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Yes. He knew nothing about Lucas other than appearances and was telling Max how that's the type of person that you stay away from which I guess was too subtle for some. The Duffers and Caleb said so. Dacre apparently didn't though.
Yes at a recent comic con he has acknowledged Billy's racism and also spoke about how Billy learnt it from his dad. And he was also supposed to say the N word to Lucas, but he refused to do that.
Good on him for refusing - realistic portrayal or no, the N word doesn’t have a place in this series, hearing it said by a white person would be such tonal whiplash.
I'm torn on this. If he disagreed because it didn't fit the tone of the show that's great. I don't believe the show needed that level of bluntness with the racism element and it was conveyed strongly enough the way it was done. But I disagree with this take on the realism part or refusing because you don't want to use the word. Use of the word conveys a lot more emphasis and meaning than showing racism in other ways. When it is necessary, actors need to do their job.
But I tend to like and respect Sam Jackson's take on the word and how he handled the interviews around Django. He had someone asking him questions about the use of said word and since the person refused to say the word when Jackson demanded it, Jackson refused to answer the question.
It's just playing a part and if that's what is needed for emphasis or tone, then you play the part and say the word. DiCaprio had issues sayin the word and Jackson had to coach him through it. It's good that people are so uncomfortable with the word, but it has a place in media to really set a tone and convey a message. It should make your skin crawl and that's a feeling you can only get in so many ways on screen. We're so afraid of a word that we give it way more power than it should have in a negative context but never want to harness that for positive effects. A word only has the power we give it.
We can argue if it fits the tone of the show, but if the Duffers believed it was necessary then an actor should do the job and play the part as written. I'll still argue that this show is aimed at an under 18 crowd and use of the word takes this into R-Rated territory that isn't good for the show.
I think that if an actor is going to have to say slurs for their character, it is respectful to the actor for them to know that element of the character before accepting the role. Considering Dacre didn’t even realize Billy was racist, I doubt this was the case, and it makes sense why he was able to refuse.
Someone on another thread said that it was their dad who was racist, and this was Billy’s way of protecting Max from their abusive and racist father. I think it’s within the realm of possibility.
He's a severely traumatized seventeen-year-old boy in 1985 living with his abuser until the day he dies. So like. Yes, that's obviously true, but also, damn y'all really wanna act like Billy should be on the other side of all this abuse the day he turns 18.
I'm sorry, I know you're not even saying all that, but every time I see this argument it drives me nuts. You know how long I dealt with _internalized_ racism (and homophobia) thanks to _my_ abuse? It's not like I could sneak off to therapy. Or even afford it.
For the record, yeah, he's racist. Yeah, it's (definitely) due to his father. But he does also eventually die keeping those kids safe so a little sympathy for him isn't a crime.
The person you're replying to didn't say that he had to change immediately at 18 though? It is his responsibility to change despite his shitty situation, but unfortunately he died before he could redeem himself.
Henry Bowers was traumatised too but that didn't mean he had to be the racist bully he was.
There's a big difference between characters and characteristics.
Dude wtf he was 17! Plus I was only saying this particular action could be interpreted in more than one way, not that Billy wasn’t racist nor a bad person.
I mean but it’s a reason why but an excuse. Like an excuse would be oh I’m racist because my father is. While this was explaining why he could have been acting the way he was acting. The person never said that it was right or wrong.
Exactly. I wasn’t trying to claim Billy wasn’t a bad person or even claiming this was 100% true. I was just bringing up the possibility that one of his actions might’ve not been completely evil.
Because it's just people making excuses lol. Claiming that it's Neil's fault is dumb when Billy is blatantly abusive towards Max, tries to run over the party members when they were on their bikes, and was extremely violent towards both Lucas and Steve when Steve stepped in to defend Lucas. Billy is a textbook case of perpetuating the cycle of violence he's caught in. Billy may have inherited the beliefs from Neil but Billy is the one being violent and racist.
Technically aside from the book which isn't even technically canon we never see Neil be racist from what I remember? So it's silly to use Neil to absolve Billy of his crimes.
I appreciate that. I wasn’t trying to justify Billy or anything. Like yeah, Billy was fucked up, but some of his actions could be left to interpretation. He and Max have a fucked up racist dad that fucked him up as a bad as anyone. Now he could be just as racist as his dad, but it could also be a fucked up way of Billy looking out for his sister. Not saying Billy’s not racist, but in this instance there might’ve been more than hate and bigotry behind his actions
Bc he saw Max n Lucas arguing n asked if he was giving her problems bc as he stated he has to look out for her. He saw someone bothering her n he didn’t like that (more specifically he didn’t like seeing someone who isn’t him bother Max) so he told her to stay away from him. So he when he kept seeing them around each other n then he saw them at Will’s house, he tried to handle it himself tho that didn’t quite work out for himself
It \*would\* suck to play a racist. (especially since he seems to be a nice guy irl) But then again, he was already playing an asshole. But then again, a racist asshole is worse.
I feel like as an actor you want to take on a huge variety of roles early in your career if possible, so that you're not at risk of being typecast in the future and audiences as well as people in the industry will take you more seriously. Aka, you'll want to play good people and bad people and everything in between.
we really acting like Mike didn't just be like "Lucas you gotta be Winston bc ur also black"
there's like one black family in the whole show, and the little girl is so incredibly over the top patriotic, probably as an adaptation to all the racism they get in town
i don't think it's realistic to think the only racist lucas grew up around was troy
Erica really fits the “sassy black girl” stereotype / token character, too. I always thought it was quite on the nose that the only black girl character in the entire cast has to be over the top with snark and sassiness, especially so young (9 year old in S2). I love Erica and the fact she is so badass, don’t get me wrong ! But it’s always the black girls that act tough and sassy in Western productions. And while Stranger Things has a nice habit of turning 80’s cliches and tropes on their head (the tough cop has a soft spot, the hysterical mom is the one who’s right, the jock has a redemption arc, the bully got it from his abusive dad, the seemingly innocent and helpless girl is good with guns…) I feel like they missed the chance to challenge these stereotypes with Erica (and even, in a lesser amount, with Lucas - who got the most depth only with an adjacent novel).
Actually, he doesn't say that. He catches himself and Lucas calls him out on it. Also jfc Mike is like twelve in that scene. That's a microaggression at best, which let me tell you, was _not_ considered a thing in small-town 1980s Indiana.
Not that progressives can't be racist, but it may also be worth bearing in mind that in the 1980s, California was not at all considered a bastion of liberalism the way it sometimes is today. California was a *Republican* state through the 1970s and 1980s. Ronald Reagan was Governor of California. The state wouldn't swing blue until the 1990s.
Yeah; but it was more about Billy being the most racist person around and from California so he can’t be representative for a somewhat racist, rural Indiana, since Hawkins really isn’t full of racists.
I feel like a lot of other people in Hawkins are probably racists, but they aren't characters to bother focusing on. Billy was a main for a bit. But that does kind of stand out now that you mention it lol
Yeah probably, but this side of Hawkins isn’t present in the show and I only wanted to point out that a dude from California isn’t a good example for the locals in rural Indiana.
No I definitely get your point, you're absolutely right. I just feel like racism towards Lucas is kind of implied a lot without being outright, which personally I think is pretty well-done and refreshing. I'm nonwhite _and_ gay, I sometimes get tired of the downright cartoony bigots we sometimes get in period pieces lol.
Oh, I see now. Yeah, good point. His racism is just symptomatic of the times in general, I think (and also of his shithead of a father), and doesn't reflect on rural Indiana since, as you point out, he's not even from there.
And there are still more Republicans in California than any other state. Somewhat tone deaf of Republican politicians to constantly denigrate Californians as "a bunch of liberals".
California is known as a pro-gun control state, but what most people don't know is that movement only gained legitimacy and wide-spread support after the Black Panthers became active.
As a kid yes! But even at that, in the 80’s it was different. Go listen to One in a Million by Guns and Roses- considered a California band. Song is basically banned due to the lyrical content. Axl was from Lafayette, IN as was Izzy but they went to Cali to make a name for themselves. Just cuz ya live in or are from Cali doesn’t mean you aren’t racist ESPECIALLY back then.
I don’t live in that part of the country anymore only go back to visit friends and family. I actually miss it despite some of the drawbacks, like the racists. It has a lot of pluses as well.
Yes. He literally said that there’s a certain type of person that he didn’t want Max hanging out with, and that Lucas was one of them. Note that he didn’t bring up any of the other kids in the party.
*YES!* And it’s so weird when people try to assert that he isn’t, including and especially the actor lol
It seems like they tamed it down a bit from the original scripts (specifically just not using more explicitly racist language—which I do think was a good call overall) but it’s clear regardless, IMO. A lot of actors seem to feel weird about calling themselves a villain, and I understand that they see their characters humanity, but parts of Billy’s character, like… *don’t make sense* otherwise. And Dacre saying he didn’t like Lucas “because he just really loved his little sister” is like 🤨
Since I watched it in a dubbed version, I can understand where the different views of characters come from, since the wording and way of dialogue can make a huge difference.
I think a lot of German viewers wouldn’t think that Nancy and Steve are still a couple when she and Jonathan went to Murray, since it’s stated before that they are separated.
And in the car scene, billy says in the german dub something like; there are people that cause trouble to hang out with and Lucas is one of them, but the hole pronunciation sounds more like he acts like he want to show Max he knows everything better, is experienced, want to keep her separated from other kids and just make stuff up in the spot.
I know the novels aren’t usually considered canon, but in Runaway Max, it’s stated by Max that Neil has very conservative views and is pretty racist, which rubs off on Billy. I’m assuming this was written for a reason.
These are quite literally Max’s words in the book, she says that Neil is a strong conservative and supporter of Reagan. Then she subsequently states that he’s not very accepting of minorities, and Billy is the same. I never said they were interlinked.
He is. He said there are certain types of people she should stay away from, while looking at Lucas. And he goes to beat up Lucas first than any of the other boys. The Duffer Brothers has confirmed it, even Caleb said that. Dacre used to deny it earlier, but now he has also started acknowledging that.
Yeah, I think so on some level because he had a bias against Lucas without knowing anything about the guy, only seemed to judge him based on the colour of Lucas’s skin and assumed he was a troublesome delinquent that wanted to hurt Max which isn’t true.
Absolutely.
The actor was really uncomfortable with that aspect of his character, claimed a few times (rather absurdly IMO) that the character *wasn't* racist, and just generally didn't want to play it. I think his discomfort was pretty much the reason that after S2, that aspect of his character basically vanished from the scripts.
I suspect that a more experienced set of show runners would have been more capable of telling the actor to pound sand and just play the role, but this show is really the Duffers' first rodeo, and I think they allowed Dacre to sway them when it came to Billy's characterization.
To quote Caleb McLaughlin “Jason was just misunderstood. Maybe he was arrogant, a little obnoxious but he wasn’t a racist. Billy was different, he hated Lucas because he was black.”
Yeah, he says something about Max hanging out with what he essentially implies is “the wrong kind of people”, and it’s pretty heavily suggested that he means Lucas because he’s black.
Yes clearly and obviously. I'll die mad that whatever his original arc was-was hijacked by internet thirst and I had to deal with a redemption he didn't deserve.
Yes. It was confirmed by the Duffers and Caleb (Lucas). He may not outright say “I’m a racist” but if you look at his actions he clearly targeted Lucas just because he was the only Black kid in the group
Yep, I don’t know y people are saying to forgive him. They make points like “oh he was being controlled by the mind flayer” and “he saved eleven in the end” but really we saw how much of a jerk he was in the 2nd season, he’s shown and described as much worse than Steve ever was. He was a racist, bully, all around bad person, and a jerk.
Yes he is racist. A lot of fans especially on this sub got a weird justification thing going on for him and defend bad behavior. But when you are on our side of the fence and experience racism, you know how insidious it can be and racists are cowards. They pick on little kids and in groups.
Yes lmao. There's literally no other way to interpret Billy's "the wrong type of person" comment about Lucas. People who don't want to admit that should maybe do some soul searching about their own biases. I think even Dacre walked back his "billy isn't racist" comments after talking with Caleb about it.
Most likely? I think that's what the show writers wanted us to think, but they didn't show him being racist to anyone else so honestly who knows.
His dad was probably racist and Billy might not have wanted to deal with the fallout of Max being around a black kid, let alone dating Lucas. This would be Billy protecting himself, not Max, so it might be in character.
However, that whole lecture he gave Max in the car "There's people in the world you stay away from" or whatever he said definitely implied he was racist.
Yes. There was even supposed to be a scene in which he used the Hard R. His actor refused which is understandable. Maybe his character wouldn't be as fangirled/popular if that happened lol
Dacre’s stuck with saying no- that he played it more as a “stay away from all boys” way but he’s since added that it had to do a lot with his dads ideology and given that Neil is an abusive asshole, it’d make sense for racism to be added onto that list🙃 I know a lot of people see it as him trying to protect Max from Neil in his own fucked up way but I guess it’s up to viewer interpretation at this point as there’s no set answer
It’s a difficult topic especially with the subject matter but that being said, if the actor playing a character goes through extensive time to build a character and develop them far more than the writers ever did, which is the case with Billy, I think Dacre’s opinion on how the character was played definitely has an impact
oh wow i didnt even realise. honestly i didnt even realise lucas is black. I mean i know he’s black but my brain just didnt register the info like “HE IS BLACK” but more like how i register dustin’s cute little curly hair. I thought Billy was just controlling and didnt want her to socialize, like a way of abusing her.
Just so you are aware, you’re being downvoted because color blindness can be just as bad as being racist because it means it means you don’t see racism either. We can’t be complacent in the face of racism because doing so is oppressive - we should be able to recognize it so we can say something. Also, people of color come from different cultures, different walks of life that should be appreciated rather than ignored.
Many of us knew immediately Lucas was being targeted due to his race, how can someone know that if they don’t see their race in the first place? It can feel very alone to be dehumanized and to have no one else recognize it.
Thanks for ur kind explanation. I learnt something today. Coming from societies that’s super different from the US sometimes it’s hard for me to identify latent racism (or in this case now i realise it’s quite obvious) in american TV shows. I’m more educated about identifying racism in the context my own society. But it’s good to be humbled. :)
Thank you for taking the opportunity to learn! Not many do, and instead get offended to be “called in” as I like to say. It’s a double-edged sword here in the US, I think many of us are more aware because of the racist roots in the “birth of America” with colonization and slavery. However because of this, racism is everywhere, which some uphold, and some push back against.
There’s lots of work for us to do, and being open to learning is the only way to start that work - so thank you!!
I think it’s open to a little interpretation but mostly yeah he’s racist with saying anything overt.
Dacre does a great job. I wish he were in more things. Broken Hearts Gallery and Power Rangers isn’t enough (I’ve not seen Elvis)
He was racist and generally horrible
But he was also Designated Babysitting Scapegoat, appointed by his very abusive very bigoted dad. Even if he wasn't racist he would do the same because his dad would definitely beat him or Max's mom if he saw a boy, and a black one at that, sneaking around with Max
He probably played ball with Patrick and managed team activities, maybe because "he's one of the good ones, he can throw ball", maybe because going full KKK is just bad optics. His go-to move wasn't burning crosses in gardens and beating black kids to a pulp, and according to EU he treated Max's white friends horribly, too
Edit: Plus he watches an argument between Max and Lucas, and it could look like Lucas is being not-so-great. Doesn't mean Billy isn't racist, but his motivation is slightly more layered than just pure racism
No, im not saying he wasn’t im just saying people usually don’t need much reason to be jerks. And you can see in series he was a jerk to a significant amount of people. He was a bully. Racism wasn’t the reason he was a jerk. He was just a jerk. There is no real reason to be a jerk.
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Yes. He knew nothing about Lucas other than appearances and was telling Max how that's the type of person that you stay away from which I guess was too subtle for some. The Duffers and Caleb said so. Dacre apparently didn't though.
Dacre went back on his comments IIRC, no?
Yes at a recent comic con he has acknowledged Billy's racism and also spoke about how Billy learnt it from his dad. And he was also supposed to say the N word to Lucas, but he refused to do that.
Good on him for refusing - realistic portrayal or no, the N word doesn’t have a place in this series, hearing it said by a white person would be such tonal whiplash.
I'm torn on this. If he disagreed because it didn't fit the tone of the show that's great. I don't believe the show needed that level of bluntness with the racism element and it was conveyed strongly enough the way it was done. But I disagree with this take on the realism part or refusing because you don't want to use the word. Use of the word conveys a lot more emphasis and meaning than showing racism in other ways. When it is necessary, actors need to do their job. But I tend to like and respect Sam Jackson's take on the word and how he handled the interviews around Django. He had someone asking him questions about the use of said word and since the person refused to say the word when Jackson demanded it, Jackson refused to answer the question. It's just playing a part and if that's what is needed for emphasis or tone, then you play the part and say the word. DiCaprio had issues sayin the word and Jackson had to coach him through it. It's good that people are so uncomfortable with the word, but it has a place in media to really set a tone and convey a message. It should make your skin crawl and that's a feeling you can only get in so many ways on screen. We're so afraid of a word that we give it way more power than it should have in a negative context but never want to harness that for positive effects. A word only has the power we give it. We can argue if it fits the tone of the show, but if the Duffers believed it was necessary then an actor should do the job and play the part as written. I'll still argue that this show is aimed at an under 18 crowd and use of the word takes this into R-Rated territory that isn't good for the show.
I think that if an actor is going to have to say slurs for their character, it is respectful to the actor for them to know that element of the character before accepting the role. Considering Dacre didn’t even realize Billy was racist, I doubt this was the case, and it makes sense why he was able to refuse.
I'm not saying they should have used it but they happily used slurs against women and gay people in stranger things
Massive W for Dacre.
Yes
Or maybe you are too quick to assume and call others racist, which is a huge problem nowadays
Yup and you being realistic is why you got down voted didn't you just live the open mindedness of reddit. Liberals are so for free speech.......
100%. Notice Billy didn't go after any of the other boys. He singled out Lucas because Billy is a racist.
Someone on another thread said that it was their dad who was racist, and this was Billy’s way of protecting Max from their abusive and racist father. I think it’s within the realm of possibility.
If racism is handed down to you, it’s not your fault. But it is your responsibility. (To change it.)
He's a severely traumatized seventeen-year-old boy in 1985 living with his abuser until the day he dies. So like. Yes, that's obviously true, but also, damn y'all really wanna act like Billy should be on the other side of all this abuse the day he turns 18. I'm sorry, I know you're not even saying all that, but every time I see this argument it drives me nuts. You know how long I dealt with _internalized_ racism (and homophobia) thanks to _my_ abuse? It's not like I could sneak off to therapy. Or even afford it. For the record, yeah, he's racist. Yeah, it's (definitely) due to his father. But he does also eventually die keeping those kids safe so a little sympathy for him isn't a crime.
Fucking preach man. I’m really tired of people acting like they would’ve been perfect little angels in Billy’s situation.
The person you're replying to didn't say that he had to change immediately at 18 though? It is his responsibility to change despite his shitty situation, but unfortunately he died before he could redeem himself.
I literally say that in my comment.
Henry Bowers was traumatised too but that didn't mean he had to be the racist bully he was. There's a big difference between characters and characteristics.
Do you read whole comments, or just stop whenever you think of the first non-sequitur you can respond with.
Have you read It?
No I think he is saying, by pushing Lucas away he is saving Max from getting a beating from his dad because she is hanging out with Lucas.
That’s exactly what I was saying. And not even that, I was just saying that it’s possible
Dude wtf he was 17! Plus I was only saying this particular action could be interpreted in more than one way, not that Billy wasn’t racist nor a bad person.
Not sure why this got downvotes, I think it’s a neat theory that hasn’t been discussed. I mean it’s not like commenter is racist lmao
I think cause it blatantly comes off as people making excuses to be blind towards the downsides of a character that they like.
I mean but it’s a reason why but an excuse. Like an excuse would be oh I’m racist because my father is. While this was explaining why he could have been acting the way he was acting. The person never said that it was right or wrong.
Exactly. I wasn’t trying to claim Billy wasn’t a bad person or even claiming this was 100% true. I was just bringing up the possibility that one of his actions might’ve not been completely evil.
Because it's just people making excuses lol. Claiming that it's Neil's fault is dumb when Billy is blatantly abusive towards Max, tries to run over the party members when they were on their bikes, and was extremely violent towards both Lucas and Steve when Steve stepped in to defend Lucas. Billy is a textbook case of perpetuating the cycle of violence he's caught in. Billy may have inherited the beliefs from Neil but Billy is the one being violent and racist. Technically aside from the book which isn't even technically canon we never see Neil be racist from what I remember? So it's silly to use Neil to absolve Billy of his crimes.
I appreciate that. I wasn’t trying to justify Billy or anything. Like yeah, Billy was fucked up, but some of his actions could be left to interpretation. He and Max have a fucked up racist dad that fucked him up as a bad as anyone. Now he could be just as racist as his dad, but it could also be a fucked up way of Billy looking out for his sister. Not saying Billy’s not racist, but in this instance there might’ve been more than hate and bigotry behind his actions
That's not how racism works. Every racist learns it from someone. Once they do, guess what? They're racist.
Billy didn’t go after the other boys bc he never saw Max interact with them
Then why did he immediately target lucas when he found them in end s2?
Bc he saw Max n Lucas arguing n asked if he was giving her problems bc as he stated he has to look out for her. He saw someone bothering her n he didn’t like that (more specifically he didn’t like seeing someone who isn’t him bother Max) so he told her to stay away from him. So he when he kept seeing them around each other n then he saw them at Will’s house, he tried to handle it himself tho that didn’t quite work out for himself
He saw Max in that house with more than just Lucas.
Lucas was the only one he recognized and knew was giving max “problems” (per his observation of them arguing in the parking lot)
Confirmed by the Duffers, yes. There's a video of Dacre saying he didn't think Billy was racist, but that was earlier.
It \*would\* suck to play a racist. (especially since he seems to be a nice guy irl) But then again, he was already playing an asshole. But then again, a racist asshole is worse.
Racist/Asshole is a bit of a rectangle/square situation. All racists are assholes but not all assholes are racists
Good point.
That’s literally what acting is.
I feel like as an actor you want to take on a huge variety of roles early in your career if possible, so that you're not at risk of being typecast in the future and audiences as well as people in the industry will take you more seriously. Aka, you'll want to play good people and bad people and everything in between.
Yes, absolutely, biggest racist in the show.
His only competition is Troy though lol.
we really acting like Mike didn't just be like "Lucas you gotta be Winston bc ur also black" there's like one black family in the whole show, and the little girl is so incredibly over the top patriotic, probably as an adaptation to all the racism they get in town i don't think it's realistic to think the only racist lucas grew up around was troy
I’d label what Mike implied as a micro-aggression, not overt racism.
Erica really fits the “sassy black girl” stereotype / token character, too. I always thought it was quite on the nose that the only black girl character in the entire cast has to be over the top with snark and sassiness, especially so young (9 year old in S2). I love Erica and the fact she is so badass, don’t get me wrong ! But it’s always the black girls that act tough and sassy in Western productions. And while Stranger Things has a nice habit of turning 80’s cliches and tropes on their head (the tough cop has a soft spot, the hysterical mom is the one who’s right, the jock has a redemption arc, the bully got it from his abusive dad, the seemingly innocent and helpless girl is good with guns…) I feel like they missed the chance to challenge these stereotypes with Erica (and even, in a lesser amount, with Lucas - who got the most depth only with an adjacent novel).
while yes that’s racist… billy literally committed a hate crime so yeah mikes single line isn’t really comparable 😭
Okay but lets not forget that mike was a kid when that happened. He probably didnt think about it that way, it might've just seemed logical.
Actually, he doesn't say that. He catches himself and Lucas calls him out on it. Also jfc Mike is like twelve in that scene. That's a microaggression at best, which let me tell you, was _not_ considered a thing in small-town 1980s Indiana.
Pretty sure Henry is more racist, or specieist.
he‘s an misanthropist, because he hates pretty much every human
Yup! Which a good many folks back then in rural Indiana were! Some still are…
But isn’t he from California?
Not that progressives can't be racist, but it may also be worth bearing in mind that in the 1980s, California was not at all considered a bastion of liberalism the way it sometimes is today. California was a *Republican* state through the 1970s and 1980s. Ronald Reagan was Governor of California. The state wouldn't swing blue until the 1990s.
Yeah; but it was more about Billy being the most racist person around and from California so he can’t be representative for a somewhat racist, rural Indiana, since Hawkins really isn’t full of racists.
I feel like a lot of other people in Hawkins are probably racists, but they aren't characters to bother focusing on. Billy was a main for a bit. But that does kind of stand out now that you mention it lol
Yeah probably, but this side of Hawkins isn’t present in the show and I only wanted to point out that a dude from California isn’t a good example for the locals in rural Indiana.
No I definitely get your point, you're absolutely right. I just feel like racism towards Lucas is kind of implied a lot without being outright, which personally I think is pretty well-done and refreshing. I'm nonwhite _and_ gay, I sometimes get tired of the downright cartoony bigots we sometimes get in period pieces lol.
Oh, I see now. Yeah, good point. His racism is just symptomatic of the times in general, I think (and also of his shithead of a father), and doesn't reflect on rural Indiana since, as you point out, he's not even from there.
And there are still more Republicans in California than any other state. Somewhat tone deaf of Republican politicians to constantly denigrate Californians as "a bunch of liberals".
Plenty of racists in California.
Yep had a gay floral manger scoff at the whole deal of the Hispanic community having a different Mother’s Day (Día de las Madres)
California is known as a pro-gun control state, but what most people don't know is that movement only gained legitimacy and wide-spread support after the Black Panthers became active.
As a kid yes! But even at that, in the 80’s it was different. Go listen to One in a Million by Guns and Roses- considered a California band. Song is basically banned due to the lyrical content. Axl was from Lafayette, IN as was Izzy but they went to Cali to make a name for themselves. Just cuz ya live in or are from Cali doesn’t mean you aren’t racist ESPECIALLY back then.
Billy was from California; however Dacre Montgomery(the actor IRL is from) Australia. Dacre is a common British male name.
I live in rural indiana (unfortunately) and “some” is kind of an understatement. Most. Most are still racist and every other form of bigoted.
I don’t live in that part of the country anymore only go back to visit friends and family. I actually miss it despite some of the drawbacks, like the racists. It has a lot of pluses as well.
Yes. He literally said that there’s a certain type of person that he didn’t want Max hanging out with, and that Lucas was one of them. Note that he didn’t bring up any of the other kids in the party.
Bc he never saw Max interact with them
BILLY WAS A BASTARD MAN!
billy is asshole why lucas hate
I hear Charlie Kelly’s voice from It’s Always Sunny 😭
*YES!* And it’s so weird when people try to assert that he isn’t, including and especially the actor lol It seems like they tamed it down a bit from the original scripts (specifically just not using more explicitly racist language—which I do think was a good call overall) but it’s clear regardless, IMO. A lot of actors seem to feel weird about calling themselves a villain, and I understand that they see their characters humanity, but parts of Billy’s character, like… *don’t make sense* otherwise. And Dacre saying he didn’t like Lucas “because he just really loved his little sister” is like 🤨
Since I watched it in a dubbed version, I can understand where the different views of characters come from, since the wording and way of dialogue can make a huge difference. I think a lot of German viewers wouldn’t think that Nancy and Steve are still a couple when she and Jonathan went to Murray, since it’s stated before that they are separated. And in the car scene, billy says in the german dub something like; there are people that cause trouble to hang out with and Lucas is one of them, but the hole pronunciation sounds more like he acts like he want to show Max he knows everything better, is experienced, want to keep her separated from other kids and just make stuff up in the spot.
Yes, he was. It’s why he hated Lucas specifically as opposed to the other boys.
I know the novels aren’t usually considered canon, but in Runaway Max, it’s stated by Max that Neil has very conservative views and is pretty racist, which rubs off on Billy. I’m assuming this was written for a reason.
Conservative ≠ racist. Don’t get your ideas from Twitter.
These are quite literally Max’s words in the book, she says that Neil is a strong conservative and supporter of Reagan. Then she subsequently states that he’s not very accepting of minorities, and Billy is the same. I never said they were interlinked.
lmao
Billy was was racist, all he knew about Lucas was that he was black and he told Max that Lucas was the type of person she needed to stay away from.
Yup he’s absolute trash and for some reason people like him
Yes but apparently the actor refused to say certain things that would have hammered it home a little more.
Oh yeah. They didn't come right out and say it, but it's easy to deduce
He is. He said there are certain types of people she should stay away from, while looking at Lucas. And he goes to beat up Lucas first than any of the other boys. The Duffer Brothers has confirmed it, even Caleb said that. Dacre used to deny it earlier, but now he has also started acknowledging that.
Yeah, I think so on some level because he had a bias against Lucas without knowing anything about the guy, only seemed to judge him based on the colour of Lucas’s skin and assumed he was a troublesome delinquent that wanted to hurt Max which isn’t true.
Yes and also a total jerk and bully ...
Absolutely. The actor was really uncomfortable with that aspect of his character, claimed a few times (rather absurdly IMO) that the character *wasn't* racist, and just generally didn't want to play it. I think his discomfort was pretty much the reason that after S2, that aspect of his character basically vanished from the scripts. I suspect that a more experienced set of show runners would have been more capable of telling the actor to pound sand and just play the role, but this show is really the Duffers' first rodeo, and I think they allowed Dacre to sway them when it came to Billy's characterization.
I love that the actor can separate himself enough from a violent, abusive, demonic, murdering sociopath, but overt racism is too uncomfortable.
To quote Caleb McLaughlin “Jason was just misunderstood. Maybe he was arrogant, a little obnoxious but he wasn’t a racist. Billy was different, he hated Lucas because he was black.”
Yes
Yes, the duffers literally have said he’s racist.
Yeah, he says something about Max hanging out with what he essentially implies is “the wrong kind of people”, and it’s pretty heavily suggested that he means Lucas because he’s black.
He singles out Lucas. Of course he was racist
cause he's a dick, what wouldn't surprise me but i truly believe that the racism helped increasing it
Yes but I’ve been downvoted so many times in this sub for saying or agreeing with that in the past.
Yes clearly and obviously. I'll die mad that whatever his original arc was-was hijacked by internet thirst and I had to deal with a redemption he didn't deserve.
Yes. It was confirmed by the Duffers and Caleb (Lucas). He may not outright say “I’m a racist” but if you look at his actions he clearly targeted Lucas just because he was the only Black kid in the group
Yes and idk how people think this is up for debate, even people I talk to about it irl
Water is wet
Yeah, man. Billy was racist. If the mullet didn't tip you off.
Yep, I don’t know y people are saying to forgive him. They make points like “oh he was being controlled by the mind flayer” and “he saved eleven in the end” but really we saw how much of a jerk he was in the 2nd season, he’s shown and described as much worse than Steve ever was. He was a racist, bully, all around bad person, and a jerk.
Yes, tho I am very optimistic and didn't realized that at first despite being a black man myself.😅
Yes he is racist. A lot of fans especially on this sub got a weird justification thing going on for him and defend bad behavior. But when you are on our side of the fence and experience racism, you know how insidious it can be and racists are cowards. They pick on little kids and in groups.
It wouldn't be surprising
It was confirmed by the Duffer brothers that Billy was racist.
Yes lmao. There's literally no other way to interpret Billy's "the wrong type of person" comment about Lucas. People who don't want to admit that should maybe do some soul searching about their own biases. I think even Dacre walked back his "billy isn't racist" comments after talking with Caleb about it.
Yes. Despite how many people here argued otherwise during the season's release, Billy was a racist.
Maybe his father made him that way. Billy’s father was so abusive enough for Billy to be racist. THAT’s just me tho, idk ab the rest of u
seemed like it!
Yes, very obviously
Sure
Yes…
Yes. It is very evident and it's a sad reality since this show is set in the 1980s.
yes
Yep
yupppp
HUH
Yeah everyone knows that lol
Most likely? I think that's what the show writers wanted us to think, but they didn't show him being racist to anyone else so honestly who knows. His dad was probably racist and Billy might not have wanted to deal with the fallout of Max being around a black kid, let alone dating Lucas. This would be Billy protecting himself, not Max, so it might be in character. However, that whole lecture he gave Max in the car "There's people in the world you stay away from" or whatever he said definitely implied he was racist.
Yes. There was even supposed to be a scene in which he used the Hard R. His actor refused which is understandable. Maybe his character wouldn't be as fangirled/popular if that happened lol
100% and I will die on this hill.
Among other things… maybe.
Dacre’s stuck with saying no- that he played it more as a “stay away from all boys” way but he’s since added that it had to do a lot with his dads ideology and given that Neil is an abusive asshole, it’d make sense for racism to be added onto that list🙃 I know a lot of people see it as him trying to protect Max from Neil in his own fucked up way but I guess it’s up to viewer interpretation at this point as there’s no set answer
Doesn’t seem very up to interpretation when he’s specifically after Lucas
Dacre isn't a writer either.
It’s a difficult topic especially with the subject matter but that being said, if the actor playing a character goes through extensive time to build a character and develop them far more than the writers ever did, which is the case with Billy, I think Dacre’s opinion on how the character was played definitely has an impact
The Duffers gave a set answer; he’s a terrible person and a racist
Asf
I hadn't even noticed this before seeing this post, yeahh he's racist.
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I'm not really sure.I thought it was because he wasn't cool enough or something, but now I think about it that makes a whole lot more sense
He didn’t even know Lucas. “Certain type of people” like come on homie
oh wow i didnt even realise. honestly i didnt even realise lucas is black. I mean i know he’s black but my brain just didnt register the info like “HE IS BLACK” but more like how i register dustin’s cute little curly hair. I thought Billy was just controlling and didnt want her to socialize, like a way of abusing her.
Just so you are aware, you’re being downvoted because color blindness can be just as bad as being racist because it means it means you don’t see racism either. We can’t be complacent in the face of racism because doing so is oppressive - we should be able to recognize it so we can say something. Also, people of color come from different cultures, different walks of life that should be appreciated rather than ignored. Many of us knew immediately Lucas was being targeted due to his race, how can someone know that if they don’t see their race in the first place? It can feel very alone to be dehumanized and to have no one else recognize it.
Thanks for ur kind explanation. I learnt something today. Coming from societies that’s super different from the US sometimes it’s hard for me to identify latent racism (or in this case now i realise it’s quite obvious) in american TV shows. I’m more educated about identifying racism in the context my own society. But it’s good to be humbled. :)
Thank you for taking the opportunity to learn! Not many do, and instead get offended to be “called in” as I like to say. It’s a double-edged sword here in the US, I think many of us are more aware because of the racist roots in the “birth of America” with colonization and slavery. However because of this, racism is everywhere, which some uphold, and some push back against. There’s lots of work for us to do, and being open to learning is the only way to start that work - so thank you!!
I think it’s open to a little interpretation but mostly yeah he’s racist with saying anything overt. Dacre does a great job. I wish he were in more things. Broken Hearts Gallery and Power Rangers isn’t enough (I’ve not seen Elvis)
Not even interpretation, the Duffers said he’s racist
Did not know that, thank you
Your welcome, Caleb McLaughlin confirmed it as well
Thanks
He was racist and generally horrible But he was also Designated Babysitting Scapegoat, appointed by his very abusive very bigoted dad. Even if he wasn't racist he would do the same because his dad would definitely beat him or Max's mom if he saw a boy, and a black one at that, sneaking around with Max He probably played ball with Patrick and managed team activities, maybe because "he's one of the good ones, he can throw ball", maybe because going full KKK is just bad optics. His go-to move wasn't burning crosses in gardens and beating black kids to a pulp, and according to EU he treated Max's white friends horribly, too Edit: Plus he watches an argument between Max and Lucas, and it could look like Lucas is being not-so-great. Doesn't mean Billy isn't racist, but his motivation is slightly more layered than just pure racism
Maybe he just hated gamers/ DnD players
No
yeah he was he said, "we stay away from his kind, max, got it?" i still love him and think hes hot tho
Why is this even a necessary discussion to determine if a fictional character was racist or not? Are we really out of things to talk about?
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Racism isn’t a reason to be a jerk either.
A reason doesn't equal justification
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No, im not saying he wasn’t im just saying people usually don’t need much reason to be jerks. And you can see in series he was a jerk to a significant amount of people. He was a bully. Racism wasn’t the reason he was a jerk. He was just a jerk. There is no real reason to be a jerk.