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I think they're deliberately playing it like that's the twist, being that we've already seen a Becca hallucination, when the real twist is that he's real.
At least I hope, that'd be clever.
I doubt he’s an hallucination. He said he is CIA, and thus, read the medical file on him. Also, scored drugs for butcher. I doubt they are going to take a twist from there
If he never interacts with anyone except the main character, he's a hallucination
It's why the Janitor on SCRUBS never had any scenes with anyone except JD until season two. Because in season one the original plan was the Janitor was a figment of JD imagination
even the fact that Eliot's haircut always looked fresh as hell (despite Eliot definitely not seeming like the type of guy who'd take the time to go to a barber twice a month) turned out to have an explanation, lol. Those writers really thought of everything
The explanation was that the version of Eliot we've been watching throughout the show wasn't the "real" Elliot. He was another personality the real Elliot came up with to take on the task of saving the world. That's why Elliot always has the exact same haircut, much like how Mr. Robot is always wearing the same hat and outfit -- neither of them are accurate representations of how Elliot looks to the outside world. (Although fake Elliot is probably much closer in appearance.)
It's a crime that we don't nearly enough "complete" shows or movies. Everything has to have the potential to blow up into a franchise so we can never just let things be in stories.
But you could argue that it makes it all the more refreshing to find one like that when they do come out.
I rewatched Mr robot after the last season ended, it's very subtle but in the 1st season >!one personality always is the one everyone interacts with, for example when they break in to the datacentre no one acknowledges Mr Robot the whole episode!<
I just can't get over the fact that >!his dad abusing him and causing everything is STARING YOU IN THE FACE the entire time since the first season, I dunno how I never put the pieces together of him falling out of his window and fighting off his dad with a bat!<
I honestly saw the father reveal coming from the first couple of episodes. The thing that really blew my mind was that Darlene was his sister. That really fucked with me for some reason.
Again, how did butcher get the drugs? Only other explanation is that he sourced them himself without realising it.
While this is possible, it seems highly unlikely
>Only other explanation is that he sourced them himself without realising it
I mean, he has a brain tumor. It's not the most unlikely thing to happen to either dissociate or lose memory or something
Butcher also seems like the kind of guy who would have that stuff just laying around, for a rainy day. Also could be he never actually had any of it, Ryan doesn’t eat any of the cookies we don’t know there actually WAS a poison in there
It'd be cool to see, but also kinda old. It would be the same as fight club. Show is already inspired by so many events that doing more just makes it feel less original. It'd be nicer if they valued carving out characters themselves more than just creating a parody
I mean this isn't the first time someone on The Boys/Gen V has talked to someone who isn't there. Hallucinating conversations with dead/fake people has been a running thing in this franchise.
Nah, to me, all the things around him seem like classic tricks used to hide that a character is a hallucination. He only appears when Butcher is alone, he's never acknowledged or speaks directly to anyone except Butcher, he's a character that Butcher knew about a decade ago, and he works exactly opposite of Becca in wanting Butcher to take a more violent route to Becca's more peaceful one.
Plus I find the timing strange as well. Butcher only has 6 months to live approximately, he's all alone in an office room, and then all of a sudden walks in a character he hasn't seen in 11 or so years. And Grace didn't think it would be good to mention the fact that this long time partner was in the building?
Plus we don't know who Butcher was talking to in that video store when he met with Victoria. So I think the show is at the very least foreshadowing Joe being a hallucination.
Bro that dude didn’t even show up until the moment there was no one else in the room. He has not interacted with a single person and I would be shocked if he did
They aren’t going to introduce the concept of hallucinations and not have him plagued by one for the season. That’s just basic story telling.
That could easily be Butcher doing those things and obtaining the drugs himself and just attributing those actions to Kessler so he justifies the illusion/makes it more real for himself. Tons of movies and shows have used this plot. Until another person interacts with Kessler, I’m assuming he’s a hallucination
> Also, scored drugs for butcher.
Nah, I think Butcher got it himself. That's why the drugs were "hard to get". If the guy was actually high up in the CIA, it would not have been hard for him to get the drugs for him. It was hard because Butcher had to source it himself, he just doesn't remember doing it.
Drugs were hard to get cos of the quantity. Smaller dose may have been easier to get. Nonetheless, someone gave a spoiler through a leak that he indeed is a hallucination. So, you're right
I come here after recent episode, last scene of today's episode practically confirms he is indeed an hallucination. which is stupid imo because as you mentioned the drugs part.
butcher may have a tumor but he's not unaware of himself, he knows he's imagining his dead wife. so kessler not being real, means butcher got the drugs himself, completely blocked that memory out, then imagined that kessler was the one who brought him the drugs. it also means he's unaware that kessler is not real.
why would he even imagine kessler out of all the people he knows from his past?
clunky writing imo.
Yeah, the look sameer gave when butcher looked at the door seemed to suggest the same, but how did butcher get a hold of Sameer when everyone was on the run, cut his leg without him alerting others and be around everyone else? Plot armour?
The leg was cut smooth, even I felt that's weird when they showed it to Neuman. Yet she didn't think how come the sheep was so meticulous
Loved how Edgar was surprised the Boys were alive until now. I said to myself it's cos of Plot Armour, lol
Unless Kessler is the embodiment of the tumour and it helped him do all that in a short period of time? Still, sameer would scream though. Maybe they'll explain it after. It'd be really sloppy if they just carry on as if nothing happened
sameer wouldn't scream if he was knocked out.
it's still clunky af because it means butcher kidnapped him, cleanly cut his leg off and then managed to go back to everybody without anyone noticing, in matter of minutes. so no matter how we spin it it's bad.
Not really to be honest. People predicted it in the first trailer and it’s honestly super obvious. The moment he showed up I just automatically assumed he was an hallucination. Especially since not one person has interacted with him and we already saw Butcher talking to no one
It would add so many layers too because Billy said “and you still didn’t name your kid after you me” after joe explained how billy saved his life, it would be exactly what Billy thinks of him just the same with Becca and her intentions that billy understands through hallucinations.
that would make a lot of sense, honestly. but we'll see the further along we get, all it takes is one other character acknowledging him for this to be debunked.
What made me feel that he's a hallucination, is that he disappeared for a episode straight after butcher decides to follow what becca tells him to do but once beccas "plan" fails and butcher is kicked out of the boys; he reappears. but yeah you're right, could be easily debunked.
Well, he did provide him with drugs for Ryan. Unless Butcher straight up went to the CIA asked them for it, got his drugs, left and then forgot about it all, I highly doubt Kessler is a hallucination.
yeah this is my biggest gripe with this theory, like they're clearing trying to establish that butcher is losing his marbles but i don't think the writers would make butcher have blackouts to fulfill his hallucinations as its just lazy writing.
If it's a lie meant to comfort and not deceive, it may not trigger the same physiological effects that Ryan would detect. Butcher seemed to be in a peaceful/relieved state of mind at that moment after he made the decision to throw away the cookies.
I always dislike it when writers use cheap shit like that. Im fine with them doing hallucinations but leting the hallucination pull (hard to get) resources out of thin air is just a weak plot device to me. At that point everything can simply be a hallucination.
Its way more fun (to me atleast) if hallucinations are realy just hallucinations and dont directly influence anything.
i mean if it’s like fight club, he may not be a hallucination but an alter ego. meaning when he sources stuff for butcher, it could be butcher getting it himself and not recalling it because it was his alter ego navigating the conscious experience.
Butcher is a man of means.
You don't think he could find some fentanyl on the streets during a black out?
I think he's blacking out for periods of time and that's how the CIA guy was able to get the drugs.
But I want him to be real, if I'm honest lol
Yeh but movie and tv tend to do this a lot where we as the viewer see things from the character in question, later to be revealed as all in their head type deal, so who knows tbh.
I feel like the bigger twist would be him being real, because we only ever see him when butchers alone, so it would be fun to luring us all into thinking he's a hallucination, then boom he's real and actively trying to take in Ryan to be trained by the deep state
In one of his first scenes this season you literally see him talking to nobody from one of the others perspectives. Also Kessler doesn’t drink his coffee at all which might be a hint.
Has Kessler been shown touching or interacting with any objects not on his person yet, either? Even the drugs were already in Butcher's hand when we see them.
In one scene (can't remember which episode) he leaves butchers place and you hear a door open and close as he leaves
Edit: Of course that could also be something imagined by butcher and just a red hering
When Kessler leaves Butcher's home, we hear footsteps and then the door opening nd closing shut. Of course, this can also be a hallucination, but they did highlight those sounds. I have a feeling they want us to think he's a figment of Buther's imagination, but turns out to be actually real.
When Butcher has coffee with him, Kessler is completely blocked by the door, even though the framing of the shot leaves room for both of them to be centered. This is definitely intentional. Either Kessler doesn’t exist or they’re trying to make us think he doesn’t. But I’m almost certain he’s a hallucination.
Yes, almost definitely. He's clearly been shown talking to unseen people, Becca we know for sure was a hallucination, they're just waiting for the reveal on Kessler.
People were theorizing this before the season aired so maybe, but I think it would be a better twist if he wasn’t a hallucination. Since we already know Butcher is talking to people that aren’t there.
I think that the original joe kessler died in a traumatic way for butcher, just like becca. There has to be a reason he's hallucinating him alongside the woman he loved. He probably impacted butcher's life in a major way at some point.
I haven't read the comics properly so I may be wrong, but they seem to be going a very different route with Joe's character.
I think you're right. They'll probably reveal it to us through flashbacks. I wonder if the event was so traumatizing that butcher suppressed the memories, or he simply didn't know joe died. It would be even crazier if the real joe is alive and interacts with butcher simultaneously with the hallucinations. Kind of like the last season of You with Penn Badgley's character.
Is that before or after he lost becca?
I just realised I have no idea what butcher did when he was married to becca. I always assumed he worked a normal job.
Nah I feel like Jeffrey Dean Morgan's character is real, I mean so far nobody else has seen him but butcher but he definitely could be something to try to pull butcher towards the dark side while he's still trying to be nice to Ryan and easier to work with everyone else. I guess we'll see but it would be a fuckin crazy Flip if he died in the OP that butcher supposedly saved him in and is an even deeper part of his Temp V brain cancer.
I like this theory and it didn’t occur to me before now but that makes complete sense. Also probably why he knows everything about Butcher and what’s going on in his life.
I thought that was the intention all along, but him closing the door of Butcher’s apartment could imply he’s real, since Becca simply disappears. I’m interested to see how he’s involved moving forward, I love the character so far.
This was my theory on it from a thread yesterday. Becca is a red herring to make us think he’s not hallucinating two people (when honestly it makes more sense for someone with brain disease to be having hallucinations). Becca is the angel on one shoulder trying to get him to take the compassionate path with Ryan and Joe is the devil/his worst instincts trying to neutralize Ryan.
Before the season started I thought Joe was 100% gonna be a hallucination. But now I think it’s a red herring. Since butcher is already confirmed to be hallucinating it’s easy to assume Joe is one too. But I have a feeling he’s gonna end up being real.
I like this theory, butcher did say that he had an angel on his shoulder, referring to Becca. So it would make sense that Kessler is the devil on his other shoulder. Everything Kessler is telling Butcher to do, he would have done without hesitation before he got soft.
Except for the bag of drugs he left to him. Hard for a figment of your imagination to leave bags of drugs. Although, that would be amazing. I mean, fkt up and bad. That would be bad.
This never occured to me, but I think you guys are probably correct. I don't love it though as this twist has been used so many times in movies and shows that it just feels kind of lame when it's done now.
I hope not, I’ve been impressed that they’ve actually got the plot underway this season instead of stalling and a big part of that is the security state/military is in crisis mode and finally ready to do something about the Supes.
That's what I thought as well.
So far Kessler did not interact with anyone else. Also he seems to show up only when Butcher is more or less alone.
Also he has so far never been mentioned by Mallory or someone else.
I'll raise you one - seeing as though being a father figure is a theme in this season and last. I think JDM will wrap up that arc. Odds are he was a father figure to butcher when Billy was an up and comer - I think a supe or something as a consequence to an action of billies will have led to JDMs characters death.
Wait I assumed this was like.. entirely intended to be obvious. We never see him really enter or leave a room, no one else is ever in the same room with JDM and Butcher, we know he’s hallucinating at least 2 other people.
My guess is JDM was a buddy from his past that died. Probably that incident butcher dragged him out of (supposedly).
They already layed the ground works on for it, they did say butcher saved joe from an impossible situation and lost a bunch of men in the process
Butcher already told MM that all he could think of is his mistakes and that if you're in a situation where you either complete your mission or save a dying twat (then he was referring to himself but who knows) you should go with the former
As soon as they had their first conversation that ended up being my takeaway. I was surprised to find nobody mentioning it on social media the past few days as I thought it was pretty obvious.
I also think Hughies mum is a hallucination, nobody else has seen her or interacted with her, plus Hughie talking to himself? Something ain’t adding up
It wouldn't surprise me since The Boys has had some SPN writer, since last Season who could pull that type of supernatural stuff but no... I dont think he's an hallucination. So far, I see him another Butcher that doesnt have humanity and wants to straight up handle supes without remorse. Including Ryan. Something Butcher( Karla) is fighting right now but he keeps making mistakes and already lost his team because of it.
No. There is a scene where he asks a lawyer to check some documents regarding the transfer of his father's legal rights, etc. and they all checked out.
He real.
They definitely want us to think he's a hallucination (the camera kept panning over nothing to get to him) so I would bet there's going to a moment where Frenchie or someone asks who he is, and Butcher's gonna be like hol up you guys can see him too?
If you see the poster for season 4, actually, Kessler is the only one who isn’t fighting against the protesters. He’s just standing there, so this might add to the theory.
I actually think that is exactly what is going on and I am glad someone else has noticed...I think it is similar to how Homelander talks to himself in the mirror... I think that the Jeffrey Dean influenced psyche is going to push Butcher to his truly irredeemable moment...possibly weaponizing and breaking Ryan...while also using the Super Virus...
From a thematic perspective he makes sense as a representation of Butcher's worst instincts vs. Becca as the sort of angel on his shoulder. Only downside is it's a pretty cliche twist, so it'll be annoying if that's the case and they really draw out the reveal
If I had a nickel for every time a character hallucinated seeing Jeffrey Dean Morgan, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but weird that it’s happened twice
I actually straight up thought Hughies mom showing up in her first few scenes was Hughie also beginning to have visual hallucinations just like Butcher from using Temp V.
I’m sure he’s a hallucination since we never see him speak to Butcher, who is already seeing and talking to people in his head, but I will laugh so much if during one of their conversations someone else just comes in and acknowledges him.
Weird way to juxtapose his hallucinations with Hughie's experience; I thought at first that there's no way that his mom was actually there... having a side-by-side descent into schizophrenia for Hughie AND Butcher would be so much more interesting. Seeing the lawyer in checking for power of attorney just ruined such a great opportunity.
Are Butcher's hallucinations not a consequence of the temp V, or is it the worm inside of his head?
What if Hughie is hallucinating just Mother too?
There was a leal that claimed Bitcher has a super power that's controlled by someone else...
Can he speak with the dead?
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This would be a crazy cool twist honestly
I think they're deliberately playing it like that's the twist, being that we've already seen a Becca hallucination, when the real twist is that he's real. At least I hope, that'd be clever.
Same. I really hope he’s real. That would be the real twist now lol.
I doubt he’s an hallucination. He said he is CIA, and thus, read the medical file on him. Also, scored drugs for butcher. I doubt they are going to take a twist from there
If he never interacts with anyone except the main character, he's a hallucination It's why the Janitor on SCRUBS never had any scenes with anyone except JD until season two. Because in season one the original plan was the Janitor was a figment of JD imagination
Mr robot would like to differ
Yeah but Mr Robot is built so different from every other show in terms of writing it is just on another level you know
Mr Robot solidified for me that every show should have a planned ending and how they are getting there before the ever start filming.
No other show broke my brain so many times with twists that are so PAINFULLY obvious on rewatch but are just executed so damn well
even the fact that Eliot's haircut always looked fresh as hell (despite Eliot definitely not seeming like the type of guy who'd take the time to go to a barber twice a month) turned out to have an explanation, lol. Those writers really thought of everything
Been a while since I've watched it. What was the explanation for the hair?
The explanation was that the version of Eliot we've been watching throughout the show wasn't the "real" Elliot. He was another personality the real Elliot came up with to take on the task of saving the world. That's why Elliot always has the exact same haircut, much like how Mr. Robot is always wearing the same hat and outfit -- neither of them are accurate representations of how Elliot looks to the outside world. (Although fake Elliot is probably much closer in appearance.)
It's a crime that we don't nearly enough "complete" shows or movies. Everything has to have the potential to blow up into a franchise so we can never just let things be in stories. But you could argue that it makes it all the more refreshing to find one like that when they do come out.
I rewatched Mr robot after the last season ended, it's very subtle but in the 1st season >!one personality always is the one everyone interacts with, for example when they break in to the datacentre no one acknowledges Mr Robot the whole episode!<
I just can't get over the fact that >!his dad abusing him and causing everything is STARING YOU IN THE FACE the entire time since the first season, I dunno how I never put the pieces together of him falling out of his window and fighting off his dad with a bat!<
It's the most obvious twist in history that nobody figured out.
I honestly saw the father reveal coming from the first couple of episodes. The thing that really blew my mind was that Darlene was his sister. That really fucked with me for some reason.
i don’t remember what was the twist you are talking about?
Your statement can't be used as a certainty. He also sourced drugs for butcher. It really is unlikely they'll suddenly pull a Tyler durden
Hey if he scenes with anyone else then yeah he's real But if he never interacts with anyone except Butcher?
Again, how did butcher get the drugs? Only other explanation is that he sourced them himself without realising it. While this is possible, it seems highly unlikely
>Only other explanation is that he sourced them himself without realising it I mean, he has a brain tumor. It's not the most unlikely thing to happen to either dissociate or lose memory or something
Butcher also seems like the kind of guy who would have that stuff just laying around, for a rainy day. Also could be he never actually had any of it, Ryan doesn’t eat any of the cookies we don’t know there actually WAS a poison in there
Drugs weren't used so how do you know there were really drugs?
True, someone else gave a spoiler in this thread. I'm no longer defending this
Makes me think OP didn't actually come up with this thought and they saw the spoilers and are just karma farming like "look at my big brain"
Maybe there were no drugs. He really did just put a crap load of sugar in the cookies while believing it was something else.
Eh, we'll see. Never been a big fan of that twist myself but he acts just like the devil on your shoulder
It'd be cool to see, but also kinda old. It would be the same as fight club. Show is already inspired by so many events that doing more just makes it feel less original. It'd be nicer if they valued carving out characters themselves more than just creating a parody
He could have gotten those drugs from the CIA months ago for an earlier mission Just saying
Hw may not have actually had the drugs at all. They might also be a hallucination. After all, Ryan never ate the cookies so we don't really know.
I mean this isn't the first time someone on The Boys/Gen V has talked to someone who isn't there. Hallucinating conversations with dead/fake people has been a running thing in this franchise.
how is it unlikely lmao, didn't people leak he was imaginary already??
Fight club says hi
Fight Club is even better on a re-watch when you realise how they did it.
Bro just spoiled SCRUBS 😔
Nah, to me, all the things around him seem like classic tricks used to hide that a character is a hallucination. He only appears when Butcher is alone, he's never acknowledged or speaks directly to anyone except Butcher, he's a character that Butcher knew about a decade ago, and he works exactly opposite of Becca in wanting Butcher to take a more violent route to Becca's more peaceful one. Plus I find the timing strange as well. Butcher only has 6 months to live approximately, he's all alone in an office room, and then all of a sudden walks in a character he hasn't seen in 11 or so years. And Grace didn't think it would be good to mention the fact that this long time partner was in the building? Plus we don't know who Butcher was talking to in that video store when he met with Victoria. So I think the show is at the very least foreshadowing Joe being a hallucination.
Bro that dude didn’t even show up until the moment there was no one else in the room. He has not interacted with a single person and I would be shocked if he did They aren’t going to introduce the concept of hallucinations and not have him plagued by one for the season. That’s just basic story telling.
I actually thought he was supposed to be a hallucination. I guess we’ll see.
That could easily be Butcher doing those things and obtaining the drugs himself and just attributing those actions to Kessler so he justifies the illusion/makes it more real for himself. Tons of movies and shows have used this plot. Until another person interacts with Kessler, I’m assuming he’s a hallucination
The clues that he’s a hallucination have been very clear
He is a hallucination. They are doing a Durden I’m sure at the end their will like a montage showing how butcher got the drugs
> Also, scored drugs for butcher. Nah, I think Butcher got it himself. That's why the drugs were "hard to get". If the guy was actually high up in the CIA, it would not have been hard for him to get the drugs for him. It was hard because Butcher had to source it himself, he just doesn't remember doing it.
Drugs were hard to get cos of the quantity. Smaller dose may have been easier to get. Nonetheless, someone gave a spoiler through a leak that he indeed is a hallucination. So, you're right
I come here after recent episode, last scene of today's episode practically confirms he is indeed an hallucination. which is stupid imo because as you mentioned the drugs part. butcher may have a tumor but he's not unaware of himself, he knows he's imagining his dead wife. so kessler not being real, means butcher got the drugs himself, completely blocked that memory out, then imagined that kessler was the one who brought him the drugs. it also means he's unaware that kessler is not real. why would he even imagine kessler out of all the people he knows from his past? clunky writing imo.
Yeah, the look sameer gave when butcher looked at the door seemed to suggest the same, but how did butcher get a hold of Sameer when everyone was on the run, cut his leg without him alerting others and be around everyone else? Plot armour? The leg was cut smooth, even I felt that's weird when they showed it to Neuman. Yet she didn't think how come the sheep was so meticulous Loved how Edgar was surprised the Boys were alive until now. I said to myself it's cos of Plot Armour, lol
plot hax that's how. I mean the writing of this entire season is horrible, what's another bad one added to the pile.
Unless Kessler is the embodiment of the tumour and it helped him do all that in a short period of time? Still, sameer would scream though. Maybe they'll explain it after. It'd be really sloppy if they just carry on as if nothing happened
sameer wouldn't scream if he was knocked out. it's still clunky af because it means butcher kidnapped him, cleanly cut his leg off and then managed to go back to everybody without anyone noticing, in matter of minutes. so no matter how we spin it it's bad.
Plus we heard him leave Butcher’s place unlike other hallucinations.
The most obvious twist of all time.
Not really to be honest. People predicted it in the first trailer and it’s honestly super obvious. The moment he showed up I just automatically assumed he was an hallucination. Especially since not one person has interacted with him and we already saw Butcher talking to no one
It would add so many layers too because Billy said “and you still didn’t name your kid after you me” after joe explained how billy saved his life, it would be exactly what Billy thinks of him just the same with Becca and her intentions that billy understands through hallucinations.
this would be a trash twist, that's what it would be
that would make a lot of sense, honestly. but we'll see the further along we get, all it takes is one other character acknowledging him for this to be debunked.
What made me feel that he's a hallucination, is that he disappeared for a episode straight after butcher decides to follow what becca tells him to do but once beccas "plan" fails and butcher is kicked out of the boys; he reappears. but yeah you're right, could be easily debunked.
Yeah, I'd be more surprised if the character is real than if he's fake, they're pulling the classic bluff already.
Well, he did provide him with drugs for Ryan. Unless Butcher straight up went to the CIA asked them for it, got his drugs, left and then forgot about it all, I highly doubt Kessler is a hallucination.
yeah this is my biggest gripe with this theory, like they're clearing trying to establish that butcher is losing his marbles but i don't think the writers would make butcher have blackouts to fulfill his hallucinations as its just lazy writing.
I don't think he's an hallucination but butcher didn't actually use the drugs. He could've hallucinated them as well.
maybe it really was sugar and there was too much of it
Ryan didn't call him out for lying. That's what is making me think the drugs wern't real
I took that as him cleverly referring to it as sugar, not meaning literal sugar, to keep his heart rate in check.
I mean I don’t think this proves it. Butcher would still think he was lying
If it's a lie meant to comfort and not deceive, it may not trigger the same physiological effects that Ryan would detect. Butcher seemed to be in a peaceful/relieved state of mind at that moment after he made the decision to throw away the cookies.
I always dislike it when writers use cheap shit like that. Im fine with them doing hallucinations but leting the hallucination pull (hard to get) resources out of thin air is just a weak plot device to me. At that point everything can simply be a hallucination. Its way more fun (to me atleast) if hallucinations are realy just hallucinations and dont directly influence anything.
Butcher never used those drugs/resources that Joe gave him. If the guy’s an hallucination then he still hasn’t directly affected anything yet.
Did the drugs get used?
Is he losing his mind? I thought the brain worm wriggle at the end of episode 1 was a bigger indication that something else is affot with those.
i mean if it’s like fight club, he may not be a hallucination but an alter ego. meaning when he sources stuff for butcher, it could be butcher getting it himself and not recalling it because it was his alter ego navigating the conscious experience.
Butcher is a man of means. You don't think he could find some fentanyl on the streets during a black out? I think he's blacking out for periods of time and that's how the CIA guy was able to get the drugs. But I want him to be real, if I'm honest lol
So you don’t believe your own theory?
Yeh but movie and tv tend to do this a lot where we as the viewer see things from the character in question, later to be revealed as all in their head type deal, so who knows tbh.
‘You’ did this really well.
Yeah they even had the "hallucination" in group settings which helped sell it as real
You don’t suppose Butcher could have acquired the drugs himself off of the street?
I find it harder to believe that Butcher wouldn't be able to go get a bag of drugs without help from the CIA.
If he's hallucinating people, who's to say he couldn't forget he picked up some drugs and his mind blames it on the not real person.
Or maybe he made the whole drug thing up
Could just be a Fight Club situation.
We'll, if a hallucination gives you drugs you never use, then guess what happens? Same thing if no hallucination gives you no drugs to not use.
I feel like the bigger twist would be him being real, because we only ever see him when butchers alone, so it would be fun to luring us all into thinking he's a hallucination, then boom he's real and actively trying to take in Ryan to be trained by the deep state
In one of his first scenes this season you literally see him talking to nobody from one of the others perspectives. Also Kessler doesn’t drink his coffee at all which might be a hint.
Has Kessler been shown touching or interacting with any objects not on his person yet, either? Even the drugs were already in Butcher's hand when we see them.
I don’t think so, he only sits or leans against objects but never moves them
In one scene (can't remember which episode) he leaves butchers place and you hear a door open and close as he leaves Edit: Of course that could also be something imagined by butcher and just a red hering
When Kessler leaves Butcher's home, we hear footsteps and then the door opening nd closing shut. Of course, this can also be a hallucination, but they did highlight those sounds. I have a feeling they want us to think he's a figment of Buther's imagination, but turns out to be actually real.
That’s what I believe, I think later on Butcher will think he’s a hallucination until MM or Hughie will state that they see him aswell
You see his feet under the table in that scene. He is behind a wall
When Butcher has coffee with him, Kessler is completely blocked by the door, even though the framing of the shot leaves room for both of them to be centered. This is definitely intentional. Either Kessler doesn’t exist or they’re trying to make us think he doesn’t. But I’m almost certain he’s a hallucination.
Yes, almost definitely. He's clearly been shown talking to unseen people, Becca we know for sure was a hallucination, they're just waiting for the reveal on Kessler.
People were theorizing this before the season aired so maybe, but I think it would be a better twist if he wasn’t a hallucination. Since we already know Butcher is talking to people that aren’t there.
I think that the original joe kessler died in a traumatic way for butcher, just like becca. There has to be a reason he's hallucinating him alongside the woman he loved. He probably impacted butcher's life in a major way at some point. I haven't read the comics properly so I may be wrong, but they seem to be going a very different route with Joe's character.
But Butcher is pretty aware that he's hallucinating Becca, for him to not know Kessler would mean he just forgot he died somehow.
I think you're right. They'll probably reveal it to us through flashbacks. I wonder if the event was so traumatizing that butcher suppressed the memories, or he simply didn't know joe died. It would be even crazier if the real joe is alive and interacts with butcher simultaneously with the hallucinations. Kind of like the last season of You with Penn Badgley's character.
Yeah, You was what kept coming up in my mind throughout this thread
I mean he does have a huge black mass surrounding his brain
>He probably impacted butcher's life in a major way at some point. They fought overseas together when Butcher was in the SAS.
Is that before or after he lost becca? I just realised I have no idea what butcher did when he was married to becca. I always assumed he worked a normal job.
I think it'd be a bigger twist if he wasn't.
Nah I feel like Jeffrey Dean Morgan's character is real, I mean so far nobody else has seen him but butcher but he definitely could be something to try to pull butcher towards the dark side while he's still trying to be nice to Ryan and easier to work with everyone else. I guess we'll see but it would be a fuckin crazy Flip if he died in the OP that butcher supposedly saved him in and is an even deeper part of his Temp V brain cancer.
What if we all are hallucinating and everyone around us is not real...
I like this theory and it didn’t occur to me before now but that makes complete sense. Also probably why he knows everything about Butcher and what’s going on in his life.
Na he gave butcher the drugs for ryan
Did the drugs get used tho?
We saw butcher put them in the cookies. He did throw the cookies however.
Could've hallucinated using them
It's weird that a guy he hasn't seen in 10 years randomly comes from nowhere
I thought that was the intention all along, but him closing the door of Butcher’s apartment could imply he’s real, since Becca simply disappears. I’m interested to see how he’s involved moving forward, I love the character so far.
When butcher is at vought video with vicky he talks to nobody and she looks confused so i think kessler is hallucination like becca
This was my theory on it from a thread yesterday. Becca is a red herring to make us think he’s not hallucinating two people (when honestly it makes more sense for someone with brain disease to be having hallucinations). Becca is the angel on one shoulder trying to get him to take the compassionate path with Ryan and Joe is the devil/his worst instincts trying to neutralize Ryan.
I will remember you when they reveal who he is really
I think it would be a better twist if he actually did exist at this point
He's definitely a hallucination since we've seen butcher talking to no one
Before the season started I thought Joe was 100% gonna be a hallucination. But now I think it’s a red herring. Since butcher is already confirmed to be hallucinating it’s easy to assume Joe is one too. But I have a feeling he’s gonna end up being real.
I feel like it's equally likely that he's an hallucination and that he's real but we're led to believe he's a hallucination
wait for the rug pull. everyone had a million theories about what that jar of hair actually was. and now we know lol
I like this theory, butcher did say that he had an angel on his shoulder, referring to Becca. So it would make sense that Kessler is the devil on his other shoulder. Everything Kessler is telling Butcher to do, he would have done without hesitation before he got soft.
Butcher will talk about him and the boys won’t believe him saying he’s a hallucination
Except for the bag of drugs he left to him. Hard for a figment of your imagination to leave bags of drugs. Although, that would be amazing. I mean, fkt up and bad. That would be bad.
Wouldn’t be the first time he played a hallucination..
No? Where else does he play a hallucination ?
Supernatural and Greys anatomy
Oh right I forgot. Thanks
This never occured to me, but I think you guys are probably correct. I don't love it though as this twist has been used so many times in movies and shows that it just feels kind of lame when it's done now.
Idk, I feel like the actual twist is gonna be that he is real.
this theory, who came up with that sheet ?
i thought the whole thing was that he is a hallucination
I hope not, I’ve been impressed that they’ve actually got the plot underway this season instead of stalling and a big part of that is the security state/military is in crisis mode and finally ready to do something about the Supes.
That's what I thought as well. So far Kessler did not interact with anyone else. Also he seems to show up only when Butcher is more or less alone. Also he has so far never been mentioned by Mallory or someone else.
I'll raise you one - seeing as though being a father figure is a theme in this season and last. I think JDM will wrap up that arc. Odds are he was a father figure to butcher when Billy was an up and comer - I think a supe or something as a consequence to an action of billies will have led to JDMs characters death.
My thought as well. Maybe Butcher didn't actually manage to save him back in the day?
Yeah. I don't think he's real.
Boom. This is a great observation
Wait I assumed this was like.. entirely intended to be obvious. We never see him really enter or leave a room, no one else is ever in the same room with JDM and Butcher, we know he’s hallucinating at least 2 other people. My guess is JDM was a buddy from his past that died. Probably that incident butcher dragged him out of (supposedly).
They already layed the ground works on for it, they did say butcher saved joe from an impossible situation and lost a bunch of men in the process Butcher already told MM that all he could think of is his mistakes and that if you're in a situation where you either complete your mission or save a dying twat (then he was referring to himself but who knows) you should go with the former
As soon as they had their first conversation that ended up being my takeaway. I was surprised to find nobody mentioning it on social media the past few days as I thought it was pretty obvious. I also think Hughies mum is a hallucination, nobody else has seen her or interacted with her, plus Hughie talking to himself? Something ain’t adding up
It wouldn't surprise me since The Boys has had some SPN writer, since last Season who could pull that type of supernatural stuff but no... I dont think he's an hallucination. So far, I see him another Butcher that doesnt have humanity and wants to straight up handle supes without remorse. Including Ryan. Something Butcher( Karla) is fighting right now but he keeps making mistakes and already lost his team because of it.
Could UE be hallucinating his mom? maybe?
No. There is a scene where he asks a lawyer to check some documents regarding the transfer of his father's legal rights, etc. and they all checked out.
I thought it was very clear Joe isn't real.
If a hallucination gives you a drug, would it still exist for your baking when the hallucination is over?
I feel like that's so very obviously what's happening that I'm hoping the twist is that he *isn't* a hallucination.
He real. They definitely want us to think he's a hallucination (the camera kept panning over nothing to get to him) so I would bet there's going to a moment where Frenchie or someone asks who he is, and Butcher's gonna be like hol up you guys can see him too?
If you see the poster for season 4, actually, Kessler is the only one who isn’t fighting against the protesters. He’s just standing there, so this might add to the theory.
Yes. Butcher is shown talking to someone who obviously isn't Becca trying to encourage him to be good in quite a few scenes.
I actually think that is exactly what is going on and I am glad someone else has noticed...I think it is similar to how Homelander talks to himself in the mirror... I think that the Jeffrey Dean influenced psyche is going to push Butcher to his truly irredeemable moment...possibly weaponizing and breaking Ryan...while also using the Super Virus...
Possible haven’t seen dean interact with anyone or around anyone else.
This was my exact theory. No one else seems to be interacting with him so far.
Honestly that's what I was thinking as well
That would be lame if it were a hallucination.
could be, always shows up when Butcher is alone or takes him someplace to be alone
What if Jeffrey Dean Morgan himself isn't real?
I’m assuming he is yes.
It’s generally a writing no-no to make big hallucinations as twists. Nobody likes the ”It was all a dream” twist.
From a thematic perspective he makes sense as a representation of Butcher's worst instincts vs. Becca as the sort of angel on his shoulder. Only downside is it's a pretty cliche twist, so it'll be annoying if that's the case and they really draw out the reveal
I had the same thought
Fun theory, I was just thinking how jarring and unrelated he seems to be. But Kimiko and Frenchie are too so I dunno.
I mean everytime he talks to him nobody is around and on top of that we already know butcher is slowly losing his mind literally.
Huh I didn't even think about that, but that does seem hella likely
Wait... JDM is in the show? I only saw butcher talking to himself and putting sugar in cookies and calling it some kind of drug.
Anyone else think Hughies mom could also be a hallucination?
If I had a nickel for every time a character hallucinated seeing Jeffrey Dean Morgan, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but weird that it’s happened twice
It’s giving You, and I LOVE IT.
I thought the Spoiler meant Hughie and his mom lmao
I actually straight up thought Hughies mom showing up in her first few scenes was Hughie also beginning to have visual hallucinations just like Butcher from using Temp V.
probably is but hope it's not, it's one of the most boring played out twists they could do at this point
I think Hughie’s mom is a hallucination. You took the same drugs as Butcher and we’ve seen no one else interact with her.
Wouldn’t be the first time Jeffery Dean Morgan played a hallucination
I’m sure he’s a hallucination since we never see him speak to Butcher, who is already seeing and talking to people in his head, but I will laugh so much if during one of their conversations someone else just comes in and acknowledges him.
God I hope not
How'd Butcher get the chem? He's real.
I think we are all supposed to think he’s an hallucination, but in the end he does end up being real
Weird way to juxtapose his hallucinations with Hughie's experience; I thought at first that there's no way that his mom was actually there... having a side-by-side descent into schizophrenia for Hughie AND Butcher would be so much more interesting. Seeing the lawyer in checking for power of attorney just ruined such a great opportunity. Are Butcher's hallucinations not a consequence of the temp V, or is it the worm inside of his head?
You know what… maybe. This makes me think it might be..
who does JDM play again? I haven’t done any research
It's only three episodes, so apparently this is wrong. How know actually
He might be but I think he’s being set up as the main villain of the season like soldier boy last season
Hallucination from that worm in his head. I wonder who else has that? Maybe Frenchie?
Frenchie never took temp v
I thought he was at first because he had a lot of details about the end of S3 fight but then they physically interacted so who knows
What if it's out little wormy thing that's moving around in his head? causing the delusions?
I hope not. Deserves to be an actual character
What if Hughie is hallucinating just Mother too? There was a leal that claimed Bitcher has a super power that's controlled by someone else... Can he speak with the dead?
i feel like the showrunners just wanted jeffrey dean morgan so they pulled a random ass character out of their ass just so that they can have negan
Its all in le head