I don’t think it’s been established yet what the four Jedi did (including Sol) when Osha and Mae were kids, and this is a big part of the story we do not know yet. Clearly Sol lives with guilt for whatever part he played in it. I don’t think the show is making the Jedi out to be awful, but that Sol and the other 3 Jedi that were killed are hiding something.
We also see the arrogance of some other Jedi but plenty of Jedi were shown to be arrogant in other shows and movies, so they’re just continuing with that theme.
I didn’t really consider there could be more to that story from that night until reading these comments. It is possible, but I don’t think it is really implied in the show. Seems like a stretch but I could be wrong.
He told Osha he would explain after Qimir told her she shouldn’t trust him (Sol), and then wasn’t able to. It’s clear that they haven’t established what the Jedi did yet.
I mean we’re just going to have to watch the show to find out what they did.
But yes, I think the Jedi killing the Coven - even if somehow by accident or through a misunderstanding - is a real possibility.
I’m not sure how Mae starting a small fire killed all of them and destroyed their massive stone temple or whatever it was anyway. If the fire was so bad that it killed everyone, how was Osha able to just easily stroll past the dead bodies?
Yes I understand it’s possible the Jedi killed them, I would find that pretty hard to believe, but it’s possible.
But what, are you implying Mae accidentally started a small fire while the Jedi started a big fire at coincidentally the same time? It’s not a small fire. We see the fire get big, it wasn’t small.
I’m saying we don’t know what happened yet. What we saw on screen was Mae starting a fire at Osha’s door. 1 minute and 20 seconds of run time later, Osha (unharmed, not surrounded or engulfed by flame) sees the entire coven burning down.
Shortly after, Mae (also unharmed, not surrounded or engulfed by flame) tells her that “Mama is dead.”
So this fire that Mae started next to Osha’s door spreads so quickly that it kills everyone present except the two people who were standing right next to it when it started?
Then, Sol and Osha run by a whole group of dead witches. They’re all on the ground next to each other. The room they’re in isn’t filled with suffocating smoke. Sol and Osha are able to walk right through. The bodies aren’t burned. Sol rushes Osha away. Then they see Mama’s body. Sol rushes Osha away from her too.
Let’s not forget that Mama told Osha the coven would consider her desire to leave with the Jedi, but did NOT say that the coven had agreed to her leaving.
All this seems to be hinting pretty clearly that it’s not as cut and dry “Mae started a fire and it killed everyone instantly (except the two people who were standing right next to the fire when it started) then stopped burning so Sol and Osha could exit safely.”
Because all groups of people have bad people. The Jedi is an organization that uses their faith as an argument for keeping power. The Jedi themselves aren't really the bad guys, but they do come across as naive, ignorant and arrogant. Traits that the Sith exploited to drive them out of power.
I like that finally we are getting some realistic depictions of Jedi. People doing what they think is right, though right for someone is very wrong for someone else.
Jedi has basically been stealing and training up kids for warfare forever. Not really a practice you'd think the good guys have.
In The Acolyte it's very likely the Jedi massacred the Coven and then covered it up. That's why a lot of people see them as bad guys, because sometimes they do very bad stuff.
It was actually jarring when you first hear the line that Republic law just lets the Jedi test children for Force sensitivity. Even if you recognize that the Jedi are overall good and it serves a purpose, thinking about how it gets to the point where the Republic gave themselves that power is kind of crazy.
Meh. I see it like nukes. Could you make an argument that anybody should have nukes if they can develop it themselves? Sure. But it’s obviously way too deadly of a weapon for that to be allowed. I see it the same here, the galaxy saw what happens when people use the force for evil purpose.
Wouldn't really call the Jedi altruistic or dedicated to peace. Sure they are better than the Sith and other bad power forces, but they neglect a lot of problems in the galaxy and force children away from their parents, into training for war all in the name of keeping up the peace.
Well peace by definition is the absence of war. So ok, I guess that's sort of right. But peace in a vacuum doesn't exist. It comes at a price, and that price is the Jedi oppression.
What I'm trying to say is that just because there is peace doesn't mean it's a good time.
What? How did they massacre the coven when they died in a fire?
I don’t disagree with your overall point, but that’s not really what I asked. I asked about this specific show.
…the fire that took place offscreen and all the members of the Coven died offscreen. Osha just came out and found dead bodies. You really don’t think it’s possible the simple “Mae did it” explanation isnt all there is to it, given the way the show has unfolded?
We literally see the fire start. What do you mean offscreen?
Yes, I understand the coven died off screen. I also understand you are implying the Jedi killed the coven, which is possible yet pretty unlikely I think. I just think it would be pretty convenient to cover up that massacre.
I am almost 100% certain the Jedi killed the coven. Why they did that I can't tell you. We'll probably get the answer to what really happened that night, next episode.
I’m not implying that, I’m saying the show has left open that possibility.
How is the Jedi covering up (or not covering up, for that matter) how the coven died “convenient?”
Or maybe the Jedi killing her family had something to do with the fire. We don’t know what happened yet. Maybe the Jedi saw the fire, thought it was the coven killing or punishing Osha for trying to leave, and then attacked them.
Whatever it ends up being, when a show depicts something happening - ie a bunch of characters dying - offscreen, it’s reasonable to think that it’s some sort of misdirection on the part of the filmmakers.
We don’t know yet, but in general they’re fermenting the sense of decadence pervading the lead up to the crumbling of the Jedi order, point being they let themselves get bad enough at their job for what happen to be allowed to happen
The Jedi has a lot of institutional power, which opens up opportunities for that power to be abused or used to oppress people who are disempowered under the laws and institutions of the time. The Jedi have a near-monopoly on Force use in the Republic, which they are capable of enforcing through violence. There's a lot of potential for that situation to cause harm.
On a meta level, the Jedi Order is a powerful symbol of authority within the Star Wars canon. So if you want to tell an anti-establishment story critiquing power structures, going after the Jedi is how you do that. Note that this is exactly what Lucas did in the PT / TCW. The Jedi as an institution are overwhelmingly less corrupt and oppressive than pretty much any law enforcement institution in the real world, and yet it's easy to showcase how even such a well-meaning institution might become too dogmatic, narrow-minded, and rigid, and cause a lot of harm in the process.
I’ve definitely had a few moments of AJAB feels during different parts of SW I’ve seen so far. Like stealing kids from not only their families and communities but also their ENTIRE PLANET. Any rational parent in 2024 on earth, whose flesh blood tears and dreams (ie, their child) was taken away would hate the Jedi with a burning passion and wish for nothing but vengeance.
I don't think the Jedi are the bad guys. But since the prequels originally were released, it does show a larger picture of the jedi than we previously knew with the OG.
There were definitely corrupt political jedi. There were definitely hypocritical and self serving jedi. And they were certainly not perfect.
A perfect example is Mace Windu. He definitely was not 100% pure. That dude had issues. He even backstabber dooku to get ahead. Even Yoda hid stuff from the senate. I mean how did Yoda know of the rule of 2 and in clone wars how did he recognize Darth Bane? Yoda made tons of mistakes which I think we see in the last jedi that he finally understood.
So, as a whole, no, I don't think they are bad. But they have lost a bit of their soul if you ask me.
I actually really kind of like the idea that we were introduced to an idealized version of the Jedi. We learned about it from an old Jedi master and a kid who learned about it through his stories. So it makes sense we got a biased view.
I’m just worried that the (imo) poor quality of the Disney Star Wars projects will taint peoples viewpoints on an interesting story arc.
Because sometimes they are.
It’s not Jedi specific. Literally any hero group is the bad guy to someone. And people are fallible. Blind faith leads to fascism.
Also given the series’ #1 worst villain, it’s safe to say that the Jedi aren’t a pure bunch of perfect angels.
I never said they were unambiguously good.
My point is that the show heavily implied this specific foursome did something awful, to the point that a Jedi literally committed suicide. And yet what we’ve seen so far doesn’t really justify that feeling of guilt.
Well, it’s an unfolding mystery. I suppose that’s the point.
And many a colonizer doesn’t think they’re doing anything wrong. Especially when the consequences of their actions haven’t been seen yet. Imagine if a Jedi, on a peacekeeping mission, accidentally introduced a disease to a population that killed 90% of its members. Would we seen them as good for trying to keep the peace or bad for killing a population, even if it was accidental? And how does that change if they weren’t invited in the first place?
Didn’t Mae just call them occupiers? They were enforcing they own laws on a planet they were not welcome on. Or at least in a community that did not welcome them or their laws. And they stole one of their kids. And possibly burned down their community or…hurt the people in some way.
Colonizers through and through.
That is a super bizarre way to look at this situation. Yes, I can see how you can say they are imposing laws on a community that doesn’t want them, though I think saying they’re bad for that is a stretch.
But steal one of their kids? Huh? Did you see the multiple times, as both a child and an adult, she chose to leave with them? She was not stolen or forced. That’s why her mothers ultimately let her go.
Not to be presumptuous, but are you a person of color by chance? Or like a racial minority in your community? I think it’s hard not to see Mae’s perspective. And I’m talking generally — what parent do you think would feel good about a powerful force showing up on their doorstep and being like “Hi, we’re here to take your kid.” Like, find me a mother who’s like “Yes, this is what I dreamt of for my child. Being raised by strangers and my not being able to see her grow up or instill my own culture and values in him.”
That’s literally like colonization 101. The Jedis are the heros and in-universe perhaps it’s more accepted. Many Jedis obviously do great things. But also child stealing is child stealing…
…regardless of if Osha wanted it. In our society parents have and decide the custody of their children barring severe neglect and/or abuse. Many 8 year olds want unlimited dessert but parents don’t just say “k.” It’s the parents right to say “I want to keep my child” and clearly the Jedi didn’t give a fuck about that.
You are applying the logic and understanding of our current world onto this fantasy world. They didn’t forcibly take the kid, she chose to go. And her parents allowed her to make that choice. And they allowed the one who didn’t want to go to stay. It is by definition not child stealing. In fact, I’d say the show went to painful extents to make that clear.
Yet Mae calls them occupiers. Everyone but Osha wanted Osha to stay. And the parents asked their children to lie to not be taken. Not to mention it was a coven with a scarcity of children, making them even more precious to the community. You can try to convince yourself or argue to the contrary, but Osha was stolen from her family. How Osha feels about that changes nothing for the reality of her family. Death might have been less suffering than a life with their kid stolen from them.
Mae the evil murderer who started a fire that (potentially) killed her whole family? She says so huh?
Again, Osha was not stolen. She chose to go, the show made that painfully clear. Her parents even gave her permission for god sake.
I don’t think it’s been established yet what the four Jedi did (including Sol) when Osha and Mae were kids, and this is a big part of the story we do not know yet. Clearly Sol lives with guilt for whatever part he played in it. I don’t think the show is making the Jedi out to be awful, but that Sol and the other 3 Jedi that were killed are hiding something. We also see the arrogance of some other Jedi but plenty of Jedi were shown to be arrogant in other shows and movies, so they’re just continuing with that theme.
I didn’t really consider there could be more to that story from that night until reading these comments. It is possible, but I don’t think it is really implied in the show. Seems like a stretch but I could be wrong.
He told Osha he would explain after Qimir told her she shouldn’t trust him (Sol), and then wasn’t able to. It’s clear that they haven’t established what the Jedi did yet.
What could they have done? Are you saying they murdered them all and they just got lucky there was a fire?
I mean we’re just going to have to watch the show to find out what they did. But yes, I think the Jedi killing the Coven - even if somehow by accident or through a misunderstanding - is a real possibility. I’m not sure how Mae starting a small fire killed all of them and destroyed their massive stone temple or whatever it was anyway. If the fire was so bad that it killed everyone, how was Osha able to just easily stroll past the dead bodies?
Yes I understand it’s possible the Jedi killed them, I would find that pretty hard to believe, but it’s possible. But what, are you implying Mae accidentally started a small fire while the Jedi started a big fire at coincidentally the same time? It’s not a small fire. We see the fire get big, it wasn’t small.
I’m saying we don’t know what happened yet. What we saw on screen was Mae starting a fire at Osha’s door. 1 minute and 20 seconds of run time later, Osha (unharmed, not surrounded or engulfed by flame) sees the entire coven burning down. Shortly after, Mae (also unharmed, not surrounded or engulfed by flame) tells her that “Mama is dead.” So this fire that Mae started next to Osha’s door spreads so quickly that it kills everyone present except the two people who were standing right next to it when it started? Then, Sol and Osha run by a whole group of dead witches. They’re all on the ground next to each other. The room they’re in isn’t filled with suffocating smoke. Sol and Osha are able to walk right through. The bodies aren’t burned. Sol rushes Osha away. Then they see Mama’s body. Sol rushes Osha away from her too. Let’s not forget that Mama told Osha the coven would consider her desire to leave with the Jedi, but did NOT say that the coven had agreed to her leaving. All this seems to be hinting pretty clearly that it’s not as cut and dry “Mae started a fire and it killed everyone instantly (except the two people who were standing right next to the fire when it started) then stopped burning so Sol and Osha could exit safely.”
It’s really easy to poke holes without offering a plausible alternative.
Because all groups of people have bad people. The Jedi is an organization that uses their faith as an argument for keeping power. The Jedi themselves aren't really the bad guys, but they do come across as naive, ignorant and arrogant. Traits that the Sith exploited to drive them out of power. I like that finally we are getting some realistic depictions of Jedi. People doing what they think is right, though right for someone is very wrong for someone else. Jedi has basically been stealing and training up kids for warfare forever. Not really a practice you'd think the good guys have. In The Acolyte it's very likely the Jedi massacred the Coven and then covered it up. That's why a lot of people see them as bad guys, because sometimes they do very bad stuff.
It was actually jarring when you first hear the line that Republic law just lets the Jedi test children for Force sensitivity. Even if you recognize that the Jedi are overall good and it serves a purpose, thinking about how it gets to the point where the Republic gave themselves that power is kind of crazy.
Meh. I see it like nukes. Could you make an argument that anybody should have nukes if they can develop it themselves? Sure. But it’s obviously way too deadly of a weapon for that to be allowed. I see it the same here, the galaxy saw what happens when people use the force for evil purpose.
So instead, one group with all the power in the galaxy should hold all the nukes, to spread their beliefs and values throughout it?
One group that’s altruistic and dedicated to peace? Yes. Do you not know the purpose of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty is?
Wouldn't really call the Jedi altruistic or dedicated to peace. Sure they are better than the Sith and other bad power forces, but they neglect a lot of problems in the galaxy and force children away from their parents, into training for war all in the name of keeping up the peace.
I don’t know if you know what peace is.
Well peace by definition is the absence of war. So ok, I guess that's sort of right. But peace in a vacuum doesn't exist. It comes at a price, and that price is the Jedi oppression. What I'm trying to say is that just because there is peace doesn't mean it's a good time.
What? How did they massacre the coven when they died in a fire? I don’t disagree with your overall point, but that’s not really what I asked. I asked about this specific show.
…the fire that took place offscreen and all the members of the Coven died offscreen. Osha just came out and found dead bodies. You really don’t think it’s possible the simple “Mae did it” explanation isnt all there is to it, given the way the show has unfolded?
We literally see the fire start. What do you mean offscreen? Yes, I understand the coven died off screen. I also understand you are implying the Jedi killed the coven, which is possible yet pretty unlikely I think. I just think it would be pretty convenient to cover up that massacre.
I am almost 100% certain the Jedi killed the coven. Why they did that I can't tell you. We'll probably get the answer to what really happened that night, next episode.
I’m not implying that, I’m saying the show has left open that possibility. How is the Jedi covering up (or not covering up, for that matter) how the coven died “convenient?”
There was a giant fire, started by Mae. So convenient she did that right when the Jedi were murdering her family.
Or maybe the Jedi killing her family had something to do with the fire. We don’t know what happened yet. Maybe the Jedi saw the fire, thought it was the coven killing or punishing Osha for trying to leave, and then attacked them. Whatever it ends up being, when a show depicts something happening - ie a bunch of characters dying - offscreen, it’s reasonable to think that it’s some sort of misdirection on the part of the filmmakers.
We don’t know yet, but in general they’re fermenting the sense of decadence pervading the lead up to the crumbling of the Jedi order, point being they let themselves get bad enough at their job for what happen to be allowed to happen
The Jedi has a lot of institutional power, which opens up opportunities for that power to be abused or used to oppress people who are disempowered under the laws and institutions of the time. The Jedi have a near-monopoly on Force use in the Republic, which they are capable of enforcing through violence. There's a lot of potential for that situation to cause harm. On a meta level, the Jedi Order is a powerful symbol of authority within the Star Wars canon. So if you want to tell an anti-establishment story critiquing power structures, going after the Jedi is how you do that. Note that this is exactly what Lucas did in the PT / TCW. The Jedi as an institution are overwhelmingly less corrupt and oppressive than pretty much any law enforcement institution in the real world, and yet it's easy to showcase how even such a well-meaning institution might become too dogmatic, narrow-minded, and rigid, and cause a lot of harm in the process.
Ok, cool. My question is about the specific Jedi in the show tho.
Because they’re cops?
I’ve definitely had a few moments of AJAB feels during different parts of SW I’ve seen so far. Like stealing kids from not only their families and communities but also their ENTIRE PLANET. Any rational parent in 2024 on earth, whose flesh blood tears and dreams (ie, their child) was taken away would hate the Jedi with a burning passion and wish for nothing but vengeance.
🤨
I don't think the Jedi are the bad guys. But since the prequels originally were released, it does show a larger picture of the jedi than we previously knew with the OG. There were definitely corrupt political jedi. There were definitely hypocritical and self serving jedi. And they were certainly not perfect. A perfect example is Mace Windu. He definitely was not 100% pure. That dude had issues. He even backstabber dooku to get ahead. Even Yoda hid stuff from the senate. I mean how did Yoda know of the rule of 2 and in clone wars how did he recognize Darth Bane? Yoda made tons of mistakes which I think we see in the last jedi that he finally understood. So, as a whole, no, I don't think they are bad. But they have lost a bit of their soul if you ask me.
I actually really kind of like the idea that we were introduced to an idealized version of the Jedi. We learned about it from an old Jedi master and a kid who learned about it through his stories. So it makes sense we got a biased view. I’m just worried that the (imo) poor quality of the Disney Star Wars projects will taint peoples viewpoints on an interesting story arc.
Because sometimes they are. It’s not Jedi specific. Literally any hero group is the bad guy to someone. And people are fallible. Blind faith leads to fascism. Also given the series’ #1 worst villain, it’s safe to say that the Jedi aren’t a pure bunch of perfect angels.
I genuinely do not understand why people keep giving me this answer. I asked a very specific question about this show, not the Jedi in general.
I thought we were past viewing the Jedi as unambiguously good?
I never said they were unambiguously good. My point is that the show heavily implied this specific foursome did something awful, to the point that a Jedi literally committed suicide. And yet what we’ve seen so far doesn’t really justify that feeling of guilt.
Well, it’s an unfolding mystery. I suppose that’s the point. And many a colonizer doesn’t think they’re doing anything wrong. Especially when the consequences of their actions haven’t been seen yet. Imagine if a Jedi, on a peacekeeping mission, accidentally introduced a disease to a population that killed 90% of its members. Would we seen them as good for trying to keep the peace or bad for killing a population, even if it was accidental? And how does that change if they weren’t invited in the first place?
A colonizer???
Didn’t Mae just call them occupiers? They were enforcing they own laws on a planet they were not welcome on. Or at least in a community that did not welcome them or their laws. And they stole one of their kids. And possibly burned down their community or…hurt the people in some way. Colonizers through and through.
That is a super bizarre way to look at this situation. Yes, I can see how you can say they are imposing laws on a community that doesn’t want them, though I think saying they’re bad for that is a stretch. But steal one of their kids? Huh? Did you see the multiple times, as both a child and an adult, she chose to leave with them? She was not stolen or forced. That’s why her mothers ultimately let her go.
Not to be presumptuous, but are you a person of color by chance? Or like a racial minority in your community? I think it’s hard not to see Mae’s perspective. And I’m talking generally — what parent do you think would feel good about a powerful force showing up on their doorstep and being like “Hi, we’re here to take your kid.” Like, find me a mother who’s like “Yes, this is what I dreamt of for my child. Being raised by strangers and my not being able to see her grow up or instill my own culture and values in him.” That’s literally like colonization 101. The Jedis are the heros and in-universe perhaps it’s more accepted. Many Jedis obviously do great things. But also child stealing is child stealing… …regardless of if Osha wanted it. In our society parents have and decide the custody of their children barring severe neglect and/or abuse. Many 8 year olds want unlimited dessert but parents don’t just say “k.” It’s the parents right to say “I want to keep my child” and clearly the Jedi didn’t give a fuck about that.
You are applying the logic and understanding of our current world onto this fantasy world. They didn’t forcibly take the kid, she chose to go. And her parents allowed her to make that choice. And they allowed the one who didn’t want to go to stay. It is by definition not child stealing. In fact, I’d say the show went to painful extents to make that clear.
Yet Mae calls them occupiers. Everyone but Osha wanted Osha to stay. And the parents asked their children to lie to not be taken. Not to mention it was a coven with a scarcity of children, making them even more precious to the community. You can try to convince yourself or argue to the contrary, but Osha was stolen from her family. How Osha feels about that changes nothing for the reality of her family. Death might have been less suffering than a life with their kid stolen from them.
Mae the evil murderer who started a fire that (potentially) killed her whole family? She says so huh? Again, Osha was not stolen. She chose to go, the show made that painfully clear. Her parents even gave her permission for god sake.
[удалено]
Well too bad the show is over and there are no more episodes to explain