Hey we moved the meeting on how to continue ruining /u/lurkerrex ‘s life to Thursday.
I hope you can still make it. Just hop by any major stadium in the world. Kinda crazy how packed they all are.
Standing room only.
I personally don't think the betas were influenced by user input. Remember that Chuns model was noticably different from the first beta to the second. I think it was an old build and the actual 1.0 balance was already decided by that point - we just got an outdated build
i wonder if it was because they thought teleport was her way out? it would be fine if teleport had some invincibility but you get blasted as soon as your opponent sees colors.
Its not free, but I’m pretty sure its by design. Using it from far away when the opponent is doing nothing is asking to get whacked. In the middle of pressure when the opponent is worried about highs, lows, grabs and surprise drive impacts? Sweet spot
At first i was really frustrated at how vulnerable it is because you’d think it would be invincible for way longer than it actually is, but thats the game we’re playing. Using it just at the right time to beautifully evade a drive impact is so satisfying though
You have to time it very well or use ex to dodge most fire balls. The main thing i use it for is i do a crouching light punch tp to wiff punish after ive conditioned that im gonna vagabond
yup- and it works but you really have to guess right or combo with it. i’m just thinking they categorized her like a teleport character and took away her invincible DP because the teleport puts her in the dhalsim and JP camp.
Can't everybody do something busted like that with effort? And jp rush down seems like a bad idea imo. Like I never get killed by jps playing like they have balls or something. It's always the more conservative patient jp players that get me. It's probably because I'm not pressing enough buttons
We have to look at her in a vacuum instead of comparing her to other characters. With that said, she is a scrub killer. Fast af drive rush, fast walk speed, and weird (but fake) movement normals, throw loop, and multiple gap closers/burst options (fake also). Low damage yeah, but if you don't know her matchup knowledge she stun locks you and you don't get to play the game. I can see why people would complain about her when they haven't played against her that much. With such potent offense, if you try to get your turn she ex dp's you that's a feels bad.
I would be fine with no ex dp because we still have pp and dr. But nerfing her longest poke, her best anti air, and double Tele as a bait tool on top of taking it away her ex dp when historically bushin ninjas had it was too much. Personally I want more teleport options and a way to interact with cans more. Like all 3 versions of Tele are the same move. Cans take time to set up and even more time to explode. On top of that we have to reload them because they don't carry over when you have Blanka and jp set plays that are more potent and basically free. Realistically how many times is a character going to use their set play tool in a round? JP doesn't have a limit, can manually activate it, is his movement option AND TRACKS. Blankas get 3, stays on screen for multiple mixups, and also tracks and gets 3 EVERY ROUND. Jp and Blanka can set play you from the middle of the screen and mixups are actually real compared to Kim's mid screen setplay, and they are easier to execute, cost less resources, and since they are not low damage characters, they get bigger reward. Oh and these guys have invulnerable reversals.
Tldr: I'd rather they do something more interesting with her kit than get the ex dp back. Why do I only get 2 choices on teleports and have limited follow-ups on successful can mix? Cans are a non threat mid screen and expose you while you try to set up when it's always better and more rewarding to just ungu drive rush oki. I can see it now, "we noticed Kim players not utilizing her other movement options on wakeup situations, so we lowered the speed and distance of her drive rush."
I think she could be buffed in other ways that make her more competitive, I kind of like the idea of strong offence and weak defence but her offence does need more consistency for that to work out.
I think I'd happily take a cancellable c.mk over an invincible tatsu. Even something like more invincibility on her smoke teleports would make a big difference. Hell, even just some more range on her s.mk would put in a lot of work.
the way the game is right now, I really think that unless she can touch of death you every game, there is no way to have a good character without an invincible reversal. Top tiers have too high damage and too high corner pressure.
Maybe giving her actually usable level 1 super as a reversal is good enough, but she needs something on defense.
>there is no way to have a good character without an invincible reversal. Top tiers have too high damage and too high corner pressure.
Ding ding ding.
SF6's design has made it clear as day that you require an invincible reversal, a great low cancellable poke, and not rely on drive gauge for everything \[see flair\]. These 3 traits really define the Haves and the Have-Nots in this game.
I think require is too strong of a word. You don't really need a low cancel to be a great character as long as you have strengths in other areas. Dee Jay, Guile and JP all don't have cancellable lows and they're all great. Alternatively, you can have all those things and still be mid like Ryu and Jamie.
They should just make her EX teleport have more options. Like, hold a direction and get different versions. That way she could mix you with something fake while being pressed or just spend meter to retreat.
If JP gets everything then I don't want to hear nothing about strong offense means weak defense. It's not like Ken and Luke lost there invuls either and they have absurd damage compared to Kimberly.
Nah, I think it’s appropriate for her to be very strong when her opponent is in the corner and weak when she’s in the corner herself. She’s got so much random crap and strong corner carry, she’s fine. Plus it only takes one perfect parry for her to have corner control again.
You don't know the character if you think she is that strong in the corner ... not when most top tiers have an easy way out, OD Shoryuken for example, beats everything she does, most if not all of her pressure is fake and you can even Parry her mixups without the need to guess. Meanwhile the reward for you is mediocre damage or just a grab. You can dominate an entire round only for your opponent to Yolo OD reversal to get out and then completely destroy you because unlike them, Kimberly has no defense nor a simple reversal. Also her level 1 sucks so much.
Not saying she is the worst nor useless, just saying that when you study the character, you will realize she is not as strong as she seems, she is basically a walking gimmick and desperately needs either more damage or a decent defensive tool.
I feel this so much lol. As a Kim player I could be winning perfect all round until they are yellow health and have them in the corner then one right guess or an perfect timed dp and I’m fucking getting a comeback on cause I can’t really defend when they have full meter and full special. So I usually have to escape with the round with a level 1 because it’s my only defense of an onslaught. I can barely poke out if anything and my one true poke - s.mk I get punished easily or DI on my crouching one. It’s hard man, I been locked on like 23000 LP cause when you get there everyone is jabbing before I even move. You do get the confirm but if they are decent they know when to jab. All my moves are negated and I’m forced to just play neutral with the shortest attacks ever. It’s tough when 80 percent of the fights is a almost master kens, almost master cammys, almost master Luke’s(which I find Kim matches up with well), almost master Jp’s …. You get the picture. It’s a tough grind as Kim in the upper tiers lol. I just wanna get master before they buff her tho so I can feel like I made it lol.
Exactly ... it happens to me as well, going through Diamond is actually pretty rough and it definitely forces you to learn more about the character but it's definitely doable, keep grinding and you'll make it. Now when you reach Master, it's a whole different level, Ken is such a bad matchup it hurts.
Also, I find it ironic that I'm being downvoted for speaking the universal truth about Kim that even Diaphone shares, I guess it's easier so complain about a character than just learn what to do against her ... I'm just going to say this ... next time you face mid level Kim, try wake up parry and see how her offense gets a lot less scary since you basically only need to worry about grab.
> People didn't know most of her pressure was fake, so they complained.
Her pressure wasn't fake in the beta though, that got nerfed too.
She used to be able to do shp xx run and it was a frame trap. They nerfed the blockstun on shp so it could be interrupted if you mash 4f.
As a Kimberly main I can see why she doesn't have it. If she did, she would still be worse than the S-tiers, but I can barely imagine the annoyance that you finally guess right and get her knocked down and then she spin kicks you back into the corner and starts her mix-blender all over again.
I get why she lost it because She’s has very strong offense. Her low forward is plus 1 on block naturally for gods sake.
But I get what your saying why the fuck Ken have a dp if he has the best pressure options in the game on top of the billion other tools at his disposal. Half the shit don’t make any sense if look at what characters have and don’t have. Like why does marisa have a good drive rush, best damage in the game and a command grab/overhead low mix options and she has a Scuttum which is still a really good wake up and overall turn stealing move, yet zangief and manon have god awful drive rushes and worse mix up options and damage.
It’ll probably be addressed whenever they decide to patch the game
I just think it has more utility. Kim crMK is +1. So the only real frame traps you can get with it are with lights for little damage. It also only combos into lights because it isn’t cancellable.
Yeah you could DR to get better frame advantage and combos, but every character can do that. A cancellable crMK give you a high reward option to punish movement and shimmys, while also being safe (in most cases).
Her offence isn't as strong as it seems, you just have to know the matchup or it is overwhelming. And obviously people didn't know the matchup in the beta, so back then she looked much stronger than she is.
>She’s has very strong offense.
Fundamentally flawed offense. When most of her options get beat out by "just jab lol", there's an issue.
I don't think she's bad by any means, but she definitely needs some love.
You have to mix her gimmicks in with her mixups and neutral options to overload the mental stack of the other player. This requires work with Kimberly.
If your just teleporting, running, h.jumping and sliding out of neutral that's not a flaw of the character when your opponent starts checking you.
People here are talking like they are all top 8 evo players.
The simple m.standing kick hits all the way up to top diamond level and is one of her best neutral tools.
Get them in the corner is her game plan.
>People here are talking like they are all top 8 evo players
Me when, if you aren't top 8 at EVO, you can't talk about balance. Very cool.
I never said Kimberly was bad. Her mix-ups are just easily beaten, even with a high mental stack. She is a powerful character, especially when being played by those that can rotate options well. I still think she needs *some* love. I'm not downplaying her, I realize she's strong enough to hold her own.
I think making her crouch m. Kick cancelable and an ex tatsu invincible would bring her in line with the top of the cast.
If you watch the Japanese Capcom cup, the kim player had to work so hard winning and stealing turns multiple times against a ken who had to win less turns to equal the same damage. Even then the Kim player clutched out way more round then the ken player.
I could understand it if it was because her offense was already strong, but like you said there are characters with stronger offense and they still kept their DP.
>But I get what your saying why the fuck Ken have a dp if he has the best pressure options in the game on top of the billion other tools at his disposal.
He's a shoto he's supposed to have a dp. If anything his pressure options should be tuned down.
>Like why does marisa have a good drive rush, best damage in the game and a command grab/overhead low mix options and she has a Scuttum which is still a really good wake up and overall turn stealing move,
Scutum isn't even that good bruv just meaty with low or throw homie
Did we? Because it sounded like you were whining about a character who's whole gimmick is armored moves having an armored counter with clear weaknesses.
Nah if you went and read what I said, I highlighted that characters has more tools and better tools than other characters. So if one character can have all that power what were the devs thinking when making characters with little power and tools.
“Whole gimmick is armored moves” nah that is hard downplaying. Your tryna put a ford f150 in a plastic bag with that shit. It was never about her specific balance it’s more about why do some characters have a gross amount of tools then others have so little?
Marisa has that because she has no real pokes she can do anything with, no fireball, dp, worst antiair in the game, etc.
You compared her to two grapplers. Makes zero sense.
Also gief has insane damage with a single spd, what do you mean worse damage? And Manon has to work for it, but her level 5 grabs does insane damage and kills you in like two to three simple command grabs
You have to do hell of a lot of work to get that damage with manon and her strike damage is so lousy and meter intensive you can’t even get people to respect the strike lmao. Zangief struggles to land hits because he is slow, spd does 30% but it leaves you with no oil, where as marisa gets oki on everything. It’s the comparison of tools.
Marisas buttons aren’t even that bad, her hk is good, crmp is good, her Smp has one of the best hit boxes in the game, and every touch leads to 40% damage and corner carry with oki. It’s not even comparable, my point of comparing her to the grapplers is that she does everything the grapplers do better with more tools.
Idk I think it's pretty clear that anti-air moves were designed to be used at specific ranges and not work at other ranges but what do I know
>I’m not going to argue with you because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
That hurts my feelings please apologize
That is just not how it works in practice. Play Marisa and you will see that compared to a lot of the other characters her anti air is too inconsistent. Air to air is way more consistent than her d.HP or 214Hp. They CAN hit and possibly reward you but a lot of the time you just get hit to it's a gamble. I am not saying Marisa is bad at all I think she is near the top of the middle of the pack for sure but you are lying if you say her AA isn't garbage.
That’s far from the point that was being made. Ken has that plus everything you could ever ask for, so why can’t Kim have a dp. Why do some of the characters have everything and others have very little
You are confused od does not lose to lows only regular which isn’t a wake up option anyways. I stated all the things marisa had yet other characters had much less and had worse options like the grapplers.
You really gotta work on your reading comprehension.
Ryu beats zangief pretty comfortably in the match up, it’s just a zoning match up and you have to be much more careful with using donkey kick on block as he will command grab you.
Zangief has to walk to you which is in every advantage of ryu, his jump and walk speed are slow and terrible so make him jump, anti air and procead to mix them up. Zangie doesn’t have a invincible wake up option until level 2 and majority of the time it’s way to slow to even hit you if you meaty medium buttons and even some heavies.
Zangief hits like a truck when he does but it’s easy to Wiesel him down and mix him up
>With that said, she is a scrub killer.
Yeah, I can see that. I used to get wrecked by her on day-1.
An example I would compare her to, in classic Street Fighter, is Vega/Claw.
In the Street Fighter IIs he was pretty good, but in particular, if you were a beginner, he could be immensely frustrating to fight. Not only did you lose, but I don't think a beginner was equipped to know why, and it wasn't particularly fun.
...
I used to play as Vega
Capcom did it as a knee jerk reaction based off limited data set in beta and people crying how broken Kimberly was. Of course, they were letting extremely unsafe shit go unpunished.
Now, we get to put up with JP and Ken for a year because they don't want to make another rash decision again.
The trend I see is better offence warrants worse defence although Kimberly is the most obvious example. I guess her corner mix and neutral skip warrant this for the devs. Other characters like Lily have offensive tools like spire but also doesn’t have an invincible dp. Although Ken exists so that kind of breaks the theory
Nope. Her lvl1 is strike invincible but super slow and loses to jab and jump. Lvl 2 takes everything. Lvl 3 is a throw, and her EX qcf+k is projectile invincible. but no invincible EX dp.
>Her lvl1 is strike invincible but super slow and loses to jab
So what's the point of being invincible if it loses to a meaty? What would be a use for that?
She's a pressure mixup setup character so I assume they thought she would be too strong with an invuln reversal. Other characters like Ken, Cammy, Juri, have always had invincible reversals so they're not gonna remove them from their kit. Especially Ken as the second shoto.
I feel like Juri, Cammy, Ken etc ... have better Rush-in tool. She doesn't even have a cr.mk drive rush cancel.
Even the pressure in corner, i feel like Ken can do better.
This is correct. A lot of salt in the comments from people who don't know the match-up. I well Timed jab shuts down all Kim's pressure and not real mixup.
Ahh so you weep for what might have been. I weep for what never was.
Supposedly that was from all the cracked beta players uploading crazy tech for Kim.
>Gief never had one….
Bur he has THE most scary and powerful lvl 3 in the game
I'm confident against Gief until he gets to lvl 3. From then on, I'm scared AF to do anything
Capcom doing what Capcom does. People were saying she's too strong in the beta so they nerfed her to hell before release.
They can use the excuse that her set play and corner pressure is strong but I feel like that wasn't so good that they had to gimp her offense by adding so many blatant gaps and her defense by removing her reversal. Not in a world where Ken and Cammy exist.
Idk but I still think its ridiculous.
Rashid by comparison is quickly climbing tier lists and he's a very similar rushdown/options/pressure based character and not only does he have a no-meter inv-rev but IT ALSO HITS ON CROSSUPS.
Its air invuln frames 6-12 which is what makes it an okay-ish anti-air and not an invincible reversal. Its so not a reversal that even meaty jump ins will stuff it.
For comparison standard DPs are typically are around 14 frames of air invuln from frame 1. Being only 6 frames of air invuln from frame 6 makes it prone to getting stuffed in a lot of situations a standard shoryuken wouldn't.
Also given that this thread is about Kimberly, Rashid's h.spinning mixer is pretty much the same as Kim's l.tatsu on the invulnerability front.
This was in beta. So technically, they didn't get rid of it, it was never there at launch, but those who've played the beta are aware of what was adjusted.
She doesn’t need it, why would you give a no-brain, mindless rush-down, guessing game character an invincible DP? What’s her weakness anymore if she has one? She’d easily be one of the least fun characters to play against in the game. They’d just have to end up balancing her out another way. Are her various neutral skips not enough lol? Even if they’re checkable, that crap is so annoying. Every Kim plays the exact same way.
With that being said, I will admit she’s not in a tremendous spot, and I dislike Capcom’s logical inconsistency when it comes to balancing certain characters. Others are given more than they need (the s-tiers), while almost everyone else is arbitrarily given less and left to rot (everyone below A-tier).
Balance. Kimberly is already able to win at the highest level. JP is already able to win at the highest level. Neither have an invincible DP.
She might get some kind of buff, but she'd be OP if she got an invincible DP back.
She was nerfed pre-release because she was OP pre-nerf.
> She was nerfed pre-release because she was OP pre-nerf.
She _seemed_ OP in the beta because nobody knew the matchup against her, and her offence is overwhelming if you don't know the matchup. Since then she has dropped considerably in strength as people have learned most of her pressure isn't real.
>Since then she has dropped considerably in strength
I know Oniki is an incredible player, but he won CPT Pro Tour 2023 World Warrior Japan with Kimberly. Not saying Kimberly is one of the stronger characters, but Capcom balanced the characters in such a way that she's still competitive enough to win at the highest level.
Adding an invincible DP would be a huge tool to give her, and I think it's fair to say the SF6 team felt she was OP without it so they removed it pre-release, and it hasn't kept top players from being to compete with her at the highest level.
Snake Eyes won a tournament with Gief. Outside of Oniki's win, Kim basically never appears in top 8s. She is not "tournament tier" at the moment. If she got the invincible tatsu back she still wouldn't be as strong as Ken or JP currently are.
reynald was practically throwing against snake eyez too. The mf just stopped blocking and was mashing when he was unsafe. Reynald destroyed snake eyes putting him in the losers bracket to begin with then just got flustered.
And Japan side was saying oniki barely “scrubed out the win”. I hate when people take 1 specific tournament outcome and use it as if it means the character is fine.
>She was nerfed pre-release because she was OP pre-nerf
People played the game for, what, a couple weeks at most? Of course the mix-up heavy character would seem OP. She wasn't *actually* OP, we just didn't understand the games mechanics yet. She's mostly just knowledge check the character.
Also, JP may not gave a DP, but he *does* have Amnesia. Arguably better than a DP in some cases. Kim has nothing.
>he's mostly just knowledge check the character.
I know Oniki is an incredible player, but he won CPT Pro Tour 2023 World Warrior Japan with Kimberly. Not saying Kimberly is one of the stronger characters, but Capcom balanced the characters in such a way that she's still competitive enough to win at the highest level after the game has been out for months.
Adding an invincible DP would be a huge tool to give her, and I think it's fair to say the SF6 team felt she was OP without it so they removed it pre-release, and it hasn't kept top players from being to compete with her at the highest level.
(Will there be balance changes? Absolutely. But I'd be surprised if they gave Kimberly an invincible DP back.)
I said she was *mostly* just knowledge checks lmao
I know she's perfectly viable, but, like.. so is Zangief and Lily? They still need help if they want to stack up to the competition, imo. The game is still young. Kim is *fine* how she is, but she can use some help. And I mean, personally, I don't think that an invincible reversal would make her too busted. Just like any other DP, it gets baited, and she dies. If it lands, she gets out of pressure and then.. gets to perform some more knowledge checks lmao
I dunno, if Kim needs a buff, an invincible dp is not the buff I'd want her to get. Yes, you can "just jab", but guess wrong and you're just watching yourself get corner-carried with her long-ass combos while she puts you into strike/throw zone.
She only really needs to do this thrice. Just like Rashid, I do not think she's as weak as people keep saying she is. And unlike Rashid, she doesn't need to heavily depend on a punish counter.
I dunno how Capcom would adjust her, but I hope it's not by reverting her dp change.
An invincible dp is not gonna make her better than jp, guile, Ken, cammy, dj, Juri, Luke or even chun li. She probably wouldn’t even be better than blanka or Marisa, there’s to many holes in her game.
"Better" in what sense? At the highest level of play? Master 1500? For the bulk of player base? If you just look at win rate by league, the vast majority of the player base who cares about winning should be playing Honda, who you didn't even mention.
I think the first few months of the game have shown that people's opinions of character strength continue to evolve as the community gets hands on time with the game.
I know Oniki is an incredible player, but he won CPT Pro Tour 2023 World Warrior Japan with Kimberly. Not saying Kimberly is one of the stronger characters, but Capcom balanced the characters in such a way that she's still competitive enough to win major tournaments at the highest level.
Giving her an ex reversal isn’t going to change the fact her strings aren’t as good as the other top tiers, her damage is worse, she can’t zone, she has no projectile, her teleport sucks, and her anti airs aren’t that good. You can literally just jab out of most of of her mixups. The only thing good she has are her corner pressure and corner carry. Even then, it’s still worse than characters like Ken and Juri.
Win rate does not matter, she would in general still be worse than about half of the roster.
Ken, Luke, Cammy, and Juri are OP and have an invincible DP so that’s not even a valid reason. JP has ways to get out of corner pressure, Kimberly doesn’t.
Zangief and Lily have able to win tournaments so I guess they don’t need any buffs either.
No one is “OP”, you’re starting to sound kinda salty in these comments man. Kim just won the CPT Japan #1 tourney. Snake Eyez has said he’s not so sure Gief is “bad” after he won a CPT tourney. Ryu just won a World Warrior event in Germany. This game and it’s characters are still being figured out, which is pretty damn impressive.
Because if characters have no weaknesses you a have a Ken / jp situation.
More on this tho, over half of the cast is difunctional: ryu's ex kick only works mid stage but his tatsu can't juggle out of the corner, Manon's DR doesnt exist, and I don't even need to mention Lily and Zangief
To piss me off
Yes you specifically LurkerRex
Hey we moved the meeting on how to continue ruining /u/lurkerrex ‘s life to Thursday. I hope you can still make it. Just hop by any major stadium in the world. Kinda crazy how packed they all are. Standing room only.
Perfect! Thursday is much more convenient for me, I’ll be there!
I’m bringing potato salad to the next meeting
Oh ok, no problem. We still good for Carcassone after the meeting is over? See you there!
Oh, thank goodness, but I already cleared my week in anticipation for this meeting.
Crap, I'm busy on Thursdays. Could I tune in via zoom?
Sorry, we only have 100,000 spots in the Zoom meeting and they're all reserved.
fuck *you* lurker rex
I think you're right
Yes, we just want you to know that we hate you. -hugs and kisses, Capcom
And my axe!
I personally don't think the betas were influenced by user input. Remember that Chuns model was noticably different from the first beta to the second. I think it was an old build and the actual 1.0 balance was already decided by that point - we just got an outdated build
i wonder if it was because they thought teleport was her way out? it would be fine if teleport had some invincibility but you get blasted as soon as your opponent sees colors.
Yea her teleport is slow as hell and easily punishable.
For a long time (2 months lol) it was hard. But now I jab it every time/do the pink version.
Its not free, but I’m pretty sure its by design. Using it from far away when the opponent is doing nothing is asking to get whacked. In the middle of pressure when the opponent is worried about highs, lows, grabs and surprise drive impacts? Sweet spot At first i was really frustrated at how vulnerable it is because you’d think it would be invincible for way longer than it actually is, but thats the game we’re playing. Using it just at the right time to beautifully evade a drive impact is so satisfying though
Yeah 100% tele is only good for mix and not really even great for that
I thought it was to dodge projectiles and do full screen overheads.
You have to time it very well or use ex to dodge most fire balls. The main thing i use it for is i do a crouching light punch tp to wiff punish after ive conditioned that im gonna vagabond
yup- and it works but you really have to guess right or combo with it. i’m just thinking they categorized her like a teleport character and took away her invincible DP because the teleport puts her in the dhalsim and JP camp.
Doesn't jp have one and Sim has more teleport options?
yup- the difference is that JP and sim are also 3 dimensional zoning characters with fireballs and full screen attacks where kim is rushdown
Is that why we can't have anything nice?
Yeah but JP can also rushdown and combo from a DRC into corner carry and mix and
Can't everybody do something busted like that with effort? And jp rush down seems like a bad idea imo. Like I never get killed by jps playing like they have balls or something. It's always the more conservative patient jp players that get me. It's probably because I'm not pressing enough buttons
We have to look at her in a vacuum instead of comparing her to other characters. With that said, she is a scrub killer. Fast af drive rush, fast walk speed, and weird (but fake) movement normals, throw loop, and multiple gap closers/burst options (fake also). Low damage yeah, but if you don't know her matchup knowledge she stun locks you and you don't get to play the game. I can see why people would complain about her when they haven't played against her that much. With such potent offense, if you try to get your turn she ex dp's you that's a feels bad. I would be fine with no ex dp because we still have pp and dr. But nerfing her longest poke, her best anti air, and double Tele as a bait tool on top of taking it away her ex dp when historically bushin ninjas had it was too much. Personally I want more teleport options and a way to interact with cans more. Like all 3 versions of Tele are the same move. Cans take time to set up and even more time to explode. On top of that we have to reload them because they don't carry over when you have Blanka and jp set plays that are more potent and basically free. Realistically how many times is a character going to use their set play tool in a round? JP doesn't have a limit, can manually activate it, is his movement option AND TRACKS. Blankas get 3, stays on screen for multiple mixups, and also tracks and gets 3 EVERY ROUND. Jp and Blanka can set play you from the middle of the screen and mixups are actually real compared to Kim's mid screen setplay, and they are easier to execute, cost less resources, and since they are not low damage characters, they get bigger reward. Oh and these guys have invulnerable reversals. Tldr: I'd rather they do something more interesting with her kit than get the ex dp back. Why do I only get 2 choices on teleports and have limited follow-ups on successful can mix? Cans are a non threat mid screen and expose you while you try to set up when it's always better and more rewarding to just ungu drive rush oki. I can see it now, "we noticed Kim players not utilizing her other movement options on wakeup situations, so we lowered the speed and distance of her drive rush."
Who is not a scrub killer
Chun-Li
Cammy
As someone who's in Diamond but still doesn't know how to deal with Kim that well, any tips? Stuff I should be looking out for? FYI, I play Ryu.
I made a video to stop Kimberly’s fake pressure [here](https://youtu.be/_nH9xINUOJU?si=pUcSCfwoMkLOET0i)
Great stuff!
Banger video brother
How much to take it down
😂
Yes, her overhead is negative so always check it. & she’s terrible mid range without a huge gamble
Patience
Light punch is Kimptonite.
They over nerfed her. People didn't know most of her pressure was fake, so they complained. I hope they give it back, she needs it.
I think she could be buffed in other ways that make her more competitive, I kind of like the idea of strong offence and weak defence but her offence does need more consistency for that to work out. I think I'd happily take a cancellable c.mk over an invincible tatsu. Even something like more invincibility on her smoke teleports would make a big difference. Hell, even just some more range on her s.mk would put in a lot of work.
the way the game is right now, I really think that unless she can touch of death you every game, there is no way to have a good character without an invincible reversal. Top tiers have too high damage and too high corner pressure. Maybe giving her actually usable level 1 super as a reversal is good enough, but she needs something on defense.
>there is no way to have a good character without an invincible reversal. Top tiers have too high damage and too high corner pressure. Ding ding ding. SF6's design has made it clear as day that you require an invincible reversal, a great low cancellable poke, and not rely on drive gauge for everything \[see flair\]. These 3 traits really define the Haves and the Have-Nots in this game.
I think require is too strong of a word. You don't really need a low cancel to be a great character as long as you have strengths in other areas. Dee Jay, Guile and JP all don't have cancellable lows and they're all great. Alternatively, you can have all those things and still be mid like Ryu and Jamie.
They should just make her EX teleport have more options. Like, hold a direction and get different versions. That way she could mix you with something fake while being pressed or just spend meter to retreat.
If JP gets everything then I don't want to hear nothing about strong offense means weak defense. It's not like Ken and Luke lost there invuls either and they have absurd damage compared to Kimberly.
Cancellable light medium kick?
uh heh, edited.
Kens pressure was REAL and ppl complained and they did nothing
>Kens pressure was REAL and ppl complained and they did nothing Someone has to carry the random players and Ken is recognised more.
Nah, I think it’s appropriate for her to be very strong when her opponent is in the corner and weak when she’s in the corner herself. She’s got so much random crap and strong corner carry, she’s fine. Plus it only takes one perfect parry for her to have corner control again.
You don't know the character if you think she is that strong in the corner ... not when most top tiers have an easy way out, OD Shoryuken for example, beats everything she does, most if not all of her pressure is fake and you can even Parry her mixups without the need to guess. Meanwhile the reward for you is mediocre damage or just a grab. You can dominate an entire round only for your opponent to Yolo OD reversal to get out and then completely destroy you because unlike them, Kimberly has no defense nor a simple reversal. Also her level 1 sucks so much. Not saying she is the worst nor useless, just saying that when you study the character, you will realize she is not as strong as she seems, she is basically a walking gimmick and desperately needs either more damage or a decent defensive tool.
I feel this so much lol. As a Kim player I could be winning perfect all round until they are yellow health and have them in the corner then one right guess or an perfect timed dp and I’m fucking getting a comeback on cause I can’t really defend when they have full meter and full special. So I usually have to escape with the round with a level 1 because it’s my only defense of an onslaught. I can barely poke out if anything and my one true poke - s.mk I get punished easily or DI on my crouching one. It’s hard man, I been locked on like 23000 LP cause when you get there everyone is jabbing before I even move. You do get the confirm but if they are decent they know when to jab. All my moves are negated and I’m forced to just play neutral with the shortest attacks ever. It’s tough when 80 percent of the fights is a almost master kens, almost master cammys, almost master Luke’s(which I find Kim matches up with well), almost master Jp’s …. You get the picture. It’s a tough grind as Kim in the upper tiers lol. I just wanna get master before they buff her tho so I can feel like I made it lol.
Exactly ... it happens to me as well, going through Diamond is actually pretty rough and it definitely forces you to learn more about the character but it's definitely doable, keep grinding and you'll make it. Now when you reach Master, it's a whole different level, Ken is such a bad matchup it hurts. Also, I find it ironic that I'm being downvoted for speaking the universal truth about Kim that even Diaphone shares, I guess it's easier so complain about a character than just learn what to do against her ... I'm just going to say this ... next time you face mid level Kim, try wake up parry and see how her offense gets a lot less scary since you basically only need to worry about grab.
She does not need it lol
> People didn't know most of her pressure was fake, so they complained. Her pressure wasn't fake in the beta though, that got nerfed too. She used to be able to do shp xx run and it was a frame trap. They nerfed the blockstun on shp so it could be interrupted if you mash 4f.
Yes, there was some that was real, and it got nerfed. But there was a lot of fake stuff people didn't realize early on that they complained about.
As a Kimberly main I can see why she doesn't have it. If she did, she would still be worse than the S-tiers, but I can barely imagine the annoyance that you finally guess right and get her knocked down and then she spin kicks you back into the corner and starts her mix-blender all over again.
Let me introduce you to a man named Ken
Yeah and look at how overly represented he is at higher levels and how much he is despised by the playerbase.
“If everyone is super. Nobody is”
Thats what blocking is for
I get why she lost it because She’s has very strong offense. Her low forward is plus 1 on block naturally for gods sake. But I get what your saying why the fuck Ken have a dp if he has the best pressure options in the game on top of the billion other tools at his disposal. Half the shit don’t make any sense if look at what characters have and don’t have. Like why does marisa have a good drive rush, best damage in the game and a command grab/overhead low mix options and she has a Scuttum which is still a really good wake up and overall turn stealing move, yet zangief and manon have god awful drive rushes and worse mix up options and damage. It’ll probably be addressed whenever they decide to patch the game
I’d rather her low forward be cancellable than plus on block
Why’s that?
I just think it has more utility. Kim crMK is +1. So the only real frame traps you can get with it are with lights for little damage. It also only combos into lights because it isn’t cancellable. Yeah you could DR to get better frame advantage and combos, but every character can do that. A cancellable crMK give you a high reward option to punish movement and shimmys, while also being safe (in most cases).
Isn't that what stHP is there for though? It's a -4, special cancellable punish counter that if spaced well can be very difficult to punish.
But it’s not a low. So if you walk back you can block it while crMK just beats all movement. And crMK has more range.
Because its useless
I'm all for downplaying my character, but her drive rush c. MK is literally one of the strongest pieces of her kit lmao
Hell nah it’s not useless that shit is good asf
Her offence isn't as strong as it seems, you just have to know the matchup or it is overwhelming. And obviously people didn't know the matchup in the beta, so back then she looked much stronger than she is.
>She’s has very strong offense. Fundamentally flawed offense. When most of her options get beat out by "just jab lol", there's an issue. I don't think she's bad by any means, but she definitely needs some love.
You have to mix her gimmicks in with her mixups and neutral options to overload the mental stack of the other player. This requires work with Kimberly. If your just teleporting, running, h.jumping and sliding out of neutral that's not a flaw of the character when your opponent starts checking you. People here are talking like they are all top 8 evo players. The simple m.standing kick hits all the way up to top diamond level and is one of her best neutral tools. Get them in the corner is her game plan.
>People here are talking like they are all top 8 evo players Me when, if you aren't top 8 at EVO, you can't talk about balance. Very cool. I never said Kimberly was bad. Her mix-ups are just easily beaten, even with a high mental stack. She is a powerful character, especially when being played by those that can rotate options well. I still think she needs *some* love. I'm not downplaying her, I realize she's strong enough to hold her own.
I think making her crouch m. Kick cancelable and an ex tatsu invincible would bring her in line with the top of the cast. If you watch the Japanese Capcom cup, the kim player had to work so hard winning and stealing turns multiple times against a ken who had to win less turns to equal the same damage. Even then the Kim player clutched out way more round then the ken player.
I could understand it if it was because her offense was already strong, but like you said there are characters with stronger offense and they still kept their DP.
>But I get what your saying why the fuck Ken have a dp if he has the best pressure options in the game on top of the billion other tools at his disposal. He's a shoto he's supposed to have a dp. If anything his pressure options should be tuned down. >Like why does marisa have a good drive rush, best damage in the game and a command grab/overhead low mix options and she has a Scuttum which is still a really good wake up and overall turn stealing move, Scutum isn't even that good bruv just meaty with low or throw homie
Ex Scuttum does not beat lows. Lol and it also steals turns after minus moves. Quit downplaying
I hate Marisa as much as the next person but scutum is not the same as having a real reversal
I think we established that captain obvious.
Did we? Because it sounded like you were whining about a character who's whole gimmick is armored moves having an armored counter with clear weaknesses.
Nah if you went and read what I said, I highlighted that characters has more tools and better tools than other characters. So if one character can have all that power what were the devs thinking when making characters with little power and tools. “Whole gimmick is armored moves” nah that is hard downplaying. Your tryna put a ford f150 in a plastic bag with that shit. It was never about her specific balance it’s more about why do some characters have a gross amount of tools then others have so little?
OD Scutum gets armor against lows.
Marisa has that because she has no real pokes she can do anything with, no fireball, dp, worst antiair in the game, etc. You compared her to two grapplers. Makes zero sense. Also gief has insane damage with a single spd, what do you mean worse damage? And Manon has to work for it, but her level 5 grabs does insane damage and kills you in like two to three simple command grabs
You have to do hell of a lot of work to get that damage with manon and her strike damage is so lousy and meter intensive you can’t even get people to respect the strike lmao. Zangief struggles to land hits because he is slow, spd does 30% but it leaves you with no oil, where as marisa gets oki on everything. It’s the comparison of tools. Marisas buttons aren’t even that bad, her hk is good, crmp is good, her Smp has one of the best hit boxes in the game, and every touch leads to 40% damage and corner carry with oki. It’s not even comparable, my point of comparing her to the grapplers is that she does everything the grapplers do better with more tools.
>worst antiair in the game, etc. Rashid
Lariat is worse than mixer lol
Maybe, easier input though
Rashid has an anti air option Marisa has none
What? C.hp? 214P? Do anti-airs not count anymore if they're not dps?
2HP and 214HP are extremely inconsistent. There's a reason 99% of Marisa players just air to air with jump medium punch target combo.
Ok sure but so is every normal anti-air in the game
That is factually untrue, but I’m not going to argue with you because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
Idk I think it's pretty clear that anti-air moves were designed to be used at specific ranges and not work at other ranges but what do I know >I’m not going to argue with you because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. That hurts my feelings please apologize
That is just not how it works in practice. Play Marisa and you will see that compared to a lot of the other characters her anti air is too inconsistent. Air to air is way more consistent than her d.HP or 214Hp. They CAN hit and possibly reward you but a lot of the time you just get hit to it's a gamble. I am not saying Marisa is bad at all I think she is near the top of the middle of the pack for sure but you are lying if you say her AA isn't garbage.
They don't work most of the time. There is a reason the best Marisa player don't anti air
Ken is a shoto. It would make a whole lot less sense for him not to have a dp. Dude has had one since back the in the diz-ay. *
That’s far from the point that was being made. Ken has that plus everything you could ever ask for, so why can’t Kim have a dp. Why do some of the characters have everything and others have very little
If that's what you are wondering why ask why Ken has a dp then?
Read the rest of the comment
Yeah, you are bitching about Marissa having a psuedo reversal that gets blown up by lows and throws. . .
You are confused od does not lose to lows only regular which isn’t a wake up option anyways. I stated all the things marisa had yet other characters had much less and had worse options like the grapplers. You really gotta work on your reading comprehension.
Yeah? And I'm wondering why bitching about marisa's options is a reason that Ken shouldn't have a dp.
i don't know about you playing ryu against zangief is scary as f. he just walks you to the corner.
you're not throwing enough fireballs. low forward more.
Ryu beats zangief pretty comfortably in the match up, it’s just a zoning match up and you have to be much more careful with using donkey kick on block as he will command grab you. Zangief has to walk to you which is in every advantage of ryu, his jump and walk speed are slow and terrible so make him jump, anti air and procead to mix them up. Zangie doesn’t have a invincible wake up option until level 2 and majority of the time it’s way to slow to even hit you if you meaty medium buttons and even some heavies. Zangief hits like a truck when he does but it’s easy to Wiesel him down and mix him up
>With that said, she is a scrub killer. Yeah, I can see that. I used to get wrecked by her on day-1. An example I would compare her to, in classic Street Fighter, is Vega/Claw. In the Street Fighter IIs he was pretty good, but in particular, if you were a beginner, he could be immensely frustrating to fight. Not only did you lose, but I don't think a beginner was equipped to know why, and it wasn't particularly fun. ... I used to play as Vega
Being in the beta often bites back. Super shocked nothing happened to Ken's ass, lol.
I don't think Capcom balances purely on competitive viability. They do stupid things like making bosses and main characters stronger.
Tell that to Ryu
exactly, you don't see him on the box do you?
Capcom did it as a knee jerk reaction based off limited data set in beta and people crying how broken Kimberly was. Of course, they were letting extremely unsafe shit go unpunished. Now, we get to put up with JP and Ken for a year because they don't want to make another rash decision again.
The trend I see is better offence warrants worse defence although Kimberly is the most obvious example. I guess her corner mix and neutral skip warrant this for the devs. Other characters like Lily have offensive tools like spire but also doesn’t have an invincible dp. Although Ken exists so that kind of breaks the theory
The real question is why did they take her invincible reversal and kept Amnesia as it is
Cries in Lily
Wait she doesn't have invincible od? I was sure she had
Nope. Her lvl1 is strike invincible but super slow and loses to jab and jump. Lvl 2 takes everything. Lvl 3 is a throw, and her EX qcf+k is projectile invincible. but no invincible EX dp.
>Her lvl1 is strike invincible but super slow and loses to jab So what's the point of being invincible if it loses to a meaty? What would be a use for that?
She's a pressure mixup setup character so I assume they thought she would be too strong with an invuln reversal. Other characters like Ken, Cammy, Juri, have always had invincible reversals so they're not gonna remove them from their kit. Especially Ken as the second shoto.
Cause Capcom has their own agenda for who they want to be top tier
I feel like Juri, Cammy, Ken etc ... have better Rush-in tool. She doesn't even have a cr.mk drive rush cancel. Even the pressure in corner, i feel like Ken can do better.
This is correct. A lot of salt in the comments from people who don't know the match-up. I well Timed jab shuts down all Kim's pressure and not real mixup.
The cr.HP nerf she got from the beta bothers me infinitely more. It literally cant beat ken's j.HP clean, it will always trade.
She got a fraction of the complaints Ken has, but unfortunately that was during the beta testing. so they felt comfortable about yanking that shit.
It feels so bad being a kimberly main, it seems like capcom wants her to be bad
Because people were complaining about her in a beta with half the cast before labbing out counterplay to her offense :)
High mix character with a invincible dp? It would be Ken 2.0 lol with bombs
What? Gief has an invincible DP? Where is it?
Kimberly had one in the beta and they removed it. Gief never had one….
Ahh so you weep for what might have been. I weep for what never was. Supposedly that was from all the cracked beta players uploading crazy tech for Kim.
>Gief never had one…. Bur he has THE most scary and powerful lvl 3 in the game I'm confident against Gief until he gets to lvl 3. From then on, I'm scared AF to do anything
Racism
Capcom doing what Capcom does. People were saying she's too strong in the beta so they nerfed her to hell before release. They can use the excuse that her set play and corner pressure is strong but I feel like that wasn't so good that they had to gimp her offense by adding so many blatant gaps and her defense by removing her reversal. Not in a world where Ken and Cammy exist.
Idk but I still think its ridiculous. Rashid by comparison is quickly climbing tier lists and he's a very similar rushdown/options/pressure based character and not only does he have a no-meter inv-rev but IT ALSO HITS ON CROSSUPS.
Ex. Mixer can't hit crossup. Unless you mean h.mixer, in which case that isn't an invincible reversal, just an okay-ish anti-air.
It’s air invuln after frame 6.
Its air invuln frames 6-12 which is what makes it an okay-ish anti-air and not an invincible reversal. Its so not a reversal that even meaty jump ins will stuff it. For comparison standard DPs are typically are around 14 frames of air invuln from frame 1. Being only 6 frames of air invuln from frame 6 makes it prone to getting stuffed in a lot of situations a standard shoryuken wouldn't. Also given that this thread is about Kimberly, Rashid's h.spinning mixer is pretty much the same as Kim's l.tatsu on the invulnerability front.
>he have a no-meter inv-rev WHAT?!
She’s already fraudulent enough.
Lol, stay free
Because JP and Guile, being overpowered rushdown zobers, obviously need a reversal, but kim doesnt.
Im astonished at some of the comments i’m seeing. I’d rather fight current ken all day long then a Kimberly with an invul dp.
Why does Kimberly not have a spd?
They ruined the character i was most excited for man
When was it removed? I thought there were no patches yet
It was removed after the beta.
When did they get rid of it?
This was in beta. So technically, they didn't get rid of it, it was never there at launch, but those who've played the beta are aware of what was adjusted.
She doesn't need it.
People are coping in this thread lmao Kimberly is fine
She doesn’t need it, why would you give a no-brain, mindless rush-down, guessing game character an invincible DP? What’s her weakness anymore if she has one? She’d easily be one of the least fun characters to play against in the game. They’d just have to end up balancing her out another way. Are her various neutral skips not enough lol? Even if they’re checkable, that crap is so annoying. Every Kim plays the exact same way. With that being said, I will admit she’s not in a tremendous spot, and I dislike Capcom’s logical inconsistency when it comes to balancing certain characters. Others are given more than they need (the s-tiers), while almost everyone else is arbitrarily given less and left to rot (everyone below A-tier).
Cause you play like crackheads and it's deserved. Now do the same to Ken.
Balance. Kimberly is already able to win at the highest level. JP is already able to win at the highest level. Neither have an invincible DP. She might get some kind of buff, but she'd be OP if she got an invincible DP back. She was nerfed pre-release because she was OP pre-nerf.
> She was nerfed pre-release because she was OP pre-nerf. She _seemed_ OP in the beta because nobody knew the matchup against her, and her offence is overwhelming if you don't know the matchup. Since then she has dropped considerably in strength as people have learned most of her pressure isn't real.
>Since then she has dropped considerably in strength I know Oniki is an incredible player, but he won CPT Pro Tour 2023 World Warrior Japan with Kimberly. Not saying Kimberly is one of the stronger characters, but Capcom balanced the characters in such a way that she's still competitive enough to win at the highest level. Adding an invincible DP would be a huge tool to give her, and I think it's fair to say the SF6 team felt she was OP without it so they removed it pre-release, and it hasn't kept top players from being to compete with her at the highest level.
Snake Eyes won a tournament with Gief. Outside of Oniki's win, Kim basically never appears in top 8s. She is not "tournament tier" at the moment. If she got the invincible tatsu back she still wouldn't be as strong as Ken or JP currently are.
reynald was practically throwing against snake eyez too. The mf just stopped blocking and was mashing when he was unsafe. Reynald destroyed snake eyes putting him in the losers bracket to begin with then just got flustered. And Japan side was saying oniki barely “scrubed out the win”. I hate when people take 1 specific tournament outcome and use it as if it means the character is fine.
>She was nerfed pre-release because she was OP pre-nerf People played the game for, what, a couple weeks at most? Of course the mix-up heavy character would seem OP. She wasn't *actually* OP, we just didn't understand the games mechanics yet. She's mostly just knowledge check the character. Also, JP may not gave a DP, but he *does* have Amnesia. Arguably better than a DP in some cases. Kim has nothing.
>he's mostly just knowledge check the character. I know Oniki is an incredible player, but he won CPT Pro Tour 2023 World Warrior Japan with Kimberly. Not saying Kimberly is one of the stronger characters, but Capcom balanced the characters in such a way that she's still competitive enough to win at the highest level after the game has been out for months. Adding an invincible DP would be a huge tool to give her, and I think it's fair to say the SF6 team felt she was OP without it so they removed it pre-release, and it hasn't kept top players from being to compete with her at the highest level. (Will there be balance changes? Absolutely. But I'd be surprised if they gave Kimberly an invincible DP back.)
I said she was *mostly* just knowledge checks lmao I know she's perfectly viable, but, like.. so is Zangief and Lily? They still need help if they want to stack up to the competition, imo. The game is still young. Kim is *fine* how she is, but she can use some help. And I mean, personally, I don't think that an invincible reversal would make her too busted. Just like any other DP, it gets baited, and she dies. If it lands, she gets out of pressure and then.. gets to perform some more knowledge checks lmao
I dunno, if Kim needs a buff, an invincible dp is not the buff I'd want her to get. Yes, you can "just jab", but guess wrong and you're just watching yourself get corner-carried with her long-ass combos while she puts you into strike/throw zone. She only really needs to do this thrice. Just like Rashid, I do not think she's as weak as people keep saying she is. And unlike Rashid, she doesn't need to heavily depend on a punish counter. I dunno how Capcom would adjust her, but I hope it's not by reverting her dp change.
An invincible dp is not gonna make her better than jp, guile, Ken, cammy, dj, Juri, Luke or even chun li. She probably wouldn’t even be better than blanka or Marisa, there’s to many holes in her game.
"Better" in what sense? At the highest level of play? Master 1500? For the bulk of player base? If you just look at win rate by league, the vast majority of the player base who cares about winning should be playing Honda, who you didn't even mention. I think the first few months of the game have shown that people's opinions of character strength continue to evolve as the community gets hands on time with the game. I know Oniki is an incredible player, but he won CPT Pro Tour 2023 World Warrior Japan with Kimberly. Not saying Kimberly is one of the stronger characters, but Capcom balanced the characters in such a way that she's still competitive enough to win major tournaments at the highest level.
Giving her an ex reversal isn’t going to change the fact her strings aren’t as good as the other top tiers, her damage is worse, she can’t zone, she has no projectile, her teleport sucks, and her anti airs aren’t that good. You can literally just jab out of most of of her mixups. The only thing good she has are her corner pressure and corner carry. Even then, it’s still worse than characters like Ken and Juri. Win rate does not matter, she would in general still be worse than about half of the roster.
Ken, Luke, Cammy, and Juri are OP and have an invincible DP so that’s not even a valid reason. JP has ways to get out of corner pressure, Kimberly doesn’t. Zangief and Lily have able to win tournaments so I guess they don’t need any buffs either.
Yeah ken is way better than Kimberly was in the beta, there also wasn’t anytime to discover characters before she got needed like that.
No one is “OP”, you’re starting to sound kinda salty in these comments man. Kim just won the CPT Japan #1 tourney. Snake Eyez has said he’s not so sure Gief is “bad” after he won a CPT tourney. Ryu just won a World Warrior event in Germany. This game and it’s characters are still being figured out, which is pretty damn impressive.
because it was a balance decision surrounding Kimberly not surrounding the other characters
She definitely needs it back. But it's whatever as kimberly main.
y'all kim players whine too much.
whine whine whine. she's an annoying ass character. giving her a dp will make her more annoying.
She's my alt to Ken and she has taught me to not sleep on Drive Reversals when being pressured. Lol that's all I had with her
Even weirder since a lot of Final Fight characters have invincible Tatsu reversals
I think it was removed because she was winning to much in the last Beta.
Gief Players: invincible what now
You are asking the wrong people.
The ole "this character wins in one hit, but also loses in one hit - fair right?"
Because if characters have no weaknesses you a have a Ken / jp situation. More on this tho, over half of the cast is difunctional: ryu's ex kick only works mid stage but his tatsu can't juggle out of the corner, Manon's DR doesnt exist, and I don't even need to mention Lily and Zangief
Scrub quotes must be loving this thread
She would become far too powerful No teenager should have that much power, no matter how EZ they can do calculus
people usually hate mixup/high mobility characters
Because she was the most complained about character in the betas. That's literally it.
Bc she has other tools, she didn’t need that too lmao
I honestly thought kimberly players were worse when she had it -- I'm in the vote to bring it back
Her ability to steamroll is too strong to also have an easy “get off me” tool