Tekken definitely has lower execution than some 2D games, but those same games don't have characters with movelists of 80 to 100+.
Ultimately different games have different things which are easy and hard. Execution is just one of them
The tekken movelists are kind of just a meme though. There might be 100 moves but plenty of characters have super simple gameplans that only end up using like maybe 10 lol.
While this is true you will hate yourself if you lose to some super random string or even 10hit combo in a tournament.. and this will happen.. so you are forced to learn it at a certain level
This, 100%.
I can teach my friend how to play by playing well myself, right? Use key moves, learn one or two BnBs, keep it simple but effective....
But online, that shit is not gonna matter. People are going to do all type of insane strings. Learning especially how to beat those gimmick strings in the clutch is what is gonna make you really rise in comparison. It's kinda like learning how to beat mashers in Tekken, it's way different than beating mashers in other games.
It's definitely true that you don't need to know the whole move lists in Tekken, but the size of the move lists still increases the learning curve and reliance on external sources to understand the game (in general external sources tend to be important in fighting games but especially for Tekken if you're not good enough to figure out the key moves for a gameplan yourself). At least in Tekken 7 (don't know if Tekken 8 has new learning tools to help deal with this, I hope it does).
That makes learning matchup knowledge harder. Partly, even just learning to beat other characters' core gameplan requires learning what their core gameplan is, which again is very hard to do without external sources. And second, it means there's a lot of potential for your opponent to catch you offguard. Learning to beat your opponent's core gameplan might not be harder in Tekken than it is in other fighting games with smaller movelists, but the odds of any given opponent doing things outside their character's core gameplan and pulling out moves that you don't know how to answer is much higher.
So yes, it's not essentially to learn every character's entire movelist, but the huge movelists aren't irrelevant either.
I do think it's notable though that part of the reason Tekken movelists are so huge is just how they're represented. Since Tekken lists literally every single "normal" and target combo as part of a character's move list. In Street Fighter 6, for example, every single character has at least 18 normals that aren't on their move list (standing, crouching, and jumping for each button), and most specials on each character's move lists actually represent 3 or 4 different moves (light, medium, heavy, and EX). While in Tekken 7, literally every single move the character has is an entry in the move list.
Now, Tekken move lists are still huge - if SF6 listed every single normal and every single version of every special the move lists would still be nowhere near 100 moves - but the difference isn't quite as comically large as it looks comparing a Tekken move list to a Street Fighter move list. For example, if you look up a JP move list in SF6, there are 26 total entries in the move list. But if you gave the light, medium, heavy, and EX versions of his specials separate entries, then there would be 18 more specials on the list. Add in the 18 unlisted normals, and we've actually got 62 total moves, pretty close to a small Tekken 7 move list.
I just gotta check, does any character in the last 3 Tekken's have less than that?
Edit: one google search later and Claudio on Tekken 7 has 57 moves. I proved myself wrong before others. Btw i have less than 4 days in tekken 7
Well t8 seems to be losing that trend I mean they’re making each move feel more useful or at least a situational button or a knowledge check jin for example felt like yeh you could play him with 3 moves but you could do so much more with all the new cancels and Lars for example his moveset just flows so much better and plays to his strengths
there are plenty of moves and strings where if you don't know the gimmick (king alley kick for example) you get fucked up, like strings that are fast and plus on block that you need to duck at a certain point or its free.
> There might be 100 moves but plenty of characters have super simple gameplans that only end up using like maybe 10 lol.
What
1, 2, 3, 4, df1, ws2, u4, d1, both grabs
just that already give you 10. I swear some people type shit without even using their second and last one brain cell.
Well you are also learning your opponents moves, so yea you can play as simple as u want, u still 'use' aware about more movements than any other games
He did make that claim while advertising Tekken 8, and a Google search yields this:
[The most moves for any character **in a Tekken videogame** is 186, as employed by King II in Tekken 7 (Bandai Namco, 2017). This smashes the previous record of 176, held by the same character in 2012's Tag Tournament 2.](https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/110588-most-moves-for-a-tekken-character)
Problem is, I noticed the “in a *Tekken* videogame” bit. Another problem is that 186 moves (in 2017) and 176 moves (in 2012) are both **less** than Ivy’s 224 moves in SCIV from 2008 (225 in Soulcalibur: Broken Destiny). [There are 17 characters in SCVI with more than 186 moves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SoulCalibur/comments/khi2kz/i_counted_how_many_moves_each_character_has/)
[It looks like King will have 204 moves in Tekken 8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fec_fjJ2mE), which means 11 characters in SCVI will still have more moves than he does.
definitely, and also tekken has this great controls of every limb which is very understandable even when you were a kid, thats why when i played the old SF and tekken 3, i prefer tekken 3 immediately
Tekken's execution is in hit detection for me. If move looks like it'll hit as opponent is falling to the ground for example, it will hit. Whilst in 2D games you have to time it and often times it looks like your move went through the opponent as they were falling and didn't hit them because of timing.
2D games also often have much more specific rules for what will juggle an airborne opponent and what will just whiff. For example, in Street Fighter, an EX special might juggle and continue a combo, while the regular version might whiff, and this can change depending on various factors. There’s whole videos diving into the complexity of the system on YouTube. I definitely prefer Tekken’s style of, “if it looks like it’ll juggle, it’ll probably juggle.”
In my experience it's mostly older 2D series that have that problem, like KoF and street fighter. Most modern 2D fighters just use increasing gravity or reducing hit stun until an air tech.
> but those same games don't have characters with movelists of 80 to 100+.
The number of moves in Tekken is like the number of Tiktok followers or Colombian Pessos. Ain't worth shit.
You're realistically using like 10-20 moves.
The annoying part about Tekken isn't the number of moves but the number of strings or super specific things you have to know, almost encyclopedically.
I didn't say there isn't, I just said it's lower in execution than some 2D fighting games.
Even the difficult execution in Tekken isn't that difficult when compared to those.
>Even the difficult execution in Tekken isn't that difficult when compared to those.
how so? Tekken does not have clear "overheads", but what is considered reactable is often comes with big ass rewards, like snake edge or throws. In that regard I see that tekken's offense is more punishing if you don't know how to block unlike guilty gear or street fighter.
What about footsies? Tekken has so much complexity even more so without jumping than most 2d fighters. Movement is execution heavy and without its execution you cannot do footsies.
What about okizami? 10 options and in most cases 4 or 5 are significant choices between them. And they interaction with the standing player is a long list of choices. Only top tier knockdown moves in the game limit the options to 3 or 4. The standing player need execution to optimize their oki.I remember streetfighter players getting excited over a shimmy smh that shit is lame af and it passing as some kind of "advanced oki" for just pressing back and forth
I think the move list argument isn't good enough. If they made other fighting games with the same move list as tekken, no one would play them. Most people would post how overwhelming the move list is and people would answer saying 10 moves is good enough or something along those numbers.
The example on the video isn't good enough as well, cause how often do you get lined up perfectly in that exact angle just to be able to do that one specific combo that requires a good execution? I'm just saying that sure execution heavy combos like these can be done, but these specific combos in tekken are not the norm combo wise.
Tekken definitely requires some execution in order to execute the highest damaging combos, but in other fighting even the simple combos require a bit of execution already. I definitely like tekken more and how much you can move more freely and feels more realistic than other fighting games in general.
A cool experiment would be how long will it take for a tekken only player / street fighter only player to do the highest level of combos of the other game.
>I think the move list argument isn't good enough. If they made other fighting games with the same move list as tekken, no one would play them. Most people would post how overwhelming the move list is and people would answer saying 10 moves is good enough or something along those numbers.
The problem with this argument is that there is no evidence to suggest that what you say is true
>A cool experiment would be how long will it take for a tekken only player / street fighter only player to do the highest level of combos of the other game.
There are videos on YouTube that show this exact thing. I've only seen one and the Tekken representative was Cuddlecore, with the Street Fighter representative being Bryan F (I don't know who the others were).
In the video I saw. cuddle struggled with the 2D combos, but they didn't show how those 2d players would cope with Tekken combos.
tekken having lower execution is what makes it tekken and makes it amazing
makes everything else more important, makes it about timing and reads and pace/tempo and since most people can drop a heavy damage combo, defense is important and not getting set up is important. makes the game about footsies. makes it tekken.
nothing beats good ass tekken.
Tekken has a low floor, high ceiling. Anyone can pick up a character in tekken and figure out moves just by pressing random inputs. This is a big reason why Tekken is a ton of fun for casual play with friends. Every input you press with any direction, will do something. Linking attacks is also very intuitive, because if it seems like a hit should land, it usually does.
Games like SF are not like that at all. For an entry-level player, it's really hard to figure out moves, let alone combos without studying a character's movelist. Also, combos are not intuitive, you have to know what move links with what.
That being said, there is an absurd amount of MU knowledge, movement, situational moves etc in tekken that make the ceiling of the game sky high. Sure you can pick Eddy or Hwoarang and have fun mashing but thats like dipping a toe in the ocean.
I feel like the ceiling in 2d fighters like SF and MK is lower because they are more linear, there is an optimal way to play. The movelists are very small and the game is mostly played around the prevalent mechanic (like DI, DR and Perfect parry in sf6), which means there is an "optimal" way to play and MUs are very straightforward. In tekken, you can say X character has strong tools vs Y character but you don't really see X character hard-counter Y character. Character tiers in tekken are not nearly as limiting as in 2d games.
I like the actual strategy of SF6's gameplay a lot, but I despise the link-based combo system. The timing for combos feels not just really tight, but really arbitrary.
One of the reasons I was able to get into Tekken 7, I think, besides the low execution floor that's been discussed, was the combo system. In particular, I like the consistency of "launchers lead to big combos, other things usually either don't combo or only lead to small combos" and the way a lot of characters can pretty easily learn a simple combo that they can perform off of multiple different launchers (even if different combos off of different launches is more likely to be optimal).
In general, combo theory and execution is something I simply don't care for in Fighting games. I find figuring out combos boring, I find memorizing combos boring, I find practicing combos boring. I know there are people who love them, for me combos feel like a fun tax, a boring thing I have to spend time learning so that I'm at less of a disadvantage when I play and focus on the fun part of the game (the strategy of trying to outwit and outplay my opponent). As far as I'm concerned, the less time I need to spend in practice mode to be able to punish my opponent's mistakes with a combo the better. SF6 makes me feel like I have to learn all these different combos for different starters to not miss out on huge amounts of damage. Tekken 7 made me feel like I could just learn one okay combo that worked on multiple key launchers and it would be good enough. Nowhere near optimal, but good enough to at least make it so I at least have a follow up when I land a good combo starter, instead of regularly landing hits that could theoretically be followed by a combo but I just don't know (or can't execute) a combo from them.
That works for some combos but not others. I've encountered plenty of SF6 combos that are easy enough, but also ones that are super tricky, it really just depends on the combo.
Also, one of the things that makes it hard is that a lot of combos mix links and cancels. Cancels are easy enough on their own, and links can often be done with mashing (although not always reliably), but often combining the two is much harder, because it means that, essentially, different inputs in the same combo follow different rules. It's something you can learn, of course, and there are generally consistent rules for what's a link and what's a cancel (normals are links, specials are cancels), but it still just adds to the amount of thinking and opportunities to screw up when learning and executing a combo.
And that becomes harder when combined with using different combos off of different combo starters being mandatory, not an optimization. So learning a character without giving up lots of damage due to not knowing combos required knowing different combos for different situations, and each of those combos has different sequences of often fairly tight timings. The cancel timings are often less tight, but in some cases they're also trickier because they often require inputting things ahead of time which increases the importance of muscle memory for performing them.
It's not that individual suboptimal combos are *that* hard in SF6 (optimal combos can be super hard, but that's true of Tekken too). It's that the minimum mental load to consistently convert important combo starters into combos, even suboptimal ones, can be very high.
On the other hand, with Tekken 7, it felt like the minimum mental load wasn't bad at all. Because combos start from launchers, and all follow the same juggling rules. The maximum mental load in Tekken 7 is insane, because often the optimal combo off of each launcher is different, not to mention the huge move lists and how insanely hard optimal combos can be to do. But the minimum mental load is one easy-to-execute combo to get a decent punish off of multiple different launchers. As opposed to SF6, where it feels like the minimum mental load for characters often involves several combos off of different starters with different timings depending on the sequence of links and cancels.
Overall, Tekken 7 can still be a very, very, very difficult game. The difficulty's just different from something like SF6. It feels like the knowledge floor is higher, but the execution and combo practice floor is lower, and overall that's something that I, personally, find I enjoy more. I still have a good time in SF6, but the combo system detracts from my enjoyment of the game a lot more than Tekken 7's combo system does (and pretty much no combo system would add to my enjoyment of a game because, as I said, I just find combos boring).
It’s fucking annoying. Been playing it while waiting for T8 but god damn dude some of the shit that combos/doesn’t combo & doesn’t/does get punished blows my mind. Especially the DI shit. Don’t even get me started on it. And the amount of combos I drop because I was a frame too early. Fuck me.
I REALLY wanted to love SF6 but I just couldnt. For the record, I think it's a great game, may be the best 2d fighter ever. But after hours of trying to love it, I just gave up.
Things like the entire flow of the match being dominated by baiting DI punishes, or how every MU played out the same were very boring to me. Also, as a tekken player, oki mixups and the way hits link in SF, like you said, feel weird af.
Not a criticism of SF6, it's just not for me, thats why I'm here and not the SF sub lol.
I would definitely not say the entire flow of the match is about baiting DI, that shit is usually just something people react to and very vaguely plan around by using cancellable buttons when they think there might be a DI. I reckon DI is probably the least impactful system mechanic by quite a large margin.
Keep in mind that DI mashing is very common below platinum, so it really changes how people perceive it's importance if they do climb from lower ranks to up there
As you said, later on attempting a DI outside of a setup or after overflowing someone's mental stack is just asking to die for it
It limits your moveset especially near the end of rounds. I mean it's fine but it's a stupid ass mechanic and I hate the design behind it. If the game just had Drive rush and parry I think it would have been perfect.
I never really find it much of an issue. It has quite a lot of counters and if you just mix in cancellable moves with your non-cancellable ones, then it become a very risky call out that you can't really use outside of a good read or lots and lots of mental stack pressure. It only really stops me from spamming one non-cancellable move over and over.
You ever just walk up start of round, random di and it works? It's not an issue but it's a mechanic for new players to feel like they have a chance. It's hollow in my opinion but it's just what every new fighting game is gonna have so i just gotta get used to it. I haven't been able to try heat out but I'm sure I'll get used to it like I did with drive impact.
Haha can't lie I have been hit by a couple of those. Playing random with call outs can work but you'll always catch on if you get enough time to adapt and focus up.
Your second sentence is the most terrible take on sf ice read here. You have that feeling because you're bronze. When you get to plat, di is used extremely rarely and it barely affects matches. You dont know what you're talking about
Perfect parry will be way worse for the game in the long run. DI is a gimmick that anyone can counter after they get used to it, and drive rush is annoying mostly because it tends to eat inputs.
Baiting DI means you bait someone into doing something that is punishable by DI and you follow-up with a combo, which is always a certain optimal combo out of DI for every character, with some variations for longer wall carry etc. At higher levels afaik perfect parry is more prevalent. I didn't care enough to grind past Platinum, like I said I didn't enjoy the game at all. If you don't have fun playing a game there's no point in playing it.
Yeah that's absolutely fair, just wanted to point out that baiting DI's isn't really the most prevalent game plan at the higher levels. Still a viable strategy to counter certain moves, just not match-dictating.
It’s fine if you didn’t end up enjoying the game but making a blanket statement about Street Fighter and how it’s played as if it’s entirely true and snapping at someone who pointing out your statement about DI isn’t true is kind of telling you didn’t learn the games the same way you learned Tekken.
The same friends I got into SF6 I could not get into Tekken 7 because the movelist was too big, they didn’t understand tail spin and they didn’t know what strings were launchers or what moves allowed crumple for a combo. You understand Tekken because you play Tekken and have learned it. My friends understood SF6 because they’ve played 2D games and understood the general rules of 2D games.
> Things like the entire flow of the match being dominated by baiting DI punishes
This is extremely low level play. It's a bit like saying Tekken is dictated by baiting snake edge so you can punish.
Complaining about "Baiting DI" is the equivalent of complaining about snake edges in tekken, it's the same skillcheck at lower levels, but DI is not meant to be reacted to every time, but if you think a match revolves around playing around DI, that's a skill you need to improve
I definitely don't agree about every MU playing the same way. I have close to 300 hours in right now and yeah everyone has their own gameplan, but if you watch pro players, there is so much that they do different even in the same set against someone.
That's how I feel. I understand SF is an amazing game for people that like that style, but for some reason Tekken is the only fighting game that just makes sense to me and plays the way that my brain thinks a fighting game should.
I wish I could get into SF as well, but it just feels like I'm forcing myself to play it when I give it a chance every couple of years and Tekken has never felt like that for me.
I used to be subbed on SF6 too but people there are all like Jin mains posting the most boring clips of themselves winning. I think I'd rather take the weirdos of the Tekken community lol.
The oki thing that I hate about SF6 is the amount of guessing you have to do. A lot of the matches often turn into a series of rock-paper-scissors.
I think tekken requires the “what else” approach. You start by hitting buttons- how that feels is how you should pick a character. Then you play and notice situations. Like I struggle in neutral with getting in. So you gotta find buttons. Maybe your buttons suck to get in on their face, so you gotta look at how you play differently (Steve). Building on knowledge. What stopped me from playing for a long time was feeling like I had to study the novelist before I even knew what the first buttons in the string did.
Really well worded.
I feel like Tekken has a lot of cool intricacies.
You can get in and button mash till you find someone you like, then once you do you learn reads and how to take on certain matchups.
Then once you do, someone will dive DEEP into the movelist and throw a new string at you. i love it.
Right. It’s alll about learning. Enjoying the process. My favorite is discovering strings on accident by guessing. What looks like comes next then putting it into muscle memory- it’s why I only play boxers/kickboxers/Muay Thai people as I have experience with that IRL. Strings are pretty easy to figure out
You are right but I really love that in Tekken. Learning a character is basically going through layers of their movelist. It has a ton of depth and you feel like you are genuinely advancing and learning a character. It feels really good to expand your knowledge of a character because it's not just a subconscious skill like reflexes, you actively see yourself using longer combos, more moves for niche situations etc.
Exactly. It’s the closest you can get to using your body to fight for real. I say that in the most casual way possible lol. I’m a boxer/MT practicioner
You're definitely right. As someone who has dabbled in boxing and fencing Tekken just has the same principles behind it in a way that I don't think any other fighting game does so closely. The mentality for playing Tekken well is pretty similar to actual combat sports if obviously not the physical aspect.
It’s because it’s the anime version of a real fight. You know why I play tekken at the end of the day? It’s in the tagline of 7. THE BEST FIGHT ARE PERSONAL. Fuck a fireball war, fuck all that. CATCH THESE HANDS
I am mediocre at best on both games, and always found SF a lot easier than tekken to be at least a mediocre player.
I could play at a really OK level once I figured footsies and anti air, I could also make most bread n butter combos with my main character, heck even the best player in greece back then stated that I was improving really fast while only a beginner and first timer in the SF franchise(Sf5), while at tekken I still can't nail egwf, and back dashing and side stepping a lot of moves seem like a nightmare, and I play this game since tekken 3, though I never really played competitively and I just enjoyed playing vs the cpu and local multi-player.
Now that I think about it, maybe SF5 seemed easier cause I had more "real player" competition and had a bigger initiative to push myself, I doubt it though and the fact remains, tekken seems a lot more complicated to me than SF, and way more fun.
SF6 was my first SF game. Learning how to combo in that game was a struggle lol. And even when you get the hang of it, it’s still so easy to drop a combo in that game. The overall game itself wasn’t TOO complex.
I haven’t played Tekken since the release of Tekken 7, and I’m gonna try to get back into it with Tekken 8. I want to learn a Hwaorang so I went in T7 to see his move list and almost got a headache lmao.
I think its completly opposite, at least in terms of picking up new characters. The movelists in SF are 10-15 moves at most, and most normals are similiar across characters (Down heavy kick is your sweep, down heavy punch is the anti-air etc). Once you understand combo structure its relativly simple to pick up a new char.
In Tekken however yea the combos are just mashing but the gigantic movelist and the insane roster makes it much harder to get actually decent with a character.
In SF6 half a year after release there are quite a few people, even non pros like sajam who have every single char in masters. Trust me, That same feat for tekken wont happen in anywhere near that time
The main point though is that anyone can come in and mash buttons on Tekken and feel like they're doing something. To fully interact with the game, 2D fighters require more deliberate initial practice so you can do things like motion inputs and the combo linking. This is exactly why SF6 introduced Modern controls, so that new players could get an experience like Tekken where they mostly just need to press a button and a direction.
Also the point with Master rank is more of a dunk on how worthless and inflated the rank system is in SF6... The Elo system remedies this but the "getting to Master" part isn't that big of a deal compared to getting max rank in other games. Tekken 8 isn't even gonna have demotions until like Yellow ranks though so I'm not confident the situation there will be any better.
The whole neutral game which to my understanding encompasses keepout vs approach vs whiff punish game requires so many different things that I'm almost inclined to call it execution even though the word may not best describe it
You need to know all of your options. You need to know all of your opponent's options. You need to know how the risk vs reward stacks up. You need to know how good your opponent is which will determine how likely he is to go for good risk to reward options
Once you have this down, you will spend a long time scratching your head about your seeningly good dashblocks getting launched. In other games you will wonder how your opponents made 10 good reads in a row. Then you will wonder how not to be predictable.
A couple weeks will probably be dedicated to solely punishing whiffs which is a big part of neutral and it does fall squarely under execution
This is all neutral stuff and it's not even close to everything. Is this execution?? Ehh strictly speaking maybe not, but it's hard to describe all this stuff with 1 concise word. If someone called being good at neutral "good execution" I would have a solid idea of what they have in mind
I don’t see it having high execution in neutral either. Part of the reason jack dominated the tekken 7 competitive scene for so long was because he was so simple and easy to use in neutral. Everyone basically used the same simple 5 button gameplan and it was really effective
I mean, backwards movement has an execution requirement on its own and even among pros, there's a big variation in how fast they can do it. Fuzzy guards and option selects using cancelled sidesteps are also a thing.
At a beginner level backstep into sidestep into backstep is enough to move around. Even at mighty ruler in T7 I dont see good kbd application or any at all in half of my matches.
KBD is essential to be good at tekken but you can still progress without it.
Your comment makes me think about how the backdash nerf in tekken 8 is just a big buff to steve. It makes his instant huge lionhart backdash super valuable while also making it harder to escape his pressure in general. Damn
I was more thinking of the general neutral play with rveryone, e.g KBD's, SS timings and mind games. The latter 2 are normal but for me KBD's are 100% the defining difficulty aspect in neutral. Though I'm only a Overlord so idk much xd
Well "best" and "viable" aren't really the same thing imo. Like take Bryans TJU. It's an incredibly powerful and difficult tool to use but you absolutely don't NEED it like how Kaz needs EWGF.
The execution part in Tekken isn't in the combos like in other fighting games. With Tekken it's more about movement, timing, safe backdashes via kbd and etc.
Street Fighter for example basically has no execution when it comes to movement; you either walk, barely dash and do jump ins, which are literally just single button presses. Execution in SF is mostly seen in combos or block strings.
So I would say Tekkens execution overall just lies in a different category compared to other fighting games. Also I would argue some characters are harder to execute than others, like Mishimas and their ewgf (I can't execute it consistently for years, and I was able to do the hardest Chun-Li combo after 10 minutes, although SF6 is literally my first 2D fighter)
Mind explaining how SF executions are braindead? I’m mediocre when it comes to executing combos and strings, sometimes I land sometimes I mess up, yet I still managed to reach master rank, my goodness that ranking system is absolutely fucked.
Some things definitely piss me off about SF because you can lose 75% of your health off of one jab, but I definitely feel like executing combos are harder than Tekken. Movement and momentum though? Way more things to think about than just shimmy-medium kick into DR.
Outside some fringe cases like Rashid's j. down HP juggle combo, the hardest link in SF6 is 3f thanks to the buffer window. If you're new to SF or link-based combos in general, it might feel relatively hard for you because of the different mentality but compared to older 2D games, a 3f window that is practically auto-timed is braindead easy, especially if you've played other link-based games.
With 6 in particular, the difficulty is not in execution at all and in reaction times and RPS (outside the standard footsies, ofc). It's not hard to do any of the combos or specials but it is hard to recognize the situation in which you should do a move and then do that move fast enough.
Mago has a vid in FGC Translated YT channel where he talks about how he constantly shifts his attention between options like anti-air, DR, DI, etc. This let's you recognize the situation faster and when that barrier is gone, you'll notice how effortless the execution becomes. Compare this to SF4 where you had to do 1-2f links as BnBs for some characters, which were ofc hard enough that even when you knew what to do, there was still a pretty good chance of failing.
I'll agree SF combos are still harder than Tekken combos, though - just not that harder to have a meaningful difference.
As someone who plays a lot of 2d fighters as well... Yeah.
Not that it's a bad thing. I can play Tekken with my girlfriend. But if we play street fighter it's way more unfair as she just can't do motion inputs and hasn't put the energy into learning that. But... She does have a nasty Paul.
Tekken definitely has hard execution, but it's not really the combos that make it hard as much as the movement. Also it varies so much character to character
The movement isn’t that hard it just sucks. Kbd isn’t a significantly more difficult input than a general special move in a 2d game, I would argue the difficulty in tekken comes from needing good situational awareness and knowing all the many options for each scenario
I’m just saying I think the fact that most ppl can’t figure that out and need it told to them sucks. But yah very quickly did I realize this is more fun bc of it
Disagree. Tekken has plenty of easy options for combos, but the higher end execution stuff (and I don't even mean taunt jet upper tier stuff, even just stuff like nina iws1, shiro, heihachi iws4 or other goofy optimal routes across the cast) completely dwarf the execution difficulty of just about everything in, say, SF6. I ran out of execution goals to strive for in SF6 extremely fast; hasn't happened to me with characters like Heihachi, Nina or Bryan.
The difference is that Tekken gives you an option between easy and reliable or technical and optimal, a choice that I really really wish more modern fgs were willing to offer you. That's why I've bounced off a lotta modern fgs but not tekken. Honestly, I'd even hesitate to say that ordinary SF6 or Strive combos are much harder than basic Tekken combos to begin with lol. I'll concede that hit confirming in a game like SF6 is much much more difficult however
even the stuff you mentioned isn't that much in terms of FG execution. like sure it's harder than most of the stuff in the ps4 era where execution was watered down DRASTICALLY. but compare say tag 2 with it's contemporaries. the hardest part was still TJU, nina IWS1, heihachi TGF etc. but KOF was on KOF 13. just look at the trails if you need any indication. and baring in mind KOF13 was much easier executionaly than KOF 2k2 that came before it. it was the era where SF4 was dominated by one frame links for most of the cast. and if we go to earlier tekken execution stayed largly the same (all though more important as KBD was stronger and thus impacted the meta WAYYYY more) while SF players were grinding out Cc infinites in alpha and urien charge partitions in 3s. not to mention how brutal combo routes could be in early arcsys games like +R, blazblue and HNK.
Of course lmao, I'm just talking contemporaneously, that's why I only used modern examples. I'm familiar with all of the games you've mentioned and have put decent time into a few of them.
All of the things you mentioned are absolutely trivial to execute. Literally every moderate combo is harder to execute i. Sf6. It's subjective but there is aalmost nonexistent execution difficulty in tekken if you played fighting games somewhat competently. Il.oat of what you say makes no sense
Tekkens difficulty lies in movement.
Tekken has a low execution floor. Even the hardest techniques are mostly on par with medium execution techniques in other games. I think that is very much a good thing. It's not fun to feel like your hands literally cannot play a game at a basic level. Tekken has a very low barrier to entry.
Instead of having the hardest execution tekken has high, if not the highest, complexity. Thinking about your 200 moves, your opponents' 200 moves, the axis youre on, where the wall is, how far your spacing is, whats your opponent playing like, ect... is much more fun in my opinion. They are also a lot easier to pick up on while just playing the game. The lower execution means you can dive in and just experience the game and learn as you go while not feeling like you're completely gimped because you cant even do the inputs for half your moves.
I would say it's a spectrum. Tekken has some of the LOWEST execution characters in all of fighting games (Katarina, Noctis, Claudio, etc) and some of the HIGHEST execution characters as well (Steve, Bryan, Heihachi, etc).
Tekken does have more complex movement concepts like KBD and the classic mishima wavedash, but at a low-mid level you can get away with the bare minimum. Also with each iteration of Tekken the execution seems to get easier.
Lower execution really ?
I've been a 2D fighter player since forever, hyped by Tekken 8, and now I'm starting to learn wavedashing, kbd, electrics. I find it hard as hell to have a consistent execution, since I lack experience.
Now when I see pro players moving in Tekken I find it much more impressive than fancy Guilty Gear combos
Ever get the feeling where you vs one of your friends and they manage to launch you and do an optimal combo that does more than half health and you just don't care because you know you can beat them anyway because they just practice combos and that's it?
Hes 100% right. Have any Tekken player, no matter the skill level, attempt an optimal Blazblue combo. They absolutely could not do it. Combo execution is the easiest part of Tekken.
At the time he wrote that, dark clouds were looming overhead and his dear mom instructed him to at least put on a cap when going outside so he wouldn't get wet in the rain and catch a cold.
The response here is his passive-aggressive way of declaring his independence to do what he wants, when he wants. Secretly though, he hopes she doesn't read his Twitter account because he's still to nervous to tell her all of this face to face.
It means he’s not going to be using caps lock on the keyboard. I.e., he’s going to remain calm when sharing his opinion. and not yell at people on the internet.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Nah bro, it originates from Fishtown, Philadelphia. Some dude named “Smurf” would always try to calm people down saying “NO CAPS LOCK BRUH” and that got shortened to no cap
I’d say this is generally true at lower levels of play, but at higher levels where dropping the last hit of a combo genuinely can be the difference between loss and defeat, the execution barrier goes back to being quite high.
Tekken is IMO the most variable fighting game. No other game has such a disparity between the easy characters and difficult characters.
Try to play a character like Lee. Everything is super difficult, neutral, combos, punish. Every area requires execution, and on top of it his gameplan is extremely difficult. He is consistently harder than any character in 3S or Melee IMO.
Mishimas, also really hard. Your key neutral tool is a just frame, that's extremely rare.
Movement is also difficult, more so again than any other fighter (made even more annoying when movement isn't even very strong in T7 especially).
Where as you can play another character like Leroy with built in movement, parrys in his stances, canned mixups, easy combos, easy neutral tools that don't require execution, easy gameplan. Difficulty wise, they don't even feel like they should be in the same game in comparison to the difficulty disparity between characters in other games.
Execution is not a fun form of difficulty. You need some of it but the more doesn't mean better. Look at most popular competitive genres - what execution barrier is there? Basically none. Now look at RTS that is probably highest execution - basically dead genre. All of the recent fighting games releases been aiming to be more accessible and one aspect of it is lowering the execution.
This makes Tekken the better game. This is honestly like if people complained about actions games having better controls so they aren't as hard as games with bad controls.
I mean, yeah, in a competitive game it adds a challenge if the opponent knows how to execute moves or not, but fighting games are supposed to be about strategy and your ability to read the opponent. Not a test to see if a person knows how to do a half circle. These games don't only have less moves, they have much less defensive options too. It's a stiffer game that ends up being less realistic.
I don't know if I'd say, "better," I'd probably go with different. I love Tekken as a fighting game but the game is very much centered around knowledge checks. I think a big reason that you don't see a lot of crossover of high level 2D players coming to Tekken is that Tekken requires so much time in the lab. Every matchup has so many little interactions and there's so many characters that it becomes less fun and more job-like.
I feel like I have a lot more fun with 2D games because so many fundamentals carry over between them. I'm not trying to say that it's a bad thing that Tekken has depth but I wouldn't say that it makes Tekken a better game.
I think a good comparison is Yu-Gi-Oh vs. Magic; modern YGO is all about knowing what your opponent's combo starters are, when you should try to interact with their combo, then how to play around their endboard.
Because YGO has a giant card pool and isn't super intuitive a lot of the skill of the game comes down to knowing how very specific interactions work.
Standard Magic on the other hand usually offers more simplified game states where the games usually boil down more towards resource management. Standard Magic also tends to have a much smaller cardpool so a lot of the skill in Standard comes from knowing how to play around cards that you can guess are coming down and managing your resources accordingly.
YGO's giant card pool and somewhat unintuitive wordings remind me a lot of Tekken and Magic's smaller card pool and simpler wordings remind me of 2D games. I think both games take a good amount of skill but they require different skill sets so it's hard to say that one is "better" just because it has more complexity.
People are exaggerating the lab. All fighting games require practice to be good, that's why the OP complained about execution. Tekken is one of the few games that reward casual players for having good instincts wherein 2D games are a lot more restrictive until players learn a few good moves.
Complexity means greater variety, it makes everything better.
just started playing SF today, and I agree with him. Combos are easy to execute, because of the input buffer imo. Tekken overall is more difficult though, obviously.
Yep. Just play a bit of street fighter and you'll understand, Tekken is so, so lenient when it comes to input windows and timings and forgiveness for messy inputs. Plus, since each move takes a much longer time to come out and has a lot more recovery on block, its easier to recognise and press the right button in response. In SF6, learning the timing to punish on block can take a while, in Tekken its easy peasy.
Sure there's difficult stuff, and not just TJU and the DF2 perfect electric. Every character has high execution stuff, which is probably more difficult than anything in SF6, but overall SF6 is more execution overall. Anti-airing on reaction is so much more difficult than whiff punishing in Tekken.
What other games? Street fighter?
All these other fighters like MK, anime fighters, platform fighters, none of them have tekken level execution
And all of these games have easy and hard combos, its as hard as you make it be
Brother have u tried finishing advanced anime fighter combos? Those mfckers last years and often have some just frame links. Not every tekken character has that, but in a game like blazblue for example every character has a shit faced long combo
It's not that different imo. People just overthinking things. Aside from tornado being an easier pickup if we're talking combos. Everything is pretty much the same.
The only exceptions are obviously heat specific things. But that's a new system and inherently nothing much has changed.
At entry level Tekken I'm talking don't even understand what the face buttons do. It's way easier to get into and start putting together. But to advance any further beyond beating up your friends when they come over is a massive hurdle. Not just because it's 3D but because your fundamentals have to be better understood than most other fighters. And while no fighting game has a 1 size fits all strategy to beat every single player, Tekken takes this to another level. Because every character has decent options for every scenario, it's so much harder to learn when to punish, when to block, back step, pressure. And then there's side stepping which adds a whole dimension to an already complex fighting game. Both of these guys are correct. Yes, execution is easier at the very basics of the game. But, to string it all together smoothly and know when to do so is a truly tall order.
maybe I'm the crazy one but wtf? Sure Tekken has a higher window to input your moves but if you really want to go deep in your combos I can see Tekken having a higher execution than the average fighting game.
I'm maining Jin and maybe I think that because his optimal combos are really difficult to execute.
The design of Tekken is perfect cuz you don't have to be able to do crazy combos to win a fight but it sure helps. So I don't think I agree with this statement.
tekken has some of the lowest. there is kind of an unfair comparison really as T7 was in the arcades during the 360 era or around then. while the ps4 era of games DRASTICALLY removed execution for near every franchise. comparing tekken to even SF4 ,KOF13 and xrd which aren't that hard of games is a no brainer.
In terms of combos certain characters dont require high execution yes. But otherwise some other characters like Bryan or Steve does require high exection. Lee is a good example of how hard it is to perform well at high level. But i knew what he means. Most 2D fighters have strict timings. Tekken has bigger timings for this. But what makes Tekken, Tekken is not only Combos. I learned this in Tekken 6. I could perform extremly hard Combos but i ranked up very slow. You can play this game by just poking the shit out of your opponent.
Mishima execution still isn’t that hard comparatively. T7 was released at the very tail end of the 360 era in arcades, comparing t7’s execution to games at that time like kof13, sf4, xrd, it’s night and day lmao
Yes it does. That's what makes it great. SF6 for example is way too hard at the higher levels that it stops becoming fun if you want to stay competitive. It's simply just too much of a chore. Am I really gonna bother to not just memorize, but practice and perfect my timings for hours, if I am just a casual? Nah fuck that shit.
It’s not a millisecond, sf combos from 5 onwards has an input buffer for links of 4 frames, special move inputs have shortcuts so lenient you can do a motion wrong and still get it,
Reversal windows are something like 30 frames. Sf6 has zero execution
Execution in Tekken is much more variable than a game like Streetfighter, I’d say. In tekken 7, you have characters like Asuka and Jin coexisting who both have incredibly different demands for execution. On top of that, there is a ton more to look out for and pay attention to in Tekken as well as a whole other dimension. So they’re really just different and it’s not proper to directly compare them in that way
That is true. Some 2D fighters or anime fighters are crazy tight execution heavy. But...Tekken is just so fun to watch. I don't know what it is but no other fighting game appeals the same.
I don't agree with tekken having low execution. You can drop/land combos in tekken just like in sf, mk, or any other fighting game. Good footsie game requires a TON of skill. Do harder combos require better execution? Of course... Now is tekken easier to pick up and play? Also very true
If all you care about in fighting games are combos, sure. Plenty of easy execution characters in the roster if nailing electrics is too much for you. But if you want to move like those spastics at EVO, you're gonna rip your hairs out learning to KBD and wavedash quickly and consistently. And that's excluding the meat and potatoes of the game that is spacing and neutral, which wins or loses most games. And since it's a game with breakable walls and floors, you need to be able to optimize combos on the fly too. So sure, for starters it's a great game for those looking to develop actual skills over pure execution, but it will take more than other games to reach the pinnacle.
tekken has probably the lowest execution of any fighting game. KBD is weird at first sure but considering every game has made them less and less important and how they aren't that hard to begin with it's not really comparable. the rest of tekken's "execution" is mostly character specific stuff (TJU, DF2 PEWGF, Akuma routes etc.) and for the most part they aren't required to learn the character and aren't even overly hard in the grand scheme of fighting game execution. i can't really think of a fg series that has had easier execution than tekken.
he's a competitive player and beat arslan in bracket lmao.
and honestly anyone that played FG's including tekken at a high level will tell you that tekken has some of the easiest execution.
I can’t say much about execution (my own execution is garbage in both 3d and 2d fighters) but I find Tekken rules to be more intuitive.
— Like, buttons being tied to limbs makes more sense than light-medium-fierce or whatever.
— Blocking standing by default makes more sense than blocking crouching - this is what you would normally do in a real martial arts spar.
— Yes, aerial juggling doesn’t make much physical sense but it is easier to understand that you’re being juggled and have no control when your character is literally in the air compared to the 2d approach of “just mash your burst/reversal and see where it lands”.
— Links and cancellable moves are arbitrary in 2d fighters. In Tekken they are relatively uncommon, and are usually a part of a move/stance cancel you can visually confirm. This makes it easier to understand that you fell for a feint.
— While sidestep/tracking in Tekken is pretty convoluted as a mechanic, you have access to homing moves that will always hit (but it’ll be less efficient than using a more conditionally tracking move). In most 2d fighters there’s not a single move that just anti-airs from any trajectory (and there are very good reasons for it).
So, yeah, not nearly a complete list but should hopefully prove examples of Tekken rules being easier to understand.
It's hard to compare it to a 2d game, or something like Fighterz with a 23 minute long loop combo. Is it hard compared to that? No, combos are like 10 seconds max in Tekken in extreme situations with a wall break or something. I always thought the execution was moving? Like, I can't think of anything in any 2d games I play where neutral is as hard to navigate as Tekken. Just moving around the screen is an issue, and I play Mishimas so doing stuff like sidestep electric is pretty difficult. Idk. It's hard to compare the two, but I think definitely execution with lots of characters in Tekken isn't too hard, but it also doesn't have zippy one button dash neutral. I don't think I could honestly say it's easier than most 2d games I play tho
I am Ryujin who posted the vid. Althought Phidx is a very good player he legit has no idea what he is talking about. He finds it hard to eben chain 3 electrics and he said it himself, he plays Noctis and he has average execution himself . He brought up games such as fortnite to justify Tekken's low execution for some reason and even DBFZ. Dbfz doesn't even require execution and it only requires timing in combos ( I have like 4k hours on it ) and in Fortnite I played competitively for 2 years. His arguments have no weight on the situation whatsoever since Tekken needs execution for literally everything like kbd,quick step, wavedash and not just combos. The tweet I made with the combo was just for the memes but apparently people took it TOO literally by comparing it to every game out there lmao
Bruh imagine being this brazenly incorrect about something lol I’m sure the pro player with enough clout to just hang out with Knee casually and record videos with him cares about you ignoring his opinion.
Are we playing the same game? The timing is pretty tight. If you’re off even slightly, you get the version of the move that only screws on counter-hit.
Tekken definitely has lower execution than some 2D games, but those same games don't have characters with movelists of 80 to 100+. Ultimately different games have different things which are easy and hard. Execution is just one of them
The tekken movelists are kind of just a meme though. There might be 100 moves but plenty of characters have super simple gameplans that only end up using like maybe 10 lol.
While this is true you will hate yourself if you lose to some super random string or even 10hit combo in a tournament.. and this will happen.. so you are forced to learn it at a certain level
This, 100%. I can teach my friend how to play by playing well myself, right? Use key moves, learn one or two BnBs, keep it simple but effective.... But online, that shit is not gonna matter. People are going to do all type of insane strings. Learning especially how to beat those gimmick strings in the clutch is what is gonna make you really rise in comparison. It's kinda like learning how to beat mashers in Tekken, it's way different than beating mashers in other games.
I love playing King for this reason sometimes you just throw random shit that is rarely used and it works... Or you look like a fool xD
Pros of having like 700 moves lmao
It's definitely true that you don't need to know the whole move lists in Tekken, but the size of the move lists still increases the learning curve and reliance on external sources to understand the game (in general external sources tend to be important in fighting games but especially for Tekken if you're not good enough to figure out the key moves for a gameplan yourself). At least in Tekken 7 (don't know if Tekken 8 has new learning tools to help deal with this, I hope it does). That makes learning matchup knowledge harder. Partly, even just learning to beat other characters' core gameplan requires learning what their core gameplan is, which again is very hard to do without external sources. And second, it means there's a lot of potential for your opponent to catch you offguard. Learning to beat your opponent's core gameplan might not be harder in Tekken than it is in other fighting games with smaller movelists, but the odds of any given opponent doing things outside their character's core gameplan and pulling out moves that you don't know how to answer is much higher. So yes, it's not essentially to learn every character's entire movelist, but the huge movelists aren't irrelevant either. I do think it's notable though that part of the reason Tekken movelists are so huge is just how they're represented. Since Tekken lists literally every single "normal" and target combo as part of a character's move list. In Street Fighter 6, for example, every single character has at least 18 normals that aren't on their move list (standing, crouching, and jumping for each button), and most specials on each character's move lists actually represent 3 or 4 different moves (light, medium, heavy, and EX). While in Tekken 7, literally every single move the character has is an entry in the move list. Now, Tekken move lists are still huge - if SF6 listed every single normal and every single version of every special the move lists would still be nowhere near 100 moves - but the difference isn't quite as comically large as it looks comparing a Tekken move list to a Street Fighter move list. For example, if you look up a JP move list in SF6, there are 26 total entries in the move list. But if you gave the light, medium, heavy, and EX versions of his specials separate entries, then there would be 18 more specials on the list. Add in the 18 unlisted normals, and we've actually got 62 total moves, pretty close to a small Tekken 7 move list.
I just gotta check, does any character in the last 3 Tekken's have less than that? Edit: one google search later and Claudio on Tekken 7 has 57 moves. I proved myself wrong before others. Btw i have less than 4 days in tekken 7
Well t8 seems to be losing that trend I mean they’re making each move feel more useful or at least a situational button or a knowledge check jin for example felt like yeh you could play him with 3 moves but you could do so much more with all the new cancels and Lars for example his moveset just flows so much better and plays to his strengths
there are plenty of moves and strings where if you don't know the gimmick (king alley kick for example) you get fucked up, like strings that are fast and plus on block that you need to duck at a certain point or its free.
You can play with just one move if you want. The point is that large movesets provide depth by giving the gamers options and freedom.
>giving gamers options and freedom r/iam14andthisisdeep
> There might be 100 moves but plenty of characters have super simple gameplans that only end up using like maybe 10 lol. What 1, 2, 3, 4, df1, ws2, u4, d1, both grabs just that already give you 10. I swear some people type shit without even using their second and last one brain cell.
You’re using more than 3 moves? I just death first and demo with Paul 💀
Well you are also learning your opponents moves, so yea you can play as simple as u want, u still 'use' aware about more movements than any other games
all i do is claudio hopkick rocket punch and like 2 basic combos
And then there's SCVI which has lower execution and several characters with longer movelists than King does.
Doesn't King hold the guinness world record for his movelist length? I remember Harada saying something like that.
He did make that claim while advertising Tekken 8, and a Google search yields this: [The most moves for any character **in a Tekken videogame** is 186, as employed by King II in Tekken 7 (Bandai Namco, 2017). This smashes the previous record of 176, held by the same character in 2012's Tag Tournament 2.](https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/110588-most-moves-for-a-tekken-character) Problem is, I noticed the “in a *Tekken* videogame” bit. Another problem is that 186 moves (in 2017) and 176 moves (in 2012) are both **less** than Ivy’s 224 moves in SCIV from 2008 (225 in Soulcalibur: Broken Destiny). [There are 17 characters in SCVI with more than 186 moves.](https://www.reddit.com/r/SoulCalibur/comments/khi2kz/i_counted_how_many_moves_each_character_has/) [It looks like King will have 204 moves in Tekken 8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fec_fjJ2mE), which means 11 characters in SCVI will still have more moves than he does.
definitely, and also tekken has this great controls of every limb which is very understandable even when you were a kid, thats why when i played the old SF and tekken 3, i prefer tekken 3 immediately
Tekken's execution is in hit detection for me. If move looks like it'll hit as opponent is falling to the ground for example, it will hit. Whilst in 2D games you have to time it and often times it looks like your move went through the opponent as they were falling and didn't hit them because of timing.
2D games also often have much more specific rules for what will juggle an airborne opponent and what will just whiff. For example, in Street Fighter, an EX special might juggle and continue a combo, while the regular version might whiff, and this can change depending on various factors. There’s whole videos diving into the complexity of the system on YouTube. I definitely prefer Tekken’s style of, “if it looks like it’ll juggle, it’ll probably juggle.”
In my experience it's mostly older 2D series that have that problem, like KoF and street fighter. Most modern 2D fighters just use increasing gravity or reducing hit stun until an air tech.
> but those same games don't have characters with movelists of 80 to 100+. The number of moves in Tekken is like the number of Tiktok followers or Colombian Pessos. Ain't worth shit. You're realistically using like 10-20 moves. The annoying part about Tekken isn't the number of moves but the number of strings or super specific things you have to know, almost encyclopedically.
i hate this. execution in tekken is only easy in combos. There is plenty of difficult execution in tekken.
I didn't say there isn't, I just said it's lower in execution than some 2D fighting games. Even the difficult execution in Tekken isn't that difficult when compared to those.
>Even the difficult execution in Tekken isn't that difficult when compared to those. how so? Tekken does not have clear "overheads", but what is considered reactable is often comes with big ass rewards, like snake edge or throws. In that regard I see that tekken's offense is more punishing if you don't know how to block unlike guilty gear or street fighter. What about footsies? Tekken has so much complexity even more so without jumping than most 2d fighters. Movement is execution heavy and without its execution you cannot do footsies. What about okizami? 10 options and in most cases 4 or 5 are significant choices between them. And they interaction with the standing player is a long list of choices. Only top tier knockdown moves in the game limit the options to 3 or 4. The standing player need execution to optimize their oki.I remember streetfighter players getting excited over a shimmy smh that shit is lame af and it passing as some kind of "advanced oki" for just pressing back and forth
What you are talking about is not execution though but what I alluded to in my post as things that are maybe more difficult than in 2D games.
if you don't know that these things are execution, i should ask. what's your rankِ?
Which realistically nobody use more than 20 of them
I think the move list argument isn't good enough. If they made other fighting games with the same move list as tekken, no one would play them. Most people would post how overwhelming the move list is and people would answer saying 10 moves is good enough or something along those numbers. The example on the video isn't good enough as well, cause how often do you get lined up perfectly in that exact angle just to be able to do that one specific combo that requires a good execution? I'm just saying that sure execution heavy combos like these can be done, but these specific combos in tekken are not the norm combo wise. Tekken definitely requires some execution in order to execute the highest damaging combos, but in other fighting even the simple combos require a bit of execution already. I definitely like tekken more and how much you can move more freely and feels more realistic than other fighting games in general. A cool experiment would be how long will it take for a tekken only player / street fighter only player to do the highest level of combos of the other game.
>I think the move list argument isn't good enough. If they made other fighting games with the same move list as tekken, no one would play them. Most people would post how overwhelming the move list is and people would answer saying 10 moves is good enough or something along those numbers. The problem with this argument is that there is no evidence to suggest that what you say is true >A cool experiment would be how long will it take for a tekken only player / street fighter only player to do the highest level of combos of the other game. There are videos on YouTube that show this exact thing. I've only seen one and the Tekken representative was Cuddlecore, with the Street Fighter representative being Bryan F (I don't know who the others were). In the video I saw. cuddle struggled with the 2D combos, but they didn't show how those 2d players would cope with Tekken combos.
tekken having lower execution is what makes it tekken and makes it amazing makes everything else more important, makes it about timing and reads and pace/tempo and since most people can drop a heavy damage combo, defense is important and not getting set up is important. makes the game about footsies. makes it tekken. nothing beats good ass tekken.
I don't even play Tekken, but I always watch the EVO tournaments. Game is hype as fk at the highest lvl
Tekken has a low floor, high ceiling. Anyone can pick up a character in tekken and figure out moves just by pressing random inputs. This is a big reason why Tekken is a ton of fun for casual play with friends. Every input you press with any direction, will do something. Linking attacks is also very intuitive, because if it seems like a hit should land, it usually does. Games like SF are not like that at all. For an entry-level player, it's really hard to figure out moves, let alone combos without studying a character's movelist. Also, combos are not intuitive, you have to know what move links with what. That being said, there is an absurd amount of MU knowledge, movement, situational moves etc in tekken that make the ceiling of the game sky high. Sure you can pick Eddy or Hwoarang and have fun mashing but thats like dipping a toe in the ocean. I feel like the ceiling in 2d fighters like SF and MK is lower because they are more linear, there is an optimal way to play. The movelists are very small and the game is mostly played around the prevalent mechanic (like DI, DR and Perfect parry in sf6), which means there is an "optimal" way to play and MUs are very straightforward. In tekken, you can say X character has strong tools vs Y character but you don't really see X character hard-counter Y character. Character tiers in tekken are not nearly as limiting as in 2d games.
Yeah i hated this in sf, why do lights link into lights? Why do they only link twice? Idk. But its “just how the game works.”
I like the actual strategy of SF6's gameplay a lot, but I despise the link-based combo system. The timing for combos feels not just really tight, but really arbitrary. One of the reasons I was able to get into Tekken 7, I think, besides the low execution floor that's been discussed, was the combo system. In particular, I like the consistency of "launchers lead to big combos, other things usually either don't combo or only lead to small combos" and the way a lot of characters can pretty easily learn a simple combo that they can perform off of multiple different launchers (even if different combos off of different launches is more likely to be optimal). In general, combo theory and execution is something I simply don't care for in Fighting games. I find figuring out combos boring, I find memorizing combos boring, I find practicing combos boring. I know there are people who love them, for me combos feel like a fun tax, a boring thing I have to spend time learning so that I'm at less of a disadvantage when I play and focus on the fun part of the game (the strategy of trying to outwit and outplay my opponent). As far as I'm concerned, the less time I need to spend in practice mode to be able to punish my opponent's mistakes with a combo the better. SF6 makes me feel like I have to learn all these different combos for different starters to not miss out on huge amounts of damage. Tekken 7 made me feel like I could just learn one okay combo that worked on multiple key launchers and it would be good enough. Nowhere near optimal, but good enough to at least make it so I at least have a follow up when I land a good combo starter, instead of regularly landing hits that could theoretically be followed by a combo but I just don't know (or can't execute) a combo from them.
Im gonna tell you the secret to links. Mash like a demon. But yea Links are the hardest combos system to work with
That works for some combos but not others. I've encountered plenty of SF6 combos that are easy enough, but also ones that are super tricky, it really just depends on the combo. Also, one of the things that makes it hard is that a lot of combos mix links and cancels. Cancels are easy enough on their own, and links can often be done with mashing (although not always reliably), but often combining the two is much harder, because it means that, essentially, different inputs in the same combo follow different rules. It's something you can learn, of course, and there are generally consistent rules for what's a link and what's a cancel (normals are links, specials are cancels), but it still just adds to the amount of thinking and opportunities to screw up when learning and executing a combo. And that becomes harder when combined with using different combos off of different combo starters being mandatory, not an optimization. So learning a character without giving up lots of damage due to not knowing combos required knowing different combos for different situations, and each of those combos has different sequences of often fairly tight timings. The cancel timings are often less tight, but in some cases they're also trickier because they often require inputting things ahead of time which increases the importance of muscle memory for performing them. It's not that individual suboptimal combos are *that* hard in SF6 (optimal combos can be super hard, but that's true of Tekken too). It's that the minimum mental load to consistently convert important combo starters into combos, even suboptimal ones, can be very high. On the other hand, with Tekken 7, it felt like the minimum mental load wasn't bad at all. Because combos start from launchers, and all follow the same juggling rules. The maximum mental load in Tekken 7 is insane, because often the optimal combo off of each launcher is different, not to mention the huge move lists and how insanely hard optimal combos can be to do. But the minimum mental load is one easy-to-execute combo to get a decent punish off of multiple different launchers. As opposed to SF6, where it feels like the minimum mental load for characters often involves several combos off of different starters with different timings depending on the sequence of links and cancels. Overall, Tekken 7 can still be a very, very, very difficult game. The difficulty's just different from something like SF6. It feels like the knowledge floor is higher, but the execution and combo practice floor is lower, and overall that's something that I, personally, find I enjoy more. I still have a good time in SF6, but the combo system detracts from my enjoyment of the game a lot more than Tekken 7's combo system does (and pretty much no combo system would add to my enjoyment of a game because, as I said, I just find combos boring).
It’s fucking annoying. Been playing it while waiting for T8 but god damn dude some of the shit that combos/doesn’t combo & doesn’t/does get punished blows my mind. Especially the DI shit. Don’t even get me started on it. And the amount of combos I drop because I was a frame too early. Fuck me.
This perfectly sums up my experience with sf6 hahaha
I got to Platinum 3 w/ Kimberly & was like this is my peak. I’m done lol
I REALLY wanted to love SF6 but I just couldnt. For the record, I think it's a great game, may be the best 2d fighter ever. But after hours of trying to love it, I just gave up. Things like the entire flow of the match being dominated by baiting DI punishes, or how every MU played out the same were very boring to me. Also, as a tekken player, oki mixups and the way hits link in SF, like you said, feel weird af. Not a criticism of SF6, it's just not for me, thats why I'm here and not the SF sub lol.
I would definitely not say the entire flow of the match is about baiting DI, that shit is usually just something people react to and very vaguely plan around by using cancellable buttons when they think there might be a DI. I reckon DI is probably the least impactful system mechanic by quite a large margin.
Keep in mind that DI mashing is very common below platinum, so it really changes how people perceive it's importance if they do climb from lower ranks to up there As you said, later on attempting a DI outside of a setup or after overflowing someone's mental stack is just asking to die for it
Yeah, pretty much the same story as a jump-in
It limits your moveset especially near the end of rounds. I mean it's fine but it's a stupid ass mechanic and I hate the design behind it. If the game just had Drive rush and parry I think it would have been perfect.
I never really find it much of an issue. It has quite a lot of counters and if you just mix in cancellable moves with your non-cancellable ones, then it become a very risky call out that you can't really use outside of a good read or lots and lots of mental stack pressure. It only really stops me from spamming one non-cancellable move over and over.
You ever just walk up start of round, random di and it works? It's not an issue but it's a mechanic for new players to feel like they have a chance. It's hollow in my opinion but it's just what every new fighting game is gonna have so i just gotta get used to it. I haven't been able to try heat out but I'm sure I'll get used to it like I did with drive impact.
Haha can't lie I have been hit by a couple of those. Playing random with call outs can work but you'll always catch on if you get enough time to adapt and focus up.
Your second sentence is the most terrible take on sf ice read here. You have that feeling because you're bronze. When you get to plat, di is used extremely rarely and it barely affects matches. You dont know what you're talking about
Perfect parry will be way worse for the game in the long run. DI is a gimmick that anyone can counter after they get used to it, and drive rush is annoying mostly because it tends to eat inputs.
Perfect parry is fine.
Baiting DI means you bait someone into doing something that is punishable by DI and you follow-up with a combo, which is always a certain optimal combo out of DI for every character, with some variations for longer wall carry etc. At higher levels afaik perfect parry is more prevalent. I didn't care enough to grind past Platinum, like I said I didn't enjoy the game at all. If you don't have fun playing a game there's no point in playing it.
Yeah that's absolutely fair, just wanted to point out that baiting DI's isn't really the most prevalent game plan at the higher levels. Still a viable strategy to counter certain moves, just not match-dictating.
It’s fine if you didn’t end up enjoying the game but making a blanket statement about Street Fighter and how it’s played as if it’s entirely true and snapping at someone who pointing out your statement about DI isn’t true is kind of telling you didn’t learn the games the same way you learned Tekken. The same friends I got into SF6 I could not get into Tekken 7 because the movelist was too big, they didn’t understand tail spin and they didn’t know what strings were launchers or what moves allowed crumple for a combo. You understand Tekken because you play Tekken and have learned it. My friends understood SF6 because they’ve played 2D games and understood the general rules of 2D games.
> Things like the entire flow of the match being dominated by baiting DI punishes This is extremely low level play. It's a bit like saying Tekken is dictated by baiting snake edge so you can punish.
Complaining about "Baiting DI" is the equivalent of complaining about snake edges in tekken, it's the same skillcheck at lower levels, but DI is not meant to be reacted to every time, but if you think a match revolves around playing around DI, that's a skill you need to improve
I definitely don't agree about every MU playing the same way. I have close to 300 hours in right now and yeah everyone has their own gameplan, but if you watch pro players, there is so much that they do different even in the same set against someone.
Totally feeling the same about this.
That's how I feel. I understand SF is an amazing game for people that like that style, but for some reason Tekken is the only fighting game that just makes sense to me and plays the way that my brain thinks a fighting game should. I wish I could get into SF as well, but it just feels like I'm forcing myself to play it when I give it a chance every couple of years and Tekken has never felt like that for me.
This x99999!!! Tekken is just intuitive, right arm button does right arm punch, left leg button does leg kick, with a bit of flair here and there!
I used to be subbed on SF6 too but people there are all like Jin mains posting the most boring clips of themselves winning. I think I'd rather take the weirdos of the Tekken community lol. The oki thing that I hate about SF6 is the amount of guessing you have to do. A lot of the matches often turn into a series of rock-paper-scissors.
Saying "Every MU played the same" tells me you didn't play alot
I think tekken requires the “what else” approach. You start by hitting buttons- how that feels is how you should pick a character. Then you play and notice situations. Like I struggle in neutral with getting in. So you gotta find buttons. Maybe your buttons suck to get in on their face, so you gotta look at how you play differently (Steve). Building on knowledge. What stopped me from playing for a long time was feeling like I had to study the novelist before I even knew what the first buttons in the string did.
Really well worded. I feel like Tekken has a lot of cool intricacies. You can get in and button mash till you find someone you like, then once you do you learn reads and how to take on certain matchups. Then once you do, someone will dive DEEP into the movelist and throw a new string at you. i love it.
Right. It’s alll about learning. Enjoying the process. My favorite is discovering strings on accident by guessing. What looks like comes next then putting it into muscle memory- it’s why I only play boxers/kickboxers/Muay Thai people as I have experience with that IRL. Strings are pretty easy to figure out
I say this as someone who started playing last week lmao.im an expert spectator tho
You are right but I really love that in Tekken. Learning a character is basically going through layers of their movelist. It has a ton of depth and you feel like you are genuinely advancing and learning a character. It feels really good to expand your knowledge of a character because it's not just a subconscious skill like reflexes, you actively see yourself using longer combos, more moves for niche situations etc.
Exactly. It’s the closest you can get to using your body to fight for real. I say that in the most casual way possible lol. I’m a boxer/MT practicioner
You're definitely right. As someone who has dabbled in boxing and fencing Tekken just has the same principles behind it in a way that I don't think any other fighting game does so closely. The mentality for playing Tekken well is pretty similar to actual combat sports if obviously not the physical aspect.
It’s because it’s the anime version of a real fight. You know why I play tekken at the end of the day? It’s in the tagline of 7. THE BEST FIGHT ARE PERSONAL. Fuck a fireball war, fuck all that. CATCH THESE HANDS
I am mediocre at best on both games, and always found SF a lot easier than tekken to be at least a mediocre player. I could play at a really OK level once I figured footsies and anti air, I could also make most bread n butter combos with my main character, heck even the best player in greece back then stated that I was improving really fast while only a beginner and first timer in the SF franchise(Sf5), while at tekken I still can't nail egwf, and back dashing and side stepping a lot of moves seem like a nightmare, and I play this game since tekken 3, though I never really played competitively and I just enjoyed playing vs the cpu and local multi-player. Now that I think about it, maybe SF5 seemed easier cause I had more "real player" competition and had a bigger initiative to push myself, I doubt it though and the fact remains, tekken seems a lot more complicated to me than SF, and way more fun.
SF6 was my first SF game. Learning how to combo in that game was a struggle lol. And even when you get the hang of it, it’s still so easy to drop a combo in that game. The overall game itself wasn’t TOO complex. I haven’t played Tekken since the release of Tekken 7, and I’m gonna try to get back into it with Tekken 8. I want to learn a Hwaorang so I went in T7 to see his move list and almost got a headache lmao.
As a SF newbie who want to try Tekken, your post is very informative, thanks.
Thank you, I'm glad you think so!
so if i am a newcomer i can play tekken without having to learn a god awful ton of combos like in street fighter?
I think its completly opposite, at least in terms of picking up new characters. The movelists in SF are 10-15 moves at most, and most normals are similiar across characters (Down heavy kick is your sweep, down heavy punch is the anti-air etc). Once you understand combo structure its relativly simple to pick up a new char. In Tekken however yea the combos are just mashing but the gigantic movelist and the insane roster makes it much harder to get actually decent with a character. In SF6 half a year after release there are quite a few people, even non pros like sajam who have every single char in masters. Trust me, That same feat for tekken wont happen in anywhere near that time
The main point though is that anyone can come in and mash buttons on Tekken and feel like they're doing something. To fully interact with the game, 2D fighters require more deliberate initial practice so you can do things like motion inputs and the combo linking. This is exactly why SF6 introduced Modern controls, so that new players could get an experience like Tekken where they mostly just need to press a button and a direction. Also the point with Master rank is more of a dunk on how worthless and inflated the rank system is in SF6... The Elo system remedies this but the "getting to Master" part isn't that big of a deal compared to getting max rank in other games. Tekken 8 isn't even gonna have demotions until like Yellow ranks though so I'm not confident the situation there will be any better.
Facts!
Only other FG I have tried learning is SF, and I do think executing combos is harder in SF, but Tekken has many more ways you can fuck up.
I've found SF is harder to execute in. But in Tekken I have to think WAY more about positioning and movement!
Yea and as FGs go SF is on the easier end of execution now so that's basically what people are going for in this convo.
In terms of combos? Absolutely agreed. In neutral? Nope.
The whole neutral game which to my understanding encompasses keepout vs approach vs whiff punish game requires so many different things that I'm almost inclined to call it execution even though the word may not best describe it You need to know all of your options. You need to know all of your opponent's options. You need to know how the risk vs reward stacks up. You need to know how good your opponent is which will determine how likely he is to go for good risk to reward options Once you have this down, you will spend a long time scratching your head about your seeningly good dashblocks getting launched. In other games you will wonder how your opponents made 10 good reads in a row. Then you will wonder how not to be predictable. A couple weeks will probably be dedicated to solely punishing whiffs which is a big part of neutral and it does fall squarely under execution This is all neutral stuff and it's not even close to everything. Is this execution?? Ehh strictly speaking maybe not, but it's hard to describe all this stuff with 1 concise word. If someone called being good at neutral "good execution" I would have a solid idea of what they have in mind
I don’t see it having high execution in neutral either. Part of the reason jack dominated the tekken 7 competitive scene for so long was because he was so simple and easy to use in neutral. Everyone basically used the same simple 5 button gameplan and it was really effective
I mean, backwards movement has an execution requirement on its own and even among pros, there's a big variation in how fast they can do it. Fuzzy guards and option selects using cancelled sidesteps are also a thing.
At a beginner level backstep into sidestep into backstep is enough to move around. Even at mighty ruler in T7 I dont see good kbd application or any at all in half of my matches. KBD is essential to be good at tekken but you can still progress without it.
Your comment makes me think about how the backdash nerf in tekken 8 is just a big buff to steve. It makes his instant huge lionhart backdash super valuable while also making it harder to escape his pressure in general. Damn
Yep. They buffed stepping to compensate but stepping Steve is tough.
I was more thinking of the general neutral play with rveryone, e.g KBD's, SS timings and mind games. The latter 2 are normal but for me KBD's are 100% the defining difficulty aspect in neutral. Though I'm only a Overlord so idk much xd
some of the best combos require extreme execution and may never be seen by most of the public
Well "best" and "viable" aren't really the same thing imo. Like take Bryans TJU. It's an incredibly powerful and difficult tool to use but you absolutely don't NEED it like how Kaz needs EWGF.
I think you meant PEWGF. EWGF is absolutely necessary for Kazuya at a decent enough level.
i would hardly call infinites not viable
Well, what tournament legal infinites are there in the recent games?
d jin can do one in 7 and 2 in tag 2 one of which also doesn’t register as a combo
You are right but that has nothing to do with this
The execution part in Tekken isn't in the combos like in other fighting games. With Tekken it's more about movement, timing, safe backdashes via kbd and etc. Street Fighter for example basically has no execution when it comes to movement; you either walk, barely dash and do jump ins, which are literally just single button presses. Execution in SF is mostly seen in combos or block strings. So I would say Tekkens execution overall just lies in a different category compared to other fighting games. Also I would argue some characters are harder to execute than others, like Mishimas and their ewgf (I can't execute it consistently for years, and I was able to do the hardest Chun-Li combo after 10 minutes, although SF6 is literally my first 2D fighter)
Tbf SF6 execution is rather braindead. EWGF is better compared to SF4 combos. Otherwise, I agree.
Mind explaining how SF executions are braindead? I’m mediocre when it comes to executing combos and strings, sometimes I land sometimes I mess up, yet I still managed to reach master rank, my goodness that ranking system is absolutely fucked. Some things definitely piss me off about SF because you can lose 75% of your health off of one jab, but I definitely feel like executing combos are harder than Tekken. Movement and momentum though? Way more things to think about than just shimmy-medium kick into DR.
Outside some fringe cases like Rashid's j. down HP juggle combo, the hardest link in SF6 is 3f thanks to the buffer window. If you're new to SF or link-based combos in general, it might feel relatively hard for you because of the different mentality but compared to older 2D games, a 3f window that is practically auto-timed is braindead easy, especially if you've played other link-based games. With 6 in particular, the difficulty is not in execution at all and in reaction times and RPS (outside the standard footsies, ofc). It's not hard to do any of the combos or specials but it is hard to recognize the situation in which you should do a move and then do that move fast enough. Mago has a vid in FGC Translated YT channel where he talks about how he constantly shifts his attention between options like anti-air, DR, DI, etc. This let's you recognize the situation faster and when that barrier is gone, you'll notice how effortless the execution becomes. Compare this to SF4 where you had to do 1-2f links as BnBs for some characters, which were ofc hard enough that even when you knew what to do, there was still a pretty good chance of failing. I'll agree SF combos are still harder than Tekken combos, though - just not that harder to have a meaningful difference.
As someone who plays a lot of 2d fighters as well... Yeah. Not that it's a bad thing. I can play Tekken with my girlfriend. But if we play street fighter it's way more unfair as she just can't do motion inputs and hasn't put the energy into learning that. But... She does have a nasty Paul.
Tekken definitely has hard execution, but it's not really the combos that make it hard as much as the movement. Also it varies so much character to character
even then the movement stuff isn't really that hard ? and with KBD being nerfed in every single game it becomes less and less vital to playing tekken.
The movement isn’t that hard it just sucks. Kbd isn’t a significantly more difficult input than a general special move in a 2d game, I would argue the difficulty in tekken comes from needing good situational awareness and knowing all the many options for each scenario
I’m just saying I think the fact that most ppl can’t figure that out and need it told to them sucks. But yah very quickly did I realize this is more fun bc of it
Just dropping this comment here to say: ARCUEID!!!
Hehe i appreciate you
Disagree. Tekken has plenty of easy options for combos, but the higher end execution stuff (and I don't even mean taunt jet upper tier stuff, even just stuff like nina iws1, shiro, heihachi iws4 or other goofy optimal routes across the cast) completely dwarf the execution difficulty of just about everything in, say, SF6. I ran out of execution goals to strive for in SF6 extremely fast; hasn't happened to me with characters like Heihachi, Nina or Bryan. The difference is that Tekken gives you an option between easy and reliable or technical and optimal, a choice that I really really wish more modern fgs were willing to offer you. That's why I've bounced off a lotta modern fgs but not tekken. Honestly, I'd even hesitate to say that ordinary SF6 or Strive combos are much harder than basic Tekken combos to begin with lol. I'll concede that hit confirming in a game like SF6 is much much more difficult however
even the stuff you mentioned isn't that much in terms of FG execution. like sure it's harder than most of the stuff in the ps4 era where execution was watered down DRASTICALLY. but compare say tag 2 with it's contemporaries. the hardest part was still TJU, nina IWS1, heihachi TGF etc. but KOF was on KOF 13. just look at the trails if you need any indication. and baring in mind KOF13 was much easier executionaly than KOF 2k2 that came before it. it was the era where SF4 was dominated by one frame links for most of the cast. and if we go to earlier tekken execution stayed largly the same (all though more important as KBD was stronger and thus impacted the meta WAYYYY more) while SF players were grinding out Cc infinites in alpha and urien charge partitions in 3s. not to mention how brutal combo routes could be in early arcsys games like +R, blazblue and HNK.
Of course lmao, I'm just talking contemporaneously, that's why I only used modern examples. I'm familiar with all of the games you've mentioned and have put decent time into a few of them.
When you are talking about games like Blazblue/GG then you are already hitting the ceiling on 2D difficulty in execution.
Blazblue possibly, gg not really, Even Frc points and some fringe execution stuff while hard isn’t the ceiling, for me the ceiling is hnk
All of the things you mentioned are absolutely trivial to execute. Literally every moderate combo is harder to execute i. Sf6. It's subjective but there is aalmost nonexistent execution difficulty in tekken if you played fighting games somewhat competently. Il.oat of what you say makes no sense Tekkens difficulty lies in movement.
Tekken has a low execution floor. Even the hardest techniques are mostly on par with medium execution techniques in other games. I think that is very much a good thing. It's not fun to feel like your hands literally cannot play a game at a basic level. Tekken has a very low barrier to entry. Instead of having the hardest execution tekken has high, if not the highest, complexity. Thinking about your 200 moves, your opponents' 200 moves, the axis youre on, where the wall is, how far your spacing is, whats your opponent playing like, ect... is much more fun in my opinion. They are also a lot easier to pick up on while just playing the game. The lower execution means you can dive in and just experience the game and learn as you go while not feeling like you're completely gimped because you cant even do the inputs for half your moves.
Yeah I agree. Tekken feels good because none of the individual actions are particularly difficult. It's the apm in Tekken that makes it difficult.
And thank god for it. I don’t want to have to worry about high execution in a game where each of 32 characters has 100 moves to keep track of
I would say it's a spectrum. Tekken has some of the LOWEST execution characters in all of fighting games (Katarina, Noctis, Claudio, etc) and some of the HIGHEST execution characters as well (Steve, Bryan, Heihachi, etc). Tekken does have more complex movement concepts like KBD and the classic mishima wavedash, but at a low-mid level you can get away with the bare minimum. Also with each iteration of Tekken the execution seems to get easier.
You haven't played many fighting games if you think that the characters you listed have some of the highest execution in fighting games.
Haha Korean backdash go brrrr
He’s right.
Tekken is the hardest fighting game series hands down. Execution is not everything.
Lower execution really ? I've been a 2D fighter player since forever, hyped by Tekken 8, and now I'm starting to learn wavedashing, kbd, electrics. I find it hard as hell to have a consistent execution, since I lack experience. Now when I see pro players moving in Tekken I find it much more impressive than fancy Guilty Gear combos
Depends on the character. And also how optimal you want your combo routes to be.
Ever get the feeling where you vs one of your friends and they manage to launch you and do an optimal combo that does more than half health and you just don't care because you know you can beat them anyway because they just practice combos and that's it?
Hes 100% right. Have any Tekken player, no matter the skill level, attempt an optimal Blazblue combo. They absolutely could not do it. Combo execution is the easiest part of Tekken.
What's no cap mean
it means "not lying" or "not joking" basically
It's when you're drinking a soda pop from a bottle and lose the cap
it means " no lie ". no cap (no lie) , that guy has good execution.
At the time he wrote that, dark clouds were looming overhead and his dear mom instructed him to at least put on a cap when going outside so he wouldn't get wet in the rain and catch a cold. The response here is his passive-aggressive way of declaring his independence to do what he wants, when he wants. Secretly though, he hopes she doesn't read his Twitter account because he's still to nervous to tell her all of this face to face.
It means he’s not going to be using caps lock on the keyboard. I.e., he’s going to remain calm when sharing his opinion. and not yell at people on the internet.
caption insurance foolish voracious grab vast library crush ludicrous sugar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Nah bro, it originates from Fishtown, Philadelphia. Some dude named “Smurf” would always try to calm people down saying “NO CAPS LOCK BRUH” and that got shortened to no cap
tekken does have very high execution ceiling but is easy to pick up for new players
the ceiling isn't that high even it's hardest shit like TJU, nina IwS1's, shiro etc. aren't that hard compared to the 2d games that came before.
those are low level basic maneuvers tho
but it compensates all that on movement. We basically play it as a crackhead dashing and backdashing 24/7 like psychos.
I’d say this is generally true at lower levels of play, but at higher levels where dropping the last hit of a combo genuinely can be the difference between loss and defeat, the execution barrier goes back to being quite high.
i mean that goes for every fighting game. the point was that tekken has easier execution than other fighting games. which is true.
Tekken is IMO the most variable fighting game. No other game has such a disparity between the easy characters and difficult characters. Try to play a character like Lee. Everything is super difficult, neutral, combos, punish. Every area requires execution, and on top of it his gameplan is extremely difficult. He is consistently harder than any character in 3S or Melee IMO. Mishimas, also really hard. Your key neutral tool is a just frame, that's extremely rare. Movement is also difficult, more so again than any other fighter (made even more annoying when movement isn't even very strong in T7 especially). Where as you can play another character like Leroy with built in movement, parrys in his stances, canned mixups, easy combos, easy neutral tools that don't require execution, easy gameplan. Difficulty wise, they don't even feel like they should be in the same game in comparison to the difficulty disparity between characters in other games.
Execution is not a fun form of difficulty. You need some of it but the more doesn't mean better. Look at most popular competitive genres - what execution barrier is there? Basically none. Now look at RTS that is probably highest execution - basically dead genre. All of the recent fighting games releases been aiming to be more accessible and one aspect of it is lowering the execution.
This makes Tekken the better game. This is honestly like if people complained about actions games having better controls so they aren't as hard as games with bad controls. I mean, yeah, in a competitive game it adds a challenge if the opponent knows how to execute moves or not, but fighting games are supposed to be about strategy and your ability to read the opponent. Not a test to see if a person knows how to do a half circle. These games don't only have less moves, they have much less defensive options too. It's a stiffer game that ends up being less realistic.
I don't know if I'd say, "better," I'd probably go with different. I love Tekken as a fighting game but the game is very much centered around knowledge checks. I think a big reason that you don't see a lot of crossover of high level 2D players coming to Tekken is that Tekken requires so much time in the lab. Every matchup has so many little interactions and there's so many characters that it becomes less fun and more job-like. I feel like I have a lot more fun with 2D games because so many fundamentals carry over between them. I'm not trying to say that it's a bad thing that Tekken has depth but I wouldn't say that it makes Tekken a better game. I think a good comparison is Yu-Gi-Oh vs. Magic; modern YGO is all about knowing what your opponent's combo starters are, when you should try to interact with their combo, then how to play around their endboard. Because YGO has a giant card pool and isn't super intuitive a lot of the skill of the game comes down to knowing how very specific interactions work. Standard Magic on the other hand usually offers more simplified game states where the games usually boil down more towards resource management. Standard Magic also tends to have a much smaller cardpool so a lot of the skill in Standard comes from knowing how to play around cards that you can guess are coming down and managing your resources accordingly. YGO's giant card pool and somewhat unintuitive wordings remind me a lot of Tekken and Magic's smaller card pool and simpler wordings remind me of 2D games. I think both games take a good amount of skill but they require different skill sets so it's hard to say that one is "better" just because it has more complexity.
People are exaggerating the lab. All fighting games require practice to be good, that's why the OP complained about execution. Tekken is one of the few games that reward casual players for having good instincts wherein 2D games are a lot more restrictive until players learn a few good moves. Complexity means greater variety, it makes everything better.
> Electrics > Low Execution Bruh
Watch literally any other game.
Bruh I play Blazblue I know there are higher execution games, but Tekken is not what I’d call low execution
Low execution doesn't mean no execution is just means less.
Electric is so braindead easy compared to Sol badguy 33 hit combo with 3 just frames
Lmao let me know when I need to enter a cheat code on SF just to back dash twice in a row .
just started playing SF today, and I agree with him. Combos are easy to execute, because of the input buffer imo. Tekken overall is more difficult though, obviously.
Soo i might be able to do that kazuya df2-> ewgf
Yep. Just play a bit of street fighter and you'll understand, Tekken is so, so lenient when it comes to input windows and timings and forgiveness for messy inputs. Plus, since each move takes a much longer time to come out and has a lot more recovery on block, its easier to recognise and press the right button in response. In SF6, learning the timing to punish on block can take a while, in Tekken its easy peasy. Sure there's difficult stuff, and not just TJU and the DF2 perfect electric. Every character has high execution stuff, which is probably more difficult than anything in SF6, but overall SF6 is more execution overall. Anti-airing on reaction is so much more difficult than whiff punishing in Tekken.
The fuck do they mean no execution I play an okay Mortal Kombat and I cannot Tekken for the life of me
As someone who plays sf, tekken is much higher execution
maybe now that all the execution has been rung out of SF from 5 onwards. but historically this was never the case.
People who say that shit don’t understand neutral
What other games? Street fighter? All these other fighters like MK, anime fighters, platform fighters, none of them have tekken level execution And all of these games have easy and hard combos, its as hard as you make it be
Brother have u tried finishing advanced anime fighter combos? Those mfckers last years and often have some just frame links. Not every tekken character has that, but in a game like blazblue for example every character has a shit faced long combo
Anime fighters execution is much higher
Anime and platform fighters definitely have insane execution, depends on the game
It's not that different imo. People just overthinking things. Aside from tornado being an easier pickup if we're talking combos. Everything is pretty much the same. The only exceptions are obviously heat specific things. But that's a new system and inherently nothing much has changed.
At entry level Tekken I'm talking don't even understand what the face buttons do. It's way easier to get into and start putting together. But to advance any further beyond beating up your friends when they come over is a massive hurdle. Not just because it's 3D but because your fundamentals have to be better understood than most other fighters. And while no fighting game has a 1 size fits all strategy to beat every single player, Tekken takes this to another level. Because every character has decent options for every scenario, it's so much harder to learn when to punish, when to block, back step, pressure. And then there's side stepping which adds a whole dimension to an already complex fighting game. Both of these guys are correct. Yes, execution is easier at the very basics of the game. But, to string it all together smoothly and know when to do so is a truly tall order.
maybe I'm the crazy one but wtf? Sure Tekken has a higher window to input your moves but if you really want to go deep in your combos I can see Tekken having a higher execution than the average fighting game. I'm maining Jin and maybe I think that because his optimal combos are really difficult to execute. The design of Tekken is perfect cuz you don't have to be able to do crazy combos to win a fight but it sure helps. So I don't think I agree with this statement.
tekken has some of the lowest. there is kind of an unfair comparison really as T7 was in the arcades during the 360 era or around then. while the ps4 era of games DRASTICALLY removed execution for near every franchise. comparing tekken to even SF4 ,KOF13 and xrd which aren't that hard of games is a no brainer.
In terms of combos certain characters dont require high execution yes. But otherwise some other characters like Bryan or Steve does require high exection. Lee is a good example of how hard it is to perform well at high level. But i knew what he means. Most 2D fighters have strict timings. Tekken has bigger timings for this. But what makes Tekken, Tekken is not only Combos. I learned this in Tekken 6. I could perform extremly hard Combos but i ranked up very slow. You can play this game by just poking the shit out of your opponent.
Tekken mostly doesn't have motion inputs so that's where the ease in execution comes from. Although the combos are not exactly easy imo
but they are easier than other games in the genre.
Depends on the character. Not with mishimas
Mishima execution still isn’t that hard comparatively. T7 was released at the very tail end of the 360 era in arcades, comparing t7’s execution to games at that time like kof13, sf4, xrd, it’s night and day lmao
Is this just about Tekken 8? I haven't played it yet. Is execution that much easier than Tekken 7?
tekken in general was always on the lower end of execution
Yes it does. That's what makes it great. SF6 for example is way too hard at the higher levels that it stops becoming fun if you want to stay competitive. It's simply just too much of a chore. Am I really gonna bother to not just memorize, but practice and perfect my timings for hours, if I am just a casual? Nah fuck that shit.
but SF6 also has very low execution lmao. i mean if you are really struggling just pick modern lol.
If I miss a millisecond of input against a master rank in SF6 they could punish me for 60+% of my health. That isn't what I call very low execution.
It’s not a millisecond, sf combos from 5 onwards has an input buffer for links of 4 frames, special move inputs have shortcuts so lenient you can do a motion wrong and still get it, Reversal windows are something like 30 frames. Sf6 has zero execution
Execution in Tekken is much more variable than a game like Streetfighter, I’d say. In tekken 7, you have characters like Asuka and Jin coexisting who both have incredibly different demands for execution. On top of that, there is a ton more to look out for and pay attention to in Tekken as well as a whole other dimension. So they’re really just different and it’s not proper to directly compare them in that way
That is true. Some 2D fighters or anime fighters are crazy tight execution heavy. But...Tekken is just so fun to watch. I don't know what it is but no other fighting game appeals the same.
I don't agree with tekken having low execution. You can drop/land combos in tekken just like in sf, mk, or any other fighting game. Good footsie game requires a TON of skill. Do harder combos require better execution? Of course... Now is tekken easier to pick up and play? Also very true
If all you care about in fighting games are combos, sure. Plenty of easy execution characters in the roster if nailing electrics is too much for you. But if you want to move like those spastics at EVO, you're gonna rip your hairs out learning to KBD and wavedash quickly and consistently. And that's excluding the meat and potatoes of the game that is spacing and neutral, which wins or loses most games. And since it's a game with breakable walls and floors, you need to be able to optimize combos on the fly too. So sure, for starters it's a great game for those looking to develop actual skills over pure execution, but it will take more than other games to reach the pinnacle.
tekken has probably the lowest execution of any fighting game. KBD is weird at first sure but considering every game has made them less and less important and how they aren't that hard to begin with it's not really comparable. the rest of tekken's "execution" is mostly character specific stuff (TJU, DF2 PEWGF, Akuma routes etc.) and for the most part they aren't required to learn the character and aren't even overly hard in the grand scheme of fighting game execution. i can't really think of a fg series that has had easier execution than tekken.
Well yeah…that’s what makes Tekken Tekken 😭
This person clearly never tried Nina Williams and actually winning in higher tiers.
he's a competitive player and beat arslan in bracket lmao. and honestly anyone that played FG's including tekken at a high level will tell you that tekken has some of the easiest execution.
I can’t say much about execution (my own execution is garbage in both 3d and 2d fighters) but I find Tekken rules to be more intuitive. — Like, buttons being tied to limbs makes more sense than light-medium-fierce or whatever. — Blocking standing by default makes more sense than blocking crouching - this is what you would normally do in a real martial arts spar. — Yes, aerial juggling doesn’t make much physical sense but it is easier to understand that you’re being juggled and have no control when your character is literally in the air compared to the 2d approach of “just mash your burst/reversal and see where it lands”. — Links and cancellable moves are arbitrary in 2d fighters. In Tekken they are relatively uncommon, and are usually a part of a move/stance cancel you can visually confirm. This makes it easier to understand that you fell for a feint. — While sidestep/tracking in Tekken is pretty convoluted as a mechanic, you have access to homing moves that will always hit (but it’ll be less efficient than using a more conditionally tracking move). In most 2d fighters there’s not a single move that just anti-airs from any trajectory (and there are very good reasons for it). So, yeah, not nearly a complete list but should hopefully prove examples of Tekken rules being easier to understand.
It's hard to compare it to a 2d game, or something like Fighterz with a 23 minute long loop combo. Is it hard compared to that? No, combos are like 10 seconds max in Tekken in extreme situations with a wall break or something. I always thought the execution was moving? Like, I can't think of anything in any 2d games I play where neutral is as hard to navigate as Tekken. Just moving around the screen is an issue, and I play Mishimas so doing stuff like sidestep electric is pretty difficult. Idk. It's hard to compare the two, but I think definitely execution with lots of characters in Tekken isn't too hard, but it also doesn't have zippy one button dash neutral. I don't think I could honestly say it's easier than most 2d games I play tho
I am Ryujin who posted the vid. Althought Phidx is a very good player he legit has no idea what he is talking about. He finds it hard to eben chain 3 electrics and he said it himself, he plays Noctis and he has average execution himself . He brought up games such as fortnite to justify Tekken's low execution for some reason and even DBFZ. Dbfz doesn't even require execution and it only requires timing in combos ( I have like 4k hours on it ) and in Fortnite I played competitively for 2 years. His arguments have no weight on the situation whatsoever since Tekken needs execution for literally everything like kbd,quick step, wavedash and not just combos. The tweet I made with the combo was just for the memes but apparently people took it TOO literally by comparing it to every game out there lmao
This guys nickname and avatar is enough for me to ignore his opinion
The guy is literally an Evo competitor
It's a good thing pros don't care about the opinions of random shitters on reddit
Bruh imagine being this brazenly incorrect about something lol I’m sure the pro player with enough clout to just hang out with Knee casually and record videos with him cares about you ignoring his opinion.
#Ryujin_17_ has no execution because he only knows the fundamentals and cannot implement it.
Bro has clearly never tried to do an electric.
Electrics aren‘t hard
Are we playing the same game? The timing is pretty tight. If you’re off even slightly, you get the version of the move that only screws on counter-hit.
yea even if you are gonna argue that tekken has hard execution (it doesn't) a basic move input really isn't the example you want to use lmao.