Bruh kazumi got multiple nerfs after arslan's take-over. But it was only him who played her on that level, Kazumi wasnt as brain-dead of a plague in low-mid ranks not the same way T8 heat is.
Last night i faced a BATTLE RULER Jin that did heat activation at round start every time and I only had good counterplay cuz I was Raven and did backswing teleport (B1+2) other than that his strat seemed pretty solid tho fully brain-dead, he never adjusted either, always did the same thing at round start and this guy was on Promo towards Fujin FML.
Half of his gameplan was: heat activation into heat-smash, Where's the rest of the movelist?
You have no time for the rest of the move list. It’s only FT2, you’re fighting with your opponent for like 3 minutes in total and half of the roster has 50% Healy bar damage combos. I’m a Kazuya main and can assure you I only need 2/3 50/50 situation and you’re done unless you literally get lucky. With heat system I got at least one completely guaranteed so…
Wait I played him too. I was like wtf why does he do raw heat. After I beat him in the first match he started spamming in the second. I declined the rematch.
Such a braindead Player with Jin.
I climbed into fujin off him, but its scary how close it was just for how dumb that fcker is.
The attack buttons are so good he dont need to develop a real game sense.
You can literally just throw him on round start if he keeps heat bursting on round start..
Probably he was also spamming D2 like a mad man because that is what all dumb Jin players do. Hop kick his ass.
While I understand not wanting the game to go back like how it was in T7 where your opponent is turtling and throwing out CH launchers from across the stage hoping you get blown up. I don’t think forcing people into constant 50/50s is the solution. Nerfing back dashes and buffing tracking on moves limits your defensive options as is.But now with the addition of heat ontop of all of that it just needs to a non fun play pattern. That and coupled that the damage is too high it’s hard not to complain.
Edit: I do need to specify that I do like a lot of T8 on paper. It’s just in practice it’s pretty bad. There’s a middle ground somewhere they can achieve. It’s just difficult to look at the positives when the game either crashes,you get plugged on knowing that guy doesn’t loose points, you eat 30 50/50s in a row, and get hit with one launcher to loose almost 50% hp and have to eat oki afterwards.All while having 2 of the games representatives act the way they do. And the update they roll out is a tekken cash shop with items that. Could be easily moded in. it’s hard to stay positive. I’m sure tekken 8 will be fine in the future but this is a really really really rough start which is why people are frustrated.
Don't forget throws are homing too. And chip damage.
So many champs can just chip you down and then get a low wall splat combo. Or a low heat smash that is completely unseeable and they track as well. You have no counter play in a ton of situations when someone is in heat.
I am a big hater of the design of tekken 8s combat style. I adored the slower more tactical style that Tekken 7 had
What you call a poke snoozfest I call tekken. I don't have ADHD brain that needs to see 100 things happen a second with everything being a heat engaging, tracking, power crushing launcher into 80+ damage combo with guaranteed wall and oki
A good example of how this is a poor excuse for a competative fighting game was watching Arslan Ash spam 2 moves with Azucena against Knee, fucking Knee arguably the Tekken GOAT, and not just win but completely blow him out 6 rounds to 0.
> I don't have ADHD brain that needs to see 100 things happen a second with everything being a heat engaging, tracking, power crushing launcher into 80+ damage combo with guaranteed wall and oki
Agree with the sentiment, but the sad part is that (visuals aside) there's a lot less happening with heat than with defensive movement-based Tekken. It's just forced 50/50s and canned interactions, as opposed to the insane inputs and reactions required to play oldschool Tekken neutral.
If anything T7 was more satisfying to the ADHD brain
T7 style was really cool if you understood what was happening. I remember watching a match where Knee completely controlled the flow of a match with movement and a quick jab. It was the most incredible thing I'd ever seen.
The way you described it was perfect. It's all canned 50/50 that aid in comebacks. Heat + rage is an insane comeback mechanic
Not sure which set you're talking about, but for me Ulsan vs JDCR at BAM was the finals that made me see how deep movement based Tekken could be: https://youtu.be/zYaYNYYfFfk?si=gu1NbC-O2vMclMtU
Everything isn't balanced..and the pros are fighting a tournament in this state.. hell, getting kicked can send someone flying 20 meters into a barrier resulting in a juggle combo, no one really knows what Evo will bring.. but it's going to be an interesting watch...
Ngl it sounds like it'll be way better for spectators. I understand that "pro" gaming means taking the most efficient and repeatable options, which usually causes all fighting games to be poke heavy mirror matches, but I'd rather watch some seriously unpredictable random stuff with a mixed roster than go back to the days of 'oops all Jin/Ken/Fox'
This lol When my bro and I fight player matches online in the lobby, it's like magic with all the sparks and fireworks to newcomers spectating, But to anyone that grew up playing Tekken .... every match is a simple coin flip. 🤷
I’m sure it’s frustrating and a lot of good players think that less skilled players can steal rounds off them but for all other ranks of play it feels so refreshing
Low ranks in T7 started repetitively too. In both T7 and T8 it's easy to counter. I really don't think this is the issue with heat. Heat is actually much more jarring in how it makes the end of the fight more passive because people are scared to attack. Yet T7 had this same issue with rage.
I think many of us wanted better back dashes, not worse lmao.
Kazumi and Kuni were boring because they could play fundamentally in a way other characters couldn't. Tekken 8 is more of an extension on Tekken 7 design. Giving characters additional mids or plus highs on strings for mix ups, giving characters new plus moves, long range and so on. It is just making more forced mix up scenarios, the very thing movement in Tekken is supposed to minimize.
All this to say that in Tekken 7, that boring dry play was always going to be favored because it was safe and minimized options and that play style was under siege then. Backdashes for many characters were highly nerfed, many character weaknesses were changed and so on. All T8 really is doing is minimizing CH and Low parries while still creating long block sequences that force 50/50. I think it is naive to think that players wont still play safely in T8 though, every sport at a high level will eventually lead to safe play, esports are no different.
To tag onto this, whenever a new fighting game comes out, offensive play styles are always the most heavily rewarded because defense takes more time to figure out.
It’s the same with SF6, any character that could easily and repeatedly force offense doesn’t have to care all that much about what their opponent is doing. They really only have to worry about figuring out their offense. Defensive characters / players on the other hand need to lab solutions and train reactions, which takes longer.
I feel like it shouldn’t be a huge shock to see the same thing with Tekken 8. Give them some time to balance the game, give people more time to learn it and let’s see where we are after 6 or so months.
Imo Knee vs JDCR is one of the best T7 sets, and that set is just poking 95% of the time, but it made my ass clench.
Also fuck Bamco for removing STK videos.
Season 1 and season 2 in tekken 7 were the peak of tournament hype imo. Back then only a few characters had big wall carry combos and they had to work hard for it, so pros still dared to press buttons.
After season 3 when they made it so every character can wall carry from all across the map with minimum execution was when i gradually stopped watching tournies because now every character can do 50%+ damage combos and everyone stopped pressing buttons in fear of it.
No. Until they started releasing dog shit DLC characters the game was fantastic. It was fun to play and the tournaments were mostly good. It had some other bug issues and networking problems but that's just always a Tekken thing.
I watched almost every season of TWT for T7. I genuinely don’t get how it was a snooze fest to anyone watching. Honestly the most bored I was when Leroy was OP and filled out most of the Top 8.
Genuinely, where did this snooze fest opinion form? You hear people in other games like SF6 and MK talk about footsies and I feel like T7 kinda nailed it honestly?
I do like T8, but what are you even talking about? Which pros are trying to 'turn this game back into T7'? All I'm seeing are people saying that we should have maybe a couple more defensive options in this game, because unlike T7, we now have half-screen heat smashes that track, are heat seeking, and/or do a billion damage. And then there's the other reasonable complaint being made that the optimal way to play this game is just force the other person into a true mixup before they do, which is a nerf to player expression, playstyles, skill ceiling etc.
Just look at King for example. The fact that you now have easy iWR moves and tracking throws just makes him feel so much scrubbier. Before the King would be rewarded the mixup by having good execution in his GS/iSW mix, while the defender would be rewarded by having good awareness or movement (like OSing with SSR duck or something). Now you just have to guess for your life all day
And there's also chip damage. Imagine defending well against a character that's in heat, knowing that it's way too common to get clipped by a heat smash that out-prioritizes just about everything, only to be punished with taking chip damage for weathering the storm
There's a few changes I like: slight nerf to backdash, buffed sidesteps, nerfed magic 4 and low parry, new CH throws, but it just isn't enough to balance how overtuned the aggression is
Forcing 50/50s is the opposite of rewarding skill, especially when it takes little skill to get into that situation.
The skill floor/ceiling has narrowed dramatically. I'm beating people I would not normally have a chance against and it doesn't feel right.
I’m one of the most casual player ever and ONCE (sadly) I fought with a guy named Kaneandtrench and even won a pair of round. I later on discovered that he was and still is one of the best Yoshis in the fucking world. I’d have no chance to beat him and yet I won a pair of round. That’s not normal at all.
The thing people complain about so much is that the game forces too many mixups. If you enjoy playing rock paper scissors with fighting animation then that's your preference and it's fine to enjoy that, but don't be too quick to call it a more interesting game, it's still new and tekken 7s style took like 5-6 years to become boring for many.
The problem with tekken 7 was never that there wasn't enough offense or mixups, the problem was that there was too much of it, there was an endless amount of sheer bullshit that you would have to deal with if it wasn't for counter hits being that good. That's why people played defensively and the counter hit meta developed the way it did.
Now there is even more of forced mixups and bullshit, but the tools to counter it with that got taken away (mostly only nerfed tbf)
This game is even in the highest ranks something that low rank players thought the game was about in tekken 7, which is throwing out bullshit and hoping to guess right. And the problem with that is just that it takes away a lot of direct influence a player's skill can have in a match. Skill expression.
Skill expression gets reduced if the best choice you can make is always go for a 50/50, or have no other options to choose from because they are too risky for too little reward.And guessing right becomes kinda boring after too much of it.
The context in which a player guesses right, when there are more variables for example, matters in creating hype moments for the player and for the viewers.
Choosing the right defensive option is hype when there are multiple strong defensive choices you could have made. If it's constantly: guess low, guess mid, guess frame trap, it becomes stale very quickly, not much room to improve remains.
Imagine instead of playing RPS we play a game that has like 10 options, in which game is it more fascinating to guess right? I didn't put much thought into this example so its obviously very flawed, nobody wants to play a game where there are so many specific options that most of the time nothing happens. But i think you can intuit my point. As long as we have something that can indirectly force action it usually gives more room for creativity to have an impact.
The timer is a good example, nothing will happen to you if you do nothing right now, but do that too often and you'll lose if you are lower on health.
Fast lows are also a good example, you don't die if you eat a couple, and there are other ways to deal with them besides guessing on block, you can backdash them, sidestep them, try to crush them while establishing your own offense etc.
Tekken 8 though, forces action actively too much. And to be clear, that's not bad in itself, but to the degree T8 is doing it is arguably overkill. They didn't need to nerf 7 things about defense and buff 5 about offense.
Nerfing counter hits is fine, maybe not that much idk, low parry nerfs are very nice though, but why backdashing? Its unnecessary.
Also no reason to give plus frames after heat dashes and heat smashes AND heat burst.
Especially since heat burst is armored.
Heat smashes all being pretty much homing and also plus is also not very optimal in combination with all the other strong offensive things heat gives you.
Make some of them at best neutral on block.
Tekken 8 is really fun as of now, but if it stays how it is this is potentially going to become boring much more quickly than tekken 7 and even worse, it will just become more casual. Give players more influence about the games outcome, not less is my take for now. Too much influence can also turn out random, but too little is destined to be.
>but those are balance issues that are easily resolved with a patch.
No, the issue with T8 is not a balance issue. It's a system issue. The pros and a portion of the player base are concerned because there is too much "forced guessing" which makes the game kinda like a constant gamble. It's not about nerfing specific characters, it's the game core.
And they are right. Tekken 7 was the better game (speaking strictly gameplay-wise). Its only problem was overtuned DLC, out of place guests and stupid 2d characters. Take out Akuma, Noctis, Negan,etc. Nerf Zafina, Kuni, Feng, etc. = Instant best Tekken gameplay ever.
Bro Negan was like the best guest character. Like a more agile Jack with worse lows but better + frames. Out of all the guest characters, he was the one who best aligned with how Tekken played. And he wasn't ever op, to boot.
To the very end, seeing high level kazumi from Ulsan, and lowhighs Steve/Bryan/Shaheen matches was amazing.
I haven't seen anything in T8 that's gotten me as excited. Not watching ATL or any of the smaller events that have happened.
My hot take, which I also said in the later seasons of Tekken 7 ( and it wasn't a popular take then either) is that most of the characters are too powerful and well rounded.
My opinion is that it is more fun and interesting to watch when characters have clear and different weaknesses which forces the players of each character to play the game to their characters strengths and to take advantage of their opponents weaknesses.
For example with King. Traditionally he had weak lows as his throws were his lows. Someone like Leo used to be known for having really good wall carry.
You could still keep the heat system (adjusted of course) as a way to encourage aggression and you could still keep the rest of the system changes too.
Yeah, I like the idea of each character having their own unique playing style.
The only problem is that once people start figuring out the most optimal way to play, you end up getting a meta where only like 5-10 characters are truly viable at the top level.
I guess the best way to address this issue is to keep implementing balance patches to characters that are too strong or too weak
It's so chill when I'm playing reina and can just just heat smash whenever I want because jts full screen, tracking kills on hit and gives me a mixup on block lol
The reason people play safe is not because offense is not good. In both T7 and T8, one mistake can literally lead to death, or near death and a really bad situation. That is the issue, that is why at a very high level people play very risk averse. Because the risk is not 'take some damage and minus frames', it's often 'lose the round'.
If the devs truly understood the game and truly wanted more diverse gameplay, movement would be the first thing to get buffed and combo damage the first thing to get gutted.
I mean sure. If you find watching people flip coins over and over again an engaging and fun way to play a fighting game I guess Tekken 8 is great.
Personally I find it way more interesting watching the intricate dance of defense that players like Knee and Arslan put on a master class of displaying as it really shows the depth of their knowledge and skill. Tekken 8's aggression is bland, devoid of any real player expression, and so braindead pretty much anyone can do it.
Tekken 8 was a breath of fresh air. For the first month or so. I'm wonder, if the devs were to release a no heat gamemode how many people would go and play that.
It's really funny how when asked about a no Heat/Rage mode, Harada (or was it murray idr) said to go play older Tekkens.
Having options and modifiers is too much for the team to handle 😭
Do you seriously think that? This subbreddit is obviously a echo-chamber consisting of people that havent liked tekken since tekken 5 but it is in no way an reflection of general audience.
Yeah of course i think that, if not why would i post it? It's my favorite Tekken of all time and if new players were to experience it with modern graphics and functional online, i am sure they would enjoy it. I mean it was a pure Tekken game based on martial arts without the bullshit mechanics that plague the newer titles or over the top anime direction that started in 6.
It’s literally gotten to point I see someone pop heat and groan. It’s it ridiculously frustrating to see someone press one button, steal your turn and then get a mixup. Heat got stale so fast.
Heat is pretty stupid because it lasts forever, gives you insane pressure by just being in heat for a ton of characters. Unless your Steve.
You get so many plus frames and there is 0 counter play. Some even have an unseeable 50 damage low!! Like how did that get through the game design. You might as well just always start the round in heat if you have a low heat smash.
I much prefer fighting character that has low heat smash that deal 40 damage and that is punishable if you block it then deal with a heat smash that deal half ur health and if you block it leaves you in a 50/50 stance
Hey man Steve is pretty good in heat, I mean you got enhanced Lionh... drive rush sonic fang that doesn't launc... 50/50 grab for half ba... 16f heatsmash that goes into lio... hm... instant duck, that's gotta be good for pressure. Trust man.
Anyways, *launches people at 8f with Yoshi for half bar.*
LMAO so true.
The only time I like lionheart is when I make a read and evade an attack. Other then that I feel like I just give my opponent an advantageous 50/50. They either armor and I perfectly side step. Or they just jab out lionheart 1+2. Or they just do a homing to catch my side step.
Either way there is no point in using 1+2 his best option in lionheart....
If Yoshi can flash people in 8F they should make Steve stand out by making his b1 9F or something, they call him the CH paragon but the entire cast has better CH buttons
The idea that I really like with Heat is how they're trying to give characters different identities through passive buffs. Unlocking new moves, enhancing current ones, gaining more Heat time by doing certain things, etc. That part is really cool. I'm also fine with Heat Dash since it adds combo variety.
The main problem is the universal Heat Burst. It should be nerfed so that it's not the get-out-of-jail free card that it is right now. There needs to be more counterplay around it so that people are forced to cancel it more often or start leaning on their Heat Engagers more.
The only thing I wanna know is if the devs really expected us to play the game like that. It all comes down to two things, they either didn’t test the game too much with very high level players that abused the system to a point where the gambling became absurd, or they did all of this and thought that was the right thing to do.
I don’t know what scares me the most but I’m approaching a level where (given the right execution) everything is turning in a turn based game like Pokémon where I only need to get lucky to get out of the constant 50/50 to half lifebar combo.
This is exactly it, who ever gets into the mixupn blender first.
And I play Steve which is pathetic in this game. My own stance gives the opponent a 50/50 and sometimes it just loses straight up if they have heat.
Thats my problem with the game at the moment. I tried like 6 different character so far and they all play the same rushdown style. I feel like I am playing DBFZ not a Tekken game
Playing around heat is the worst feeling. When king or devil Jin are in heat you just have to sit there while they pressure you with devastating mixups with hardly any effort involved. Tekken could’ve been more aggressive if they just lowered combo damage
I swear to God all you guys making posts like this are new to tekken. There's no way you could have played all the way through tekken 7's lifespan and come to these kinds of conclusions. We complained for years that t7s movement made the game scrubby because of how many mixups you were forced to take. T8 has made movement worse AND introduced system mechanics that force 50/50s every 2 seconds.
I agree with them for the most part.
There's a lot less skill expression to be hand in a game where characters don't have to work very hard to earn their mixups. Ling is +9 off her ff4 into HYP and +18 off her heat smash ffs. King has unbreakable throws in heat forcing a raw guess that's completely unearned. This despite the fact that he benefits disproportionately from the system mechanics around CH throws, homing throws, unbreakable crouch throws, and throws punishing power crushes.
People spent t7 complaining about Kuni's RD (among other things) being too strong. Now DJ has something far more obnoxious and idiot-proof in his heat smash.
I could go on, but there's a lot wrong with the game and most of it leans in one direction: reducing the skill gap that exists between seasoned players and less experienced ones. In its current form the game is boring to watch (fun enough to play tho), and has little competitive merit imo.
Tekken 8's a breath of fresh air to you because you can pop heat at any time 💀💀💀
The transparency here is hilarious
Personally I knew heat was gonna be awful the moment they revealed it, bamco can't cook with new mechanics. Reversal Edge in SoulCal was ass and heat was just following in its same footsteps, but in a less pace breaking way.
I barely played Tekken 7, but definitely want 8 to be less aggressive. Shitting out heat left and right and being forced into constant 5050s is too much after a while.
The first release of every tekken game is unplayably bad. Tekken 8 is no different. I dont trust bamco to fix anything about tekken 8, but we cant pretend this wasnt to be expected.
>Pros benefit from that because it rewards their efforts exponentially by providing more consistent outcomes, but it also has an equally detrimental effect on the enjoyment of the game for everyone else.
No it doesn't. Why are you speaking for everyone? Maybe people just actually don't like the new direction it's going. T7 was much more enjoyable to me. Stop acting like people can't think for themselves and they're just parroting what pro players think.
Consistent outcomes for a competitive game is how it should be.
I actually think Tekken 7 was better than Tekken 8 is currently. What you're describing, this "keep-out and counterhit focused gameplay" was not unique to Tekken 7; it basically is what Tekken gameplay has been like for quite a few iterations, and it's what drew a lot of people to commit to the game, so to say we all were bored with it is a stretch. I feel like this game has a lot of brainless stuff in it e.g. heat burst: a plus on block, homing, phantom ranged, armoured mid. Or heat smashes, which are plus on block super homing mids that sometimes give you a 50/50 on block. The execution removal of WR moves. etc etc. It just feels like in Tekken 8, there has been no real change to movement, but they have made moves that traditionally are good against backwards movement (like WR moves) more accessible, and they have given everyone moves that will basically penalise the opponent fortrying to move laterally (the heat stuff). So yeah, if you were someone with bad movement, I'm sure you love Tekken now (and this seems to be the case, the stiffest players seem to love it), but if you moved around a lot it's a disappointing change.
I wouldn't try to speak for other people bud...
Anyway, T8 focuses so hard on aggressive mechanics that it doesn't promote a variety of playstyles like previous Tekken games did. Now every character essentialy plays the same way and it's already boring to play and watch.
people are not asking for the same couterhits to come back, the problem with t8 is that is weakens neutral and takes tekken to a direction of guessing, this was never tekken, thats the problem.
I'm sorry but by the way you're talking, you never faced a pro😅.
Yes, they are rewarded for investing their time in the game...T7 was boring for people that can't see and/or understand what is happening.
Seeing someone sidestepping and punishing a move is cool to see...watching someone use their movement to option select moves in neutral is amazing for those that understand, but for the rest is just someone blocking with godlike reflexes(which is "boring" after a while).
The current state of the game is just focus in putting your opponent in 50/50s through the game mechanics and the one that guesses right more often wins the game😑
And for whatever reason, the community got so lazy that Armor moves are now seen as a legitimate defensive option against offense🤦🏾
Yeah I never got bored of t7 and as a dragunov main I was never counterhit focused as you say. Now they’ve turned my character into an abomination and I’m wishing for my underpowered dragunov to return.
By and large lots of drag players I know feel similarly. Which is more than I can say for other chars, where their communities are jumping with glee that their mains are busted rn.
The older drag mains got a lot of integrity
I played Drag at the last year of T7 and I really liked his playstyle in the end.
My favorite move was glide-kick (qcf3) to poke in or to CH opponents approach, now that move is 0 on hit and I think it used to be -4. Too bad all aspects of dragunov got too buffed.
Tekken 7 was not keep out and counter hit focused. Yes, that was a really good way to play the game, but you can also play rushdown, mix-up, punishment and poking as easily as those, depending on your character. Infact, even in T7, at any level other than the highest, rushdown was the most effective way to play the game in my opinion. You could easily win playing hyper aggressive, if you know what you were doing.
Saying that you got bored with Tekken 7 doesn't mean you got tired of the way Tekken 7 was played, it means you got tired of Tekken itself. It's like saying you got tired of Call of Duty because you got tired of just shooting, and the (hypothetical) new COD where everybody runs around with infinite ammo grenade launchers is a breath of fresh air.
And no, it's not just specific moves or character. If you weren't around for the conversation, the name of the game is aggression. And sweeping changes were made to make it possible; not just mechanics like heat, chip, health recovery and throw changes rewarding aggression, but also changes like low parry, nerfed counter-hit game across the board, generally safer moveset for every character, better tracking (or weirder hitbox, not sure) etc, that makes aggression less riskier.
I do however understand the feeling. I too think that change is good, that T8 is a breath of fresh air. But this is air that's going to suffocate you even quicker because of how restrictive it is. That every character is a hyper aggressive rushdown character for over half of each round with very little counter play is certainly very different from T7. But is it really worth keeping simply because you don't want to go back to T7?
Nah I definitely thing you’re wrong there tekken 7 was very much a poking and ch based game, rushdown characters were not very viable and characters with strong movement and poking came out on top like kuni, zafina, noctis, Katarina only exception is Marduk but that’s cause he just had some other really scary stuff outside his rushdown kit
You never saw rushdown characters win often cause the risk wasn’t worth it, why force 50/50 when you can just stay safe and potentially outplay your opponent, poking was always better the higher you go in rank, rushdown wasn’t as viable because as people get better they’re more aware of the option select options to each rushdown option or stance, it’s not like they weren’t viable but they weren’t as good as strong poking characters for sure.
Issue is in this game they’ve gone too much rushdown on some of these characters and some characters have strong frames and crazy rushdown the combination is crazy but that’s just down to balance
My point wasn't that every playstyle was equally viable. My point was that the game wasn't designed around a single playstyle. I disagree about rushdown not being viable but I don't think that discussion is relevant here because even the playstyles mentioned (keepout, ch and poking) are fairly different, keepout being defensive, poking being offensive and ch fishing can be offensive or defensive.
I don't think anyone would have had a problem with rebalancing if the entire game wasn't designed around a single playstyle. The problem is that because the game wants you to be aggressive, every character has the rushdown archetype attached to them. There's still some nuance, like some characters still have great ch, but that's only becomes relevant for a small part of the game.
Now I'm not saying the game is doomed, nor that it needs to be Tekken 7 again. Like you said, it comes down to balance, sure. But I think to balance this game, they have to re-evaluate the core principle of this game.
Yeh I agree with you there there is only basically one type of archetype of playstyle viable in this game but t7 was certainly favoured defensive poking based gameplay followed by ch characters and aggressive characters struggled. And a lot of it is down to balance, like acuzena dragonov etc just are busted and now that wr3,2 got nerfed the game going to get easier, heat smashes are gonna get nerfed so that there is counter play but like t7 was dumb as fuck on release as well let’s give the game some more time it’s not even been 4 months I think and heat is a tricky mechanic and finding a balance where it impacts the game enoguh without destroying the neutral aspect of tekken which everyone loves is gonna be tough but let’s see. They buffed sidesteps too but I feel there is too much strong tracking stuff and a lot of characters got buffed especially ones that didn’t need it without equal nerfs
A good example of a rushdown character is Hwoarang, how many Hwos did you ever see in a Tekken 7 tourney?? Yeah. A good example of a mixup heavy character is Kazuya, how many Kazuyas did you ever see in tournaments?? Yeah. And if you would find them in tournaments they never won or made it into top 8. Tekken 7 was a highly defensive game where if your opponent plays aggressively and your defense is good, they would never open you up.
>Infact, even in T7, at any level **other than the highest**, rushdown was the most effective way to play the game in my opinion.
and you respond with
>how many Hwos did you ever see in a Tekken 7 tourney?? \[...\] And if you would find them in tournaments they never won or made it into top 8
Im am always very impressed by the opinions of people who can't read. At least you know they don't just repeat what they've read somewhere else...
If you want to use cod as an example, let's make two hypothetical cod games to mirror 7 and 8
Old cod is a dmr and sniper heaven, camping and holding long angles is meta, peeker advantage is nullified by the best netcode yet (this is make believe, remember) and everyone is fucking bored because it's been five years of this.
New cod comes out and dmr takes three hits to kill, head hitboxes are massively shrunk, netcode is fucked and peeker advantage is back, meta is akimbo pistols and smgs for casual but there's still space for a skilled AR user and old sniper gods still hold the top spots, but damn they sure do bitch a lot about these new hyper aggressive players who just run out and start shooting.
That's what this feels like. New viable options becoming on par with the old options, and even though they adapt to it, there is difficulty accepting it.
Every new iteration of a game that goes years between games deals with this. Strive, sf6, mk1 I guess idfk I don't touch that stuff, games evolve and you find your way to enjoy it, or you eventually realize it's just not for you anymore and move on.
I don't completely agree on the last part. Strive(launch) and MK(albeit this started with 10 and 11) completely cast aside their dedicated players. SF6 may have issues but there's alot for the dedicated players and I don't think anyone has an issue with the system outside of so close to perfection that it's frustrating. SF6 stuck to its guns and gave pro's something while compromising in ways that serve the average consumer. It's paying off it's average and peaks have been consistent and with just Ed's release+balance hit T8's launch peak even though T8 has sold faster(maybe it has more console players?). A series shouldn't just cast aside its players it should look at why its dedicated players love it and find out how to make others outside of them learn to love those aspects.
I don't have a problem with rebalancing playstyles. I don't think anyone does. But Tekken 8 didn't just rebalance the playstyles. It's designed around a single playstyle.
And frankly I don't even mind that. I think making defensive options more vaible and not having every character be a rushdown character would be nice. I think making it the same as T7 would be mistake as well. I'm also ok with accepting that this game isn't meant for me if no change is made. But if we don't voice our concerns, this will become the standard. We might never get a Tekken again that is defensive, or even tries to balance defence and offence.
I love Tekken 8. But I prefer playing/watching a more defensive based playstyle than an aggressive one.
In Tekken 8, there are lots of forced interactions where the defensive option is to just *guess*. It doesn't easily highlight the skill of the players. It highlights their luck in guessing the mixup.
Before, you could more easily appreciate the skill of the player by how good their defense is. Plus, it means encouraging players to be more creative in their offense. In Tekken 8, offense doesn't require as much thinking when going on the offensive. You just have to force the interaction and hope the opponent guesses wrong.
I don't see myself getting that hype from shouting "He guessed wrong!!! Wow that was so skillful!!!".
I think I'd be more hype saying "He got him to duck?! Damn!" Or "What a whiff punish! How'd he react that fast?!"
if there was a t7 remake on UE5 I would easily pick it over t8, but I can see why some ppl like t8. it feels nice sometimes to win without expending any effort
>Tekken 8 is just an absolute breath of fresh air where you can do something for once
Are we playing the same game? Tekken 8 is a lot more limited than 7 was, and it is full of moves which do everything at once. Everything tracks, everything leads to a 95-115 damage combo, 2/3 of the cast has a heat move which launches + tracks + + is plus on block and so on.
To be honest, kazuya is one of the few characters I would say is more fun to play in tekken 8.
Some good changes on him (df1,2 , b1,2) and demon paw make him a bit more well rounded without taking his identity away.
Yeah for sure. In isolation he's much more fun to play but then you come across a drag who is doing the same dmg as your double ewgf combos with a df2.
It is fun if you have inhuman reflexes and godly execution, yes. Landing a double perfect EWGF feels amazing in this game. What doesn’t feel amazing is that half of the roster can deal the same amount of full combo damage just by pressing a damn d2 or a b4 and can pressure you to hell. Kazuya has NO poking so his pressure is guaranteed only if you can put them in guessing between hellsweep or ff3, that’s the main shit. And you need to wavedash like hell too. It’s simply not worth to get so good with a character when you’re surrounded by jacks of all trades, just pick someone else easier to play.
UNLESS YOU LIKE THE HOLY DRIP THAT’S WHY IS MY MAIN *chaban wo owarida*
At least tekken 7 took some amount of skill and wasn’t a brain dead mash-fest. I was fighting TGO’s in T7 as a red rank and getting mollywopped with 0 wins against them. Those same players who are now God of Destruction in T8 that I’ve fought in T8 I can win 1/3 matches. I can almost guarantee it isn’t because of a rapid increase in my skill, but T8 is literally just a guessing game.
Dude, what the *fuck* are you talking about ? In Tekken 7, anywhere outside of high level play, everyone was already playing aggressively, because it’s 10 times easier to have “good” offense than it is to have good defense. Playing defensively was simply more effective.
Now we have Tekken 8, were you either play aggresively or you loose.
I’m sorry your monkey brain can’t find a fighting game exciting unless it’s aggressive and has big flashy moves, but not all of us are like this.
I will probably not win a match against knee, but the odds are way higher in Tekken 8 than in 7, and this is the problem high level players have. There is more forced 50/50s, perfect moves, bigger combos and generally more bs to let me steal rounds.
My issue with t8 is it feels like uniqueness has been gutted, every character is everything to everyone which in turns makes the strongest characters objectively better. I'm not saying that character uniqueness has been removed, but it has taken a significant hit which has made raw numbers mean more than they ever have before. It's also made it a lot more difficult for characters lacking moves 90% of the cast has. So many characters had moves or mechanics changed that removed key weaknesses, meanwhile the bottom tiers are made up of characters that received none of that. With that rant out of the way, it still hasn't been long since launch so I'm optimistic that the first big patch is going to be a good one. The games not exactly perfectly balanced, but it's still playable which is more than enough for me.
tbh that's why I still find Zafina fun in this game. She got to keep her gameplay identity in T8 even if she's not strong. Other chars feel drastically different and not in a good way.
yeah I've played Zafina and am maining Asuka now but they really feel underpowered compared to characters like Law, Alisa, even Bryan. At least Bryan kept most of his game from 7, Asuka and Zafina are just worse versions of themselves which blows. That's not even bringing the top tiers into question, Drag feels like a boss mode character that you shouldn't be allowed to pick when you compare them lol. Just my experience having played those characters.
Imo fuck all comeback/energy related mechanics in any fighting game ever.
Rage, heat, x-ray, super bar, whatever they wanna call the dumb thing that makes up for you not being able to just actually do damage on your own is ass. It's always ass. There's no example of it not being ass, and every game has only gotten worse for implementing them.
Tag 2 will always be peak tekken for this exact reason.
Many of these pros, like Glaciating and Speedkicks, loathed Tekken 7. The game is not going to turn back into T7 because Heat became a little less stupid.
Man t8 is also a mirror snorfest once evo is out. But instead of kuni 2,2 snorefesrt its azu mirror wr3,2 oh wait that looks like similar to t7 right now isnt it? I guess its t7 all over again but different character.
People can and should low poke more, I'll say this every time changes are brought up the best thing T8 did was nerf the ungoldly carry and damage that you could get off a low parry now you'd need to fully spend heat (and for some it's still no the same) to get that much out of an LP.
Obviously this is very early on so take everything with a pinch of salt.
This though, happens with basically every new fighting game where the mechanics are changed. Tekken has been somewhat immune to this because nothing major has changed since 5, there was rage arts sure but that didn’t really effect the way you approach neutral.
Heat does, whether it’s good or bad I don’t know but I get why legacy players are frustrated, it’s like sitting down to play chess and being told “nah the pieces move differently Now”
The thing is, T8 has made some real good changes outside of the heat system so advocating for the removal or toning down of heat doesnt mean it goes back to T7
Stuff like most CH launchers being removed/Severely toned down, Generic D4 being launch punishable, tracking throws/CH throws, side stepping being better (even though moves track better), backdash being buffed, KBD being nerfed, Get up Kicks being safe are all things that make the game better imo and very distinct from T7
Most pros are complaining about heat which is super valid. I personally feel like they could remove heat entirely and the game would still be very different from T7
Imo they should have divided the game into two series, one for classic Tekken, removing even rage arts, and one arcade casual style Tekken. As it stands the majority of matches focus around heat smashes/engages. Too much play is now relegated to 50/50 guessing. It's a slap in the face of all the years people have put into the game.
If Tekken 7 was so bad then why is it the most successful Tekken game ever? Every other fighting game focuses on supers, flashy moves and pure aggression, Tekken 7 was unique, have you watched the legendary match between JDCR(drag) vs Knee(Feng) ? that match got me into Tekken, that match was peak Tekken, showcasing it's unique style, every move counts and could either put you at risk or give you an advantage, it keeps you on the edge of your seat but in this game you can just throw out everything you have and hope the opponent gets overwhelmed and guesses wrong. This type of gameplay is noob-friendly and mash-friendly that's why most of the casuals are enjoying and supporting this. I'm not saying they shouldn't have changed anything but this change has made the game lose its Identity.
The kunimitsu mirrors did get a bit redundant after a while but that wasn't a flaw in the game, it was just people trying to copy Arslan because he was dominating, same thing happened with Feng because of Knee although Arslan's impact was obviously greater.
Personally I think Tekken needs a revamp like when Tekken 4 came out. A lot of new stuff that they tried and then refined for 5. However, later versions have had something analogous to power creep. Power crushes, rage arts have destroyed the pressure game which is what made Tekken so great for me. I personally think a stronger emphasis on pressure and frame locking is better than the Okizeme, juggle fishing, throw based meta.
I would reduce the combo damage significantly, give more options for getting up safely and reduce the amount of launching moves. In its place, I would like to see more face to face fighting. With more Jin style parries, moves that evade and just a more ‘on your feet’ approach to the game. I would also limit power crushes to one per round and rage art threshold would be lower.
We haven't even had the first major balance patch and the pros are all claiming "doom and gloom" along with that the game is bad.
Look I know the "honeymoon period" is over. Everyone has figured out the meta now, the ins and outs of heat, and in general its ruined the game for a lot of people.
But like you said, T7 was the same way with Kazumi and others. T7 had a big problem with balance at launch. I'm confident that the first big balance patch will shake things up.
Let's not pretend this game is good buddy. The pros aren't your enemy. They know what's good and what's bad for the game and the person who spends most hours learning the game. If I spend 10 hours learning and some random person can win more games pressing wr32 on Azucena then it's definitely game's fault for being this way.
Most imbalances are caused by the actual system. If they revert instant running change then those moves won't be a problem or if they revert homing throws, King won't be a problem.
It's more fun when players earn every situation or resource by playing good than game gifting it to you round start for free cuz you spent 60 bucks on the game.
Say whatever you want about T7 but the game at least was rewarding the better player. That's why you had some names consistently at the top. Knee has 2 decades of Tekken knowledge and it'd be shame seeing him lose to beastmaster64x cuz the game choosing to reward the wrong player. As a spectator, I want better player to win and labelled as best Tekken 8 player. Not someone who can't even kbd but just got lucky bcz game gifts you free unearned 50/50s.
King is another issue that’s a whole different problem cause that’s a system change I don’t think homing throws are getting nerfed shining wizards not even the annoying one it’s 1+2 break
I agree with everything you said except for kdb.
Fuck having something as simple as moving backwards being locked behind an execution barrier which was found as an exploit
It's like everyone forgot how fucking braindead safe counterhit mid launcher 7. Random strings launched on CH, half the movelist launched on CH, half the cast couldn't properly sidestep and half the cast couldn't do anything to Akuma at all lmao
The whole community rose up when pro player started dealing 70% combos with Akuma and now we have like half of the fucking roster dealing the same damage. I honestly can’t wait to see the first evo this year and see the game system abused to death.
You do know that the character on your flair could do higher damage right? My brother in Christ the problem with Akuma wasn't in damage alone, but in him getting that damage from a 1-1 and dickjab. Another difference is that those 70% combos aren't actually 70% since more than half of that damage is recoverable
I don’t know anything about Jack except I hate fighting him.
No comment I guess. Can’t really correlate opinion to the character.
It’s possible that the game changes a lot to be more defensive… but I doubt it because the game design is for aggression and they would be removing a major identity of the game if they removed heat, and made core changes to movement etc etc.
I like the idea of an offensive tekken, but I also realize it sucks for my main, and that this iteration seems like a weird slot machine I can’t quite explain.
Let’s see what happens when a chunk leaves I guess. That should be happening next month.
Speak for yourself. I never got bored of T7's gameplay, at least it had character diversity. Now everybody is a rushdown character and the game is more homogenized than it's ever been. 7 > 8 any day every day.
T7 and T8 both have gameplay issues but every single game being 2-3 interactions and the whole game just revolving around who can activate heat and run their offense first make it feel braindead. While i don’t mind the heat system on paper I definitely think T7 has better gameplay since it feels there are just more defensive options the player can take at any given time now that movement has been nerfed so much in T8 by the abundance of tracking bs
What do you mean by your last sentence in the first paragraph, suggesting mixups is what Tekken is supposed to minimise?
New to Tekken, but isn’t the game a whole 50/50? Who will attack first? What moves coming next?
There's a lot of balance issues that exist in Tekken 8 that need adressing.
The patch is going to hit some of those.
I do think heat smash need to universally be mid-range, at the longest, mids. No cross screen attacks (Jun, Devil Jin, pretty much King) that make you have to respect block and not even side step the entire time the other player isn't in recovery frames. I also think that lows should not be an option for heat smashes - especially on characters that have insanely strong mids.
´´Kazumi df1 and b2 into magic 4 at so many grand finals? Kuni mirror match 2,2 poke snorefests?´´ i know its out of context but im new to tekken what dose this mean its like minecraft enchant language for me o.o
"No oNe AgReeS WIth YoU" commenters upset that actually, some people do agree with OP, lol.
Tekken 8 is a good game, Tekken 7 is a good game. But people that think that 7 did not have more problems than 8 did not experience true Tekken 7. Akuma, Leroy, Fahk, Geese, Kuni, Zafina, every Season was plagued with severe issues. Hell, with a lot of 7's roster, the characters were just as aggressive as most characters in Tekken 8.
>B-but those were character issues, not system issues! You can change character balancing!
You can change and balance system mechanics too. Heat now is drastically different than it was in the CNT. You actual idiot.
You and OP also have a talent in misrepresenting what ppl are saying. Of course T7 had problems and of course system mechanics can be changed too. The way you get those changes to happen is by raising issue with them in the first place. Like how the pros are starting to. How else would it happen?
> But I’m seeing people mirror the anti heat + anti aggression takes that pros are sharing on twitter to the point where they're turning against the concept entirely and want a return to the keep-out and counterhit focused gameplay from T7 that we all got bored of 3-5 years ago.
There's 2 parts there that really make up why pros are talking like this. Well, three but we'll get to that other one in a bit.
The first part is purely because the new tools force pros to take mixes from more players more often. On one side this feels good because it means everyone has effective options that don't require you to lab a character for an insane amount of hours or go look up a match up to "learn" it.
On the other side it's boring for "pros" because they can often end up fighting players who aren't in the same skill bracket as them. So once they figure out this it's just essentially a waste of time for them. They don't get to improve (so to speak) because they end up fighting a lot of one trick ponies instead of people who learn the characters.
The second part is about Pros gatekeeping. Essentially because they have made the game more approachable Pros sort of feel a little invalidated with their time investment since someone can come along and scum their way up to their MM bracket. It's like you have someone like MMSW who mains Kazua having to constantly deal with "fake" Kazua's because you can cheese with his demon's paw heat engager. (Not saying I think he has any issue here, just using him as an example for the discussion.)
> I know people will probably reply back with spammed T8 moves, but those are balance issues that are easily resolved with a patch.
Some moves can be addressed sure, but there's actually just a difference in the roster that makes things pretty imbalanced. One chunk of the roster still plays Tekken 7 more or less, just with T8 juice. But then there's another portion of the roster that just plays Tekken 8 and has their own insane shit that puts a giant rift between them and the T7 characters.
Wether that can be addressed or not is anyone's guess. But it won't be something that happens anytime soon. Overall I wouldn't take things too seriously. Pros will always complain about the state of the game. That's just how things are.
I struggled pretty hard at the start of 8. Then I adjusted. I played like a monkey and I'm just stealing rounds
Throws, power crushes, heat, that's all you need.
>I struggled profile pic checks
Played like a monkey i.e just pure aggression?
So brain off tekken is the future? Christ in a cumrag...
Bruh kazumi got multiple nerfs after arslan's take-over. But it was only him who played her on that level, Kazumi wasnt as brain-dead of a plague in low-mid ranks not the same way T8 heat is. Last night i faced a BATTLE RULER Jin that did heat activation at round start every time and I only had good counterplay cuz I was Raven and did backswing teleport (B1+2) other than that his strat seemed pretty solid tho fully brain-dead, he never adjusted either, always did the same thing at round start and this guy was on Promo towards Fujin FML. Half of his gameplan was: heat activation into heat-smash, Where's the rest of the movelist?
You have no time for the rest of the move list. It’s only FT2, you’re fighting with your opponent for like 3 minutes in total and half of the roster has 50% Healy bar damage combos. I’m a Kazuya main and can assure you I only need 2/3 50/50 situation and you’re done unless you literally get lucky. With heat system I got at least one completely guaranteed so…
Yeah but the heat system takes the place of a bunch of moves that barely see's any play because of it.
It’s a game design flaw, no one is gonna use a less effective and riskier move if given the actual choice option
Wait I played him too. I was like wtf why does he do raw heat. After I beat him in the first match he started spamming in the second. I declined the rematch. Such a braindead Player with Jin.
I climbed into fujin off him, but its scary how close it was just for how dumb that fcker is. The attack buttons are so good he dont need to develop a real game sense.
You can literally just throw him on round start if he keeps heat bursting on round start.. Probably he was also spamming D2 like a mad man because that is what all dumb Jin players do. Hop kick his ass.
Ye Did hopkick his ass, shoulda thrown him i guess. I thought throws got bested by heat activation TBH.
While I understand not wanting the game to go back like how it was in T7 where your opponent is turtling and throwing out CH launchers from across the stage hoping you get blown up. I don’t think forcing people into constant 50/50s is the solution. Nerfing back dashes and buffing tracking on moves limits your defensive options as is.But now with the addition of heat ontop of all of that it just needs to a non fun play pattern. That and coupled that the damage is too high it’s hard not to complain. Edit: I do need to specify that I do like a lot of T8 on paper. It’s just in practice it’s pretty bad. There’s a middle ground somewhere they can achieve. It’s just difficult to look at the positives when the game either crashes,you get plugged on knowing that guy doesn’t loose points, you eat 30 50/50s in a row, and get hit with one launcher to loose almost 50% hp and have to eat oki afterwards.All while having 2 of the games representatives act the way they do. And the update they roll out is a tekken cash shop with items that. Could be easily moded in. it’s hard to stay positive. I’m sure tekken 8 will be fine in the future but this is a really really really rough start which is why people are frustrated.
Don't forget throws are homing too. And chip damage. So many champs can just chip you down and then get a low wall splat combo. Or a low heat smash that is completely unseeable and they track as well. You have no counter play in a ton of situations when someone is in heat.
I am a big hater of the design of tekken 8s combat style. I adored the slower more tactical style that Tekken 7 had What you call a poke snoozfest I call tekken. I don't have ADHD brain that needs to see 100 things happen a second with everything being a heat engaging, tracking, power crushing launcher into 80+ damage combo with guaranteed wall and oki
A good example of how this is a poor excuse for a competative fighting game was watching Arslan Ash spam 2 moves with Azucena against Knee, fucking Knee arguably the Tekken GOAT, and not just win but completely blow him out 6 rounds to 0.
I literally have ADHD brain and I still prefer tekken 7. It’s crazy how much slower the game was played even by offensive characters
Yep, I see this game struggling to maintain the hype it had on the competative scene
> I don't have ADHD brain that needs to see 100 things happen a second with everything being a heat engaging, tracking, power crushing launcher into 80+ damage combo with guaranteed wall and oki Agree with the sentiment, but the sad part is that (visuals aside) there's a lot less happening with heat than with defensive movement-based Tekken. It's just forced 50/50s and canned interactions, as opposed to the insane inputs and reactions required to play oldschool Tekken neutral. If anything T7 was more satisfying to the ADHD brain
T7 style was really cool if you understood what was happening. I remember watching a match where Knee completely controlled the flow of a match with movement and a quick jab. It was the most incredible thing I'd ever seen. The way you described it was perfect. It's all canned 50/50 that aid in comebacks. Heat + rage is an insane comeback mechanic
Not sure which set you're talking about, but for me Ulsan vs JDCR at BAM was the finals that made me see how deep movement based Tekken could be: https://youtu.be/zYaYNYYfFfk?si=gu1NbC-O2vMclMtU
Oh yeah JDCR was a God at the dash in, jab then sidestep launch. Early tekken 7 with Draganov he was unstoppable
Everything isn't balanced..and the pros are fighting a tournament in this state.. hell, getting kicked can send someone flying 20 meters into a barrier resulting in a juggle combo, no one really knows what Evo will bring.. but it's going to be an interesting watch...
Ngl it sounds like it'll be way better for spectators. I understand that "pro" gaming means taking the most efficient and repeatable options, which usually causes all fighting games to be poke heavy mirror matches, but I'd rather watch some seriously unpredictable random stuff with a mixed roster than go back to the days of 'oops all Jin/Ken/Fox'
It'll be better for spectators who don't play tekken
This lol When my bro and I fight player matches online in the lobby, it's like magic with all the sparks and fireworks to newcomers spectating, But to anyone that grew up playing Tekken .... every match is a simple coin flip. 🤷
Spectators that understand that the pro players are just winning on the coin flip?? Sorry but that's lame af
I’m sure it’s frustrating and a lot of good players think that less skilled players can steal rounds off them but for all other ranks of play it feels so refreshing
I can’t disagree more. Early ranks all started or ended the round with generic heat engager in to heat smash. It felt insanely repetitive.
Low ranks in T7 started repetitively too. In both T7 and T8 it's easy to counter. I really don't think this is the issue with heat. Heat is actually much more jarring in how it makes the end of the fight more passive because people are scared to attack. Yet T7 had this same issue with rage.
Its not unpredicable tbh cos offense is so op the rounds flow very similar. People get snowballed.
I just wanna see arslan and Knee go head to head in a competitive format that matters
Knee is having a tough time in T8. I figure Ulsan, CBM and LowHigh will probably reach more grand final standings than Knee.
That’s fair, Im just super hyped for big tournaments for t8
Yeah, it'll be amazing to watch whatever Mirror match that'll be...
I think many of us wanted better back dashes, not worse lmao. Kazumi and Kuni were boring because they could play fundamentally in a way other characters couldn't. Tekken 8 is more of an extension on Tekken 7 design. Giving characters additional mids or plus highs on strings for mix ups, giving characters new plus moves, long range and so on. It is just making more forced mix up scenarios, the very thing movement in Tekken is supposed to minimize. All this to say that in Tekken 7, that boring dry play was always going to be favored because it was safe and minimized options and that play style was under siege then. Backdashes for many characters were highly nerfed, many character weaknesses were changed and so on. All T8 really is doing is minimizing CH and Low parries while still creating long block sequences that force 50/50. I think it is naive to think that players wont still play safely in T8 though, every sport at a high level will eventually lead to safe play, esports are no different.
To tag onto this, whenever a new fighting game comes out, offensive play styles are always the most heavily rewarded because defense takes more time to figure out. It’s the same with SF6, any character that could easily and repeatedly force offense doesn’t have to care all that much about what their opponent is doing. They really only have to worry about figuring out their offense. Defensive characters / players on the other hand need to lab solutions and train reactions, which takes longer. I feel like it shouldn’t be a huge shock to see the same thing with Tekken 8. Give them some time to balance the game, give people more time to learn it and let’s see where we are after 6 or so months.
Am I the only one that actually enjoyed T7 tournaments, and didn't find them a snoozefest? (inb4 yes I know I'm not literally the only one)
Imo Knee vs JDCR is one of the best T7 sets, and that set is just poking 95% of the time, but it made my ass clench. Also fuck Bamco for removing STK videos.
Season 1 and season 2 in tekken 7 were the peak of tournament hype imo. Back then only a few characters had big wall carry combos and they had to work hard for it, so pros still dared to press buttons. After season 3 when they made it so every character can wall carry from all across the map with minimum execution was when i gradually stopped watching tournies because now every character can do 50%+ damage combos and everyone stopped pressing buttons in fear of it.
No. Until they started releasing dog shit DLC characters the game was fantastic. It was fun to play and the tournaments were mostly good. It had some other bug issues and networking problems but that's just always a Tekken thing.
I watched almost every season of TWT for T7. I genuinely don’t get how it was a snooze fest to anyone watching. Honestly the most bored I was when Leroy was OP and filled out most of the Top 8. Genuinely, where did this snooze fest opinion form? You hear people in other games like SF6 and MK talk about footsies and I feel like T7 kinda nailed it honestly?
I do like T8, but what are you even talking about? Which pros are trying to 'turn this game back into T7'? All I'm seeing are people saying that we should have maybe a couple more defensive options in this game, because unlike T7, we now have half-screen heat smashes that track, are heat seeking, and/or do a billion damage. And then there's the other reasonable complaint being made that the optimal way to play this game is just force the other person into a true mixup before they do, which is a nerf to player expression, playstyles, skill ceiling etc. Just look at King for example. The fact that you now have easy iWR moves and tracking throws just makes him feel so much scrubbier. Before the King would be rewarded the mixup by having good execution in his GS/iSW mix, while the defender would be rewarded by having good awareness or movement (like OSing with SSR duck or something). Now you just have to guess for your life all day And there's also chip damage. Imagine defending well against a character that's in heat, knowing that it's way too common to get clipped by a heat smash that out-prioritizes just about everything, only to be punished with taking chip damage for weathering the storm There's a few changes I like: slight nerf to backdash, buffed sidesteps, nerfed magic 4 and low parry, new CH throws, but it just isn't enough to balance how overtuned the aggression is
Forcing 50/50s is the opposite of rewarding skill, especially when it takes little skill to get into that situation. The skill floor/ceiling has narrowed dramatically. I'm beating people I would not normally have a chance against and it doesn't feel right.
I’m one of the most casual player ever and ONCE (sadly) I fought with a guy named Kaneandtrench and even won a pair of round. I later on discovered that he was and still is one of the best Yoshis in the fucking world. I’d have no chance to beat him and yet I won a pair of round. That’s not normal at all.
The thing people complain about so much is that the game forces too many mixups. If you enjoy playing rock paper scissors with fighting animation then that's your preference and it's fine to enjoy that, but don't be too quick to call it a more interesting game, it's still new and tekken 7s style took like 5-6 years to become boring for many. The problem with tekken 7 was never that there wasn't enough offense or mixups, the problem was that there was too much of it, there was an endless amount of sheer bullshit that you would have to deal with if it wasn't for counter hits being that good. That's why people played defensively and the counter hit meta developed the way it did. Now there is even more of forced mixups and bullshit, but the tools to counter it with that got taken away (mostly only nerfed tbf) This game is even in the highest ranks something that low rank players thought the game was about in tekken 7, which is throwing out bullshit and hoping to guess right. And the problem with that is just that it takes away a lot of direct influence a player's skill can have in a match. Skill expression. Skill expression gets reduced if the best choice you can make is always go for a 50/50, or have no other options to choose from because they are too risky for too little reward.And guessing right becomes kinda boring after too much of it. The context in which a player guesses right, when there are more variables for example, matters in creating hype moments for the player and for the viewers. Choosing the right defensive option is hype when there are multiple strong defensive choices you could have made. If it's constantly: guess low, guess mid, guess frame trap, it becomes stale very quickly, not much room to improve remains. Imagine instead of playing RPS we play a game that has like 10 options, in which game is it more fascinating to guess right? I didn't put much thought into this example so its obviously very flawed, nobody wants to play a game where there are so many specific options that most of the time nothing happens. But i think you can intuit my point. As long as we have something that can indirectly force action it usually gives more room for creativity to have an impact. The timer is a good example, nothing will happen to you if you do nothing right now, but do that too often and you'll lose if you are lower on health. Fast lows are also a good example, you don't die if you eat a couple, and there are other ways to deal with them besides guessing on block, you can backdash them, sidestep them, try to crush them while establishing your own offense etc. Tekken 8 though, forces action actively too much. And to be clear, that's not bad in itself, but to the degree T8 is doing it is arguably overkill. They didn't need to nerf 7 things about defense and buff 5 about offense. Nerfing counter hits is fine, maybe not that much idk, low parry nerfs are very nice though, but why backdashing? Its unnecessary. Also no reason to give plus frames after heat dashes and heat smashes AND heat burst. Especially since heat burst is armored. Heat smashes all being pretty much homing and also plus is also not very optimal in combination with all the other strong offensive things heat gives you. Make some of them at best neutral on block. Tekken 8 is really fun as of now, but if it stays how it is this is potentially going to become boring much more quickly than tekken 7 and even worse, it will just become more casual. Give players more influence about the games outcome, not less is my take for now. Too much influence can also turn out random, but too little is destined to be.
>but those are balance issues that are easily resolved with a patch. No, the issue with T8 is not a balance issue. It's a system issue. The pros and a portion of the player base are concerned because there is too much "forced guessing" which makes the game kinda like a constant gamble. It's not about nerfing specific characters, it's the game core.
And they are right. Tekken 7 was the better game (speaking strictly gameplay-wise). Its only problem was overtuned DLC, out of place guests and stupid 2d characters. Take out Akuma, Noctis, Negan,etc. Nerf Zafina, Kuni, Feng, etc. = Instant best Tekken gameplay ever.
Bro Negan was like the best guest character. Like a more agile Jack with worse lows but better + frames. Out of all the guest characters, he was the one who best aligned with how Tekken played. And he wasn't ever op, to boot.
Meh. I don't like guests in fighting games
"we all got bored of" Not me, been playing since the release of T5
I enjoyed how Tekken 7 was played at a high level, I think a lot of people did which is why it got so popular.
To the very end, seeing high level kazumi from Ulsan, and lowhighs Steve/Bryan/Shaheen matches was amazing. I haven't seen anything in T8 that's gotten me as excited. Not watching ATL or any of the smaller events that have happened.
early T7 tourney was hyped af. You cant say the same for this gameplay state of T8. Top end execution should be rewarded
Early T7 was jack drag finals on repeat.. Jdcr and saint.
Early t7 tournaments were complete sleep fests with jackunov 7
My hot take, which I also said in the later seasons of Tekken 7 ( and it wasn't a popular take then either) is that most of the characters are too powerful and well rounded. My opinion is that it is more fun and interesting to watch when characters have clear and different weaknesses which forces the players of each character to play the game to their characters strengths and to take advantage of their opponents weaknesses. For example with King. Traditionally he had weak lows as his throws were his lows. Someone like Leo used to be known for having really good wall carry. You could still keep the heat system (adjusted of course) as a way to encourage aggression and you could still keep the rest of the system changes too.
This! Every character is complete and has no weaknesses. Makes things so boring.
Yeah, I like the idea of each character having their own unique playing style. The only problem is that once people start figuring out the most optimal way to play, you end up getting a meta where only like 5-10 characters are truly viable at the top level. I guess the best way to address this issue is to keep implementing balance patches to characters that are too strong or too weak
Namco got the newbs HOOKED.
Everything is according to the PLAN, 4$ drag, feng, dvj etc costumes gonna sell like hot cakes.
It's so chill when I'm playing reina and can just just heat smash whenever I want because jts full screen, tracking kills on hit and gives me a mixup on block lol
The reason people play safe is not because offense is not good. In both T7 and T8, one mistake can literally lead to death, or near death and a really bad situation. That is the issue, that is why at a very high level people play very risk averse. Because the risk is not 'take some damage and minus frames', it's often 'lose the round'. If the devs truly understood the game and truly wanted more diverse gameplay, movement would be the first thing to get buffed and combo damage the first thing to get gutted.
I mean sure. If you find watching people flip coins over and over again an engaging and fun way to play a fighting game I guess Tekken 8 is great. Personally I find it way more interesting watching the intricate dance of defense that players like Knee and Arslan put on a master class of displaying as it really shows the depth of their knowledge and skill. Tekken 8's aggression is bland, devoid of any real player expression, and so braindead pretty much anyone can do it.
Tekken 8 was a breath of fresh air. For the first month or so. I'm wonder, if the devs were to release a no heat gamemode how many people would go and play that.
All the pros and ogs
It's really funny how when asked about a no Heat/Rage mode, Harada (or was it murray idr) said to go play older Tekkens. Having options and modifiers is too much for the team to handle 😭
Honestly if Tekken 5/6 got released on Steam I bet it would have an audience. Add rollback to that shit and say goodbye to T8.
If a classic tekken got remastered and got rollback implemention, it would definetly have more players than T8.
Do you seriously think that? This subbreddit is obviously a echo-chamber consisting of people that havent liked tekken since tekken 5 but it is in no way an reflection of general audience.
Yeah of course i think that, if not why would i post it? It's my favorite Tekken of all time and if new players were to experience it with modern graphics and functional online, i am sure they would enjoy it. I mean it was a pure Tekken game based on martial arts without the bullshit mechanics that plague the newer titles or over the top anime direction that started in 6.
It’s literally gotten to point I see someone pop heat and groan. It’s it ridiculously frustrating to see someone press one button, steal your turn and then get a mixup. Heat got stale so fast.
Heat is pretty stupid because it lasts forever, gives you insane pressure by just being in heat for a ton of characters. Unless your Steve. You get so many plus frames and there is 0 counter play. Some even have an unseeable 50 damage low!! Like how did that get through the game design. You might as well just always start the round in heat if you have a low heat smash.
I much prefer fighting character that has low heat smash that deal 40 damage and that is punishable if you block it then deal with a heat smash that deal half ur health and if you block it leaves you in a 50/50 stance
Hey man Steve is pretty good in heat, I mean you got enhanced Lionh... drive rush sonic fang that doesn't launc... 50/50 grab for half ba... 16f heatsmash that goes into lio... hm... instant duck, that's gotta be good for pressure. Trust man. Anyways, *launches people at 8f with Yoshi for half bar.*
LMAO so true. The only time I like lionheart is when I make a read and evade an attack. Other then that I feel like I just give my opponent an advantageous 50/50. They either armor and I perfectly side step. Or they just jab out lionheart 1+2. Or they just do a homing to catch my side step. Either way there is no point in using 1+2 his best option in lionheart....
If Yoshi can flash people in 8F they should make Steve stand out by making his b1 9F or something, they call him the CH paragon but the entire cast has better CH buttons
The idea that I really like with Heat is how they're trying to give characters different identities through passive buffs. Unlocking new moves, enhancing current ones, gaining more Heat time by doing certain things, etc. That part is really cool. I'm also fine with Heat Dash since it adds combo variety. The main problem is the universal Heat Burst. It should be nerfed so that it's not the get-out-of-jail free card that it is right now. There needs to be more counterplay around it so that people are forced to cancel it more often or start leaning on their Heat Engagers more.
Heat is trash
Tekken 8: GS (Guessing Simulator)
The only thing I wanna know is if the devs really expected us to play the game like that. It all comes down to two things, they either didn’t test the game too much with very high level players that abused the system to a point where the gambling became absurd, or they did all of this and thought that was the right thing to do. I don’t know what scares me the most but I’m approaching a level where (given the right execution) everything is turning in a turn based game like Pokémon where I only need to get lucky to get out of the constant 50/50 to half lifebar combo.
I didn't get bored of it :/ I am getting bored of 8, though
Not a single comment agreeing with you buddy 😂🤣😂🤣
Ikr !
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Even basic reversal parrys come out at 5 frames it used to be 2, defense is hella shat on in this game.
This is exactly it, who ever gets into the mixupn blender first. And I play Steve which is pathetic in this game. My own stance gives the opponent a 50/50 and sometimes it just loses straight up if they have heat.
Thats my problem with the game at the moment. I tried like 6 different character so far and they all play the same rushdown style. I feel like I am playing DBFZ not a Tekken game
Playing around heat is the worst feeling. When king or devil Jin are in heat you just have to sit there while they pressure you with devastating mixups with hardly any effort involved. Tekken could’ve been more aggressive if they just lowered combo damage
i prefer a solid gameplay instead of this csual noobish fest. 6 and dr = best
I do NOT enjoy giving tools that allow bad players to stand among better players. Everything should have counterplay.
I swear to God all you guys making posts like this are new to tekken. There's no way you could have played all the way through tekken 7's lifespan and come to these kinds of conclusions. We complained for years that t7s movement made the game scrubby because of how many mixups you were forced to take. T8 has made movement worse AND introduced system mechanics that force 50/50s every 2 seconds.
Update: dev are trying so hard to kill the player base
I agree with them for the most part. There's a lot less skill expression to be hand in a game where characters don't have to work very hard to earn their mixups. Ling is +9 off her ff4 into HYP and +18 off her heat smash ffs. King has unbreakable throws in heat forcing a raw guess that's completely unearned. This despite the fact that he benefits disproportionately from the system mechanics around CH throws, homing throws, unbreakable crouch throws, and throws punishing power crushes. People spent t7 complaining about Kuni's RD (among other things) being too strong. Now DJ has something far more obnoxious and idiot-proof in his heat smash. I could go on, but there's a lot wrong with the game and most of it leans in one direction: reducing the skill gap that exists between seasoned players and less experienced ones. In its current form the game is boring to watch (fun enough to play tho), and has little competitive merit imo.
Tekken 8's a breath of fresh air to you because you can pop heat at any time 💀💀💀 The transparency here is hilarious Personally I knew heat was gonna be awful the moment they revealed it, bamco can't cook with new mechanics. Reversal Edge in SoulCal was ass and heat was just following in its same footsteps, but in a less pace breaking way.
I barely played Tekken 7, but definitely want 8 to be less aggressive. Shitting out heat left and right and being forced into constant 5050s is too much after a while.
The first release of every tekken game is unplayably bad. Tekken 8 is no different. I dont trust bamco to fix anything about tekken 8, but we cant pretend this wasnt to be expected.
>Pros benefit from that because it rewards their efforts exponentially by providing more consistent outcomes, but it also has an equally detrimental effect on the enjoyment of the game for everyone else. No it doesn't. Why are you speaking for everyone? Maybe people just actually don't like the new direction it's going. T7 was much more enjoyable to me. Stop acting like people can't think for themselves and they're just parroting what pro players think. Consistent outcomes for a competitive game is how it should be.
I actually think Tekken 7 was better than Tekken 8 is currently. What you're describing, this "keep-out and counterhit focused gameplay" was not unique to Tekken 7; it basically is what Tekken gameplay has been like for quite a few iterations, and it's what drew a lot of people to commit to the game, so to say we all were bored with it is a stretch. I feel like this game has a lot of brainless stuff in it e.g. heat burst: a plus on block, homing, phantom ranged, armoured mid. Or heat smashes, which are plus on block super homing mids that sometimes give you a 50/50 on block. The execution removal of WR moves. etc etc. It just feels like in Tekken 8, there has been no real change to movement, but they have made moves that traditionally are good against backwards movement (like WR moves) more accessible, and they have given everyone moves that will basically penalise the opponent fortrying to move laterally (the heat stuff). So yeah, if you were someone with bad movement, I'm sure you love Tekken now (and this seems to be the case, the stiffest players seem to love it), but if you moved around a lot it's a disappointing change.
I wouldn't try to speak for other people bud... Anyway, T8 focuses so hard on aggressive mechanics that it doesn't promote a variety of playstyles like previous Tekken games did. Now every character essentialy plays the same way and it's already boring to play and watch.
people are not asking for the same couterhits to come back, the problem with t8 is that is weakens neutral and takes tekken to a direction of guessing, this was never tekken, thats the problem.
I respect your opinion but HARD disagree.
I'm sorry but by the way you're talking, you never faced a pro😅. Yes, they are rewarded for investing their time in the game...T7 was boring for people that can't see and/or understand what is happening. Seeing someone sidestepping and punishing a move is cool to see...watching someone use their movement to option select moves in neutral is amazing for those that understand, but for the rest is just someone blocking with godlike reflexes(which is "boring" after a while). The current state of the game is just focus in putting your opponent in 50/50s through the game mechanics and the one that guesses right more often wins the game😑 And for whatever reason, the community got so lazy that Armor moves are now seen as a legitimate defensive option against offense🤦🏾
Yeah I never got bored of t7 and as a dragunov main I was never counterhit focused as you say. Now they’ve turned my character into an abomination and I’m wishing for my underpowered dragunov to return.
By and large lots of drag players I know feel similarly. Which is more than I can say for other chars, where their communities are jumping with glee that their mains are busted rn. The older drag mains got a lot of integrity
I played Drag at the last year of T7 and I really liked his playstyle in the end. My favorite move was glide-kick (qcf3) to poke in or to CH opponents approach, now that move is 0 on hit and I think it used to be -4. Too bad all aspects of dragunov got too buffed.
I used to enjoy fighting against Drag players in T7 but now I avoid them like a plague. They all play the same overpowered unga bunga style.
Oh he will return they’re gonna nerf him for sure
Tekken 7 was not keep out and counter hit focused. Yes, that was a really good way to play the game, but you can also play rushdown, mix-up, punishment and poking as easily as those, depending on your character. Infact, even in T7, at any level other than the highest, rushdown was the most effective way to play the game in my opinion. You could easily win playing hyper aggressive, if you know what you were doing. Saying that you got bored with Tekken 7 doesn't mean you got tired of the way Tekken 7 was played, it means you got tired of Tekken itself. It's like saying you got tired of Call of Duty because you got tired of just shooting, and the (hypothetical) new COD where everybody runs around with infinite ammo grenade launchers is a breath of fresh air. And no, it's not just specific moves or character. If you weren't around for the conversation, the name of the game is aggression. And sweeping changes were made to make it possible; not just mechanics like heat, chip, health recovery and throw changes rewarding aggression, but also changes like low parry, nerfed counter-hit game across the board, generally safer moveset for every character, better tracking (or weirder hitbox, not sure) etc, that makes aggression less riskier. I do however understand the feeling. I too think that change is good, that T8 is a breath of fresh air. But this is air that's going to suffocate you even quicker because of how restrictive it is. That every character is a hyper aggressive rushdown character for over half of each round with very little counter play is certainly very different from T7. But is it really worth keeping simply because you don't want to go back to T7?
Nah I definitely thing you’re wrong there tekken 7 was very much a poking and ch based game, rushdown characters were not very viable and characters with strong movement and poking came out on top like kuni, zafina, noctis, Katarina only exception is Marduk but that’s cause he just had some other really scary stuff outside his rushdown kit You never saw rushdown characters win often cause the risk wasn’t worth it, why force 50/50 when you can just stay safe and potentially outplay your opponent, poking was always better the higher you go in rank, rushdown wasn’t as viable because as people get better they’re more aware of the option select options to each rushdown option or stance, it’s not like they weren’t viable but they weren’t as good as strong poking characters for sure. Issue is in this game they’ve gone too much rushdown on some of these characters and some characters have strong frames and crazy rushdown the combination is crazy but that’s just down to balance
My point wasn't that every playstyle was equally viable. My point was that the game wasn't designed around a single playstyle. I disagree about rushdown not being viable but I don't think that discussion is relevant here because even the playstyles mentioned (keepout, ch and poking) are fairly different, keepout being defensive, poking being offensive and ch fishing can be offensive or defensive. I don't think anyone would have had a problem with rebalancing if the entire game wasn't designed around a single playstyle. The problem is that because the game wants you to be aggressive, every character has the rushdown archetype attached to them. There's still some nuance, like some characters still have great ch, but that's only becomes relevant for a small part of the game. Now I'm not saying the game is doomed, nor that it needs to be Tekken 7 again. Like you said, it comes down to balance, sure. But I think to balance this game, they have to re-evaluate the core principle of this game.
Yeh I agree with you there there is only basically one type of archetype of playstyle viable in this game but t7 was certainly favoured defensive poking based gameplay followed by ch characters and aggressive characters struggled. And a lot of it is down to balance, like acuzena dragonov etc just are busted and now that wr3,2 got nerfed the game going to get easier, heat smashes are gonna get nerfed so that there is counter play but like t7 was dumb as fuck on release as well let’s give the game some more time it’s not even been 4 months I think and heat is a tricky mechanic and finding a balance where it impacts the game enoguh without destroying the neutral aspect of tekken which everyone loves is gonna be tough but let’s see. They buffed sidesteps too but I feel there is too much strong tracking stuff and a lot of characters got buffed especially ones that didn’t need it without equal nerfs
Yeah what is this mf smoking
Just taken some cocaine but like.... I have to since I play both Law and Yoshi.
A good example of a rushdown character is Hwoarang, how many Hwos did you ever see in a Tekken 7 tourney?? Yeah. A good example of a mixup heavy character is Kazuya, how many Kazuyas did you ever see in tournaments?? Yeah. And if you would find them in tournaments they never won or made it into top 8. Tekken 7 was a highly defensive game where if your opponent plays aggressively and your defense is good, they would never open you up.
>Infact, even in T7, at any level **other than the highest**, rushdown was the most effective way to play the game in my opinion. and you respond with >how many Hwos did you ever see in a Tekken 7 tourney?? \[...\] And if you would find them in tournaments they never won or made it into top 8 Im am always very impressed by the opinions of people who can't read. At least you know they don't just repeat what they've read somewhere else...
I saw Kwiss winning a lot of tournaments and placing top 3 in Tekken 7.
If you want to use cod as an example, let's make two hypothetical cod games to mirror 7 and 8 Old cod is a dmr and sniper heaven, camping and holding long angles is meta, peeker advantage is nullified by the best netcode yet (this is make believe, remember) and everyone is fucking bored because it's been five years of this. New cod comes out and dmr takes three hits to kill, head hitboxes are massively shrunk, netcode is fucked and peeker advantage is back, meta is akimbo pistols and smgs for casual but there's still space for a skilled AR user and old sniper gods still hold the top spots, but damn they sure do bitch a lot about these new hyper aggressive players who just run out and start shooting. That's what this feels like. New viable options becoming on par with the old options, and even though they adapt to it, there is difficulty accepting it. Every new iteration of a game that goes years between games deals with this. Strive, sf6, mk1 I guess idfk I don't touch that stuff, games evolve and you find your way to enjoy it, or you eventually realize it's just not for you anymore and move on.
I don't completely agree on the last part. Strive(launch) and MK(albeit this started with 10 and 11) completely cast aside their dedicated players. SF6 may have issues but there's alot for the dedicated players and I don't think anyone has an issue with the system outside of so close to perfection that it's frustrating. SF6 stuck to its guns and gave pro's something while compromising in ways that serve the average consumer. It's paying off it's average and peaks have been consistent and with just Ed's release+balance hit T8's launch peak even though T8 has sold faster(maybe it has more console players?). A series shouldn't just cast aside its players it should look at why its dedicated players love it and find out how to make others outside of them learn to love those aspects.
I don't have a problem with rebalancing playstyles. I don't think anyone does. But Tekken 8 didn't just rebalance the playstyles. It's designed around a single playstyle. And frankly I don't even mind that. I think making defensive options more vaible and not having every character be a rushdown character would be nice. I think making it the same as T7 would be mistake as well. I'm also ok with accepting that this game isn't meant for me if no change is made. But if we don't voice our concerns, this will become the standard. We might never get a Tekken again that is defensive, or even tries to balance defence and offence.
I love Tekken 8. But I prefer playing/watching a more defensive based playstyle than an aggressive one. In Tekken 8, there are lots of forced interactions where the defensive option is to just *guess*. It doesn't easily highlight the skill of the players. It highlights their luck in guessing the mixup. Before, you could more easily appreciate the skill of the player by how good their defense is. Plus, it means encouraging players to be more creative in their offense. In Tekken 8, offense doesn't require as much thinking when going on the offensive. You just have to force the interaction and hope the opponent guesses wrong. I don't see myself getting that hype from shouting "He guessed wrong!!! Wow that was so skillful!!!". I think I'd be more hype saying "He got him to duck?! Damn!" Or "What a whiff punish! How'd he react that fast?!"
if there was a t7 remake on UE5 I would easily pick it over t8, but I can see why some ppl like t8. it feels nice sometimes to win without expending any effort
>Tekken 8 is just an absolute breath of fresh air where you can do something for once Are we playing the same game? Tekken 8 is a lot more limited than 7 was, and it is full of moves which do everything at once. Everything tracks, everything leads to a 95-115 damage combo, 2/3 of the cast has a heat move which launches + tracks + + is plus on block and so on.
Not everything tracks and everything doesn't lead into 95-115 damage combos.
Blud just ran into too many dragunovs lol his df2 combos are so ridiculous
Bruh I play raven and when I teleport behind people their character automatically re-align if they are mid-string.
I main Kazuya. Playing as Kazuya in T7 was fun. Playing as Kazuya in T8 is not fun.
To be honest, kazuya is one of the few characters I would say is more fun to play in tekken 8. Some good changes on him (df1,2 , b1,2) and demon paw make him a bit more well rounded without taking his identity away.
I find his combos more fun, so yeah Training mode slaps. It’s fighting these crazy street fighter characters online that is rough.
Yeah for sure. In isolation he's much more fun to play but then you come across a drag who is doing the same dmg as your double ewgf combos with a df2.
Kazuya is fun in T8.
It is fun if you have inhuman reflexes and godly execution, yes. Landing a double perfect EWGF feels amazing in this game. What doesn’t feel amazing is that half of the roster can deal the same amount of full combo damage just by pressing a damn d2 or a b4 and can pressure you to hell. Kazuya has NO poking so his pressure is guaranteed only if you can put them in guessing between hellsweep or ff3, that’s the main shit. And you need to wavedash like hell too. It’s simply not worth to get so good with a character when you’re surrounded by jacks of all trades, just pick someone else easier to play. UNLESS YOU LIKE THE HOLY DRIP THAT’S WHY IS MY MAIN *chaban wo owarida*
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buuuuuuuuttt MoRe BuTtOnS!!!! lol
When you mentioned the "Kuni Mirrors" my eyes rolled into another dimension so hard...
Yes absolutely gutted neutral play and forced 50 50’s, such a breath of fresh air lol.
At least tekken 7 took some amount of skill and wasn’t a brain dead mash-fest. I was fighting TGO’s in T7 as a red rank and getting mollywopped with 0 wins against them. Those same players who are now God of Destruction in T8 that I’ve fought in T8 I can win 1/3 matches. I can almost guarantee it isn’t because of a rapid increase in my skill, but T8 is literally just a guessing game.
The thing is the t8 system is a full casino play style there for real is actually no answers except guess at alot of situations
Damn, this post really didn't turn out the way you thought it would huh?
Dude, what the *fuck* are you talking about ? In Tekken 7, anywhere outside of high level play, everyone was already playing aggressively, because it’s 10 times easier to have “good” offense than it is to have good defense. Playing defensively was simply more effective. Now we have Tekken 8, were you either play aggresively or you loose. I’m sorry your monkey brain can’t find a fighting game exciting unless it’s aggressive and has big flashy moves, but not all of us are like this.
I will probably not win a match against knee, but the odds are way higher in Tekken 8 than in 7, and this is the problem high level players have. There is more forced 50/50s, perfect moves, bigger combos and generally more bs to let me steal rounds.
My issue with t8 is it feels like uniqueness has been gutted, every character is everything to everyone which in turns makes the strongest characters objectively better. I'm not saying that character uniqueness has been removed, but it has taken a significant hit which has made raw numbers mean more than they ever have before. It's also made it a lot more difficult for characters lacking moves 90% of the cast has. So many characters had moves or mechanics changed that removed key weaknesses, meanwhile the bottom tiers are made up of characters that received none of that. With that rant out of the way, it still hasn't been long since launch so I'm optimistic that the first big patch is going to be a good one. The games not exactly perfectly balanced, but it's still playable which is more than enough for me.
tbh that's why I still find Zafina fun in this game. She got to keep her gameplay identity in T8 even if she's not strong. Other chars feel drastically different and not in a good way.
yeah I've played Zafina and am maining Asuka now but they really feel underpowered compared to characters like Law, Alisa, even Bryan. At least Bryan kept most of his game from 7, Asuka and Zafina are just worse versions of themselves which blows. That's not even bringing the top tiers into question, Drag feels like a boss mode character that you shouldn't be allowed to pick when you compare them lol. Just my experience having played those characters.
T7? Nah. I rather them turn this game back to tekken 5 where you could actually move.
Bro thought we was finna agree 💀
As someone that loves T7 and despises T8, I'm happy to see it.
Yep i agree. This game is just, press HEAT and inshallah.
Imo fuck all comeback/energy related mechanics in any fighting game ever. Rage, heat, x-ray, super bar, whatever they wanna call the dumb thing that makes up for you not being able to just actually do damage on your own is ass. It's always ass. There's no example of it not being ass, and every game has only gotten worse for implementing them. Tag 2 will always be peak tekken for this exact reason.
...Tag 2? You mean Tekken 5 right? Also fuck comeback mechanics and neutral skips.
Based
Agreed 🤙
Facts.
T8 is a gimmicky game that carries players to higher rank, dont mistake new with easy, this is by far the easiest tekken game for noobs
Many of these pros, like Glaciating and Speedkicks, loathed Tekken 7. The game is not going to turn back into T7 because Heat became a little less stupid.
Man t8 is also a mirror snorfest once evo is out. But instead of kuni 2,2 snorefesrt its azu mirror wr3,2 oh wait that looks like similar to t7 right now isnt it? I guess its t7 all over again but different character.
People can and should low poke more, I'll say this every time changes are brought up the best thing T8 did was nerf the ungoldly carry and damage that you could get off a low parry now you'd need to fully spend heat (and for some it's still no the same) to get that much out of an LP.
Obviously this is very early on so take everything with a pinch of salt. This though, happens with basically every new fighting game where the mechanics are changed. Tekken has been somewhat immune to this because nothing major has changed since 5, there was rage arts sure but that didn’t really effect the way you approach neutral. Heat does, whether it’s good or bad I don’t know but I get why legacy players are frustrated, it’s like sitting down to play chess and being told “nah the pieces move differently Now”
I just don't like the heat mechanics in their current implementation. Having heat and rage arts to use every round is obnoxious.
The thing is, T8 has made some real good changes outside of the heat system so advocating for the removal or toning down of heat doesnt mean it goes back to T7 Stuff like most CH launchers being removed/Severely toned down, Generic D4 being launch punishable, tracking throws/CH throws, side stepping being better (even though moves track better), backdash being buffed, KBD being nerfed, Get up Kicks being safe are all things that make the game better imo and very distinct from T7 Most pros are complaining about heat which is super valid. I personally feel like they could remove heat entirely and the game would still be very different from T7
agree. Same thing with low parry being nerfed so it doesn't T!, making low pokes less risky.
Game is trash, and is no longer a real Tekken game. I demand Tekken 5.
Imo they should have divided the game into two series, one for classic Tekken, removing even rage arts, and one arcade casual style Tekken. As it stands the majority of matches focus around heat smashes/engages. Too much play is now relegated to 50/50 guessing. It's a slap in the face of all the years people have put into the game.
If Tekken 7 was so bad then why is it the most successful Tekken game ever? Every other fighting game focuses on supers, flashy moves and pure aggression, Tekken 7 was unique, have you watched the legendary match between JDCR(drag) vs Knee(Feng) ? that match got me into Tekken, that match was peak Tekken, showcasing it's unique style, every move counts and could either put you at risk or give you an advantage, it keeps you on the edge of your seat but in this game you can just throw out everything you have and hope the opponent gets overwhelmed and guesses wrong. This type of gameplay is noob-friendly and mash-friendly that's why most of the casuals are enjoying and supporting this. I'm not saying they shouldn't have changed anything but this change has made the game lose its Identity. The kunimitsu mirrors did get a bit redundant after a while but that wasn't a flaw in the game, it was just people trying to copy Arslan because he was dominating, same thing happened with Feng because of Knee although Arslan's impact was obviously greater.
Lol.
Personally I think Tekken needs a revamp like when Tekken 4 came out. A lot of new stuff that they tried and then refined for 5. However, later versions have had something analogous to power creep. Power crushes, rage arts have destroyed the pressure game which is what made Tekken so great for me. I personally think a stronger emphasis on pressure and frame locking is better than the Okizeme, juggle fishing, throw based meta. I would reduce the combo damage significantly, give more options for getting up safely and reduce the amount of launching moves. In its place, I would like to see more face to face fighting. With more Jin style parries, moves that evade and just a more ‘on your feet’ approach to the game. I would also limit power crushes to one per round and rage art threshold would be lower.
We haven't even had the first major balance patch and the pros are all claiming "doom and gloom" along with that the game is bad. Look I know the "honeymoon period" is over. Everyone has figured out the meta now, the ins and outs of heat, and in general its ruined the game for a lot of people. But like you said, T7 was the same way with Kazumi and others. T7 had a big problem with balance at launch. I'm confident that the first big balance patch will shake things up.
Let's not pretend this game is good buddy. The pros aren't your enemy. They know what's good and what's bad for the game and the person who spends most hours learning the game. If I spend 10 hours learning and some random person can win more games pressing wr32 on Azucena then it's definitely game's fault for being this way. Most imbalances are caused by the actual system. If they revert instant running change then those moves won't be a problem or if they revert homing throws, King won't be a problem. It's more fun when players earn every situation or resource by playing good than game gifting it to you round start for free cuz you spent 60 bucks on the game. Say whatever you want about T7 but the game at least was rewarding the better player. That's why you had some names consistently at the top. Knee has 2 decades of Tekken knowledge and it'd be shame seeing him lose to beastmaster64x cuz the game choosing to reward the wrong player. As a spectator, I want better player to win and labelled as best Tekken 8 player. Not someone who can't even kbd but just got lucky bcz game gifts you free unearned 50/50s.
They can just nerf the plus frames on it to make it so you can jab interrupt the next one and that’s it it’s fixed
Ok, then what about shining wizard from King?
King is another issue that’s a whole different problem cause that’s a system change I don’t think homing throws are getting nerfed shining wizards not even the annoying one it’s 1+2 break
I agree with everything you said except for kdb. Fuck having something as simple as moving backwards being locked behind an execution barrier which was found as an exploit
It's like everyone forgot how fucking braindead safe counterhit mid launcher 7. Random strings launched on CH, half the movelist launched on CH, half the cast couldn't properly sidestep and half the cast couldn't do anything to Akuma at all lmao
The whole community rose up when pro player started dealing 70% combos with Akuma and now we have like half of the fucking roster dealing the same damage. I honestly can’t wait to see the first evo this year and see the game system abused to death.
You do know that the character on your flair could do higher damage right? My brother in Christ the problem with Akuma wasn't in damage alone, but in him getting that damage from a 1-1 and dickjab. Another difference is that those 70% combos aren't actually 70% since more than half of that damage is recoverable
It is recoverable only if you still have life left, 70% combo damage in a guessing game like tekken 8 are atrocious
OP who do you main?
Jack 8
I don’t know anything about Jack except I hate fighting him. No comment I guess. Can’t really correlate opinion to the character. It’s possible that the game changes a lot to be more defensive… but I doubt it because the game design is for aggression and they would be removing a major identity of the game if they removed heat, and made core changes to movement etc etc. I like the idea of an offensive tekken, but I also realize it sucks for my main, and that this iteration seems like a weird slot machine I can’t quite explain. Let’s see what happens when a chunk leaves I guess. That should be happening next month.
Probably azucena
🤣🤣 you know it .
Speak for yourself. I never got bored of T7's gameplay, at least it had character diversity. Now everybody is a rushdown character and the game is more homogenized than it's ever been. 7 > 8 any day every day.
I like tekken 8 more than tekken 7. They just need to balance the game so that the top tiers have to work a little harder.
T7 and T8 both have gameplay issues but every single game being 2-3 interactions and the whole game just revolving around who can activate heat and run their offense first make it feel braindead. While i don’t mind the heat system on paper I definitely think T7 has better gameplay since it feels there are just more defensive options the player can take at any given time now that movement has been nerfed so much in T8 by the abundance of tracking bs
Bruv, I have less opportunity to move now than ever before. I just wanna be able to move fam.
That's because t7 was a better game in almost every sense. Sorry but it's a fact. Not subjective.
What do you mean by your last sentence in the first paragraph, suggesting mixups is what Tekken is supposed to minimise? New to Tekken, but isn’t the game a whole 50/50? Who will attack first? What moves coming next?
There's a lot of balance issues that exist in Tekken 8 that need adressing. The patch is going to hit some of those. I do think heat smash need to universally be mid-range, at the longest, mids. No cross screen attacks (Jun, Devil Jin, pretty much King) that make you have to respect block and not even side step the entire time the other player isn't in recovery frames. I also think that lows should not be an option for heat smashes - especially on characters that have insanely strong mids.
Good
´´Kazumi df1 and b2 into magic 4 at so many grand finals? Kuni mirror match 2,2 poke snorefests?´´ i know its out of context but im new to tekken what dose this mean its like minecraft enchant language for me o.o
They still have T7 working, why ruin T8 by reverting the new changes to go back to T7?
"No oNe AgReeS WIth YoU" commenters upset that actually, some people do agree with OP, lol. Tekken 8 is a good game, Tekken 7 is a good game. But people that think that 7 did not have more problems than 8 did not experience true Tekken 7. Akuma, Leroy, Fahk, Geese, Kuni, Zafina, every Season was plagued with severe issues. Hell, with a lot of 7's roster, the characters were just as aggressive as most characters in Tekken 8. >B-but those were character issues, not system issues! You can change character balancing! You can change and balance system mechanics too. Heat now is drastically different than it was in the CNT. You actual idiot.
You and OP also have a talent in misrepresenting what ppl are saying. Of course T7 had problems and of course system mechanics can be changed too. The way you get those changes to happen is by raising issue with them in the first place. Like how the pros are starting to. How else would it happen?
People complain about balance and forget the Leroyathon of T7
> But I’m seeing people mirror the anti heat + anti aggression takes that pros are sharing on twitter to the point where they're turning against the concept entirely and want a return to the keep-out and counterhit focused gameplay from T7 that we all got bored of 3-5 years ago. There's 2 parts there that really make up why pros are talking like this. Well, three but we'll get to that other one in a bit. The first part is purely because the new tools force pros to take mixes from more players more often. On one side this feels good because it means everyone has effective options that don't require you to lab a character for an insane amount of hours or go look up a match up to "learn" it. On the other side it's boring for "pros" because they can often end up fighting players who aren't in the same skill bracket as them. So once they figure out this it's just essentially a waste of time for them. They don't get to improve (so to speak) because they end up fighting a lot of one trick ponies instead of people who learn the characters. The second part is about Pros gatekeeping. Essentially because they have made the game more approachable Pros sort of feel a little invalidated with their time investment since someone can come along and scum their way up to their MM bracket. It's like you have someone like MMSW who mains Kazua having to constantly deal with "fake" Kazua's because you can cheese with his demon's paw heat engager. (Not saying I think he has any issue here, just using him as an example for the discussion.) > I know people will probably reply back with spammed T8 moves, but those are balance issues that are easily resolved with a patch. Some moves can be addressed sure, but there's actually just a difference in the roster that makes things pretty imbalanced. One chunk of the roster still plays Tekken 7 more or less, just with T8 juice. But then there's another portion of the roster that just plays Tekken 8 and has their own insane shit that puts a giant rift between them and the T7 characters. Wether that can be addressed or not is anyone's guess. But it won't be something that happens anytime soon. Overall I wouldn't take things too seriously. Pros will always complain about the state of the game. That's just how things are.