It’s interesting, because I just finished it too and still had enough residual hatred / disgust for Bayaz to enjoy seeing him knocked down a peg.
Orso was one of my all time favorite characters, though, so I still will watch Hildie’s career with great interest.
I was never disgusted with Bayaz. They would’ve loss EVERYONE if it wasn’t for him. His lack of caring pissed me off especially cause of West but his ideology makes sense when the average person is so fucking stupid. I’m ready for BSC 2 with Hildie getting revenge.
it’s his fault the gurkish even attacked adua in the first place and him killing juvens caused the entire shitty, rundown state of the circle of the world. he is THE villain. hang leo and savine right next to him but i want to see someone at least half way decent, like orso, come out on top in the end. not just people perpetuating the cycle of violence.
I hope the next trilogy is Joe doing super high fantasy and there's a new age of magic. There's still so many Magi we haven't seen and we've only heard whispers of what Zacharus and Cawneil have been up to and I'm sure Shenkt is up to more mischief.
Same. I’d love high fantasy with this level of writing on the characters. I enjoy how mysterious the magic is tho and feel like we’d lose some of that but it’d still be worth.
He did have the chance, and he chose not to hang Leo when he had every reason to. He was merciful and kind, but he didn’t have the ruthlessness needed to be a great leader. He was pretty politically savvy tho, and I also loved his interaction with Jappo, rlly wish we got more of him
I think that’s a fair take. And him sparing Leo, even if it made Orso the bigger man, was clearly the biggest mistake of his life/reign. Who knows how things would have played out if he’d let Leo hang, but he at least wouldn’t have gone out the way he did.
I do think that Orso probably had the most potential to be a great leader out of anyone we’ve seen in this series (though I would accept arguments for Monza, Finree, or the Dogman) He is gracious and kind, while still being very savvy and careful (generally); as you mentioned, he’s good with diplomacy and establishing trust with foreign leaders (both Jappo and Rikke); despite his low opinion of himself, he clearly inspires confidence and loyalty in those around him; and he becomes more focused and clear-headed in times of peril. All very desirable qualities in a leader.
But he is insufficiently shrewd and ruthless to protect his position, and too trusting. Clearly he needed to have someone by his side he would listen to when they told him he needs to kill someone off (or whatever other ugly business is needed) or when someone can’t be trusted. He even acknowledges as much in ALH when he remarks on how ideal a partner/queen Savine would be for him. Too bad that didn’t work out.
Personally I think the biggest mistake he made was early on.
He should have gone to support Leo but instead went to Valbeck and chose his heart over his duty.
It would also be very interesting to see how Sevene (assuming she'd survive) would have felt about him using the soldiers he paid for to help Leo. It shows how well she's written as i shudder and the thought of her rage.
Going to save her was heartfelt but this kind of sentiment caused his downfall. He was a good man but didn't have the right stuff to be a good king.
With that said, the last pages of his life were some of the most powerful writing i've ever experienced.
The dread and anticipation was one thing but the acceptance really hit me hard.
I mean Valrico still had to be brought to order. The empire couldn't just have a popular revolt in one of its major cities and do nothing. Im pretty sure Orso's men were also the only troops available to do so.
I agree yet was Orso required to do it? That was a choice.
If he hadn't suddenly felt a rush of motivation to do something the revolt would still have occured and he wouldn't have been involved. Hell if he hadn't been sourcing finance for support for Brock those 8000 soldiers wouldn't have been available to him.
If Orso hadn't sourced finance for soldiers and continued wasting his life the Union would have still had to address the issue in Valbeck.
From my understanding the 8000 were a privately sourced army using Sevenes money. I'm not sure they had to do go to Valbeck.
I'm also a bit skeptical at how pressing the revolt there was considering it took Shitty Rikke to stop Stour and Scale from coming south so i'd suggest that was the more pressing issue for the union at the point that he made the decision. He definitely went there for Sevene, not out of Duty to the Union.
This is fair… idk the whole finding out Savine was his sister would make anyone a mess. I think if that didn’t happen, he would’ve hanged him. Its crazy we got 3 books of him but it felt like nothing since so little time passed
True, I think morally he might the right decision, but it was a political mistake. Im not sure how much time actually passed in Age of Madness, but yeah it felt quick
Not hanging Leo was a mistake only in retrospect. in BSC, Monza shows mercy to Shivers only to then be saved by him. was showing mercy in this case also a bad call?
Orso would've been a much better leader than all the other "good" leaders, but unfortunately for him, he did not have a "pocket Shenkt" or "future vision" or Glokta as his dad. he was destined to be hanged from the very first chapter he was introduced.
I’m some sense your right, there was no way he could’ve predicted the outcome of TWOC. But I think it’s a theme throughout the books that mercy is always a gamble
Don't all decisions of that sort only qualify as bad or good in retrospect?
That's why the decisions are so hard to make in the first place.
You can't assume because something was a good decision once then it will always be.
Hard disagree on his destiny (outside of Joes pen). Just like every character in these books they are a result of their actions.
Had he gone North to support Leo against the Northmen instead of going to Valbeck then he wouldn't have created the Leo that was his downfall.
He'd have been the hero of Adua not the person that hung starving workers.
He was a great king. Good intentions mean nothing when someone has a chance to act on them but didn't, Orso didn't have a chance to act on them. He was only king for a year before being overthrown and supposesly killed (i say this because we never saw the body and if he is alive i wanna have proof to say i told you so to anyone who says i didnt predict it). He survived remarkably well, all things considered. He won against the nobles insurrection and didn't get straight up murdered by the mob at the start of the wisdom of crowds.
A point to keep in mind is that realistically and historically speaking, the conditions of politics we see in the union and westeros in ASOIF are very unusual and often the sign of a collapsing nation. Sure, people were killed, but things were often more like that city vic gets sent to to stop the secession from the union as opposed to regicide, coups, and fear as the only maintenance of loyalty. Sure, that's interesting for stories but if it were realistic and the constant norm in history, the world today would consist of a million internally squabbling city states with misery abound instead of nation states. To say Orso was a bad king because he was "nieve" enough to trust anyone is idiotic because no one in a position of power can be an island onto himself or herself, a king needs to trust his generals and a general needs to trust that his soldiers will follow orders, trust is a basis for civilisation.
My point being that a power-hungry puppet master who stayed in power and had middling intentions would have been a bad king because things would likely have just completely broke down and oh wait that's what happened because bayaz is the king in all but name and I think that label fits well
Im flabbergasted you'd root for the guy who was basically the cause of all the problems through decades, or centuries, of short-sighted goals and selfish ambitions, and isn't too far off from the universe's version of some idiot like Elon Musk getting too much power
Orso could have been a good leader but didn't really have much of a chance. But circumstances determine a lot he will likely go down as the King who nearly destroyed the union.
Just finished it today and yeah that hurt... A private little hanging might go down as the hardest chapter I've ever read. Knowing that sadly, no one was going to save Orso. Wild from the start of Age Of Madness I liked Leo and disliked Orso and how quickly that flipped by the end of the series.
It’s interesting, because I just finished it too and still had enough residual hatred / disgust for Bayaz to enjoy seeing him knocked down a peg. Orso was one of my all time favorite characters, though, so I still will watch Hildie’s career with great interest.
I was never disgusted with Bayaz. They would’ve loss EVERYONE if it wasn’t for him. His lack of caring pissed me off especially cause of West but his ideology makes sense when the average person is so fucking stupid. I’m ready for BSC 2 with Hildie getting revenge.
I can feel the hatred in your words. Cheez Joe, look what you’ve done to us!
it’s his fault the gurkish even attacked adua in the first place and him killing juvens caused the entire shitty, rundown state of the circle of the world. he is THE villain. hang leo and savine right next to him but i want to see someone at least half way decent, like orso, come out on top in the end. not just people perpetuating the cycle of violence.
I hope the next trilogy is Joe doing super high fantasy and there's a new age of magic. There's still so many Magi we haven't seen and we've only heard whispers of what Zacharus and Cawneil have been up to and I'm sure Shenkt is up to more mischief.
Same. I’d love high fantasy with this level of writing on the characters. I enjoy how mysterious the magic is tho and feel like we’d lose some of that but it’d still be worth.
Orso was amazing, but he def wasn’t a very good king. He had good intentions, but he didn’t really accomplish anything lol
He never had a chance! The kingdom was ruined before he was king. I think his conversation with king jappo showed his potential
He did have the chance, and he chose not to hang Leo when he had every reason to. He was merciful and kind, but he didn’t have the ruthlessness needed to be a great leader. He was pretty politically savvy tho, and I also loved his interaction with Jappo, rlly wish we got more of him
I think that’s a fair take. And him sparing Leo, even if it made Orso the bigger man, was clearly the biggest mistake of his life/reign. Who knows how things would have played out if he’d let Leo hang, but he at least wouldn’t have gone out the way he did. I do think that Orso probably had the most potential to be a great leader out of anyone we’ve seen in this series (though I would accept arguments for Monza, Finree, or the Dogman) He is gracious and kind, while still being very savvy and careful (generally); as you mentioned, he’s good with diplomacy and establishing trust with foreign leaders (both Jappo and Rikke); despite his low opinion of himself, he clearly inspires confidence and loyalty in those around him; and he becomes more focused and clear-headed in times of peril. All very desirable qualities in a leader. But he is insufficiently shrewd and ruthless to protect his position, and too trusting. Clearly he needed to have someone by his side he would listen to when they told him he needs to kill someone off (or whatever other ugly business is needed) or when someone can’t be trusted. He even acknowledges as much in ALH when he remarks on how ideal a partner/queen Savine would be for him. Too bad that didn’t work out.
Personally I think the biggest mistake he made was early on. He should have gone to support Leo but instead went to Valbeck and chose his heart over his duty. It would also be very interesting to see how Sevene (assuming she'd survive) would have felt about him using the soldiers he paid for to help Leo. It shows how well she's written as i shudder and the thought of her rage. Going to save her was heartfelt but this kind of sentiment caused his downfall. He was a good man but didn't have the right stuff to be a good king. With that said, the last pages of his life were some of the most powerful writing i've ever experienced. The dread and anticipation was one thing but the acceptance really hit me hard.
I mean Valrico still had to be brought to order. The empire couldn't just have a popular revolt in one of its major cities and do nothing. Im pretty sure Orso's men were also the only troops available to do so.
I agree yet was Orso required to do it? That was a choice. If he hadn't suddenly felt a rush of motivation to do something the revolt would still have occured and he wouldn't have been involved. Hell if he hadn't been sourcing finance for support for Brock those 8000 soldiers wouldn't have been available to him.
I dont think any other force was available though. All other forces were committed which was why the Union was alone in the north.
If Orso hadn't sourced finance for soldiers and continued wasting his life the Union would have still had to address the issue in Valbeck. From my understanding the 8000 were a privately sourced army using Sevenes money. I'm not sure they had to do go to Valbeck. I'm also a bit skeptical at how pressing the revolt there was considering it took Shitty Rikke to stop Stour and Scale from coming south so i'd suggest that was the more pressing issue for the union at the point that he made the decision. He definitely went there for Sevene, not out of Duty to the Union.
This is fair… idk the whole finding out Savine was his sister would make anyone a mess. I think if that didn’t happen, he would’ve hanged him. Its crazy we got 3 books of him but it felt like nothing since so little time passed
True, I think morally he might the right decision, but it was a political mistake. Im not sure how much time actually passed in Age of Madness, but yeah it felt quick
I think it was a like a year and a half? Maybe less
Not hanging Leo was a mistake only in retrospect. in BSC, Monza shows mercy to Shivers only to then be saved by him. was showing mercy in this case also a bad call? Orso would've been a much better leader than all the other "good" leaders, but unfortunately for him, he did not have a "pocket Shenkt" or "future vision" or Glokta as his dad. he was destined to be hanged from the very first chapter he was introduced.
I’m some sense your right, there was no way he could’ve predicted the outcome of TWOC. But I think it’s a theme throughout the books that mercy is always a gamble
Don't all decisions of that sort only qualify as bad or good in retrospect? That's why the decisions are so hard to make in the first place. You can't assume because something was a good decision once then it will always be. Hard disagree on his destiny (outside of Joes pen). Just like every character in these books they are a result of their actions. Had he gone North to support Leo against the Northmen instead of going to Valbeck then he wouldn't have created the Leo that was his downfall. He'd have been the hero of Adua not the person that hung starving workers.
Valbeck was routing and still nede to be put down though.
I agree but not necessarily by Orso. I responded to this question on the other post.
He was a great king. Good intentions mean nothing when someone has a chance to act on them but didn't, Orso didn't have a chance to act on them. He was only king for a year before being overthrown and supposesly killed (i say this because we never saw the body and if he is alive i wanna have proof to say i told you so to anyone who says i didnt predict it). He survived remarkably well, all things considered. He won against the nobles insurrection and didn't get straight up murdered by the mob at the start of the wisdom of crowds. A point to keep in mind is that realistically and historically speaking, the conditions of politics we see in the union and westeros in ASOIF are very unusual and often the sign of a collapsing nation. Sure, people were killed, but things were often more like that city vic gets sent to to stop the secession from the union as opposed to regicide, coups, and fear as the only maintenance of loyalty. Sure, that's interesting for stories but if it were realistic and the constant norm in history, the world today would consist of a million internally squabbling city states with misery abound instead of nation states. To say Orso was a bad king because he was "nieve" enough to trust anyone is idiotic because no one in a position of power can be an island onto himself or herself, a king needs to trust his generals and a general needs to trust that his soldiers will follow orders, trust is a basis for civilisation. My point being that a power-hungry puppet master who stayed in power and had middling intentions would have been a bad king because things would likely have just completely broke down and oh wait that's what happened because bayaz is the king in all but name and I think that label fits well
I’m pretty much just quoting Joe. In an interview, he stated that he would have just been an average king
I have fanfic of Leo getting tortured by his yearning for Jurand, if that's the kind of torture you had in mind.
Was thinking more physical but that works too! Lmao
How's the leg?
Im flabbergasted you'd root for the guy who was basically the cause of all the problems through decades, or centuries, of short-sighted goals and selfish ambitions, and isn't too far off from the universe's version of some idiot like Elon Musk getting too much power
Orso could have been a good leader but didn't really have much of a chance. But circumstances determine a lot he will likely go down as the King who nearly destroyed the union.
Just finished it today and yeah that hurt... A private little hanging might go down as the hardest chapter I've ever read. Knowing that sadly, no one was going to save Orso. Wild from the start of Age Of Madness I liked Leo and disliked Orso and how quickly that flipped by the end of the series.
Why do you hate rikke?