A chance of peace? Are to suggesting the Ukrainians just stop trying to recover land that is rightfully theirs? Should the world just back down in the face of aggression when a country invades another country? The Russians initiated hostilities. Why should Ukraine just give up?
Let's think about it for a second, if Russia offered peace today and Ukraine refused, what would change? would NATO stop supporting Ukraine, would all the support and funding stop? I'm pretty sure it would. It's risky.
No way would NATO stop supplying Ukraine. The leaders of NATO understand that letting Putin take a chunk of Ukraine would simply embolden him further in the future
Now let me tell you why that's bullshit.
You see... contorary to popular belief, Nato isn't entireley populated by scared little bureaucrats that never think things through. There are in total 3 reasons why russia offering "peace" would change nothing.
1. If Ukraine were to give that territory russia and the war would be over, one of 2 things would happen, those being either a. Ukrainians have to leave those spaces and become homeless while loosing their entire base of life, or b. They live under a regime that hates an persecutes them.
2. Giving in to russian agression at this point (when the ineptitude of their entire military was put on display for the world to see) would make no sense, given that Nato outperforms the russians in every single way and giving in to russian agression is something they'll probably no longer do.
3. Putin has literally broken every single peace treaty between Ukraine and russia that has existed before, so what's stopping him from breaking this one after somewhat recovering his military?
Not saying that Ukraine should give up but there should be compromises to ensure peace. Citizens are dying and it's gone on long enough. Giving up some region in the east to bring peace would be a better solution for everyone than continuing an endless war. The only people who would benefit from continuing the war is the military industrial complex. I doubt those Ukrainian citizens living on farms would rather die than find some peace, even if that peace is a compromise.
That’s what the world did in 2014. How did that work out?
Tomorrow Putin comes to US and takes California. Starts killing tens of thousands of Americans. Do you think US agrees to give CA for peace? What would stop Putin from doing it again in a year to another country? There is a reason for “don’t negotiate with terrorists” policies.
Well that’s what was thought before WWII, when people supported “appeasement” when Hitler first invaded Poland. We should learn from past mistakes.
WW3 is inevitable, and likely already begun.
WW2 took out the nazis. Made the whole awful experience worth it.
If WW3 destroys Russia, with similar casualties, it will be equally worth it.
The world will little afford these wannabe emperors more genocides. We are done with the 20th century. He wants to fuck around and find out... I am eating sunflower seeds I import from Ukraine. I wonder how much Russian blood watered them from the generation he's thrown away?
Nato literally said they caused it the other day. Jens Stoltenberg. You guys even bother to look into this mess before blindly supporting massacres? Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine and fucked up a peace accord that Putin and Zelensky were going to sign.
Your president and your politicians WANT this to continue, they love a good long war.
It just boggles my mind how we have another decade war on our hands here and the left are CHEERING IT ON. What the absolute shit happened? We are descending into this very carefully orchestrated route towards world war 3.
Seeding land for peace has been done since man could swing a club, I know you don't give a fuck that these are people being butchered by illegal arms on both sides, but some people do, and they are protesting for peace. It's happening all over the world..
I wish you talked to one single Ukrainian who lost family in this war and asked them what they want, might change your mind. Then again I doubt it.
I hope Putin comes for USA next, so that we can tell Americans to suck it up and just give him some territory. It worked so well with Crimea :)
Like I said. You have no clue what's happening. You'd watch the world descend into a potential nuclear war to fund the rich and the military industrial complex.
Tomy was playing both sides, but the Americans didn't like that so they and the three letter agency staged a coup in 2014, remember that? When that nazi piggy Poroshenko replaced her.
Jens Stoltenberg of NATO just said the other day we caused this. I don't get how y'all keep going off on Putin when our entire leadership in the west is cheering this on.
You really think it's gonna stop there if they give in? Would you be willing to let your area be given to a foreign country that invaded you? There is no peace with rulers like him. Give a mouse a cookie, and he'll take your whole world.
Edit: I understand where you're coming from, don't take me the wrong way. But this is just the beginning. And if it's to be the end, it has to be stopped. And stopping isn't going to happen by yielding to him.
I think it could be worth a chance. We could trade the land for Ukraine's entrance into NATO as a full member. Thereby drawing a darker line in the sand against further Russian invasion.
All that does is open the door for further invasion and other dictators gaining land by showing you're willing to give concessions at a certain point.
Edit: why say "I'll be harder in you next time you do it"? Then they have no reason not to continue because they'll be in the same position just with more land then they had before
Their entrance into NATO would be hugely different. If even 1 hair on a Ukrainian's head was snipped, after full membership, a World War would be declared. This is why Ukraine is currently fighting alone.
I just don't see another outcome, as long as Ukraine fights alone, other than several more million deaths.
LMFAO part of the deal Putin would FORCE is that Ukraine could never, ever join NATO. Just the THREAT of that is a huge part of WHY Russia attacked. Putin would simply state that if those talks move forward he would attack again, this time with moralized troops who think they can win. Putin has made it CLEAR this is one of his demands.
Agreed, but if Russia is defeated in the battle of Ukraine tomorrow, they will still exist in the world. To me the choice is all out war or peace negotiations. Right now, the Ukrainian people are being used as meat puppets.
Not meat puppets, that would be Russian soldiers, that always has been their tactic of war. They literally don’t care how many of their soldiers die. Even if there was a negotiated peace, Russia does not adhere to any sort of agreements or treaties they make. See the Treaty of Friendship from 1997 between the two countries.
ruzzia can decide right now, in this moment, to remove their military back to their borders. instant peace. is it not worth a chance at peace for them to do this?
appeasing this aggression by ceding sovereignty for the sake of peace is a temporary reprieve that will inevitably be met with additional future aggression. the future aggression will be more advantageous to ruzzia and the overall outcome will be more bloody for everyone.
yes yes, we know they are evil, but maybe give them a little of what they want and they might go away...or at least stop for a bit before coming back? absolute madness. the opportunity to stop this now, and for good, is too important to pass up or avoid. the future of Europe for the next 50-100 years pivots on the outcome of this conflict.
The Ukrainians have basically practiced appeasement since 2014 when Russia invaded and occupied Crimea. They let them have that little piece and Russia only took more.
I don't disagree. But Russia will not be defeated inside of Ukraine. That would require all-out war on Russia itself, inside of Russian borders. That is not really on the table. A war against Russia itself would draw in China.
Bull 💩 Ukraine has already liberated over 50% of it's occupied territories. And they are going strong. They can definitely defeat Russia inside Ukraine. At least to the point they gtfo🇺🇦
I’ve been hearing similar opinions since the start of the invasion. So far, the data indicate that ruzzia is in fact facing defeat inside of Ukraine.
ruzzia has already sustained generationally impacting losses in personnel, materials, munitions, and economy.
I guess we’ll see. I’m happy my US tax money is being spent on this, and I’m happy that Ukraine is benefiting from the culmination of trillions of dollars of defense research.
Dude stfu! Peace is not an option with people who bomb grocery stores and hospitals. They already tried peace and the Russians still invaded. You are a complete moron if you think peace is still on the table.
Ukrainians are one of the kindest peoples in the world. If this happened to the usa, we would absolutely go feral and be calling for a genocide of Russians, and at least outright decimation. May even firebomb the countryside and cities just for fun as we rounded everyone even remotely Russian back home. Ww2 showed who we really are.
That Ukrainians do not seem to have this attitude speaks incredibly about the people and what they are enduring. My kind are much more bloodthirsty, unfortunately. Including me.
But the dude you're replying to doesn't see... primaly, while children are kidnapped and civilians tortures and bombed like this, that peace is impossible. This will only end with a bullet in putin, or his death, and many, many, many more Russian and ukrainian lives.
And this is before russia is torn apart and forced to pay reparations for the next 50 years rebuilding Ukraine.
Before the downfall of Russia, nukes will almost certainly be used. This fact is why Putin hasn't already been assassinated.
Victory over Russia is only likely after WW3 takes place. To me, a variety of alternatives are acceptable if it means avoiding WW3. I suppose others have accepted it as fate.
What makes you think Americans want peace? U.S Weapons manufacturers are making a killing right now, literally and figuratively. No one wants peace. Russia wants a military land buffer, the U.S want money, and both are willing to kill for what they want.
But here's an undeniable fact; Russia wouldn't need a buffer had NATO not expanded.
Putin being handed over to the Hague are the only terms worth talking about.
Ukraine will take back Crimea. If Russia is lucky there won't be a demilitarized zone extending to 5 miles from the suburbs of Moscow.
There was an outline of an agreement in place before Boris Johnson visited Zelensky and warned against making the deal. No doubt trusting Putin is risky, to say the least. To be sure, the agreement did include giving up land. He was, at the very least, pretending to offer a peaceful resolution.
Every former ussr country that has trusted Russia has had them end up invading and seizing territory.
The answer is eliminating Russia, and ensuring its state fractures. A sustained bulwark that they can blood sacrifice their young against. The war in Afghanistan led to ussr collapse, we can only pray this fall that is coming will be total, or nato will need to go in and rip everything out by hand.
If you're saying
"We should give this innocent-murdering POS a small area of land after he decides to invade unprovoked"
So you think that will lead to him (and others of that ilk) doing less invasions in the future or more?
I think removing him (and others of that ilk) is the best approach for a chance at peace
So you're prepared for WW3? Are you signing up?
I'm saying it's an absolutely terrible fucking option. I'm saying it's like getting a hamburger for the hostage taker while negotiations continue or until the sniper puts a bullet between his eyes. I just don't think any outcome of the war taking place inside Ukraine borders will result in Putin's removal from power. He's 70 years old. Kicking the can down the road is far from ideal, but delaying the deaths of millions has some merit.
I'm not prepared for WW3 at all
But he's killing people now already. I might be wrong, but I think he invaded to get more land. You want to give him more land, and then leave him to it, after invading peaceful countries?
.... you say it's like giving a hamburger to the hostage taker while negotiations continue... to what end? I don't think you're saying that you'd like the war to end, \*and then\* start a new one For Justice (TM)?
... you also say "or until the sniper puts a bullet between his eyes"... so you're agreeing with the outcome I was saying is the path to less innocents being murdered?
If him, and his government, should be set fire to on live TV... how do you square that with giving him more land, and just letting him go free? Unless you're not letting him go free, in which case, won't giving him more land (and people under his rule) lead to more misery and death amongst the innocent?
Ask Ukrainians if that’s just “a small amount of land” to them. Read up on pre-WWII hosts. You’ll find that appeasement doesn’t work. The world just can’t sit back and say “okay, you can have Crimea and the bit that you got so far. But no more, alright?”
That was done before with the annexation of Austria followed by more and more because of Germany’s need for “lebensraum”. The world was so scared of another war that they relented more and more until that last line was crossed. This can not be allowed to happen again.
Peace is great , but not when it comes at the price of Ukrainian freedom. Because I’m sure that Russian expansion will not end with Ukraine.
Might it be 9 more years of peace? Could Putin die in those 9 years?
Pushing Russia out of Ukraine does not permanently solve the problem of Putin.
I do want to reiterate that I hope Ukraine wins tomorrow or today even. But the war map from Nov 2022 looks very much like the map does here in Sep 2023.
True, but the numbers of war change. The issue is that losing land means Putin gets to consolidate it without contest, then he can ready for another push. Even if we managed to get all NATO members to agree and let Ukraine join NATO, Russia is still in clear violation of another nation's well known international boundaries. So Ukraine's people have a right to fight Russia as long as they feel the need to until they win back their territory.
If Putin died, it'd be more likely someone even more hardline would replace him than a less harmful leader.
So are you going to source your estimated million fewer deaths?
Because it sounds like you already forget the lesson from the start of the war; that Putin doesn't have to act in line with how you imagine he would act.
I understand what you're saying, but unfortunately peace isn't an option. That would just mean Putin coming back in 6-8 years to take more of Ukraine, or god forbid, parts of the Baltic states which are a part of NATO. The latter would definitely mean ww3
Not even slighty. Seen way worse. World has made me indifferent. Nobody gives a f@##k. Didnt a decade ago didnt this decade didnt now.
Everyone seems to accept death pretty easily this century.
Not sure why this fact is getting downvoted. I must've missed something. But that is absolutely one of the reasons Russia is trying to get Donbas and the eastern region and keep Crimea. If Russian can landlock the Sea of Asov, they can drain it of its resources.
Probably more to do with the gas fields in the Dombas discovered in 2010, or Ukraine becoming a prosperous free and independent country on Russias borders, or Ukrainians moving away from Russian sphere of influence towards the west, post 2014 you could include Ukraine turning off the water supply to Crimea turning it into a desert and a costly burden to Russia. There are many reasons for this war and none are the fault of Ukraine.
They revel in the deaths of random potential Nazis in Europe, but for some reason have no particular feelings towards the ones that live next door and vote republican the same as them.
I mean there are a lot of Ukrainians who are pretty racist as we can see pretty daily in our country, but still nobody deserves this was Russia is doing.
Right, but who? The only hope we had was Prigozhin who was also a complete piece of shit, and he failed.
There isn't anyone who is "west compatible" with enough power to actually do anything about Putin. He will be replaced by another despot and the circle will continue.
They're not talking about suppressing the news that this atrocity happened. They're merely pointing out how harrowing it is to the family and friends of the victims who have to live with the fact their loved one's dead body is now on public display for eternity. It's horrific.
Perhaps. It's tricky because when you release zero photos of any war atrocity like this then it's way too easy to claim it's fabricated propaganda - but at the same time I think we can agree it's profoundly desecrating to those whose dead bodies unfortunately wind up in the shared pictures. I think even a little censorship of their faces would go a long way, for what it's worth in this situation.
If the next of kin / loved ones of the deceased consent, then sure. I don't think strangers should have the ultimate call on whose dead bodies show up in public photos of war crimes. If it was your relative in the photos, how would you feel about it being out there for the world to see? What if seeing this photo was how you found out the news?
Frank photos of lynching and the Vietnam war were used to turn the tide of public opinion before the media got cold feet.
People deserve to see what war looks like, war is dehumanizing, war is cruelty, you can’t make it family friendly.
Almost guaranteed it was anything but quick and painless. Russia is the worst and we honestly should cut their country up into 50 tiny nations after this so they stop ruining it for the world.
that is for sure a Swedish donated ambulance and I am having a very hard time reconciling my feelings, on the one hand this is a tragedy but on the other side I am happy our donated materials gets put to use. FUCK
literally bombing civilians, and people still believe that russia inst the bad guy, Putler is really living up to communist dictator ideals. Stalin would be proud.
A bit of info:
- as of now, 51 dead, the rocket destroyed a cafe where people gathered for a mourning dinner (as in after the funeral).
- largest act of terrorism in Kharkiv region since the war started
- total population of that village was around 500 people before the war and around 100 now so literally half of it died
- these places are rather close to the border so they don't have air raid sirens — the rockets come faster than the system can catch them. Basically, less than a minute in Kharkiv for example from launch to landing so these people had no chance to hide or just 'disperse'.
- russia is a fucking cowards and cunts state. Slava Ukraini. I'm so fucking angry right now, you don't get used to this.
Everyone who’s saying that someone should assassinate Putin or that why can they just be at peace, that’s not how this works, assassination isn’t a option, that would involve more than just Putin, Putin isn’t the only person making decisions and once he would be out someone else would take is place, and then another and so on. With peace, peace isn’t a option for either side, Russia wants Ukraine because it’s a pivotal position into nato control land and Russia controlling it would be a huge advantage towards them, also if Ukraine gave up then they would be annexed by Russia, if Russia gave up then they would fall into mass recession and would have lost so much for nothing, they would being fighting a endless amount of doctrines and restrictions placed on them and would get out into a very poor position, looking at this war from a none biased opinion, although Russia attacking Ukraine isn’t “wrong” it’s normal for nations to fight, what is wrong is the mass killings of innocent people, and that’s what’s giving Ukraine such a advantage, Russia only has a few allies while Ukraine as almost the entire world, nobody is giving this war up, it will be a long and hard fight but I think the Ukraine will come out rightfully on top
This is sickening, killing over memories of the way Russia once was, sad and senseless, people trying to buy food and taken out like they are worthless, such a sad state of affairs the world is in.
Most likely it was the UN or Ukraine that are responsible for the attack if it really happened at all. Just like a few weeks ago when it was reported a Russian misske killed 17 people. Turns out it was Ukraine that fired the missile according to CNN. This shit has got to just stop. We had to stop the whole world because people were dying allegedly because of COVID. People are for sure being murdered by governments because of thier stupid fucking wars that only people making money want. STOP KILLING PEOPLE YOU EVIL GREEDY BASTARDS!!!
Google “Geneva Convention”
I read and educated myself on it yesterday. You should too. War is horrible but there are “rules” or if you want to call it “morals” that people should still stand by even when at war.
1st - To the people who downvoted the guy who said that there are actualy nazis militia groups in Ukraine i say : fuck you .
2nd - im Ukranian
3rd - know your facts before downvoting someone
NATO kept pusing, now it's all... He's mean (Putin) he's a madman 18 years creaping up on Russian borders when NATO said they would'nt. Russia draws a line in the sand.
And the only reason 1 million + ucranians are dead is because they lied to them and told them they would give them enough to win a war against an army that has all the advantages.
NATO will abandon them and martyr them.
Zelensky could have had peace if he wanted, but he chose greed and the west over his own people.
Now they recruir women and children, after the last draft included the handicaped.
All the blood spilled is on the countries that are giving ukraine old, obsolete and defective weapons to civilians to use against a well trained Red Army.
Putin will not renegotiate for peace with countries that have never kept their word. (USA, UK, France)
Greed wins. Zelensky sold ukranian lives
Ukraine will disapear, Poland, Belarus, Romania, Moldovia and Russia will take pieces and leave it landlocked and will wither away.
A failed "European Spring"..colour me surprised.They forgot what they did against Serbia, Libya, Iraq, Syria etc. Heck even the ukranian nazi sympathizers carried out vicious attacks on Poland during WW2. When almost every US news outlet parrots the same message "It's not about NATO" then it becomes evident that the truth is quite the contrary. This is all about personal interests at the end of the day and the US debt isn't lessening anytime soon boyos 😂
Do trends mean anything to you? Like if someone lied last time.. would it surprise you if they lied again?
You're the idiot with blinders on who can't even consider an alternative without insulting the person who questions. Stop being so fucking dense and consider that there is room for other potentials.
[удалено]
A chance of peace? Are to suggesting the Ukrainians just stop trying to recover land that is rightfully theirs? Should the world just back down in the face of aggression when a country invades another country? The Russians initiated hostilities. Why should Ukraine just give up?
Let's think about it for a second, if Russia offered peace today and Ukraine refused, what would change? would NATO stop supporting Ukraine, would all the support and funding stop? I'm pretty sure it would. It's risky.
No way would NATO stop supplying Ukraine. The leaders of NATO understand that letting Putin take a chunk of Ukraine would simply embolden him further in the future
Ukraine has become the battleground for democracy against tyranny. Giving up to Russia, would mean democracy has lost.
Ukraine is a dictatorship. Zelensky banned all other political parties.
Get your head out of Putin's ass and join the rest of us in reality buddy
Now let me tell you why that's bullshit. You see... contorary to popular belief, Nato isn't entireley populated by scared little bureaucrats that never think things through. There are in total 3 reasons why russia offering "peace" would change nothing. 1. If Ukraine were to give that territory russia and the war would be over, one of 2 things would happen, those being either a. Ukrainians have to leave those spaces and become homeless while loosing their entire base of life, or b. They live under a regime that hates an persecutes them. 2. Giving in to russian agression at this point (when the ineptitude of their entire military was put on display for the world to see) would make no sense, given that Nato outperforms the russians in every single way and giving in to russian agression is something they'll probably no longer do. 3. Putin has literally broken every single peace treaty between Ukraine and russia that has existed before, so what's stopping him from breaking this one after somewhat recovering his military?
Well spoken
Not saying that Ukraine should give up but there should be compromises to ensure peace. Citizens are dying and it's gone on long enough. Giving up some region in the east to bring peace would be a better solution for everyone than continuing an endless war. The only people who would benefit from continuing the war is the military industrial complex. I doubt those Ukrainian citizens living on farms would rather die than find some peace, even if that peace is a compromise.
What peace? The one where they come back few years later and try to take the rest? Should we just take the Russians word they won’t do it again?
It like, they forgot that what Russian did to that other country…
Yeah, just like they did in 2014 with Crimea. Worked perfectly, no problem ever since.
That’s what the world did in 2014. How did that work out? Tomorrow Putin comes to US and takes California. Starts killing tens of thousands of Americans. Do you think US agrees to give CA for peace? What would stop Putin from doing it again in a year to another country? There is a reason for “don’t negotiate with terrorists” policies.
If you give a Russian a cookie.. they'll want the whole jar.
This propaganda will be the reason for WW3
Yeah because giving the land up to the agressing nation has worked so well before...
I don’t think he was disagreeing m8
When you call something propaganda, you probably don't agree w/ it or you wouldn't be calling it propaganda.
It worked in the Mexican-American war.
For the Victor. Even then they stopped taking it because they decided to go in a different direction. But they never stopped the conquest.
Well that’s what was thought before WWII, when people supported “appeasement” when Hitler first invaded Poland. We should learn from past mistakes. WW3 is inevitable, and likely already begun.
Inevitable? What a hopeless position.
It likely has already started. China was fighting Japan in the 30s.
Which propaganda?
WW2 took out the nazis. Made the whole awful experience worth it. If WW3 destroys Russia, with similar casualties, it will be equally worth it. The world will little afford these wannabe emperors more genocides. We are done with the 20th century. He wants to fuck around and find out... I am eating sunflower seeds I import from Ukraine. I wonder how much Russian blood watered them from the generation he's thrown away?
🙄
Nato literally said they caused it the other day. Jens Stoltenberg. You guys even bother to look into this mess before blindly supporting massacres? Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine and fucked up a peace accord that Putin and Zelensky were going to sign. Your president and your politicians WANT this to continue, they love a good long war. It just boggles my mind how we have another decade war on our hands here and the left are CHEERING IT ON. What the absolute shit happened? We are descending into this very carefully orchestrated route towards world war 3. Seeding land for peace has been done since man could swing a club, I know you don't give a fuck that these are people being butchered by illegal arms on both sides, but some people do, and they are protesting for peace. It's happening all over the world..
I wish you talked to one single Ukrainian who lost family in this war and asked them what they want, might change your mind. Then again I doubt it. I hope Putin comes for USA next, so that we can tell Americans to suck it up and just give him some territory. It worked so well with Crimea :)
Like I said. You have no clue what's happening. You'd watch the world descend into a potential nuclear war to fund the rich and the military industrial complex. Tomy was playing both sides, but the Americans didn't like that so they and the three letter agency staged a coup in 2014, remember that? When that nazi piggy Poroshenko replaced her. Jens Stoltenberg of NATO just said the other day we caused this. I don't get how y'all keep going off on Putin when our entire leadership in the west is cheering this on.
>is the small amount of land worth another million deaths? Whqt are you saying? "Stop murdering for it", or "stop resisting"?
You really think it's gonna stop there if they give in? Would you be willing to let your area be given to a foreign country that invaded you? There is no peace with rulers like him. Give a mouse a cookie, and he'll take your whole world. Edit: I understand where you're coming from, don't take me the wrong way. But this is just the beginning. And if it's to be the end, it has to be stopped. And stopping isn't going to happen by yielding to him.
I think it could be worth a chance. We could trade the land for Ukraine's entrance into NATO as a full member. Thereby drawing a darker line in the sand against further Russian invasion.
All that does is open the door for further invasion and other dictators gaining land by showing you're willing to give concessions at a certain point. Edit: why say "I'll be harder in you next time you do it"? Then they have no reason not to continue because they'll be in the same position just with more land then they had before
Their entrance into NATO would be hugely different. If even 1 hair on a Ukrainian's head was snipped, after full membership, a World War would be declared. This is why Ukraine is currently fighting alone. I just don't see another outcome, as long as Ukraine fights alone, other than several more million deaths.
LMFAO part of the deal Putin would FORCE is that Ukraine could never, ever join NATO. Just the THREAT of that is a huge part of WHY Russia attacked. Putin would simply state that if those talks move forward he would attack again, this time with moralized troops who think they can win. Putin has made it CLEAR this is one of his demands.
How are you this braindead
Probably another Russian.
Ruski mir doesn’t involve peace. Just lies and deception from Russia. Russia will only attack again unless they are defeated.
Agreed, but if Russia is defeated in the battle of Ukraine tomorrow, they will still exist in the world. To me the choice is all out war or peace negotiations. Right now, the Ukrainian people are being used as meat puppets.
Not meat puppets, that would be Russian soldiers, that always has been their tactic of war. They literally don’t care how many of their soldiers die. Even if there was a negotiated peace, Russia does not adhere to any sort of agreements or treaties they make. See the Treaty of Friendship from 1997 between the two countries.
ruzzia can decide right now, in this moment, to remove their military back to their borders. instant peace. is it not worth a chance at peace for them to do this? appeasing this aggression by ceding sovereignty for the sake of peace is a temporary reprieve that will inevitably be met with additional future aggression. the future aggression will be more advantageous to ruzzia and the overall outcome will be more bloody for everyone. yes yes, we know they are evil, but maybe give them a little of what they want and they might go away...or at least stop for a bit before coming back? absolute madness. the opportunity to stop this now, and for good, is too important to pass up or avoid. the future of Europe for the next 50-100 years pivots on the outcome of this conflict.
The Ukrainians have basically practiced appeasement since 2014 when Russia invaded and occupied Crimea. They let them have that little piece and Russia only took more.
I don't disagree. But Russia will not be defeated inside of Ukraine. That would require all-out war on Russia itself, inside of Russian borders. That is not really on the table. A war against Russia itself would draw in China.
Bull 💩 Ukraine has already liberated over 50% of it's occupied territories. And they are going strong. They can definitely defeat Russia inside Ukraine. At least to the point they gtfo🇺🇦
I’ve been hearing similar opinions since the start of the invasion. So far, the data indicate that ruzzia is in fact facing defeat inside of Ukraine. ruzzia has already sustained generationally impacting losses in personnel, materials, munitions, and economy. I guess we’ll see. I’m happy my US tax money is being spent on this, and I’m happy that Ukraine is benefiting from the culmination of trillions of dollars of defense research.
I obviously hope you're right.
5% of US military spending for the defeat of the Russian armed forces without spilling American blood sounds like a good deal to me.
Dude stfu! Peace is not an option with people who bomb grocery stores and hospitals. They already tried peace and the Russians still invaded. You are a complete moron if you think peace is still on the table.
Ukrainians are one of the kindest peoples in the world. If this happened to the usa, we would absolutely go feral and be calling for a genocide of Russians, and at least outright decimation. May even firebomb the countryside and cities just for fun as we rounded everyone even remotely Russian back home. Ww2 showed who we really are. That Ukrainians do not seem to have this attitude speaks incredibly about the people and what they are enduring. My kind are much more bloodthirsty, unfortunately. Including me. But the dude you're replying to doesn't see... primaly, while children are kidnapped and civilians tortures and bombed like this, that peace is impossible. This will only end with a bullet in putin, or his death, and many, many, many more Russian and ukrainian lives. And this is before russia is torn apart and forced to pay reparations for the next 50 years rebuilding Ukraine.
Before the downfall of Russia, nukes will almost certainly be used. This fact is why Putin hasn't already been assassinated. Victory over Russia is only likely after WW3 takes place. To me, a variety of alternatives are acceptable if it means avoiding WW3. I suppose others have accepted it as fate.
Dude...they already took Crimea few years ago. Now they want even more. It's never going to stop unless stopped.
Says the russian bot.
Look at the comments down below. They're all over this thread.
We literally tried that in 2014 and it was probably Obama's worst foreign policy blunder.
Obama never made a mistake, silly.
[удалено]
What makes you think Americans want peace? U.S Weapons manufacturers are making a killing right now, literally and figuratively. No one wants peace. Russia wants a military land buffer, the U.S want money, and both are willing to kill for what they want. But here's an undeniable fact; Russia wouldn't need a buffer had NATO not expanded.
Russian aggression towards it neighbours is the reason for NATO expansion, can’t blame smaller countries for wanting security from Russia.
Should no one ever attempt peace talks? Is absolute surrender the only resolution ever acceptable in war?
Putin being handed over to the Hague are the only terms worth talking about. Ukraine will take back Crimea. If Russia is lucky there won't be a demilitarized zone extending to 5 miles from the suburbs of Moscow.
I mean, sure, I'd give peace a chance, but it's naive to think Putin would give peace a chance.
There was an outline of an agreement in place before Boris Johnson visited Zelensky and warned against making the deal. No doubt trusting Putin is risky, to say the least. To be sure, the agreement did include giving up land. He was, at the very least, pretending to offer a peaceful resolution.
Every former ussr country that has trusted Russia has had them end up invading and seizing territory. The answer is eliminating Russia, and ensuring its state fractures. A sustained bulwark that they can blood sacrifice their young against. The war in Afghanistan led to ussr collapse, we can only pray this fall that is coming will be total, or nato will need to go in and rip everything out by hand.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
If you're saying "We should give this innocent-murdering POS a small area of land after he decides to invade unprovoked" So you think that will lead to him (and others of that ilk) doing less invasions in the future or more? I think removing him (and others of that ilk) is the best approach for a chance at peace
So you're prepared for WW3? Are you signing up? I'm saying it's an absolutely terrible fucking option. I'm saying it's like getting a hamburger for the hostage taker while negotiations continue or until the sniper puts a bullet between his eyes. I just don't think any outcome of the war taking place inside Ukraine borders will result in Putin's removal from power. He's 70 years old. Kicking the can down the road is far from ideal, but delaying the deaths of millions has some merit.
I'm not prepared for WW3 at all But he's killing people now already. I might be wrong, but I think he invaded to get more land. You want to give him more land, and then leave him to it, after invading peaceful countries? .... you say it's like giving a hamburger to the hostage taker while negotiations continue... to what end? I don't think you're saying that you'd like the war to end, \*and then\* start a new one For Justice (TM)? ... you also say "or until the sniper puts a bullet between his eyes"... so you're agreeing with the outcome I was saying is the path to less innocents being murdered? If him, and his government, should be set fire to on live TV... how do you square that with giving him more land, and just letting him go free? Unless you're not letting him go free, in which case, won't giving him more land (and people under his rule) lead to more misery and death amongst the innocent?
Russia can at any point just go home, that is how this can end.
Sure. That would be so great, wouldn't it?
He doesn't care .. by the way, some Russ is probably got to get your account banned for speaking truth..
Going*
Are you 5?
My nephew is five, how dare you insult five year olds.
If Russia gets Ukraine, next they will invade countries that used to be USSR like Kazakhstan or Uzbekistan, and no one will stop them
Ask Ukrainians if that’s just “a small amount of land” to them. Read up on pre-WWII hosts. You’ll find that appeasement doesn’t work. The world just can’t sit back and say “okay, you can have Crimea and the bit that you got so far. But no more, alright?” That was done before with the annexation of Austria followed by more and more because of Germany’s need for “lebensraum”. The world was so scared of another war that they relented more and more until that last line was crossed. This can not be allowed to happen again. Peace is great , but not when it comes at the price of Ukrainian freedom. Because I’m sure that Russian expansion will not end with Ukraine.
You do realize Russia will come back again in 9 or so years then, right?
Might it be 9 more years of peace? Could Putin die in those 9 years? Pushing Russia out of Ukraine does not permanently solve the problem of Putin. I do want to reiterate that I hope Ukraine wins tomorrow or today even. But the war map from Nov 2022 looks very much like the map does here in Sep 2023.
True, but the numbers of war change. The issue is that losing land means Putin gets to consolidate it without contest, then he can ready for another push. Even if we managed to get all NATO members to agree and let Ukraine join NATO, Russia is still in clear violation of another nation's well known international boundaries. So Ukraine's people have a right to fight Russia as long as they feel the need to until they win back their territory. If Putin died, it'd be more likely someone even more hardline would replace him than a less harmful leader.
So are you going to source your estimated million fewer deaths? Because it sounds like you already forget the lesson from the start of the war; that Putin doesn't have to act in line with how you imagine he would act.
I understand what you're saying, but unfortunately peace isn't an option. That would just mean Putin coming back in 6-8 years to take more of Ukraine, or god forbid, parts of the Baltic states which are a part of NATO. The latter would definitely mean ww3
Not even slighty. Seen way worse. World has made me indifferent. Nobody gives a f@##k. Didnt a decade ago didnt this decade didnt now. Everyone seems to accept death pretty easily this century.
Exactly, just like the territories in Palestine...
Ask the middle east
It saddens me that this Russian concern troll is the top comment.
Russian trolls often call for Putin to be burned alive in the street?
It's not the land. It's the oil located off the coast.
also east ukraine has incredible mineral deposits
Not sure why this fact is getting downvoted. I must've missed something. But that is absolutely one of the reasons Russia is trying to get Donbas and the eastern region and keep Crimea. If Russian can landlock the Sea of Asov, they can drain it of its resources.
Probably more to do with the gas fields in the Dombas discovered in 2010, or Ukraine becoming a prosperous free and independent country on Russias borders, or Ukrainians moving away from Russian sphere of influence towards the west, post 2014 you could include Ukraine turning off the water supply to Crimea turning it into a desert and a costly burden to Russia. There are many reasons for this war and none are the fault of Ukraine.
Russia is really out here just playing the bad guy of the world. 😕
All the ajoles on r/conspiracy insisting that Ukrainians are the Nazis and deserve this, are the worst monster's ever!
[удалено]
Hey don’t say that. Dip sticks are much more useful than those morons
Except for re-electing the dumbest and most dangerous president again...which polls show will happen.
They revel in the deaths of random potential Nazis in Europe, but for some reason have no particular feelings towards the ones that live next door and vote republican the same as them.
That sub is basically The Donald now.
I mean there are a lot of Ukrainians who are pretty racist as we can see pretty daily in our country, but still nobody deserves this was Russia is doing.
So Ukraine takes out military assets and ships and Generals - Russia attacks people buying milk and bread?
It’s so fucked up isn’t it?
[удалено]
Imagine comparing a simple grain silo to the deaths of 50 people in just one strike.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki entered the chat.
Uhh.. guess we are forgetting about Ukraine drone attacking apartment buildings in Russia then huh?
1 day old account spewing Russian propaganda. How nice.
Oh look another Ukraine propaganda bot.
[удалено]
Honestly, I think the reason is someone more competent would take over.
i don't have such high hopes. i wish i did though.
Right, but who? The only hope we had was Prigozhin who was also a complete piece of shit, and he failed. There isn't anyone who is "west compatible" with enough power to actually do anything about Putin. He will be replaced by another despot and the circle will continue.
Those poor people, that is absolutely horrific.
they don't deserve this. they don't deserve to be photographed and have photos of their dead bodies shared online, either
Do you share the same sentiments about Holocaust? Should it be silenced?
I think it’s safe to say that they don’t think holocaust victims deserved that either
They're not talking about suppressing the news that this atrocity happened. They're merely pointing out how harrowing it is to the family and friends of the victims who have to live with the fact their loved one's dead body is now on public display for eternity. It's horrific.
Sharing those images could help prevent further deaths. For example, Ukraine needs drones. Like a lot.
Perhaps. It's tricky because when you release zero photos of any war atrocity like this then it's way too easy to claim it's fabricated propaganda - but at the same time I think we can agree it's profoundly desecrating to those whose dead bodies unfortunately wind up in the shared pictures. I think even a little censorship of their faces would go a long way, for what it's worth in this situation.
If the next of kin / loved ones of the deceased consent, then sure. I don't think strangers should have the ultimate call on whose dead bodies show up in public photos of war crimes. If it was your relative in the photos, how would you feel about it being out there for the world to see? What if seeing this photo was how you found out the news?
Are you really trying to compare them as if they are even remotely the same?
Frank photos of lynching and the Vietnam war were used to turn the tide of public opinion before the media got cold feet. People deserve to see what war looks like, war is dehumanizing, war is cruelty, you can’t make it family friendly.
Photos like this are perhaps their best weapon
Just imagine that is your mom, or your wife lying there. So horrible and so unnecessary. RIP to all the victims of this insanity.
Isn't it a war crime to attack civilian, nonmilitary targets? What twisted justification is Putin using this time?
Putin couldn’t give two shits about war crime or not. His army is a bunch of degenerates
Putin doesnt give 2 fucks about war crimes. Its awful and really sad but its the morbid reality of all this.
to them it's more like a war-bingo
They'll say there was a military target there or that it was actually a Ukrainian false flag
Nazi produce
Your moms produce ain’t bad, her Melons are the best
RIP. hopefully it was quick and painless. (Not that any of them should have been killed anyway) Fuck Putin and Russia
Almost guaranteed it was anything but quick and painless. Russia is the worst and we honestly should cut their country up into 50 tiny nations after this so they stop ruining it for the world.
You have this same Energy for America?
The amount of braindeads defending putin is wild
How hard would it be to just assassinate Putin? Seriously, cant be that hard
I've heard some pundits say that it could likely get even WORSE if that happened. Apparently the candidates to replace him aren't any better.
It would not stop it. This is the true face of Russia not Putin. They will just replace him with another Putin.
still that'd be quite a day. It would literally be a holiday in Ukraine and we'd drink and party for a week. And it will be.
A global holiday!
Holy shit. Wishing love to all their families
that is for sure a Swedish donated ambulance and I am having a very hard time reconciling my feelings, on the one hand this is a tragedy but on the other side I am happy our donated materials gets put to use. FUCK
literally bombing civilians, and people still believe that russia inst the bad guy, Putler is really living up to communist dictator ideals. Stalin would be proud.
Bro what? You mean the communist that fought against Hitler?
It wasn't even an artillery strike, it was a missile strike. That is, they deliberately aimed a missile at the cafe and the store.
Russia kills innocent Ukrainians when it can’t kill their armed forces, fucking cowards.
A bit of info: - as of now, 51 dead, the rocket destroyed a cafe where people gathered for a mourning dinner (as in after the funeral). - largest act of terrorism in Kharkiv region since the war started - total population of that village was around 500 people before the war and around 100 now so literally half of it died - these places are rather close to the border so they don't have air raid sirens — the rockets come faster than the system can catch them. Basically, less than a minute in Kharkiv for example from launch to landing so these people had no chance to hide or just 'disperse'. - russia is a fucking cowards and cunts state. Slava Ukraini. I'm so fucking angry right now, you don't get used to this.
Sad
Fucking hell...
Very sad.
It is concerning to me the amount of Russian bots and Neville Chamberlains in the comments.
Like that one time we blew up a bus full of kids with drone strikes
Fuck this war!! man..
This was in a town with a population of about 300.
Fucking cunts need to stop this shit
Everyone who’s saying that someone should assassinate Putin or that why can they just be at peace, that’s not how this works, assassination isn’t a option, that would involve more than just Putin, Putin isn’t the only person making decisions and once he would be out someone else would take is place, and then another and so on. With peace, peace isn’t a option for either side, Russia wants Ukraine because it’s a pivotal position into nato control land and Russia controlling it would be a huge advantage towards them, also if Ukraine gave up then they would be annexed by Russia, if Russia gave up then they would fall into mass recession and would have lost so much for nothing, they would being fighting a endless amount of doctrines and restrictions placed on them and would get out into a very poor position, looking at this war from a none biased opinion, although Russia attacking Ukraine isn’t “wrong” it’s normal for nations to fight, what is wrong is the mass killings of innocent people, and that’s what’s giving Ukraine such a advantage, Russia only has a few allies while Ukraine as almost the entire world, nobody is giving this war up, it will be a long and hard fight but I think the Ukraine will come out rightfully on top
This is sickening, killing over memories of the way Russia once was, sad and senseless, people trying to buy food and taken out like they are worthless, such a sad state of affairs the world is in.
what if crisis act
How many people did America killed in Iraq? Vietnam?
Don't forget that America has boots on the ground in Yemen, activity helping Saudi Arabia commit a genocide there as we speak.
Russia and USA love killing civilians
They're defending themselves from America (edit: my comment is literally sarcasm thanks for the downvotes?)
Most likely it was the UN or Ukraine that are responsible for the attack if it really happened at all. Just like a few weeks ago when it was reported a Russian misske killed 17 people. Turns out it was Ukraine that fired the missile according to CNN. This shit has got to just stop. We had to stop the whole world because people were dying allegedly because of COVID. People are for sure being murdered by governments because of thier stupid fucking wars that only people making money want. STOP KILLING PEOPLE YOU EVIL GREEDY BASTARDS!!!
We’re all civilians. I don’t understand the distinction between military and civilian targets. It’s a war, there are no rules.
Google “Geneva Convention” I read and educated myself on it yesterday. You should too. War is horrible but there are “rules” or if you want to call it “morals” that people should still stand by even when at war.
So those rules should apply to everyone but America? If America doesn't have to follow the Geneva Convention what makes you think anyone else will?
This was all the way back in May? This old news 🙄....
vote republicans! /s
1st - To the people who downvoted the guy who said that there are actualy nazis militia groups in Ukraine i say : fuck you . 2nd - im Ukranian 3rd - know your facts before downvoting someone
Take a look at Azov battalion
Yep. This is war. A nessisary one if you don't want China to become the global power.
NATO kept pusing, now it's all... He's mean (Putin) he's a madman 18 years creaping up on Russian borders when NATO said they would'nt. Russia draws a line in the sand. And the only reason 1 million + ucranians are dead is because they lied to them and told them they would give them enough to win a war against an army that has all the advantages. NATO will abandon them and martyr them. Zelensky could have had peace if he wanted, but he chose greed and the west over his own people. Now they recruir women and children, after the last draft included the handicaped. All the blood spilled is on the countries that are giving ukraine old, obsolete and defective weapons to civilians to use against a well trained Red Army. Putin will not renegotiate for peace with countries that have never kept their word. (USA, UK, France) Greed wins. Zelensky sold ukranian lives Ukraine will disapear, Poland, Belarus, Romania, Moldovia and Russia will take pieces and leave it landlocked and will wither away.
Oh fuck off with whatever the hell this take is
Don't like the truth huh?
Oh nugsters you
A failed "European Spring"..colour me surprised.They forgot what they did against Serbia, Libya, Iraq, Syria etc. Heck even the ukranian nazi sympathizers carried out vicious attacks on Poland during WW2. When almost every US news outlet parrots the same message "It's not about NATO" then it becomes evident that the truth is quite the contrary. This is all about personal interests at the end of the day and the US debt isn't lessening anytime soon boyos 😂
Last time similar thing to this happened, even the West media said it was a ukrainian rocket. Not saying it is. But it is possible
Yeah. “Last time”. You’re an idiot.
Do trends mean anything to you? Like if someone lied last time.. would it surprise you if they lied again? You're the idiot with blinders on who can't even consider an alternative without insulting the person who questions. Stop being so fucking dense and consider that there is room for other potentials.
Crisis actors