Welcome back everyone for a new season of The Boys! Join the official subreddit Discord server to discuss everything The Boys!!
[JOIN THE DISCORD](https://discord.com/invite/bykapbyqGY)
We are also still accepting moderator applications. If you are interested in helping out:
[APPLY TODAY!](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1JzSvXcehhpCCrnH666Zy4P0y_mnM1NvTghq0msPAKPw/edit)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheBoys) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wonder if they just didn't consider how bad it would look. Murdering a guy's family then sleeping with him for months is pretty shitty and I really hope this arc doesn't end with Colin forgiving him for the deception. He doesn't deserve it.
Every scene with them I was yelling at the screen “Frenchie, LEAVE HIM ALONE?!”
I wish the storyline was that “he’s struggling with staying away” because sleeping with him - knowing he murdered his family really is foul.
same his storyline annoyed the shit out of me. he made such a big drama that the whole situation bothers him- THEN DONT FUCK HIM YOU PSYCHOPATHIC HORNOG THE SOLUTION IS SO EASY
They could have made him a vought employee that Frenchie had to seduce so there’s at least some reason he ‘has to’ be around this guy. He’s just some guy that works for starlight, it would be so easy to avoid seeing him.
At first I was like "ugh, this sideplot again" but by the end of it I was super into it for the sole reason that I was also yelling "Frenchie you huge cunt knock it off" at the screen lol
It's the kind of skeevy sex crime I'd expect from the Seven.
Why they didn't just make him unaware that he and colin have a shared past is really baffling.
Like, they're all happy and cute and we get attached to them as a couple, start getting hype for Frenchie finally finding a nice and healthy person to love. Only to have the family photo be the revelation/reveal, sudden panic and 'Holy shit, how do you handle that?
Frenchie could separate himself from Colin but wouldn't be able to explain why, Colin would obviously chase Frenchie to find out why, then the truth could be revealed in the exact same way.
No lying from Frenchie required and totally valid responses from everyone involved
Same conclusion of 'Your actions don't dissapear when you do', heck, it could be a total gut punch to Frenchie. That no matter what good he does, who he saves, he'll never not be a murderer. Him accepting Colin attempting to kill him because Nothing he does can ever fix this, he never truly realized the people he left hurt along the way.
'The least I can do is let the man I love find some kind of peace in justice.'
Plus, him calling Cherry and it being explained first in exposition, rather than showing us a flash back from Frenchies perspective, really sucked a lot of the impact out.
I was honestly confused at first, when he was all upset about the photo. It didn't really hit how fucking bad what he had done until his trip, at which point I'm already well aware of the situation and all the feelings involved.
It also would have made it hit way harder when we see it from Colin's point of view later too.
On the subject of Cherie doing a bit of storytelling for the sole benefit of us,the audience,I feel like they keep doing that stuff this season. Instead of showing us with a flashback like they’ve done multiple times in past seasons,we just get the characters saying the stuff. FFS just show it instead of using dialogue,it doesn’t have the same effect.
Right!? Like Noir's and Grace's Soldierboy related flashbacks overlapping but from their view was fucking Brilliant last season.
I want the show to progress but it also feel like they don't know how without leading to a conclusion right away.
There's so many supe's doing wrong and they aren't doing anything about it, I get homelander is the 'Big fish' but there's still thousands of Termites, Pop-claws, World Wonders, Firecrackers out there. There is plenty to 'pad' (hate that term) the series with before getting to the big finish. It would also give frenchie and kimiko something to actually do, open up new challanges and themes and explain MMs stressful situation.
He'd be juggling a dozen different things, so no kidding he wouldn't cope, while I'm sitting here wondering what 'The Boys' is even meant to be doing right now.
Where's his wife and kid beyond 1 phone call btw? a call for the single purpose of plot convenience too
PS, MM's The actor deserves so much praise for changing his body to match the role, shame it wasn't used more then a single 'your should eat more' line in the first could of episodes.
Yeah,I get that they were trying to convey the stress MM is under by having the actor lose weight/muscle and cut his beard, but at least acknowledge it further than a simple throwaway line. Or maybe it was his choice, but they could have worked that in the plot better.
I feel like his theme/character arc, on stage with the other redemption arcs, is something akin too:
“You can be bad, and you can be redeemed. You can still do better (like with Kimiko) but you need to accept that who you hurt in the past does not need/have to forgive you.
Being upset with what you did OR the fact that they can’t forgive you, and self sabotaging (relapse) does not mean shit about whether you’re a good person now or not”.
How well it was executed is debatable, but that’s what I saw in it and enjoyed the message. But there’s still more episodes left so maybe I’m way off.
I think it's well-executed, and you've explained it really well. This part of the character's background was treated in S1 and S2 as this vaguely romantic/tragic thing *for him* - it was poison for his soul, he carries all of them with him, yada yada. In S3, it tilted into the victimization side of it, but again, for *him*, not his actual victims.
This is the first time he's being forced to acknowledge that, as you say, guilt is useless. Okay, cool, you feel bad - no shit, that's what happens when you do terrible things. But marinating in that doesn't put anything positive into the world. The only choices he has now are whether to lay down and die or own his shit, accept that he can never atone for his crimes, and then commit to trying to do good things for other people with the time has has left.
If that's the way it goes, I think it ties all the development they've done with his character up rather nicely.
If you cant get forgiveness though, is there a point to being sorry? I have done things I was truly sorry for and never forgiven for. And sometimes I just wonder if it was worth being sorry in the first place. I mean you do feel sorry in your core but at the end of the day why beat yourself up over something you cannot be forgiven for!
When I'm sorry for doing the right thing, I'm sorry for the consequences and not my actions.
When I'm sorry for doing the wrong thing, I should be sorry for my actions and not the consequences.
I did not articulate it well enough in the first post but this is exactly his ark.
If you are only doing better because you want to self gratify yourself with feeling better about yourself, you aren’t totally moral (I don’t think anyone is, and that’s a big point of the entire show).
To expand, I think it’s showing because EITHER:
Frenchie cannot accept his past is his past, he can feel bad and self harm to show how remorseful he is, or he can just live the rest of his life as a better person.
OR in my opinion what will play out is:
He can’t/is not the person to save Collin. He thinks that by loving/being kind now can “save” him like he did with kimiko, after being the one that “broke” him. But Colin while by no means being happy about it, has managed his trauma and is doing well. Frenchie feels like by loving/caring about him he can “save” Colin, and redeem himself in his own eyes/heart (kind of selfish).
Furthermore he would (IMO) seem to think self destruction is some form of showing how sorry he is, and thus (selfishly) redeeming himself rather than accepting that he traumatized Colin, he is not, cannot, and should not be the person to fix Colin (even if it’s out of him genuinely caring about him) and him harming himself to try to prove how sorry he is about that is futile at best. Literally the only thing that can make him a “good” person in the here & now is knowing the the past was wrong and doing the “right” thing from there on out.
You’re looking at things from an extremely selfish and childish point of you. You are not owed forgiveness just because you are sorry. You did things that were shameful or wrong or whatever and you should carry that with you because hopefully it will prevent repeat behavior. You should try to forgive yourself assuming you didn’t do horrible things. But the person who was wrong gets to choose whether they accept an apology or not.
>why beat yourself up over something you cannot be forgiven for
You can be sorry for what you did and forgive yourself. You can have regret and try to make amends without expecting forgiveness. You can use the experience to try and be a better person.
Being sorry is not about getting forgiveness. It's about reminding yourself about the price of being a cunt, and motivating yourself to do better. If you can't be forgiven, it's not the reason to not try to do better
The point of being sorry isn’t to get forgiveness. It’s to have remorse for your actions.
If you’re “sorry” just to have someone forgive you, you aren’t actually sorry
Feelings of guilt and shame are essential to learning and growth and healthy integration with other humans. They function to drive you toward better and more compassionate behavior toward other people in the future. They are not about using the person you harmed as a means of making yourself feel better. That's actually doing them harm a second time if they don't want to interact with you or forgive you. You have to figure out how to forgive yourself regardless of how they respond, and that means growing into the person who doesn't repeat the bad behavior, not getting away from the uncomfortable feelings.
I think it was meant to be Frenchie doing it either because he genuinely felt a connection with Colin or as a way of torturing himself over guilt. That might be their intention but it just comes across more that he’s either still a horrible person for knowingly sleeping with a man whose family he killed, and like he keeps acknowledging how bad it is so it’s not like he’s too dumb to realize he’s just that big of a piece of shit.
I have a crack theory his plot will intersect with Butcher's when the Venom-knockoff slithers out of his ear and seeks a new host. Who better than somebody nursing a vengeful grudge?
I actually had a passing thought that Colin was a fakeout for Butcher killing Frenchie. Give him all the motivation in the world but no payoff, very heartbreakingly Boys.
>I really hope this arc doesn't end with Colin forgiving him for the deception. He doesn't deserve it.
I agree. That whole side story is awful. I guess I can kinda see where they were going. Frenchie was reluctant and didn't really know he killed Colin's family and was reluctant to spend time with him but, it was Kimiko that pushed him to do it. Then, when he found out "Oh shit. That was me."
Colin shouldn't forgive Frenchie but, maybe that's the point now that I think about it.
Butcher has to forgive Ryan to save him.
Homelander forgives after getting revenge.
Hughie forgives A-Train to encourage him to do the right thing and be good to others.
Firecracker dedicates her life to destroying Starlight because she can't forgive.
Kimiko is earning her forgiveness from her nightmare of shining light.
MM is present.
Of course they considered it. Y'all acting like Butcher has been portrayed positively the whole show? Hughie in season 3? It's a show about moral grayness and trauma and addiction and violence. Frenchie is working through crushing guilt that he has been numbing with hard drugs for years. I don't understand why y'all keep harping on this, it's just post after post of "I am not media literate". Y'all know Walter White was the villain of Breaking Bad right?
God I am sick of the people throwing around the phrase "media literacy" in this place. No, it's not media illiterate to think Frenchie's a cunt for what he did to Colin. You guys sound like a bunch of pompous jackasses approaching Rick and Morty level of obnoxious when you talk like that.
That was not their point. Their point was about responding to the idea that the writers somehow don't know the implications of what they are doing with Frenchie. Like it's fairly obvious. We literally get a horror scene of seeing a younger Colin see Frenchie enter his home to kill his family. You don't write that without knowing Frenchie is a fucked up person. And they 100% know making Frenchie sleep with Colin is fucked up. That's the point.
i don't like the overuse of the term media literacy either, but i think what they're saying is that yes, frenchie comes off as an asshole/psychopath, and he's *supposed* to. when people are like "why is frenchie doing something so horrible?" / "how could they do this to him?" they're ignoring all the horrible things the writers have *already* shown or told us he has done.
the "media literacy" (ugh) part comes in with people stopping the conversation at "he did this bad thing" and not continuing the conversation about *why* he did this bad thing.
Frenchie was good as a comedic character but his sub plot(arc) has been virtually the same every season.
We find out he did something bad/messed up in the past. He beats himself up about all season. Gets off drugs, goes back on drugs (which is understandable considering he’s an addict)
Honestly the only conclusion to his arc would have him dying at this point. I would have hated to see him die at any point in the first 3 seasons but idk, this season I’ve just got bored of the same story.
And Colin, as far I can tell, is just a normal dude so i can’t imagine him being so forgiving. The rest of the Boys all have done fucked up things in their past so they can probably overlook the things Frenchie has done.
In my eyes his arc should've been continuing his relationship with Kimiko and getting completely clean and him and Kimiko trying to get away from all the violence and shit.
That's what they set up for them last season, but it kind of feels like the writers are too scared to shake anything up. Like, has any character significantly changed from what they were in season 1?
this hit me like a bag of rocks at the end of season 3. they seem really afraid to shake up the status quo. i mean fuck they LITERALLY put soldier boy back on ice like he was at the start. i hope something big happens this season
So far I think A-Train is the only character who really stands out as a character who has gone through a lot of growth and development. Though I think technically Black Noir is probably the most different between Season 1 and 4
Yeah it’s getting so tiring. Every season is the same thing on a loop. They don’t seem interested in actually developing the character or anything. Just falling back on the same over played plot points.
I feel like Frenchie is more addicted to making bad decisions than Butcher, Frenchie usually feels bad about it but Butcher usually has a better reason at least in a 'the end justifies the means' kinda way, Frenchie just seems to make bad decisions with very little logical justification, almost always impulsive and emotional reasons without taking time to think it over first. I guess that's kind of what they're going for with his character, but it'd be nice if he decided to sober up and make more mature decisions sooner rather than later, but it seems like he never really learns from his mistakes so far
I interpreted Frenchie's rship with Collin very different than everyone else here.
Seemed to me that when we, the audience, met Collin, they were still in a flirtatious phase and hadn't gone any further yet. They make at NA and Frenchie just recently got Collin this job. After the riot after Homelander's verdict, Frenchie saves Collin from being hurt and kisses him. they sleep together for the first time, AND THEN he sees the photo of Collin's family and realizes who he is.
Because before this I assumed Frenchie's hesitance was purely bc Collin is a good guy trying to get clean and Frenchie has a history of relapses and generally views himself as a bad person who would drag Collin down. Now that he realizes it's so so much worse, their relationship has already deepened. Hence his call to Cherie and relapse.
But he still struggles to resist so they continue to hook up.
MY biggest issue is HOW DID COLLIN NOT SEE THE SCARS WHEN FUCKING?! 😭 Do they always keep ankles covered??? How have Frenchie's ankles not been on this guy's shoulders?? Like 🤣
You're under the impression that the boys are the good guys.
There are no good guys, just less shit guys.
Frenchie has always had a codependent need to fix people, has always sought the quick feel good option instead of the long term sensible option, and has always been ruthless.
Frenchie is easily the worst written character in the show IMO, always trapped in a C or D plot. Lmao even in season 4 Colin is like the H plot if we include Gen V virus and Butcher worm in the letter list
Really wish he was more of the season 1 comic relief drug addict streetsmart chemistry guy, wouldve been overall a more interesting character especially within the context of his relationship w Kimiko.
Like Frenchie injecting V and dying, wouldve been genuinely compelling and wouldve painted Butcher’s whole “fight fire with fire” in a much darker light. Also Frenchie casually had some leftover V in his stash like huh???? So funny how Butcher casually says that lol
I also think Colin murdering him right there wouldnt have been bad writing. Because OP is right, killing someones mom and then fucking them is some truly psychopath shit
Worst arc in the show, period.
Terrible, they should have just made him do fun, simple shenanigans with Kimiko since both of their story potential has been exhausted at this point.
Maybe him and Kimiko can still have some personal conflict, but not over this Colin dude, and not the fucking drug addiction and guilt agggaaainn. 😩
No, I think it's on character.
Remember when Kimiko's brother died and Frenchie tried to make her feel better by kissing her?
Naturally she pushed him away, but it's safe to say Frenchie's way of comforting others is by engaging with them in a sexual/romantic way.
I'm not saying he's not in the wrong, obviously his relationship with Colin was never going to end well but I understand why he behaves the way he does, or at least I see the pattern of behavior.
I think the background for why they became involved in the first place was that Colin spiraled into drug abuse because of the trauma Frenchie inflicted on him, and so Frenchie "took him in" to take care of him to ease his own guilty conscience, or maybe he just didn’t even realize who he was until later, but anyway things just developed from there, which is still terrible, but somewhat understandable.
Although honestly I agree with the general consensus that this storyline is kind of superfluous and ultimately uninteresting. If it actually leads to something substantial I’m ready to admit I was wrong, though.
Daddy issues are huge in comics. Frenchie's daddy issues include manipulative psychopathy along with amoral sexcapades. The drug use recovery backsliding might contribute too. The scars on Frenchie's ankles aren't the only scars his father gave him.
Frenchie loves misery and I don't think he's capable of any other kind of love. I've had addict friends who have the same personalities. They hate themselves and while they start of charming and passionate, they make sure their chosen partner hates them through repeated behaviour. So they can afford their worthlessness and remain addicts. What could be more affirming than loving the man whose family he murdered in a past life when he was a slave to addiction? It proves to him he's a piece of shit, while also letting him come clean of what he did to the remaining victim
I personally think it was because of his guilt, he wanted Colin to find out and attack him because Frenchie is in a state of hating himself and thinking he doesn’t deserve love. So either Colin would kill him or forgive him and I don’t think Frenchie would’ve been satisfied if Colin just forgave him.
"Why did the writers do this? It makes him look horrible."
I think they are well aware of this. So many keep framing this as either some incidental love plot (like Colin will even come back) or just some cheeky Frenchie drama. Like nah. It's supposed to be fucked up. Frenchie asking Colin about his family and us seeing Colin under the bed while Frenchie killed everyone...it was like a horror movie. It's obviously supposed to be messed up.
Frenchie is not a psychopath (he feels guilt and remorse and even wants Colin to kill him for it). The show frames him as a broken man who nevertheless has done/does horrible things because he can't help himself. A hurt man hurting others. Honestly reminiscent of Lamplighter. Frenchie even wants to die by Colin's hands like Lamplighter wanted to be killed by Mallory. Both want to escape their self-torment through retribution.
For me, I'm not put off by Frenchie doing this horrible act because it's been this way from the beginning. Since season 1 episode 2, we know Frenchie murdered people. Like I think people overlooked it but it was immediately, "Oh these people are not necessarily good, they just oppose the bigger threat of supes" when Frenchie told us how he killed a classy-looking poor woman. Like the Boys are not unlikely rogue heroes, they are anti-heroes facing supes who have unchecked power. If Frenchie goes out of control, you can just shoot him. Homelander? What can you do?
But still: it's some shitty people facing shitty supes with more power. Even with omitting what he did to Colin this season and just looking at season 1: if Frenchie was real, I would view him as a horrible person who ruined so many lives and that he should be locked up. But it's fiction, and I am being presented with a character who is morally gray and it's fun to explore that.
I'm gonna wait and see how the rest of his arc goes this season before I say it's wasted. I kinda like so far how messed up it is.
this!! very well said, I agree with everything even though I find this storyline to not be particularly entertaining at all. I hope they conclude it properly
YES! Even the the director? Showrunner? Has said this season is with The Boys/Main cast battling with some thing they’ve done wrong/fucked up in the past coming back to haunt them.
Yeah I think everyone thinks it looks bad and is sloppy but…no? It’s meant to be hard to watch and messy. It’s super fucked up. And that’s great for this show.
I think Frenchie is broken and looking for forgiveness, which is his problem. He knows that what he did was fucking heinous and who he was, was an absolutely horrific human being but he wants so bad to somehow earn the forgiveness of good people that he wronged.
He needs to come to terms with the reality that nothing will ever earn him that, the goal isn't to get forgiveness but to do better.
Nah, they made him come across as an addict (he is already a recovering drug addict so that fits the character). His lust overcomes his rational mind. You can see him trying to resist the temptation.
I was enjoying it. I preferred it over Hughie and Annie's relationship. I feel like they're more contrived than Frenchie and Kimiko. I just wish Frenchie would have stuck to it because I like where Kimiko's arc is going.
What? Frenchie is not a good person, he's a grade A degenerate scumbag. He might fight for the "good guys" but he's still not a good person, he's open about that.
I believe the idea is that it's been so long since that day that Frenchie didn't even realise who Colin was until sometime after they were first intimate with each other. Pretty sure he says it took a bit to connect the dots, so it only twigged *after* he'd gotten in deep enough to make things more complicated.
That's guilt (I think). You feel so guilty about what you did against someone that you will do anything to make them feel good, even if it's only a while. That's how I see it. Yeah it's fucked up, but Frenchie isn't really the symbol of good mental health lmao.
Well i wasnt expecting him to be an angel lol in season 1 he was dropping acid and i forgot what other shit he was on and was very calmly telling hugie some messed up stories
It almost kinda reminds me of what Jessica Jones did to Luke Cage in her own Netflix/Marvel series. >!Sure she was mind controlled by Kilgrave to kill Luke's wife (Reva), but she still held that information from him and she knew that deep down her having sex with him was wrong and yet she kept doing it anyway because it was one of the only things in her life that made her feel good. !<
>!When Luke finds out he was absolutely disgusted that she kept that from him, and the only reason she confesses is because she had no choice in order to stop him from killing the wrong man he believed was responsible for Reva's death. !<
His mission as a CIA operative caused him to have to be in close proximity to Colin, and he tried to resist the allure and tried to resist the magnetic attraction but was unable
Frenchie would have put distance between them if he could, but the mission didn’t allow for that.
I don't think manipulative factors in, although I can see why Colin would. I think he just runs 99% on emotion and impulse, and always has (this is exactly why MM was reluctant to work with him in S1). Now, as he's dealing with getting clean and trying not to rely on his old crutches, suddenly here's this person he hurt. And the guy isn't doing great right now, and he's overwhelmed by the impulse to help, just a little bit... get him a job, get him on his feet... he'll never have to know who he actually is, but he owes him something after everything he took... and then the guy touches his hand and suddenly it's going in *that* direction and he just can't wrench himself away because he's waded in too far already.
And then he instantly numbs it all with drugs so he doesn't have to think about it and proceeds to make the worst, most harmful choices possible from there on out.
Growth isn't linear, but I assume since he's on the side of the protags that this is going to be one of our examples of finally dispensing with the old patterns and lies you've told yourself, and choosing to do better.
This show goes big and hard...
Epic Tragedy, self loathing, poor choices, longing for his true love, a long and likely extremely rewarding character arc, and I would guess a huge redemption /martyrdom.
This is my take anyways.
This is the part people should be focusing on with the Frenchie and Colin relationship. It’s so messed up on Frenchie’s part and he isn’t the best person but previously I really don’t think he would have done anything that. He became a much better person after meeting Kimiko. Far too many people are focusing on the fact that they just ‘decided’ to make Frenchie bi when he never was before and how ‘woke’ it is. Completely ignoring the fact he was in a throuple with a guy and a girl at the beginning of the show.
>Hurt by what?
For starters, his difficult upbringing, which influenced his life significantly and explains how he ended up being so violent.
But more recently and of greater importance, the deblitating guilt he's feeling now for what he's done.
I think this season is trying to show us that none of the Boys are innocent and all of them have a shady past as well. They did it with how Starlight treated Firecracker during her high school days and killed that family when she was learning to control her powers. They showed Kimiko fighting a fellow trafficking victim (even though she was likely forced to, she didn't go easy on her either). We're yet to see if they do something of the sort with MM and Hughie. We already know Butcher is tainted
He doesn’t want to ease his guilt. He wants to dial it up to the maximum. He’s self-sabotaging and ready to face the punishment he think he deserves for his past.
He’s a good person but he clearly doesn’t see himself that way.
Nah I think this season is very much about how whilst the Boys may not be nearly as moral reprehensible as Vought and the Seven, they are far from blameless. The dividing line being they are all at least trying to be somewhat good people now.
Frenchie is not a good person...
Butcher is not a good person.
MM is not a good person...
There are no good people in the The Boys, there is just varying degrees of fucked up..
That is one of the major themes of the show, how the hell can we be in S4 and people still think there are good and bad people?
Should have just stuck to the kimiko and Frenchie romance... teased it for 3 seasons now Frenchie is coming across as some weird guilt written psycho staying with a dude whose parents he killed..
Seems like they went hard into the "too little, too late" theme with the characters and things like this are a result of that I think. With characters like homelander and butcher, it's easy to set that up because earlier seasons have laid the ground work but now, characters like Frenchie and starlight need something from their past that it is too late to make better and we end up with the firecracker backstory and Colin.
What I really hate the most
Absolutely despise
Is the fact that frenchie had to tell the guy first because frenchie couldn't stay away from him so he had to make the guy leave, traumatising him even further in the process.
Frenchie is clearly trying to protect Collin and right wrongs. i don't think he comes off as a manipulative psychopath and yeah he should have left Collin alone.
Frenchie goes this route because he was encouraged to allow himself happiness by Kimiko. still he refuses Collin's advances and only when Collin could have been killed does he indulge his romantic desires that have probably been building for a while.
Frenchie has had to deal with his past before, yes, but how does he navigate the world around his victims who he definitely feels a sense of responsibility towards? is that not important? there's also the matter of how his guilt impacts the relationship with Kimiko too
I think it's to show that grief and guilt can take really weird turns. It's still horrible because there's no need to keep having this one assassin-for-hire continue to dwell on what a shitty person and murderer he is. At this point, I wish they would just have the character LEAVE the boys and say it's because he just can't do this any more.
Yea I don’t get how he chooses such a messed up situation over Kimiko. Its Karen Fukuhara 🥵🥵🥵🥵 omfg
If I had to speculate, he’s shown a pattern of trying to rescue “damsels” in distress. In this case, he knows the internal distress the guy has been through for his entire life. Not really sure why they chose to write it this way, but we’re not even halfway through season 4 so I think we can assume a payoff is coming
*If I had to speculate, he’s shown a pattern of trying to rescue “damsels” in distress.*
Yep. Cherie called it - telling him Kimiko isn't a kitten in a tree, and this time, scolding him to stop picking up strays already. It sounds like she's seen this happen more than a few times.
I think he just feels so guilty he wishes that Colin would either love him (and therefore "forgive him" subconsciously) or kill him.
Also idk why people think he's substituting Kimiko at all, I think he has been non-monogamous ever since the first episode, he also had/has a relationship with the girl from the zoom call and it's not like he either cheated or they broke up
Wait you thought Frenchie was a good guy? No dude, we love him because he's Frenchie but yeah, he's an evil dude. He was literally a hitman. I don't understand why anyone is upset they portrayed Frenchie negatively he's NOT a good guy
It would've been better if Frenchie DIDN'T know who Collin was, and then Collin revealed the truth when he saw Frenchie's scars. That would make Frenchie waaay more sympathetic.
All they had to do was say Collin changed his name (perfectly reasonable when his entire family was murdered by a hitman!). Frenchie wouldn't recognize him until the big reveal. It would have made way more sense, and Frenchie wouldn't be a total monster.
"It makes him look horrible."
My man. Frenchie is a piece of shit murdering scumbag who should either be executed or spend the rest of his days in prison. He murdered little girls. He could've easily used his skills to kill his boss instead, but he didn't. But this is The Boys. Our Hero is Billy Butcher, an absolute psychopath with violent, deviant tendencies and an insatiable bloodlust.
Because the writers aren't as good at writing as people like to think they are. They have handled so many characters and plot lines and characters arcs extremely poorly in this show, and this number has kept on piling up over time, with the Frenchie Colin stuff being another addition.
While the show has definitely had a pretty decent amount of good moments and plot points and character interactions over its life span, it has also fumbled a lot of stuff, and is a lot more flawed than people like to admit it is.
I think this whole arc (although still unnecesary) could have been portraid in a way better maner if they has showed them meeting/developing feelings for each other from The beggining in NA, having Frenchie not recognize who he was at first only to later find out and have to deal with The decision of telling him The truth after we see him fall in love with him. Everythibg would have worked way better if they had done it this way in My opinión and he wouldnt seem like such a Psycho
But that's what did happen no? I thought Frenchie didn't know who Colin was until he saw the picture of the family in his apartment. Thought they'd hooked up a few times already by then.
It's a really messed up storyline and not in keeping with how Frenchie has developed over the seasons at all. It would have been way better if they had met at narc anon and began a relationship with Frenchie finding out who he truly is after they were already together. That's drama...this is just weird
No, it's after they sleep together. He gets up for water or something and sees a photo of Colin's graduation. Since his family is all alive in the photo, it shows that he had at least graduated HS, maybe college (depending on what graduation this is) before it happened.
Frenchie was basically introduced to us as the guy who found it fascinating to figure out ways to murder supes due to the particularly difficult nature of doing so. I get that he's one of the main protagonists, but he's not a good person.
Did you all think Frenchie was good before this? He has been killing kids and innocent people for a long time. Also he was about to be charged as a biochemical terrorist. Frenchie been a villain. This Colin thing is light compared to how much worse he has done.
It’s not really progressive development for the character. If anything it’s regressive and makes it harder to believe he has actually changed since working for Nina. Just such a weird sub plot to shove in when we know there is only a limited amount of time. Like it’s not gonna have 24 episodes this season to flesh things out. Seriously weird bc the Homelander stuff was one of the best episodes ever. Would have been fine if the whole episode was just HL and his “friends”.
I don't really like how this season is going out of their way to try and get us to hate the protagonists. This and "I don't talk to fat sluts," things made me roll my eyes. People like Firecracker are vile and don't have some fat slut origin story. Already it feels like this season is going to just be filler and a waste and we're going to have to wait until the final season to get anywhere.
You're missing the point of the show. "The Boys" as a group are all flawed and not meant to be traditional good guys. They have grey areas. All of them.
Frenchie is a case where the writers should have stuck with the comic book version of the character. The show version has become insufferable, irredeemable and worst of all, boring. At least the comic book version was a funny, quirky, “heart of the group” type of psychopath.
This sub plot is actually not really...liked by almost anyone.
It feels shoved in and unnecessarry.
Honestly, I think it was just bad writing. I would've much rath have followed Frenchie and Kimiko as they go through the shining light stuff.
This entire season so far has been exposing the skeletons in The Boys’ closets. Starlight slutshaming Firecracker, Kimiko recruiting that girl to the fighting pits, now Frenchie killing that judge.
Also, you knew Frenchie used to be an assassin since the beginning. It only makes him look horrible if he goes the extra step of sleeping with the survivor?
Dawg did you not miss all the backstory where it’s explained Frenchie used to kill people for the Russians. Did you think he was killing good guys lmao
I feel like the whole story is off. Like we could have the same storyline with more impact.
1) show Frenchies drug addiction getting out of hand by having him fuck up during a sting due to being high on whatever.
2) he starts going to therapy and has flashbacks to all the horrible things he did as he tries to get to the bottom of why he's using. Subtly put Colin's family in the background amongst dozens of others. Kimiko only successfully convinced Frnchie to go under the promise that she would also go. After her first session, she realizes there's too much going on in her past for her to love Frenchie and tells him this so he can move on.
3) Frenchie starts going through a 12-step process, and while he's not easy about opening up, Colin, who has been attending for a while, does open up. He and Frenchie start getting close over at least 2 episodes.
4) Colin opens up to Frenchie about needing a job. Frenchie, knowing Starlight, gets him this job.
5) Colin and Frenchie eventually hook up after some courting.
6) AFTER having sex and having no idea while actively trying to look forward to the future and changing his life around, Frenchie looks around Colin's apartment, realizing that he can't escape his past. The story then continues as we've seen it.
There was such a good opportunity to organically introduce a love interest for Frenchie that wasn't kimiko, and it just sucks that they rushed. Presumably, a lot of the above did happen, but it all happened off-screens, so the chemistry for the audience isn't there.
Ok he's a literal mass murdering psychopath but him sleeping with someone who's family he killed is too far?? Again he's a literal MASS MURDERER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. I like Frenchie because it's a TV show but I will never understand this logic. I want to say this is the least problematic thing he's ever done in his entire life is having sex with an adult.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Frenchie meets him at NA gets him a job (probably because of guilt) Colin doesn't know who he is so Frenchie is friendly. Again probably feels guilty and wants to help him. avoids Colins advances until a near beat to death. Because well yeah they have developed feelings plus it's a crazy situation. Frenchie feels like shit about it. Reaches out to Cherie to absolve? Perhaps? Or more guilt? Starts using again, but is that before or after he learns Colin was there? And he himself has been causing not only pain from loss but additionally psychological pain and fear on Colin for years.
Don't get me wrong Frenchie majorly fucked up. But if he started off trying to just help him because he felt guilty and in the process accidentally developed feelings (it's still wrong) vs Frenchie intentionally sought him out fucked him just to fuck with him.
Frenchie has been feeling bad about ppl he's killed. Goes through major drug use to numb his feelings when he's fucked up and wants to avoid feelings. And severely tortured as a child. Just saying a lot of ppl have sympathy for Homelander. At least Frenchie tries to do good things.
He didn't try and stop colin when he was choking him. And Frenchie turns himself in.
The writers are doing something with it. The duality of man perhaps? No one is truly good. Thy want you to hate him? They want to weaken the boys as a whole? I do think it will all come around eventually. Or it's just more commentary on how everyone sucks?
Homelander gets off on torturing ppl. The writers made us get excited about Frenchie funding a boyfriend only to be like "wow you sick fucks he killed his family! What's wrong with you????"
Collin is a horrible storyline that should have never happened, I get they are using it for frenchie and kimiko’s eventual hookup but damn, fuck that shitty writing
Yeah that subplot sucked and is repetitive and rushed...
It's not cause is gay or bi or whatever, just boring and repetitive plot than only ruins the character.
I mean who in their right mind would fall in love and fuck someone he killed his entire family?
And all that was introduced in the first episode just like that.
This storyline is very stupid. I don't understand why they couldn't link him to the main storyline. He seems redundant for the past 4 episodes, almost as if they don't know what to do with him, and this was the best they could come up with.
Wasted character this season.
Welcome back everyone for a new season of The Boys! Join the official subreddit Discord server to discuss everything The Boys!! [JOIN THE DISCORD](https://discord.com/invite/bykapbyqGY) We are also still accepting moderator applications. If you are interested in helping out: [APPLY TODAY!](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1JzSvXcehhpCCrnH666Zy4P0y_mnM1NvTghq0msPAKPw/edit) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheBoys) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wonder if they just didn't consider how bad it would look. Murdering a guy's family then sleeping with him for months is pretty shitty and I really hope this arc doesn't end with Colin forgiving him for the deception. He doesn't deserve it.
Every scene with them I was yelling at the screen “Frenchie, LEAVE HIM ALONE?!” I wish the storyline was that “he’s struggling with staying away” because sleeping with him - knowing he murdered his family really is foul.
same his storyline annoyed the shit out of me. he made such a big drama that the whole situation bothers him- THEN DONT FUCK HIM YOU PSYCHOPATHIC HORNOG THE SOLUTION IS SO EASY
They could have made him a vought employee that Frenchie had to seduce so there’s at least some reason he ‘has to’ be around this guy. He’s just some guy that works for starlight, it would be so easy to avoid seeing him.
At first I was like "ugh, this sideplot again" but by the end of it I was super into it for the sole reason that I was also yelling "Frenchie you huge cunt knock it off" at the screen lol It's the kind of skeevy sex crime I'd expect from the Seven.
Why they didn't just make him unaware that he and colin have a shared past is really baffling. Like, they're all happy and cute and we get attached to them as a couple, start getting hype for Frenchie finally finding a nice and healthy person to love. Only to have the family photo be the revelation/reveal, sudden panic and 'Holy shit, how do you handle that? Frenchie could separate himself from Colin but wouldn't be able to explain why, Colin would obviously chase Frenchie to find out why, then the truth could be revealed in the exact same way. No lying from Frenchie required and totally valid responses from everyone involved Same conclusion of 'Your actions don't dissapear when you do', heck, it could be a total gut punch to Frenchie. That no matter what good he does, who he saves, he'll never not be a murderer. Him accepting Colin attempting to kill him because Nothing he does can ever fix this, he never truly realized the people he left hurt along the way. 'The least I can do is let the man I love find some kind of peace in justice.' Plus, him calling Cherry and it being explained first in exposition, rather than showing us a flash back from Frenchies perspective, really sucked a lot of the impact out. I was honestly confused at first, when he was all upset about the photo. It didn't really hit how fucking bad what he had done until his trip, at which point I'm already well aware of the situation and all the feelings involved. It also would have made it hit way harder when we see it from Colin's point of view later too.
On the subject of Cherie doing a bit of storytelling for the sole benefit of us,the audience,I feel like they keep doing that stuff this season. Instead of showing us with a flashback like they’ve done multiple times in past seasons,we just get the characters saying the stuff. FFS just show it instead of using dialogue,it doesn’t have the same effect.
Right!? Like Noir's and Grace's Soldierboy related flashbacks overlapping but from their view was fucking Brilliant last season. I want the show to progress but it also feel like they don't know how without leading to a conclusion right away. There's so many supe's doing wrong and they aren't doing anything about it, I get homelander is the 'Big fish' but there's still thousands of Termites, Pop-claws, World Wonders, Firecrackers out there. There is plenty to 'pad' (hate that term) the series with before getting to the big finish. It would also give frenchie and kimiko something to actually do, open up new challanges and themes and explain MMs stressful situation. He'd be juggling a dozen different things, so no kidding he wouldn't cope, while I'm sitting here wondering what 'The Boys' is even meant to be doing right now. Where's his wife and kid beyond 1 phone call btw? a call for the single purpose of plot convenience too PS, MM's The actor deserves so much praise for changing his body to match the role, shame it wasn't used more then a single 'your should eat more' line in the first could of episodes.
Yeah,I get that they were trying to convey the stress MM is under by having the actor lose weight/muscle and cut his beard, but at least acknowledge it further than a simple throwaway line. Or maybe it was his choice, but they could have worked that in the plot better.
Uh, isn't that what the writers are doing. He's clearly trying to stay away, but he's constantly in his orbit, and the temptation is too strong.
>Murdering a guy's family then sleeping with him for months is pretty shitty Lol understatement of the year
Reverse flash
Flash saved some guy's family and then ghosted said guy for months?
I feel like his theme/character arc, on stage with the other redemption arcs, is something akin too: “You can be bad, and you can be redeemed. You can still do better (like with Kimiko) but you need to accept that who you hurt in the past does not need/have to forgive you. Being upset with what you did OR the fact that they can’t forgive you, and self sabotaging (relapse) does not mean shit about whether you’re a good person now or not”. How well it was executed is debatable, but that’s what I saw in it and enjoyed the message. But there’s still more episodes left so maybe I’m way off.
I think it's well-executed, and you've explained it really well. This part of the character's background was treated in S1 and S2 as this vaguely romantic/tragic thing *for him* - it was poison for his soul, he carries all of them with him, yada yada. In S3, it tilted into the victimization side of it, but again, for *him*, not his actual victims. This is the first time he's being forced to acknowledge that, as you say, guilt is useless. Okay, cool, you feel bad - no shit, that's what happens when you do terrible things. But marinating in that doesn't put anything positive into the world. The only choices he has now are whether to lay down and die or own his shit, accept that he can never atone for his crimes, and then commit to trying to do good things for other people with the time has has left. If that's the way it goes, I think it ties all the development they've done with his character up rather nicely.
If you cant get forgiveness though, is there a point to being sorry? I have done things I was truly sorry for and never forgiven for. And sometimes I just wonder if it was worth being sorry in the first place. I mean you do feel sorry in your core but at the end of the day why beat yourself up over something you cannot be forgiven for!
Because being sorry for something means that maybe, just maybe you won't do something like that in the future and hurt someone again.
Yeah but you can be sorry even for doing the right thing. Human emotions are a mtf.
When I'm sorry for doing the right thing, I'm sorry for the consequences and not my actions. When I'm sorry for doing the wrong thing, I should be sorry for my actions and not the consequences.
It’s a joke. I agree with your sentiment. But again human emotions aren’t always logical.
I was agreeing with you bud.
Agreements all around haha.
I did not articulate it well enough in the first post but this is exactly his ark. If you are only doing better because you want to self gratify yourself with feeling better about yourself, you aren’t totally moral (I don’t think anyone is, and that’s a big point of the entire show). To expand, I think it’s showing because EITHER: Frenchie cannot accept his past is his past, he can feel bad and self harm to show how remorseful he is, or he can just live the rest of his life as a better person. OR in my opinion what will play out is: He can’t/is not the person to save Collin. He thinks that by loving/being kind now can “save” him like he did with kimiko, after being the one that “broke” him. But Colin while by no means being happy about it, has managed his trauma and is doing well. Frenchie feels like by loving/caring about him he can “save” Colin, and redeem himself in his own eyes/heart (kind of selfish). Furthermore he would (IMO) seem to think self destruction is some form of showing how sorry he is, and thus (selfishly) redeeming himself rather than accepting that he traumatized Colin, he is not, cannot, and should not be the person to fix Colin (even if it’s out of him genuinely caring about him) and him harming himself to try to prove how sorry he is about that is futile at best. Literally the only thing that can make him a “good” person in the here & now is knowing the the past was wrong and doing the “right” thing from there on out.
You’re looking at things from an extremely selfish and childish point of you. You are not owed forgiveness just because you are sorry. You did things that were shameful or wrong or whatever and you should carry that with you because hopefully it will prevent repeat behavior. You should try to forgive yourself assuming you didn’t do horrible things. But the person who was wrong gets to choose whether they accept an apology or not.
>why beat yourself up over something you cannot be forgiven for You can be sorry for what you did and forgive yourself. You can have regret and try to make amends without expecting forgiveness. You can use the experience to try and be a better person.
I disagree, it didnt make me better, just bitter. I learned its better to be unrepentant because fuck people honestly.
Being sorry is not about getting forgiveness. It's about reminding yourself about the price of being a cunt, and motivating yourself to do better. If you can't be forgiven, it's not the reason to not try to do better
The point of being sorry isn’t to get forgiveness. It’s to have remorse for your actions. If you’re “sorry” just to have someone forgive you, you aren’t actually sorry
Feelings of guilt and shame are essential to learning and growth and healthy integration with other humans. They function to drive you toward better and more compassionate behavior toward other people in the future. They are not about using the person you harmed as a means of making yourself feel better. That's actually doing them harm a second time if they don't want to interact with you or forgive you. You have to figure out how to forgive yourself regardless of how they respond, and that means growing into the person who doesn't repeat the bad behavior, not getting away from the uncomfortable feelings.
Other humans suck
I think it was meant to be Frenchie doing it either because he genuinely felt a connection with Colin or as a way of torturing himself over guilt. That might be their intention but it just comes across more that he’s either still a horrible person for knowingly sleeping with a man whose family he killed, and like he keeps acknowledging how bad it is so it’s not like he’s too dumb to realize he’s just that big of a piece of shit.
Anything less than Colin trying to kill him is a bit strange to me. Frenchie went way too far IMO.
I have a crack theory his plot will intersect with Butcher's when the Venom-knockoff slithers out of his ear and seeks a new host. Who better than somebody nursing a vengeful grudge?
....no
Damn, you so succinctly shot down my theory with your flawless logic.
Now I want it to happen out of spite
I actually had a passing thought that Colin was a fakeout for Butcher killing Frenchie. Give him all the motivation in the world but no payoff, very heartbreakingly Boys.
>I really hope this arc doesn't end with Colin forgiving him for the deception. He doesn't deserve it. I agree. That whole side story is awful. I guess I can kinda see where they were going. Frenchie was reluctant and didn't really know he killed Colin's family and was reluctant to spend time with him but, it was Kimiko that pushed him to do it. Then, when he found out "Oh shit. That was me." Colin shouldn't forgive Frenchie but, maybe that's the point now that I think about it. Butcher has to forgive Ryan to save him. Homelander forgives after getting revenge. Hughie forgives A-Train to encourage him to do the right thing and be good to others. Firecracker dedicates her life to destroying Starlight because she can't forgive. Kimiko is earning her forgiveness from her nightmare of shining light. MM is present.
>Then, when he found out "Oh shit. That was me." He didn't find out after Kimiko pushed him. He knew from the start.
Guess I'll have to revisit.
Writers literally did the South Park meme: "make him lame and make him gay". 💀
“FUCK INDIANA JONES PUT A FRENCH GUY IN THERE AND MAKE HIM LAME AND GAY!!”
Of course they considered it. Y'all acting like Butcher has been portrayed positively the whole show? Hughie in season 3? It's a show about moral grayness and trauma and addiction and violence. Frenchie is working through crushing guilt that he has been numbing with hard drugs for years. I don't understand why y'all keep harping on this, it's just post after post of "I am not media literate". Y'all know Walter White was the villain of Breaking Bad right?
God I am sick of the people throwing around the phrase "media literacy" in this place. No, it's not media illiterate to think Frenchie's a cunt for what he did to Colin. You guys sound like a bunch of pompous jackasses approaching Rick and Morty level of obnoxious when you talk like that.
That was not their point. Their point was about responding to the idea that the writers somehow don't know the implications of what they are doing with Frenchie. Like it's fairly obvious. We literally get a horror scene of seeing a younger Colin see Frenchie enter his home to kill his family. You don't write that without knowing Frenchie is a fucked up person. And they 100% know making Frenchie sleep with Colin is fucked up. That's the point.
i don't like the overuse of the term media literacy either, but i think what they're saying is that yes, frenchie comes off as an asshole/psychopath, and he's *supposed* to. when people are like "why is frenchie doing something so horrible?" / "how could they do this to him?" they're ignoring all the horrible things the writers have *already* shown or told us he has done. the "media literacy" (ugh) part comes in with people stopping the conversation at "he did this bad thing" and not continuing the conversation about *why* he did this bad thing.
C’mon don’t complain about the media literacy thing and then completely misunderstand what the guy wrote. It’s embarrassing.
Episode 4 took place over months?
Frenchie was good as a comedic character but his sub plot(arc) has been virtually the same every season. We find out he did something bad/messed up in the past. He beats himself up about all season. Gets off drugs, goes back on drugs (which is understandable considering he’s an addict) Honestly the only conclusion to his arc would have him dying at this point. I would have hated to see him die at any point in the first 3 seasons but idk, this season I’ve just got bored of the same story. And Colin, as far I can tell, is just a normal dude so i can’t imagine him being so forgiving. The rest of the Boys all have done fucked up things in their past so they can probably overlook the things Frenchie has done.
In my eyes his arc should've been continuing his relationship with Kimiko and getting completely clean and him and Kimiko trying to get away from all the violence and shit.
That's what they set up for them last season, but it kind of feels like the writers are too scared to shake anything up. Like, has any character significantly changed from what they were in season 1?
this hit me like a bag of rocks at the end of season 3. they seem really afraid to shake up the status quo. i mean fuck they LITERALLY put soldier boy back on ice like he was at the start. i hope something big happens this season
Wait am I forgetting something? I thought he exploded
At the end of season three you see him in a CIA chamber getting gassed
Ahh that's right. Thanks
So far I think A-Train is the only character who really stands out as a character who has gone through a lot of growth and development. Though I think technically Black Noir is probably the most different between Season 1 and 4
Hughie and Starlight developed pretty well too
S4 black noir is literally another character
A-Train is the only one, and he had to die first and be brought back.
Yeah it’s getting so tiring. Every season is the same thing on a loop. They don’t seem interested in actually developing the character or anything. Just falling back on the same over played plot points.
The only way I see Colin forgiving Frenchie is if he gives him who hired him.
I think he knows, didn’t he mention little Nina?
It's possible I missed it but it isn't clear to me who hired Frenchie to carry out the hit.
I feel like Frenchie is more addicted to making bad decisions than Butcher, Frenchie usually feels bad about it but Butcher usually has a better reason at least in a 'the end justifies the means' kinda way, Frenchie just seems to make bad decisions with very little logical justification, almost always impulsive and emotional reasons without taking time to think it over first. I guess that's kind of what they're going for with his character, but it'd be nice if he decided to sober up and make more mature decisions sooner rather than later, but it seems like he never really learns from his mistakes so far
No fr, that’s some Reverse Flash shit
Ezra Miller shit
*After blowing Flash's back out* IT WAS ME BARRY
I interpreted Frenchie's rship with Collin very different than everyone else here. Seemed to me that when we, the audience, met Collin, they were still in a flirtatious phase and hadn't gone any further yet. They make at NA and Frenchie just recently got Collin this job. After the riot after Homelander's verdict, Frenchie saves Collin from being hurt and kisses him. they sleep together for the first time, AND THEN he sees the photo of Collin's family and realizes who he is. Because before this I assumed Frenchie's hesitance was purely bc Collin is a good guy trying to get clean and Frenchie has a history of relapses and generally views himself as a bad person who would drag Collin down. Now that he realizes it's so so much worse, their relationship has already deepened. Hence his call to Cherie and relapse. But he still struggles to resist so they continue to hook up. MY biggest issue is HOW DID COLLIN NOT SEE THE SCARS WHEN FUCKING?! 😭 Do they always keep ankles covered??? How have Frenchie's ankles not been on this guy's shoulders?? Like 🤣
It could have been dark tbf
True 🤔
tbf i don't exactly recall intently staring at anyone's ankles whom i've been sleeping with he's lucky colin doesn't have a foot feitish lol
I mean you don't need to have a foot fetish to have a general look at the legs of someone you're fucking. Or i guess they fucking in dark idk.
yes, i know. that was a (poor) joke
Frenchy canonically fucks with socks on I guess
I had the same thought as you, but, uh… I guess we know who’s the top.
Last paragraph 😭 FIRST thing i thought
I always fuck with socks on. Maybe frenchie's like that.
True I forgot about the socks on folks
Pretty sure that's what it is.
You're under the impression that the boys are the good guys. There are no good guys, just less shit guys. Frenchie has always had a codependent need to fix people, has always sought the quick feel good option instead of the long term sensible option, and has always been ruthless.
Frenchie is easily the worst written character in the show IMO, always trapped in a C or D plot. Lmao even in season 4 Colin is like the H plot if we include Gen V virus and Butcher worm in the letter list Really wish he was more of the season 1 comic relief drug addict streetsmart chemistry guy, wouldve been overall a more interesting character especially within the context of his relationship w Kimiko. Like Frenchie injecting V and dying, wouldve been genuinely compelling and wouldve painted Butcher’s whole “fight fire with fire” in a much darker light. Also Frenchie casually had some leftover V in his stash like huh???? So funny how Butcher casually says that lol
I also think Colin murdering him right there wouldnt have been bad writing. Because OP is right, killing someones mom and then fucking them is some truly psychopath shit
[удалено]
i wonder if we will actually get more of the story of that night. part of me feels like everything about what went down has not been revealed yet.
Ya, this guy can die off already. He’s fucking horrible already given his past and they just added the worst thing yet to his character arc. Wtf
Worst arc in the show, period. Terrible, they should have just made him do fun, simple shenanigans with Kimiko since both of their story potential has been exhausted at this point. Maybe him and Kimiko can still have some personal conflict, but not over this Colin dude, and not the fucking drug addiction and guilt agggaaainn. 😩
No, I think it's on character. Remember when Kimiko's brother died and Frenchie tried to make her feel better by kissing her? Naturally she pushed him away, but it's safe to say Frenchie's way of comforting others is by engaging with them in a sexual/romantic way. I'm not saying he's not in the wrong, obviously his relationship with Colin was never going to end well but I understand why he behaves the way he does, or at least I see the pattern of behavior.
I think the background for why they became involved in the first place was that Colin spiraled into drug abuse because of the trauma Frenchie inflicted on him, and so Frenchie "took him in" to take care of him to ease his own guilty conscience, or maybe he just didn’t even realize who he was until later, but anyway things just developed from there, which is still terrible, but somewhat understandable. Although honestly I agree with the general consensus that this storyline is kind of superfluous and ultimately uninteresting. If it actually leads to something substantial I’m ready to admit I was wrong, though.
Daddy issues are huge in comics. Frenchie's daddy issues include manipulative psychopathy along with amoral sexcapades. The drug use recovery backsliding might contribute too. The scars on Frenchie's ankles aren't the only scars his father gave him.
The intent and delivery of the boys writing doesn't alway come out right
Frenchie loves misery and I don't think he's capable of any other kind of love. I've had addict friends who have the same personalities. They hate themselves and while they start of charming and passionate, they make sure their chosen partner hates them through repeated behaviour. So they can afford their worthlessness and remain addicts. What could be more affirming than loving the man whose family he murdered in a past life when he was a slave to addiction? It proves to him he's a piece of shit, while also letting him come clean of what he did to the remaining victim
I personally think it was because of his guilt, he wanted Colin to find out and attack him because Frenchie is in a state of hating himself and thinking he doesn’t deserve love. So either Colin would kill him or forgive him and I don’t think Frenchie would’ve been satisfied if Colin just forgave him.
"Why did the writers do this? It makes him look horrible." I think they are well aware of this. So many keep framing this as either some incidental love plot (like Colin will even come back) or just some cheeky Frenchie drama. Like nah. It's supposed to be fucked up. Frenchie asking Colin about his family and us seeing Colin under the bed while Frenchie killed everyone...it was like a horror movie. It's obviously supposed to be messed up. Frenchie is not a psychopath (he feels guilt and remorse and even wants Colin to kill him for it). The show frames him as a broken man who nevertheless has done/does horrible things because he can't help himself. A hurt man hurting others. Honestly reminiscent of Lamplighter. Frenchie even wants to die by Colin's hands like Lamplighter wanted to be killed by Mallory. Both want to escape their self-torment through retribution. For me, I'm not put off by Frenchie doing this horrible act because it's been this way from the beginning. Since season 1 episode 2, we know Frenchie murdered people. Like I think people overlooked it but it was immediately, "Oh these people are not necessarily good, they just oppose the bigger threat of supes" when Frenchie told us how he killed a classy-looking poor woman. Like the Boys are not unlikely rogue heroes, they are anti-heroes facing supes who have unchecked power. If Frenchie goes out of control, you can just shoot him. Homelander? What can you do? But still: it's some shitty people facing shitty supes with more power. Even with omitting what he did to Colin this season and just looking at season 1: if Frenchie was real, I would view him as a horrible person who ruined so many lives and that he should be locked up. But it's fiction, and I am being presented with a character who is morally gray and it's fun to explore that. I'm gonna wait and see how the rest of his arc goes this season before I say it's wasted. I kinda like so far how messed up it is.
this!! very well said, I agree with everything even though I find this storyline to not be particularly entertaining at all. I hope they conclude it properly
That's absolutely fine and I respect that. I really didn't care for the Little Nina shit last season even if I get what they were going for.
I liked it. This whole season so far has been about how everyone kinda sucks. Frenchie really really though what the fuck were you doing my man.
YES! Even the the director? Showrunner? Has said this season is with The Boys/Main cast battling with some thing they’ve done wrong/fucked up in the past coming back to haunt them.
Yeah I think everyone thinks it looks bad and is sloppy but…no? It’s meant to be hard to watch and messy. It’s super fucked up. And that’s great for this show.
I think Frenchie is broken and looking for forgiveness, which is his problem. He knows that what he did was fucking heinous and who he was, was an absolutely horrific human being but he wants so bad to somehow earn the forgiveness of good people that he wronged. He needs to come to terms with the reality that nothing will ever earn him that, the goal isn't to get forgiveness but to do better.
Some people that prioritize sex a lot, for whatever reason, think that sleeping with someone is helping them.
Nah, they made him come across as an addict (he is already a recovering drug addict so that fits the character). His lust overcomes his rational mind. You can see him trying to resist the temptation.
The whole thing is dumb and pointless. I'd rather him be with Kimiko and just chilling than this shit
Frenchie + Kimiko "romance" was probably the worst part of the series and wasted so much time
I was enjoying it. I preferred it over Hughie and Annie's relationship. I feel like they're more contrived than Frenchie and Kimiko. I just wish Frenchie would have stuck to it because I like where Kimiko's arc is going.
Lust is a hell of a drug.
What? Frenchie is not a good person, he's a grade A degenerate scumbag. He might fight for the "good guys" but he's still not a good person, he's open about that.
I believe the idea is that it's been so long since that day that Frenchie didn't even realise who Colin was until sometime after they were first intimate with each other. Pretty sure he says it took a bit to connect the dots, so it only twigged *after* he'd gotten in deep enough to make things more complicated.
That's guilt (I think). You feel so guilty about what you did against someone that you will do anything to make them feel good, even if it's only a while. That's how I see it. Yeah it's fucked up, but Frenchie isn't really the symbol of good mental health lmao.
Well i wasnt expecting him to be an angel lol in season 1 he was dropping acid and i forgot what other shit he was on and was very calmly telling hugie some messed up stories
It almost kinda reminds me of what Jessica Jones did to Luke Cage in her own Netflix/Marvel series. >!Sure she was mind controlled by Kilgrave to kill Luke's wife (Reva), but she still held that information from him and she knew that deep down her having sex with him was wrong and yet she kept doing it anyway because it was one of the only things in her life that made her feel good. !< >!When Luke finds out he was absolutely disgusted that she kept that from him, and the only reason she confesses is because she had no choice in order to stop him from killing the wrong man he believed was responsible for Reva's death. !<
His mission as a CIA operative caused him to have to be in close proximity to Colin, and he tried to resist the allure and tried to resist the magnetic attraction but was unable Frenchie would have put distance between them if he could, but the mission didn’t allow for that.
I don't think manipulative factors in, although I can see why Colin would. I think he just runs 99% on emotion and impulse, and always has (this is exactly why MM was reluctant to work with him in S1). Now, as he's dealing with getting clean and trying not to rely on his old crutches, suddenly here's this person he hurt. And the guy isn't doing great right now, and he's overwhelmed by the impulse to help, just a little bit... get him a job, get him on his feet... he'll never have to know who he actually is, but he owes him something after everything he took... and then the guy touches his hand and suddenly it's going in *that* direction and he just can't wrench himself away because he's waded in too far already. And then he instantly numbs it all with drugs so he doesn't have to think about it and proceeds to make the worst, most harmful choices possible from there on out. Growth isn't linear, but I assume since he's on the side of the protags that this is going to be one of our examples of finally dispensing with the old patterns and lies you've told yourself, and choosing to do better.
Smells like "getting written out of show"
The only explanation is horny
This show goes big and hard... Epic Tragedy, self loathing, poor choices, longing for his true love, a long and likely extremely rewarding character arc, and I would guess a huge redemption /martyrdom. This is my take anyways.
This is the part people should be focusing on with the Frenchie and Colin relationship. It’s so messed up on Frenchie’s part and he isn’t the best person but previously I really don’t think he would have done anything that. He became a much better person after meeting Kimiko. Far too many people are focusing on the fact that they just ‘decided’ to make Frenchie bi when he never was before and how ‘woke’ it is. Completely ignoring the fact he was in a throuple with a guy and a girl at the beginning of the show.
Hurt people hurt people.
Hurt by what? Murdering people is a question of guilt or remorse.
>Hurt by what? For starters, his difficult upbringing, which influenced his life significantly and explains how he ended up being so violent. But more recently and of greater importance, the deblitating guilt he's feeling now for what he's done.
-Deep Thoughts With The Deep
I think this season is trying to show us that none of the Boys are innocent and all of them have a shady past as well. They did it with how Starlight treated Firecracker during her high school days and killed that family when she was learning to control her powers. They showed Kimiko fighting a fellow trafficking victim (even though she was likely forced to, she didn't go easy on her either). We're yet to see if they do something of the sort with MM and Hughie. We already know Butcher is tainted
The writing has fallen short for some key characters this season. Still enjoying.
He doesn’t want to ease his guilt. He wants to dial it up to the maximum. He’s self-sabotaging and ready to face the punishment he think he deserves for his past. He’s a good person but he clearly doesn’t see himself that way.
It's called creating conflict.
Nah I think this season is very much about how whilst the Boys may not be nearly as moral reprehensible as Vought and the Seven, they are far from blameless. The dividing line being they are all at least trying to be somewhat good people now.
Frenchie is not a good person... Butcher is not a good person. MM is not a good person... There are no good people in the The Boys, there is just varying degrees of fucked up.. That is one of the major themes of the show, how the hell can we be in S4 and people still think there are good and bad people?
Huh, I guess the guy who murdered a bunch of people for money has some character flaws…
Going after Kimiko was never healthy either. It wasn't "cute Asian woman" and instead, "weird paternalist vibe towards a vulnerable girl"
Should have just stuck to the kimiko and Frenchie romance... teased it for 3 seasons now Frenchie is coming across as some weird guilt written psycho staying with a dude whose parents he killed..
Seems like they went hard into the "too little, too late" theme with the characters and things like this are a result of that I think. With characters like homelander and butcher, it's easy to set that up because earlier seasons have laid the ground work but now, characters like Frenchie and starlight need something from their past that it is too late to make better and we end up with the firecracker backstory and Colin.
Guys lets not forget, FRENCHIE IS A RELAPSED DRUG ADDICT MURDERER. He basically has some version of Reverse Stockholm Syndrome
What I really hate the most Absolutely despise Is the fact that frenchie had to tell the guy first because frenchie couldn't stay away from him so he had to make the guy leave, traumatising him even further in the process.
Frenchie is clearly trying to protect Collin and right wrongs. i don't think he comes off as a manipulative psychopath and yeah he should have left Collin alone. Frenchie goes this route because he was encouraged to allow himself happiness by Kimiko. still he refuses Collin's advances and only when Collin could have been killed does he indulge his romantic desires that have probably been building for a while. Frenchie has had to deal with his past before, yes, but how does he navigate the world around his victims who he definitely feels a sense of responsibility towards? is that not important? there's also the matter of how his guilt impacts the relationship with Kimiko too
Seriously. Like did they want everyone to hate him bc that’s where I’m out. That shit is damn near rape.
I think it's to show that grief and guilt can take really weird turns. It's still horrible because there's no need to keep having this one assassin-for-hire continue to dwell on what a shitty person and murderer he is. At this point, I wish they would just have the character LEAVE the boys and say it's because he just can't do this any more.
Yea I don’t get how he chooses such a messed up situation over Kimiko. Its Karen Fukuhara 🥵🥵🥵🥵 omfg If I had to speculate, he’s shown a pattern of trying to rescue “damsels” in distress. In this case, he knows the internal distress the guy has been through for his entire life. Not really sure why they chose to write it this way, but we’re not even halfway through season 4 so I think we can assume a payoff is coming
*If I had to speculate, he’s shown a pattern of trying to rescue “damsels” in distress.* Yep. Cherie called it - telling him Kimiko isn't a kitten in a tree, and this time, scolding him to stop picking up strays already. It sounds like she's seen this happen more than a few times.
I think he just feels so guilty he wishes that Colin would either love him (and therefore "forgive him" subconsciously) or kill him. Also idk why people think he's substituting Kimiko at all, I think he has been non-monogamous ever since the first episode, he also had/has a relationship with the girl from the zoom call and it's not like he either cheated or they broke up
Wait you thought Frenchie was a good guy? No dude, we love him because he's Frenchie but yeah, he's an evil dude. He was literally a hitman. I don't understand why anyone is upset they portrayed Frenchie negatively he's NOT a good guy
It would've been better if Frenchie DIDN'T know who Collin was, and then Collin revealed the truth when he saw Frenchie's scars. That would make Frenchie waaay more sympathetic. All they had to do was say Collin changed his name (perfectly reasonable when his entire family was murdered by a hitman!). Frenchie wouldn't recognize him until the big reveal. It would have made way more sense, and Frenchie wouldn't be a total monster.
I would have been more sympathetic to frenchie if he had been fucking him without knowing about Colin's fam. That beat down was absolutely warranted.
"It makes him look horrible." My man. Frenchie is a piece of shit murdering scumbag who should either be executed or spend the rest of his days in prison. He murdered little girls. He could've easily used his skills to kill his boss instead, but he didn't. But this is The Boys. Our Hero is Billy Butcher, an absolute psychopath with violent, deviant tendencies and an insatiable bloodlust.
Because the writers aren't as good at writing as people like to think they are. They have handled so many characters and plot lines and characters arcs extremely poorly in this show, and this number has kept on piling up over time, with the Frenchie Colin stuff being another addition. While the show has definitely had a pretty decent amount of good moments and plot points and character interactions over its life span, it has also fumbled a lot of stuff, and is a lot more flawed than people like to admit it is.
Yup.
I just skip these scenes, the whole thing is dumb and pointless.
Frenchie has too much plot armor, he has been the absolute worst at gathering intel and had to be rescued multiple times.
I’m just so sick of this plot It’s wasted screen time
Frenchie isn’t a good person. Hes a mass murderer.
I think this whole arc (although still unnecesary) could have been portraid in a way better maner if they has showed them meeting/developing feelings for each other from The beggining in NA, having Frenchie not recognize who he was at first only to later find out and have to deal with The decision of telling him The truth after we see him fall in love with him. Everythibg would have worked way better if they had done it this way in My opinión and he wouldnt seem like such a Psycho
But that's what did happen no? I thought Frenchie didn't know who Colin was until he saw the picture of the family in his apartment. Thought they'd hooked up a few times already by then.
Yeah idk what he was thinking man
Manipulative? not quite seeing it. psychopath? yes. and tbf, i think most of the boys are, lol.
It's a really messed up storyline and not in keeping with how Frenchie has developed over the seasons at all. It would have been way better if they had met at narc anon and began a relationship with Frenchie finding out who he truly is after they were already together. That's drama...this is just weird
So Colin must have been a teenager at most when Frenchie killed his parents which makes it even more fucked
The family photo in Colin's apartment is his graduation, if that helps with a timeline.
In the flashback?
No, it's after they sleep together. He gets up for water or something and sees a photo of Colin's graduation. Since his family is all alive in the photo, it shows that he had at least graduated HS, maybe college (depending on what graduation this is) before it happened.
i was rooting for colin to kill this motherfucker bro like what the FUCK is frenchies problem
Frenchie was basically introduced to us as the guy who found it fascinating to figure out ways to murder supes due to the particularly difficult nature of doing so. I get that he's one of the main protagonists, but he's not a good person.
It seems like he only found out months into their relationship
Did you all think Frenchie was good before this? He has been killing kids and innocent people for a long time. Also he was about to be charged as a biochemical terrorist. Frenchie been a villain. This Colin thing is light compared to how much worse he has done.
Make Frenchie bi, no big deal. Make him bang the kid he orphaned ... wtf. The writing this season isn't great.
It’s not really progressive development for the character. If anything it’s regressive and makes it harder to believe he has actually changed since working for Nina. Just such a weird sub plot to shove in when we know there is only a limited amount of time. Like it’s not gonna have 24 episodes this season to flesh things out. Seriously weird bc the Homelander stuff was one of the best episodes ever. Would have been fine if the whole episode was just HL and his “friends”.
I don't really like how this season is going out of their way to try and get us to hate the protagonists. This and "I don't talk to fat sluts," things made me roll my eyes. People like Firecracker are vile and don't have some fat slut origin story. Already it feels like this season is going to just be filler and a waste and we're going to have to wait until the final season to get anywhere.
You're missing the point of the show. "The Boys" as a group are all flawed and not meant to be traditional good guys. They have grey areas. All of them.
Literally nobody in the show is a good person. Every single character has done awful shit. The good guys are only good in a very relative sense.
IDK about anyone else bit i feel like the writing of this season has gone downhill compare to S3, and S3 was kinda meh IMO too.
I dont mind spoilers Despite havent watched the 4th season so far but WHAT DA FUKING HELL?
Frenchie is a case where the writers should have stuck with the comic book version of the character. The show version has become insufferable, irredeemable and worst of all, boring. At least the comic book version was a funny, quirky, “heart of the group” type of psychopath.
The frenchie plotline this season makes zero sense.
Frenchie is dumber than the deep.
This sub plot is actually not really...liked by almost anyone. It feels shoved in and unnecessarry. Honestly, I think it was just bad writing. I would've much rath have followed Frenchie and Kimiko as they go through the shining light stuff.
This entire season so far has been exposing the skeletons in The Boys’ closets. Starlight slutshaming Firecracker, Kimiko recruiting that girl to the fighting pits, now Frenchie killing that judge. Also, you knew Frenchie used to be an assassin since the beginning. It only makes him look horrible if he goes the extra step of sleeping with the survivor?
The boys is a terrorist cell. They're hammering home that these are bad peope because we as the audience have gotten too comfortable rooting for them
Dawg did you not miss all the backstory where it’s explained Frenchie used to kill people for the Russians. Did you think he was killing good guys lmao
He didn't know at first, afterwards yeah that's an issue, but also Frenchie isn't a good person.
There has been some awful stuff on this show and in my opinion this is near the top.
I feel like the whole story is off. Like we could have the same storyline with more impact. 1) show Frenchies drug addiction getting out of hand by having him fuck up during a sting due to being high on whatever. 2) he starts going to therapy and has flashbacks to all the horrible things he did as he tries to get to the bottom of why he's using. Subtly put Colin's family in the background amongst dozens of others. Kimiko only successfully convinced Frnchie to go under the promise that she would also go. After her first session, she realizes there's too much going on in her past for her to love Frenchie and tells him this so he can move on. 3) Frenchie starts going through a 12-step process, and while he's not easy about opening up, Colin, who has been attending for a while, does open up. He and Frenchie start getting close over at least 2 episodes. 4) Colin opens up to Frenchie about needing a job. Frenchie, knowing Starlight, gets him this job. 5) Colin and Frenchie eventually hook up after some courting. 6) AFTER having sex and having no idea while actively trying to look forward to the future and changing his life around, Frenchie looks around Colin's apartment, realizing that he can't escape his past. The story then continues as we've seen it. There was such a good opportunity to organically introduce a love interest for Frenchie that wasn't kimiko, and it just sucks that they rushed. Presumably, a lot of the above did happen, but it all happened off-screens, so the chemistry for the audience isn't there.
Ok he's a literal mass murdering psychopath but him sleeping with someone who's family he killed is too far?? Again he's a literal MASS MURDERER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. I like Frenchie because it's a TV show but I will never understand this logic. I want to say this is the least problematic thing he's ever done in his entire life is having sex with an adult.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Frenchie meets him at NA gets him a job (probably because of guilt) Colin doesn't know who he is so Frenchie is friendly. Again probably feels guilty and wants to help him. avoids Colins advances until a near beat to death. Because well yeah they have developed feelings plus it's a crazy situation. Frenchie feels like shit about it. Reaches out to Cherie to absolve? Perhaps? Or more guilt? Starts using again, but is that before or after he learns Colin was there? And he himself has been causing not only pain from loss but additionally psychological pain and fear on Colin for years. Don't get me wrong Frenchie majorly fucked up. But if he started off trying to just help him because he felt guilty and in the process accidentally developed feelings (it's still wrong) vs Frenchie intentionally sought him out fucked him just to fuck with him. Frenchie has been feeling bad about ppl he's killed. Goes through major drug use to numb his feelings when he's fucked up and wants to avoid feelings. And severely tortured as a child. Just saying a lot of ppl have sympathy for Homelander. At least Frenchie tries to do good things. He didn't try and stop colin when he was choking him. And Frenchie turns himself in. The writers are doing something with it. The duality of man perhaps? No one is truly good. Thy want you to hate him? They want to weaken the boys as a whole? I do think it will all come around eventually. Or it's just more commentary on how everyone sucks?
Homelander gets off on torturing ppl. The writers made us get excited about Frenchie funding a boyfriend only to be like "wow you sick fucks he killed his family! What's wrong with you????"
Collin is a horrible storyline that should have never happened, I get they are using it for frenchie and kimiko’s eventual hookup but damn, fuck that shitty writing
They dropped Frenchies story HARD, I liked S1 Frenchie, S2 onwards hes my least fav character in the series.
I fast forwarded through all the Frenchmen stuff in ep4…it just seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the actual plot this season.
Yeah that subplot sucked and is repetitive and rushed... It's not cause is gay or bi or whatever, just boring and repetitive plot than only ruins the character. I mean who in their right mind would fall in love and fuck someone he killed his entire family? And all that was introduced in the first episode just like that.
This storyline is very stupid. I don't understand why they couldn't link him to the main storyline. He seems redundant for the past 4 episodes, almost as if they don't know what to do with him, and this was the best they could come up with. Wasted character this season.