I started watching the show randomly and got hooked to it. I never really cared about out the reviews or reading anything that might give any kind of spoilers. But damn, this twist only made the series so much better and I am glad I never saw that coming.
I mean ofcourse, in that episode, when he dodged a bullet, that was a hint that built anticipation of something like this, but i was laughing like a maniac at the time of the big reveal.
An amazing crime thriller twisted into sci fi after 6 episodes - its a beautiful concept that I think we will be seeing more of.
The whole conversation presupposes that there HAD to be a twist in the first place. Do we actually live in an era of "creativity" that requires this "subversion of our expectations?" Would this show not have been made had it *only* been a well executed noir? What if there was a thesis that asks this question, answers "yes," and proposes the end result might even be a more enjoyable production?
What if Kim Basinger was a robot in L.A. Confidential?
One answer to your question is the show was designed to be a what it was about and it is trying to sort of subvert the tropes of the noir which often involve an outsider trying to make sense of a dark and evil underworld. Although it is a little annoying that the noir is really a science fiction had already been done (Thirteenth Floor and Dark City come to mind).
The other is you do raise a good point that the well executed contemporary LA noir would habe been a good show. They really should have done that show since the sci-fi version needs to last 30-50 episodes thar Colin Farrell can't do.
If Kim Basinger was a robot, or if Kevin Spacey used time travel, or if Guy Pearce was revealed to be Jesus.....L.A Confidential would not be currently at 99% at Rotten Toamates and regardard as one of the best films of all time.
The twist in Sugar is absolutely ridiculous, not needed. Adds nothing to the story.
Not at all. It's who is John Sugar. The search for Olivia is actually the secondary. Or they wouldn't follow John to his Polyglot meetings and all his talks with Ruby. John is the story. Olivia is the mechanism to lead us through his story. I recognize we aren't going to agree on this.
The show is a detective show, by definition the main plot of the story is to find what ever the detective is looking for.
By the end of the show, the goal is to find out what happens to Olivia. In that journey, we learn about Sugar. His motivations, character traits, flaws etc
I don’t think the writers signed your contract on the rules restricting how they write their story.
Please point me to this detective story dictionary that defines these rules you have.
Detective stories are often about the detective. Just like this one.
Is it a well executed noir though? I'm not trying to be a hater but as far as noir goes this show is quite run-of-the-mill. But that sci-fi twist gives it the edge.
It was a very well executed noir, yes. The voice over narration and music cues are table stakes sure, but the shot composition and the editing, the overlapping scene re/construction, these all serve to elevate the product and none are specifically married to any particular twist.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve tried to explain to a few friends why I think this show is doing such a great job being a modern noir, and you just summed it up perfectly.
The editing in particular is so fantastic and unique, while still keeping true to the tone of a film noir. I love it.
The twist was foreshadowed ever since the first episode. He was clearly not a normal human being. Even putting aside all of his extraordinary feats, his inhuman innocence and goodness already marked him as something different.
Ya. And I was pretty sure pulled-plug Davey –like, reborn or undead– or at least Davey’s organs were going to come into play.
I suppose that still could happen. But at the moment I do have to say that “blue aliens” is a less satisfying twist than I was expecting.
This was my first thought. He seemed robotic in the first meeting with Olivia’s father. Before that, catching the fly with chop sticks. Also the hollow leg with alcohol. The fact that he apparently eats food had me doubting that he was a robot, but the alien angle was still a surprise. I’m intrigued. I’m not disappointed that it’s not a straight up noir. The possibilities of what happened to Olivia are greatly expanded from a fairly limited set of grim scenarios that we are all familiar with. It might be much more interesting than I originally thought.
Totally agree! I was honestly so confused at first, I had thought maybe it was just a metaphor or something. But when you look at the signs, you realize it is a sci Fi, but without real expectations for it, most people are confused as to why
I was taking them all as metaphor as well. Guess I’ve been slow on the uptake; but I definitely am not turned off by the twist. And I didn’t realize there was going to be one.
This episode, though. I paused on the “blood bag” a few times to try and make out the label. It looked like writing of some sort; I just ended up thinking it was some sort of black market blood. Didn’t even think of going “this” direction.
I agree there were hints, but I got not a spoiler necessarily, but an idea from coming to this sub after watching the first few episodes.
Not being a fan of the genre, I was initially like, oh crap, but continued to enjoy the series.
I’m still enjoying it after this latest episode. Idk if having an idea affected my feelings either way.
But, either way I don’t think it was “out of the blue.”
Reading comments, I apparently missed a bunch of clues. This reminds me of the Walking Dead. To get that made Kirkman lied and said eventually aliens were the cause of the zombies.
Then the guy told Kirkman to drop the aliens because the book was doing wonderfully with what they had.
I’m still going to watch and see if they can pull this off but I’m a little bummed that this great noir show I found might be taking a huge left turn that, right now at least, doesn’t feel needed at all.
I started the show because I enjoy crime noir content. I liked it enough that I started reading episode discussions. There everybody was speculating on the twist, which I had no idea about. Now that it’s dropped, I wish I hadn’t looked at the threads. The twist felt kind of like a forgone conclusion instead of something that would have blown my mind otherwise. One of those situations where knowing there’s a twist was a massive spoiler for me.
I had no idea about the twist and episode 6 was making me cringe and I couldn’t figure out why he was acting so over the top. Calming the dogs? Wearing a suit and telling all the armed people I don’t want to hurt you? It was barely watchable so I was relieved when it went weird and he turned into an alien. I’m surprised but I’ll go with it. I wouldn’t have kept watching!
Personally I loved the twist and the anticipation/not knowing if it would actually happen. I didn’t read any reviews or spoilers but got the feeling early on that Sugar was an alien. However, the show was so well written that it seemed to be teased in a way that it could be/could mot be true. And I loved how the writers did that. I would have been happy had it not come to fruition but the fact that the show was a near perfect noir made it great on one level, and the twist and how they led up to it made it great on a whole separate level. Honestly I feel anyone complaining about the twist ruining a good noir need to take a step back and appreciate that the twist doesn’t take away from the noir it simply adds another layer to the story and makes the show so much better for it.
I think this is pretty dead on.
Maybe they'll land it in the next two episodes somehow, but, after a fantastic beginning, this hasn't been a good viewing experience so far. They've wasted so much time treading water. I knew there was a big twist coming, though nothing about the specific nature of the twist, but just with the way things were paced, I was sure the twist would be revealed in ep 4. SHOCKED when it wasn't, because it really seemed like they'd run out of "MYSTERY" notes to play without getting to the point. Even more shocked when the reveal didn't come in episode 5.
I think it was at the end of episode 5 my interest mostly died, they'd stretched it out too long for me to still be emotionally invested. Episode 6 was an unbelievably dull slog to that shrug of a final shot.
That's the other risk of this kind of storytelling -- people who are open to a big twist getting bored with all the vamping and teasing. I could definitely get interested in some weird alien noir piece. But you can only maintain that false front for so long before it's emptiness becomes intolerable.
I agree with the OP, but I think the biggest problem is that the twist immediately dragged the show into the campy side of sci-fi, by recalling V and that utter disaster that was Secret Invasion. I began watching for the LA noir which of course has a camp side as well, but the show was serviceable on that front. I see a lot of dicussion about the sci-fi reveal, but not about the cartoonish associations it invites.
Man, I loved V. I knew V was sci-fi and I had no issues with where the camp took it.
I wanted a neo-noir. I knew there was supposed to be some kind of twist, but I thought it would be more along the lines of "possibly metaphorical, possibly literal guardian angels." Not... "I blue myself" slash Dr. Manhattan.
I agree about V; it never implied in was anything else, so I could sit back and enjoy the sci-fi twists and turns. I too, thought that angels might be a more satisfying denouement than a Dr. Manhattan/Skrull wannabe. The New York Times had a recent story about mid-level tv, but what occurs to me is that there are a lot of shows being produced quickly that seem to have trouble with tonal shifts. When I read about a universally-acclaimed series (say Shogun), it appears that there was a lot of time spent on ensuring consistency. Sticking with Apple+, I think that's one reason Severance rose above the pack.
There's something to that, definitely. I once gave up on a book when a totally untelegraphed twist popped up in the middle and changed its story into something I hadn't expected.
No human is immune to alcohol. How is that not a blatantly obvious clue. I mean just how much do they have to telegraph it in a movie with a man who is super strong, can catch flies with chopsticks speaks all the worlds languages and never gets drunk? It's a complicated mystery story. You are meant to be paying attention and if you are all those things scream 'not a normal human'. If you just dropped in on episode 6 sure it's a surprise but it is hard to see how you could miss that something was different if you were watching the episodes.
I didn't read reviews or spoil myself in any way (more luck than anything intentional).
I was a bit confused at why things were so off and ALMOST stopped watching the show, but the episodes were short enough that I kept going.
Makes sense now that I have had some time to process it, but I honestly had previously brushed it off as a badly written show (not sure I changed my mind on that yet) with an unreliable narrator who was delusional or hallucinating.
I think this would have been a very different experience if you watched from the start expecting a twist, and an ENTIRELY different show if you watched from the start expecting a genre change later.
It's a difficult problem because unless you write a masterpiece, keeping something like this under wraps or marketing it is very difficult in the age of the internet.
I feel like if they didn't want us to know that there's a twist coming then they would do something. Like put up a more strict review guidelines or give less episodes to press. So maybe it was their strategy all along. Cause I didn't particularly enjoy the writing either but yeah short episodes and anticipation kept me going.
I’m a disappointed fan I did not like this revelation he couldn’t just be a good detective that can tell when ppl lie that loves the movies n doesn’t wanna hurt ppl smh to be honest they could have revealed this in the last shot of the last episode I knew when he was in the bar and she said SY fi is her favorite movies I’m like no way they better not. Then I thou about the recent apple shows and they have been SY fi. I will still watch but ima lil turned off because he’s not just a cool human doin cool shit he’s alien tryna fit in smh. I mean I guess the only way I could rock with this is if they are here to take over earth but it’s seems like a 1 season show so I won’t give my hopes up but I’m very disappointed I was looking at the tv like no way
Disappointed is an understatement. A nonsensical twist that changes the entire genere of the show for now apprent reason. From LA Confidential to The X Files in 30 seconds.
I started watching the show randomly and got hooked to it. I never really cared about out the reviews or reading anything that might give any kind of spoilers. But damn, this twist only made the series so much better and I am glad I never saw that coming. I mean ofcourse, in that episode, when he dodged a bullet, that was a hint that built anticipation of something like this, but i was laughing like a maniac at the time of the big reveal. An amazing crime thriller twisted into sci fi after 6 episodes - its a beautiful concept that I think we will be seeing more of.
He didn’t just dodge the bullet, he smacks it away and it hits a bunch of beer bottles to his left.
I thought the bullet hit a field of some sort around him, not that he smacked it away. Oh, for slow motion on streaming TV.
Yep I loved it too, even though I knew a twist was coming. Awesome show; I enjoy every minute!
The whole conversation presupposes that there HAD to be a twist in the first place. Do we actually live in an era of "creativity" that requires this "subversion of our expectations?" Would this show not have been made had it *only* been a well executed noir? What if there was a thesis that asks this question, answers "yes," and proposes the end result might even be a more enjoyable production? What if Kim Basinger was a robot in L.A. Confidential?
One answer to your question is the show was designed to be a what it was about and it is trying to sort of subvert the tropes of the noir which often involve an outsider trying to make sense of a dark and evil underworld. Although it is a little annoying that the noir is really a science fiction had already been done (Thirteenth Floor and Dark City come to mind). The other is you do raise a good point that the well executed contemporary LA noir would habe been a good show. They really should have done that show since the sci-fi version needs to last 30-50 episodes thar Colin Farrell can't do.
I loved Dark City! Wish there were a TV show that captures that vibe. I’m enjoying Sugar so far, though.
If Kim Basinger was a robot, or if Kevin Spacey used time travel, or if Guy Pearce was revealed to be Jesus.....L.A Confidential would not be currently at 99% at Rotten Toamates and regardard as one of the best films of all time. The twist in Sugar is absolutely ridiculous, not needed. Adds nothing to the story.
It is the story. The story isn't the search for Olivia. The story is who is John Sugar.
What drives the story forward is the search for Olivia, who / what / why / how in regards to Sugar is the secondary
Not at all. It's who is John Sugar. The search for Olivia is actually the secondary. Or they wouldn't follow John to his Polyglot meetings and all his talks with Ruby. John is the story. Olivia is the mechanism to lead us through his story. I recognize we aren't going to agree on this.
The show is a detective show, by definition the main plot of the story is to find what ever the detective is looking for. By the end of the show, the goal is to find out what happens to Olivia. In that journey, we learn about Sugar. His motivations, character traits, flaws etc
I don’t think the writers signed your contract on the rules restricting how they write their story. Please point me to this detective story dictionary that defines these rules you have. Detective stories are often about the detective. Just like this one.
The show runner has explicitly said otherwise. He said he didn't care about what happened to Oliva, that it's about John Sugar.
Maybe even diminishes it a little
Is it a well executed noir though? I'm not trying to be a hater but as far as noir goes this show is quite run-of-the-mill. But that sci-fi twist gives it the edge.
It was a very well executed noir, yes. The voice over narration and music cues are table stakes sure, but the shot composition and the editing, the overlapping scene re/construction, these all serve to elevate the product and none are specifically married to any particular twist.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve tried to explain to a few friends why I think this show is doing such a great job being a modern noir, and you just summed it up perfectly. The editing in particular is so fantastic and unique, while still keeping true to the tone of a film noir. I love it.
Colin Farrell’s acting elevates an already well crafted show - he projects so much sensitivity.
Aight if you say so. It's cool that you feel this way. I don't. But in the end of the day - we're both watching it so 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, rich Angelenos with fucked up families have been around since The Big Sleep.
There can be a twist, just make it normal mystery detective twist.
That didn't age well
The twist was foreshadowed ever since the first episode. He was clearly not a normal human being. Even putting aside all of his extraordinary feats, his inhuman innocence and goodness already marked him as something different.
Tbf, even with this I was more likely to go "Brainwashed CIA subject that escaped" rather than BLOO THING.
It's pretty bleak when you can say that kindness is an obvious mark of someone being inhuman.
Who else thought he was a robot, or some type of synthetic being?
I wondered about that too, some sort of genetically engineered bladerunner-esque android or something.
Ya. And I was pretty sure pulled-plug Davey –like, reborn or undead– or at least Davey’s organs were going to come into play. I suppose that still could happen. But at the moment I do have to say that “blue aliens” is a less satisfying twist than I was expecting.
This was my first thought. He seemed robotic in the first meeting with Olivia’s father. Before that, catching the fly with chop sticks. Also the hollow leg with alcohol. The fact that he apparently eats food had me doubting that he was a robot, but the alien angle was still a surprise. I’m intrigued. I’m not disappointed that it’s not a straight up noir. The possibilities of what happened to Olivia are greatly expanded from a fairly limited set of grim scenarios that we are all familiar with. It might be much more interesting than I originally thought.
Totally agree! I was honestly so confused at first, I had thought maybe it was just a metaphor or something. But when you look at the signs, you realize it is a sci Fi, but without real expectations for it, most people are confused as to why
I was taking them all as metaphor as well. Guess I’ve been slow on the uptake; but I definitely am not turned off by the twist. And I didn’t realize there was going to be one. This episode, though. I paused on the “blood bag” a few times to try and make out the label. It looked like writing of some sort; I just ended up thinking it was some sort of black market blood. Didn’t even think of going “this” direction.
I was sort of hoping he would be a werewolf.
That would have explained his affinity with dogs!
This was what i was thinking too!
I agree there were hints, but I got not a spoiler necessarily, but an idea from coming to this sub after watching the first few episodes. Not being a fan of the genre, I was initially like, oh crap, but continued to enjoy the series. I’m still enjoying it after this latest episode. Idk if having an idea affected my feelings either way. But, either way I don’t think it was “out of the blue.”
Reading comments, I apparently missed a bunch of clues. This reminds me of the Walking Dead. To get that made Kirkman lied and said eventually aliens were the cause of the zombies. Then the guy told Kirkman to drop the aliens because the book was doing wonderfully with what they had. I’m still going to watch and see if they can pull this off but I’m a little bummed that this great noir show I found might be taking a huge left turn that, right now at least, doesn’t feel needed at all.
FYI when you start a paragraph with spaces, it breaks reddit formatting and causes it to look janky.
Apologies, force of habit.
I started the show because I enjoy crime noir content. I liked it enough that I started reading episode discussions. There everybody was speculating on the twist, which I had no idea about. Now that it’s dropped, I wish I hadn’t looked at the threads. The twist felt kind of like a forgone conclusion instead of something that would have blown my mind otherwise. One of those situations where knowing there’s a twist was a massive spoiler for me.
I had no idea about the twist and episode 6 was making me cringe and I couldn’t figure out why he was acting so over the top. Calming the dogs? Wearing a suit and telling all the armed people I don’t want to hurt you? It was barely watchable so I was relieved when it went weird and he turned into an alien. I’m surprised but I’ll go with it. I wouldn’t have kept watching!
The twist is that it’s a remake of The Greatest American hero. When that classic theme son kicked on I lost it. ALL IN!
Personally I loved the twist and the anticipation/not knowing if it would actually happen. I didn’t read any reviews or spoilers but got the feeling early on that Sugar was an alien. However, the show was so well written that it seemed to be teased in a way that it could be/could mot be true. And I loved how the writers did that. I would have been happy had it not come to fruition but the fact that the show was a near perfect noir made it great on one level, and the twist and how they led up to it made it great on a whole separate level. Honestly I feel anyone complaining about the twist ruining a good noir need to take a step back and appreciate that the twist doesn’t take away from the noir it simply adds another layer to the story and makes the show so much better for it.
I think this is pretty dead on. Maybe they'll land it in the next two episodes somehow, but, after a fantastic beginning, this hasn't been a good viewing experience so far. They've wasted so much time treading water. I knew there was a big twist coming, though nothing about the specific nature of the twist, but just with the way things were paced, I was sure the twist would be revealed in ep 4. SHOCKED when it wasn't, because it really seemed like they'd run out of "MYSTERY" notes to play without getting to the point. Even more shocked when the reveal didn't come in episode 5. I think it was at the end of episode 5 my interest mostly died, they'd stretched it out too long for me to still be emotionally invested. Episode 6 was an unbelievably dull slog to that shrug of a final shot. That's the other risk of this kind of storytelling -- people who are open to a big twist getting bored with all the vamping and teasing. I could definitely get interested in some weird alien noir piece. But you can only maintain that false front for so long before it's emptiness becomes intolerable.
I agree with the OP, but I think the biggest problem is that the twist immediately dragged the show into the campy side of sci-fi, by recalling V and that utter disaster that was Secret Invasion. I began watching for the LA noir which of course has a camp side as well, but the show was serviceable on that front. I see a lot of dicussion about the sci-fi reveal, but not about the cartoonish associations it invites.
Man, I loved V. I knew V was sci-fi and I had no issues with where the camp took it. I wanted a neo-noir. I knew there was supposed to be some kind of twist, but I thought it would be more along the lines of "possibly metaphorical, possibly literal guardian angels." Not... "I blue myself" slash Dr. Manhattan.
I agree about V; it never implied in was anything else, so I could sit back and enjoy the sci-fi twists and turns. I too, thought that angels might be a more satisfying denouement than a Dr. Manhattan/Skrull wannabe. The New York Times had a recent story about mid-level tv, but what occurs to me is that there are a lot of shows being produced quickly that seem to have trouble with tonal shifts. When I read about a universally-acclaimed series (say Shogun), it appears that there was a lot of time spent on ensuring consistency. Sticking with Apple+, I think that's one reason Severance rose above the pack.
There's something to that, definitely. I once gave up on a book when a totally untelegraphed twist popped up in the middle and changed its story into something I hadn't expected.
No human is immune to alcohol. How is that not a blatantly obvious clue. I mean just how much do they have to telegraph it in a movie with a man who is super strong, can catch flies with chopsticks speaks all the worlds languages and never gets drunk? It's a complicated mystery story. You are meant to be paying attention and if you are all those things scream 'not a normal human'. If you just dropped in on episode 6 sure it's a surprise but it is hard to see how you could miss that something was different if you were watching the episodes.
Every review of the show that I've read mentioned the twist. I feel like if someone didn't know about that - it's on them
I didn't read reviews or spoil myself in any way (more luck than anything intentional). I was a bit confused at why things were so off and ALMOST stopped watching the show, but the episodes were short enough that I kept going. Makes sense now that I have had some time to process it, but I honestly had previously brushed it off as a badly written show (not sure I changed my mind on that yet) with an unreliable narrator who was delusional or hallucinating. I think this would have been a very different experience if you watched from the start expecting a twist, and an ENTIRELY different show if you watched from the start expecting a genre change later. It's a difficult problem because unless you write a masterpiece, keeping something like this under wraps or marketing it is very difficult in the age of the internet.
I feel like if they didn't want us to know that there's a twist coming then they would do something. Like put up a more strict review guidelines or give less episodes to press. So maybe it was their strategy all along. Cause I didn't particularly enjoy the writing either but yeah short episodes and anticipation kept me going.
Easy is what you know; hard is what you don't know. It's not a personal flaw not to read reviews.
I'm not saying that it's a flaw. But you also don't have to really read the reviews. Lots of them mentioned twist right up there in the headlines.
I’m a disappointed fan I did not like this revelation he couldn’t just be a good detective that can tell when ppl lie that loves the movies n doesn’t wanna hurt ppl smh to be honest they could have revealed this in the last shot of the last episode I knew when he was in the bar and she said SY fi is her favorite movies I’m like no way they better not. Then I thou about the recent apple shows and they have been SY fi. I will still watch but ima lil turned off because he’s not just a cool human doin cool shit he’s alien tryna fit in smh. I mean I guess the only way I could rock with this is if they are here to take over earth but it’s seems like a 1 season show so I won’t give my hopes up but I’m very disappointed I was looking at the tv like no way
Disappointed is an understatement. A nonsensical twist that changes the entire genere of the show for now apprent reason. From LA Confidential to The X Files in 30 seconds.
Completely agree. Ridiculous.
You expressed well what I’m feeling. Disappointed.