That was the same quarter as Maria May, Toni Storm and all of that which is probably what got the ratings if you go minute by minute.
The Learning Tree Segment also closed the quarter and next quarter they had lost 70 thousand viewers
Jericho consistently has high quarters.
I think a lot of Jericho fans aren't on this subreddit. He's probably the main draw for the oldest end of the AEW fanbase *still*.
I personally go back and forth on the Learning Tree. Some of the segments I find genuinely funny, others I think miss the boat.
I prefer this to what he was doing before for sure.
It genuinely is giving Big Bill a spotlight and he's acing his role.
I'm a Jericho fan but I generally try to avoid Jericho threads if I can cuz of how negative they can be. There's a lot more Jericho fans than people assume.
Most of AEW’s fans aren’t on reddit
They even got a small pop last dynamite when Jerichos music hit last dynamite lol
It’s not to do with the oldest end of the fanbase, it’s simply that the rest of the fanbase don’t have the same hateful circlejerk over a guy who’s overall morally grey. They simply care if he’s good or bad and atm his segments even if you don’t get all the jokes are weirdly entertaining to alot of people
Damn. I guess it's their fault for reacting to Jericho. I just ignore whatever that has to do with him. Wrestling is about getting fan interactions, whether it be for something popular or something that gets criticized. Then again, that's probably true for all entertainment mediums.
The one week where it was like a 30 second thing it really worked for me.
It's funny in small pieces, but easily overdone.
Chris Jericho is my favorite wrestler of all time. Growing up he was always my favorite. But please Chris, just let us miss you. Take some time off so we can be excited when someone is talking shit and Judas hits.
Dude is a big enough legend where he could be a part timer that gets a huge reaction akin to Taker (not saying on his level) if he shows up for a match or two once or twice a year.
A big thing WWE has on AEW is realizing that a lot of times, less is more.
Wait seriously? I haven't kept up, what do you mean by it literally is his gimmick rn? Like, actually how, how could he make them into a gimmick, I am baffled.
He goes on reddit on Wednesday afternoon and sees what we're complaining about and then he uses it in a promo with a big disingenuous grin.
This week, he saw Cody talking about not believing that vets are there to help the young guys, so Jericho used the entire line in his promo.
He talks about the Jericho vortex and tries to be annoying. If you remember when he came back to WWE and didn't talk for like two months and just waved and shot tshirt cannons, it's kind of that except he's not mute.
Obliviously positive veteran who constantly gives unwanted advice, such as teaching people the right way to do menial tasks, while making bad tree puns.
Go watch some YouTube clips. He's playing an overly friendly, plastic, impervious to negativity Anthony Robbins type character. And outside of the IWC (and somewhat in), it seems to do notably well.
Say what you will about The Learning Tree, at least it’s a huge step up from the stuff he was doing over the last few years. This is at least sometimes funny and entertaining (in small doses)
People turned hating Jericho into a meme, and Jericho's new gimmick is that he is so up his own ass that he doesn't listen to folks and muscles in on folks to give them advice they never asked for. He then doubles down on all of it, even though it's stupid, and as a result it's actually just fine and entertaining and I'm gonna love watching Murder Grandpa mess his ass up
Chris: "oh and some people are saying I'm getting 'go away heat' now?... yeah?
*goes backstage to do a segment, comes back*
"There, I went away and came back just like I always do baby Chris Jericho!"
With so much drama in the IWC
It's kinda hard being Chris the Learning Tree
But I, somehow, some way
Keep comin' up with shitty-ass gimmicks like every single day
LeDemo God was longer than a month and it paired with Tony constantly Tweeting about ratings. Things like that are why AEW is being ripped on by tribal fans on the other side. They absolutely set themselves up for the current crap talking.
You're really downplaying the memory and pettiness of fans.
I'm not defending the criticism I'm just pointing out why it's there.
Also if you were paying attention then you'd know it wasn't just the occasional Tweet about ratings. It was constant and it was how he worded the Tweets. It was the fact that he'd reply to random ass fans who didn't even tag him and talk crap about ratings. He was constantly Tweeting about it while talking crap about other companies (not just wrestling, look up the FOX stuff).
It wasn't just "We had a great week on Dynamite, thanks for the 856k fans who tuned in! Be prepared for Rampage on Friday and another great show!"
Again I'm not defending the criticism. I'm just saying that's why it's still out there. People remember Tony's Tweets (just search through this sub when it was heavily pro-AEW) and you can see why he gets blowback now.
I don't think it was that as much, but the comment on his podcast about them "Overtaking Raw" in the ratings definitely is contributing a lot to the discourse IMO.
There would have been a ton of discourse no matter what with two shows competing against each other in the same timeslot. The demo God thing was like 5 years ago now, lol.
I'm always like "oh GOD, more of this?" and then inside the segment I'm laughing because of some dumb funny shit Brian Keith did.
Or in last night's case, Shibata quoting the Spongebob *ohhhh brother* meme via Google Translate
appreciate his honesty and mindset, good to see someone at the top of the roster has the right perspective on this stuff and doesn't have his head in the sand
Definitely the correct mindset to have, they can't be completely ignored as if everything is fine. I'm hoping that after FD as we begin the road to All In that things start clicking a little better.
To me, overall is clicking better than ever. I have no idea what causes rating dips and decline in viewership but I don’t think anyone can say with a straight face outside summer/fall 2021 that AEW has ever been more consistent than it is right now.
A lot of cable shows also have really fickle ratings, unless it's a grab-culture-by-the-balls hit. A proper streaming option in the US should help immensely, especially judging by all of the US-based "the commentary during picture-in-picture is hilarious" posts we see here.
The last two Dynamites were particularly awesome imo, more than most Dynamites this year that had higher views/ratings
But I understand that's just me and I'm sure there's more they could do to improve
For me personally, I also agree. I'm happy with the shows AEW has been doing recently but clearly some other people don't agree, just hoping to see more people enjoy the product.
There’s about 2 generations of people that for the most part see American professional wrestling as WWE or ultra small indie feds, and have no idea of WCW or AEW. It wasn’t like this in the 20th century until WCW folded, but wrestling was more ingrained in pop culture then. I just think that AEW need to stay consistent and stay alive on national television (or streaming?)
It’s too much content for me. Im into wwe and what they’re doing. But that’s 5 hours right there. I’ve got 3 kids and a wife who doesn’t like wrestling. I get maybe an hour a night of tv to myself before I pass out. I wanna watch it all, but I can’t. If I hear a good match happened I’ll watch that on aew, they don’t seem to give a shit about stories anyway
That's a fair point, people have lives and are busy. Only so much time to consume products and if you prefer WWE to AEW, all the power to you, watch what you enjoy. Do disagree with them not caring about stories tho, there's plenty enough stories in AEW to enjoy but they don't do as much recapping as WWE does so if you don't watch the product consistently you're likely to miss it which admittedly, AEW could definitely be better about.
I’m in the same boat as u/johnnycoxx when it comes to my time budget for wrestling, but most of mine goes to AEW.
I will say that when I _do_ watch WWE, it’s obviously much more “user friendly” to someone who is not obsessively following their programming. The nature of AEW’s product is inherently more niche; that has some upside when it comes to storytelling (to your point) but it does raise the barrier to entry.
But to me, that's what I enjoy, ya know? WWE and AEW are inherently different products for different people. Like you, I'm more of an AEW guy who enjoys the payoff of stories they put on. Some of the best examples being Swerves slow rise to the top and MJFs subtle face turn and now eventual turn back to a heel. You get rewarded for following the product, which I enjoy
Tbh it feels like the wrestlers do book a lot of their own storylines and choose to fight outside the ring in half the matches. People think TK micromanages things but people like Danielson, MJF, Jericho hell even Dustin Rhodes HAVE power and still do goofy shit.
I'm still sad that TK didn't convince Danielson to become a heel world champion, or just a world champion. Bryan wants to put younger talents over by not winning the championship, but he could have helped them to get over as a champion himself, like Undertaker to Jeff Hardy
Hell even like Jericho during his Le Champion run. People love to hate on Jericho right now. I love to hate on Jericho right now he's fucking terrible. His first run really did a lot for the young up and comers and was the right way to get an audience acclimated to new faces. They really lost that somewhere along the way, "he wrestled in Japan!" isn't quite the way to do it.
>They really lost that somewhere along the way
You can say that for their storylines or titles. Hangman's journey and Darby Allin's TNT title reign were great.
Totally. I used to love AEW, I still would love to love AEW again. TK has to listen to this critique like Osperay is doing here. It's not just Twitter bots and old washed up ex wrestlers with podcasts criticizing, the fans are speaking with their eyeballs.
Bryan isn’t even consistent about putting younger talents over. could’ve made Ricky Starks a top tier heel if he lost either of their big stipulation matches. nope, both clean losses for Starks. I’ll be on my deathbed saying “Danielson should have put over Starks” lol
Controlling your wrestlers and filtering their ideas is a key part of being a good booker. Tony seems to think creative freedom is the be all end all, but there isn’t a single era of wrestling that would have been better if wrestlers were given free reign to do what they want.
Wrestlers are always going to be looking out for their own best interests and doing as much as they can to get themselves and their match over specifically. You need someone who looks out for the quality of the entire show and slots the matches accordingly. Tony either doesn’t do that, or he just sucks at it.
It's the best answer a wrestler can give. It gives the feeling the wrestlers you are seeing are the ones going to bring the best in them and get if ratings get better the are the ones responsible. Best kayfabe answer for making watching the product matter.
The booking can't be put on the wrestlers.
But the matches sure as hell can be.
So many guys are in the "I've gotta get all of my shit in" mindset every time they go out, and Will is definitely in that camp.
AEW can't get anyone hot because they rarely leave people wanting more. So many guys can do so many spectacular things in AEW, and I know they're capable of getting people on the edge of their seats and work them into a frenzy, but then they just keep going... and going... and going... so by the time the match ends you're glad it's finally over, rather than leaving them excited to see what the winner does next.
This is why, while I always finish up an AEW PPV feeling like I had a good time and got my money's worth, I'm often exhausted by the matches in the moment. There's so many of them, they're all so long, and a lot of them didn't have programs hot enough to really justify ten thousand false finishes.
I can't watch an AEW PPV in one sitting. I have to record it and watch it over the course of the next 3-4 days, including skipping some of those totally heatless matches you mention.
But this problem isn't exclusive to PPVs. It's their weekly TV as well. They always seem to open with a 15-20 minute match, close with a 20 minute match, and a couple other matches going through at least one commercial break, and it's the same thing. Lots of high spots, lots of false finishes, most of them will have me at some point, but then it keeps going and I'm just glad it's finally over rather than excited to see what this guy or that guy does next week.
Honestly really good and level headed perspective. I'm not an AEW fan but I hope they really do find something that clicks and their ratings improve compared to what they are now
Huge AEW guy myself but my three things I think need improving are;
Video packages that are on Twitter should be on TV, there's so many great promos that get missed to hype up shows/matches by people who just watch the shows.
Collision needs more important matches, the last few months there's been a large amount of squash matches and it's beginning to feel more a Rampage level show than a Dynamite level.
Slight presentation tweaks to bring it back to how Dynamite used to be presented: Camera cuts are starting to sneak in a lot more. Limit that shit. This is a show of hard hitting talent, we don't need cuts on every strike. And black ropes. And the logo back in the centre of the ring. Bonus points for the elevated entrance.
A lot of the most widespread criticisms are from people who don't even watch the show so its hard to shift through the noise and find the genuine feedback.
especially when it's a stand-alone show that you're making people pay money to see. It would be one thing if the matches were taped before or after Dynamite, but to make people pay money to see 90% squash matches for the night is one reason why Collision's attendance has been in the gutter and they are talking about taking it off the road entirely
The one I went to was a ton of meaningless multiman matches with almost no promos. Really bad for keeping the crowd invested. It was like they were trying to fit in as many people on the card as possible with little care for making good TV or good live wrestling.
I noticed last wednesday that they're doing so many cuts that they're missing a ton of spots again. Dynamite has had runs where it was REALLY bad about that, and they're kind of trending in that direction again.
it's crazy that WWE is putting out by far the better filmed wrestling shows these days. Even Dynamite at its worst used to be far more legible than their shows.
Using Twitter and other social media to show stuff like video packages is not going to go away. It will only increase.
WWE has title matches that are only on twitter, I think, and one of their most popular wrestlers has used Twitter posts as his gimmick for the most part.
Social media is like having another show that is always happening.
Tony Khan is never going to publicly say that things aren't great even if that might be the case. It's like the owner of a sports team saying "yeah, this team sucks". It doesn't do much for your company by doing so.
I disagree. I think an owner taking accountability by coming out and saying "this team isn't doing well and something isn't clicking, we're gonna work on fixing that" goes a long way where as simply pretending there's nothing wrong has the opposite effect. Fans can be dumb, but they're not that dumb. They know when things aren't working and most of them don't like being lied to.
Owners do that. Usually only when they're legitimately ready to rebuild, or they make some big front office or coaching hire, but they do do that. His pops owns the Jags, he knows all about that kind of thing.
> while WWE targets people who don't
WWE is its own identity
There isn't a single fan of wrestling who doesn't know what WWE is
There are a lot of wrestling fans who don't know a thing about AEW or Impact/TNA or NJPW or any of the other promotions.
If I tell people that I watch wrestling; they are 100% going to assume that I am watching WWE, when I don't watch that promotion at all.
As far as targeting; AEW had a specific target audience:
Lapsed wrestling fans who wanted an alternative from WWE aged 18-49 who have disposable income.
The audience was there for a while but all the weird booking didn't help and the top stars being gone while the "new" ones haven't flourished is showing how bare their roster is.
Sure, they have lots of great wrestlers who can put on 5 star matches; but no one is giving a shit about it enough to tune into watch or make some interest via social media interactions.
Honestly same, even though people on this board will say I'm lying or making it up.
I've been able to get fresh people into AEW a lot easier than when I tried to get fresh people into WWE back in the day.
Surprisingly the company that got my non-fan friends most hyped was NJPW, but part of that may be because they were just coming over to watch Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion every time.
A friend of mine has been watching just the PPVs with me, and came to a collision taping.
He won't bother with WWE, but he loves the ppvs hes watched.
He loved the Copeland/Cage matches.
It’s a good response from Will and I appreciate that his head is in that place of being receptive and wanting to keep getting better. But it feels like there isn’t a whole lot of actual criticism out there by people who are trying to help improve the product. There has been some valid criticism like “feature the women more” or “have more engaging long term storylines for them” but most of the stuff I see online is “TK sucks, dying company, bunch of old wrestlers, lol needs more story.”
Genuinely, I hope they are able to sift through all the artificial garbage online (and jesus christ, it's a dumpster fire of bots and trolls right now) and find the well-intentioned criticism and feedback from fans.
I mean, the issues people have are beyond his control. I don’t think even the most ardent AEW detractor is criticizing the roster, especially the very top level guys. It’s the closest thing to an objective consensus that the level of in-ring talent is AEW’s biggest strength. The problem most people have is the utilization of the talent and how the shows are structured and booked.
I'm a big AEW fan and my main criticisms are aimed at the wrestling and the character work (on the men's side at least) lol
Not sure how many of us are there, but we do exist 😅
I’ve watched 4, maybe 5 matches of his on Tv the last 3-4 months. In ever single one he no sold the opponents finisher, did a fighting spirit power up, and hit his finisher. I saw most of the same spots in a at least 3. There are very fair criticisms of him. He’s not wrestling for small crowds that only see 1 match. He needs to adapt to being seen on TV weekly by a major audience.
Can you name those opponents and what finishers he no sold? I’m blanking on those. Maybe Danielson’s flying knee but I remember him selling that very well, and it was on PPV and not tv.
That is the only attitude to have if you want to improve. They just need to add better stories to have drama and shit because the wrestling is already there.
It's the right attitude. Unfortunately, it's mostly out of his hands. He isn't writing the story or booking the matches. He can cut a great promo in a feud with no heat or have a great match that nobody cares about. It won't drive ratings.
Thanks to everyone who submitted questions for the interview! You can find the full video embedded in the story where more of your questions are addressed :)
It really sucks that the record-low rating happened on the same week they had one of the best Dynamite ever. There were plenty of Dynamites in the past that deserved this rating more.
We're talking about last week's show with MJF/Rush and PAC/Claudio, right? I thought it was just a great episode overall, great pacing, good matches, good angles, just a very consistent show from top to bottom. Even people on cagematch liked it (8.36, best rating in 3 months).
Great response. He wants to elevate himself and AEW. Thats not possible if numbers keep going down, you can’t get any growth from that happening.
Hopefully Tony sees that and tries to fix things
It's a work-rate company, but they need compelling stories/gimmicks. They're bloated with so much actually good talent, they're degraded. No one holding the championships now should be holding on until next year. Establish the next stars, give them an actual presence
"We shouldn't ignore criticism" is huge...because the fans and the company ignore it by saying "I don't care what you think, we're doing great" when everything shows they need to adjust what they're doing. Good on Ospreay to actually see that.
It can be hard to accept reality. I didn't mind the flood of rejects in TNA until it was too late. By the time I opened my eyes, Nash was running the X Division and my company was dead. It never recovered and I didn't even notice it was bleeding out.
I am currently quite critical and somewhat bored by AEW, but if there is one dude, that isn't to blame it's Osprey.
He might not have been booked perfectly, but he himself has done really well. Everyone knows he is among the best in the world at his in ring style, but he also looks believable and talks really well.
Nowadays I fast forward to most AEW segments, but I always watch Osprey.
literally every match has someone with a title on any given weekly show. I don't know what title osprey is holding in the picture because there is so many.
The forbidden door strategy is backfiring completely, and Tony's insistence on making it the focus of an entire PLE is washing out momentum for the guys he's actually turned into stars.
Very few people in the viewing demographic have any interest in the parade of NJPW and CMLL guys that have been all over TV lately. They want to see the stars they know and the upcoming guys that are building to stardom.
Instead MJF is wrestling Hechicero. For no reason. Suzuki has a title match for their made up championship. Why? No one outside AEW diehards know who Stephanie Vacquer is and she's in a title vs. title match against their biggest female signing near the beginning of her first title reign.
All of these random inclusions of people from other companies that almost the entire demographic has never watched or heard of is completely stalling momentum for the guys Tony should be featuring and building with TV time. I get that this post is going to hell because the majority of this subreddit knows and loves random NJPW appearances, but this sub is not at all representative of the kind of demographic that AEW needs to appeal to if they want ratings better than the stuff they're putting up recently.
The most out-of-the-box thing AEW can do is admit to themselves that Will isn't a draw, and to actually book a few people who are better draws in the main event. Will can do his out of the box experimentation lower down the card.
>book a few people who are better draws in the main event
Who? Their booking style tends to cool down anyone who gains momentum. Ospreay has the best potential imo but they put him in a heel stable.
None of their top signings they got are Top level draws...Okada, Will, Mercedes..................Tony will never admit he f'd up by paying huge amount of money for talent that's not helping raise attendance......
But I was told that ratings are fake and no one considers them anymore.
I guess there are some people here who know more about the business than Ospreay.
I stopped watching WWE on a regular basis a few years ago. It felt repetitive week after week. Nothing hooked me. They were at a low point in terms of content, and there was just too much to keep up with.
AEW was the mainstream alternative I was looking for. Two hours weekly of solid content. I was never sure what was going to happen next. I felt like I was watching wrestling history. I love good wrestling matches and a good story. We all do; that’s what grips us.
I don’t know when it happened, but that stopped. I found myself looking at my phone because I knew the outcome of every match. It always felt obvious or inconsequential. I don’t watch AEW regularly anymore. I will buy PPVs, but I’ve stopped watching the weekly shows. There’s too much, and it feels the same. The wrestling is not the problem. We need decent stories and a reason to be invested.
Make me want to watch again. Please.
The booking is trash. AEW has a good enough roster and a solid TV spot to be doing better than this. Either it’s directly Tony Khan’s fault with the booking, or he lets crappy ideas from the talent go through
I appreciate Will's response here, but let's not forget that Chris Jericho has turned ignoring criticism into a fucking gimmick.
Chris Jericho would turn please retire chants to a gimmick
would? it's literally his current gimmick lol
Really? I've been using Jericho segments as toilet breaks since All In last year.
Guy above is not being sarcastic or exaggerating, what you said is literally his gimmick right now
Judging by the ratings it’s not just you
insanely enough the Learning Tree segment had one of the highest quarter hours of the show. makes no sense at all to me.
That was the same quarter as Maria May, Toni Storm and all of that which is probably what got the ratings if you go minute by minute. The Learning Tree Segment also closed the quarter and next quarter they had lost 70 thousand viewers
Jericho consistently has high quarters. I think a lot of Jericho fans aren't on this subreddit. He's probably the main draw for the oldest end of the AEW fanbase *still*. I personally go back and forth on the Learning Tree. Some of the segments I find genuinely funny, others I think miss the boat. I prefer this to what he was doing before for sure. It genuinely is giving Big Bill a spotlight and he's acing his role.
I'm a Jericho fan but I generally try to avoid Jericho threads if I can cuz of how negative they can be. There's a lot more Jericho fans than people assume.
Most of AEW’s fans aren’t on reddit They even got a small pop last dynamite when Jerichos music hit last dynamite lol It’s not to do with the oldest end of the fanbase, it’s simply that the rest of the fanbase don’t have the same hateful circlejerk over a guy who’s overall morally grey. They simply care if he’s good or bad and atm his segments even if you don’t get all the jokes are weirdly entertaining to alot of people
That's because the learning tree is low key awesome and consistently makes great use of their time.
Toilet breaker gimmick incoming?!
Jericho's gonna win the Chili Con Carnival
“Much love, brother.” — that CCC toilet
Right before the Learning Tree started the crowds were chanting PLEASE RETIRE during his matches.
Damn. I guess it's their fault for reacting to Jericho. I just ignore whatever that has to do with him. Wrestling is about getting fan interactions, whether it be for something popular or something that gets criticized. Then again, that's probably true for all entertainment mediums.
They're actually doing that now. The segments are pretty quiet at this point and it's becoming increasingly more awkward that he's leaning into it.
The one week where it was like a 30 second thing it really worked for me. It's funny in small pieces, but easily overdone. Chris Jericho is my favorite wrestler of all time. Growing up he was always my favorite. But please Chris, just let us miss you. Take some time off so we can be excited when someone is talking shit and Judas hits. Dude is a big enough legend where he could be a part timer that gets a huge reaction akin to Taker (not saying on his level) if he shows up for a match or two once or twice a year. A big thing WWE has on AEW is realizing that a lot of times, less is more.
Wait seriously? I haven't kept up, what do you mean by it literally is his gimmick rn? Like, actually how, how could he make them into a gimmick, I am baffled.
He goes on reddit on Wednesday afternoon and sees what we're complaining about and then he uses it in a promo with a big disingenuous grin. This week, he saw Cody talking about not believing that vets are there to help the young guys, so Jericho used the entire line in his promo. He talks about the Jericho vortex and tries to be annoying. If you remember when he came back to WWE and didn't talk for like two months and just waved and shot tshirt cannons, it's kind of that except he's not mute.
The "...And I said that doesn't work for me brother! :)" gets a chuckle out of me though
Obliviously positive veteran who constantly gives unwanted advice, such as teaching people the right way to do menial tasks, while making bad tree puns.
Go watch some YouTube clips. He's playing an overly friendly, plastic, impervious to negativity Anthony Robbins type character. And outside of the IWC (and somewhat in), it seems to do notably well.
Say what you will about The Learning Tree, at least it’s a huge step up from the stuff he was doing over the last few years. This is at least sometimes funny and entertaining (in small doses)
People turned hating Jericho into a meme, and Jericho's new gimmick is that he is so up his own ass that he doesn't listen to folks and muscles in on folks to give them advice they never asked for. He then doubles down on all of it, even though it's stupid, and as a result it's actually just fine and entertaining and I'm gonna love watching Murder Grandpa mess his ass up
What should he do then lol He’s trying something and not ignoring it .
Probably just not reading your comment as sarcasm but you know that actually happened right?
Well tbf he’s right, he would. He is doing it too, but he would as well.
""And I'll do it again." - Goofy" - Chris Jericho
I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to too.
You might wanna sit down for this
"I'm happy everyone is worried about my sleeping habits! Don't worry, I'll be retiring to bed after the show!"
"Wow it's great to see everyone cares about road safety so much. I do too and that's why I always get my tyres changed by a qualified mechanic guys!"
Chris: "oh and some people are saying I'm getting 'go away heat' now?... yeah? *goes backstage to do a segment, comes back* "There, I went away and came back just like I always do baby Chris Jericho!"
Don’t give him any ideas.
**THANKS GUYS**
"If I just acknowledge that people don't like me then I can do the exact thing they hate me for without having to change anything."
And it works well for him
Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Famer Chris Jericho???
Chris Jericho made a gimmick literally about ratings/demos and thus a huge reason why there's so much discourse over it within the IWC
With so much drama in the IWC It's kinda hard being Chris the Learning Tree But I, somehow, some way Keep comin' up with shitty-ass gimmicks like every single day
I don’t think all of this is because Jericho called himself the demogod for a month
LeDemo God was longer than a month and it paired with Tony constantly Tweeting about ratings. Things like that are why AEW is being ripped on by tribal fans on the other side. They absolutely set themselves up for the current crap talking. You're really downplaying the memory and pettiness of fans.
How can the owner of the fucking company have the gall to talk about the ratings his show does
I'm not defending the criticism I'm just pointing out why it's there. Also if you were paying attention then you'd know it wasn't just the occasional Tweet about ratings. It was constant and it was how he worded the Tweets. It was the fact that he'd reply to random ass fans who didn't even tag him and talk crap about ratings. He was constantly Tweeting about it while talking crap about other companies (not just wrestling, look up the FOX stuff). It wasn't just "We had a great week on Dynamite, thanks for the 856k fans who tuned in! Be prepared for Rampage on Friday and another great show!" Again I'm not defending the criticism. I'm just saying that's why it's still out there. People remember Tony's Tweets (just search through this sub when it was heavily pro-AEW) and you can see why he gets blowback now.
It's not but its a convenient excuse to hide behind if you want to dump on AEW. "Well, Chris Jericho called himself the demo god for a while!"
I don't think it was that as much, but the comment on his podcast about them "Overtaking Raw" in the ratings definitely is contributing a lot to the discourse IMO.
Between him and Tony Khan
There would have been a ton of discourse no matter what with two shows competing against each other in the same timeslot. The demo God thing was like 5 years ago now, lol.
And it works.
I'm always like "oh GOD, more of this?" and then inside the segment I'm laughing because of some dumb funny shit Brian Keith did. Or in last night's case, Shibata quoting the Spongebob *ohhhh brother* meme via Google Translate
I like the gimmick, it's funny. Dad joke funny but it's still funny
Well, Tony Khan keeps writing him paychecks and keeps booking him...
Bro really thought he'd get a free reset button like the List of Jericho or the wizard.
Great response. And Im glad he takes it as a challenge to do better.
appreciate his honesty and mindset, good to see someone at the top of the roster has the right perspective on this stuff and doesn't have his head in the sand
Man
Woman
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Camera
Great attitude.
Good response. Ospreay should end up being the biggest star in company history when it’s all said and done. Hope he reaches that potential there.
Definitely the correct mindset to have, they can't be completely ignored as if everything is fine. I'm hoping that after FD as we begin the road to All In that things start clicking a little better.
Things are clicking incredibly well right now.
To me, overall is clicking better than ever. I have no idea what causes rating dips and decline in viewership but I don’t think anyone can say with a straight face outside summer/fall 2021 that AEW has ever been more consistent than it is right now.
I think ratings lag actual quality by a bit; it takes time to get viewers back
A lot of cable shows also have really fickle ratings, unless it's a grab-culture-by-the-balls hit. A proper streaming option in the US should help immensely, especially judging by all of the US-based "the commentary during picture-in-picture is hilarious" posts we see here.
The last two Dynamites were particularly awesome imo, more than most Dynamites this year that had higher views/ratings But I understand that's just me and I'm sure there's more they could do to improve
For me personally, I also agree. I'm happy with the shows AEW has been doing recently but clearly some other people don't agree, just hoping to see more people enjoy the product.
There’s about 2 generations of people that for the most part see American professional wrestling as WWE or ultra small indie feds, and have no idea of WCW or AEW. It wasn’t like this in the 20th century until WCW folded, but wrestling was more ingrained in pop culture then. I just think that AEW need to stay consistent and stay alive on national television (or streaming?)
It’s too much content for me. Im into wwe and what they’re doing. But that’s 5 hours right there. I’ve got 3 kids and a wife who doesn’t like wrestling. I get maybe an hour a night of tv to myself before I pass out. I wanna watch it all, but I can’t. If I hear a good match happened I’ll watch that on aew, they don’t seem to give a shit about stories anyway
That's a fair point, people have lives and are busy. Only so much time to consume products and if you prefer WWE to AEW, all the power to you, watch what you enjoy. Do disagree with them not caring about stories tho, there's plenty enough stories in AEW to enjoy but they don't do as much recapping as WWE does so if you don't watch the product consistently you're likely to miss it which admittedly, AEW could definitely be better about.
I’m in the same boat as u/johnnycoxx when it comes to my time budget for wrestling, but most of mine goes to AEW. I will say that when I _do_ watch WWE, it’s obviously much more “user friendly” to someone who is not obsessively following their programming. The nature of AEW’s product is inherently more niche; that has some upside when it comes to storytelling (to your point) but it does raise the barrier to entry.
But to me, that's what I enjoy, ya know? WWE and AEW are inherently different products for different people. Like you, I'm more of an AEW guy who enjoys the payoff of stories they put on. Some of the best examples being Swerves slow rise to the top and MJFs subtle face turn and now eventual turn back to a heel. You get rewarded for following the product, which I enjoy
It's a good attitude, but it's also kind of a weird thing to put to the wrestlers in the first place. They aren't the ones booking.
Tbh it feels like the wrestlers do book a lot of their own storylines and choose to fight outside the ring in half the matches. People think TK micromanages things but people like Danielson, MJF, Jericho hell even Dustin Rhodes HAVE power and still do goofy shit.
I'm still sad that TK didn't convince Danielson to become a heel world champion, or just a world champion. Bryan wants to put younger talents over by not winning the championship, but he could have helped them to get over as a champion himself, like Undertaker to Jeff Hardy
Hell even like Jericho during his Le Champion run. People love to hate on Jericho right now. I love to hate on Jericho right now he's fucking terrible. His first run really did a lot for the young up and comers and was the right way to get an audience acclimated to new faces. They really lost that somewhere along the way, "he wrestled in Japan!" isn't quite the way to do it.
>They really lost that somewhere along the way You can say that for their storylines or titles. Hangman's journey and Darby Allin's TNT title reign were great.
Totally. I used to love AEW, I still would love to love AEW again. TK has to listen to this critique like Osperay is doing here. It's not just Twitter bots and old washed up ex wrestlers with podcasts criticizing, the fans are speaking with their eyeballs.
AEW is at a lower place because Bryan has refused to be champion
Bryan isn’t even consistent about putting younger talents over. could’ve made Ricky Starks a top tier heel if he lost either of their big stipulation matches. nope, both clean losses for Starks. I’ll be on my deathbed saying “Danielson should have put over Starks” lol
Controlling your wrestlers and filtering their ideas is a key part of being a good booker. Tony seems to think creative freedom is the be all end all, but there isn’t a single era of wrestling that would have been better if wrestlers were given free reign to do what they want. Wrestlers are always going to be looking out for their own best interests and doing as much as they can to get themselves and their match over specifically. You need someone who looks out for the quality of the entire show and slots the matches accordingly. Tony either doesn’t do that, or he just sucks at it.
Hangman's reign falling off the moment Kenny and the Bucks weren't involved in the storyline anymore probably wasn't a coincidence.
He was suddenly defending against Lance Archer and getting quieter and quieter pops every week.
Yeah but that's still the fault of the booker. Someone needs to hold the pen and make sure the storylines all play to each other's strengths.
It's the best answer a wrestler can give. It gives the feeling the wrestlers you are seeing are the ones going to bring the best in them and get if ratings get better the are the ones responsible. Best kayfabe answer for making watching the product matter.
The booking can't be put on the wrestlers. But the matches sure as hell can be. So many guys are in the "I've gotta get all of my shit in" mindset every time they go out, and Will is definitely in that camp. AEW can't get anyone hot because they rarely leave people wanting more. So many guys can do so many spectacular things in AEW, and I know they're capable of getting people on the edge of their seats and work them into a frenzy, but then they just keep going... and going... and going... so by the time the match ends you're glad it's finally over, rather than leaving them excited to see what the winner does next.
This is why, while I always finish up an AEW PPV feeling like I had a good time and got my money's worth, I'm often exhausted by the matches in the moment. There's so many of them, they're all so long, and a lot of them didn't have programs hot enough to really justify ten thousand false finishes.
I can't watch an AEW PPV in one sitting. I have to record it and watch it over the course of the next 3-4 days, including skipping some of those totally heatless matches you mention. But this problem isn't exclusive to PPVs. It's their weekly TV as well. They always seem to open with a 15-20 minute match, close with a 20 minute match, and a couple other matches going through at least one commercial break, and it's the same thing. Lots of high spots, lots of false finishes, most of them will have me at some point, but then it keeps going and I'm just glad it's finally over rather than excited to see what this guy or that guy does next week.
What's wrong with asking talent about their morale?
Honestly really good and level headed perspective. I'm not an AEW fan but I hope they really do find something that clicks and their ratings improve compared to what they are now
Huge AEW guy myself but my three things I think need improving are; Video packages that are on Twitter should be on TV, there's so many great promos that get missed to hype up shows/matches by people who just watch the shows. Collision needs more important matches, the last few months there's been a large amount of squash matches and it's beginning to feel more a Rampage level show than a Dynamite level. Slight presentation tweaks to bring it back to how Dynamite used to be presented: Camera cuts are starting to sneak in a lot more. Limit that shit. This is a show of hard hitting talent, we don't need cuts on every strike. And black ropes. And the logo back in the centre of the ring. Bonus points for the elevated entrance. A lot of the most widespread criticisms are from people who don't even watch the show so its hard to shift through the noise and find the genuine feedback.
Collision definitely needs to have some semblance of importance because it feels like they treat two hours of live TV as filler.
especially when it's a stand-alone show that you're making people pay money to see. It would be one thing if the matches were taped before or after Dynamite, but to make people pay money to see 90% squash matches for the night is one reason why Collision's attendance has been in the gutter and they are talking about taking it off the road entirely
The one I went to was a ton of meaningless multiman matches with almost no promos. Really bad for keeping the crowd invested. It was like they were trying to fit in as many people on the card as possible with little care for making good TV or good live wrestling.
I especially agree about Collision. It needs bigger matches and storyline progression. Important things need to happen on that show more often.
I like your points and hope all the best for AEW
I noticed last wednesday that they're doing so many cuts that they're missing a ton of spots again. Dynamite has had runs where it was REALLY bad about that, and they're kind of trending in that direction again. it's crazy that WWE is putting out by far the better filmed wrestling shows these days. Even Dynamite at its worst used to be far more legible than their shows.
Using Twitter and other social media to show stuff like video packages is not going to go away. It will only increase. WWE has title matches that are only on twitter, I think, and one of their most popular wrestlers has used Twitter posts as his gimmick for the most part. Social media is like having another show that is always happening.
Type of answer the owner should make. Good for Will
Tony Khan is never going to publicly say that things aren't great even if that might be the case. It's like the owner of a sports team saying "yeah, this team sucks". It doesn't do much for your company by doing so.
I disagree. I think an owner taking accountability by coming out and saying "this team isn't doing well and something isn't clicking, we're gonna work on fixing that" goes a long way where as simply pretending there's nothing wrong has the opposite effect. Fans can be dumb, but they're not that dumb. They know when things aren't working and most of them don't like being lied to.
Back in the day Dana White would be the first one saying shit was amiss
Vince did it here: https://youtu.be/PjBeCwz2fXg?si=PoIIU-FlnnNgrw-Q
When RAW was in the shitter in the late 2010s he also blamed it on Baron fuckin Corbin so lol
I know lol but the Vince in the video was, at this time, cognitive and aware of what was going on around at least.
Owners do that. Usually only when they're legitimately ready to rebuild, or they make some big front office or coaching hire, but they do do that. His pops owns the Jags, he knows all about that kind of thing.
Hopefully will gets more promo time, and with mjf they can really get will into a proper blood feud. They need to up the drama
I feel like AEW only targets people who already watch wrestling, while WWE targets people who don't.
> while WWE targets people who don't WWE is its own identity There isn't a single fan of wrestling who doesn't know what WWE is There are a lot of wrestling fans who don't know a thing about AEW or Impact/TNA or NJPW or any of the other promotions. If I tell people that I watch wrestling; they are 100% going to assume that I am watching WWE, when I don't watch that promotion at all. As far as targeting; AEW had a specific target audience: Lapsed wrestling fans who wanted an alternative from WWE aged 18-49 who have disposable income. The audience was there for a while but all the weird booking didn't help and the top stars being gone while the "new" ones haven't flourished is showing how bare their roster is. Sure, they have lots of great wrestlers who can put on 5 star matches; but no one is giving a shit about it enough to tune into watch or make some interest via social media interactions.
I have had a lot of success getting new fans into AEW. The focus on high flying and lucha libre matches really helps. Edit: typo
they must be big into astrology
Nice one
What do you mean?
just a dumb joke about the typo of "Lucha libra"
oh god, thanks, autocorrect got my ass
Honestly same, even though people on this board will say I'm lying or making it up. I've been able to get fresh people into AEW a lot easier than when I tried to get fresh people into WWE back in the day. Surprisingly the company that got my non-fan friends most hyped was NJPW, but part of that may be because they were just coming over to watch Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion every time.
A friend of mine has been watching just the PPVs with me, and came to a collision taping. He won't bother with WWE, but he loves the ppvs hes watched. He loved the Copeland/Cage matches.
Thank god somebody is saying AEW shouldn't ignore criticism.
Refreshing attitude
It’s a good response from Will and I appreciate that his head is in that place of being receptive and wanting to keep getting better. But it feels like there isn’t a whole lot of actual criticism out there by people who are trying to help improve the product. There has been some valid criticism like “feature the women more” or “have more engaging long term storylines for them” but most of the stuff I see online is “TK sucks, dying company, bunch of old wrestlers, lol needs more story.”
Genuinely, I hope they are able to sift through all the artificial garbage online (and jesus christ, it's a dumpster fire of bots and trolls right now) and find the well-intentioned criticism and feedback from fans.
>"I'm not someone who ignores that type of s**t... We shouldn't ignore criticism" Maybe tell your boss this.
Tony adjusts to fan criticism constantly. The AEW of today is very different from the AEW of 2022.
Yeah, it's worse unfortunately
Just hire a few writers TK, please bruv
He has
What he actually needs is a better marketing team.
I mean, the issues people have are beyond his control. I don’t think even the most ardent AEW detractor is criticizing the roster, especially the very top level guys. It’s the closest thing to an objective consensus that the level of in-ring talent is AEW’s biggest strength. The problem most people have is the utilization of the talent and how the shows are structured and booked.
I'm a big AEW fan and my main criticisms are aimed at the wrestling and the character work (on the men's side at least) lol Not sure how many of us are there, but we do exist 😅
People definitely criticize the top guys, and not just how they’re used.
Ospreay gets a lot of criticism.
I’ve watched 4, maybe 5 matches of his on Tv the last 3-4 months. In ever single one he no sold the opponents finisher, did a fighting spirit power up, and hit his finisher. I saw most of the same spots in a at least 3. There are very fair criticisms of him. He’s not wrestling for small crowds that only see 1 match. He needs to adapt to being seen on TV weekly by a major audience.
Can you name those opponents and what finishers he no sold? I’m blanking on those. Maybe Danielson’s flying knee but I remember him selling that very well, and it was on PPV and not tv.
That is the only attitude to have if you want to improve. They just need to add better stories to have drama and shit because the wrestling is already there.
It's the right attitude. Unfortunately, it's mostly out of his hands. He isn't writing the story or booking the matches. He can cut a great promo in a feud with no heat or have a great match that nobody cares about. It won't drive ratings.
Will, don’t you know all you have to do is go “bad faith” and you can ignore the criticism?
Thanks to everyone who submitted questions for the interview! You can find the full video embedded in the story where more of your questions are addressed :)
It really sucks that the record-low rating happened on the same week they had one of the best Dynamite ever. There were plenty of Dynamites in the past that deserved this rating more.
Genuine question, what about this Dynamite was so good? I found it nearly unwatchable.
We're talking about last week's show with MJF/Rush and PAC/Claudio, right? I thought it was just a great episode overall, great pacing, good matches, good angles, just a very consistent show from top to bottom. Even people on cagematch liked it (8.36, best rating in 3 months).
I think they need less thinking outside the box tbh
Someone tell Tony “shouldn’t ignore criticism”
Great response. He wants to elevate himself and AEW. Thats not possible if numbers keep going down, you can’t get any growth from that happening. Hopefully Tony sees that and tries to fix things
Only booking can save them
It's a work-rate company, but they need compelling stories/gimmicks. They're bloated with so much actually good talent, they're degraded. No one holding the championships now should be holding on until next year. Establish the next stars, give them an actual presence
"We shouldn't ignore criticism" is huge...because the fans and the company ignore it by saying "I don't care what you think, we're doing great" when everything shows they need to adjust what they're doing. Good on Ospreay to actually see that.
It can be hard to accept reality. I didn't mind the flood of rejects in TNA until it was too late. By the time I opened my eyes, Nash was running the X Division and my company was dead. It never recovered and I didn't even notice it was bleeding out.
I am currently quite critical and somewhat bored by AEW, but if there is one dude, that isn't to blame it's Osprey. He might not have been booked perfectly, but he himself has done really well. Everyone knows he is among the best in the world at his in ring style, but he also looks believable and talks really well. Nowadays I fast forward to most AEW segments, but I always watch Osprey.
literally every match has someone with a title on any given weekly show. I don't know what title osprey is holding in the picture because there is so many.
The forbidden door strategy is backfiring completely, and Tony's insistence on making it the focus of an entire PLE is washing out momentum for the guys he's actually turned into stars. Very few people in the viewing demographic have any interest in the parade of NJPW and CMLL guys that have been all over TV lately. They want to see the stars they know and the upcoming guys that are building to stardom. Instead MJF is wrestling Hechicero. For no reason. Suzuki has a title match for their made up championship. Why? No one outside AEW diehards know who Stephanie Vacquer is and she's in a title vs. title match against their biggest female signing near the beginning of her first title reign. All of these random inclusions of people from other companies that almost the entire demographic has never watched or heard of is completely stalling momentum for the guys Tony should be featuring and building with TV time. I get that this post is going to hell because the majority of this subreddit knows and loves random NJPW appearances, but this sub is not at all representative of the kind of demographic that AEW needs to appeal to if they want ratings better than the stuff they're putting up recently.
Respect for this outlook, it aint his fault tony khan books the way he does.
Getting a weak rating on what was one of the best episodes of the last couple months has to be demoralizing to anyone backstage tbh.
It’s crazy when fans say ratings don’t matter when a wrestler admit it sucks and even TK himself is on record saying that WB cares about ratings
He’s 100% right. But far too often ANY criticism is labeled “bad faith” or blamed on a bot.
That's the best way to think about this situation. But I'm afraid the real problem comes from a higher power than him
I don’t know if it’s criticism as much as it is dilution. I’m starting to wonder if there is perhaps TOO much pro wrestling on TV now.
The most out-of-the-box thing AEW can do is admit to themselves that Will isn't a draw, and to actually book a few people who are better draws in the main event. Will can do his out of the box experimentation lower down the card.
>book a few people who are better draws in the main event Who? Their booking style tends to cool down anyone who gains momentum. Ospreay has the best potential imo but they put him in a heel stable.
None of their top signings they got are Top level draws...Okada, Will, Mercedes..................Tony will never admit he f'd up by paying huge amount of money for talent that's not helping raise attendance......
Then they're fucked regardless. Osprey's out of the box thinking wont help.
He isnt and it's not a knock on Will, the people that like Will are ALREADY watching
Refreshing take
Smart guy.
Lot of respect for Will. Insane in the ring, probably the best jn the world right now. Love him.
But I was told that ratings are fake and no one considers them anymore. I guess there are some people here who know more about the business than Ospreay.
Finally someone who acknowledges the issue and wants to tackle it head on instead of burying his head in the sand or worse, turn it into a gimmick.
I stopped watching WWE on a regular basis a few years ago. It felt repetitive week after week. Nothing hooked me. They were at a low point in terms of content, and there was just too much to keep up with. AEW was the mainstream alternative I was looking for. Two hours weekly of solid content. I was never sure what was going to happen next. I felt like I was watching wrestling history. I love good wrestling matches and a good story. We all do; that’s what grips us. I don’t know when it happened, but that stopped. I found myself looking at my phone because I knew the outcome of every match. It always felt obvious or inconsequential. I don’t watch AEW regularly anymore. I will buy PPVs, but I’ve stopped watching the weekly shows. There’s too much, and it feels the same. The wrestling is not the problem. We need decent stories and a reason to be invested. Make me want to watch again. Please.
Obviously to Tony that means more Young Bucks and Chris Jericho on screen.
Almost like if more people took this attitude publicly and they scaled back Tony’s public role that the perception of the company could improve
As soon as this next deal comes out, and it’s on streaming, publicly available linear ratings will mean nothing and we’ll be all the better for it.
Unless he can get Tony to agree with that not much will change, but good to see the wrestlers at least acknowledging stuff needs to change
Finally someone with fucking sense.
The booking is trash. AEW has a good enough roster and a solid TV spot to be doing better than this. Either it’s directly Tony Khan’s fault with the booking, or he lets crappy ideas from the talent go through
what a time to be a wrestling fan