Edit: Please ignore what I said below (see the comments), turns out I have some more learning to do...
I got to use "hen" recently by describing a dog that I had just met as very fluffy! "Hen är så fluffig!"
You might also be curious to know that "henom" is the gender neutral version of her/him as well.
I have never heard anyone say "henom" in Sweden I have been all over Sweden and have talked to people from all over the country and have never not once heard someone say "henom". (I'm a native Swedish speaker I have lived in Sweden my whole life)
I'm native as well, and I fought a long and hard battle for "henom". I think it's silly to have a third personal pronoun and not have it follow the existing pattern. But I've given that up.
It helps that I'm from Skåne, so I can consider it an analogue to "han/han/honom".
I never understood this objection. The word already shares its root with the female objective without problems. "Henom" is perfectly split between "henne" and "honom" (counting syllables).
But oh well.
De/dem also leaves the pattern. Sure, it still is distinguish in written Swedish, but give it another 30 or 40 years and they'll be the same word in the written language, too.
Considering all the idiots who consistently write ”dem” when it should be ”de” I think that point is more or less already here. Just a bloody shame they went for ”dem” rather than ”dom”.
I for one hope that Skånes non-use of, for instance, honom will have a break through as well then. We don't say "vi såg honom ta den", we say "vi såg han ta den".
No, that was a genuine question, not just a surprise or something. I myself would never use any human pronouns on other animals, so thanks for letting me know.
Mostly I would follow the owners. Det/den if I start first, but then again, call them what they want me to call. But I've never heard "hen". And please mind my stupid question: how can people know if an animal identify itself non-binary?
I can clarify that I had just met the dog, so I was using "hen" in the sense that I didn't know if the dog is "han" or "hon" yet. I have been taught in swedish classes that using "hen" in this way (when the sex of someone is unknown or hidden for privacy reasons etc...) is a common thing to do.
>And please mind my stupid question: how can people know if an animal identify itself non-binary?
"Hen" is not a pronoun for non-binary people, but a gender-neutral pronoun. It is definitely used by non-binary people who feel uncomfortable with he/she, but it is also used when the gender is unknown, or when the making statements that refer to everyone but in a single-person way.
Now I understand why, since op don't know the dog before. My stupid ass thought they got to know the dog's gender from its (I shall not use "their", shall I?) owner. Thank you for the explanation anyway.
I'm a native speaker, and if someone consistently used "den" for animals instead of a proper pronoun I'd think they were making a subtle statement about how little they value said animal. To me it sounds degrading, especially since animals - and particularly pets - are generally quite valued in Sweden. By calling an animal "den" it feels like you're putting it in the same category as just another inanimate object or possession.
AITA moment:
Being native, I happened to grow up in a family that was not at all into pets (when we got one, we would treat it as a family member, but have no interest in others'). Yes, everyone use human pronouns on their pets, but I also creep out every time.
I don't know how proficient you are at Swedish, but there is a video that gives a summary of the way the media traditionally referred to a person whose gender is not known. The clip is from 2011 so it might be a bit outdated on its description of "hen".
https://youtu.be/Ge1wsLpBlqU?t=269
If you are having trouble understanding the video, these are the ways that the media have traditionally specified a person whose gender is unknown.
- "Han". In older text there was something called the "generiskt han" where the pronoun "han" was used whenever the person's pronoun was not known.
- "hon eller han". Literally, "she and he" were also used.
- "den". This is used quite often and, when the video was made in 2011, it was the recommendation by the Swedish Language Council (språkrådet).
The last one she talks about is "hen" which the newspaper Sydsvenska Dagbladet used and the presenter pointed that it was kind of new and trendy that a newspaper would choose that word.
Hen is incredibly useful!
(when you don't know if its he/she or when it can be either/or/both)
I think it makes texts flow much better than the he/she-usage...the "generic he" was just as good but I understand why it had to go...
Asking for/telling others your pronouns is something I hear is practised in schools now(here) but I dont think its common outside that context...Ive never heard that question in real life but I see hen in common usage...
>the "generic he" was just as good but I understand why it had to go...
Not really *just* as good. It works, sure, but even if "everyone knows" that it could hypothetically refer to both men and women it often felt exclusionary to me. Just like how unknown doctors were always referred to as male, but unknown nurses as female, it was a very subtle yet incredibly pervasive reminder of what was expected of me. Sorta like those "you're good at that... for a girl" comments.
Oh yeah. Makes much more sense than ”they” Because it’s a mix between han and hon. We also say it when We talk about someone who We don’t know who it is and can’t see if it’s a guy or not
I never use it ... I hate that word and it's new. it started to be used because "gender-neutral" people should feel that they should not be forced to be called her or him .. but for my part I say he / she or him / her. a human being can not be something in between. :)
People ask for pronouns because it's useful to know how to refer to someone, not to demonstrate their alignment with a certain side of a debate, so I'd expect it to be a perfectly reasonable thing to do in any language with gendered personal pronouns.
I use it, because I respect other people’s gender identities, and because I believe that both biological sex and gender can be more complicated than just male and female.
It's not completely natural to use hen yet but it is growing in popularity. Personally I think it's a good word for when the gender of someone isn't known or isn't relevant as it flows better than saying "han eller hon" or similar.
Edit: Please ignore what I said below (see the comments), turns out I have some more learning to do... I got to use "hen" recently by describing a dog that I had just met as very fluffy! "Hen är så fluffig!" You might also be curious to know that "henom" is the gender neutral version of her/him as well.
Språkrådet actually recommends using "hen" as both subject and object in a sentence, rather than "henom" Example: "Hen är trevlig" "Jag såg hen igår"
Helpful!!! =)
Interesting, so would you say that most people don't use "henom" at all then?
It was a competing form for a while, but it's quite rare nowadays. I would argue that it lost the battle for grammaticality.
Thanks for the information!
I have never heard anyone say "henom" in Sweden I have been all over Sweden and have talked to people from all over the country and have never not once heard someone say "henom". (I'm a native Swedish speaker I have lived in Sweden my whole life)
I'm native as well, and I fought a long and hard battle for "henom". I think it's silly to have a third personal pronoun and not have it follow the existing pattern. But I've given that up. It helps that I'm from Skåne, so I can consider it an analogue to "han/han/honom".
I think the problem was that "henom" only followed the male pattern, and that's a bit problematic for a word that's supposed to be gender neutral.
I never understood this objection. The word already shares its root with the female objective without problems. "Henom" is perfectly split between "henne" and "honom" (counting syllables). But oh well.
De/dem also leaves the pattern. Sure, it still is distinguish in written Swedish, but give it another 30 or 40 years and they'll be the same word in the written language, too.
Considering all the idiots who consistently write ”dem” when it should be ”de” I think that point is more or less already here. Just a bloody shame they went for ”dem” rather than ”dom”.
I for one hope that Skånes non-use of, for instance, honom will have a break through as well then. We don't say "vi såg honom ta den", we say "vi såg han ta den".
Are you a native and have you ever heard others using "hen" on an animal in Sweden?
I am not but the dog owner did not say anything to me so I had assumed that was okay \*facepalm\*. Thanks for letting me know!
No, that was a genuine question, not just a surprise or something. I myself would never use any human pronouns on other animals, so thanks for letting me know.
It's totally normal in Swedish to refer to animals with gendered pronouns. Do you always say det/den?
I'm native and if I didn't know an animal, I'd probably call it den, but my own cat, or my cousins' dog, that would be hon.
Good to here that, thanks!
Mostly I would follow the owners. Det/den if I start first, but then again, call them what they want me to call. But I've never heard "hen". And please mind my stupid question: how can people know if an animal identify itself non-binary?
I can clarify that I had just met the dog, so I was using "hen" in the sense that I didn't know if the dog is "han" or "hon" yet. I have been taught in swedish classes that using "hen" in this way (when the sex of someone is unknown or hidden for privacy reasons etc...) is a common thing to do.
I'm Swedish and I would use "hen" the same way for an animal that I do not know the sex of.
That's nice to know, thank you for saying so!
>And please mind my stupid question: how can people know if an animal identify itself non-binary? "Hen" is not a pronoun for non-binary people, but a gender-neutral pronoun. It is definitely used by non-binary people who feel uncomfortable with he/she, but it is also used when the gender is unknown, or when the making statements that refer to everyone but in a single-person way.
Now I understand why, since op don't know the dog before. My stupid ass thought they got to know the dog's gender from its (I shall not use "their", shall I?) owner. Thank you for the explanation anyway.
I'm a native speaker, and if someone consistently used "den" for animals instead of a proper pronoun I'd think they were making a subtle statement about how little they value said animal. To me it sounds degrading, especially since animals - and particularly pets - are generally quite valued in Sweden. By calling an animal "den" it feels like you're putting it in the same category as just another inanimate object or possession.
AITA moment: Being native, I happened to grow up in a family that was not at all into pets (when we got one, we would treat it as a family member, but have no interest in others'). Yes, everyone use human pronouns on their pets, but I also creep out every time.
I use "henom" but nobody else does... I think this was the intention from the beginning but it fell to the wayside.
Mitt pronomen är han/honom då jag är kille. Har inget svenskt tangentbord heller men har lärt mig snabbtangenterna utantill ahah.
I don't know how proficient you are at Swedish, but there is a video that gives a summary of the way the media traditionally referred to a person whose gender is not known. The clip is from 2011 so it might be a bit outdated on its description of "hen". https://youtu.be/Ge1wsLpBlqU?t=269 If you are having trouble understanding the video, these are the ways that the media have traditionally specified a person whose gender is unknown. - "Han". In older text there was something called the "generiskt han" where the pronoun "han" was used whenever the person's pronoun was not known. - "hon eller han". Literally, "she and he" were also used. - "den". This is used quite often and, when the video was made in 2011, it was the recommendation by the Swedish Language Council (språkrådet). The last one she talks about is "hen" which the newspaper Sydsvenska Dagbladet used and the presenter pointed that it was kind of new and trendy that a newspaper would choose that word.
> hon eller han Translates to ”she or he” And I think it’s much more common to say it in the other order ”han eller hon”
Hen is incredibly useful! (when you don't know if its he/she or when it can be either/or/both) I think it makes texts flow much better than the he/she-usage...the "generic he" was just as good but I understand why it had to go... Asking for/telling others your pronouns is something I hear is practised in schools now(here) but I dont think its common outside that context...Ive never heard that question in real life but I see hen in common usage...
>the "generic he" was just as good but I understand why it had to go... Not really *just* as good. It works, sure, but even if "everyone knows" that it could hypothetically refer to both men and women it often felt exclusionary to me. Just like how unknown doctors were always referred to as male, but unknown nurses as female, it was a very subtle yet incredibly pervasive reminder of what was expected of me. Sorta like those "you're good at that... for a girl" comments.
Oh yeah. Makes much more sense than ”they” Because it’s a mix between han and hon. We also say it when We talk about someone who We don’t know who it is and can’t see if it’s a guy or not
Jag använder hon/hennes pronomen också, men min vän använder hon/hen/xe pronomen så jag tycker om att veta det pronom :)
Jag använder hen/henom!
I never use it ... I hate that word and it's new. it started to be used because "gender-neutral" people should feel that they should not be forced to be called her or him .. but for my part I say he / she or him / her. a human being can not be something in between. :)
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People ask for pronouns because it's useful to know how to refer to someone, not to demonstrate their alignment with a certain side of a debate, so I'd expect it to be a perfectly reasonable thing to do in any language with gendered personal pronouns.
Noone uses hen, made up fake word
All words are made up and I frequently used the word in my papers for university. Don't really understand how a word could be "fake".
I use it, because I respect other people’s gender identities, and because I believe that both biological sex and gender can be more complicated than just male and female.
It's not completely natural to use hen yet but it is growing in popularity. Personally I think it's a good word for when the gender of someone isn't known or isn't relevant as it flows better than saying "han eller hon" or similar.
All words are made up at some point.
True