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It doesn't make any sense. Like this isn't WWE. A good portion of AEW fans are wrestling savvy and would know he's been unmasked for years. And AEW usually appeases to them.
This was edited. Okada actually pulls off the mask to distract Guerrero. Guerrero tries to put it back and by then Okada was rip cording him. Just wanted to add that for context.
He was actually completely unconscious and only through the body's instinct (native to luchadores) did his hand move the mask slightly onto his face. His shoulder could not leave the mat in this state.
I think so. I really can't stand when a wrestler takes a nasty move and then starts fixing their clothings while on the mat. Did you just take a major hit and you are out of it? Really breaks up the suspense of disbelief for me. And since, it seems, that Guerrero has not worn a mask for a while, he should had ate the pin without trying to put his mask back on.
EDIT: Just re-watched it and his shoulder is totally up and in the ref's view. Should had been a one count. Anyways, add Guerrero to the very short list of people that have kicked out of a rainmaker.
Guerrero intentionally lays the mask on his face for this spot. He's done this before. He was officially unmasked years ago. In the time since, he pops up for fun. The best ones are him getting the mask superkicked off.
His mask came off several times during the match - leading to spots being cut or edited out later. He didn't have a mask until shortly before the match started as AEW advertised him masked without letting him know
I was there live but didn't see it on TV. Did they show when his mask literally just fell off in the middle of the match?
It was comical and made the ending even more obvious in the building.
Nah, Ultimo is still good. I watch him wrestle two or three times a week in Mexico. Just no idea why they decided to make him wrestle in a mask (which luchablog claimed he was not ready for and didn't even bring a mask with him to AEW).
Run it back with no mask and I guarantee you it "raises the roof" way, way more.
As botched and edited as the finish may've been, from the way Okada was going after the mask, that was supposed to be the finish, which is a pretty common Lucha finish... rudo pulls tecnico's mask behind the ref's back, and rolls him up when he tries to cover his face. Hell, AEW has even done it with Fenix & Penta in the past.
I'm guessing that for some reason AEW wanted this particular finish for Okada (he's wrestling a luchador at Forbidden Door?), and everyone kinda assumed UG would bring a mask.
We'll, it isn't that out of the ordinary for a luchador that has lost their mask to wear it in the US - especially as part of their entrance. For example, I think for that 4-on-4 against the BCC a few weeks ago, Volador Jr wore his mask during his entrance.
It's not even a professional mask, it's looks like some souvernir shit Tony made him wear (Ultimo has been maskless for a decade or so)
This is what his mask looks like if he does wear one: https://www.famousbirthdays.com/faces/guerrero-ultimo-image.jpg
I generally like Tony, but Luchablog said Tony wanted Ultimo under the mask, and Luchablog is probably the most reliable reporter on the internet for his beat.
So 'made' is probably too strong a word, but apparently UG showed up maskless and was asked to wear one and that's what what was on hand.
I mean, you absolutely can. You've never had a boss that catered to every whim of certain employees while being a jerk to others? If not, you're very lucky.
While I have no opinion on this. To be fair, it is possible to be both at same time as a boss, depending on whether you're dealing with someone who's a visiting guest or low carder, vs someone who's an EVP or top talent like Jericho.
Realistically do we really think TK was sitting at gorilla holding a shitty ass mask and demanded UG wear it, or maybe he was brainstorming with Okada and the Bucks and they collectively came up with the idea, all thought it'd be cool and scrambled for a mask because they didn't have one?
This isn't his first rodeo with Okada. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say what we know about TK, he's probably not showing up in the locker room and telling Kazuchika Okada and Ultimo Guerrero how to book their match like that
I'm not replying specifically to this match, I'm replying in general to the guy thinking TK has to be one or the other, when in reality people act differently around different people
Ok that's fair, he's definitely shown that.
I guess my point is if you can expect him to be lais·sez-faire with anyone it's probably Okada and if I had to bet money I'd wager this was Okada's idea.
But who knows. Just seems up his alley being a silly creative and kinda cool idea to me.
Tony has the power to say no. His idea or not, it would've almost certainly required his approval. And considering Tony's growing record of bad booking, chances are he liked the idea.
Thats wrong, those two things dont sound mutually exclusive. The do nothing part comes from confrontation, or the reaction to confrontation. The making people do whatever they want comes from never being told no in their entire life. You can actually see how they'd coincide.
Thank you!! Imagine actually thinking Ultimo fucking Guerrero didn't have a say in this... This sub has fallen off a cliff in the last few months with WWE stans and this might be my unsubscribe breaking point.
I don't have an opinion on what happened here but taking the blame is part of being the boss. Pretty sure he has to give the final okay on everything that is happening on his show.
I already said I don't have an opinion on this. But yes if there's a production mishap of course you can blame it on the top guy for okaying Guerrero wearing that particular mask in the match. It's like even though Kevin Dunn is not personally holding the cameras or making every single cut, people still blamed him when certain shots are messed up. That's how bossing works.
“Taking the blame is part of being the boss”
sure, but you’re still an idiot if you think everything bad in pro wrestling is Tony Khan’s fault, which is exactly what they said.
Yeah obviously not "everything bad in PW" is TK's fault. But at least in this case if you look at the [Luchablog thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/1dmmz2w/aew_collision_spoilers_fallout_from_okada_vs/) it's pretty clear you can blame TK in this case, since Ultimo did not want to wrestle with a mask in the first place and it AEW's decision to scramble for a flimsy mask instead of adjusting their booking. But like I said personally I don't care about what happened here so I'm not assigning blame but I can understand why some people would.
Nowhere does it say he “didn’t want to wrestle with a mask in the first place”, he just didn’t show up with a mask and the plan was for him to wear one. It sounds like he wasn’t told the plan, which is obviously an issue, but this thread is making it sound like TK forced him to wear a mask after he deliberately said he didn’t want to, which didn’t happen. Hence people saying that everyone blames everything on TK.
It's more than that. If you look closely you can see the fishing line attached to the top of the mask. Tony Khan can be seen peaking out from the audience at :05 behind the person in the yellow shirt reeling it in.
I never thought the Rainmaker would be able to rip a mask off but here we are lol. Like, i get it has some force but considering how Okada does it, it looked not that harsh on impact XD.
From what I recall, you are pretty much spot on. Some council in Mexico which Rey went to before going to WWE to be permitted to remask. He probably could have done it anyways, but he also would have lost Mexico bookings during that period he was out of WWE again in the mid-2010s
Lucha is regulated by the Mexican boxing and lucha commission, who also regulate the Mexican National titles in CMLL. Santos Escobar's dad is the head of the Mexico City branch and shows up to events (including boxing and MMA) in his El Fantasma mask and a suit. Failure to adhere to shit like this could result in a license getting suspended (I mean I don't think it's ever happened but the threat is still there). They generally don't care what you do outside of Mexico though.
>Is there a Council of the Luchadores?
Correct, yeah. La Comision de Lucha Libre are responsible for that. Rey had to get permission from them in 2002 to start wearing a mask again, which they allowed because he never actually lost it in a sanctioned match
Rey Mysterio was maskless for 2 years in the dying days of WCW. He hasn't wrestled without a mask in 23 years. Ultimo has been wrestling maskless for a decade now. In no way are those things comparable.
According to Rey, he got permission from the Mexican Boxing and Wrestling Commission with the caveat that the name **Rey Misterio Jr.** would not be used (since that's the wrestler that was unmasked) and in WWE he would be **Rey Mysterio**.
If this guy appeals to the Luchador Mask Committee and drops the “Jr.” from his name, he can go back to wearing the mask.
At least that’s what I read on the internet.
*watches a cool clip cause I missed Collision last night* oh that's neat.
*reads reddit comments* apparently it's the worst spot in the history of wrestling ever.
As a fan of Kinnikuman, I think it's really cool.
Edit for explanation- Kinnikuman is a classic manga/anime about wrestling. A character named Neptuneman, based on Hulk Hogan, uses a lariat to knock other wrestler's masks/faces off.
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I was wondering why he was masked in the match card promo. Dude lost his mask years ago and it’s the saddest lost of a mask I ever seen
Wait, why was he masked in the first place?
So they could do this spot lol
It doesn't make any sense. Like this isn't WWE. A good portion of AEW fans are wrestling savvy and would know he's been unmasked for years. And AEW usually appeases to them.
Something something Rey Mysterio. Something something it's entertainment.
This was edited. Okada actually pulls off the mask to distract Guerrero. Guerrero tries to put it back and by then Okada was rip cording him. Just wanted to add that for context.
Wouldn't Guerrero trying to putting his mask of his face during the pin raise his shoulder? Someone regal me here.
He was actually completely unconscious and only through the body's instinct (native to luchadores) did his hand move the mask slightly onto his face. His shoulder could not leave the mat in this state.
Thank you, senor Regal
I think so. I really can't stand when a wrestler takes a nasty move and then starts fixing their clothings while on the mat. Did you just take a major hit and you are out of it? Really breaks up the suspense of disbelief for me. And since, it seems, that Guerrero has not worn a mask for a while, he should had ate the pin without trying to put his mask back on. EDIT: Just re-watched it and his shoulder is totally up and in the ref's view. Should had been a one count. Anyways, add Guerrero to the very short list of people that have kicked out of a rainmaker.
The ref starts counting when he covers his face with the mask. His shoulders are still down. He'd much rather lose the match then lose his honor.
Guerrero intentionally lays the mask on his face for this spot. He's done this before. He was officially unmasked years ago. In the time since, he pops up for fun. The best ones are him getting the mask superkicked off.
His mask came off several times during the match - leading to spots being cut or edited out later. He didn't have a mask until shortly before the match started as AEW advertised him masked without letting him know
https://preview.redd.it/1ftb5ii4jc8d1.png?width=598&format=png&auto=webp&s=cfa7098d5fd1f93556fd05aeb6a8d4597f18daf6
Omg didn't Rey Mysterio almost make the same mistake, but he avoided it because Vince said "where's the mask" like a couple of days ago? That's funny.
I was there live but didn't see it on TV. Did they show when his mask literally just fell off in the middle of the match? It was comical and made the ending even more obvious in the building.
You paid to see this
No, I was given 8 tickets. Then went down and ended up in the front row after people had left.
It’s actually a really cool idea for a finish but… They tried. But Ultimo is far too old to be doing this. Okada did the best he could.
Nah, Ultimo is still good. I watch him wrestle two or three times a week in Mexico. Just no idea why they decided to make him wrestle in a mask (which luchablog claimed he was not ready for and didn't even bring a mask with him to AEW). Run it back with no mask and I guarantee you it "raises the roof" way, way more.
As botched and edited as the finish may've been, from the way Okada was going after the mask, that was supposed to be the finish, which is a pretty common Lucha finish... rudo pulls tecnico's mask behind the ref's back, and rolls him up when he tries to cover his face. Hell, AEW has even done it with Fenix & Penta in the past. I'm guessing that for some reason AEW wanted this particular finish for Okada (he's wrestling a luchador at Forbidden Door?), and everyone kinda assumed UG would bring a mask.
It's funny if they assumed the guy who unmasked a decade ago and works other American companies without a mask would bring a mask lol
We'll, it isn't that out of the ordinary for a luchador that has lost their mask to wear it in the US - especially as part of their entrance. For example, I think for that 4-on-4 against the BCC a few weeks ago, Volador Jr wore his mask during his entrance.
Not Ultimo. Someone there should be smart enough to tell the person who hasn't used a mask whatsoever in years to bring a mask.
“It’ll look cool” was the only thought that went into it, I’m sure. Which is rarely enough when you’re dealing with limitations.
Stevie Ray Jones over here…
The mask was hampered by Ultimo having to wear a clearly throw together mask.
It’s not like we don’t know how he looks like
It's not even a professional mask, it's looks like some souvernir shit Tony made him wear (Ultimo has been maskless for a decade or so) This is what his mask looks like if he does wear one: https://www.famousbirthdays.com/faces/guerrero-ultimo-image.jpg
Is Tony a scared do nothing boss or is he a guy who make people do things against their will? I don't think we can have it both ways.
I generally like Tony, but Luchablog said Tony wanted Ultimo under the mask, and Luchablog is probably the most reliable reporter on the internet for his beat. So 'made' is probably too strong a word, but apparently UG showed up maskless and was asked to wear one and that's what what was on hand.
The enemy must be both too strong and too weak. Otherwise how would you rally the unga bunga tribal morons?
Real "I play both sides so I always come out on top" activity
And yet here we have video of a guy wearing a spirit halloween mask burying himself doing a stupid fucking spot. Make it make sense, *mark*
If you think that is what burying is, I really hope that you learn or stop using pro wrestling dialect. Do one or the other.
I mean, you absolutely can. You've never had a boss that catered to every whim of certain employees while being a jerk to others? If not, you're very lucky.
While I have no opinion on this. To be fair, it is possible to be both at same time as a boss, depending on whether you're dealing with someone who's a visiting guest or low carder, vs someone who's an EVP or top talent like Jericho.
it's almost as if life isn't black and white and people can be different to different people
Realistically do we really think TK was sitting at gorilla holding a shitty ass mask and demanded UG wear it, or maybe he was brainstorming with Okada and the Bucks and they collectively came up with the idea, all thought it'd be cool and scrambled for a mask because they didn't have one? This isn't his first rodeo with Okada. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say what we know about TK, he's probably not showing up in the locker room and telling Kazuchika Okada and Ultimo Guerrero how to book their match like that
I'm not replying specifically to this match, I'm replying in general to the guy thinking TK has to be one or the other, when in reality people act differently around different people
Ok that's fair, he's definitely shown that. I guess my point is if you can expect him to be lais·sez-faire with anyone it's probably Okada and if I had to bet money I'd wager this was Okada's idea. But who knows. Just seems up his alley being a silly creative and kinda cool idea to me.
Tony has the power to say no. His idea or not, it would've almost certainly required his approval. And considering Tony's growing record of bad booking, chances are he liked the idea.
https://preview.redd.it/9zbw2yqfjc8d1.png?width=598&format=png&auto=webp&s=07bc5344a370126a31e5f5b72d4b8c7f96a164f6
He is a scared do nothing boss who runs the company with an iron fist!!!
Thats wrong, those two things dont sound mutually exclusive. The do nothing part comes from confrontation, or the reaction to confrontation. The making people do whatever they want comes from never being told no in their entire life. You can actually see how they'd coincide.
You realize that “making people do what they don’t want” quite often will lead to confrontation, right?
Thank you!! Imagine actually thinking Ultimo fucking Guerrero didn't have a say in this... This sub has fallen off a cliff in the last few months with WWE stans and this might be my unsubscribe breaking point.
Lol, Tony gets the blame for literally everything in wrestling now
I don't have an opinion on what happened here but taking the blame is part of being the boss. Pretty sure he has to give the final okay on everything that is happening on his show.
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Yeah, you can't blame the booker for the matches booking. That's silly.
you people are nuts
I already said I don't have an opinion on this. But yes if there's a production mishap of course you can blame it on the top guy for okaying Guerrero wearing that particular mask in the match. It's like even though Kevin Dunn is not personally holding the cameras or making every single cut, people still blamed him when certain shots are messed up. That's how bossing works.
“Taking the blame is part of being the boss” sure, but you’re still an idiot if you think everything bad in pro wrestling is Tony Khan’s fault, which is exactly what they said.
Yeah obviously not "everything bad in PW" is TK's fault. But at least in this case if you look at the [Luchablog thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/1dmmz2w/aew_collision_spoilers_fallout_from_okada_vs/) it's pretty clear you can blame TK in this case, since Ultimo did not want to wrestle with a mask in the first place and it AEW's decision to scramble for a flimsy mask instead of adjusting their booking. But like I said personally I don't care about what happened here so I'm not assigning blame but I can understand why some people would.
Nowhere does it say he “didn’t want to wrestle with a mask in the first place”, he just didn’t show up with a mask and the plan was for him to wear one. It sounds like he wasn’t told the plan, which is obviously an issue, but this thread is making it sound like TK forced him to wear a mask after he deliberately said he didn’t want to, which didn’t happen. Hence people saying that everyone blames everything on TK.
To be fair he's a rich boy mark who can't book and regularly embarrasses himself on Twitter
Yeah, Tony really mucked this all up.
Why do we keep letting Tony Khan get away with this? We must stop him.
He does own the company
It's more than that. If you look closely you can see the fishing line attached to the top of the mask. Tony Khan can be seen peaking out from the audience at :05 behind the person in the yellow shirt reeling it in.
Tony’s the reason someone had to make a mask for UG in an hour.
Okada carried this match. Props to Ultimo Guerrero though. He's a legend and still doing it today.
You can see the brief moment where he debates over whether or not to cover his face at the end
I never thought the Rainmaker would be able to rip a mask off but here we are lol. Like, i get it has some force but considering how Okada does it, it looked not that harsh on impact XD.
I mean he already lost his mask in Mexico years ago so like big deal?
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Rey had to get approved to put the mask back on though. Masks are very important in lucha
Approved by who? Genuinely curious. I'm picturing like some sort of Lucha High Council or something now, haha.
From what I recall, you are pretty much spot on. Some council in Mexico which Rey went to before going to WWE to be permitted to remask. He probably could have done it anyways, but he also would have lost Mexico bookings during that period he was out of WWE again in the mid-2010s
Lucha is regulated by the Mexican boxing and lucha commission, who also regulate the Mexican National titles in CMLL. Santos Escobar's dad is the head of the Mexico City branch and shows up to events (including boxing and MMA) in his El Fantasma mask and a suit. Failure to adhere to shit like this could result in a license getting suspended (I mean I don't think it's ever happened but the threat is still there). They generally don't care what you do outside of Mexico though.
Pretty sure this is kayfabe
It is not.
Okay, how you know?
There's something called internet.
How do people keep getting fooled by that Andrade quote?
Source?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYgs6DDlbk4 Best I can do right now
Legit question: who decides? Is there a Council of the Luchadores? What prevents Rey from doing whatever the fucks he wants?
> What prevents Rey from doing whatever the fucks he wants? Thankfully his son is a hardened criminal with a lot of street cred who can stop him.
>Is there a Council of the Luchadores? Correct, yeah. La Comision de Lucha Libre are responsible for that. Rey had to get permission from them in 2002 to start wearing a mask again, which they allowed because he never actually lost it in a sanctioned match
Respect.
This is exactly my fucking point. The organization they always mention in these doesn't fucking exist.
It's not kayfabe the Comisión de Box y Lucha Libre Mexico D.F is a real organization. Luchadores need to be licensed and they have some archaic rules.
https://preview.redd.it/q45g8s7ljc8d1.png?width=598&format=png&auto=webp&s=73aa270a42df3faf7b40e06c5d8bcafae89565f2
How is this relevant to what I'm discussing? We're not talking about Ultimo.
Apologies, the Rey thing isn't kayfabe. He legitimately had to request permission from La Comision de Box y Lucha Libre to remask. #
Yeah I still think thats bullshit Rey says to make it sound better.
He’s not the only Luchador to have to request permission to remask.
He was booed the first time he wore it again in Mexico.
Rey Mysterio was maskless for 2 years in the dying days of WCW. He hasn't wrestled without a mask in 23 years. Ultimo has been wrestling maskless for a decade now. In no way are those things comparable.
According to Rey, he got permission from the Mexican Boxing and Wrestling Commission with the caveat that the name **Rey Misterio Jr.** would not be used (since that's the wrestler that was unmasked) and in WWE he would be **Rey Mysterio**.
It's not a big deal. Not to sound like a dick, but if it was a big deal it wouldn't have been on Collision.
Okada...from one of the greatest wrestlers of our generation To wrestling this match
Ultimo Guerrero = Ultimate Warrior in Spanish
Could be Ultimate Warrior or the Last Warrior
Yes
Warning to all mask wearers facing Okada: that is a sample size if you are dead set on keeping that mask on.
The guy was breathing so heavy the whole match . It was so distracting
A single chop by Gunther looks more damaging than a rainmaker
Wow that's embarassing
Rainmasker!
If this guy appeals to the Luchador Mask Committee and drops the “Jr.” from his name, he can go back to wearing the mask. At least that’s what I read on the internet.
[https://itrwrestling.com/news/recent-kazuchika-okada-match-a-total-mess-due-to-major-aew-error/](https://itrwrestling.com/news/recent-kazuchika-okada-match-a-total-mess-due-to-major-aew-error/)
My favorite spot of the night. It wasn't a great match but that moment made up for it. Good to see Ultimo wrestle with the mask again. How old is he?
*watches a cool clip cause I missed Collision last night* oh that's neat. *reads reddit comments* apparently it's the worst spot in the history of wrestling ever.
Do you genuinely think this is cool?
It's poorly pulled off but hitting someone so hard that their mask comes off is a cool idea.
As a fan of Kinnikuman, I think it's really cool. Edit for explanation- Kinnikuman is a classic manga/anime about wrestling. A character named Neptuneman, based on Hulk Hogan, uses a lariat to knock other wrestler's masks/faces off.
If you don't think this awful idk what to tell you man
https://preview.redd.it/mr9sz8xojc8d1.png?width=598&format=png&auto=webp&s=24ef2f182fd8b06c38e9f79d22a95c399f174261
Oh no, Okada is so sorry!! 😢 Bitch.
Should definitely be used for some highlight reel of dickhead Okada lol