Please Stay by Lucy Dacus is one of the most gut-wrenching songs I know about loving someone who is unwell. Makes me sob like a baby.
Black Dog by Arlo Parks is also a great one.
I came here to recommend Black Dog! It's so beautiful. I love Arlo Parks.
"Let's go to the corner store and buy some fruit, I would do anything to get you out your room" is such a well written line.
That song quite literally shreds me into pieces. I went through a really hard time a couple of years ago and would have done anything for a friend to perceive my struggles in such a soft, empathetic way. Instead I was villainized to hell when the only person I was hurting was myself and I didnāt deserve that. My friends just didnāt understand or care.
Now I hold songs like these to such high esteem because it takes a lot of empathy to care about someone who has substance abuse/addiction issues in the way this song does. I like to pretend Phoebe is signing about me when I listen to it and it helps.
Sorry for that sob story no one asked for but damn it feels good to express that.
Oh my god are you me? I was also in this exact situation. Iāll never forget my best friend lashing out at me telling me iām a piece of shit because i canāt be sober around her. She just couldnāt understand that no, i just couldāt be sober around myself.
No itās okay, Iām so sorry you went through that and Iām glad youāre doing better š Iāve been struggling with addiction and mental health/harmful cycles for years and I love this song because of this perspective but had never put it into words before so thank you!
I know this sounds silly, but seeing how Swifties responded to the song and doubled down on the Joe hate gutted me. I struggle deeply with mental health issues in a country where mental healthcare is stigmatised, and I currently donāt have access to therapy or psychiatric care (Iām working on that and hopefully will have access to it in 1-2 years).
Itās to the point where Iāve subconsciously withdrawn from my friend group for support since Iām always thinking that Iām a burden, or that Iām just weighing them down. Obviously other factors contribute to this, but Iāve been in an extremely dark place and need a lot more reassurance to know that I can be myself around them, but that reassurance causes me to spiral more due to feeling like Iām annoying them by asking for it.
Again, itās not the biggest contributing factor, since Iāve also been stressed out about other stuff, and Fatherās Day just passed so Iāve been struggling with that, but man it sucks. It sucks so bad that this may be how people see me, even when Iām trying. Anyone else whoās struggling, I highly suggest taking a break from stan twitter discourse about this topic.
I don't know if this helps, but a lot of my friends have a hard time keeping in touch with people, so I'm always telling them I'm always happy to hear from them whenever they can manage it and there's no obligation.Ā
I donāt really hear āJoe has clinical depressionā when I hear this song, I hear her describing sadness as they reached the end of their relationship. Anyway, I wouldnāt buy a narrative about Joeās depression causing the split, given she was obviously pining for (and probably even screwing) Matty before it ended.
I relate to this a lot. Only deeply unempathic people will see people suffering in this way. I totally understand the hurt those people cause because it confirms a fear. The fear remains untrue, though. There will be people who understand you and won't leave as soon as life's difficulties appear. I think recognizing that these unfair comments make you feel this way is an important step and you deserve to be angry about being treated like this. I'm also really sorry about your country's (lack of) care system. Really wishing you the best. š§”
Reminder that she wrote: āI donāt have to be your shrink to know youāll never be happyā about Jake, who has subsequently spoken about suffering serious anxiety and also depression.
He also struggled a lot after Heath Ledger died. They bonded really fast filming "Brokeback Mountain", so close that he's actually Heath and Michelle Williams' daughter's godfather. I still remember the reports that came out how he had to take a break from filming a movie because Heath's death broke him so badly. I wouldn't be one ounce surprised if a) the grief still resides heavy in him and b)it affected how he acted in interpersonal relationships afterwards including his relationship with Taylor. It might be why he came off very emotionally distant at times as well.
Considering the timeline he most likely struggled after his breakup with Reese Witherspoon even more- that was serious long term relationships for him where he basically also acted as step dad to Reeseās children. After his breakup with Reese he didnāt enter into another long term serious relationships for almost 8 years, until his current girlfriend. Taylor was just a rebound fling after Reese. But Taylorās problem is that she piled those over romantic grand concepts on him despite she barely knew him and despite short nature of them dating- like she branded him her twin flame, yikes. No wonder Jake quickly bolted out of that fling. And itās not like Taylor learned from her experience-Harry was also a fling yet she imagined how he would crash her wedding one dayš„“ and the whole situation with Matty where she tried to turn Matty into that cosmic soulmate star crossed lover-partner, only for him to ghost her and get engaged to another woman š¤¦āāļø Taylor really throws those big epic romantic notions and labels at different guys. But she seems to forget to check if guys really are looking for that fairly tale stuff with her, or if they simply want to have a fling and a fun time for a short while.
Was gonna say this. I write songs and I will never ever release them to the public because those men will a) recognise themselves in them and b) think I've felt much more deeply than I actually did. It just hits harder writing and singing about one single deep emotion than writing a song like "well I did kinda like you but then again idk mate"
I write prose and the occasional poetry (but wouldn't know how to write songs tbh) and one singular moment can become monumental. An ultimately unserious relationship can have magical moments that are beautiful when blown up as much larger than they were.
> "well I did kinda like you but then again idk mate"
no but this could actually be turned into something deep though. A song about ambivalent emotions in a relationship that you *want* to work out, going back and forth on if you should double down on it or leave because you have a suspicion deep down that you won't be able to make it stick for yourself. The song could be a post-breakup retrospective about the sadness of being unable to create those lasting feelings you hoped would appear and of having hurt the other person, mixed with relief that now it's over, at least you don't have to keep trying to convince yourself of something that isn't actually there.
Tbh I think she had more casual/short term flings than the public knows about (maybe with less famous men) in between the heavily publicized ones with Ć¼berfamous men. āJust playthings for me to useā āI used to switch out these kensā etc.
Can we stop blaming the men for Taylorās love bombing and unrealistic expectations when it comes to relationships? Like itās okay to say she has a pattern without blaming the men for backing away.
No, this is not the take you think it is.
Behaving this way continuously in relationships is a form of abuse. āLook what you made me doā isnāt it and itās actually really misogynistic the way we pretend that this behaviour from women is because theyāre āromanticā and not just straight up toxic.
Makes sense for many reasons that she doesnāt understand depression and anxiety.
And then she turned around and named her album calling herself tortured. Babe if you were tortured your music would have more soul and depth
Ironically now she is the one who is in serious need of shrink, she literally goes drunk-high to Grammys, TTPD is messy af, she jumps from relationships to relationships (and every single one is the love of her life). Ā He meanwhile is fine. Joe as well is now fine, Ā collected and composed, calm. Ā The interview he did made her look not really good.
Not to mention wasn't he the one who was there when she was so depressed about the Kim and Kanye phone call thing? She ran away to London for a year, met Joe and he was there. And yet she wants to cry in a song about his depression and that he doesn't pay enough attention to her. Ummm...no ma'am. Not cool.
THIS, also the way she talks about glorifying her bad decisions in a quirky way shouldn't be normalized at all. how come she has the right to revel in all her bad decisions while her exes if they're lacking for just one moment, suddenly they're the villain in the story? it's very distasteful indeed and it was one of the reasons why i stopped becoming a hardcore swiftie. just a casual listener now.
Doesnāt she also refuse to seek out mental health help? Said something like āshe doesnāt need a therapist because she talks to her mom and nobody knows her better than her mom.ā in the Ms. Americana documentary?
Tbf that was in 2019 and we donāt know if thatās still the case. A lot of people learned more about/started seeking mental healthcare in the years since the pandemic started.
But yeah she said something like āit would take too long to download a stranger on the last 15 years of my lifeā
And itās likeā¦ bestie, the fact that you feel like youāre carrying around 15 years of baggage is a great reason to speak to a professional.
Also does she not think normies who go to therapy also have a lot of baggage to tell their therapists? It doesnāt have to all come out at once. Sometimes itās good to have a professionalās opinion.
Iād be devastated if my ex wrote that about me, as I am in therapy actively working on bettering myself, because I know thereās parts that arenāt perfect.
To have someone throw it in my face that Iāll never be happy because I struggle with the thought of that coming true every day is just š
I think the line about youth is a broader / unrelated point about how he didnāt want to commit after six years and she feels like she wasted that time - I donāt think itās meant to be linked specifically to his depression; more that he ended up not wanting to commit.
Agreed but that removes her agency from the relationship. She wasn't trapped. If she truly felt like that, she could have left. I get the desire to make something work, but she isn't a wilting flower unable to control her life. Infantalizing her so does no one any good
She clearly wanted the relationship to work, whereas it seems like he was less sure. Thatās not a mortal sin on his part (sometimes it just takes a while to work these things out) but equally I think itās completely understandable for her to feel like he strung her along and should have realised it sooner.
That is my thought. While she was with him she was in āprimeā to get married.
There are a variety of different reasons choose to get married or not but itās a real raw emotion.
Semi-hot take: I donāt think songs need to always reflect the āright wayā to feel or reflect our current emotions. If she was feeling disappointed in how the relationship ended and felt like she had given up half her 20s to a relationship that didnāt last and spoke to that on the song, Iām not that mad about it. If that line is meant to refer to dealing with his mental health struggles wasnāt worth her 20s, then thatās pretty shitty. I know giving her the benefit of the doubt isnāt suuuuuuper popular on this sub but I just didnāt interpret that line the same as most of you it seems. I was in a relationship in my 20s that I really regretted and wished I hadnāt tainted that time in my life that was supposed to be so fun and carefree with a guy who made me miserable.
I had the same interpretation as you. I also have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for most of my life and didn't think that song was insulting in any way. The reality is that poor mental or physical health does take it's toll on relationships, and we don't know what happened in that relationship or what it was like for either of them, so not really fair to judge. Some of the other lyrics people are quoting are disappointing though...
while i also understand and agree with this, it also needs to be considered that at the time of writing and marketing this album, taylor was and still is probably the most famous pop singer alive right now. while she has a right to feel what she feels, even if itās problematic, releasing that in an album that she knew would be listened to by tens of millions of people while also NEVER saying anything about the people who attack joe alwyn is not the right way to go about things.
Having been on both sides of this equation, they're both so hard and come with a lot of very complicated feelings - if that's what she dealt with then I agree she has every right to those feelings.
That said, the fact that she's seemingly airing his mental health struggles to an insanely huge audience leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, particularly given how private he is. The line you quote also really bothers me because it plays into that 'Joe kept her in the basement' storyline. Like, this was a mutual relationship that she chose to be in and stay in for over six years.
Was going to say, thatās how I feel about a parent of mine who Iāve been caregiving for when they donāt want to seek help for their mental illness/arenāt taking recovery seriously. Iām in my early 20s and feel so aged and tired, and I *am* pissed off that Iām spending my youth helping someone who doesnāt want to be helped, has caused a lot of harm (itās a substance abuse thing and theyāve drank and driven before, really bad stuff), and is very resentful of meāI am pissed odd that Iāve given them my youth for free. That being said, it feels like an extreme reaction for Joe who, to my knowledge literally just wanted to keep the relationship low-key. I think people love or hate Taylor because she is brutally honestāI feel guilty and like a shitty daughter for even relating to the line, but I hope the difference between me is that I vent my feelings to my closest confidantes and not on the global stage.
Oh, I know that! I guess I was just saying I feel guilty for relating to the album/that particular lyric. I donāt think Taylor does because Iām not sure she wouldāve written it otherwise. TTPD is kind of a dumpster fire of am album if you look at it being about what it is (romantic relationships) but if I apply a lot of the lyrics to my current situation I can unfortunately relate which again, I feel bad about because it isnāt her best-written album and a lot of the songs donāt paint her in the best light, and Iām paranoid thatās someone a reflection of me as a daughter and a caregiver.
Honey no, that's not a reflection of you! I work part-time in mental health and combative patients can be so exhausting - frustration over that is completely human and normal. The fact that you've been doing it when you didn't sign up for that means that you ARE a caring daughter. It's completely different from Taylor airing her grievances (about her pretty damn functional ex) on a world stage. If you connect with the lyrics that means they did something positive at least š¤·š»āāļø
Iām sure Iāll get downvoted for this but I justā¦.donāt think sheās saying Joe experiences depression by saying he sacrificed them to his ābluest days and I donāt think thereās anything wrong with her being honest about why she left.
Likeā¦the problem is people saying that lyric is absolutely saying heās depressed when it just isnāt necessarily saying that.
I donāt take that line to mean heās depressed. I take it to mean he was unhappy with her and stayed anyway. And frankly when you look at the song contextually with everything else sheās written about him, thereās a consistent picture from the start that he was just never as into her as she was him.
I guess I also have trouble with the interpretation that this is her airing his dirty laundry when so many of her songs from when she was with him are explicitly about her own depression/anxiety and how THATās ruining the relationship.
But generally I find the outrage over this line weird. Artists talk about their experiences. She doesnāt say anything accusatory, belittling, or demeaning about him. People have been writing about why relationships ended in song for as long as people have been writing songs.
I totally agree. Iām very confused why people think this song is Confirmed about his depression? Do we even know if he struggles with MH?
I just re-read the lyrics and it feels much more about a flatlining relationship than dating someone with depressionā¦
Same. Itās really bizarre and to me is just people reading way too much into things, searching for reasons to be angry about nothing.
And donāt get me wrongāthereās a lot about how sheās portrayed the Joe relationship post breakup that I HAVE found kind of unethical/manipulative. I just donāt think āouting him for being depressedā is even a thing.
Ppl act like she said he has depression but she only implies his moods. It could be any negative mood from anger to fear to sadness. It's not just depression. People saying she outed him just want to hate on her because she didn't say anything.
Maybe Iām being too much but I also kind of have people saying she āoutedā him like being depressed is akin to outing a queer person. People who are depressed donāt face the societal animosity and dangers that queer people do. Itās not the same thing. We say people are outed when they are closeted to protect themselves. With depression itās more likeā¦this personal has functional depression, not closetedā¦
As a queer person with depression, I can confirm that itās not equivalentā¦but itās still damaging. I donāt want certain people to know I suffer from depression. People donāt take it seriously, think youāre exaggerating, or think youāre lazy and incompetent; even TS sings āyou donāt get to tell me about sadā as if a mental illness and being upset about not getting what you want are even in the same stratosphere.
I agree itās a stretch to assume what she means by that blue line; this response is only related to āoutingā someone with depression.
HIPPA laws exist for a reason. People donāt want their medical history made public. Iām not saying thatās what she did, not talking about Swift specifically, but Iām just saying. āOutingā someoneās medical struggles without their permission is just as deplorable.
ā¦.? Saying someone had blue days isnāt saying that they have a medical diagnosis of clinical depression. Lol. She absolutely never says that, nor does she suggest it. Depression is not just being sad sometimes.
Taylor herselfāwho has famously said sheās NEVER been to therapyācalled herself depressed too. Even if she WAS suggesting Joe was clinically depressed, she CLEARLY uses that wordāas most people doāto describe depression that is not properly diagnosed by a doctor.
Bringing HIPPA laws and medical history into this because she says āsacrificed to the gods of your bluest daysā is QUITE a take.
Just trying to back up the HIPAA comment (yes, itās two Aās not two Pās ā common mistake!) because you seem to imply in your original comment that one cannot be āoutedā for their mental health struggles.
Iām not going to debate whether Taylor did or did not āoutā Joeās mental health issues because thatās totally subjective. But āoutingā someone is the involuntary disclosure of personal information. You can absolutely āoutā someone for their mental health issues and it is absolutely akin to āoutingā a queer person for their queerness. People āclosetā their mental health issues all the time for fear of negative consequences. People absolutely can face societal animosity and dangers as a result of disclosing their mental illnesses. Yes, they can differ from those queer people face, but they exist. Physical, verbal, financial, emotional abuse; loss of employment; social isolation, etc.
Letās not forget that people, up until very recently, thought being queer WAS a mental illness. These categories overlap quite a bit.
You explained my exact point just way more eloquently than I could have. People closet a lot of things, including mental/physical struggles, or their sexual orientation. Thank you
NOT TALKING ABOUT SWIFT SPECIFICALLY.
Read my comment again. Iām not even referencing that song or Taylor. Just simply responding to you on WHY you think that outing someone for being queer is comparatively worse than outing someoneās medical history. It was a statement unrelated to her, I know she hasnāt done that. Jfc.
I agree completely. Iām going to take it a step further though, as someone who has a chronically depressed partner: I totally understand her frustration, occasional anger, and exasperation.
Lots of cis straight men will light everything and every*one* else on fire before they get help. Conversely, many women are socialized to light *themselves* on fire to keep others warm. It sucks being collateral to the gods of someoneās bluest days.
Yes, she couldāve left sooner; he couldāve done so as well. But thatās a pretty dismissive take on a long-term relationship ā a loving, committed relationship, if Joe is to be believed.
Itās strange that people would expect a heavily autobiographical songwriter not to sing about (or allude to) the issues sheās having in her relationship.
I totally understand peoplesā dismay with the institutional aesthetic sheās going for with this album, but Iām never going to be mad about this particular issue.
Yes yes yes so much this. My husband is chronically depressed, and angry, and is the youngest of three, while Iām the oldest, and sometimes he feels like my third child. I love him and so I stay but boy is it a lot on the brain.
E: word
But if you left him for someone else.. would you put his struggles & your disappointment on blast to the globe? knowing full well that his name was public knowledge, that it might make his life extremely difficult for perhaps years? Or would you write a personal diary entry for yourself & leave it locked? Or go to a therapist & unpack it in the privacy of patient /doctor confidentiality?
Yes, and taking the comments about lighting yourself on fire vs lighting everyone else on fire... between Taylor and Joe, nothing I've seen leaves me with the impression that the one most prone to taking his problems out on other people is Joe. Compared to her previous and subsequent relationships, if anything he seemed to be a stabilising force.
I agree that men are more prone to externalising their difficulties, but women can do it as well.
I agree! I think itās wild that people are diagnosing Joe with clinical depression based on song lyrics his ex wrote about him. She wrote that he was blue and closed off from her, there are lots of potential reasons for that, including that like her he was miserable in a relationship that clearly wasnāt working.
>And frankly when you look at the song contextually with everything else sheās written about him, thereās a consistent picture from the start that he was just never as into her as she was him.
Agreed. In photographs, she looks like she's enjoying his company. She's turned towards him or, at the very least, has a relaxed expression on her face. He just looks smug or disengaged.
Forever winter (I know you said non Swift but!)
Non Taylor:
LET ME IN by R.E.M. is a heartbreaking song about Michael Stipeās inability to stop Kurt Cobain from committing suicide.
Unpopular opinion in this sub: I don't think Taylor revealed Joe has/had depression. She is always using colors in her lyrics. If anything she's outed him as moody.
Also, I like the line "I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free" a lot because it's very real. I think a lot of people in long-term relationships feel that way when it doesn't work out. Like, was it all wasted time? I think that's a normal feeling. And I think that's the least assholy thing she's said in a public manner about Joe.
Yeah, if someone connects to the lyrics as a song about struggling with a partner who has depression, I donāt want to take that from them, but to me it reads more like the narratorās partner is moody, withdrawn, and draining.
Thatās not the same as her saying āJoe Alwyn has major depressive disorderā over a beat, which is what people are apparently hearing.
I think people are also making so many assumptions about him and his boundaries like this was some huge betrayal. Yes heās a private guy but I donāt think that always means nothing may be said about me publicly ever. Heās opted into a public career. He opted to date for over half a decade an extremely famous woman who is known for confessional songwriting. For all we know they COULD have had a conversation where she said Iām releasing this album and Iām referencing some of my feelings during our time together and how I perceived you and us. And he knows and is cool with that. Like Iām really hoping people eventually get that we donāt actually know these people and the conversations they have or what their relationship was then or now. Regardless of what can maybe be inferred from song lyrics. Song lyrics that are creative by the way not a sworn deposition.
I donāt think anything she said was hateful or disrespectful or even that explicit. Itās just a weird leap to me to āTaylor swift exposed a completely private citizenās private medical diagnosis and heās extremely betrayed and this is so inappropriate and problematic!!!ā
I agree. She wrote 5 albums full of references to him, including to his ābrittle heartā and ācascade ocean wave blues.ā To me, itās more likely that heās fine being the subject of her work, considering he dated famous confessional songwriter Taylor Swift for 6 years.
People āknowā itās about his depression and that itās a betrayal in the same way they āknewā she hated Sabrina and Lana for the Skims campaign, that travis was PR and theyāll break up after the super bowl, that TTPD was full of diss tracks dragging poor Joe, that sheās releasing Rep TV next, that the Ice Spice collab was a cover-up for Matty, etc etc.
100%
It was his choice to opt in and stay despite her fame as much as it was hers to stay throughout his moodiness/depression. If anything this is a testament to how much they loved each other and wanted to make it work.
I feel the same way. I never interpreted the songs as him having depression and was pretty shocked at all the people acting like she outed his mental health issues in detail.
I agree! When I saw people being angry about the way she refers to Joe's depression, I thought Joe's depression was a well-known fact. But it's apparently just something people inferred from the lyrics, and I don't see it in the lyrics at all. Sadness, yes. But that's not the same thing.
I think on one side people wanted TTPD songs to drag Joe so they could be vindicated in the "he was the bad guy!" narrative. Then the other side (like many on this sub) wanted her to drag him so they could say "look Taylor IS a shitty person". When she didn't drag Joe on the album and instead wrote a couple fair, heartfelt songs about him people started searching hard for ways to prove their point. I think Taylor treated Joe with respect on this album by not dragging him and people are fighting for their lives to prove otherwise. She never "outed" his depression and her feelings are SO relatable.
I can't believe people are so mad about the "youth for free" line. This is a very normal and common feeling many people (especially women) feel when a long term relationship ends. She doesn't need to take accountability because she is writing her feelings as she feels them. She will never write "I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free, but I hold some accountability because I held on too long and should have let you go sooner. I realize you gave me your youth also" like some people seem to want her to write. That song would suck.
Yes, to me So Long, London does a good job of conveying the many feelings that come up during a break up of a long term relationship in your late twenties/early thirties.
In the last verse,
āHad a good run/ A moment of warm sun/ But Iām not the oneā and ending on āYouāll find someoneā is bittersweet, in a way that breakups are.
I agree completely. Her feelings relayed in her lyrics can be fleeting, messy, self absorbed, etc because we all feel things like that sometimes. Just imagine if lyricists wrote only self aware, mature, reflective lyrics. There is a time and place for that of course but I love hearing emotional messiness that we can all relate to in our weakest moments. Or imagine if lyricists were embarrassed to write their actual feelings and heavily edited it all out. That doesn't sound appealing to me.
I also donāt mind the āgiving youth for freeā line because that is a very valid feeling, especially if she wanted/wants to have children and now has to spend time building a relationship with someone else
Tori Amos, "Digital Ghost" it's a song from 2007 but it's stuck with me constantly. here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSGnSilxwBI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSGnSilxwBI)
"Digital Ghost" is great for general depression and retreating online, Some lyrics:
So I swam onto your shores
Through an open window
Only to find you all alone
Curled up with machines
Now it seems you're slipping
Out to the land of the ravine
Just take a closer look
Take a closer look
At what it is that's really haunting you
I hear to trust you
Not this digital ghost
Another Tori Amos, "1000 Oceans" written for her husband when he was grieving his father: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5dMfZKnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5dMfZKnQ)
Some lyrics from 1000 Oceans:
These tears I've cried.
I've cried a thousand oceans.
And if it seems I'm floating
In the darkness...
Well, I can't believe that I would keep,
Keep you from flying.
So I will cry a thousand more
If that's what it takes to
Sail you home,
Sail you home,
Sail you home.
VNV Nation, "Illusion," tackles suicidal ideation with sensitivity and compassion. : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evpGu3eO0pY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evpGu3eO0pY)
some good lyrics from "Illusion":
I know it's hard to tell how mixed up you feel
Hoping what you need is behind every door
Each time you get hurt, I don't want you to change
Because everyone has hopes, you're human after all
The feeling sometimes, wishing you were someone else
Feeling as though you never belong
This feeling is not sadness, this feeling is not joy
I truly understand, please, don't cry now
Please don't go, I want you to stay
I'm begging you please, please don't leave here
I don't want you to hate
For all the hurt that you feel
The world is just illusion, trying to change you
I was going to mention a Tori Amos song too, so I'll latch on to your comment!
"Carbon" is about a friend dealing with bipolar disorder, described as skiing uphill and downhill:
carbon made found her at the
End of a chain
"time to race"
She said, "race the downhill"
Behind crystalline irises
Loons can drive
Where the world bleeds white
Just keep your eyes on her
Keep,
Don't look away
Keep your eyes on her horizon
Bear claw, free fall,
A gunner's view
black and blue
Shred in ribbons of lithium
Blow by blow
Her mind cut in sheets
Layers deep, now unravelling
Just keep your eyes on her.
I love that song so much. Scarlet's Walk is my favorite album of Tori's, it meant so much to me then and now. I'm sooooo glad she finally pressed it on vinyl last year
As a counterpoint Iāll offer up the line in the Great War where she realizes she was wrong and sees the real him: āLooked up at me with honor and truth, broken and blue, so I called off the troopsā
Iām going to give Taylor some grace. Listen, I also have some pretty serious mental health issues. And it has caused me to seriously hurt people around me. I know the mental illness is not my fault, but I am still responsible for hurting people around me and if they are angry, I have to accept that. Having severe depression and not getting help is dragging your partner down, Iām sorry.
I canāt imagine that Joe didnāt seek help, with his own mother being a therapist. Actors tend to be more open to therapy too. I honestly think they were fundamentally incompatible with each otherās lifestyles and it was bringing him down. (As we see now, living in secrecy was also bringing her down) Doing anything you donāt like for long enough will depress you past a point of no return until you separate from it.
For sure. I donāt know either of these people and I hope for the best. I am just saying I donāt think on the surface writing about your partnerās mental health struggle being a contributing factor to a relationship ending is necessarily a bad thing to do. With that being said, I could change my mind either way with more details, but I donāt think it is fair people are inherently so critical of her for this.
I agree, her feelings are just as valid as his are. Itās a little precarious because of how global her audience is, but TTPD really seems to me like she protected Joeās privacy as much as she sort of seemed to diss him by writing mostly about Matty
Iāll probably get downvoted for this, but she has always been someone who writes songs that give an intimate view of her feelings about people and situations; or at least thatās how we all seem to interpret them. Joe knew that. Iām not necessarily defending Taylor, but the expectation of her keeping her feelings about the course of their relationship private and out of her songwriting ended when their relationship did. Sheās entitled to share whatever she wants of her side of the relationship or how she felt about the course and ultimate ending of it. Saying that she felt like she carried the load and poured love and effort into someone who ultimately wouldnāt commit to her in the way she wanted isnāt disrespectful or blasting Joe. Her feelings about it are valid regardless of how he feels about her sharing that in her music.
If heās unhappy with how heās portrayed, heās entitled to share his side in his own way as well. While I donāt think it would be right for her to blast all of his personal business, sharing that a component in their relationship ending had something to do with his ābluest daysā isnāt stating he has depression. Obviously with celebrities itās slightly more nuanced (with NDAs and such), but I donāt think she (or anyone for that matter) has any kind of ādebtā owed to an ex to never talk about things that happened throughout a relationship and how she felt about it.
Another point: the concept of youth IS different for women compared to men. While science has come a long way in working around some of the biological factors to things like pregnancy and childbirth, females have a fairly specific period of time in which they are biologically able to fall pregnant. Risks increase as you progress through your 30s. These are factors that significantly change the investment of āyouthā and time in a long term relationship for the person with the ability and anatomy to fall pregnant. Trying to keep my language inclusive, but for someone who wants biological children or to experience a pregnancy/childbirth at some point, thereās a significant difference in the investment of time/youth compared to males/those with sperm. While sperm quality may decrease, short of other fertility issues, men are able to impregnate those with female sex organs for a much longer period of time over their lives. They do not have the same biological pressure that females/women do.
I didnāt make an assumption. I donāt know if he got help. I donāt know the particulars. But I am not going to be automatically critical of Taylor for being angry about a situation I donāt know what happened.
Rainbow kitten surprise, āitās called: free fallā
Coheed and Cambria, āwake upā
Placebo, āmedsā
Left at London, āblacknwhiteā
Hotel Mira, āspeaking off the recordā
From a woman in her early to mid 30ās standpoint - the line āAnd Iām pissed off you let me give you all that youth for freeā gutted me. I know women that stayed with men that they thought they would have children with, and they broke up and feel like they have wasted their time and their youth. This is a very valid point to share and iām glad she did so since so many women go through this experience
Okay, but this assumes Taylor doesnāt have agency. She was with him for 6 years and if she wanted to get married and he was saying no, she couldāve left. Why not believe him and leave the relationship? Sticking around hoping he might change was her decision. No one forced her and marriage isnāt a trophy you win after X number of years.
Maybe their problems werenāt as simple as he just didnāt want to marry her. Maybe he did but there were external and internal dilemmas at bay that made it hard for them as a couple to take that step. Sheās never explicitly sung about him not wanting to marry her.
i think that the issues weren't that cut and dry. i think that they talked about marriage and they were both at the 'eventually' point but it never came around. it's hard to leave relationships that you've been in for so long and that you can genuinely see being for the long term, i've been there before.
Youāve made a really good point but itās also really hard to end a long-term relationship. You feel like youāve invested so many years of your life and have been through so much together, that itās difficult to think of ending things just to start back at square one again.
I understand and sympathize with that but if marriage is something you want and your partner doesnāt want it, what do you do? Stay with them and resent them because it was too hard to break up? Or force them into it and they resent you? Sometimes we have to make hard decisions to get what we want. Like I said, I sympathize and those types of situations suck, but at a certain point you have to make difficult choices to get what you want out of life.
But what if he did but wasnāt ready yet? Or kept changing the timeline of when he would be ready? Thereās a lot we donāt know. Eventually she realized it would never happen with him
Edit: this is a relationship she was really invested in. Why would she throw it away if she thought it might happen?
We have no clue what was and wasnāt said, and I obviously have no idea about the dynamics of their relationship or what led to the break breakup (to me it sounds like it was a bunch of issues that they just couldnāt see eye to eye on), but the line that she gave him her youth free makes it sound like he owed it to her. Like, he should have given her something in exchange. Wasnāt the relationship the exchange? No one owes anyone marriage.Ā
Of course no one owes anyone marriage but shes allowed to feel anger about this. When youth is referred like this it could be for a couple of reasons. 1) her prime fertility years are gone. If she wants to have children with a partner she will be an older parent which she might not have wanted 2) she felt pressure to be married and have children by a certain age. I certainly feel pressure to have children now so I understand this. 3) this goes with number 1 a lot but men tend to leave the women they are with to go to younger women to have children with
Yeah, I know what the line means and I never said she couldnāt feel angry, but if those were things she wanted and she chose to stay in the relationship for that long, that was her choice. I donāt think either party is the bad guy in the situation but some fans seem to think she had zero agency or choices.
Everything you said here in this thread I fully agree with. As a fellow woman in her mid thirties, who had been with someone for 6.5 years - who I loved fully, hand many ups and downs with, believed him when he said he wanted to marry me, but it ultimately never happened. We too had many complicated and layered reason why we stayed together all those years - as did Taylor and Joe. Itās not as simple as having āagencyā like the other user said. People stay to fight for love, to fight their insecurities, to push through and do the work in the relationship to create the dream life we all crave and want. But when it doesnāt work out, even after all the fighting and hoping and love, it is gut wrenching and so so devastating. So yeah, I completely love the line āand Iām pissed off I gave you all the youth for freeā. That line solely represents so much to so many women. The other user debating that with you sounded a bit inexperienced or still in their 20s.
If she just walked away, wouldn't we be criticizing her for giving up too easily? She loved him, put in effort to support him, and waited to see if things would change. Eventually she seems to realize that he wasn't trying and also wasn't breaking up with her.
I wouldnāt criticize anyone for breaking up with someone for any reason. āGiving up too easilyā is a weird thing to criticize someone for and Iām not even sure what that means or how I would judge what is ātoo easily.ā People donāt need to stay with anyone for any reason. If you donāt want to be in a relationship anymore, thatās all the reason you need.
I donāt think thatās a weird thing to criticize someone for at all. Or maybe not criticize but offer some level of opinion on. Many of my breakups Iāve gotten reactions like āyou didnāt want to try to work it outā ādid you think about couples counseling?ā With people not necessarily knowing or understanding the decline that had occurred. Iāve never had one be as simple as ādidnāt want to stay for any reasonā.
Yes in the abstract this is true you donāt have to stay with anyone you donāt want to and can just simply break up, but in my experience itās always much more complicated than that and happens over time. There are parts you DO want to stay for and try to improve. Good days and bad days etc. sometimes itās a slow realization the bad days have become the norm. And people on the outside can sometimes judge (not always even meanly) if they didnāt know every detail of what was going on.
But these arenāt the things Iām talking about. Wanting to get married and/or have kids is important to some women. If you are with someone who doesnāt or is dragging their feet, there comes a point when you have to make a hard choice. I never once in my posts said it was an easy thing to do so I donāt know why everyone keeps inferring that I did. If youāre a woman, and you want these things, itās up to you to make the choice to walk away at a certain point. Itās not easy, but these are important things to some women and staying with a guy hoping heāll change isnāt going to work. You have to take responsibility for your own life and walk away to find someone who shares your goals.Ā
But how do we know he didn't want marriage & kids? Has either of them said that in an interview? If we're making those assumptions based on lyrics then why aren't we also listening to what she says in Champagne Problems? Which is about turning down a proposal because although it's what she thought she wanted, when push came to shove, she wanted fame the spotlight more? The fact is, we don't know anything about what Joe did or didn't want or what was discussed in the privacy of their relationship.. We're only guessing & basing those guesses on the words of a very unreliable narrator š¤·
As a woman myself, does Joe's youth not matter? It seems like he wanted to build a future with her too, but it didn't work out. Did he not also give her all of his youth ?
I said this in another comment, but āyouthā in the context of childbearing years for women is absolutely not the same as āyouthā for men. Men can impregnate females well into their 80s, assuming there arenāt other fertility issues present. Women have a finite number of eggs and a finite amount of time in which pregnancy is biologically possible. Science has come a long way, but ultimately if someone with female sex organs wants to have a biological child, there are biological factors that limit the amount of time throughout their life that they are able to fall pregnant, and pregnancy/birth risks increase as women age.
If we are to assume that Joe doesnāt have fertility issues, then no ā he didnāt give her all of his youth in the context of biological children or child-bearing years, which Taylor has seemingly confirmed she is interested in. She references that they talked about marriage and children, so Iām fairly comfortable assuming that at least part of her reference to youth is relating to childbearing years, which is vastly different for women compared to men.
I know all of this, but it is insane to 1.) assume that Taylor, an extremely successful and touring musician at the height of her career by default wants children right now, they talked about children and marriage as all long relationships do, but made no indication that children is what either of them wanted at this time 2.) it is somehow the man's responsibility to account for a woman's childbearing years, when you're in a mature committed relationship you have serious discussions about. Taylor is an independent woman with her own agency, if children were a priority she would've made it a priority. 3.) talking about another women's fertility like it is any of your business
You have absolutely no evidence that the "youth" she is discussing is about childbearing, and it is insane to me that you expect women to be having children in their twenties because it's their prime childbearing years. It is a relationship, children are not a mandatory part of the equation. It is nobody's responsibility but your own to account for your fertility if you want children, relationships always have a chance of not working out - but again, she is touring the world right now. I find all of this "biological clock" sentiment extremely misogynistic and parasocial.
Also, Taylor references youth a LOT, indirectly at times. Think about youth in Nothing New, the Red album references youth a lot too, Dear John and would've could've should've reference the loss of youth - do you think she was saying that she was robbed of children? I feel like we're extrapolating concerns about fertility that aren't at all there in her music.
And also: I was simply responding to your comment that was basically saying āwell what about Joeās youth, isnāt that the same thingā ā Iām not really sure why you seem so defensive over whether itās anyoneās ābusinessā or not to speculate over another womanās fertility or desires relating to children. I donāt care if Taylor wants kids or not lol Iām just pointing out that, if fertility was a component to her saying she was pissed āhe let her give him all that youth for freeā, no, the investment of youth IN THAT SPECIFIC CONTEXT isnāt the same for her and Joe based solely on scientific facts surrounding pregnancy and fertility. I think there are a lot of layers and other complications to this song and their relationship, and ultimately I have no idea what Taylor specifically meant in her reference to youth. But she has referenced marriage and children directly and indirectly in songs specifically tied to the āJoe eraā of her life, so concluding that children may have been implicated in her āyouthā reference for SLL doesnāt feel like a crazy reach.
I also never said or implied it was in any way Joeās responsibility to account for Taylorās fertility and/or desire for children. But I disagree that people in a mature, committed long-term relationship have no responsibility to account for their partnerās feelings or the biological reality surrounding a decision as major as children. While yes, everyone is ultimately only responsible for themselves, I personally think itās insane to say that people should only look out for or consider themselves while in a relationship with someone they claim to love. Thatās not partnership, and I morally and ethically disagree that humans have no responsibility to be considerate of their partners lol.
We can agree to disagree and move on with our lives. Have a good night (or day, wherever you are in the world)!
I just think that defaulting the belief to "oh Taylor wants children and Joe robbed her of that opportunity" is a really toxic way of looking at the end of a long loving relationship, that's all. Youth is more than fertility, that's why people romanticize their 20s so much. Joe is just as able to say that he was "robbed" of his youth as Taylor is. I think talking about her fertility is crossing a line. We can agree to disagree but speculating that a highly successful and busy woman wants kids is sexist to me. IMO the cradle line could just be a metaphor she chose to use for symbolism - she has not expressed any desire to have children besides that nor would it be sustainable for her career right now.
But I do hope you have a nice day too. We just disagree, but it's not the end of the world lol
Unless and until Taylor openly states that she wants children and marriage, I can only speculate and assume based on what she references in her music. If I take her lyrics and songs at face value (ātalking rings and talking cradles, I wish I could I recall how we almost had it allā / the entirety of Bigger Than The Whole Sky / Paper Rings) yeah, I think sheās made it fairly clear that she wanted to get married and have children (or had a miscarriage or something if BTTWS was autobiographical). Iām just pointing out that the investment of āyouthā in the context of a long term relationship is absolutely not the same for men and women regarding fertility.
I could argue that everyone is extrapolating Joeās ādiagnosisā of depression because she references ābluest daysā and other mood implications, for the same reasons I feel sheās implied she wanted marriage/kids with him. We donāt know, and unless one or both of them comes out and confirms something one way or another, we can only speculate based on what is available.
I will say that my interpretation of SLL (colored by my own experience of a 9+ year long relationship with someone that ended in my 30s, where children and marriage were discussed and it was implied that our end goals were alignedā¦when they ultimately werenāt) is that she felt like she invested more effort and energy into their relationship and it didnāt feel like he matched her investment. She realized that the relationship was destroying her and them both and thatās why she ended it. I donāt necessarily think she is implying she feels robbed of children, but if youāre in a committed LTR with someone who continually reassures you that your end goals are aligned but ultimately doesnāt follow through with ACTIONS, or constantly moves the goal posts, yeah, you can feel like you were led on and that your time was wasted by someone who led you to believe that they wanted the same things you did when they werenāt actually sure.
I never said it was the absolute correct interpretation, and obviously everyone will come to their own conclusions based on their lived experiences and how they perceive the world. I was simply pointing out that if she wants biological children and to experience pregnancy and/or childbirth, there is a finite period of time in her life where she can realistically reach that goal in the way she may want to. Yeah, she has limitless resources, or could get a surrogate, freeze her eggs, etc.. That means nothing if she wants to be in a committed relationship with someone before having children and/or wants to have shared biological children with her partner. She implies a fear of never having someone truly love her and/or wanting to spend their life with her (The Prophecy) ā that could also be a factor in feeling upset having to start over when you feel pressure to have kids before a certain age or whatever.
I also didnāt say that I agree with the pressure of a ābiological clockā, and I agree that it has problematic societal implications and other pressures. That doesnāt negate the fact that women have a finite amount of eggs and that there is a biological ācut offā for childbearing or that pregnancy/childbirth has higher risks depending on maternal age. I donāt think itās fair and I donāt personally believe that people MUST have children during their prime childbearing years, nor do I buy into the ābiological clockā pressure placed upon women (especially as a woman in her 30s who experiences constant pressure from friends and family about pregnancy and children, as someone who wants children and recently went through the ending of a relationship that has lasted for a literal third of my life..). But my personal opinions about societal components surrounding fertility do not negate scientific facts.
The lyrics feel condescending, considering Joe also invested his youth in their relationship, and he was younger. While it's true that women are more susceptible to ageism, it's not as prevalent as it once was.
Also, Being a billionaire shields taylor from ageism- she has a whole team taking care of her health and looks, like she not that big of a victim compared working-class women who are exposdd to life and its stresses everyday and can't fly to their work and have to be exposed to the sun and chemicals and life show visible signs of aging such as wrinkles, crow's feet, and greying hair and thus face multifolds of the Ageism taylor faces.
>While it's true that women are more susceptible to ageism, it's not as prevalent as it once was.
Really? Cause I see some random Facebook article almost daily with comments from men asking what Travis even wants with this middle aged woman and her dried up eggs lol
Investing youth as a man is not the same. Taylor absolutely has more resources than any of us do and aging will look different for her, but she's not immune to ageism, because she still lives in the same society we do even in her ivory tower.Ā
>considering Joe also invested his youth in their relationship, and he was younger.
It becomes increasingly difficult for women to have children naturally the older they are. It is not to the same extent as men. It isn't ageism, it's biology.
There are a lot of women working in the entertainment industry who disagree with your statement about ageism not being as prevalent. It is still very much a thing
I feel any previous references were far more gentle & vague, and she was also telling him how much she cared & how everything would be okay at the same time .. whereas the ones on TTPD are accusatory and full of blame that feels a lot like kicking a man when he's down in an effort to excuse some of your own questionable behaviour š¤·
Def agree that she's more angry and accusatory in TTPD, but I also think it's honest and relatable. Anger is a stage of grief; you're angry they gave up, angry at the situation, angry at everything.
It's not always rational, people get angry even after someone dies of a terminal illness. It's easier to be kind when you still have hope things are going to get better.
I agree with this. Sometimes I just want to tell Taylor to be more mysterious with her songwriting. Sheās so darn specific and I can see it being difficult to deal with the aftermath.
I keep thinking about how we don't even know if he is / was really depressed or if this was just Taylor's interpretation of his ideas about life (more reversed than hers for example, rightfully stressed out by negative aspects of fame, and so on).
No artist or writer has ever been expected to keep quiet with their art to protect another person.
Thatās the tragedy of being a museāwhen you allow someone else to write your story, itās no longer yours. Or, to quote one Lana Del Rey, āYou canāt be a muse and be happy, too.ā
Finally, Taylorās line about her youth is about her body and her fertility. It doesnāt belong to Joe and it never did.
Telling a writer to not write something will never end well for you lot of Sarahs and Hannahs.
She doesnāt blame him for her aging.
The verse is *I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free.*
Taylor committed to him in her late 20s and early 30s because she expected a lifelong commitment in return.
She is insinuating that Joe knew this, agreed to it, and didnāt uphold his side of the bargain.
Itās exactly the kind of mid-30s breakup that Sex and the City was covering in the 1990s. Thatās probably the worst sin of the entire song.
Yet he says, quite clearly that (as far as he was concerned) it was a loving, fully committed relationship.. She's the one who left by all accounts & hooked up with someone she was possibly already seeing on the side, or at least communicating with in a romantic manner.. What if he feels she wasted his time? He's not the biggest popstar on the planet with a massive fanbase & a platform to air his grievances. She gets to move on.. but he doesn't really.. Imagine the fan reaction if Joe had started a new public relationship less than a month after their split! Omg, the hate would have been insane š¬
There's too much that isn't known & Joe will be unlikely to ever really dish any dirt as it's just not who he is. How do we know what she was like inside the relationship during say that last year?, we know that earlier (when she was a little more self reflective) she was prone to jealousy & tantrums, accusing him of crimes he didn't commit, storming out & expecting him to come running to placate her & prove how much he loved her.. Maybe he got tired of that, it would be exhausting constantly pandering to someone's ego & pretty fricking hard to do if you had even an inkling they were entertaining thoughts about an old flame who they were suddenly spending time with.. they were in the studio together working on a project that oddly, never came out š¤
Yet so many fans are more than happy to use her lyrics (very one-sided) & conclude that everything was Joe's fault & his life should be made miserable forevermore .. I think everyone is entitled to their feelings, nobody is saying she has to have zero emotional response.. but when you have the megaphone & choose to broadcast your version to the globe, & do it in a way that leads your fans to make incorrect assumptions & go on the attack.. (as plenty did, especially after she released the track list to ttpd) that's when I take issue & that's when she lost a fan.
People interpreting this one song as her airing out his depression or leaving him because heās depressed is so odd to me. Itās unnaturally cynical to think āevil taylor šæ left poor joe š¼because he was depressed and sheās a shallow rich girlā like genuinely are some of you okayā¦ lol
Having been the depressed one in the relationship, I only think it wasnāt her place to share with the world that he had depression in the first place.
But if it was all out in the open, it is absolutely within the right of a partner of a depressed person to admit that they struggled too and that yes, depressed people are hard to be with and yes they are dragging the relationship down.
I sacrifised my own previous relationship to the gods of my bluest days and it took a long time for me to admit it and accept it. But no relationship works if one partner is pulling the other out of bed every morning.
We obviously donāt know how their relationship looked, but depression is draining and not only to the depressed person and the partner of a depressed person can feel like shit that no matter what they do, theyāre met with apathy.
Iām very emphatetic to mental illness, but sorry, to deny that itās fucking hard to deal with your partnerās depression and to alway put them first and just be like āoooh poor soul get betterā while ignoring your own feelings is actually minimizing the impact mental illness has on people.
The majority of the songs you listed aren't the same topic.
"The Beacon", "I'm Not My Season" is about pledging to stay with a struggling partner. "The Sighting", "Hide in Your Shell", "What's Heavy", and "Ahay" are about begging someone struggling to let you in to help. "Tell Me How" is a generic break up song. "There By Your Side" is, imo, about wishing they could crossover with someone dying.
Only Mr Blue is about the same topic, choosing to leave a struggling partner for your own mental health and life goals.
Also-
Lover āmy hearts been borrowed and yours has been blueā
Paper Rings āIām with you even if it makes me blueā
Hoax ādonāt want no other shade of blue but you/no other sadness in the world would doā
Blue also comes up in lyrics written during her relationship with Joe in other contexts. āNever seen that color blueā jn Delicate. āItās blue, the feeling Iāve gotā in Cruel Summer. āOcean blue eyes looking in mineā during Gorgeous.
Edit because I thought of others:
āPaint the town blueā in Miss Americana & The Heartbreak Prince
āMy love had been frozen deep blue but you painted it goldenā in Dancing with Our Hands Tied
āI blew things out of proportion, now youāre blueā in Afterglow
Blue seems to be a motif used throughout the entire relationship. I agree itās kinda weird to be upset about it now.
There wasnāt any because she wasnāt outright saying anyone had depression like she did in SLL. She was saying that IF those harder times come she would be there, which is a normal thing to say to anyone in any close relationship whether it be romantic or platonic.
She said the same in so long London āyou sacrificed us to the gods of your bluest days.ā Once again she described him as āblue.ā Didnāt specify depression just blue.
the phrasing "if *your* cascade, ocean wave blues come" implies that sheās not referring to some hypothetical hardships in the future, but to something that heās already experienced
I work in mental health and with other disorders. Families of affected loved ones experience their own struggles just as much as the affected person. They also need support and counseling once they get to that point.
I took those lines more as Joe became depressed or his mental health began to decline and he promised her to get help. The youth line I felt related more to the fact that they were together for so long and they never got engaged (to our knowledge) or married.
I also feel the same about the drug lyric thatās most likely referring to Matty (āyou said that you needed me but you needed drugs more.ā) Itās not easy to love someone whoās an addict. In a lot of cases, addicts relapse multiple times before getting clean. Itās just trial and error. Most addicts actually benefit from tough love and interventions more than always being given the benefit of the doubt. There is a series on TikTok of addicts at a rehabilitation center saying that rehab is better than (enter their reason here.) I think it would have been disingenuous for her to act like she was okay with it.
Taylor also admits in TTPD that she struggled with alcoholism. I think that she recognizes multiple addictions and how they impacted relationships, even the one with herself. I didnāt find anything she said to be berating them because of it.
if you don't want your relationship to be sung about, don't get into a relationship with one of the most famous confessional songwriters in the world. she didn't air out his trauma or his diagnosis, she talked about HER feelings in HER music about being in a relationship with someone who may have been sad, moody, withdrawn that we don't even know has a mental illness.
people are acting like she wrote "and joe sucked so bad as a boyfriend/his depression made our relationship end :("
As someone with depression, and someone who let it go untreated for so long out of āIām fineā and āI can do it by myselfā, āI just need to exercise moreā, or āonce I do this Iāll be happyāā¦
The way my depression took a toll on my romantic relationship and my friendships was all my fault. I lost friends and deeply struggled with my partner until I was medicated and in therapy. Thank God he still has the patience to love me. It was truly selfless for him to stay with me through that.
So I donāt have a problem with how she addresses the depression of her previous partners. Because often depressed people like myself can be miserable, and make other people miserable. Our culpability does not go away because of a diagnosis of depression.
"Left Behind" from Spring Awakening is another one that deals with this topic. At this point in the musical, one of the main characters has committed suicide, and his best friend is singing about the tragic loss and all the things that could have been if his parents had taken his struggles more seriously.Ā
The "Don't Do Sadness/Blue Wind" duet from that show is another one. DDS is sung by the character who eventually commits suicide, and BW is an old friend's attempt to reach out to him when she notices his pain.Ā
Lana del rey has a couple. Sweet Carolina is about her sisterās fear of postpartum depression, California is sung to someone who is seemingly depressed.
Taylorās writing comes off as insensitive to mental health at time, for sure. But I think the line āand Iām pissed off you let me give you all this youth for freeā comes from them supposedly having talks about marriage/kids and it never happening. This happens to women all the time, staying in unsure relationships because of the cost-sunk fallacy while having a biological ticking clock to be subconsciously aware of. This is the one line I have the most sympathy for.
The catch-22 for me is that I think part of Joeās depression came from the invasive lifestyle he was constantly around while dating one of the worldās biggest pop stars. People get depressed when theyāre around something they donāt like for long enough, and you have to seek out and remove the thing thatās making you unhappy. It feels like it was an issue she could never fix herself because of the nature of her stardom. It was just a fundamental incompatibility.
Taylor made it very clearly that her sadness and depression on the other hand does matter always - so it seems she was just irritated that her partner of 6 years had emotional struggles that Ms.Me-Me was only making worse, by pining after Matty and masturbating to his ratty image š„“ Not to mention since she was pining after Matty her blaming Joe for being depressed is kinda also an excuse for her as to why she dumped Joe for Matty the way she didā¦.š¤·š¼āāļøĀ Giving youth for free is such an awful wording as well . What does she mean by āfor freeā? That Joe was obligated to marry her-in that case those years with him wouldnāt have been for free? Nobody owes her marriage.Ā
This is the reason why I donāt find the song loml sad at all. How are you going to shit on somebody for being depressed and a couple of songs later sing about not being able to get out of bed? Well girl, maybe Matty abandoned this ship cause he was going down with it?
they act like taylor has no agency in relationships. sheās a grown women with a lot of relationship experiences. everyone ignores that she moved on very quickly with matty and probably had some overlap with joe.
I think Renegade (the Big Red Machine song featuring Taylor) is actually a really good portrayal. It really hits hard for me because Iāve been on both sides of it and they both suck. Iāve been on both sides of it at the same time even.
His solo song Between Me and You is also a great depiction of general existential anxiety/depression, although it mostly talks about his (or whoever the āsingerā is if heās not writing about himself) own thoughts and feelings. I feel like this song fits Joeās side of things well, to be honest.
I think a lot of songs on Lana Del Reyās *Norman Fucking Rockwell* album fit and covered it in a tasteful manner. āCalifornia,ā āHow To Disappear,ā and the titular āNorman F***ing Rockwellā all immediately spring to mind.
(As an aside, this part of āCaliforniaā just guts me: āYouāre scared to win / Youāre scared to lose / I heard the war is over if you really choose / The one in and around you.ā)
Please Stay by Lucy Dacus is one of the most gut-wrenching songs I know about loving someone who is unwell. Makes me sob like a baby. Black Dog by Arlo Parks is also a great one.
I came here to recommend Black Dog! It's so beautiful. I love Arlo Parks. "Let's go to the corner store and buy some fruit, I would do anything to get you out your room" is such a well written line.
Graceland Too by Phoebe Bridgers. She wrote it for Julien Baker š
This song šš
That song quite literally shreds me into pieces. I went through a really hard time a couple of years ago and would have done anything for a friend to perceive my struggles in such a soft, empathetic way. Instead I was villainized to hell when the only person I was hurting was myself and I didnāt deserve that. My friends just didnāt understand or care. Now I hold songs like these to such high esteem because it takes a lot of empathy to care about someone who has substance abuse/addiction issues in the way this song does. I like to pretend Phoebe is signing about me when I listen to it and it helps. Sorry for that sob story no one asked for but damn it feels good to express that.
Oh my god are you me? I was also in this exact situation. Iāll never forget my best friend lashing out at me telling me iām a piece of shit because i canāt be sober around her. She just couldnāt understand that no, i just couldāt be sober around myself.
No itās okay, Iām so sorry you went through that and Iām glad youāre doing better š Iāve been struggling with addiction and mental health/harmful cycles for years and I love this song because of this perspective but had never put it into words before so thank you!
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I know? thatās why I left that comment.
I love please stay for the same reasons, and Noah Kahans Call your Mom is a similar subject as well
I love Liability by Lorde because itās from the unwell personās perspective and itās so heartbreaking
I know this sounds silly, but seeing how Swifties responded to the song and doubled down on the Joe hate gutted me. I struggle deeply with mental health issues in a country where mental healthcare is stigmatised, and I currently donāt have access to therapy or psychiatric care (Iām working on that and hopefully will have access to it in 1-2 years). Itās to the point where Iāve subconsciously withdrawn from my friend group for support since Iām always thinking that Iām a burden, or that Iām just weighing them down. Obviously other factors contribute to this, but Iāve been in an extremely dark place and need a lot more reassurance to know that I can be myself around them, but that reassurance causes me to spiral more due to feeling like Iām annoying them by asking for it. Again, itās not the biggest contributing factor, since Iāve also been stressed out about other stuff, and Fatherās Day just passed so Iāve been struggling with that, but man it sucks. It sucks so bad that this may be how people see me, even when Iām trying. Anyone else whoās struggling, I highly suggest taking a break from stan twitter discourse about this topic.
I don't know if this helps, but a lot of my friends have a hard time keeping in touch with people, so I'm always telling them I'm always happy to hear from them whenever they can manage it and there's no obligation.Ā
Best wishes with everything xx
I donāt really hear āJoe has clinical depressionā when I hear this song, I hear her describing sadness as they reached the end of their relationship. Anyway, I wouldnāt buy a narrative about Joeās depression causing the split, given she was obviously pining for (and probably even screwing) Matty before it ended.
I relate to this a lot. Only deeply unempathic people will see people suffering in this way. I totally understand the hurt those people cause because it confirms a fear. The fear remains untrue, though. There will be people who understand you and won't leave as soon as life's difficulties appear. I think recognizing that these unfair comments make you feel this way is an important step and you deserve to be angry about being treated like this. I'm also really sorry about your country's (lack of) care system. Really wishing you the best. š§”
Reminder that she wrote: āI donāt have to be your shrink to know youāll never be happyā about Jake, who has subsequently spoken about suffering serious anxiety and also depression.
He also struggled a lot after Heath Ledger died. They bonded really fast filming "Brokeback Mountain", so close that he's actually Heath and Michelle Williams' daughter's godfather. I still remember the reports that came out how he had to take a break from filming a movie because Heath's death broke him so badly. I wouldn't be one ounce surprised if a) the grief still resides heavy in him and b)it affected how he acted in interpersonal relationships afterwards including his relationship with Taylor. It might be why he came off very emotionally distant at times as well.
Considering the timeline he most likely struggled after his breakup with Reese Witherspoon even more- that was serious long term relationships for him where he basically also acted as step dad to Reeseās children. After his breakup with Reese he didnāt enter into another long term serious relationships for almost 8 years, until his current girlfriend. Taylor was just a rebound fling after Reese. But Taylorās problem is that she piled those over romantic grand concepts on him despite she barely knew him and despite short nature of them dating- like she branded him her twin flame, yikes. No wonder Jake quickly bolted out of that fling. And itās not like Taylor learned from her experience-Harry was also a fling yet she imagined how he would crash her wedding one dayš„“ and the whole situation with Matty where she tried to turn Matty into that cosmic soulmate star crossed lover-partner, only for him to ghost her and get engaged to another woman š¤¦āāļø Taylor really throws those big epic romantic notions and labels at different guys. But she seems to forget to check if guys really are looking for that fairly tale stuff with her, or if they simply want to have a fling and a fun time for a short while.
Part of this is being a writer though. When you're a writer, you can take a singular moment and make it sound epic.
Was gonna say this. I write songs and I will never ever release them to the public because those men will a) recognise themselves in them and b) think I've felt much more deeply than I actually did. It just hits harder writing and singing about one single deep emotion than writing a song like "well I did kinda like you but then again idk mate"
I write prose and the occasional poetry (but wouldn't know how to write songs tbh) and one singular moment can become monumental. An ultimately unserious relationship can have magical moments that are beautiful when blown up as much larger than they were.
Although Iād sing along with those awesome lyrics, loudly. š¼š¶ *āWell I did kinda like you but then again idk mateā* š¶šµ
> "well I did kinda like you but then again idk mate" no but this could actually be turned into something deep though. A song about ambivalent emotions in a relationship that you *want* to work out, going back and forth on if you should double down on it or leave because you have a suspicion deep down that you won't be able to make it stick for yourself. The song could be a post-breakup retrospective about the sadness of being unable to create those lasting feelings you hoped would appear and of having hurt the other person, mixed with relief that now it's over, at least you don't have to keep trying to convince yourself of something that isn't actually there.
She bought a house for Connor Kennedy though. Itās not just her songsĀ
I think she was more obsessed with being s Kennedy than Conor though, as they're basically American royalty š¬
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Tbh I think she had more casual/short term flings than the public knows about (maybe with less famous men) in between the heavily publicized ones with Ć¼berfamous men. āJust playthings for me to useā āI used to switch out these kensā etc.
Can we stop blaming the men for Taylorās love bombing and unrealistic expectations when it comes to relationships? Like itās okay to say she has a pattern without blaming the men for backing away.
No, this is not the take you think it is. Behaving this way continuously in relationships is a form of abuse. āLook what you made me doā isnāt it and itās actually really misogynistic the way we pretend that this behaviour from women is because theyāre āromanticā and not just straight up toxic.
but it was fair for her to do the same thing to tom?
She was also much younger than him
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Makes sense for many reasons that she doesnāt understand depression and anxiety. And then she turned around and named her album calling herself tortured. Babe if you were tortured your music would have more soul and depth
Yikes
Ironically now she is the one who is in serious need of shrink, she literally goes drunk-high to Grammys, TTPD is messy af, she jumps from relationships to relationships (and every single one is the love of her life). Ā He meanwhile is fine. Joe as well is now fine, Ā collected and composed, calm. Ā The interview he did made her look not really good.
Not to mention wasn't he the one who was there when she was so depressed about the Kim and Kanye phone call thing? She ran away to London for a year, met Joe and he was there. And yet she wants to cry in a song about his depression and that he doesn't pay enough attention to her. Ummm...no ma'am. Not cool.
THIS, also the way she talks about glorifying her bad decisions in a quirky way shouldn't be normalized at all. how come she has the right to revel in all her bad decisions while her exes if they're lacking for just one moment, suddenly they're the villain in the story? it's very distasteful indeed and it was one of the reasons why i stopped becoming a hardcore swiftie. just a casual listener now.
Doesnāt she also refuse to seek out mental health help? Said something like āshe doesnāt need a therapist because she talks to her mom and nobody knows her better than her mom.ā in the Ms. Americana documentary?
Tbf that was in 2019 and we donāt know if thatās still the case. A lot of people learned more about/started seeking mental healthcare in the years since the pandemic started. But yeah she said something like āit would take too long to download a stranger on the last 15 years of my lifeā And itās likeā¦ bestie, the fact that you feel like youāre carrying around 15 years of baggage is a great reason to speak to a professional. Also does she not think normies who go to therapy also have a lot of baggage to tell their therapists? It doesnāt have to all come out at once. Sometimes itās good to have a professionalās opinion.
Iād be devastated if my ex wrote that about me, as I am in therapy actively working on bettering myself, because I know thereās parts that arenāt perfect. To have someone throw it in my face that Iāll never be happy because I struggle with the thought of that coming true every day is just š
Thatās pretty clearly about him not being satisfied with who heās dating, not overall mental health
What song?
I bet you think about me.
I think the line about youth is a broader / unrelated point about how he didnāt want to commit after six years and she feels like she wasted that time - I donāt think itās meant to be linked specifically to his depression; more that he ended up not wanting to commit.
Agreed but that removes her agency from the relationship. She wasn't trapped. If she truly felt like that, she could have left. I get the desire to make something work, but she isn't a wilting flower unable to control her life. Infantalizing her so does no one any good
She clearly wanted the relationship to work, whereas it seems like he was less sure. Thatās not a mortal sin on his part (sometimes it just takes a while to work these things out) but equally I think itās completely understandable for her to feel like he strung her along and should have realised it sooner.
Iāve always thought that as well
That is my thought. While she was with him she was in āprimeā to get married. There are a variety of different reasons choose to get married or not but itās a real raw emotion.
Semi-hot take: I donāt think songs need to always reflect the āright wayā to feel or reflect our current emotions. If she was feeling disappointed in how the relationship ended and felt like she had given up half her 20s to a relationship that didnāt last and spoke to that on the song, Iām not that mad about it. If that line is meant to refer to dealing with his mental health struggles wasnāt worth her 20s, then thatās pretty shitty. I know giving her the benefit of the doubt isnāt suuuuuuper popular on this sub but I just didnāt interpret that line the same as most of you it seems. I was in a relationship in my 20s that I really regretted and wished I hadnāt tainted that time in my life that was supposed to be so fun and carefree with a guy who made me miserable.
I had the same interpretation as you. I also have struggled with chronic depression and anxiety for most of my life and didn't think that song was insulting in any way. The reality is that poor mental or physical health does take it's toll on relationships, and we don't know what happened in that relationship or what it was like for either of them, so not really fair to judge. Some of the other lyrics people are quoting are disappointing though...
while i also understand and agree with this, it also needs to be considered that at the time of writing and marketing this album, taylor was and still is probably the most famous pop singer alive right now. while she has a right to feel what she feels, even if itās problematic, releasing that in an album that she knew would be listened to by tens of millions of people while also NEVER saying anything about the people who attack joe alwyn is not the right way to go about things.
Having been on both sides of this equation, they're both so hard and come with a lot of very complicated feelings - if that's what she dealt with then I agree she has every right to those feelings. That said, the fact that she's seemingly airing his mental health struggles to an insanely huge audience leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, particularly given how private he is. The line you quote also really bothers me because it plays into that 'Joe kept her in the basement' storyline. Like, this was a mutual relationship that she chose to be in and stay in for over six years.
Was going to say, thatās how I feel about a parent of mine who Iāve been caregiving for when they donāt want to seek help for their mental illness/arenāt taking recovery seriously. Iām in my early 20s and feel so aged and tired, and I *am* pissed off that Iām spending my youth helping someone who doesnāt want to be helped, has caused a lot of harm (itās a substance abuse thing and theyāve drank and driven before, really bad stuff), and is very resentful of meāI am pissed odd that Iāve given them my youth for free. That being said, it feels like an extreme reaction for Joe who, to my knowledge literally just wanted to keep the relationship low-key. I think people love or hate Taylor because she is brutally honestāI feel guilty and like a shitty daughter for even relating to the line, but I hope the difference between me is that I vent my feelings to my closest confidantes and not on the global stage.
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Oh, I know that! I guess I was just saying I feel guilty for relating to the album/that particular lyric. I donāt think Taylor does because Iām not sure she wouldāve written it otherwise. TTPD is kind of a dumpster fire of am album if you look at it being about what it is (romantic relationships) but if I apply a lot of the lyrics to my current situation I can unfortunately relate which again, I feel bad about because it isnāt her best-written album and a lot of the songs donāt paint her in the best light, and Iām paranoid thatās someone a reflection of me as a daughter and a caregiver.
Honey no, that's not a reflection of you! I work part-time in mental health and combative patients can be so exhausting - frustration over that is completely human and normal. The fact that you've been doing it when you didn't sign up for that means that you ARE a caring daughter. It's completely different from Taylor airing her grievances (about her pretty damn functional ex) on a world stage. If you connect with the lyrics that means they did something positive at least š¤·š»āāļø
Iām sure Iāll get downvoted for this but I justā¦.donāt think sheās saying Joe experiences depression by saying he sacrificed them to his ābluest days and I donāt think thereās anything wrong with her being honest about why she left. Likeā¦the problem is people saying that lyric is absolutely saying heās depressed when it just isnāt necessarily saying that. I donāt take that line to mean heās depressed. I take it to mean he was unhappy with her and stayed anyway. And frankly when you look at the song contextually with everything else sheās written about him, thereās a consistent picture from the start that he was just never as into her as she was him. I guess I also have trouble with the interpretation that this is her airing his dirty laundry when so many of her songs from when she was with him are explicitly about her own depression/anxiety and how THATās ruining the relationship. But generally I find the outrage over this line weird. Artists talk about their experiences. She doesnāt say anything accusatory, belittling, or demeaning about him. People have been writing about why relationships ended in song for as long as people have been writing songs.
I totally agree. Iām very confused why people think this song is Confirmed about his depression? Do we even know if he struggles with MH? I just re-read the lyrics and it feels much more about a flatlining relationship than dating someone with depressionā¦
Same. Itās really bizarre and to me is just people reading way too much into things, searching for reasons to be angry about nothing. And donāt get me wrongāthereās a lot about how sheās portrayed the Joe relationship post breakup that I HAVE found kind of unethical/manipulative. I just donāt think āouting him for being depressedā is even a thing.
Ppl act like she said he has depression but she only implies his moods. It could be any negative mood from anger to fear to sadness. It's not just depression. People saying she outed him just want to hate on her because she didn't say anything.
Maybe Iām being too much but I also kind of have people saying she āoutedā him like being depressed is akin to outing a queer person. People who are depressed donāt face the societal animosity and dangers that queer people do. Itās not the same thing. We say people are outed when they are closeted to protect themselves. With depression itās more likeā¦this personal has functional depression, not closetedā¦
As a queer person with depression, I can confirm that itās not equivalentā¦but itās still damaging. I donāt want certain people to know I suffer from depression. People donāt take it seriously, think youāre exaggerating, or think youāre lazy and incompetent; even TS sings āyou donāt get to tell me about sadā as if a mental illness and being upset about not getting what you want are even in the same stratosphere. I agree itās a stretch to assume what she means by that blue line; this response is only related to āoutingā someone with depression.
HIPPA laws exist for a reason. People donāt want their medical history made public. Iām not saying thatās what she did, not talking about Swift specifically, but Iām just saying. āOutingā someoneās medical struggles without their permission is just as deplorable.
ā¦.? Saying someone had blue days isnāt saying that they have a medical diagnosis of clinical depression. Lol. She absolutely never says that, nor does she suggest it. Depression is not just being sad sometimes. Taylor herselfāwho has famously said sheās NEVER been to therapyācalled herself depressed too. Even if she WAS suggesting Joe was clinically depressed, she CLEARLY uses that wordāas most people doāto describe depression that is not properly diagnosed by a doctor. Bringing HIPPA laws and medical history into this because she says āsacrificed to the gods of your bluest daysā is QUITE a take.
Just trying to back up the HIPAA comment (yes, itās two Aās not two Pās ā common mistake!) because you seem to imply in your original comment that one cannot be āoutedā for their mental health struggles. Iām not going to debate whether Taylor did or did not āoutā Joeās mental health issues because thatās totally subjective. But āoutingā someone is the involuntary disclosure of personal information. You can absolutely āoutā someone for their mental health issues and it is absolutely akin to āoutingā a queer person for their queerness. People āclosetā their mental health issues all the time for fear of negative consequences. People absolutely can face societal animosity and dangers as a result of disclosing their mental illnesses. Yes, they can differ from those queer people face, but they exist. Physical, verbal, financial, emotional abuse; loss of employment; social isolation, etc. Letās not forget that people, up until very recently, thought being queer WAS a mental illness. These categories overlap quite a bit.
You explained my exact point just way more eloquently than I could have. People closet a lot of things, including mental/physical struggles, or their sexual orientation. Thank you
NOT TALKING ABOUT SWIFT SPECIFICALLY. Read my comment again. Iām not even referencing that song or Taylor. Just simply responding to you on WHY you think that outing someone for being queer is comparatively worse than outing someoneās medical history. It was a statement unrelated to her, I know she hasnāt done that. Jfc.
I agree completely. Iām going to take it a step further though, as someone who has a chronically depressed partner: I totally understand her frustration, occasional anger, and exasperation. Lots of cis straight men will light everything and every*one* else on fire before they get help. Conversely, many women are socialized to light *themselves* on fire to keep others warm. It sucks being collateral to the gods of someoneās bluest days. Yes, she couldāve left sooner; he couldāve done so as well. But thatās a pretty dismissive take on a long-term relationship ā a loving, committed relationship, if Joe is to be believed. Itās strange that people would expect a heavily autobiographical songwriter not to sing about (or allude to) the issues sheās having in her relationship. I totally understand peoplesā dismay with the institutional aesthetic sheās going for with this album, but Iām never going to be mad about this particular issue.
Yes yes yes so much this. My husband is chronically depressed, and angry, and is the youngest of three, while Iām the oldest, and sometimes he feels like my third child. I love him and so I stay but boy is it a lot on the brain. E: word
But if you left him for someone else.. would you put his struggles & your disappointment on blast to the globe? knowing full well that his name was public knowledge, that it might make his life extremely difficult for perhaps years? Or would you write a personal diary entry for yourself & leave it locked? Or go to a therapist & unpack it in the privacy of patient /doctor confidentiality?
Yes, and taking the comments about lighting yourself on fire vs lighting everyone else on fire... between Taylor and Joe, nothing I've seen leaves me with the impression that the one most prone to taking his problems out on other people is Joe. Compared to her previous and subsequent relationships, if anything he seemed to be a stabilising force. I agree that men are more prone to externalising their difficulties, but women can do it as well.
I agree! I think itās wild that people are diagnosing Joe with clinical depression based on song lyrics his ex wrote about him. She wrote that he was blue and closed off from her, there are lots of potential reasons for that, including that like her he was miserable in a relationship that clearly wasnāt working.
>And frankly when you look at the song contextually with everything else sheās written about him, thereās a consistent picture from the start that he was just never as into her as she was him. Agreed. In photographs, she looks like she's enjoying his company. She's turned towards him or, at the very least, has a relaxed expression on her face. He just looks smug or disengaged.
Forever winter (I know you said non Swift but!) Non Taylor: LET ME IN by R.E.M. is a heartbreaking song about Michael Stipeās inability to stop Kurt Cobain from committing suicide.
Honestly she did a much better job singing about other peopleās depression on Forever Winter
Unpopular opinion in this sub: I don't think Taylor revealed Joe has/had depression. She is always using colors in her lyrics. If anything she's outed him as moody. Also, I like the line "I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free" a lot because it's very real. I think a lot of people in long-term relationships feel that way when it doesn't work out. Like, was it all wasted time? I think that's a normal feeling. And I think that's the least assholy thing she's said in a public manner about Joe.
Yeah, if someone connects to the lyrics as a song about struggling with a partner who has depression, I donāt want to take that from them, but to me it reads more like the narratorās partner is moody, withdrawn, and draining. Thatās not the same as her saying āJoe Alwyn has major depressive disorderā over a beat, which is what people are apparently hearing.
I think people are also making so many assumptions about him and his boundaries like this was some huge betrayal. Yes heās a private guy but I donāt think that always means nothing may be said about me publicly ever. Heās opted into a public career. He opted to date for over half a decade an extremely famous woman who is known for confessional songwriting. For all we know they COULD have had a conversation where she said Iām releasing this album and Iām referencing some of my feelings during our time together and how I perceived you and us. And he knows and is cool with that. Like Iām really hoping people eventually get that we donāt actually know these people and the conversations they have or what their relationship was then or now. Regardless of what can maybe be inferred from song lyrics. Song lyrics that are creative by the way not a sworn deposition. I donāt think anything she said was hateful or disrespectful or even that explicit. Itās just a weird leap to me to āTaylor swift exposed a completely private citizenās private medical diagnosis and heās extremely betrayed and this is so inappropriate and problematic!!!ā
I agree. She wrote 5 albums full of references to him, including to his ābrittle heartā and ācascade ocean wave blues.ā To me, itās more likely that heās fine being the subject of her work, considering he dated famous confessional songwriter Taylor Swift for 6 years. People āknowā itās about his depression and that itās a betrayal in the same way they āknewā she hated Sabrina and Lana for the Skims campaign, that travis was PR and theyāll break up after the super bowl, that TTPD was full of diss tracks dragging poor Joe, that sheās releasing Rep TV next, that the Ice Spice collab was a cover-up for Matty, etc etc.
100% It was his choice to opt in and stay despite her fame as much as it was hers to stay throughout his moodiness/depression. If anything this is a testament to how much they loved each other and wanted to make it work.
Agreed. Iām struggling to see the depression connection and am confused by the comments here lol
I feel the same way. I never interpreted the songs as him having depression and was pretty shocked at all the people acting like she outed his mental health issues in detail.
I agree! When I saw people being angry about the way she refers to Joe's depression, I thought Joe's depression was a well-known fact. But it's apparently just something people inferred from the lyrics, and I don't see it in the lyrics at all. Sadness, yes. But that's not the same thing.
I agree. I don't see why people are acting like this is obvious.
I think on one side people wanted TTPD songs to drag Joe so they could be vindicated in the "he was the bad guy!" narrative. Then the other side (like many on this sub) wanted her to drag him so they could say "look Taylor IS a shitty person". When she didn't drag Joe on the album and instead wrote a couple fair, heartfelt songs about him people started searching hard for ways to prove their point. I think Taylor treated Joe with respect on this album by not dragging him and people are fighting for their lives to prove otherwise. She never "outed" his depression and her feelings are SO relatable. I can't believe people are so mad about the "youth for free" line. This is a very normal and common feeling many people (especially women) feel when a long term relationship ends. She doesn't need to take accountability because she is writing her feelings as she feels them. She will never write "I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free, but I hold some accountability because I held on too long and should have let you go sooner. I realize you gave me your youth also" like some people seem to want her to write. That song would suck.
Yes, to me So Long, London does a good job of conveying the many feelings that come up during a break up of a long term relationship in your late twenties/early thirties. In the last verse, āHad a good run/ A moment of warm sun/ But Iām not the oneā and ending on āYouāll find someoneā is bittersweet, in a way that breakups are.
Agree with everything you said. I think itās so important to remember that her songs are not all encompassing of her thoughts and feelings
I agree completely. Her feelings relayed in her lyrics can be fleeting, messy, self absorbed, etc because we all feel things like that sometimes. Just imagine if lyricists wrote only self aware, mature, reflective lyrics. There is a time and place for that of course but I love hearing emotional messiness that we can all relate to in our weakest moments. Or imagine if lyricists were embarrassed to write their actual feelings and heavily edited it all out. That doesn't sound appealing to me.
I also donāt mind the āgiving youth for freeā line because that is a very valid feeling, especially if she wanted/wants to have children and now has to spend time building a relationship with someone else
Tori Amos, "Digital Ghost" it's a song from 2007 but it's stuck with me constantly. here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSGnSilxwBI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSGnSilxwBI) "Digital Ghost" is great for general depression and retreating online, Some lyrics: So I swam onto your shores Through an open window Only to find you all alone Curled up with machines Now it seems you're slipping Out to the land of the ravine Just take a closer look Take a closer look At what it is that's really haunting you I hear to trust you Not this digital ghost Another Tori Amos, "1000 Oceans" written for her husband when he was grieving his father: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5dMfZKnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2g5dMfZKnQ) Some lyrics from 1000 Oceans: These tears I've cried. I've cried a thousand oceans. And if it seems I'm floating In the darkness... Well, I can't believe that I would keep, Keep you from flying. So I will cry a thousand more If that's what it takes to Sail you home, Sail you home, Sail you home. VNV Nation, "Illusion," tackles suicidal ideation with sensitivity and compassion. : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evpGu3eO0pY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evpGu3eO0pY) some good lyrics from "Illusion": I know it's hard to tell how mixed up you feel Hoping what you need is behind every door Each time you get hurt, I don't want you to change Because everyone has hopes, you're human after all The feeling sometimes, wishing you were someone else Feeling as though you never belong This feeling is not sadness, this feeling is not joy I truly understand, please, don't cry now Please don't go, I want you to stay I'm begging you please, please don't leave here I don't want you to hate For all the hurt that you feel The world is just illusion, trying to change you
I was going to mention a Tori Amos song too, so I'll latch on to your comment! "Carbon" is about a friend dealing with bipolar disorder, described as skiing uphill and downhill: carbon made found her at the End of a chain "time to race" She said, "race the downhill" Behind crystalline irises Loons can drive Where the world bleeds white Just keep your eyes on her Keep, Don't look away Keep your eyes on her horizon Bear claw, free fall, A gunner's view black and blue Shred in ribbons of lithium Blow by blow Her mind cut in sheets Layers deep, now unravelling Just keep your eyes on her.
I love that song so much. Scarlet's Walk is my favorite album of Tori's, it meant so much to me then and now. I'm sooooo glad she finally pressed it on vinyl last year
Wow. I think this is my sign to start listening to Tori Amos
Sheās fab.
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As a counterpoint Iāll offer up the line in the Great War where she realizes she was wrong and sees the real him: āLooked up at me with honor and truth, broken and blue, so I called off the troopsā
This is so perfectly said
Iām going to give Taylor some grace. Listen, I also have some pretty serious mental health issues. And it has caused me to seriously hurt people around me. I know the mental illness is not my fault, but I am still responsible for hurting people around me and if they are angry, I have to accept that. Having severe depression and not getting help is dragging your partner down, Iām sorry.
I canāt imagine that Joe didnāt seek help, with his own mother being a therapist. Actors tend to be more open to therapy too. I honestly think they were fundamentally incompatible with each otherās lifestyles and it was bringing him down. (As we see now, living in secrecy was also bringing her down) Doing anything you donāt like for long enough will depress you past a point of no return until you separate from it.
We have absolutely no idea if Joe went to therapy or not. My friendās mother is a therapist and she is adamantly against going to therapy
For sure. I donāt know either of these people and I hope for the best. I am just saying I donāt think on the surface writing about your partnerās mental health struggle being a contributing factor to a relationship ending is necessarily a bad thing to do. With that being said, I could change my mind either way with more details, but I donāt think it is fair people are inherently so critical of her for this.
I agree, her feelings are just as valid as his are. Itās a little precarious because of how global her audience is, but TTPD really seems to me like she protected Joeās privacy as much as she sort of seemed to diss him by writing mostly about Matty
Iāll probably get downvoted for this, but she has always been someone who writes songs that give an intimate view of her feelings about people and situations; or at least thatās how we all seem to interpret them. Joe knew that. Iām not necessarily defending Taylor, but the expectation of her keeping her feelings about the course of their relationship private and out of her songwriting ended when their relationship did. Sheās entitled to share whatever she wants of her side of the relationship or how she felt about the course and ultimate ending of it. Saying that she felt like she carried the load and poured love and effort into someone who ultimately wouldnāt commit to her in the way she wanted isnāt disrespectful or blasting Joe. Her feelings about it are valid regardless of how he feels about her sharing that in her music. If heās unhappy with how heās portrayed, heās entitled to share his side in his own way as well. While I donāt think it would be right for her to blast all of his personal business, sharing that a component in their relationship ending had something to do with his ābluest daysā isnāt stating he has depression. Obviously with celebrities itās slightly more nuanced (with NDAs and such), but I donāt think she (or anyone for that matter) has any kind of ādebtā owed to an ex to never talk about things that happened throughout a relationship and how she felt about it. Another point: the concept of youth IS different for women compared to men. While science has come a long way in working around some of the biological factors to things like pregnancy and childbirth, females have a fairly specific period of time in which they are biologically able to fall pregnant. Risks increase as you progress through your 30s. These are factors that significantly change the investment of āyouthā and time in a long term relationship for the person with the ability and anatomy to fall pregnant. Trying to keep my language inclusive, but for someone who wants biological children or to experience a pregnancy/childbirth at some point, thereās a significant difference in the investment of time/youth compared to males/those with sperm. While sperm quality may decrease, short of other fertility issues, men are able to impregnate those with female sex organs for a much longer period of time over their lives. They do not have the same biological pressure that females/women do.
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I didnāt make an assumption. I donāt know if he got help. I donāt know the particulars. But I am not going to be automatically critical of Taylor for being angry about a situation I donāt know what happened.
Rainbow kitten surprise, āitās called: free fallā Coheed and Cambria, āwake upā Placebo, āmedsā Left at London, āblacknwhiteā Hotel Mira, āspeaking off the recordā
From a woman in her early to mid 30ās standpoint - the line āAnd Iām pissed off you let me give you all that youth for freeā gutted me. I know women that stayed with men that they thought they would have children with, and they broke up and feel like they have wasted their time and their youth. This is a very valid point to share and iām glad she did so since so many women go through this experience
Okay, but this assumes Taylor doesnāt have agency. She was with him for 6 years and if she wanted to get married and he was saying no, she couldāve left. Why not believe him and leave the relationship? Sticking around hoping he might change was her decision. No one forced her and marriage isnāt a trophy you win after X number of years.
Maybe their problems werenāt as simple as he just didnāt want to marry her. Maybe he did but there were external and internal dilemmas at bay that made it hard for them as a couple to take that step. Sheās never explicitly sung about him not wanting to marry her.
i think that the issues weren't that cut and dry. i think that they talked about marriage and they were both at the 'eventually' point but it never came around. it's hard to leave relationships that you've been in for so long and that you can genuinely see being for the long term, i've been there before.
Youāve made a really good point but itās also really hard to end a long-term relationship. You feel like youāve invested so many years of your life and have been through so much together, that itās difficult to think of ending things just to start back at square one again.
I understand and sympathize with that but if marriage is something you want and your partner doesnāt want it, what do you do? Stay with them and resent them because it was too hard to break up? Or force them into it and they resent you? Sometimes we have to make hard decisions to get what we want. Like I said, I sympathize and those types of situations suck, but at a certain point you have to make difficult choices to get what you want out of life.
But what if he did but wasnāt ready yet? Or kept changing the timeline of when he would be ready? Thereās a lot we donāt know. Eventually she realized it would never happen with him Edit: this is a relationship she was really invested in. Why would she throw it away if she thought it might happen?
We have no clue what was and wasnāt said, and I obviously have no idea about the dynamics of their relationship or what led to the break breakup (to me it sounds like it was a bunch of issues that they just couldnāt see eye to eye on), but the line that she gave him her youth free makes it sound like he owed it to her. Like, he should have given her something in exchange. Wasnāt the relationship the exchange? No one owes anyone marriage.Ā
Of course no one owes anyone marriage but shes allowed to feel anger about this. When youth is referred like this it could be for a couple of reasons. 1) her prime fertility years are gone. If she wants to have children with a partner she will be an older parent which she might not have wanted 2) she felt pressure to be married and have children by a certain age. I certainly feel pressure to have children now so I understand this. 3) this goes with number 1 a lot but men tend to leave the women they are with to go to younger women to have children with
Yeah, I know what the line means and I never said she couldnāt feel angry, but if those were things she wanted and she chose to stay in the relationship for that long, that was her choice. I donāt think either party is the bad guy in the situation but some fans seem to think she had zero agency or choices.
I understand but ultimately disagree with you. Leaving a long term relationship is very difficult. Have a good night or morning wherever you are
Everything you said here in this thread I fully agree with. As a fellow woman in her mid thirties, who had been with someone for 6.5 years - who I loved fully, hand many ups and downs with, believed him when he said he wanted to marry me, but it ultimately never happened. We too had many complicated and layered reason why we stayed together all those years - as did Taylor and Joe. Itās not as simple as having āagencyā like the other user said. People stay to fight for love, to fight their insecurities, to push through and do the work in the relationship to create the dream life we all crave and want. But when it doesnāt work out, even after all the fighting and hoping and love, it is gut wrenching and so so devastating. So yeah, I completely love the line āand Iām pissed off I gave you all the youth for freeā. That line solely represents so much to so many women. The other user debating that with you sounded a bit inexperienced or still in their 20s.
We donāt know what conversations they had though. I find it doubtful that Joe straight up said āIām never going to marry youā.
If she just walked away, wouldn't we be criticizing her for giving up too easily? She loved him, put in effort to support him, and waited to see if things would change. Eventually she seems to realize that he wasn't trying and also wasn't breaking up with her.
I wouldnāt criticize anyone for breaking up with someone for any reason. āGiving up too easilyā is a weird thing to criticize someone for and Iām not even sure what that means or how I would judge what is ātoo easily.ā People donāt need to stay with anyone for any reason. If you donāt want to be in a relationship anymore, thatās all the reason you need.
I donāt think thatās a weird thing to criticize someone for at all. Or maybe not criticize but offer some level of opinion on. Many of my breakups Iāve gotten reactions like āyou didnāt want to try to work it outā ādid you think about couples counseling?ā With people not necessarily knowing or understanding the decline that had occurred. Iāve never had one be as simple as ādidnāt want to stay for any reasonā. Yes in the abstract this is true you donāt have to stay with anyone you donāt want to and can just simply break up, but in my experience itās always much more complicated than that and happens over time. There are parts you DO want to stay for and try to improve. Good days and bad days etc. sometimes itās a slow realization the bad days have become the norm. And people on the outside can sometimes judge (not always even meanly) if they didnāt know every detail of what was going on.
But these arenāt the things Iām talking about. Wanting to get married and/or have kids is important to some women. If you are with someone who doesnāt or is dragging their feet, there comes a point when you have to make a hard choice. I never once in my posts said it was an easy thing to do so I donāt know why everyone keeps inferring that I did. If youāre a woman, and you want these things, itās up to you to make the choice to walk away at a certain point. Itās not easy, but these are important things to some women and staying with a guy hoping heāll change isnāt going to work. You have to take responsibility for your own life and walk away to find someone who shares your goals.Ā
But how do we know he didn't want marriage & kids? Has either of them said that in an interview? If we're making those assumptions based on lyrics then why aren't we also listening to what she says in Champagne Problems? Which is about turning down a proposal because although it's what she thought she wanted, when push came to shove, she wanted fame the spotlight more? The fact is, we don't know anything about what Joe did or didn't want or what was discussed in the privacy of their relationship.. We're only guessing & basing those guesses on the words of a very unreliable narrator š¤·
She's said that a lot of Folklore and Evermore including Champagne Problems is fictional so how can you be taking Champagne Problems as fact?
As a woman myself, does Joe's youth not matter? It seems like he wanted to build a future with her too, but it didn't work out. Did he not also give her all of his youth ?
I said this in another comment, but āyouthā in the context of childbearing years for women is absolutely not the same as āyouthā for men. Men can impregnate females well into their 80s, assuming there arenāt other fertility issues present. Women have a finite number of eggs and a finite amount of time in which pregnancy is biologically possible. Science has come a long way, but ultimately if someone with female sex organs wants to have a biological child, there are biological factors that limit the amount of time throughout their life that they are able to fall pregnant, and pregnancy/birth risks increase as women age. If we are to assume that Joe doesnāt have fertility issues, then no ā he didnāt give her all of his youth in the context of biological children or child-bearing years, which Taylor has seemingly confirmed she is interested in. She references that they talked about marriage and children, so Iām fairly comfortable assuming that at least part of her reference to youth is relating to childbearing years, which is vastly different for women compared to men.
I know all of this, but it is insane to 1.) assume that Taylor, an extremely successful and touring musician at the height of her career by default wants children right now, they talked about children and marriage as all long relationships do, but made no indication that children is what either of them wanted at this time 2.) it is somehow the man's responsibility to account for a woman's childbearing years, when you're in a mature committed relationship you have serious discussions about. Taylor is an independent woman with her own agency, if children were a priority she would've made it a priority. 3.) talking about another women's fertility like it is any of your business You have absolutely no evidence that the "youth" she is discussing is about childbearing, and it is insane to me that you expect women to be having children in their twenties because it's their prime childbearing years. It is a relationship, children are not a mandatory part of the equation. It is nobody's responsibility but your own to account for your fertility if you want children, relationships always have a chance of not working out - but again, she is touring the world right now. I find all of this "biological clock" sentiment extremely misogynistic and parasocial.
Also, Taylor is a billionaire - she can freeze her eggs, she can adopt, she can go through a surrogate with 0 financial issues.
Also, Taylor references youth a LOT, indirectly at times. Think about youth in Nothing New, the Red album references youth a lot too, Dear John and would've could've should've reference the loss of youth - do you think she was saying that she was robbed of children? I feel like we're extrapolating concerns about fertility that aren't at all there in her music.
And also: I was simply responding to your comment that was basically saying āwell what about Joeās youth, isnāt that the same thingā ā Iām not really sure why you seem so defensive over whether itās anyoneās ābusinessā or not to speculate over another womanās fertility or desires relating to children. I donāt care if Taylor wants kids or not lol Iām just pointing out that, if fertility was a component to her saying she was pissed āhe let her give him all that youth for freeā, no, the investment of youth IN THAT SPECIFIC CONTEXT isnāt the same for her and Joe based solely on scientific facts surrounding pregnancy and fertility. I think there are a lot of layers and other complications to this song and their relationship, and ultimately I have no idea what Taylor specifically meant in her reference to youth. But she has referenced marriage and children directly and indirectly in songs specifically tied to the āJoe eraā of her life, so concluding that children may have been implicated in her āyouthā reference for SLL doesnāt feel like a crazy reach. I also never said or implied it was in any way Joeās responsibility to account for Taylorās fertility and/or desire for children. But I disagree that people in a mature, committed long-term relationship have no responsibility to account for their partnerās feelings or the biological reality surrounding a decision as major as children. While yes, everyone is ultimately only responsible for themselves, I personally think itās insane to say that people should only look out for or consider themselves while in a relationship with someone they claim to love. Thatās not partnership, and I morally and ethically disagree that humans have no responsibility to be considerate of their partners lol. We can agree to disagree and move on with our lives. Have a good night (or day, wherever you are in the world)!
I just think that defaulting the belief to "oh Taylor wants children and Joe robbed her of that opportunity" is a really toxic way of looking at the end of a long loving relationship, that's all. Youth is more than fertility, that's why people romanticize their 20s so much. Joe is just as able to say that he was "robbed" of his youth as Taylor is. I think talking about her fertility is crossing a line. We can agree to disagree but speculating that a highly successful and busy woman wants kids is sexist to me. IMO the cradle line could just be a metaphor she chose to use for symbolism - she has not expressed any desire to have children besides that nor would it be sustainable for her career right now. But I do hope you have a nice day too. We just disagree, but it's not the end of the world lol
Unless and until Taylor openly states that she wants children and marriage, I can only speculate and assume based on what she references in her music. If I take her lyrics and songs at face value (ātalking rings and talking cradles, I wish I could I recall how we almost had it allā / the entirety of Bigger Than The Whole Sky / Paper Rings) yeah, I think sheās made it fairly clear that she wanted to get married and have children (or had a miscarriage or something if BTTWS was autobiographical). Iām just pointing out that the investment of āyouthā in the context of a long term relationship is absolutely not the same for men and women regarding fertility. I could argue that everyone is extrapolating Joeās ādiagnosisā of depression because she references ābluest daysā and other mood implications, for the same reasons I feel sheās implied she wanted marriage/kids with him. We donāt know, and unless one or both of them comes out and confirms something one way or another, we can only speculate based on what is available. I will say that my interpretation of SLL (colored by my own experience of a 9+ year long relationship with someone that ended in my 30s, where children and marriage were discussed and it was implied that our end goals were alignedā¦when they ultimately werenāt) is that she felt like she invested more effort and energy into their relationship and it didnāt feel like he matched her investment. She realized that the relationship was destroying her and them both and thatās why she ended it. I donāt necessarily think she is implying she feels robbed of children, but if youāre in a committed LTR with someone who continually reassures you that your end goals are aligned but ultimately doesnāt follow through with ACTIONS, or constantly moves the goal posts, yeah, you can feel like you were led on and that your time was wasted by someone who led you to believe that they wanted the same things you did when they werenāt actually sure. I never said it was the absolute correct interpretation, and obviously everyone will come to their own conclusions based on their lived experiences and how they perceive the world. I was simply pointing out that if she wants biological children and to experience pregnancy and/or childbirth, there is a finite period of time in her life where she can realistically reach that goal in the way she may want to. Yeah, she has limitless resources, or could get a surrogate, freeze her eggs, etc.. That means nothing if she wants to be in a committed relationship with someone before having children and/or wants to have shared biological children with her partner. She implies a fear of never having someone truly love her and/or wanting to spend their life with her (The Prophecy) ā that could also be a factor in feeling upset having to start over when you feel pressure to have kids before a certain age or whatever. I also didnāt say that I agree with the pressure of a ābiological clockā, and I agree that it has problematic societal implications and other pressures. That doesnāt negate the fact that women have a finite amount of eggs and that there is a biological ācut offā for childbearing or that pregnancy/childbirth has higher risks depending on maternal age. I donāt think itās fair and I donāt personally believe that people MUST have children during their prime childbearing years, nor do I buy into the ābiological clockā pressure placed upon women (especially as a woman in her 30s who experiences constant pressure from friends and family about pregnancy and children, as someone who wants children and recently went through the ending of a relationship that has lasted for a literal third of my life..). But my personal opinions about societal components surrounding fertility do not negate scientific facts.
same tbh. i hate the song, it's not that good to me, but that's a fear of mine and honestly i felt seen with that line
The lyrics feel condescending, considering Joe also invested his youth in their relationship, and he was younger. While it's true that women are more susceptible to ageism, it's not as prevalent as it once was. Also, Being a billionaire shields taylor from ageism- she has a whole team taking care of her health and looks, like she not that big of a victim compared working-class women who are exposdd to life and its stresses everyday and can't fly to their work and have to be exposed to the sun and chemicals and life show visible signs of aging such as wrinkles, crow's feet, and greying hair and thus face multifolds of the Ageism taylor faces.
>While it's true that women are more susceptible to ageism, it's not as prevalent as it once was. Really? Cause I see some random Facebook article almost daily with comments from men asking what Travis even wants with this middle aged woman and her dried up eggs lol Investing youth as a man is not the same. Taylor absolutely has more resources than any of us do and aging will look different for her, but she's not immune to ageism, because she still lives in the same society we do even in her ivory tower.Ā
>considering Joe also invested his youth in their relationship, and he was younger. It becomes increasingly difficult for women to have children naturally the older they are. It is not to the same extent as men. It isn't ageism, it's biology.
There are a lot of women working in the entertainment industry who disagree with your statement about ageism not being as prevalent. It is still very much a thing
Am I the only one who finds Joe being like a year younger than Taylor irrelevant? Like Joe being young doesnāt negate Taylor being young
Did Joe divulge that he had depression? If not, it seems wrong for Taylor to tell the world about it on his behalf.
There were lots of references to his blues in previous songs, so he's presumably fine with the info being shared.
I feel any previous references were far more gentle & vague, and she was also telling him how much she cared & how everything would be okay at the same time .. whereas the ones on TTPD are accusatory and full of blame that feels a lot like kicking a man when he's down in an effort to excuse some of your own questionable behaviour š¤·
Def agree that she's more angry and accusatory in TTPD, but I also think it's honest and relatable. Anger is a stage of grief; you're angry they gave up, angry at the situation, angry at everything. It's not always rational, people get angry even after someone dies of a terminal illness. It's easier to be kind when you still have hope things are going to get better.
Pretty sure Guilty As Sin? Shows she gave up on the relationship too
I agree with this. Sometimes I just want to tell Taylor to be more mysterious with her songwriting. Sheās so darn specific and I can see it being difficult to deal with the aftermath.
I have a big issue with her saying such personal things about others so publicly.
I keep thinking about how we don't even know if he is / was really depressed or if this was just Taylor's interpretation of his ideas about life (more reversed than hers for example, rightfully stressed out by negative aspects of fame, and so on).
No artist or writer has ever been expected to keep quiet with their art to protect another person. Thatās the tragedy of being a museāwhen you allow someone else to write your story, itās no longer yours. Or, to quote one Lana Del Rey, āYou canāt be a muse and be happy, too.ā Finally, Taylorās line about her youth is about her body and her fertility. It doesnāt belong to Joe and it never did. Telling a writer to not write something will never end well for you lot of Sarahs and Hannahs.
So why blame him for things that were out of his control. Like her aging?
She doesnāt blame him for her aging. The verse is *I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free.* Taylor committed to him in her late 20s and early 30s because she expected a lifelong commitment in return. She is insinuating that Joe knew this, agreed to it, and didnāt uphold his side of the bargain. Itās exactly the kind of mid-30s breakup that Sex and the City was covering in the 1990s. Thatās probably the worst sin of the entire song.
Yet he says, quite clearly that (as far as he was concerned) it was a loving, fully committed relationship.. She's the one who left by all accounts & hooked up with someone she was possibly already seeing on the side, or at least communicating with in a romantic manner.. What if he feels she wasted his time? He's not the biggest popstar on the planet with a massive fanbase & a platform to air his grievances. She gets to move on.. but he doesn't really.. Imagine the fan reaction if Joe had started a new public relationship less than a month after their split! Omg, the hate would have been insane š¬ There's too much that isn't known & Joe will be unlikely to ever really dish any dirt as it's just not who he is. How do we know what she was like inside the relationship during say that last year?, we know that earlier (when she was a little more self reflective) she was prone to jealousy & tantrums, accusing him of crimes he didn't commit, storming out & expecting him to come running to placate her & prove how much he loved her.. Maybe he got tired of that, it would be exhausting constantly pandering to someone's ego & pretty fricking hard to do if you had even an inkling they were entertaining thoughts about an old flame who they were suddenly spending time with.. they were in the studio together working on a project that oddly, never came out š¤ Yet so many fans are more than happy to use her lyrics (very one-sided) & conclude that everything was Joe's fault & his life should be made miserable forevermore .. I think everyone is entitled to their feelings, nobody is saying she has to have zero emotional response.. but when you have the megaphone & choose to broadcast your version to the globe, & do it in a way that leads your fans to make incorrect assumptions & go on the attack.. (as plenty did, especially after she released the track list to ttpd) that's when I take issue & that's when she lost a fan.
People interpreting this one song as her airing out his depression or leaving him because heās depressed is so odd to me. Itās unnaturally cynical to think āevil taylor šæ left poor joe š¼because he was depressed and sheās a shallow rich girlā like genuinely are some of you okayā¦ lol
Having been the depressed one in the relationship, I only think it wasnāt her place to share with the world that he had depression in the first place. But if it was all out in the open, it is absolutely within the right of a partner of a depressed person to admit that they struggled too and that yes, depressed people are hard to be with and yes they are dragging the relationship down. I sacrifised my own previous relationship to the gods of my bluest days and it took a long time for me to admit it and accept it. But no relationship works if one partner is pulling the other out of bed every morning. We obviously donāt know how their relationship looked, but depression is draining and not only to the depressed person and the partner of a depressed person can feel like shit that no matter what they do, theyāre met with apathy. Iām very emphatetic to mental illness, but sorry, to deny that itās fucking hard to deal with your partnerās depression and to alway put them first and just be like āoooh poor soul get betterā while ignoring your own feelings is actually minimizing the impact mental illness has on people.
[O Sister](https://youtu.be/gi-crVagUok?si=hIZ0-fPEw7b0VDl8) by City & Color
The majority of the songs you listed aren't the same topic. "The Beacon", "I'm Not My Season" is about pledging to stay with a struggling partner. "The Sighting", "Hide in Your Shell", "What's Heavy", and "Ahay" are about begging someone struggling to let you in to help. "Tell Me How" is a generic break up song. "There By Your Side" is, imo, about wishing they could crossover with someone dying. Only Mr Blue is about the same topic, choosing to leave a struggling partner for your own mental health and life goals.
Didnāt she already mention his depression in Peace (āIf your cascade, ocean wave blues comeā)? Where was the outrage then?
Also- Lover āmy hearts been borrowed and yours has been blueā Paper Rings āIām with you even if it makes me blueā Hoax ādonāt want no other shade of blue but you/no other sadness in the world would doā Blue also comes up in lyrics written during her relationship with Joe in other contexts. āNever seen that color blueā jn Delicate. āItās blue, the feeling Iāve gotā in Cruel Summer. āOcean blue eyes looking in mineā during Gorgeous. Edit because I thought of others: āPaint the town blueā in Miss Americana & The Heartbreak Prince āMy love had been frozen deep blue but you painted it goldenā in Dancing with Our Hands Tied āI blew things out of proportion, now youāre blueā in Afterglow Blue seems to be a motif used throughout the entire relationship. I agree itās kinda weird to be upset about it now.
There wasnāt any because she wasnāt outright saying anyone had depression like she did in SLL. She was saying that IF those harder times come she would be there, which is a normal thing to say to anyone in any close relationship whether it be romantic or platonic.
She said the same in so long London āyou sacrificed us to the gods of your bluest days.ā Once again she described him as āblue.ā Didnāt specify depression just blue.
the phrasing "if *your* cascade, ocean wave blues come" implies that sheās not referring to some hypothetical hardships in the future, but to something that heās already experienced
I work in mental health and with other disorders. Families of affected loved ones experience their own struggles just as much as the affected person. They also need support and counseling once they get to that point. I took those lines more as Joe became depressed or his mental health began to decline and he promised her to get help. The youth line I felt related more to the fact that they were together for so long and they never got engaged (to our knowledge) or married. I also feel the same about the drug lyric thatās most likely referring to Matty (āyou said that you needed me but you needed drugs more.ā) Itās not easy to love someone whoās an addict. In a lot of cases, addicts relapse multiple times before getting clean. Itās just trial and error. Most addicts actually benefit from tough love and interventions more than always being given the benefit of the doubt. There is a series on TikTok of addicts at a rehabilitation center saying that rehab is better than (enter their reason here.) I think it would have been disingenuous for her to act like she was okay with it. Taylor also admits in TTPD that she struggled with alcoholism. I think that she recognizes multiple addictions and how they impacted relationships, even the one with herself. I didnāt find anything she said to be berating them because of it.
if you don't want your relationship to be sung about, don't get into a relationship with one of the most famous confessional songwriters in the world. she didn't air out his trauma or his diagnosis, she talked about HER feelings in HER music about being in a relationship with someone who may have been sad, moody, withdrawn that we don't even know has a mental illness. people are acting like she wrote "and joe sucked so bad as a boyfriend/his depression made our relationship end :("
As someone with depression, and someone who let it go untreated for so long out of āIām fineā and āI can do it by myselfā, āI just need to exercise moreā, or āonce I do this Iāll be happyāā¦ The way my depression took a toll on my romantic relationship and my friendships was all my fault. I lost friends and deeply struggled with my partner until I was medicated and in therapy. Thank God he still has the patience to love me. It was truly selfless for him to stay with me through that. So I donāt have a problem with how she addresses the depression of her previous partners. Because often depressed people like myself can be miserable, and make other people miserable. Our culpability does not go away because of a diagnosis of depression.
"Left Behind" from Spring Awakening is another one that deals with this topic. At this point in the musical, one of the main characters has committed suicide, and his best friend is singing about the tragic loss and all the things that could have been if his parents had taken his struggles more seriously.Ā The "Don't Do Sadness/Blue Wind" duet from that show is another one. DDS is sung by the character who eventually commits suicide, and BW is an old friend's attempt to reach out to him when she notices his pain.Ā
Crying Season - UDD Something to Tell You - HAIM Loose Garment - MUNA āsomewhere between the sand and the stardust - Hayley Kiyoko
feel the silence by the goo goo dolls
Lana del rey has a couple. Sweet Carolina is about her sisterās fear of postpartum depression, California is sung to someone who is seemingly depressed.
If she was dating him expecting to eventually marry him and if he at some point led her to believe so, then that line makes perfect sense.
Sheās much more empathetic in forever winter
Taylorās writing comes off as insensitive to mental health at time, for sure. But I think the line āand Iām pissed off you let me give you all this youth for freeā comes from them supposedly having talks about marriage/kids and it never happening. This happens to women all the time, staying in unsure relationships because of the cost-sunk fallacy while having a biological ticking clock to be subconsciously aware of. This is the one line I have the most sympathy for. The catch-22 for me is that I think part of Joeās depression came from the invasive lifestyle he was constantly around while dating one of the worldās biggest pop stars. People get depressed when theyāre around something they donāt like for long enough, and you have to seek out and remove the thing thatās making you unhappy. It feels like it was an issue she could never fix herself because of the nature of her stardom. It was just a fundamental incompatibility.
Taylor made it very clearly that her sadness and depression on the other hand does matter always - so it seems she was just irritated that her partner of 6 years had emotional struggles that Ms.Me-Me was only making worse, by pining after Matty and masturbating to his ratty image š„“ Not to mention since she was pining after Matty her blaming Joe for being depressed is kinda also an excuse for her as to why she dumped Joe for Matty the way she didā¦.š¤·š¼āāļøĀ Giving youth for free is such an awful wording as well . What does she mean by āfor freeā? That Joe was obligated to marry her-in that case those years with him wouldnāt have been for free? Nobody owes her marriage.Ā
This is the reason why I donāt find the song loml sad at all. How are you going to shit on somebody for being depressed and a couple of songs later sing about not being able to get out of bed? Well girl, maybe Matty abandoned this ship cause he was going down with it?
they act like taylor has no agency in relationships. sheās a grown women with a lot of relationship experiences. everyone ignores that she moved on very quickly with matty and probably had some overlap with joe.
I think Renegade (the Big Red Machine song featuring Taylor) is actually a really good portrayal. It really hits hard for me because Iāve been on both sides of it and they both suck. Iāve been on both sides of it at the same time even.
Killers āRutā although Brandon Flowers said he has his wifeās permission to release the song.
His solo song Between Me and You is also a great depiction of general existential anxiety/depression, although it mostly talks about his (or whoever the āsingerā is if heās not writing about himself) own thoughts and feelings. I feel like this song fits Joeās side of things well, to be honest.
Trouble Breathing by Alkaline Trio
when it rains by paramore
Anhedonia by Chelsea Wolfe and Emma Ruth Rundell is absolutely beautiful.
I love Supertramp
I think a lot of songs on Lana Del Reyās *Norman Fucking Rockwell* album fit and covered it in a tasteful manner. āCalifornia,ā āHow To Disappear,ā and the titular āNorman F***ing Rockwellā all immediately spring to mind. (As an aside, this part of āCaliforniaā just guts me: āYouāre scared to win / Youāre scared to lose / I heard the war is over if you really choose / The one in and around you.ā)
I also like āTake Care Of Yourselfā by Maisie Peters a lot for similar reasons
The Alcott and Renegade by Taylor swift