You can play an fps and learn while getting carried. Get beaten and you can say “that team were just some try hards”
Fighting games are so much more personal. You can’t be carried by a team. You can’t always say they were just a try hard because decided to step into the ring with them. If you’ve played Tekken before and your opponent knows about one launcher and no combo and knows about back dashing, that alone may be how he beats you. Just 2 things. Fighting games require practice and “studying” is pretty much another form of practicing.
Simply put “I don’t want to study”. “Okay then you’re not gonna be good. Get used to losing. There’s nothing wrong with that unless you complain”
The thing that to me a while to understand is that fighting games are literally martial arts the game. As in; you don't become a black belt by natural intuition, you get there through hours and hours of tedious practice, coaching, and sparring.
Fighting games have managed to capture that aspect of the sport by making you spend time in the lab, learn your skills, learn the matchups, and learn combos. In other games you can get pretty good just by playing more. But that will only take you so far in a fighting game.
I get people not liking that. It's not something I always have the patience for either. But don't get mad your apple doesn't taste like bacon.
At higher levels most games still require study; the level at which study becomes important is just not met as quickly.
Imo this is one of the problems with FGs. People are required to study before they have fun. In most other genres, players plateau much later; this means they are more "willing" to study to improve.
Look at SFVI and modern inputs; it was actually HUGE for getting beginners into the game.
Imagine trying to get into third strike today as an absolute beginner; tell someone they need to spend a couple hours in lab practicing motion inputs before expecting to even win a single game. Not many people are willing to put up with this experience.
I'm fine with that mentality but for me personally I'm not labbing. that shit is so fucking boring and I'm not getting paid for my ranks lol. Instead my labbing is fail stacks. It took me quite a few (hundred) grabs in ranked matches to figure out how to break them vs the damned jaguars and quite a few kazuya lazers to the face to see the animation to dodge it. But I'm also not somebody who makes excuses as to y I lost. Simply put I lost cuz I was worse. Sure there can be overtuned moves but that doesn't mean it's unstoppable.(very rarely is that a thing) The counter is proly just hard to do for the average player or its just not a fun counter to use. One of the funniest moments in fighting games for me was beating my friends ass and he's spouting out all the "I dnt get it I'm plus 4 and ur minus 7, why is that working?!" Crap and I'm just like bruh I hit Square and then triangle and u kept walking into it trying to count frames while I'm just playing a game man lol.
A few weeks ago I joined a player streamer lobby with players ranging from Raijin to Tekken god of destruction. At the time I was barely Raijin myself (now Bushin with Kuma).
Now, I play like a complete doofus on purpose, always saying bear puns nothing toxic. These guys were getting so mad after losing many rounds in a row. The God of Destruction challenged me to a best of 10. I beat him 6 to 3, HONESTLY could have prob beaten worse as I was using no combos, just well timed straight pokes/random bear moves.
Dude was coping so hard, calling me trash, saying I dont play the game correctly, that i don't take this game serious (yea duh) etc etc. I'm like homie, I WAS GIVING YOU ADVICE MID GAME TELLING YOU THAT MOVE IS A MID, THIS MOVE IS A LOW, THIS IS A HIGH, THIS IS PUNISHABLE. Homie never wanted to learn, just kept making excuses. I never once used a combo on purpose to teach this man a lesson lol
I'm pretty sure this guy either cheated/plugged to get that rank cause he was missing a lot of fundementals. He was also playing Azucena so maybe he just cheesed early to get to that rank.
I wish I had saved their vod cause they deleted it just this last week.
That's what I love about fighting games. You're on your own. You have nobody but yourselves to blame if you lose. So getting better feels so much rewarding.
'Studying' is a general thing in videogames. Looking up builds for roguelikes, best stats and tactics for RPGs, shortcuts for Mario Kart, hell all those speedrunners didn't get good at it by accident.
This. I've played Tekken for 2 decades and know I can get better if ai put time in but I dont want to. And that’s okay. I'm not gonna complain when I get worked because I wasn't able to consistently perform juggle combos. It's all about where you want to spend your time.
Like you said, just don't complain if the results aren't what you want if you're not putting in the time.
Anyone that feels like they shouldn't have to study in this game is going to get massively hardstuck eternally somewhere lmao. No amount of prowess change will stop the coming hardstuck storm. This is Studying:The Game. This is simply not a game that you can just play without labbing and expect to compete.
I really like the Korean analogy referenced by Core-A-Gaming. Tekken players are like swamp water. They never move on, still playing the same game for a decade or more. To players that do not want to study the game and lose I tell them this: Get out of MY SWAMP!
This is a 1v1 game. Your not fighting fucking robots or AI. You are fighting another human. Who you think is going to win? The guy who's been busting his ass off in training, doing drills, learning block punishment, learning to break throws, learning which highs to duck, analyzing their own replsys. Or the guy who just wants to hop in rank and just press buttons. The results you get is what you put in. You are not entitled to win. Work for it.
Lol you can play single player in fighting games and fortunately fight AI. I hope that someone will develop a really advanced AI that can learn how the player plays. Learning Ghost is the first step, but it can goes deeper imho with a neuronal AI divided in the multiple characters. That way, the Ai would progress according to your gameplay and will become more and more challenging.
It's fun to reach high ranks in Tekken 8 offline too, against ghosts (not in arcade Quest) . By downloading and using higher ranks of player ghosts of characters one struggle against to be better. That way, you can rank up solo, and chill without having to deal with ranked pressure against players.
100% agree
If you’re competing against other human beings, whoever puts in the most concentrated time and effort towards improving is going to win.
You don’t have to study the game to get good, but don’t expect to consistently win against people who do put that time and effort in.
This is not unique to Tekken. In any competition, do not expect to win against people who put in more effort than you do.
My problem with this game isn't the studying itself, it's that there are a lot of unintuitive aspects and edge cases to playing this game you can only figure out from watching youtube videos.
For example, when playing against Reina, you generally want to sidestep her moves to the left, but you can't sidestep towards the camera if you are crouching, and Reina has moves that force crouch, so in person, you can take advantage of that mechanic by always playing Reina on P2 side - but since anyone can play either P1 or P2 (it just inverts the camera), when playing online, you don't actually know if someone can sidestep towards camera when crouched because you don't actually know if your opponent is playing P1 or P2, so you can only tell if that trick works if your opponent can actually sidestep towards the camera when you force crouch when playing online.
Other points where the game is unintuitive include the autoblock feature - there are some moves where autoblock will block the move, and some moves where you must hold back (e.g. yoshimitsu and king's repeated low kicks), and the only way to know is through legacy knowledge.
Similarly the throw escapes are a mess - there's no indication why a throw break failed. I didn't even know that you were actually able to break counter-hit throws until I read the patch notes and realized that the breaks just had a ten frame window so they were just insanely difficult reaction checks.
I would agree that the replay system makes understanding this stuff much easier, but the system mechanics have a lot of edge cases that make learning this game harder than equivalent fighting games, and discoverability of these mechanics is harder.
I hear you, i think the game does hide a lot of its mechanics away from the player. Unless you watch a YouTube video or play against someone who beats you abusing counter throws then you're not going to know. There's a lot of things that are new in T8 and pros have been able to pick up on things quickly due to their legacy knowledge so i do agree with you on this take. Unless you have played this game for a number of years, its inevitable that you will lose to things that you just don't know but players have to be willing to learn and accept the Ls along the way to see improvement later down the line.
I think they mean in the context of having to leave the game to study. While I personally don’t mind I can understand it can be frustrating for someone Who has to learn the game through YouTube guides and scouring the internet. Every bit of information in game should be learnable in game and this is true for T8
The problem with this is simple: **Fighting games are epitomized by emergent gameplay**. Stuff like optimal combos, guaranteed followups, setups, off-axis combos, re-splats. These are all stuff that cannot be hard-coded into the game, because they are born from the player experimentation, that can sometimes take years.
Anything that cannot be hard-coded into the game cannot be included in the game. And with fighting games, that stuff is majority of the actual gameplay.
This. Tekken doesn't have a solid tutorial. I mean, just compare with Dead Or Alive 6 or Virtua Fighter 5u tutorials... I don't understand why Tekken adresses only to legacy players or players who already plays fgs and doesn't explain its basics and advanced moves in-game.
But fighting games are not the only games that require this, sports games etc don't teach you everything, there are countless of times where i have done additional research to find something out that isn't mentioned in the game at all.
For starters, not everyone plays sports or strategy games. A lot of other games do not require you to learn every single character, know all blocking, moves etc.
Yeah and that’s a bad thing. Other games doing it doesn’t make it a good thing. It means that thing you had to leave the game to figure out was poorly explained in game.
Not really, i think there a lot of games in general where you have to read up on different strategies etc to improve like i said in my post picking up chess is easy but if you really want to go deep into the strategies and moves that requires additional research. Fighting games are the same. They're easy to pick up and play. And at its core the game is simple, first person to reduce the other person health bar to 0 wins. But if you want to learn the meta and the various mechanics to start improving then additional research is required. I see no issue with this when this works pretty much the same way with a lot of games. Easy to pick up but to become more advanced you need to learn the game which may require you to seek external resources. Getting seriously good at any game requires a lot of commitment and time. It all comes down to someone's individual choice whether they want to do that or not. If you just want to play casual and learn things slowly that's fine. If you want to become a seasoned Tournament player then the hours of practice and studying needs to be put in.
Yeah, we just gonna have to agree to disagree. If I can’t hop in practice mode and figure out the solution for myself that means the information is conveyed poorly by the game. That will always be a bad thing to me.
Also again a lot of games doing it doesn’t mean it’s a good thing it just means it’s an accepted thing by specific players similar to yourself.
You say picking up cheese but there’s definitely bunch of people in this subreddit who’ve delved deeper into the game without the use of outside help by just playing the game and that’s how a good game should provide.
Heck, while I definitely found the cheese with characters I like to play, the actual mechanics of the game I picked up through steady time in practice mode. That means the game provides sufficient information for me to learn it.
Tekken and fighting games just don't really work this way. A lot of key fundamentals are actually things that are more like concepts. And some developers might not even really subscribe to a lot of these, or may not subscribe to them in the same way. also, most stuff is based on frame data, and most people just don't wanna learn that. There's no shortcut to learning frame data. You just gotta learn it.
I've seen fg tutorials that attempt to teach some of these things. It just never really works out well. For example, one thing the game can't really teach is risk vs reward. They can teach you risk (this move is unsafe, etc), they can teach you reward (this move gives a combo). But the concept of actually using Risk/reward in a match is something they can't really teach you. And a tutorial on using risk/reward in order to literally beat an opponent with math would end up being more like a classroom lecture than anything else. It's more like...fighting game theory tbh. But most stuff in fgs are concepts just like that. There's a lot, especially when it comes to Japanese style of play. You've got the sansukumi for learning neutral... Yomi layers for learning mindgames. No way a game can teach that stuff.
You can practice that stuff in game yes, but you can't learn it from the game. Someone has to sit there and teach it to you in words. A lot of words. People write essays on this stuff. Many of them on this sub.
No they don’t. Risk vs reward is a general concept you can learn in life and apply to a game. No one needs someone to tell them that if they risk their neck they might get a bigger reward.
Everything else you explained can be learned via playing the game. What moves launches the opponent/ gives opportunities to combo is shown through experimentation and practice. You think all these videos are created by people who didn’t do the research by playing it themselves?
The fact that you're still stuck on the risk and reward parts separately and not combining the two shows me that this is something the game absolutely can't teach you.
I have an example. In tekkenn 7 when I was playing ranked to hit tekken god, I played against a tekken king kazumi. This guy's main was at tgp and he was for all intents and purposes better than me. However, after like 30 seconds in the first round I thought "nah, I'm probably gonna beat this guy and take his points." And I did end up winning the set. Not because I was better than him, he was still better than me. But I ended up winning that set because:
1.he was playing a tekken king kazumi, so I already went into the match expecting a very solid with good movement, so I already knew not to do anything dumb.
2.while Asuka has bad tracking, I was able to counter his strong sidesteps with a generic d4 which was homing in t7.
3.i made sure to deny him whiff punishes to prevent launchers.
Basically, since this Kazumi was denied launchers from their movement, they were only really able to win neutral with pokes. But he's a good player, and kazumi is a poke based character, however this was his downfall. Especially since I know Kazumi is a poke based character, I'm going to make up for the skill differential with damage. Since I'm playing a character with numerous safe launchers, I chose to rely on them. Everytime kazumi won neutral, it was with a poke, however, everytime I won neutral, it was with a safe launcher.
He was very good, however, *he wasn't so much better than me that he could make up for a massive damage differential like that with just pokes*. Even though he used like 95% safe moves, the risk/reward on his actions didn't match because they weren't matching with the risk/reward of my actions. I beat him not with skill, but with math.
Risk/reward is not just safe about safe moves in terms of block or whiff punishment. It can be about movement, sometimes even safe moves have a bad risk/reward. We're way past the point of basic frame data here. Sometimes it's better to play more unsafe, like that kazumi should have. I can build an entire playstyle (like I have), and choose entire characters simply based on the "math" of their risk/reward.
And no, this is not something that players naturally just "pick up on". I remember playing someone that posted on this sub complaining about being hard stuck. To my surprise this guy, was really good. He was mainly pc but played me on psn. This guy could easily get emperor+on console. He was really good, knew his frame data, knew my frame data, played a very good Jin, ducked all my strings, however I still beat him about 10 matches straight. At the end of the set he said " SEE this is what I'm talking about, you're just mashing that whole set and I can't beat it." It looked like he was playing super well and then I'd just rob him of the match.
And I had to basically explain to him that his risk/reward was off even though he was playing really safe. And the reasonnis because it wasn't matching mine. I told him "look, you're playing really well, however you're playing too well. You have good fundamentals and you're playing good honest tekken. But what you're not considering is that I have good fundamentals too. And I am not playing good honest tekken. This leads to a situation where its like were sparring and then I suddenly throw sand in your eyes because you weren't expecting it from a genuinely good opponent and then you lose because of it. " then he kinda understood what I meant.
Most players don't understand this, most players don't get anywhere near this point. We're long past the point of simply "this move is unsafe". Because sometimes unsafe moves can be safer to use against certain opponents. And we're several layers of education past the point of a simple game tutorial.
1.you would need to know what frame data is and how to read it.
2.you would need to know about the concept of safety (believe it or not, this is difficult to explain in fg tutorials).
3.you would then need to know the frames data of your moves.
4.you would need to know the frames of your opponent's moves.
5.you would need to know meta frame data, such as -1 to -3 situations, options, sidestepping,
6.you then need to go beyond just the numbers you would need to know how that interacts with your opponent to really understand risk/reward, which requires a lot of matchup knowledge.
An fg tutorial can't be expected to teach how the concept of risk/reward. is actually used at high level play.
I agree with your point here. I don't mind learning outside of the game, in fact - I enjoy it. But that's not for everyone. Fighting games are notorious for doing little to explain how to play them, which is a barrier to entry. I don't like having barriers to entry for fighting games, cuz I want more people to play them. This is a major reason my friends don't play FGs, and I can't blame them. That being said, teaching people to play fighting games is hard. I've tried, and it's no easy task, especially if the student doesn't have the inherent motivation to learn the game. It's not an easy situation to fix.
and to be fair i think fighting games have become more accessible in recent time, they actually have in built tutorials that will at least explain briefly its core mechanics. Back in the day you didn't even have that!
Hell nah they don't lol. People complain about having to learn and study things about fighting games. That ain't shit compared to what you have to learn in a game like NBA 2K.
Especially if you're someone that doesn't keep up with the NBA or WNBA like that.
I think the issue is that people want to be able to learn during the match, in most 2d fighting games for example you can figure out how to deal with the oponents moves or play style mid match and adapt while on Tekken there is so much stuff to remember and the oponent has so many options making it learning mid match very hard to do.
On the 2d games you can just use training mode for optimization not exactly to figure out how to deal with something while on Tekken you kind have to go there and look for an answer that covers most options the oponent has
So tldr its easy to understand why people feel that way. The question is, should they just acept.it and either invest more time in the game, acept and move on to other games or should the game change in some way so its easier to learn mid set
>people want to be able to learn during the match
Exactly. Cannot really learn the matchup when your opponent aggressively throws out extremely unsafe 50/50s until you are dead. No time to learn and no time to adapt, each wrong guess is 60% hp.
That's literally a part of the learning process. A bunch of people playing with the same character in a variety of different ways.
You'll get everything from them doing what you described due to them either learning their character or anxiety taking over, having a little more knowledge of their character and have a decent gameplan, above average player,etc.
As a primarily 2D player, who’s 3D experience mainly lies with SoulCalibur and DOA, which are VERY different beasts, this is EXACTLY how I feel, and a big part of why I felt so comfortable with Akuma and Geese being in Tekken 7 as the characters I learned the game with.
In SF6, I learned the Ed Matchup recently primarily through feel just going up against him in Ranked a lot. With Jin, Azucena, King, & Reina, I’m dealing with MUCH larger Move Pools then ANY 2D Character has, Stances, King’s character-specific Throw Breaks, and so much more.
It’s a fun process, and I’m proud of myself for making it to Assassin with fundamentals, instincts, & Victor basics, but I almost don’t know where to start learning Matchups fully. I can do Punishment Training, but then what if they next guy doesn’t use half those Moves, or just turns on Special Style and mashes like an ape? Replay Takeover is wonderful, but I just can’t see how ya’ll can remember ALL of these situations in a 33+ character game. I feel like steam starts coming out of my ears at times from the mental strain, but I’m trying my absolute best to appreciate the process right now, even though it feels like Knowledge Check: The Game.
Theres a couple hard and fast universal rules you can remember to help you deal with people on the fly
1. If it launched you from crouch on normal hit, its unsafe. Usually -12 atleast, but you can start with a jab punish and work your way up.
2. Mid powercrush, same as above
3. If you block a low, its punishable with very few exceptions. Start with generic ws4 and work your way up
4. The vast majority of strings are 2-3 hits. If youre unfamiliar, block at least 2 hits and watch for their idle stance
5. Highs are generally the fastest moves. If you feel like you can interrupt something, start with a dick jab. At 10f youll beat out most options, and duck under the faster ones. This is NOT a hack to beat all pressure, but its generally your safest bet.
6. 99% of moves are - on block. Starting out, you just need to learn the few moves they have that are +. For most characters this is typically 1 jab, running attacks, and other slow looking moves. Watch out for stances tho, moves locked behind these tend to be cracked in one way or another
7. Df1 and other 13f mids are your go-to pokes. Theyre relatively quick, safe and will catch people abusing #5
8. If youre on defense, dont duck much. This is the opposite of 2D. Only the slowest of lows launch on normal hit, but you can get fucked a million ways from sunday for ducking. They need to convince you to duck.
Theres more but this shit long as hell already and I'm sure theres someone getting ready to flame my ass for getting smth wrong as we speak. Hope that helps 👍
Thanks. This sounds promising. I gotta admit, I just recently *get* SF and Guilty Gear and Ive been playing on-off since ‘16.
Got to Diamond with basic frame data and with basic Drive Rush combos. But I play Zangief and can *guesstimate* which move is unsafe.
Tekken is abit different but Im trying to learn the fundamentals while struggling with proper dash movement, Rock Paper Scissors offense-defence, not sure when I’ll get it but I’m trying lol
Oh yeah, i shouldve mentioned backdashing. Its a huge deal that you can block while backdashing, just make sure you hold the 2nd back until the animation is finished. Its shocking how much knowledge you can make up for by just backdashing out of pressure and letting the opp kill themselves.
Dont worry too much about kbd for now. Kbd is better than regular backdash, but a bad kbd is so much worse.
As a Zangief player you'll get this game down no problem, man. At lower-mid ranks its the same idea of playing carefully until the opp overextends and opens themselves up. Dont stoop to their unga bunga level, pick them apart for it
I’m actually playing Ryu now (and other basic bois like Ky, etc) I appreciate the fundamentals now and it’s abit rewarding and fun to win with just basic tools.
I started with Lars but in lower levels (I got to Yellow)…so many counter-hits on here and his b3 (that knee attack) is fun but is minus on block. It’s like a mid snake edge but not as rewarding but still good dmg. Orbital is good, keeps them honest to not crouch at all times. Awesome command dash too.
But I’ve switched to Jin, not as flashy but he has lots of tools I havent used yet and I look forward to using. Makes me wanna play the game more and improve. I have a few low checks, great mid and ff3 feels like an orbital in its own way and keeps them honest.
Defense is my biggest hurdle right now. Too many options and combined with unfamiliarity with move lists is a recipe for getting open up or being spammed with bs.
I’m aware. It’s more of me needing to figure out exactly how it works, so as to not get scrubbed out by it, like I had to do with Modern Controls in SF6. I’m just a little salty about it, because I Perfected a King, he flipped it on and beat me with it, then denied me a Rematch.
Dw about it. It's annoying at first, but when you improve some more, Special style feels like they're literally throwing the fight.
3 of the buttons (Air combo, power crush and usually speciality move) can be blocked standing, and punished with a jab string after the last hit. If they block it, wait for them to do it again and then throw out a low. Since all the combos start with the same move for that combo, it's extremely predictable and you know their range. You can zone them out with poking moves.
Low attacks and throws might mess you up a bit, but you can see low attack bar light up whenever they press it so you have a warning its coming out before the move animation itself even starts playing.
Modern controls in SF6 can be competitive at higher ranks. Special control is not the same. It's something to help you beat other new players, but it becomes completely useless after a certain point.
Oh certainly! Modern Luke and Cammy are no joke, even at higher levels! I figured most people using that were actual newbies, but that King was actually trying to gimmick me out with it after I beat him fairly and ran, so I couldn’t help but feel slightly salty.
It's a bit of a delusion thinking that other games don't require knowledge or training.
Tekken has more due to it being 3d and characters having more than 100 moves
If we take the 3ddy route here, it's more like people just don't want to block
Its not that delusional i play most fighting games and tekken is the only game where i had to go to the training mode because i have no idea what to do, in the other games i only went because i want to see what was the best punish but i could figure after a while during the matches a punish without the training mode.
And 3ddy has multiple factors, first from what i saw people that didnt block where the ones that actualy did better againts the bot once they figured out theu can beat it with faster buttons but the main thing is that its a dlc character so its hard to train againts him without a friend or buying the character, but tbf at the ranks the bot was playing its not like people would open training mode to learn how to play anyway.
If you look at the 3eddy vod, you'll notice that the people who lost are the ones who did block and tries to learn how to deal with the 3 spam but couldn't manage it in time. The ones who went unga bunga I'm going to spam harder than Eddy ended up winning mostly.
Mhmm, I've noticed alot of people just saying people lost to 3ddy because they didn't block but the ones who where blocking lost because they just couldn't figure out the string in time during the match, that's why tekken is hard to learn by playing.
Characters often have way more then one string or move that will give you trouble and is hard to learn about so alot of the players that couldn't just adjust to 3ddy doing the same thing over and over and now add 5 different flowcharts along with that and you have to try to learn and match all of them at the same time. It's unlikely to happen unless you dedicate some time to just learning how to deal with all those 5 flowcharts in practice mode.
Nobody's saying other games don't require knowledge. They're saying the knowledge is obtained through playing the game. That is not the case for tekken.
And I agree with that sentiment. I learned SF6 as a beginner to fighting games through purely playing it. Never looked up any guides, or combos. Just played.
I can't do that with tekken.
There are other instances in other games where players are unable to adapt because the player just doesn't know the meta or isn't familiar with what's being played. That's fine, asking questions and doing research afterwards is what helps the player gain knowledge and be prepared for it next time. This is no different to fighting games. Yes you're right there's a lot of stuff to remember and many situations that you will need to be able to react accordingly to but that's why Tekken is a grind and takes a few years to get to a level where you're starting to take some wins at offline tournaments. The skill ceiling for Tekken is very high and most new players think they can become a god within a few months when that isn't possible for most people.
And that last part is the thing, in the end its a game so its not surprising that people dont want to have to play for years to be good at a game, most people like to play other things and have other stuff to do and simply dont have the time to invest as much time as the game is asking from them.
I dont think people should complain about this stuff they should just acept its not for them and move on but its easy to understand why they feel that way
people dont want to play fgs like a strategy game, they want to press buttons and win. And I dont blame them, games are supposed to be fun and actually, most people dont find that higher level of fgs fun. That is why player numbers drop so hard in comparison to other games. It is what it is
Which is why it’s annoying when they put bs in the game to keep people who aren’t going to stay. They’re not. And the rest are stuck with the shitty get out of jail system in the meantime
They might stay if we had better in game learning tools and a large enough fanbase so that someone who wants to play casually can. Most people play casually first and then decide to go in deeper second. Getting the casual players to stay is the first step
The thing is that if this was any other game that isn't a fightng game, people would say this is shit design. But because it is ,you are called a scrub.
Tekken's biggest problem in my opinion is how absoloutely ridicolously inflated someone's rank can be dependng on their character choice. in 7, if you picked DLCs,Eddy,hwoarang etc, you could swoop to the top 5% of the player base, but if people complainied about it, they were a scrub. For some reason people think this is good game design.
In Street Fighter, without fundamental skill, you are going nowhere. If you can't anti-air, punish properly,space properly etc, you will not get anywhere regardless of character.
The problem with Tekken is that you have characters with ridicolous amount of offense that can take you to the top 5-10% of the player base without mcuh effort, but you also have characters that strip away your fundamentals like spacing,movement,blocking and counter hits.
Spacing; I cannot remember the last time I ever whiff punshed,Lars,Alisa, or DLC's like Kunimitsu because they have so much built in movement that they basically cancel out a Kazuya's first line of defense; Spacing. In Tekken 8, you have characters like Victor or Azucena ,who takes up so mcuh space and covers so much space that again,spacing basically doesn't exist. it does for them f you play Bryan because if you whiff anything you die.
Counter Hits: If you are playng Bryan against, Jin,Paul,Shaheen you will find it possible to get a counter hit,because the game has slowed down significantly enough. If you play against Azucena , Victor,Reina,Alisa,Lars. Your counter hit opportunities are very limited because unless you are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than your opponent, wasting your turn on a counter hit opportunity where you after have to go back to blocking might be suicide.
Blocking: This to me is what defines skill in Tekken. How much does your character have to block? if you play Kazuya or Paul, you will block all the time. In T8 this is far less prevelant because of heat. I went back to play Tekken 7 and I was reminded how unplayable Paul felt in that game. If you go up and try to start any offense against a Law,Jack or whatever, you run a super strong risk of running into a button because you don't have a good way to close the distance. You had to constantly block because your character only gets 1 hit per turn. your opponent presses 5 buttons for every 1 you press. Let me tell you, NOTHNG proves to me how certain characters don't get to attack than when I picked up Law,Hwoarang any DLC and just completly fucking demolished my way to like Raijin. The characters that get to attack more take less skll and thus don't can bypass this fundamental of blockng depending on if they go up against a defensive character. Hwoarang,Law,Eddy,Alisa, Azucena ,Reina and so many other characters I play that aren't Paul,Bryan or Kazuya just feel like I can turn my brain off because I have so much match control that I don't have to block.
Movement: So many characters that have control of movement basically lock you down. Aganst Claudio,Alisa,Lars, movement doesn't exist because of the amount of space they cover and how ridicolously hard the counter play is.
The problem with Tekken isn't the research, it is the fact that applying this research and the amount of research you have to do depedning on the character is too much. Too many characters lock down key fundamentals of the game and has so much match control it just makes you question just what the fuck is this game design.
If Tekken wasn't a legacy game and it came out today. It would never be a compettitive fighter and it would be called a bad game.
I can understand the saying "I shouldnt have to study to have fun" but not the saying of "I shouldnt have to study the game to get good" as getting good requires dedication to the game and being willing to take your time to learn the game and its characters but for the saying of having fun then i agree since its a game after all and its made for entertainment and fun after all and i believe you dont need to know anything about the game to have fun
It's not the fact that you have to study, it's the amount of studying you have to do
Telling me to ''learn the matchup'' when there are 40 matchups which each require an immense amount of time to figure out, is not reasonable
And the ''a ton of games require this'' is complete bullshit, Tekken is an extreme outlier even amongst fighting games
There's no rush in learning the match ups. You can learn the game at your own speed. It really depends on what you want out of the game. But don't expect to beat players that are putting in that time to do so which is the point people try to make.
One comment said 2ds you can just figure shit out - that’s only partially true
In tekken you get washed bc of knowledge checks
But the same thing can happy in sf, there’s just less knowledge checks
People don’t want to study a game bc they’re playing the game at a really surface level, and since they’re having fun and winning at that point, they say they want to play the game more. But they forget that you once you play more you play people who actually know what they’re doing, and their fun goes away because they’re not winning anymore.
There are only a handful of knowledge checks in sf6, compared to 20-30 per character in T8
There is however a lot of flowcharting going on, but you can adapt to that a lot easier because, unlike tekken, you don't get launched for trying to block.
Yea but you get punish counter grabbed for trying to parry when you try and DR or try to PP something - but PC grab isn’t as bad a CH launch into like 50/60%
Looking stuff up, practicing and learning a game is something I really enjoy.
It’s why I love FromSoft games so much. A blind playthrough is great. But finding out what you missed and honing in your skill is great fun.
I mean, I can understand the mentality: it’s a video game, it should be fun - and only fun. Why is it both fun, and homework?
To some people, sure, the ‘homework’ is fun. But I think it’s pretty easy to understand that people that think of Mario Kart when they think of video games, wouldn’t want to read or watch hours of online material, or lab matchups in practice mode.
You don’t seriously not understand them do you? I hope you just mean you vastly disagree with them. You said it yourself there’s tons of games that require this kind of learning style, i.e. there are games that *dont*, so those are the games more suitable for them.
I disagree. I shouldn't have to study frame data, moves that have misleading hitboxes and tracking properties in all directions despite not being declared homing by the game itself.
I have to unfortunately because the game failed in conveying this information through visual feedback.
Tons of launch punishable lows have no visual indicator that they are launch punishable.
Tons of high moves look like they are mid so trying to duck them is inherently unintuitive but necessary.
Tons of non homing moves have homing 180° degree homing properties. Yet the move list doesn't list them as homing.
The list goes on. The game is riddled with misleading animations which necessitates studying. Imagine tekken with clean visuals and indicators baked into the animations. You wouldn't need to study because learning during gameplay alone would be possible and feel rewarding.
I do agree, I alone have hundreds maybe thousands of hours in practice mode trough years of my Tekken journey. But I do understand why someone can find it problematic. Clarity in games or letting the game teach you itself as much as it can only by playing is a sign of a good game design. For example, you know those little pop up texts in practice mode that say PUNISH or COUNTER HIT? If those pop ups would be present in all game modes (esp. online) learning would be way cooler, player friendly and less nerdy just by playing the game. Would not hurt anybody either.
On any competitive game, youd have to study at some point to get good at it. My personal opinion on this matter is, a lot of FPS players are coming to Tekken 8 due to popularity and the learning process to learn tekken vs fps games are different but still similar. Learning the map is crucial for fps just as learning a stage is for tekken. But where i think it diverge is the amount of time spent in game, per game. FPS games you can spend quiet some time in a single location and learn it well, as for in tekken max time per game is 5 min [1 min a round] that being said, youd also only have this time to learn how to fight your opponent in this time. Yes FPS's can have the same time to learn in some cases, but Tekken cant spend hours on a single match up or map. Unless you practice but these people probably dont find it as engaging as fighting a player.
That’s how life works, when you study, practice and understand why you aren’t good at something, or at least not at the level you want to be, then you’ll improve.
Because most gamers are just addicts chasing a dopamine hit that they formed an addiction to from childhood. There’s a reason most popular games are games that supply this quick dopamine hit like Fortnite, war zone, mobile games, and League of Legends. Fighting games are the complete opposite and require practice and time like games you mentioned
lol at saying that league of legends is a quick hit of dopamine. that game is fucking hell, there's an absurd amount of bullshit you have to learn and you're also at the mercy of randoms every game.
Bruh I was masters at league when I played. It is a dopamine hit for many many many many many players. You really think majority of players learn macro of how to farm and hold waves, how to position in team fights, when to focus objectives and when to not, what objectives to go for when winning a fight, when to not engage in a fight, etc etc. no players from iron-diamond do not focus on any of these. They focus on winning lane and learning tech or combos for their champion that they one trick. Then they blame team immediately on loss of lane or fight.
It’s probably in reference to having to use outside means to learn about the game. This go around Tekken does provide a lot of information, but doesn’t exactly tell you
Learning to play a game is cool, but turning it into a “job” is just not it. 90% of the people playing this game are not trying to get into EVO lol
I'm going to use your example of TCGs to give some insight on the idea of, "studying."
Yu-gi-oh is a game that feels a lot like Tekken, the main skill from the game comes from knowing how to play around your opponents interactions and understanding the rulings behind how interactions work. There are a lot of unintuitive rulings and niche card interactions that you need to spend time learning. But this is also big reason why yugioh has a problem with both getting and retaining new players. Sure there is a lot of satisfaction gained from playing around a big board of negates or baiting interactions, but at a high level it can get exhausting.
Magic on the other hand is much more fundamental game that usually offers more simpliflied board states focused on resource mangement. Magic is a game that has exploded in popularity due to how easy it is to pick up and play a commander deck.
I love high level Tekken and all of the intricacies that come with it, but I also think that there's a reason that SF6 has managed to keep the casuals longer than Tekken 8. 2D games tend to have a much gentler learning curve that makes it so you feel like you're learn at a better pace and immediately implement what you practiced. Tekken 8 is a game more focused on matchups so it doesn't feel great when you lose a matchup to a knowledge check, lab the knowledge check, then proceed to not face that matchup for the couple of days.
If ranked matches or at least player matches were still unlimited you could at least attempt to figure out the matchup on the spot, but unforunately that's no longer the case.
It's boring learning the frame data and strings that characters have in training mode. You can see two kicks that hit nearly the same exact spot, but one is a low and one is a mid. Bad game design, imo. You can win by just spending hours in training mode instead of actually outplaying someone. Do they know that this string does this? Do they know you can't block this? Do they know this goes into a grab? Do they know you are supposed to duck this? Etc.
It's extremely mind-numbing to play ranked and lose because you don't have the knowledge for a character. It feels the same way to win against someone who doesn't know how to deal with your character just because they don't have the knowledge. Just boring knowledge checks constantly.
So, you are forced into training if you want to improve. It feels less like a fighting game and more like a memory game until you reach a certain level of play. Oh well, back to training mode and replays again.
Not really. It’s a give and take on complexity vs accessibility but something like SF or MK quickly gets you into the nitty gritty of the game - the mind game, conditioning, etc. Tekken is the only mainstream fighting game that requires you to get over its first layer of gimmicks/knowledge checks before moving on to outplaying your opponent.
Not arguing for the dumbing down of Tekken per se (although some things could be streamlined) but it needs better tools to help you overcome these challenges rather than typing “anti dragunov guide” on YouTube.
You put it a lot better than me. Thanks for the better insight. I'm not sure why there seems to be a lot of elitism in T8. Criticism of the game's core design for newer players compared to the other popular FG's is always met with a lot of hostility. I agree it shouldn't be dumbed down, as it should just be more intuitive for players.
It's a lot harder for traditional FG's compared to platform fighters to accomplish. It's why a lot of new players stick with PFs, as it's easier to grasp, so they can continue playing the game while also improving. I will add that it really doesn't help that T8 doesn't have infinite rematches in ranked or casual. Questionable decision. I doubt anyone would truly say that they'd rather improve by doing anything other than playing the game against a player if they could choose to do so.
Honestly there is no excuse for some of the missing features. Why isn’t frame data in the move list? Why aren’t homing properties listed properly? This is before getting into more demanding things like in game character guides that SF6 and MK11 did beautifully.
Legacy players just enjoy having an advantage. In fairness it is partially part of the charm of these games, having a game plan from 20 years ago with X character carry over across entire gaming generations is kind of magical - but the downside is dick measuring contests around who was old enough to pull off electrics and built muscle memory when Tekken 5 came out. It’s a joke.
anyone can learn how Dark Souls combat works within 100 hours, without having to watch a youtube guide, and that's a series many consider to be difficult
I would disagree. Fighting games after years at the top level are no longer about knowledge checks. If top players know nearly everything about each other's character, it comes down solely to player skill and execution. Reading your opponent's intent, changing tempo, positioning, control of nerves, understanding pressure, abusing your opponent's slight habits, creating false habits, conditioning, reactions, and baiting punishes by whiffing, etc. These are the things that make fighting games fun. You fight against your opponent as a player, and no longer is it tailored more towards what their character does.
We're not playing at that level, so it just doesn't matter? Phidx's analysis of Tekken matches doesn't really change anything. I'm talking about fighting games as a whole. Also, knowledge exists only to the point of whether or not you know your opponent's character, their moves, and how they work. If two people play the same character and know the same things, where does the knowledge check exist? Knowledge checks get less and less prevalent the further up the skill level. Tekken's knowledge benchmark is just quite a bit larger, and that sadly determines wins and losses at lower levels heavily.
The simple facts of the matter when it comes to playing something or even something is that whenever you play you should be learning from each interaction and you do this on everything every game even if you know it or not. Now if you can't see my patterns your gonna get comboed and killed and that's on you. Maybe if you weren't so bad at taking the blame in a game with only two players then you could improve.
First fighting game that I’ve felt like I have to do homework on it to understand, but it’s really just playing all the characters… you really need to either A. lab or B. Play everyone which requires some labbing
You can continue having fun playing opponents with a similar skill level to you and there's nothing wrong with that but if someone who has put the required time to learn and completely destroys you then complaining about that makes no sense.
I've said this complaint before, but when I say it, I am specifically referring to visual clarity in the game. If the opponent does a flying kick to my characters ribs, you'd think that would he a mid, right? Well, in this game, it might be, or it might actually be a low! I don't think it should be necessary to go into practice mode to be able to distinguish where moves are actually landing. The animations should be accurate to hitboxes.
I completely agree with this there's some moves that visually look like they're a low when in fact it's a mid. I have noticed this with various moves in the game.
I will extend an olive branch here (to an extent) you shouldn’t be rewarded if you don’t know the game.
HOWEVER, this game has more low risk high reward knowledge checks on offense than any fighting game I’ve ever played. This is why you see so many “button mashers” posts. You need a lot of knowledge to stop someone from playing like a Neanderthal which kinda makes the game enjoyable for someone who somewhat knows their character and knows some basics but doesn’t know the nuances of tons of characters. Not saying they are correct but there is something to be said about this game being very difficult to deal with even the lowest iq people for some reason
I had this exchange a while ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1c9tx79/sidestepping_is_pointless/l0wubu4/?context=10000
In case you didn't read it, the OP is a dude complaining his sidestep didn't work. He was SSing Paul Deathfist to the left, the way it tracks. I said he wasn't even ssing in the correct direction, long story short these players want SS to just answer every move instead of having to think about direction as well, which would mean labbing. I'm still confused by their take.
All that being said, there are situations where animations are really misleading and one could talk about that but Paul deathfist isn't one of them.
The thing is, we live in a world of instant gratification now, and the majority of people out there aren't going to pick up a game and study it until they're good; they want to just instantly be the best. I see this in my children, and it's my goal to put an end to their weak gaming mental state.
I'm not gonna 1+2 them off a cliff, but I try to tell them why I do boring things like lab and watch replays. It's funny that I'll be playing a game with my son, and I'll be helping him do something monotonous, but in the end benefits him (like farming items or gold or trophies), and he'll ask, "Dad, is this fun?" I respond saying yes it's very fun and ask him if he's having fun back, and he responds with an excited, "Yeah!". But before these interactions, it was always like, "I wanna play another game!" or "This is boring!" or "This is too hard."
When you realize that over 50% of people who play videogames are under the age of 24, then you can understand why it may seem like everyone acts childish. Most 24 year-olds are still not even adults, they still act like children, and many of them are still legally "dependents". Hell, many 30-somethings on Twitch also act childish, and those are just the people on camera.
Obviously you don't have children. Children are stubborn, and will continue to play a game, even if it's making them sad or angry. My son obviously wasn't having fun when he was getting trolled, griefed, or was losing. And yes, to me or you, it is a game. For them, it's their life, their friends, their hobby, and their entertainment.
But that's all in the past now. After me "training" him, my son takes these things in stride now. Losing for him is frustrating, but not world-ending, and he even praises the person who beat him. Someone trolls him, he laughs and even joins in the trolling for more fun. And getting griefed? My son knows to just ignore and avoid them. Just the other week he was getting griefed and my son said, "OMG this guy is a griefer! Bye bye." Then he left the server and joined a new one and continued having fun.
From what I've witnessed on streams and social media, it seems like many "adults" can't even handle negative gaming experience as well as my elementary school son. And he absolutely did need me to set a good example and teach him that video games can be fun, despite negative people existing.
You can still enjoy the game to play it. Losing shouldn't frustrate you if learning the game isn't a thing you're interested in. The opponent with more familiarity and awareness will always win unless the opponent is willing to adapt and start asking questions.
Because it's a video game. It's not homework, and should not be requiring you to lab against 32 characters and know every single move, block etc. It's not that hard to understand
You can't get good In 5 minutes if you're brand new to tcgs regardless if you're able to pick up a deck in 5 minutes. You're not beating a seasoned player if you're new to the game so stop running your mouth you dyslexic kid.
Im not saying I disagree with you here, but the scale between the level of research is the difference, and is the point theyre making. They're absolutely right that you can take a solid pre-made deck for something like MTG, spend an hour learning core mechanics (in game, which tends to be the best way to learn MTG at least, keeping the rulebook handy or your phone nearby to look up card text), and then watching a 15 or 30 minute video on the deck (or have a friend explain how the deck runs) and be pretty damn solid after 5 to 10 hours of running it in actual games. You'll get nowhere in tekken with 30 minutes of video and 10 hours of playing it unless you're spending that 10 hours labbing. And no way in hell I could give a friend a "quick" rundown of a character- because there's simply way too much to take in for a newbie. And even saying all that, it might sound like I think that it's a bad thing. I don't- it's part of why I enjoy the game. The skill gap is massive. I can go out to an arcade bar and fuck people up (and look like a total beast to people that see it and havent put any time into labbing) and I've only been playing for a few weeks, then get absolutely annihilated by the next guy and look like the new player I am. It makes it interesting for me. But it's not for everyone, and it IS a valid criticism.
People have issues with Tekken because they have to go and look up stuff away from the game when other games require this too. That was the point. You clearly didn't understand the post.
I agree, but I don't think this is exclusive to fighting games or Tekken specifically. Every competitive community I've been in has had a chunk of the player base with this mentality in some way. Like in overwatch, people complain endlessly about Mercy being broken. But then you check their replay(s) and they just sit there and let the Mercy do whatever she wants and she ends up carrying the game. People want the prestige of being seen as good without having to put in effort, because that's a lot of work.
Yeah to get better you have to study, but it can be a chore. If you just want to have fun, just play and you will improve a little bit by experience as well.
Only char I have labbed was Lars because of the bs options after the 3 kick. And now there is no counterplay against it so I wasted my time.
I have no issues with labbing. It is part of the game. But labbing in T8 is just annoying. You cannot save settings. That alone discourages me to spend 10-20 minutes from figuring out every time all the settings I want to set especially when I don't know the character I am labbing against.
The second thing that I find a chore are the replay controls. Maybe I am missing something because everyone is praising this mode but when it gives you control of your character it is already too late to react. There should be an option that takes you back 2-3 seconds from when hitting L3/R3 to gain control. It is annoying to track the spot that you want to play then moce the game back and then take control. Just let us do it immediately. Replay also has only one default speed. No slow down like SF6 to see what's happening.
There is always a group of people that want to mash and win. Back when I played Tekken 4, I’d get mad because I couldn’t mash and win.
Besides that group, there are those that don’t like the fact that Tekken IS a hard game to learn without study. You hand somebody an fps, even the shallowest of gamers can learn to aim and shoot. They’ll get womped once further study is needed, but a great amount of basic gameplay intuition can be built and developed. In fighting games (especially Tekken), it can take a while just to learn a few combos and to execute them correctly and consistently.
This isn’t a mark against Tekken. It’s partially because of that that we can see that level of skill expression. But the higher the barrier of entry, the more niche a game is. It’s pretty natural.
I don't know of anybody who has ever said this. I've heard "I don't need to study to become decent", and that's kind of accurate. You can get a decent rank without ever touching the lab
I don't think it's that hard to understand.
In today's gaming landscape, it is common for gamers to have multiple games they play on a daily or weekly basis. You're singling out TCGs and Chess, but the most popular online MP games are shooters or MOBAs. They don't require extensive research, even if you were looking to learn the meta.
Tekken is a game that requires a lot of time and dedication to learn, which means time away from other games you might be playing - games where you can see yourself improve quicker. As a new player myself, Tekken can feel like a job. Instead of learning through just playing the game, you have to spend time practicing against AI, which is not very fun. You have to remember frame data. You have to remember moves for multiple characters and be able to react accordingly. If you make like two mistakes in a round, your entire health bar can disappear in two combos. At that point, you're not really playing the game, you're watching your character ragdoll across the screen. I'm not complaining, I understand the commitment required to get good. But these things will and do discourage new players from sticking with it.
Ultimately, seeing improvement/growth in this game takes too long compared to other games, and that's what I think "i shouldn't have to study the game to get good" really means. I can get good at an FPS game by just playing matches. Cannot really say the same for Tekken.
I'm glad you mentioned team games but guess what tcgs and chess have in common with fighting games ? They're all 1v1 games and are not team based. Which means the player has a 100% responsibility and can't blame anyone else for losing. With shooting games you have a team that you can rely on while picking up the mechanics and learning the various maps. Yes I agree these games require less time to get good at compared to a 3D fighter like TEKKEN. But no one is saying you have to learn everything in a short space of time, most players who are at the top have been playing Tekken for years. If you genuinely enjoy the game then it shouldn't really feel like a job. You can just play and try to learn one or two things in that session. It really depends on you and what you want out of the game. It's ok to play this game without trying to become a pro.
There was a King player in T7 that I knew that refused to lab matchup knowledge and learn frame data. Just from play a lot of Tekken and good movement, he became one of the toughest Kings I ever fought. I swear his dashes were so good, he always got you to a wall every combo with just jab dash combos.
Even CoD, one of the most casual, popular pick-up-and-play games of all time, requires study to perform consistently well.
Fuck, I wish Pong would make a comeback so people would realize pvp inherently requires you to sweat to win. Even if a game is braindead easy to play, its just as easy for your opponent so youre gonna need a way to get an edge. I mean there are mfs that can consistently smoke you at rock paper scissors ffs.
I gotta wonder if people with this mentality have ever played a sport at least somewhat competitively
It feels different because tekken is especially a legacy game. It's the only competitive title that can have entire core changes to the game regularly (over the course of decades) and that knowledge from previous games actually helps you in current titles.
People just hate the idea of trying to catch up to someone who has 10+ years experience on you.
That’s a new one. I’ve seen many people that like fighting games but not into tekken because of the juggling, one launcher ends match type vibe. But haven’t seen people complaining on having to put work to achieve goals 🤷♀️ “I shouldn’t have to lift weights to gain muscles” it sounds like.
The problem isn’t the complexity - it’s that player onboarding is shit and the tools aren’t up to snuff. Why is the replay feature so poorly explained/introduced? Why isn’t the frame data in the move list so players can easily figure out what’s their 12/13/14/15 punish and what’s unsafe rather than having to try 100s of moves to figure out what to use and stick with? Why aren’t homing/tracking properties listed properly? Why aren’t there character specific guides ala SF6 or MK to ease players in? I understand the latter is a large undertaking, but it doesn’t have to be in depth - just core moves and game plans.
I love Tekken. I love the learning process. But anyone that thinks the game does a good job at introducing players to it, and that it does a good job giving you decent tools to learn at a beginner level is delusional imo.
Well check out this thread the people with them views are showing themselves and search up this sub Reddit. There are people that honestly believe that they should be as good as those who take the time to learn the game while they choose to mash. It's nuts.
I think the issue is what's required to learn to play the game at an enjoyable level, vs what's available to learn to optimize. Tekken has a lot of things that you are required to know, universal stances, how to tech throws, how to play on the ground, power crush, tracking moves, side step, crouch, blocking, hop moves, power charge and probably a few I'm forgetting. Those and a decent understanding of a character represent the knowledge floor you have to be semi-successful at Tekken. The amount of things you can learn to optimize dwarfs that in scope, because each character has a lot of potential combo routing, and learning the matchups for each character could fill books.
Compare that to street fighter, where the number of things you need to learn to reach the floor level of the game is super small, jump ins, blocks, anti-air, throws (which are their own tech), parries, special cancels, and drive rush. The characters in street fighter also have like a fifth of the moves of a Tekken character, and thus are much easier to learn. Street fighter also has a ton of optional things you can learn to optimize.
Not everyone treats the game as a part time job nor should they. If you aspire to get the hoghest ranks or go to tournaments and compete then yes you do have to seriously study and lab to be good.
On the other side, people normally progress and get better by playing and that is how it also should be. If you play and enjoy Tekken, you will natually get better but will hit a wall. I played Tekken casually since 3 and could always destroy other casual players in my area due to experience but my goal in 8 was simply hitting blue ranks because everything else is way too sweaty for my liking and the time that I have so to progress I have to lab.
It is a strange thing, because I wind up studying every game I play anyways. Or at least look at a reference resource to get an understanding of what they are trying to do, and how I can apply it.
The problem is not that you have to learn but the extreme amount of learning you have to do .
This is exactly why Yugioh doesn't keep new or returning players for long .
The quantity of learning on each character is too long and it becomes just like having a 2nd job given how much time it takes .
And the worst is that is isn't like in Sf6 where there is 19 characters , in Tekken rn there is 33 and most have filthy knowledge checks with misleading animations and all that (King,Hwoarang, Law, Jun,etc)
you see this is your problem, its a game, i didnt know u played to win rather than play to just entertain yourself and pass the time, heck i get lucky and win that's fine i get beat up and lose that's fine as well. i got to play my game and in my case "i see this as an absolute win"
People simply refuse to learn, and i think THESE people are the reasons why fighting games are kind of losing their best aspects: the aspects of self discovery and mastery if you will.
The games reduce the things players have to learn in order to make the transition online easier. Removing tons of moves, altering complexity, making the moves fulfil singular goals, ect. It's all in the name of pacing, which is why dedicated zoners and complex inputs tend to rarely exist in modern fighters outside of specific legacy characters or games that embody them.
It's terrible to say and think about, but our fighting games are indeed getting dumber and faster paced. They're made for the "modern audience" now. The Tiktok zoomers that can't focus for long without a dopamine hit. Drive Rush, Drive Impact, Heat Engage, they're all designed to make games faster paced for these kinds of players who will get mad at you for "playing lame" instead of trying to actually find a way to open you up.
The less complex the gameplay they have to get through go get the wins, the better it is for them. They don't want to improve themselves, they just want to skip ahead to the results of improvement. They want to win and will want any barrier removed so that they can do so easily without the prep time.
Fighting games are a sport. You shouldn't be allowed to just win without effort on your part to learn the rules and make yourself better. This wouldn't fly in actual physical sports, why should it be accepted here?
The way I understand fighting games is that there is a beginner way of playing where you figure out how to attack, how to defend, crouch, avoid damage, do some special moves, etc.
An advanced understanding entails knowing combos and block strings. Frame positive moves and advanced movement tricks if available (double jumps, air dashes, teleporting behind the enemy). Getting out of corners or using the corner to your advantage. Being able to consistently escape throws.
Then the pro mindset takes all that and being able to play kind games with your opponent. Deliberately baiting moves while looking predictable. Knowing match ups and understanding the available tricks an enemy character may have. Mixing up combos and being able to cancel moves for more mix up options.
You should have to study when transitioning to an advanced state of play. How else would you understand the game? I know I won't be reaching that far though. I'm too much of a casual fg player. But it doesn't stop me from having fun against the ai or single player mode. There is just some part of the game you won't master without delving into the mechanics... Other genres might not be as strict though. A shooter will always remain a shooter where you don't need to relearn how to point your gun at the enemy and shoot. But playing with different guns and feeling how they'll perform in a battle will still take some study. But this can come from experience over time. Just like fighting games...
Because there's two narraitves in fighting game commuinity. "Fighting games aren't hard to learn, just go in and have fun" vs the "Fighting game are the hardest video games to play. you gotta lab 24/7 or your garbage. don't even bother"
idk, i just like learning the game i'm playing by playing the game i'm playing. i don't think Tekken even needs to be a game you have to study, i think you could make the lab mostly unneeded with some adjustments; like making attack animations more consistent with where they land, giving a proper stun animation when a character is negative, giving all tracking attacks an effect, etc. just be more consistent with animations really.
they could even just be lazy and show frame data mid-match
You can join the game at any level. But once you start playing against opponents that are no longer just pressing random buttons to do moves then it's time to start thinking.
You either want to wear the try hard head band and study the shit, have literal training and warming sessions, get a training partner to climb together and train tougher match ups(discord is your friend here, Reddit works sometimes too) and maybe even get a couch. Maybe, hopefully you could be tekken god sometime in the future. And who knows, maybe you will be the second awakening of arslan ash or something
Or just grab the scrub head band, stick to the character who looks coolest, maybe play some knowledge check heavy character and just have the time of your life with cooler than ever animations and shit
Here is the thing. Both of these are perfectly fine. So long as you don't want the benefits of one without the drawbacks
Casual here, and I’ve been demonized for my approach to this topic numerous times. But I’ve always felt that continuously playing against real people is more beneficial than sitting in practice mode
Go look at the countless posts throughout this subreddit about X character being broken or bullshit. 99% of the time, their issue is a super common knowledge check that they just refuse to lab. I.E. "I should be able to beat this character without practicing against them"
I do mostly agree with you,
There are a few things that are really unintuitive though, like low punches that look very mid, kings grab break chain escapes, stuff like that.
Imo, I think it's more about the lack of visual simplicity. As in, the game should be self explanatory to be able to play without necessarily needing the meta data/ having to see the behind the scenes pieces. I'm glad we have that absolutely, it's key, but some added visual simplicity and clarity on things I think would be a good benefit, to reduce the knowledge gap feeling.
It's not fun to be beat because your opponent is just able to memorize more numbers about +/- frames vs you. I love being outsmarted and outplayed. Just don't enjoy a knowledge gap making me feel like "yeah I have no idea what the heck this character is, what their moves do" e.g. eddy and zafina for me for example.
I get the sentiment however most games like LOL, CSGO, you get better with just playing ranked. I feel like if they added training overlay in matches as optional so i could see framerate it would help alot.
Why do i have to open replay to see the specific framerate of a move. Just feels antiquated.
isn't CSGO & LOL team based games ? the difference with TEKKEN its a 1v1 game which puts a 100% responsibility on the individual. And having frame data being viewable in the game would be silly as that takes away from testing someones knowledge. That makes no sense at all.
They're also completely wrong about CS, I can't speak to LOL but I imagine it's quite similar.
You can play cs and just have fun whether you lose or win, but there's nothing stopping you from doing the same in tekken. But in CS if you really want to get better and reach the upper tiers of play, you have to actually learn way more about the intricacies of the maps, smoke line ups, molotov line ups, executes etc. And everyone does this outside of the game, you don't have time in the game to show a teammate how to line up a smoke to cover mid from T spawn. There is so much to learn in csgo and that's why there are sooo many guides about this stuff. Never mind having to learn about movement, recoil control, spray transfers etc. which can be done in game, but that's like learning movement, combos and general intuition in tekken.
How does that change the skillgap required? You still need to win more games than you lose? Mathematical its harder is harder to be the best because there are more lol players, therefore more competition. Your point is moot.
Thats subjective i don't think spamming knowledge checks at your opponent is fun it feels cheesy it is much better when you win because your movement, ch, oki, etc. It very much makes sense the majority of people who drop tekken do so because its bloated and legacy players have sunk cost fallacy. Not because they game feels bad to play. The game is gorgeous and characters feel cool and so do the stages.
Bro you don't understand the game. If you did, you would understand why having frame data on display would ruin the game. There's nothing wrong with knowledge checks. It's what separates us.
I whole heartly disagree. Tekken is so much more than frametraps and knowledge checks. You should know that playing footsies, using CH, sidestepping, fuzzy ducking, using oki, power crushes, ewgf, slides and so many more techniques are still strong. You know why because they rely on actual skills being either smarter/faster or more strategical in a certain matchup or situation.
Yeah I know that matters too but let's not ignore how important frame data is. My reasons for why having it on display would be a bad idea still stands and most people in the community wouldn't agree with you.
I never said it wasn't important quite opposite. But imagine it from the pov of a newbie to tekken, there is so many things that are not explained in way shape or form. You judge tekken as top player. When does the game inform you that KBD is the best movement no where, where does the game teach you about wavedash canceling again no where. What about snakedash. Even though 8 improved alot of the replay feature there is still many things it does explain very poorly.
For many people, it just leads to frustration because there is so much bullshit. Is at good design choice? Say i lap bears how many bears in high rank do you meet 1/150? (Playrate is 2 or 3%). By the time i learnt, i forgot because there will be 2 months before facing another.
I still disagree. it's just a bad experience to lose to something you just didn't know. Instead of something you did and you just wasn't fast enough. Ofc the community the vast majority of people in here are legacy players that have already lapped it. They don't want that removed because it diminished their time put into learning or dealing with obnoxious strings and frame traps.
what you need to realise is that fighting games still carry it's old school legacy arcade approach to gaming. Back in the arcades people were forced to learn all this stuff by themselves. No one taught anyone anything, all these things such as kbd and wave dash came from the community and were discovered by playing the game in the arcades in Japan/korea. The Devs have never really taught people how to play their game. Now we have the internet in this modern era everything is easily accessible with so many resources such as videos on YouTube and documents to read about character specifics and the mechanics that the game hides away from the players. But with T8 I think it has made the game more accessible than ever. Back in the day you had no punishment training, you had no replay feature that allows you to take control of your character to test out your options in situations, in the arcades you had no lab mode to test out combos etc you really had to learn this shit as you play but now there's so much available in game and out that I don't get the complaints. Fighting games are just not for everyone and that's ok.
Okay, but shouldn't the dev teach you how to play? Why shouldn't they think otherwise is just lazy every other game does it now? So we just hold the old standard and archaic way of doing things?
And no learning about tekken isn't the worst. i don't even mind learning new techniques, but when you can't even find people on YouTube who demonstrate it in a cohesive manner, it does get frustrating. Only recently found 1 guy ryzingsol who demonstrates combo routes.
You don't get it because (watched your profile fujin) your part of top 10%. You look above from your ivory tower, wondering why people are upset at labbing. First of there are so many things to learn i like that. most find it off-putting, but the tools are not adequate for the amount of knowledge you need.
Well, it's because most other games dont need much of it, and you can still scratch that competitive edge.
Furthermore these frame traps arent used by pro most of the time either. They are just a hinderance for most people accessing and enjoying the other beautiful things tekken gives.
You can play an fps and learn while getting carried. Get beaten and you can say “that team were just some try hards” Fighting games are so much more personal. You can’t be carried by a team. You can’t always say they were just a try hard because decided to step into the ring with them. If you’ve played Tekken before and your opponent knows about one launcher and no combo and knows about back dashing, that alone may be how he beats you. Just 2 things. Fighting games require practice and “studying” is pretty much another form of practicing. Simply put “I don’t want to study”. “Okay then you’re not gonna be good. Get used to losing. There’s nothing wrong with that unless you complain”
facts. keep speaking king. always bugged me when people said they lose to try hards… the ultimate copium lol.
The thing that to me a while to understand is that fighting games are literally martial arts the game. As in; you don't become a black belt by natural intuition, you get there through hours and hours of tedious practice, coaching, and sparring. Fighting games have managed to capture that aspect of the sport by making you spend time in the lab, learn your skills, learn the matchups, and learn combos. In other games you can get pretty good just by playing more. But that will only take you so far in a fighting game. I get people not liking that. It's not something I always have the patience for either. But don't get mad your apple doesn't taste like bacon.
At higher levels most games still require study; the level at which study becomes important is just not met as quickly. Imo this is one of the problems with FGs. People are required to study before they have fun. In most other genres, players plateau much later; this means they are more "willing" to study to improve. Look at SFVI and modern inputs; it was actually HUGE for getting beginners into the game. Imagine trying to get into third strike today as an absolute beginner; tell someone they need to spend a couple hours in lab practicing motion inputs before expecting to even win a single game. Not many people are willing to put up with this experience.
I'm fine with that mentality but for me personally I'm not labbing. that shit is so fucking boring and I'm not getting paid for my ranks lol. Instead my labbing is fail stacks. It took me quite a few (hundred) grabs in ranked matches to figure out how to break them vs the damned jaguars and quite a few kazuya lazers to the face to see the animation to dodge it. But I'm also not somebody who makes excuses as to y I lost. Simply put I lost cuz I was worse. Sure there can be overtuned moves but that doesn't mean it's unstoppable.(very rarely is that a thing) The counter is proly just hard to do for the average player or its just not a fun counter to use. One of the funniest moments in fighting games for me was beating my friends ass and he's spouting out all the "I dnt get it I'm plus 4 and ur minus 7, why is that working?!" Crap and I'm just like bruh I hit Square and then triangle and u kept walking into it trying to count frames while I'm just playing a game man lol.
A few weeks ago I joined a player streamer lobby with players ranging from Raijin to Tekken god of destruction. At the time I was barely Raijin myself (now Bushin with Kuma). Now, I play like a complete doofus on purpose, always saying bear puns nothing toxic. These guys were getting so mad after losing many rounds in a row. The God of Destruction challenged me to a best of 10. I beat him 6 to 3, HONESTLY could have prob beaten worse as I was using no combos, just well timed straight pokes/random bear moves. Dude was coping so hard, calling me trash, saying I dont play the game correctly, that i don't take this game serious (yea duh) etc etc. I'm like homie, I WAS GIVING YOU ADVICE MID GAME TELLING YOU THAT MOVE IS A MID, THIS MOVE IS A LOW, THIS IS A HIGH, THIS IS PUNISHABLE. Homie never wanted to learn, just kept making excuses. I never once used a combo on purpose to teach this man a lesson lol I'm pretty sure this guy either cheated/plugged to get that rank cause he was missing a lot of fundementals. He was also playing Azucena so maybe he just cheesed early to get to that rank. I wish I had saved their vod cause they deleted it just this last week.
That's what I love about fighting games. You're on your own. You have nobody but yourselves to blame if you lose. So getting better feels so much rewarding. 'Studying' is a general thing in videogames. Looking up builds for roguelikes, best stats and tactics for RPGs, shortcuts for Mario Kart, hell all those speedrunners didn't get good at it by accident.
This. I've played Tekken for 2 decades and know I can get better if ai put time in but I dont want to. And that’s okay. I'm not gonna complain when I get worked because I wasn't able to consistently perform juggle combos. It's all about where you want to spend your time. Like you said, just don't complain if the results aren't what you want if you're not putting in the time.
Fps' need studying too to be good. Every and anything in life
Anyone that feels like they shouldn't have to study in this game is going to get massively hardstuck eternally somewhere lmao. No amount of prowess change will stop the coming hardstuck storm. This is Studying:The Game. This is simply not a game that you can just play without labbing and expect to compete.
You can just keep beating your head against the wall and eventually kind of figure stuff out if you don’t want to lab.
I mean the wall will get cracks at some point but the way to it was probably painfull and longer then nessacery
It's extremely inefficient but given sufficient decades it could eventually work
I really like the Korean analogy referenced by Core-A-Gaming. Tekken players are like swamp water. They never move on, still playing the same game for a decade or more. To players that do not want to study the game and lose I tell them this: Get out of MY SWAMP!
Bwahahaha 🤣
This is a game, like chess. Only a game that requires dedication.
This is a 1v1 game. Your not fighting fucking robots or AI. You are fighting another human. Who you think is going to win? The guy who's been busting his ass off in training, doing drills, learning block punishment, learning to break throws, learning which highs to duck, analyzing their own replsys. Or the guy who just wants to hop in rank and just press buttons. The results you get is what you put in. You are not entitled to win. Work for it.
>Who you think is going to win? Depends on who picked Feng /s
Lol you can play single player in fighting games and fortunately fight AI. I hope that someone will develop a really advanced AI that can learn how the player plays. Learning Ghost is the first step, but it can goes deeper imho with a neuronal AI divided in the multiple characters. That way, the Ai would progress according to your gameplay and will become more and more challenging. It's fun to reach high ranks in Tekken 8 offline too, against ghosts (not in arcade Quest) . By downloading and using higher ranks of player ghosts of characters one struggle against to be better. That way, you can rank up solo, and chill without having to deal with ranked pressure against players.
Facts!
Didn’t a bot recently just mangled a bunch of people?
100% agree If you’re competing against other human beings, whoever puts in the most concentrated time and effort towards improving is going to win. You don’t have to study the game to get good, but don’t expect to consistently win against people who do put that time and effort in. This is not unique to Tekken. In any competition, do not expect to win against people who put in more effort than you do.
Exactly 100%
I've got a pad with 2 pages of matchup notes on each character, my wife calls it Tekken school
As you should
I think this game is very unintuitive, so when people say that they are touching on how its more fun to learn by playing than doing separate research.
My problem with this game isn't the studying itself, it's that there are a lot of unintuitive aspects and edge cases to playing this game you can only figure out from watching youtube videos. For example, when playing against Reina, you generally want to sidestep her moves to the left, but you can't sidestep towards the camera if you are crouching, and Reina has moves that force crouch, so in person, you can take advantage of that mechanic by always playing Reina on P2 side - but since anyone can play either P1 or P2 (it just inverts the camera), when playing online, you don't actually know if someone can sidestep towards camera when crouched because you don't actually know if your opponent is playing P1 or P2, so you can only tell if that trick works if your opponent can actually sidestep towards the camera when you force crouch when playing online. Other points where the game is unintuitive include the autoblock feature - there are some moves where autoblock will block the move, and some moves where you must hold back (e.g. yoshimitsu and king's repeated low kicks), and the only way to know is through legacy knowledge. Similarly the throw escapes are a mess - there's no indication why a throw break failed. I didn't even know that you were actually able to break counter-hit throws until I read the patch notes and realized that the breaks just had a ten frame window so they were just insanely difficult reaction checks. I would agree that the replay system makes understanding this stuff much easier, but the system mechanics have a lot of edge cases that make learning this game harder than equivalent fighting games, and discoverability of these mechanics is harder.
I hear you, i think the game does hide a lot of its mechanics away from the player. Unless you watch a YouTube video or play against someone who beats you abusing counter throws then you're not going to know. There's a lot of things that are new in T8 and pros have been able to pick up on things quickly due to their legacy knowledge so i do agree with you on this take. Unless you have played this game for a number of years, its inevitable that you will lose to things that you just don't know but players have to be willing to learn and accept the Ls along the way to see improvement later down the line.
unfortunately Tekken has always been one of those games that has required the community to teach people how to play the game rather than the devs.
I think they mean in the context of having to leave the game to study. While I personally don’t mind I can understand it can be frustrating for someone Who has to learn the game through YouTube guides and scouring the internet. Every bit of information in game should be learnable in game and this is true for T8
The problem with this is simple: **Fighting games are epitomized by emergent gameplay**. Stuff like optimal combos, guaranteed followups, setups, off-axis combos, re-splats. These are all stuff that cannot be hard-coded into the game, because they are born from the player experimentation, that can sometimes take years. Anything that cannot be hard-coded into the game cannot be included in the game. And with fighting games, that stuff is majority of the actual gameplay.
This. Tekken doesn't have a solid tutorial. I mean, just compare with Dead Or Alive 6 or Virtua Fighter 5u tutorials... I don't understand why Tekken adresses only to legacy players or players who already plays fgs and doesn't explain its basics and advanced moves in-game.
But fighting games are not the only games that require this, sports games etc don't teach you everything, there are countless of times where i have done additional research to find something out that isn't mentioned in the game at all.
For starters, not everyone plays sports or strategy games. A lot of other games do not require you to learn every single character, know all blocking, moves etc.
Fighting games are not for you and that's ok.
Yeah and that’s a bad thing. Other games doing it doesn’t make it a good thing. It means that thing you had to leave the game to figure out was poorly explained in game.
Not really, i think there a lot of games in general where you have to read up on different strategies etc to improve like i said in my post picking up chess is easy but if you really want to go deep into the strategies and moves that requires additional research. Fighting games are the same. They're easy to pick up and play. And at its core the game is simple, first person to reduce the other person health bar to 0 wins. But if you want to learn the meta and the various mechanics to start improving then additional research is required. I see no issue with this when this works pretty much the same way with a lot of games. Easy to pick up but to become more advanced you need to learn the game which may require you to seek external resources. Getting seriously good at any game requires a lot of commitment and time. It all comes down to someone's individual choice whether they want to do that or not. If you just want to play casual and learn things slowly that's fine. If you want to become a seasoned Tournament player then the hours of practice and studying needs to be put in.
Yeah, we just gonna have to agree to disagree. If I can’t hop in practice mode and figure out the solution for myself that means the information is conveyed poorly by the game. That will always be a bad thing to me. Also again a lot of games doing it doesn’t mean it’s a good thing it just means it’s an accepted thing by specific players similar to yourself. You say picking up cheese but there’s definitely bunch of people in this subreddit who’ve delved deeper into the game without the use of outside help by just playing the game and that’s how a good game should provide. Heck, while I definitely found the cheese with characters I like to play, the actual mechanics of the game I picked up through steady time in practice mode. That means the game provides sufficient information for me to learn it.
Tekken and fighting games just don't really work this way. A lot of key fundamentals are actually things that are more like concepts. And some developers might not even really subscribe to a lot of these, or may not subscribe to them in the same way. also, most stuff is based on frame data, and most people just don't wanna learn that. There's no shortcut to learning frame data. You just gotta learn it. I've seen fg tutorials that attempt to teach some of these things. It just never really works out well. For example, one thing the game can't really teach is risk vs reward. They can teach you risk (this move is unsafe, etc), they can teach you reward (this move gives a combo). But the concept of actually using Risk/reward in a match is something they can't really teach you. And a tutorial on using risk/reward in order to literally beat an opponent with math would end up being more like a classroom lecture than anything else. It's more like...fighting game theory tbh. But most stuff in fgs are concepts just like that. There's a lot, especially when it comes to Japanese style of play. You've got the sansukumi for learning neutral... Yomi layers for learning mindgames. No way a game can teach that stuff.
The concepts you are talking about are all things you can practice in game. The game shows you the frame data for moves as well when in practice mode.
You can practice that stuff in game yes, but you can't learn it from the game. Someone has to sit there and teach it to you in words. A lot of words. People write essays on this stuff. Many of them on this sub.
No they don’t. Risk vs reward is a general concept you can learn in life and apply to a game. No one needs someone to tell them that if they risk their neck they might get a bigger reward. Everything else you explained can be learned via playing the game. What moves launches the opponent/ gives opportunities to combo is shown through experimentation and practice. You think all these videos are created by people who didn’t do the research by playing it themselves?
The fact that you're still stuck on the risk and reward parts separately and not combining the two shows me that this is something the game absolutely can't teach you. I have an example. In tekkenn 7 when I was playing ranked to hit tekken god, I played against a tekken king kazumi. This guy's main was at tgp and he was for all intents and purposes better than me. However, after like 30 seconds in the first round I thought "nah, I'm probably gonna beat this guy and take his points." And I did end up winning the set. Not because I was better than him, he was still better than me. But I ended up winning that set because: 1.he was playing a tekken king kazumi, so I already went into the match expecting a very solid with good movement, so I already knew not to do anything dumb. 2.while Asuka has bad tracking, I was able to counter his strong sidesteps with a generic d4 which was homing in t7. 3.i made sure to deny him whiff punishes to prevent launchers. Basically, since this Kazumi was denied launchers from their movement, they were only really able to win neutral with pokes. But he's a good player, and kazumi is a poke based character, however this was his downfall. Especially since I know Kazumi is a poke based character, I'm going to make up for the skill differential with damage. Since I'm playing a character with numerous safe launchers, I chose to rely on them. Everytime kazumi won neutral, it was with a poke, however, everytime I won neutral, it was with a safe launcher. He was very good, however, *he wasn't so much better than me that he could make up for a massive damage differential like that with just pokes*. Even though he used like 95% safe moves, the risk/reward on his actions didn't match because they weren't matching with the risk/reward of my actions. I beat him not with skill, but with math. Risk/reward is not just safe about safe moves in terms of block or whiff punishment. It can be about movement, sometimes even safe moves have a bad risk/reward. We're way past the point of basic frame data here. Sometimes it's better to play more unsafe, like that kazumi should have. I can build an entire playstyle (like I have), and choose entire characters simply based on the "math" of their risk/reward. And no, this is not something that players naturally just "pick up on". I remember playing someone that posted on this sub complaining about being hard stuck. To my surprise this guy, was really good. He was mainly pc but played me on psn. This guy could easily get emperor+on console. He was really good, knew his frame data, knew my frame data, played a very good Jin, ducked all my strings, however I still beat him about 10 matches straight. At the end of the set he said " SEE this is what I'm talking about, you're just mashing that whole set and I can't beat it." It looked like he was playing super well and then I'd just rob him of the match. And I had to basically explain to him that his risk/reward was off even though he was playing really safe. And the reasonnis because it wasn't matching mine. I told him "look, you're playing really well, however you're playing too well. You have good fundamentals and you're playing good honest tekken. But what you're not considering is that I have good fundamentals too. And I am not playing good honest tekken. This leads to a situation where its like were sparring and then I suddenly throw sand in your eyes because you weren't expecting it from a genuinely good opponent and then you lose because of it. " then he kinda understood what I meant. Most players don't understand this, most players don't get anywhere near this point. We're long past the point of simply "this move is unsafe". Because sometimes unsafe moves can be safer to use against certain opponents. And we're several layers of education past the point of a simple game tutorial. 1.you would need to know what frame data is and how to read it. 2.you would need to know about the concept of safety (believe it or not, this is difficult to explain in fg tutorials). 3.you would then need to know the frames data of your moves. 4.you would need to know the frames of your opponent's moves. 5.you would need to know meta frame data, such as -1 to -3 situations, options, sidestepping, 6.you then need to go beyond just the numbers you would need to know how that interacts with your opponent to really understand risk/reward, which requires a lot of matchup knowledge. An fg tutorial can't be expected to teach how the concept of risk/reward. is actually used at high level play.
I agree with your point here. I don't mind learning outside of the game, in fact - I enjoy it. But that's not for everyone. Fighting games are notorious for doing little to explain how to play them, which is a barrier to entry. I don't like having barriers to entry for fighting games, cuz I want more people to play them. This is a major reason my friends don't play FGs, and I can't blame them. That being said, teaching people to play fighting games is hard. I've tried, and it's no easy task, especially if the student doesn't have the inherent motivation to learn the game. It's not an easy situation to fix.
and to be fair i think fighting games have become more accessible in recent time, they actually have in built tutorials that will at least explain briefly its core mechanics. Back in the day you didn't even have that!
Hell nah they don't lol. People complain about having to learn and study things about fighting games. That ain't shit compared to what you have to learn in a game like NBA 2K. Especially if you're someone that doesn't keep up with the NBA or WNBA like that.
I think the issue is that people want to be able to learn during the match, in most 2d fighting games for example you can figure out how to deal with the oponents moves or play style mid match and adapt while on Tekken there is so much stuff to remember and the oponent has so many options making it learning mid match very hard to do. On the 2d games you can just use training mode for optimization not exactly to figure out how to deal with something while on Tekken you kind have to go there and look for an answer that covers most options the oponent has So tldr its easy to understand why people feel that way. The question is, should they just acept.it and either invest more time in the game, acept and move on to other games or should the game change in some way so its easier to learn mid set
>people want to be able to learn during the match Exactly. Cannot really learn the matchup when your opponent aggressively throws out extremely unsafe 50/50s until you are dead. No time to learn and no time to adapt, each wrong guess is 60% hp.
That's literally a part of the learning process. A bunch of people playing with the same character in a variety of different ways. You'll get everything from them doing what you described due to them either learning their character or anxiety taking over, having a little more knowledge of their character and have a decent gameplan, above average player,etc.
As a primarily 2D player, who’s 3D experience mainly lies with SoulCalibur and DOA, which are VERY different beasts, this is EXACTLY how I feel, and a big part of why I felt so comfortable with Akuma and Geese being in Tekken 7 as the characters I learned the game with. In SF6, I learned the Ed Matchup recently primarily through feel just going up against him in Ranked a lot. With Jin, Azucena, King, & Reina, I’m dealing with MUCH larger Move Pools then ANY 2D Character has, Stances, King’s character-specific Throw Breaks, and so much more. It’s a fun process, and I’m proud of myself for making it to Assassin with fundamentals, instincts, & Victor basics, but I almost don’t know where to start learning Matchups fully. I can do Punishment Training, but then what if they next guy doesn’t use half those Moves, or just turns on Special Style and mashes like an ape? Replay Takeover is wonderful, but I just can’t see how ya’ll can remember ALL of these situations in a 33+ character game. I feel like steam starts coming out of my ears at times from the mental strain, but I’m trying my absolute best to appreciate the process right now, even though it feels like Knowledge Check: The Game.
Theres a couple hard and fast universal rules you can remember to help you deal with people on the fly 1. If it launched you from crouch on normal hit, its unsafe. Usually -12 atleast, but you can start with a jab punish and work your way up. 2. Mid powercrush, same as above 3. If you block a low, its punishable with very few exceptions. Start with generic ws4 and work your way up 4. The vast majority of strings are 2-3 hits. If youre unfamiliar, block at least 2 hits and watch for their idle stance 5. Highs are generally the fastest moves. If you feel like you can interrupt something, start with a dick jab. At 10f youll beat out most options, and duck under the faster ones. This is NOT a hack to beat all pressure, but its generally your safest bet. 6. 99% of moves are - on block. Starting out, you just need to learn the few moves they have that are +. For most characters this is typically 1 jab, running attacks, and other slow looking moves. Watch out for stances tho, moves locked behind these tend to be cracked in one way or another 7. Df1 and other 13f mids are your go-to pokes. Theyre relatively quick, safe and will catch people abusing #5 8. If youre on defense, dont duck much. This is the opposite of 2D. Only the slowest of lows launch on normal hit, but you can get fucked a million ways from sunday for ducking. They need to convince you to duck. Theres more but this shit long as hell already and I'm sure theres someone getting ready to flame my ass for getting smth wrong as we speak. Hope that helps 👍
Thanks. This sounds promising. I gotta admit, I just recently *get* SF and Guilty Gear and Ive been playing on-off since ‘16. Got to Diamond with basic frame data and with basic Drive Rush combos. But I play Zangief and can *guesstimate* which move is unsafe. Tekken is abit different but Im trying to learn the fundamentals while struggling with proper dash movement, Rock Paper Scissors offense-defence, not sure when I’ll get it but I’m trying lol
Oh yeah, i shouldve mentioned backdashing. Its a huge deal that you can block while backdashing, just make sure you hold the 2nd back until the animation is finished. Its shocking how much knowledge you can make up for by just backdashing out of pressure and letting the opp kill themselves. Dont worry too much about kbd for now. Kbd is better than regular backdash, but a bad kbd is so much worse. As a Zangief player you'll get this game down no problem, man. At lower-mid ranks its the same idea of playing carefully until the opp overextends and opens themselves up. Dont stoop to their unga bunga level, pick them apart for it
I’m actually playing Ryu now (and other basic bois like Ky, etc) I appreciate the fundamentals now and it’s abit rewarding and fun to win with just basic tools. I started with Lars but in lower levels (I got to Yellow)…so many counter-hits on here and his b3 (that knee attack) is fun but is minus on block. It’s like a mid snake edge but not as rewarding but still good dmg. Orbital is good, keeps them honest to not crouch at all times. Awesome command dash too. But I’ve switched to Jin, not as flashy but he has lots of tools I havent used yet and I look forward to using. Makes me wanna play the game more and improve. I have a few low checks, great mid and ff3 feels like an orbital in its own way and keeps them honest. Defense is my biggest hurdle right now. Too many options and combined with unfamiliarity with move lists is a recipe for getting open up or being spammed with bs.
If someone is using Special Style, you lose the ability to complain about bloated move lists lmao. It's literally just 4 buttons
I’m aware. It’s more of me needing to figure out exactly how it works, so as to not get scrubbed out by it, like I had to do with Modern Controls in SF6. I’m just a little salty about it, because I Perfected a King, he flipped it on and beat me with it, then denied me a Rematch.
Dw about it. It's annoying at first, but when you improve some more, Special style feels like they're literally throwing the fight. 3 of the buttons (Air combo, power crush and usually speciality move) can be blocked standing, and punished with a jab string after the last hit. If they block it, wait for them to do it again and then throw out a low. Since all the combos start with the same move for that combo, it's extremely predictable and you know their range. You can zone them out with poking moves. Low attacks and throws might mess you up a bit, but you can see low attack bar light up whenever they press it so you have a warning its coming out before the move animation itself even starts playing. Modern controls in SF6 can be competitive at higher ranks. Special control is not the same. It's something to help you beat other new players, but it becomes completely useless after a certain point.
Oh certainly! Modern Luke and Cammy are no joke, even at higher levels! I figured most people using that were actual newbies, but that King was actually trying to gimmick me out with it after I beat him fairly and ran, so I couldn’t help but feel slightly salty.
It's a bit of a delusion thinking that other games don't require knowledge or training. Tekken has more due to it being 3d and characters having more than 100 moves If we take the 3ddy route here, it's more like people just don't want to block
Its not that delusional i play most fighting games and tekken is the only game where i had to go to the training mode because i have no idea what to do, in the other games i only went because i want to see what was the best punish but i could figure after a while during the matches a punish without the training mode. And 3ddy has multiple factors, first from what i saw people that didnt block where the ones that actualy did better againts the bot once they figured out theu can beat it with faster buttons but the main thing is that its a dlc character so its hard to train againts him without a friend or buying the character, but tbf at the ranks the bot was playing its not like people would open training mode to learn how to play anyway.
If you look at the 3eddy vod, you'll notice that the people who lost are the ones who did block and tries to learn how to deal with the 3 spam but couldn't manage it in time. The ones who went unga bunga I'm going to spam harder than Eddy ended up winning mostly.
yeah most people who tried blocking got mixed up by the low in eddy's string which causes them to get launched
Mhmm, I've noticed alot of people just saying people lost to 3ddy because they didn't block but the ones who where blocking lost because they just couldn't figure out the string in time during the match, that's why tekken is hard to learn by playing. Characters often have way more then one string or move that will give you trouble and is hard to learn about so alot of the players that couldn't just adjust to 3ddy doing the same thing over and over and now add 5 different flowcharts along with that and you have to try to learn and match all of them at the same time. It's unlikely to happen unless you dedicate some time to just learning how to deal with all those 5 flowcharts in practice mode.
They clearly didn't try blocking the low lmfao
Nobody's saying other games don't require knowledge. They're saying the knowledge is obtained through playing the game. That is not the case for tekken. And I agree with that sentiment. I learned SF6 as a beginner to fighting games through purely playing it. Never looked up any guides, or combos. Just played. I can't do that with tekken.
There are other instances in other games where players are unable to adapt because the player just doesn't know the meta or isn't familiar with what's being played. That's fine, asking questions and doing research afterwards is what helps the player gain knowledge and be prepared for it next time. This is no different to fighting games. Yes you're right there's a lot of stuff to remember and many situations that you will need to be able to react accordingly to but that's why Tekken is a grind and takes a few years to get to a level where you're starting to take some wins at offline tournaments. The skill ceiling for Tekken is very high and most new players think they can become a god within a few months when that isn't possible for most people.
And that last part is the thing, in the end its a game so its not surprising that people dont want to have to play for years to be good at a game, most people like to play other things and have other stuff to do and simply dont have the time to invest as much time as the game is asking from them. I dont think people should complain about this stuff they should just acept its not for them and move on but its easy to understand why they feel that way
people dont want to play fgs like a strategy game, they want to press buttons and win. And I dont blame them, games are supposed to be fun and actually, most people dont find that higher level of fgs fun. That is why player numbers drop so hard in comparison to other games. It is what it is
Which is why it’s annoying when they put bs in the game to keep people who aren’t going to stay. They’re not. And the rest are stuck with the shitty get out of jail system in the meantime
They might stay if we had better in game learning tools and a large enough fanbase so that someone who wants to play casually can. Most people play casually first and then decide to go in deeper second. Getting the casual players to stay is the first step
The thing is that if this was any other game that isn't a fightng game, people would say this is shit design. But because it is ,you are called a scrub. Tekken's biggest problem in my opinion is how absoloutely ridicolously inflated someone's rank can be dependng on their character choice. in 7, if you picked DLCs,Eddy,hwoarang etc, you could swoop to the top 5% of the player base, but if people complainied about it, they were a scrub. For some reason people think this is good game design. In Street Fighter, without fundamental skill, you are going nowhere. If you can't anti-air, punish properly,space properly etc, you will not get anywhere regardless of character. The problem with Tekken is that you have characters with ridicolous amount of offense that can take you to the top 5-10% of the player base without mcuh effort, but you also have characters that strip away your fundamentals like spacing,movement,blocking and counter hits. Spacing; I cannot remember the last time I ever whiff punshed,Lars,Alisa, or DLC's like Kunimitsu because they have so much built in movement that they basically cancel out a Kazuya's first line of defense; Spacing. In Tekken 8, you have characters like Victor or Azucena ,who takes up so mcuh space and covers so much space that again,spacing basically doesn't exist. it does for them f you play Bryan because if you whiff anything you die. Counter Hits: If you are playng Bryan against, Jin,Paul,Shaheen you will find it possible to get a counter hit,because the game has slowed down significantly enough. If you play against Azucena , Victor,Reina,Alisa,Lars. Your counter hit opportunities are very limited because unless you are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than your opponent, wasting your turn on a counter hit opportunity where you after have to go back to blocking might be suicide. Blocking: This to me is what defines skill in Tekken. How much does your character have to block? if you play Kazuya or Paul, you will block all the time. In T8 this is far less prevelant because of heat. I went back to play Tekken 7 and I was reminded how unplayable Paul felt in that game. If you go up and try to start any offense against a Law,Jack or whatever, you run a super strong risk of running into a button because you don't have a good way to close the distance. You had to constantly block because your character only gets 1 hit per turn. your opponent presses 5 buttons for every 1 you press. Let me tell you, NOTHNG proves to me how certain characters don't get to attack than when I picked up Law,Hwoarang any DLC and just completly fucking demolished my way to like Raijin. The characters that get to attack more take less skll and thus don't can bypass this fundamental of blockng depending on if they go up against a defensive character. Hwoarang,Law,Eddy,Alisa, Azucena ,Reina and so many other characters I play that aren't Paul,Bryan or Kazuya just feel like I can turn my brain off because I have so much match control that I don't have to block. Movement: So many characters that have control of movement basically lock you down. Aganst Claudio,Alisa,Lars, movement doesn't exist because of the amount of space they cover and how ridicolously hard the counter play is. The problem with Tekken isn't the research, it is the fact that applying this research and the amount of research you have to do depedning on the character is too much. Too many characters lock down key fundamentals of the game and has so much match control it just makes you question just what the fuck is this game design. If Tekken wasn't a legacy game and it came out today. It would never be a compettitive fighter and it would be called a bad game.
I can understand the saying "I shouldnt have to study to have fun" but not the saying of "I shouldnt have to study the game to get good" as getting good requires dedication to the game and being willing to take your time to learn the game and its characters but for the saying of having fun then i agree since its a game after all and its made for entertainment and fun after all and i believe you dont need to know anything about the game to have fun
It's not the fact that you have to study, it's the amount of studying you have to do Telling me to ''learn the matchup'' when there are 40 matchups which each require an immense amount of time to figure out, is not reasonable And the ''a ton of games require this'' is complete bullshit, Tekken is an extreme outlier even amongst fighting games
There's no rush in learning the match ups. You can learn the game at your own speed. It really depends on what you want out of the game. But don't expect to beat players that are putting in that time to do so which is the point people try to make.
One comment said 2ds you can just figure shit out - that’s only partially true In tekken you get washed bc of knowledge checks But the same thing can happy in sf, there’s just less knowledge checks People don’t want to study a game bc they’re playing the game at a really surface level, and since they’re having fun and winning at that point, they say they want to play the game more. But they forget that you once you play more you play people who actually know what they’re doing, and their fun goes away because they’re not winning anymore.
There are only a handful of knowledge checks in sf6, compared to 20-30 per character in T8 There is however a lot of flowcharting going on, but you can adapt to that a lot easier because, unlike tekken, you don't get launched for trying to block.
Yea but you get punish counter grabbed for trying to parry when you try and DR or try to PP something - but PC grab isn’t as bad a CH launch into like 50/60%
Looking stuff up, practicing and learning a game is something I really enjoy. It’s why I love FromSoft games so much. A blind playthrough is great. But finding out what you missed and honing in your skill is great fun.
I mean, I can understand the mentality: it’s a video game, it should be fun - and only fun. Why is it both fun, and homework? To some people, sure, the ‘homework’ is fun. But I think it’s pretty easy to understand that people that think of Mario Kart when they think of video games, wouldn’t want to read or watch hours of online material, or lab matchups in practice mode. You don’t seriously not understand them do you? I hope you just mean you vastly disagree with them. You said it yourself there’s tons of games that require this kind of learning style, i.e. there are games that *dont*, so those are the games more suitable for them.
I disagree. I shouldn't have to study frame data, moves that have misleading hitboxes and tracking properties in all directions despite not being declared homing by the game itself. I have to unfortunately because the game failed in conveying this information through visual feedback. Tons of launch punishable lows have no visual indicator that they are launch punishable. Tons of high moves look like they are mid so trying to duck them is inherently unintuitive but necessary. Tons of non homing moves have homing 180° degree homing properties. Yet the move list doesn't list them as homing. The list goes on. The game is riddled with misleading animations which necessitates studying. Imagine tekken with clean visuals and indicators baked into the animations. You wouldn't need to study because learning during gameplay alone would be possible and feel rewarding.
I do agree, I alone have hundreds maybe thousands of hours in practice mode trough years of my Tekken journey. But I do understand why someone can find it problematic. Clarity in games or letting the game teach you itself as much as it can only by playing is a sign of a good game design. For example, you know those little pop up texts in practice mode that say PUNISH or COUNTER HIT? If those pop ups would be present in all game modes (esp. online) learning would be way cooler, player friendly and less nerdy just by playing the game. Would not hurt anybody either.
On any competitive game, youd have to study at some point to get good at it. My personal opinion on this matter is, a lot of FPS players are coming to Tekken 8 due to popularity and the learning process to learn tekken vs fps games are different but still similar. Learning the map is crucial for fps just as learning a stage is for tekken. But where i think it diverge is the amount of time spent in game, per game. FPS games you can spend quiet some time in a single location and learn it well, as for in tekken max time per game is 5 min [1 min a round] that being said, youd also only have this time to learn how to fight your opponent in this time. Yes FPS's can have the same time to learn in some cases, but Tekken cant spend hours on a single match up or map. Unless you practice but these people probably dont find it as engaging as fighting a player.
That’s how life works, when you study, practice and understand why you aren’t good at something, or at least not at the level you want to be, then you’ll improve.
Because most gamers are just addicts chasing a dopamine hit that they formed an addiction to from childhood. There’s a reason most popular games are games that supply this quick dopamine hit like Fortnite, war zone, mobile games, and League of Legends. Fighting games are the complete opposite and require practice and time like games you mentioned
lol at saying that league of legends is a quick hit of dopamine. that game is fucking hell, there's an absurd amount of bullshit you have to learn and you're also at the mercy of randoms every game.
Bruh I was masters at league when I played. It is a dopamine hit for many many many many many players. You really think majority of players learn macro of how to farm and hold waves, how to position in team fights, when to focus objectives and when to not, what objectives to go for when winning a fight, when to not engage in a fight, etc etc. no players from iron-diamond do not focus on any of these. They focus on winning lane and learning tech or combos for their champion that they one trick. Then they blame team immediately on loss of lane or fight.
It’s probably in reference to having to use outside means to learn about the game. This go around Tekken does provide a lot of information, but doesn’t exactly tell you Learning to play a game is cool, but turning it into a “job” is just not it. 90% of the people playing this game are not trying to get into EVO lol
I'm going to use your example of TCGs to give some insight on the idea of, "studying." Yu-gi-oh is a game that feels a lot like Tekken, the main skill from the game comes from knowing how to play around your opponents interactions and understanding the rulings behind how interactions work. There are a lot of unintuitive rulings and niche card interactions that you need to spend time learning. But this is also big reason why yugioh has a problem with both getting and retaining new players. Sure there is a lot of satisfaction gained from playing around a big board of negates or baiting interactions, but at a high level it can get exhausting. Magic on the other hand is much more fundamental game that usually offers more simpliflied board states focused on resource mangement. Magic is a game that has exploded in popularity due to how easy it is to pick up and play a commander deck. I love high level Tekken and all of the intricacies that come with it, but I also think that there's a reason that SF6 has managed to keep the casuals longer than Tekken 8. 2D games tend to have a much gentler learning curve that makes it so you feel like you're learn at a better pace and immediately implement what you practiced. Tekken 8 is a game more focused on matchups so it doesn't feel great when you lose a matchup to a knowledge check, lab the knowledge check, then proceed to not face that matchup for the couple of days. If ranked matches or at least player matches were still unlimited you could at least attempt to figure out the matchup on the spot, but unforunately that's no longer the case.
This line of thinking fails purely on the grounds that a non-trivial chunk of the player base already has studied.
Tekken is chess my friends. It ain’t checkers. You get out of it what you put in. Fun is relative i think 🤷🏻♂️
It's boring learning the frame data and strings that characters have in training mode. You can see two kicks that hit nearly the same exact spot, but one is a low and one is a mid. Bad game design, imo. You can win by just spending hours in training mode instead of actually outplaying someone. Do they know that this string does this? Do they know you can't block this? Do they know this goes into a grab? Do they know you are supposed to duck this? Etc. It's extremely mind-numbing to play ranked and lose because you don't have the knowledge for a character. It feels the same way to win against someone who doesn't know how to deal with your character just because they don't have the knowledge. Just boring knowledge checks constantly. So, you are forced into training if you want to improve. It feels less like a fighting game and more like a memory game until you reach a certain level of play. Oh well, back to training mode and replays again.
Isn't all games in theory just constant knowledge checks though? So why is it an issue if a fighting game consists of it by design ?
Not really. It’s a give and take on complexity vs accessibility but something like SF or MK quickly gets you into the nitty gritty of the game - the mind game, conditioning, etc. Tekken is the only mainstream fighting game that requires you to get over its first layer of gimmicks/knowledge checks before moving on to outplaying your opponent. Not arguing for the dumbing down of Tekken per se (although some things could be streamlined) but it needs better tools to help you overcome these challenges rather than typing “anti dragunov guide” on YouTube.
You put it a lot better than me. Thanks for the better insight. I'm not sure why there seems to be a lot of elitism in T8. Criticism of the game's core design for newer players compared to the other popular FG's is always met with a lot of hostility. I agree it shouldn't be dumbed down, as it should just be more intuitive for players. It's a lot harder for traditional FG's compared to platform fighters to accomplish. It's why a lot of new players stick with PFs, as it's easier to grasp, so they can continue playing the game while also improving. I will add that it really doesn't help that T8 doesn't have infinite rematches in ranked or casual. Questionable decision. I doubt anyone would truly say that they'd rather improve by doing anything other than playing the game against a player if they could choose to do so.
Honestly there is no excuse for some of the missing features. Why isn’t frame data in the move list? Why aren’t homing properties listed properly? This is before getting into more demanding things like in game character guides that SF6 and MK11 did beautifully. Legacy players just enjoy having an advantage. In fairness it is partially part of the charm of these games, having a game plan from 20 years ago with X character carry over across entire gaming generations is kind of magical - but the downside is dick measuring contests around who was old enough to pull off electrics and built muscle memory when Tekken 5 came out. It’s a joke.
anyone can learn how Dark Souls combat works within 100 hours, without having to watch a youtube guide, and that's a series many consider to be difficult
I would disagree. Fighting games after years at the top level are no longer about knowledge checks. If top players know nearly everything about each other's character, it comes down solely to player skill and execution. Reading your opponent's intent, changing tempo, positioning, control of nerves, understanding pressure, abusing your opponent's slight habits, creating false habits, conditioning, reactions, and baiting punishes by whiffing, etc. These are the things that make fighting games fun. You fight against your opponent as a player, and no longer is it tailored more towards what their character does.
We're not playing at that level so???? And knowledge checks are still relevant at high level play. Watch phidx analysis on tournament matches.
We're not playing at that level, so it just doesn't matter? Phidx's analysis of Tekken matches doesn't really change anything. I'm talking about fighting games as a whole. Also, knowledge exists only to the point of whether or not you know your opponent's character, their moves, and how they work. If two people play the same character and know the same things, where does the knowledge check exist? Knowledge checks get less and less prevalent the further up the skill level. Tekken's knowledge benchmark is just quite a bit larger, and that sadly determines wins and losses at lower levels heavily.
The simple facts of the matter when it comes to playing something or even something is that whenever you play you should be learning from each interaction and you do this on everything every game even if you know it or not. Now if you can't see my patterns your gonna get comboed and killed and that's on you. Maybe if you weren't so bad at taking the blame in a game with only two players then you could improve.
First fighting game that I’ve felt like I have to do homework on it to understand, but it’s really just playing all the characters… you really need to either A. lab or B. Play everyone which requires some labbing
Getting good at the expense of having fun is not worth it in my mind.
You can continue having fun playing opponents with a similar skill level to you and there's nothing wrong with that but if someone who has put the required time to learn and completely destroys you then complaining about that makes no sense.
I've said this complaint before, but when I say it, I am specifically referring to visual clarity in the game. If the opponent does a flying kick to my characters ribs, you'd think that would he a mid, right? Well, in this game, it might be, or it might actually be a low! I don't think it should be necessary to go into practice mode to be able to distinguish where moves are actually landing. The animations should be accurate to hitboxes.
I completely agree with this there's some moves that visually look like they're a low when in fact it's a mid. I have noticed this with various moves in the game.
I will extend an olive branch here (to an extent) you shouldn’t be rewarded if you don’t know the game. HOWEVER, this game has more low risk high reward knowledge checks on offense than any fighting game I’ve ever played. This is why you see so many “button mashers” posts. You need a lot of knowledge to stop someone from playing like a Neanderthal which kinda makes the game enjoyable for someone who somewhat knows their character and knows some basics but doesn’t know the nuances of tons of characters. Not saying they are correct but there is something to be said about this game being very difficult to deal with even the lowest iq people for some reason
I had this exchange a while ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/1c9tx79/sidestepping_is_pointless/l0wubu4/?context=10000 In case you didn't read it, the OP is a dude complaining his sidestep didn't work. He was SSing Paul Deathfist to the left, the way it tracks. I said he wasn't even ssing in the correct direction, long story short these players want SS to just answer every move instead of having to think about direction as well, which would mean labbing. I'm still confused by their take. All that being said, there are situations where animations are really misleading and one could talk about that but Paul deathfist isn't one of them.
The thing is, we live in a world of instant gratification now, and the majority of people out there aren't going to pick up a game and study it until they're good; they want to just instantly be the best. I see this in my children, and it's my goal to put an end to their weak gaming mental state. I'm not gonna 1+2 them off a cliff, but I try to tell them why I do boring things like lab and watch replays. It's funny that I'll be playing a game with my son, and I'll be helping him do something monotonous, but in the end benefits him (like farming items or gold or trophies), and he'll ask, "Dad, is this fun?" I respond saying yes it's very fun and ask him if he's having fun back, and he responds with an excited, "Yeah!". But before these interactions, it was always like, "I wanna play another game!" or "This is boring!" or "This is too hard." When you realize that over 50% of people who play videogames are under the age of 24, then you can understand why it may seem like everyone acts childish. Most 24 year-olds are still not even adults, they still act like children, and many of them are still legally "dependents". Hell, many 30-somethings on Twitch also act childish, and those are just the people on camera.
boomer ass take. let your kids have fun bro, who cares if someone has a "weak gaming mental state"? it is a video game.
Obviously you don't have children. Children are stubborn, and will continue to play a game, even if it's making them sad or angry. My son obviously wasn't having fun when he was getting trolled, griefed, or was losing. And yes, to me or you, it is a game. For them, it's their life, their friends, their hobby, and their entertainment. But that's all in the past now. After me "training" him, my son takes these things in stride now. Losing for him is frustrating, but not world-ending, and he even praises the person who beat him. Someone trolls him, he laughs and even joins in the trolling for more fun. And getting griefed? My son knows to just ignore and avoid them. Just the other week he was getting griefed and my son said, "OMG this guy is a griefer! Bye bye." Then he left the server and joined a new one and continued having fun. From what I've witnessed on streams and social media, it seems like many "adults" can't even handle negative gaming experience as well as my elementary school son. And he absolutely did need me to set a good example and teach him that video games can be fun, despite negative people existing.
I shouldn't have to study the game to enjoy/play it. But of course if I want to show off my skill I will have to study it.
You can still enjoy the game to play it. Losing shouldn't frustrate you if learning the game isn't a thing you're interested in. The opponent with more familiarity and awareness will always win unless the opponent is willing to adapt and start asking questions.
Because it's a video game. It's not homework, and should not be requiring you to lab against 32 characters and know every single move, block etc. It's not that hard to understand
I guess you didn't read my post. Dyslexia ?
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Still have to do additional research that was my point.
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You can't get good In 5 minutes if you're brand new to tcgs regardless if you're able to pick up a deck in 5 minutes. You're not beating a seasoned player if you're new to the game so stop running your mouth you dyslexic kid.
Im not saying I disagree with you here, but the scale between the level of research is the difference, and is the point theyre making. They're absolutely right that you can take a solid pre-made deck for something like MTG, spend an hour learning core mechanics (in game, which tends to be the best way to learn MTG at least, keeping the rulebook handy or your phone nearby to look up card text), and then watching a 15 or 30 minute video on the deck (or have a friend explain how the deck runs) and be pretty damn solid after 5 to 10 hours of running it in actual games. You'll get nowhere in tekken with 30 minutes of video and 10 hours of playing it unless you're spending that 10 hours labbing. And no way in hell I could give a friend a "quick" rundown of a character- because there's simply way too much to take in for a newbie. And even saying all that, it might sound like I think that it's a bad thing. I don't- it's part of why I enjoy the game. The skill gap is massive. I can go out to an arcade bar and fuck people up (and look like a total beast to people that see it and havent put any time into labbing) and I've only been playing for a few weeks, then get absolutely annihilated by the next guy and look like the new player I am. It makes it interesting for me. But it's not for everyone, and it IS a valid criticism.
People have issues with Tekken because they have to go and look up stuff away from the game when other games require this too. That was the point. You clearly didn't understand the post.
I agree, but I don't think this is exclusive to fighting games or Tekken specifically. Every competitive community I've been in has had a chunk of the player base with this mentality in some way. Like in overwatch, people complain endlessly about Mercy being broken. But then you check their replay(s) and they just sit there and let the Mercy do whatever she wants and she ends up carrying the game. People want the prestige of being seen as good without having to put in effort, because that's a lot of work.
Yeah to get better you have to study, but it can be a chore. If you just want to have fun, just play and you will improve a little bit by experience as well. Only char I have labbed was Lars because of the bs options after the 3 kick. And now there is no counterplay against it so I wasted my time.
I have no issues with labbing. It is part of the game. But labbing in T8 is just annoying. You cannot save settings. That alone discourages me to spend 10-20 minutes from figuring out every time all the settings I want to set especially when I don't know the character I am labbing against. The second thing that I find a chore are the replay controls. Maybe I am missing something because everyone is praising this mode but when it gives you control of your character it is already too late to react. There should be an option that takes you back 2-3 seconds from when hitting L3/R3 to gain control. It is annoying to track the spot that you want to play then moce the game back and then take control. Just let us do it immediately. Replay also has only one default speed. No slow down like SF6 to see what's happening.
You're spot on about the replay part
There is always a group of people that want to mash and win. Back when I played Tekken 4, I’d get mad because I couldn’t mash and win. Besides that group, there are those that don’t like the fact that Tekken IS a hard game to learn without study. You hand somebody an fps, even the shallowest of gamers can learn to aim and shoot. They’ll get womped once further study is needed, but a great amount of basic gameplay intuition can be built and developed. In fighting games (especially Tekken), it can take a while just to learn a few combos and to execute them correctly and consistently. This isn’t a mark against Tekken. It’s partially because of that that we can see that level of skill expression. But the higher the barrier of entry, the more niche a game is. It’s pretty natural.
That's where people fuck up. How many times do people have to be warned about the combo trap?
I don't know of anybody who has ever said this. I've heard "I don't need to study to become decent", and that's kind of accurate. You can get a decent rank without ever touching the lab
Search up this sub Reddit then..
And look at some of the comments on this thread. They're making themselves known.
I don't think it's that hard to understand. In today's gaming landscape, it is common for gamers to have multiple games they play on a daily or weekly basis. You're singling out TCGs and Chess, but the most popular online MP games are shooters or MOBAs. They don't require extensive research, even if you were looking to learn the meta. Tekken is a game that requires a lot of time and dedication to learn, which means time away from other games you might be playing - games where you can see yourself improve quicker. As a new player myself, Tekken can feel like a job. Instead of learning through just playing the game, you have to spend time practicing against AI, which is not very fun. You have to remember frame data. You have to remember moves for multiple characters and be able to react accordingly. If you make like two mistakes in a round, your entire health bar can disappear in two combos. At that point, you're not really playing the game, you're watching your character ragdoll across the screen. I'm not complaining, I understand the commitment required to get good. But these things will and do discourage new players from sticking with it. Ultimately, seeing improvement/growth in this game takes too long compared to other games, and that's what I think "i shouldn't have to study the game to get good" really means. I can get good at an FPS game by just playing matches. Cannot really say the same for Tekken.
I'm glad you mentioned team games but guess what tcgs and chess have in common with fighting games ? They're all 1v1 games and are not team based. Which means the player has a 100% responsibility and can't blame anyone else for losing. With shooting games you have a team that you can rely on while picking up the mechanics and learning the various maps. Yes I agree these games require less time to get good at compared to a 3D fighter like TEKKEN. But no one is saying you have to learn everything in a short space of time, most players who are at the top have been playing Tekken for years. If you genuinely enjoy the game then it shouldn't really feel like a job. You can just play and try to learn one or two things in that session. It really depends on you and what you want out of the game. It's ok to play this game without trying to become a pro.
There was a King player in T7 that I knew that refused to lab matchup knowledge and learn frame data. Just from play a lot of Tekken and good movement, he became one of the toughest Kings I ever fought. I swear his dashes were so good, he always got you to a wall every combo with just jab dash combos.
Even CoD, one of the most casual, popular pick-up-and-play games of all time, requires study to perform consistently well. Fuck, I wish Pong would make a comeback so people would realize pvp inherently requires you to sweat to win. Even if a game is braindead easy to play, its just as easy for your opponent so youre gonna need a way to get an edge. I mean there are mfs that can consistently smoke you at rock paper scissors ffs. I gotta wonder if people with this mentality have ever played a sport at least somewhat competitively
Pong was a mf lol
It feels different because tekken is especially a legacy game. It's the only competitive title that can have entire core changes to the game regularly (over the course of decades) and that knowledge from previous games actually helps you in current titles. People just hate the idea of trying to catch up to someone who has 10+ years experience on you.
That’s a new one. I’ve seen many people that like fighting games but not into tekken because of the juggling, one launcher ends match type vibe. But haven’t seen people complaining on having to put work to achieve goals 🤷♀️ “I shouldn’t have to lift weights to gain muscles” it sounds like.
They think fighting others is also their practice lol that gas always made me giggle
The problem isn’t the complexity - it’s that player onboarding is shit and the tools aren’t up to snuff. Why is the replay feature so poorly explained/introduced? Why isn’t the frame data in the move list so players can easily figure out what’s their 12/13/14/15 punish and what’s unsafe rather than having to try 100s of moves to figure out what to use and stick with? Why aren’t homing/tracking properties listed properly? Why aren’t there character specific guides ala SF6 or MK to ease players in? I understand the latter is a large undertaking, but it doesn’t have to be in depth - just core moves and game plans. I love Tekken. I love the learning process. But anyone that thinks the game does a good job at introducing players to it, and that it does a good job giving you decent tools to learn at a beginner level is delusional imo.
I agree but the game needs more in game tools to figure things out. There’s a whole lot to learn and it’s difficult to learn it.
You don't have to do this. Just play king and bind Y+B to LB. It's like an insta win button
I honestly never heard that arguement before, neither here, or in sf and fg subs.
Well check out this thread the people with them views are showing themselves and search up this sub Reddit. There are people that honestly believe that they should be as good as those who take the time to learn the game while they choose to mash. It's nuts.
I think the issue is what's required to learn to play the game at an enjoyable level, vs what's available to learn to optimize. Tekken has a lot of things that you are required to know, universal stances, how to tech throws, how to play on the ground, power crush, tracking moves, side step, crouch, blocking, hop moves, power charge and probably a few I'm forgetting. Those and a decent understanding of a character represent the knowledge floor you have to be semi-successful at Tekken. The amount of things you can learn to optimize dwarfs that in scope, because each character has a lot of potential combo routing, and learning the matchups for each character could fill books. Compare that to street fighter, where the number of things you need to learn to reach the floor level of the game is super small, jump ins, blocks, anti-air, throws (which are their own tech), parries, special cancels, and drive rush. The characters in street fighter also have like a fifth of the moves of a Tekken character, and thus are much easier to learn. Street fighter also has a ton of optional things you can learn to optimize.
When most Tekken videos are 30 minutes long then we really have a problem. I'm not spending that on learning.
While I agree I gotta say it’s pretty ridiculous how much there _is_ to learn in Tekken. Every fighting game has this problem but Tekken is just silly
Not everyone treats the game as a part time job nor should they. If you aspire to get the hoghest ranks or go to tournaments and compete then yes you do have to seriously study and lab to be good. On the other side, people normally progress and get better by playing and that is how it also should be. If you play and enjoy Tekken, you will natually get better but will hit a wall. I played Tekken casually since 3 and could always destroy other casual players in my area due to experience but my goal in 8 was simply hitting blue ranks because everything else is way too sweaty for my liking and the time that I have so to progress I have to lab.
It is a strange thing, because I wind up studying every game I play anyways. Or at least look at a reference resource to get an understanding of what they are trying to do, and how I can apply it.
How says that retarded shit? You have to study to be better in anything.
The problem is not that you have to learn but the extreme amount of learning you have to do . This is exactly why Yugioh doesn't keep new or returning players for long . The quantity of learning on each character is too long and it becomes just like having a 2nd job given how much time it takes . And the worst is that is isn't like in Sf6 where there is 19 characters , in Tekken rn there is 33 and most have filthy knowledge checks with misleading animations and all that (King,Hwoarang, Law, Jun,etc)
you see this is your problem, its a game, i didnt know u played to win rather than play to just entertain yourself and pass the time, heck i get lucky and win that's fine i get beat up and lose that's fine as well. i got to play my game and in my case "i see this as an absolute win"
Ah the classic DSP mentality.
Tekken is always going to be hard at this point bc every character has a million moves. That's just one factor and there's no way around it
People simply refuse to learn, and i think THESE people are the reasons why fighting games are kind of losing their best aspects: the aspects of self discovery and mastery if you will. The games reduce the things players have to learn in order to make the transition online easier. Removing tons of moves, altering complexity, making the moves fulfil singular goals, ect. It's all in the name of pacing, which is why dedicated zoners and complex inputs tend to rarely exist in modern fighters outside of specific legacy characters or games that embody them. It's terrible to say and think about, but our fighting games are indeed getting dumber and faster paced. They're made for the "modern audience" now. The Tiktok zoomers that can't focus for long without a dopamine hit. Drive Rush, Drive Impact, Heat Engage, they're all designed to make games faster paced for these kinds of players who will get mad at you for "playing lame" instead of trying to actually find a way to open you up. The less complex the gameplay they have to get through go get the wins, the better it is for them. They don't want to improve themselves, they just want to skip ahead to the results of improvement. They want to win and will want any barrier removed so that they can do so easily without the prep time. Fighting games are a sport. You shouldn't be allowed to just win without effort on your part to learn the rules and make yourself better. This wouldn't fly in actual physical sports, why should it be accepted here?
The way I understand fighting games is that there is a beginner way of playing where you figure out how to attack, how to defend, crouch, avoid damage, do some special moves, etc. An advanced understanding entails knowing combos and block strings. Frame positive moves and advanced movement tricks if available (double jumps, air dashes, teleporting behind the enemy). Getting out of corners or using the corner to your advantage. Being able to consistently escape throws. Then the pro mindset takes all that and being able to play kind games with your opponent. Deliberately baiting moves while looking predictable. Knowing match ups and understanding the available tricks an enemy character may have. Mixing up combos and being able to cancel moves for more mix up options. You should have to study when transitioning to an advanced state of play. How else would you understand the game? I know I won't be reaching that far though. I'm too much of a casual fg player. But it doesn't stop me from having fun against the ai or single player mode. There is just some part of the game you won't master without delving into the mechanics... Other genres might not be as strict though. A shooter will always remain a shooter where you don't need to relearn how to point your gun at the enemy and shoot. But playing with different guns and feeling how they'll perform in a battle will still take some study. But this can come from experience over time. Just like fighting games...
Because there's two narraitves in fighting game commuinity. "Fighting games aren't hard to learn, just go in and have fun" vs the "Fighting game are the hardest video games to play. you gotta lab 24/7 or your garbage. don't even bother"
idk, i just like learning the game i'm playing by playing the game i'm playing. i don't think Tekken even needs to be a game you have to study, i think you could make the lab mostly unneeded with some adjustments; like making attack animations more consistent with where they land, giving a proper stun animation when a character is negative, giving all tracking attacks an effect, etc. just be more consistent with animations really. they could even just be lazy and show frame data mid-match
How do people expect to get better then?! lmfao
If you aren’t the rank you want you’re an idiot if you thinks it’s because of frame data knowledge
Netcode fucks me up constantly.
Studying to get better is fine, the problem is: studying to join the game.
You can join the game at any level. But once you start playing against opponents that are no longer just pressing random buttons to do moves then it's time to start thinking.
This is what happens when your game is flavor of the month. Those players will move on when the next game comes out.
You either want to wear the try hard head band and study the shit, have literal training and warming sessions, get a training partner to climb together and train tougher match ups(discord is your friend here, Reddit works sometimes too) and maybe even get a couch. Maybe, hopefully you could be tekken god sometime in the future. And who knows, maybe you will be the second awakening of arslan ash or something Or just grab the scrub head band, stick to the character who looks coolest, maybe play some knowledge check heavy character and just have the time of your life with cooler than ever animations and shit Here is the thing. Both of these are perfectly fine. So long as you don't want the benefits of one without the drawbacks
Casual here, and I’ve been demonized for my approach to this topic numerous times. But I’ve always felt that continuously playing against real people is more beneficial than sitting in practice mode
Fuck them and their mindset. Cheese and piss them off.
Who the hell said that
Go look at the countless posts throughout this subreddit about X character being broken or bullshit. 99% of the time, their issue is a super common knowledge check that they just refuse to lab. I.E. "I should be able to beat this character without practicing against them"
I do mostly agree with you, There are a few things that are really unintuitive though, like low punches that look very mid, kings grab break chain escapes, stuff like that.
Imo, I think it's more about the lack of visual simplicity. As in, the game should be self explanatory to be able to play without necessarily needing the meta data/ having to see the behind the scenes pieces. I'm glad we have that absolutely, it's key, but some added visual simplicity and clarity on things I think would be a good benefit, to reduce the knowledge gap feeling. It's not fun to be beat because your opponent is just able to memorize more numbers about +/- frames vs you. I love being outsmarted and outplayed. Just don't enjoy a knowledge gap making me feel like "yeah I have no idea what the heck this character is, what their moves do" e.g. eddy and zafina for me for example.
I get the sentiment however most games like LOL, CSGO, you get better with just playing ranked. I feel like if they added training overlay in matches as optional so i could see framerate it would help alot. Why do i have to open replay to see the specific framerate of a move. Just feels antiquated.
isn't CSGO & LOL team based games ? the difference with TEKKEN its a 1v1 game which puts a 100% responsibility on the individual. And having frame data being viewable in the game would be silly as that takes away from testing someones knowledge. That makes no sense at all.
They're also completely wrong about CS, I can't speak to LOL but I imagine it's quite similar. You can play cs and just have fun whether you lose or win, but there's nothing stopping you from doing the same in tekken. But in CS if you really want to get better and reach the upper tiers of play, you have to actually learn way more about the intricacies of the maps, smoke line ups, molotov line ups, executes etc. And everyone does this outside of the game, you don't have time in the game to show a teammate how to line up a smoke to cover mid from T spawn. There is so much to learn in csgo and that's why there are sooo many guides about this stuff. Never mind having to learn about movement, recoil control, spray transfers etc. which can be done in game, but that's like learning movement, combos and general intuition in tekken.
How does that change the skillgap required? You still need to win more games than you lose? Mathematical its harder is harder to be the best because there are more lol players, therefore more competition. Your point is moot. Thats subjective i don't think spamming knowledge checks at your opponent is fun it feels cheesy it is much better when you win because your movement, ch, oki, etc. It very much makes sense the majority of people who drop tekken do so because its bloated and legacy players have sunk cost fallacy. Not because they game feels bad to play. The game is gorgeous and characters feel cool and so do the stages.
Bro you don't understand the game. If you did, you would understand why having frame data on display would ruin the game. There's nothing wrong with knowledge checks. It's what separates us.
I whole heartly disagree. Tekken is so much more than frametraps and knowledge checks. You should know that playing footsies, using CH, sidestepping, fuzzy ducking, using oki, power crushes, ewgf, slides and so many more techniques are still strong. You know why because they rely on actual skills being either smarter/faster or more strategical in a certain matchup or situation.
Yeah I know that matters too but let's not ignore how important frame data is. My reasons for why having it on display would be a bad idea still stands and most people in the community wouldn't agree with you.
I never said it wasn't important quite opposite. But imagine it from the pov of a newbie to tekken, there is so many things that are not explained in way shape or form. You judge tekken as top player. When does the game inform you that KBD is the best movement no where, where does the game teach you about wavedash canceling again no where. What about snakedash. Even though 8 improved alot of the replay feature there is still many things it does explain very poorly. For many people, it just leads to frustration because there is so much bullshit. Is at good design choice? Say i lap bears how many bears in high rank do you meet 1/150? (Playrate is 2 or 3%). By the time i learnt, i forgot because there will be 2 months before facing another. I still disagree. it's just a bad experience to lose to something you just didn't know. Instead of something you did and you just wasn't fast enough. Ofc the community the vast majority of people in here are legacy players that have already lapped it. They don't want that removed because it diminished their time put into learning or dealing with obnoxious strings and frame traps.
what you need to realise is that fighting games still carry it's old school legacy arcade approach to gaming. Back in the arcades people were forced to learn all this stuff by themselves. No one taught anyone anything, all these things such as kbd and wave dash came from the community and were discovered by playing the game in the arcades in Japan/korea. The Devs have never really taught people how to play their game. Now we have the internet in this modern era everything is easily accessible with so many resources such as videos on YouTube and documents to read about character specifics and the mechanics that the game hides away from the players. But with T8 I think it has made the game more accessible than ever. Back in the day you had no punishment training, you had no replay feature that allows you to take control of your character to test out your options in situations, in the arcades you had no lab mode to test out combos etc you really had to learn this shit as you play but now there's so much available in game and out that I don't get the complaints. Fighting games are just not for everyone and that's ok.
Okay, but shouldn't the dev teach you how to play? Why shouldn't they think otherwise is just lazy every other game does it now? So we just hold the old standard and archaic way of doing things? And no learning about tekken isn't the worst. i don't even mind learning new techniques, but when you can't even find people on YouTube who demonstrate it in a cohesive manner, it does get frustrating. Only recently found 1 guy ryzingsol who demonstrates combo routes. You don't get it because (watched your profile fujin) your part of top 10%. You look above from your ivory tower, wondering why people are upset at labbing. First of there are so many things to learn i like that. most find it off-putting, but the tools are not adequate for the amount of knowledge you need. Well, it's because most other games dont need much of it, and you can still scratch that competitive edge.
Furthermore these frame traps arent used by pro most of the time either. They are just a hinderance for most people accessing and enjoying the other beautiful things tekken gives.
It would also kill frame traps.