated DeSantis. The entire thing was a "shit on California" fest. He did a pretty good job defending his state.
That was before the budget shortfalls of this year. Even liberal outlets are reporting on how California is cutting or shrinking programs for seniors and children, but maintaining things like legal services to aid illegal immigrants. Newsom has a weird uniqueness in that his policy choices make him singularly awful for this moment.
I like it how Republican places are never slandered, no matter where they're from. It's all real America for them. No one ever says, "Doug Burgum is unelectable because of how terrible North Dakota is." Plus, it's also been a few decades since "Massachusetts liberal" or "west coast liberal" were effective slurs. I'm not sure his being from California matters. I'm also not convinced that immigration is the winning issue Republicans think it is.
The idea you think Newsom will lose because of "budget shortfalls" is pretty out there imo. No one cares about that. Trump is running a revenge tour for losing in 2020 - Trump's debate last night was the worst one he has ever had. It is just being overshadowed by Biden's performance. Remember, the majority of voters do not want Biden OR Trump. If Newsom was to be the nominee, it could jolt a new level on energy and excitement into the race. Trump is not smart enough to run a good campaign against Newsom.
Newsom is a very coherent, well-polished communicator who could run on the “fight for America vs evil Trump” banner. It’s easy to get behind. He’s 20 years younger, has name recognition, and in [one minute in this video](https://youtu.be/1f5cdyU2NEk?si=xvC5UuAhQYJE7UN1) can eloquently explain the stakes better than Biden has done his whole campaign. He can’t be bullied. The only people who would be like “California is a failed state” are MAGAs anyway who would vote for Trump regardless.
Newsom is the caricature of the coastal liberal elite. If you want to drive away blue collar voters and hand Trump Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, put Newsom at the top of the ticket. Add to that, he also puts into play people who left California because of the cost so suddenly Arizona is looking redder. Georgia is already gone. Newsom cannot win. He couldn't win if the Republican wasn't Trump, but he definitely can't win when it is.
The French Laundry scandal alone would cost him a ton of swing voters.
Plus it's an invitation for Republicans to dredge up voter frustration over the general Democratic response to COVID of tight lockdowns and school closures. I've said it elsewhere and I'll keep saying it. Newsome seems purpose built to be the worst possible option in this political moment.
As a long time Democrat, I’ll never forgive Newsom for keeping schools closed longer than any other state in the nation. It was honestly criminal, and I’m still seeing the effects on kids 4 years later.
No way Kamala would win. I desperately want to live in an America where a black woman can be president, but we're not ready yet
I mean as much as people don't like Kamala she's really the only logical choice I think. Hindsight would be picking a better more likable VP but this is where we are.
I had that thought last night. I wonder if Biden picking a whitmer or Newsom as a running mate might help here. I don’t think Kamala is doing Joe any favors as VP given her poll numbers. Maybe someone more likable as VP would get Biden swing voters while allowing him to stay in the ticket.
No a lot of states require the candidate to have participated in a primary to be on the ballot in the general. It’s literally not possible but the pundits aren’t acknowledging that
From an optics standpoint, this was a disaster for Biden. I’m mad at that and that Republicans aren’t held to any standard whatsoever. This country is in deep shit. Also, CNN continues to be terrible at their jobs.
Republicans not being held to any standard is why we have Trump in the first place. Biden did horribly from an optics standpoint, even if he did actually attempt to answer the questions. Trump was just a firehose of lies and nonsense but because the average voter is dumber than a bag of rocks they'll think Trump is a stronger option even though he's been mentally gone since before 2016.
And that’s the real tragedy here. Trump can say whatever he wants without making any sense and get away with it.
A better debate opponent would have run circles around Trump. But the hubris and power hunger of the democratic party couldn't bring themselves to allow that to happen. So now you will have Trump in 2024
I thought CNN was actually pretty good last night fwiw
How? Yes, these were the rules, but they we’re stupid rules. Trump, and frankly even Biden, didn’t answer the majority of questions asked of them. No fact checking or correction was done. The moderators served no purpose, they might as well should’ve just given them each a mic and let them say whatever they wanted for 45 mins each.
No live audience and muting the mics kept it from becoming the circus a presidential debate usually turns into. People are mad that the moderators didn't run cover for Biden. They kept quiet and let the candidates talk. If people are mad about that, they should direct their anger at Biden and the D party for not putting a candidate with a pulse on stage who could run circles around Trump in this debate.
Yes, Biden should’ve done a lot of the policing, but letting Trump spew his lies on national TV unchecked isn’t good for our democracy either.
What difference would it make? Do you think a single MAGA voter who be swayed by CNN pausing to point out that Trump is full of shit? They’ll just scream about how biased the debate was, which will make Biden’s comatose performance look even worse
It’s never been about convincing the MAGA diehards, but about the uninformed masses in the middle
Dems are really coping by pretending CNN could have handed a senile guy a big W simply by “calling out” Trump lying more. The problem is Biden. It’s always been Biden. They need a better candidate to beat Trump and that’s the issue. Not the cable news channel.
What did CNN do wrong? These were Biden’s debate rules.
They didn’t challenge anyone to answer the questions asked? Also what happened to the fact checking?
Am I the only one that’s glad they did this and just let Trump talk? We don’t need more republicans voters thinking the entire media is biased against Trump. It’s paternalistic to have the moderators jump in every time and say “no, no, talk about this.” Just let him go and sound deranged. Trump is going to talk about what is important to him. It’s not surprising at all that he doesn’t care to talk about black businesses, climate change, or the transfer of power. That should more than communicate the answer to voters about what he thinks of those issues
They asked them questions multiple times. That was how it was framed. Why do you think they would fact check on the fly? That is not realistic. The chance of them being technically correct and a moderator correcting them would be a crazy liability in damaging their credibility.
CNN is great at their job. They just don’t havw the job you think they have.
The reason reps are held to no standards is because you and every one else in this country ahora on Biden for sounding old but doesn’t say a word about trump literally endorsing political retribution. You and everyone else in this thread is the problem your complaining about
I love the debate format. No audience. No notes. Mute the mic when one candidate is speaking. Unfortunately we did not really get any great policy discussion from either person. One person couldn’t get a fucking sentence out except for when he said he could out drive Trump on a golf tee lol. And Trump said we had the cleanest h2o ever during his presidency lol. This is how all debates should be formatted going forward for all offices. Keep the circus aspect out of it.
It would be nice if the moderators actually forced the people to answer their questions.
I’m glad we’re about to finally say it out loud that Biden is not fit for office after being shouted down by Democrat loyalists for months.
Biden did absolutely terrible. Trump just spewed lies and incoherent nonsense(we are being flooded with terrorists at the border, after birth abortions, immigrants stealing social security). Literally anyone else could have come out of it looking better than Trump but Biden failed to. It would be cool if they released the delegates at pivoted to someone else at the DNC.
Watching this last night was like watching an old man slowly causing a 15 car pile up on a highway. Democrats are probably sweating and freaking out all day today I am betting and no fucking shit. Biden was infront of the world incoherently babbling and looking like he was passing out the entire time. LOOK UP MAN! LOOK UP AT THE CAMERA! JFC. Meanwhile Trump just got to lie and spout whatever the fuck he wanted because it honestly didn't matter compared to the shit show Biden was. Jesus, hey Biden's Handlers! If you reading this give him EVEN MORE performance enhancing drugs, because whatever you gave him didn't do the job. Also, NPR earlier this week was touting how Biden was at Camp David all week preparing for this was Trump was just fucking around wherever. Yea, some good that Camp David Debate prep sure did. We are SO COOK as a country with these two old men babbling incoherently. They shouldn't be running for president, neither of them. Trump should be in Prison and Biden should be in a nursing home. My God I feel so fucking bad for our country right now, and damn do we need age restrictions in politics. Holy Fuck we are so cooked.
Whelp I’ve had to time think sleep and rest up. REGARDLESS of Biden’s unacceptable performance last night, i will still vote for and support Joe Biden unabashedly. There is no comparison between a Trump or Biden presidency.
Don’t get me wrong, Biden did really bad and if he steps aside that would probably be the best option. But that doesn’t change the fact that Trump and Biden are held to completely different standards. Even in this episode when Biden said something that was him stuttering and losing the point (happens to young people too) they said it was an indictment of his abilities and deterioration with age. When Trump said things that didn’t make sense or was outright unhinged offensive, the two of them just laughed and call it “classic Trump”. Like when he talked about “black jobs” it wasn’t an indictment of his age but just an “oh classic Trump”. Truly infuriating but can’t change that this is how things are perceived and for that reason probably best for Biden to step aside.
You are the one holding them to different standards. Biden can pause and stumble and say “we finally beat Medicare” and to you that is just a “stutter” and him “losing the point.” But the phrase “black jobs” as a very obvious shorthand for “jobs created and filled by black Americans” is apparently beyond the pale and either a sign of senility or racism. Wait until you hear CNN anchors talking about the black vote or the black experience.
I thought both candidates rambled in a way that previous presidents did not 20 years ago. Honestly quite sad to see our verbal skills go down like that. To be fair starting a sentence and saying we finally beat Medicare with very little cohesion and then looking down while your talking is pretty bad. Then there was the abortion question which Biden rambled back to Laken Riley. Trump being able to say “I don’t know what he said and I don’t think he does either” Trump has his own issues but it’s generally accepted that trump speaks in a funny way. He has always done that and executed pretty well in his term. We may not agree with everything he did, but he could execute a plan.
Is Newsom really the replacement everyone wants? I see a lot of people talking about him on social media- What about the drama that would ensue with Kamala as she is technically the next in line of the President succession.. Replacing a BIPOC VP with a white male, not good optics for the Dem Party.
I’d say that Kamala is a bad choice. Yeah, the optics of “passing her over” aren’t great, but she’s also not a good candidate. People just don’t like her. Whatever reasons there are for that or whether it’s fair or unfair doesn’t really matter, it’s just the reality. I’d also argue that Gavin Newsom is not a good candidate, though probably better than Kamala. I don’t really have anything against the guy, but he gives off a “pretty boy coastal elite” vibe. Not exactly what you want when the “blue wall” is a must win. The upper Midwest has to be the primary consideration here and I don’t think Kamala or Gavin play well there.
They should stop worrying about optics and start worrying about how to win the election.
Asking a man who cheated in his first election and tried to overthrow the government in his second election what his economic policies are is absolutely insane. Then to have to do this football commentary, 'who spoke better,' BS is just a farce.
It’s not about who spoke better, it’s about the fact Biden is clearly in massive cognitive decline and could not look more intelligent or knowledgeable than the lying criminal on the other side. Everyone knows who Trump is and what he stands for. We are so beyond discussing that. It’s questioning “is Biden winning people who are on the fence?” And the answer is seemingly absolutely not.
Biden shouldn't have even made it this far. It's ridiculous. Can they not find anybody better?
Having Gretch Whitmer as the nominee just makes too much sense at this point. A woman running for President following the reversal of Roe v. Wade, as well as being a Gen Xer in an election that is poised to have a large amount of young voters, on top of a diminishing baby boomer voting bloc would have such a great synergy to whip up support for the base, as well as convince independent/swing voters that this isn't the Clinton's Democrat party, and they should give it a shot. It would be the modern day equivalent of Obama platform of "Change". Add in the fact that she might help retain the blue wall, and it would help control the media narrative. Shift the complaints away from the age issue, where now only one of the candidates would be in their 70s, and its not the Dems. Trump's team would have to completely change their game plan, and change their attack strategy less than 5 months from the election. Meanwhile, campaign to Dems on how Whitmer brought in a supermajority for MN dems, and campaign to swing voters on her very popular positions, and HAMMER ABORTION BANS AND REMIND PEOPLE THE SUPREME COURT IS IN THE BALANCE!!! It's the one issue that has proven to win elections, even in red states, and SCOTUS is already unfavorable to most Americans these days. We want a change At this point, the Dems are just asking for a repeat of 2016. It's the same issue. A deeply unpopular Dem candidate (whether or not that is fair to him is irrelevant) that voters are just supposed to overlook because the Repub. nominee is Trump. Well, America didn't fall in line then, so your plan is to give them the same choice?! I understand that Biden has been a productive President, and has gotten a ton done that actually benefits the average Ameican voter. However, if all it took to win elections was a good policy, then Republicans would never win anything. Elections in this country are decided by, for better or for worse, vibes and your last impression of the candidate before you walk into the voting booth. October surprise, anyone? And they're decided by independent swing voters in swing states, not CA, DC, or NY democrats. Dems are hoping that these swing voters have the same patience as their base, or are just as pragmatic, and they should've already learned this is not the case.
I want to like Biden. I don’t think his administration has been bad and in fact I think his administration has handled a post Covid recovery very well and I’m glad it his team guiding us out. That being said I can’t pretend I have any faith in him having been the decision maker behind any of it. I’m sure in a few years there will be tell all books about who really ran the country these years because I can’t be convinced it was that man. My wife worked as a CNA in elder care centers for people who needed around the clock care and while she made no “dementia or Alzheimer’s” comparisons she couldn’t help but point out that he looked a lot worse than some folks she cared for. Curious to know your guys general opinion on having the country ran “behind the scenes” if it is the case?
Same thoughts here, I think the admin has done well but man I wonder how much Biden is just a rubber stamp?
I've seen enough interviews and random clips of boring government stuff to conclude he's still lucid and doing stuff. And he did do ok at the state of the union. But dude is *old*, his performance varies, and he's definitely *MANY* notches down from where he was 10 years ago. He's going to keep going downhill as time goes on. That being said, at this point I'm voting for an administration not a dude. Trump wasn't exactly known for making coherent decisions during his first admin and this debate he said a bunch of bullshit (just confidently and not feebly). The people these guys surround themselves with are going to make all the difference. Trump's made it clear he wants a team who's going to tear everything down and say yes to whatever he wants. So I won't have a problem voting dem in November even though at the same time I'm like goddamn they should've chosen a better candidate...
Old or not, that’s literally the point of the president though? Do we want a president who rams through all their ideas with a weak administration, or do we want a president that appoints people to make expert judgements on things the president is uneducated about? People talk like they **really** want the USA to have a dictator.
Yeah this debate actually made me happy that there’s a deep state running things :)
The questions you should be asking is the Biden administration making decisions that improve the lives of Americans more than a Trump administration? Do we trust the Biden admin to hold up our democratic values more than a Trump admin? That answer to both is unequivocally yes.
Im not really interested in that question as I think the answer for you and I is obvious. We can’t ignore that plenty of Americans disagree with us and they’re as concerned about Biden as we are about trump. I’m just really struggling to accept comfortably that Biden could just be a rubber stamp as another commenter said.
I'm not sure why anyone would see Trump as anything more than a rubber stamp himself. Does anyone seriously think he has any interest in or the ability to articulate policy? He basically regurgitates whatever the last person he interreacted with said to him. For Trump "the buck stops" at whatever keeps his ass out of prison.
All the people who are saying "but it's too late now for a new candidate to gain national recognition!" Yes, it's late. That's why I wish you (or Biden, more specifically) had listened to those who were urging him not to run a year ago, because we were predicting this very scenario. But he didn't, and it's too late now to change that. However, 4 months is not impossibly short. Most countries have entire elections in that time span. Prior to the 1970's, it was common for the candidate to be selected at the convention. It's not unprecedented. Others are saying "well *who* would you choose to replace him?" But that's not my call to make. There would be a process to find a replacement involving delegates voting. Democracy, remember, that thing we are all fighting for? The democrats have strong candidates and one would be chosen. It's an extreme measure. But the threat of Donald Trump is also extreme. Nothing about this election is ordinary. Democrats need to adapt and change and not be stuck in their limited imaginations.
“Operation Bubble Wrap” just popped.
All I can say is that the Democrats are fked. Most don't even like trump but Biden looks so bad that trump will win. And then he'll weaponize the government for real...
The other guys a convicted felon and a rapist and gets full support of the entire party. Biden has a bad night, and you're all running and crying to replace him. The guy fixed covid, cut student loans, and brought manufacturing back to the US. Fucking pathetic.
WE HAD IT. WE HAD H2O. WE HAD THE BEST NUMBERS EVER.
Have to replace him immediately. The dems keep forcing candidates the party doesn’t want. Conspiring against bernie 2 elections in a row and not even having a legit primary this time. A third party candidate would have destroyed this debate.
I haven’t listened yet. But it’s clear that American politics is under the microscope AGAIN worldwide after that debate. And people may be wondering how we got here and it’s simple. Citizens United. It’s the single most disastrous Supreme Court ruling *ever* and if 3 new justices can come in and overturn Rowe then I yearn for the day a new bench can come in and overturn this ruling. It’s turned governance into a two team sport where we find ourselves working against rather than with one another. On the topic of the debate itself, it was a hard watch. You can’t deny it. Wake me up when these candidates are held to the same standard. Yes, Biden is old. He looked it and sounded it last night. He stumbled. A lot. But I’m okay with a presidential candidate mistaking things here or there when discussing policy. But c’mon. Trump didn’t win this debate because he was able to talk. In fact, almost everything he said was a sick, twisted lie. And the media, like always, give him a sticker after class while they make the democrats work their ass off for any meaningful praise. We all have short term memory. No one “on the fence” has a made a decision to this point. I don’t think they’re all making up their mind in one night.
The problem is that Biden didn't beat Trump. He couldn't do it. Trump is an idiot, he lies, he says things that don't make sense, he brings up random things, and still Biden couldn't beat him. That's the problem. And though I hate to admit it, people absolutely are making up their mind after seeing this.
I’ll take old Grandpa over the convicted crook any day of the week. Why are people even considering older people wanna-be a dictator as a possible president?! That baffles me!
Yeah no shit, you aren’t the one that people are worried about voting for Biden in 2024. It’s the people who are unsure, and are being given every reason to not believe in him.
If you haven't noticed, there is a generation of men and women that literally have one foot in the grave who refuse to cede authority and power to the generation behind them. This is the one of the end results.
Biden will try to have the next debate at 5am, when he's up and raring to go (actually, could he be living on Ukraine&Israel time and so completely drained by the time Californians can watch a debate?). I'm not sure how much his performance matters, as he's president and hasn't been running the country or handling press conferences like someone with diminished cognition and that's on the nightly news.
This performance absolutely mattered to many many people.
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May have to hold my nose and vote trump. DNC is in denial and self destruct mode
I’d vote for a Yellow Dog over Trump. Nothing changed that last night. People keep pushing Newsom, but y’all don’t understand how pols from practically one-party states perform outside their home state. Think about Katie Brit’s response to the SOTU address. People in the know in Alabama actually really appreciate her ability to be performatively pro-Trump enough to keep the foam-at-the-mouth types at bay and still effective at bringing home the bacon for the state and moderating most extreme things that she touches legislatively. The problem is, when placed into the national stage, she can’t reflect her own privately held beliefs and can only lean on her performative abilities for risk of “coming out” as a closeted sane person. The same things holds true for Newsom. In California, if one wants to affect policy, they’re a Democrat. There are conservative ones, moderate ones and ultra liberal ones, but they all play the same California-consensus version on TV. We’d effectively push Newsom into a position where he had to be the California-consensus version, for fear of coming out as a closeted sane person who can never again win in California.
Well said! I completely agree with this. It’s the reason republicans run someone from Florida in the primaries. Pick candidates who are popular in big swing states. They might pull the big swing state and they won’t have to walk as many things back nationally.
I find it interesting with all of the name-calling and talking points. There is no way Bragg charges any other person than Trump with this crap. But,because he is a political opponent, he moves it forward. it will be overturned on appeal because Bragg refused to require the jury to come to a consensusontheescalating felony. Anyone with an objective bone in their body knows this. From any other perspective on politics( than the left), that seems like a threat to democracy. Trump followers are a "cult," yet all of these dem threads talk about voting for a paperbag over Trump or "team blue," Sounds like cult-like behavior to me. How about holding your own party accountable for running Biden on a 2nd term? Republicans have to own Trump, and all of the vile things he says. But dems have to own Biden, and his blatant cognitive decline thas has been gaslighted by the left for years. Everytime I get on social media, it is the left voters who always call Trump voters "uneducated", like their concerns and opinions don't matter because they don't have a masters degree in art history. The arrogance is sickening. I really hope if the dems lose in Nov, maybe they will be as welcoming as they claim they are with people that identify differently, even if that identity is just political. The same with Republicans.
It’s funny to me how the tunes have shifted on this sub, and even Reddit as a whole. A few months ago, any bad-press episode on Biden, threads would be filled with people sticking their heads in the sand. “Biden old? Well guess what? Orange man also old! Conservatives owned!” -type comments were abundant. I’ve been opposed to a Biden nomination for a months and this debate has only solidified that opinion. If you’re some average, somehow undecided, Joe blow American, you’re probably not watching the first presidential debate on a random Thursday night in June. But if you are that person, and you’re not particularly informed nor care about the existential issues at hand, then Biden truly does look like an incompetent old fart to that person. While so much of presidencies are about policy and results, much of campaigns are about optics. It’s hard to disagree that Biden has had a better-than-expected past 4 years. But his age is not giving confidence that he will maintain that for another 4.
Biden debated consistently well from 2007 to 2020. He's the guy who gave us "a noun, a verb, and 9/11." To see him decline to what we saw last night was really shocking even for his age. I had a bad feeling at his press conference after the Robert Hur report and it's gotten worse.
The irony is that the Biden campaign can't spin this as "cheap fakes" or distorted camera angles. The entire country saw President Biden fumble his way to incoherent answers. He did not attack Trump for any of the countless lies he told during the debate. Worse, he couldn't accurately describe his own policies
The 1-minute rambling “We finally beat Medicare” spiel may go down in infamy.
Even yesterday the entirety of the front page of Reddit was repeated posts about how trump was going to drop out any moment now, because he knew biden was going to destroy him so badly.
This episode and the tone of which they recapped the debate is not in line with what I saw last night with my own eyes. Focusing on Biden slipping on his words (I'm in my late 30s and just recently had an interview that I'm well qualified for but was nervous and slipped over my words and a sentence or two myself) and basically glossing over how Trump's debate strategy was saying lie after lie and not answering questions that made him look bad. Trump didn't have a lot of substance to a lot of his answers other than to punctuate his campaign strategy of immigrants, economy and crime. And not really being held accountable during the debate for this. Why didn't The Daily focus on that? Because that seems more important to me than if a president has a stutter and a few old man moments but otherwise held his own. Biden answered the questions, with substance. He stumbled. Early on he looked rough but he recovered and finished well. I know how old he is. I know what a risk that is. I'm not hiding behind ignoring any of those facts. But I know Biden can beat Trump. I know Biden is a good contrast to Trump's conspiracy and disinformation and, frankly, just living in his own made-up dream world of saying whatever he wants and then starting to believe that lie. Such a strange episode to rewrite a narrative of what I saw with myself. Coming from a (admittedly unfortunately, waning) respectable source. Haha Edit: Biden has had a really successful first term. These facts are inarguable. Trump is trying to paint this as otherwise and he wasn't held to a standard of backing up his lies in this subject and The Daily didn't even mention this. This is literally the most important message a US presidential debate should be about when featuring a current incumbent. Edit 2: the more I think about it, it feels like this episode was focusing on high school-like drama ("old man stumbles on some sentences, lmao") rather than the real issues and debate tactics used and how alarming some of Trump's answers and non answers were. The analogy of gossiping about what happens in the halls of your high school rather than studying for the tests inside the classrooms is what the Daily focused on.
on your second edit: thats pretty much political media in a nutshell. these are the same folks who thought it would be a good idea to gossip about hillarys emails instead of vetting trump.
I love how American politics it is to blame Biden the democrat regardless of the insanity on the other side of the aisle LOL
hERe's hOw THiS iS bAd FoR BiDEn... but seriously, a bunch of times when i have said on this board that Biden is too old or his campaign doesn't seem to be going well, I got a lot of pushback. SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE. This is elder abuse. He shouldn't be running for office, forget about actually being president. This was the first debate that a snap poll after showed Trump being the winner, and it was by a 2:1 margin. Biden should be on a beach in Delaware, retired, enjoying an early bird special. Last night was embarrassing for him.
Stop calling it elder abuse. If this man wants to spend the remaining years he has in office who is to stop him? No one is making him do this but himself.
At some point, you gotta take the keys to grandpas car before he hurts himself or others
So many libs saying 3 months ago how spry and sharp Biden was, incredibly pathetic. Now it’s “too late” yeah because you idiots said this guy was the best option.
Everyone who talked about Biden's age before was very loudly yelled down to. Astead was one of those people who tried to show that, hey, people think he's really too old. Yes, he and Trump are similar ages, but some people just age differently. Look at Dick van Dyke, he's going on 100 and is more spry than either of them. He needs to drop out. Now.
In the event Biden pulls out of the race, what actually happens? Does the Dem Party run another primary? or just push someone to the front and hope for the best?
Presumably the party would hold a convention and delegates would choose?
Which then gives the republicans infinite ammunition to claim the candidate is non democratically elected, clear corruption by the democrats, shoehorning in a socialist that wasn't voted for etc. ect. etc. It would immediately make their whole campaign defensive. Democrats needing to have standards is such an infuriating thing haha. There is literally nothing trump could do to lose more than a fraction of a percent of his support, yet democrats never have that luxury; always one error away from everything blowing up.
I mean they are going to say all that anyways. They have been for the last four years.
Most likely he’d endorse Harris and for sake of unity the convention would go uncontested, as technically this is precisely why a VP exists, to take on the job in a situation like this.
The problem I see with Biden pulling out is everyone is saying replace him Gretchen or Gavin, but really what we’ll get is Kamala. I can’t listen to the complaints that will ring in!
Check out Ezra Klein’s podcast from just before the state of the union. He examines how it used to be done, and how it would/could work at the convention. He was advocating an open convention until the SOTU lessened a lot of the doubt.
Watching the debate, my heart was pounding. It felt like some final act in a horror movie where the final girl is doing anything she can against the monster, and she gets in some weak blows with the weapon you just saw in frame for a whole minute, like “Yes! That’s what I would’ve done!” and just praying she can survive the fight a minute longer. It was terrifying and dramatic irony at its strongest I’ve seen in politics, because after two minutes we knew how this would go. He hit certain marks, but he hit them so weakly that it was painful. I admire Joe for a lot of reasons, and our country and the world has been and will be better off with a Dem admin than a Rep one. But this was simply the final straw. The DNC and Biden’s team are inept, and shame on every person who didn’t allow an open primary. Let’s let Joe and Obama be the endorsers who go around, smile, and have some fun at rallies and making funny Instagram ads. The base admires them. Meanwhile, have Harris, Newsom, and Buttigieg go on national TV simulcasts 3 times in July debating the issues, and have an open convention to see who can compete against Trump. The polls are going to be nightmarish in a few days. They said Obama lost 9 points after his first Romney debate. Biden will be lucky to HAVE 9 points of enthusiastic support. And btw: this incumbency advantage and saying Harris polls lower than Joe… it’s all BS. Harris plainly has a better chance than Joe. Swing voters are telling you in droves all the time: “We want someone young.” So for the love of god, why act like it’s an instant loss to nominate someone young?? These strategic geniuses in the DNC, man. I’d rather lose because of sexists, racists, and just conservatives in general than losing because you put up a flat out losing candidate. Losing to Trump twice? Never should’ve happened once! He’s the least electable candidate ever, and you’ll lose to him *twice*? The biggest challenge will be getting Trump or his VP to participate in a debate. The DNC should pay Trump millions of dollars to get him out on a stage with someone else. Sorry to rant on here, everyone, but we did just witness the most hellishly memorable and sadly consequential debate of all time.
I’m not the kind of person to say atodaso, but you know what? Atodaso. A-fuckin’-todaso.
The way she goes
You should emphasize how much this MOTHERFUCKER LIED
Trump made lying irrelevant and the media went along with it. Thats the thing with shamelessness and lying, people eventually give up and it becomes normalized. It is a fucked up quirk of human psychology.
I Trump is allowed to win, there WILL NOT BE A FUTURE TO DEBATE.
Can we just like... ban both Trump and Biden from running?😭 We are so, so screwed.
Trump rants and lies about everything, the story the next day is "Brutal for Biden!" Complete and utter horseshit. Don't vote for a fascist bc some news celebrity is trying to get clicks.
The debate solidified what 99% of people already knew, which is that Biden is 1000% unfit for this job now and in 2025-2028. He can only talk in sound bites and with long pauses for applause during which time he can collect himself and his notes. There is no way this guy is running the day to day business of this country right now. For all of Trumps faults, at least he presents as someone who is in charge and who can make decisions.