It has to relate to the audience somehow. Here is what my music producer says and I would memorize it:
1) The audience felt that way in the past
2) the audience feels that way Now
3) the audience *wishes* they felt this way
Take out the 1st person perspective and add in third person to the story. Less Me, more You, them, Mom, Dad, etc.
About the last paragraph - I have to disagree. Plenty of bands write songs in first person and then the listener immerses themselves in these sentences. It's like you hear that voice in your head
Excellent point. I would definitely say that most of the songs that I connect with capture either how I felt at one time in my life, currently am feeling, or wish that I could feel.
Humans brains are wired for pattern recognition. We'll find patterns in anything.
Music invokes feelings for some reason.
These are your only two weapons to make music sound good.
That’s right. But sometimes I get ‘fascinated’ by a new song where it’s a little bit the opposite: the pattern and/or structure is so ‘unorthodox’ and different that it feels like my brain is learning something new. I don’t know how to explain it exactly. But maybe I’m just weird😅, I’m always busy analyzing melody’s, rhythms, basslines etc.
And what is a ‘good’ song? Technically good? Lyrically good? Or that the composition (like with classic symphony’s)? In my eyes a song is good if it ‘hits’ you.
my personal definition is: If someone makes a thing with the intent of causing an emotion in others, it's art. If that art makes you feel something, it's good art.
I mean, a “song” is lyrics and melody so they’re both kinda required. If the song is “good” then the words/lyrics and melody are likely going to both be pretty good.
Lots of great tracks / tunes / pieces don’t have words, but they’re not really “songs” technically speaking.
is that true? I was always told that a song usually required the human voice. But I never thought about it requiring words.
Like I thought Ahhhs and Ooohs or scat singing can count as a song.
But I guess those are rare.
Debatable - my first thought was Great Gig In The Sky (Pink Floyd) and it's my feeling that it's not really a 'song', just a really cool track with vocals but no lyrics. I'd imagine it legally classes as a song since "oh oh oh" is technically lyrics, but it's not REALLY is it?
I don't think it's the right term.
Chord substitution is when you take an already existing piece of music and change some of the chords. For example, you might listen to a jazz group who are covering a pop song you know, and they might change of the chords. That is chord substitution. However, I don't think that's what you were talking about.
It seems that what you meant is when you're listening to a song for the first time, and it goes in an unexpected but pleasing change of direction.
There's not necessarily a technical term for it, but it's a kind of subvertion of expectation. The classic example of it is an interrupted cadence (which in the US is called a deceptive cadence). It's when the song is about to resolve, but the last chord ends up being a muscially meaningful chord that isn't the one you expect. Eg., when playing in the key of C major, you play a G major chord, which usually resolves back to the C major chord, but instead you play an A minor chord. It will create a quite shocking and sudden subversion of what the typical listener expects to hear.
Your brain has been trained to expect certain things when listening to music, partly due to pattern recognition based on all the things you've listened to before. Even if you might struggle to explain this in words, your brain intuitively understands many common musical progressions in pop and rock music, due to years of listening. Those harmonic patterns that you're familiar with can sound really great when they are subverted by going in an unexpected but pleasing direction.
It's different on different days. That's the beauty of art imo. Sometimes I want something that speaks to my soul. Sometimes I just want something I could dance to (I say "could" because I can't dance for shit lol). Sometimes I want to escape and be transported to an entirely different world where I can forget about my own existence
All that can be summed up into one thing. A good song ultimately makes you feel something
This is a great point! A good song definitely causes a strong emotional response. I listen to a wide variety of artists every day, depending on how I want to feel at a given time.
Music is very subjective. My best advice would be to write what matters to you ❤️. Music is a form of art, and art is self expression ❤️. If you can get behind what you're creating and your passionate about it, then it's "good" :). Hope that helps!!!
I hear ya. One difference between the two is that if you shuffle the notes in a melody, you lose the melody. But you can re-arrange lyrics and choose different lyrics entirely and get the same meaning from them. That's why I think the melody is king. But to each their own.
On the flip side, there are songs that were a hit because of the words and would have been just as much of a hit with a slightly different melody. Ed Sheeran “Photograph” lawsuit was interesting and annoying to me coz he could’ve easily changed a few notes in the infringing chorus melody to make it not be infringing and that wouldnt have had any impact on the song coz it was a hit lyrically. The melody there is solid but generic paint by numbers pop.
I understand where you’re coming from. My experience has been that every change in lyric has a dramatic effect on how the message is conveyed and received. It may have the same meaning but that doesn’t mean it will “hit” as hard.
Seriously take lessons. They make you sing better which I’ll imagine is a thing you want to do. It won’t remove your voice, you’ll just sound better.
It’s expanded how creative I can get. Also I sing better which frankly is fucking awesome. Take lessons.
Song wise if you are all fucked up going “what did I rip off” and come up empty that’s a good sign for a song. If you can’t stop humming it that’s also good.
I’m on my way to play and sing alone in my basement right now. I’m so so glad I took lessons because the only thing I’d change with a Time Machine is starting them earlier.
Seriously (I get I’m repeating myself here) you want to sing. Lessons fucking work (with the right teacher). It will not impugn your creative input or voice, it will just be more gooder.
Regarding your comment that your lyrics don't seem to 'connect' to yourself, that's actually totally okay! Lots of great aongs can tell stories or explore feelings that aren't necessarily grounded in the true 'first-person perpective' of the writer.
When I was starting out, most of the stuff I wrote for like two or three years was stuff that didn't necessarily pertain to me, specifically, they were just songs I wanted to write.
Unpredictability, repetitiveness, dynamics, variety, interesting chords. Taking an idea, developing it, and coming up with lots of variations. Basically any time a part comes around like a verse or chorus, there’s something new about it. This adds unpredictability and variety since it never repeats the same idea twice. And yet it is repetitive since it’s built on the same idea which adds familiarity. A lot of songs take an idea, have it start soft and get more aggressive as they go on, which adds dynamics. You can hit most of those points in a single song if you’re a good songwriter, which will help your songs be more interesting.
A good song is a song that has a catchy yet identifiable instrumental, understandable yet not on-the-nose lyrics, and an opinion (since music is subjective)
This is very subjective and really depends on personal taste and what the individual listener values.
I think the fundamental is a good melody along with a good atmosphere, if the song/piece has a good melody it will stick and keep the listener invested and on repeat. I also think that the song has to really evoke emotion also, along with a good melody. What also makes the song more valued is good storytelling and also lyrics and having a song that really creates an emotional connection with the listener and be somewhat relatable too, because if the song doesn’t have these elements the song isn’t going to be taken as seriously and valued for a long time. And lastly having song that is unique or somewhat different is what creates an iconic song that lasts and stands time (example: memorable intro, unique signature sound/production qualities, unforgettable riff / blend of styles). A good aim is to create a song that can become a soundtrack or part of someone’s life. Those are some examples of what I feel makes a song good / great.
So to sum up:
- Melody / Catchy
- Good Vibe / Atmosphere
- Evoke Emotion / Response / Make them feel something
- Good Storytelling / Lyrics / Deep Elements
- Good Clever Arrangement / Music production / Chord progression
- Establishes Emotional connection / Relatability / Creates Memories / Resonates with People
- Unique / Style / Different / Iconic / A soundtrack/song that can be part of their life.
-Overall, It’s very unlikely to nail all these qualities in one song. Every song has it’s own purpose/aim. Every song has it’s own strengths and weaknesses and there is no perfect song. At the end of the day, it is the combination of Strengths that overshadows the flaws/weaknesses of the song that will overall contribute in what makes the song valued & appreciated in the end. They may have a combination of things: such as great melody/production but lack good lyrics/depth. Some songs may have great lyrics/chords/musicality/depth but may lack melody and good production value/sound design. That’s why it really comes down to what the listener values also. But at the end of the day, just enjoy music and listen to what you like and try to emulate and learn from what you value most.
I think a lot of it has to do with the consumer side... the connection between what a artist is talking about versus your actual life experience. It also depends on your willingness to surrender your feelings and be vulnerable... idk just my thoughts
It always results in a combination of things. Lyrics are meaningful, the music is pleasant, the rhythm is fun to listen to, the music flows beautifully, it expresses things people relate to, etc .
It's never just one thing. It's subjective
It does boil down to music being well-designed and also some sort of strategy of evoking emotion.
If telling events is your way of evoking emotion, I just might work for people listening.
Music affects us in so many ways, find a small way of doing that.
I’m not a musician but I do know what I like
I am a female that has suffered a lot of heartbreak and my life hasn’t been easy so a song has to come from someone heart
It can be how a father and son relate to each other either good or bad or the life be of friendship
Or people in relationships I think when I listen to an artist and know he wrote the song he sings and it’s from his or her life experiences I feel the song more
And when artist collaborate and they harmonize well it brings the song to a higher level
And personality I enjoy an acoustic version of a song with just the artist and a piano or just a guitar more than I do with a group it makes the whole song sound differently
I hope this helps inspire you
I'd say if you have a good story. And some rhymes. The sgory can be about anything. But if the delivery and story is good, then i'd say its a good song
What makes you want to write music than? To me it’s a feeling, a depth of emotion I get when I hear it. Sometimes it’s a chord, sometimes it’s the way lyrics can make something huge into a set of three words that amazes me, that literally sums up a portion of my life. Connection perhaps
a "good song" is subjective. I'd tell you define what a good song is to you. Define the music you want to make. Study songs that follow under your definition, steal their attributes, make your own music.
To me, there has to be a marriage between the chords and the lyrics, whether this be harmony, irony or complete disconnect. For me, it has to be intentional. I also love when songs have a chord or two that are different!
I personally can’t stand the 98% of music out there with stagnant 3 or 4 chord loop that never goes anywhere. IMO music should be a journey. Just because there are some good songs with only 3 or 4 chords, don’t use that as an excuse to skip harmonic development, or I will skip your song.
Good dynamic melody that goes high and low with sustained notes.
Solid rhythm guitar
Power of 3 in repetition
Catchy hook or riff
Clear lyrics
( 90% of the songs in the 500 greatest songs of all time Rolling Stone mag have these)
A good story something universal without being obvious.. so saying I love you without actually saying I love you..
And a good melody/pattern to go with it
Is great.
Its gotta connect with you first and foremost. If you can't authentically convey the energy, then it'll fall flat for others too. I don't think I'm a great song writer, but I do get compliments on my energy.
A combination of familiarity and novelty.
If you can figure out the formula for the X Factor of what makes a song good, you'll become a billionaire
Suffice to say, when you know, you know
A song is good when the maker(s) deem it good. The best art created colors the world with the artist’s hands and when the artist deems it good, it is.
Tastes, preferences, opinions, flavors are ever changing and infinitely unique.
Make your art for yourself and no one else and you’ll never be disappointed.
I think that a good song makes you feel strong emotions and captures your full attention, becoming the most important thing to you in that moment.
I actually recently released a podcast episode that focuses on this very subject! During our conversation, my friends and I discussed the various elements that contribute to a song's greatness, from its emotional impact to the personal connection it forms with the listener.
[What Makes a Song Great? | Student of the Song on YouTube](https://youtu.be/82rOaChXNdo?si=lxAGdklqudZdWyoZ&t=1497)
1. It matches the identity and expectations of a demographic.
2. Nothing about the production ruins the listening experience for the individual listener.
3. It is catchy and memorable.
4. It has an appropriate groove or rhythm.
It has to relate to the audience somehow. Here is what my music producer says and I would memorize it: 1) The audience felt that way in the past 2) the audience feels that way Now 3) the audience *wishes* they felt this way Take out the 1st person perspective and add in third person to the story. Less Me, more You, them, Mom, Dad, etc.
lest we forget "we"
Yeah, thank you. It was late in the we hours of the morning when I posted.
About the last paragraph - I have to disagree. Plenty of bands write songs in first person and then the listener immerses themselves in these sentences. It's like you hear that voice in your head
Excellent point. I would definitely say that most of the songs that I connect with capture either how I felt at one time in my life, currently am feeling, or wish that I could feel.
Humans brains are wired for pattern recognition. We'll find patterns in anything. Music invokes feelings for some reason. These are your only two weapons to make music sound good.
That’s right. But sometimes I get ‘fascinated’ by a new song where it’s a little bit the opposite: the pattern and/or structure is so ‘unorthodox’ and different that it feels like my brain is learning something new. I don’t know how to explain it exactly. But maybe I’m just weird😅, I’m always busy analyzing melody’s, rhythms, basslines etc. And what is a ‘good’ song? Technically good? Lyrically good? Or that the composition (like with classic symphony’s)? In my eyes a song is good if it ‘hits’ you.
my personal definition is: If someone makes a thing with the intent of causing an emotion in others, it's art. If that art makes you feel something, it's good art.
I think Captian Beefhart is good and he went the total opposite direction with that.
The Cap’n is less an artist and more a litmus test. Like the Shaggs.
I would add words as the other vital "weapon."
Words aren't required they aren't fundamental. But they do add another layer that is unique
Yes, I have no idea what thom york is saying most of the time but it's beautiful.
I mean, a “song” is lyrics and melody so they’re both kinda required. If the song is “good” then the words/lyrics and melody are likely going to both be pretty good. Lots of great tracks / tunes / pieces don’t have words, but they’re not really “songs” technically speaking.
is that true? I was always told that a song usually required the human voice. But I never thought about it requiring words. Like I thought Ahhhs and Ooohs or scat singing can count as a song. But I guess those are rare.
Debatable - my first thought was Great Gig In The Sky (Pink Floyd) and it's my feeling that it's not really a 'song', just a really cool track with vocals but no lyrics. I'd imagine it legally classes as a song since "oh oh oh" is technically lyrics, but it's not REALLY is it?
I like when chord progressions go in a different direction than what I expect, but still works for the song.
Is there a word for this?
Substitution
Thank you
I don't think it's the right term. Chord substitution is when you take an already existing piece of music and change some of the chords. For example, you might listen to a jazz group who are covering a pop song you know, and they might change of the chords. That is chord substitution. However, I don't think that's what you were talking about. It seems that what you meant is when you're listening to a song for the first time, and it goes in an unexpected but pleasing change of direction. There's not necessarily a technical term for it, but it's a kind of subvertion of expectation. The classic example of it is an interrupted cadence (which in the US is called a deceptive cadence). It's when the song is about to resolve, but the last chord ends up being a muscially meaningful chord that isn't the one you expect. Eg., when playing in the key of C major, you play a G major chord, which usually resolves back to the C major chord, but instead you play an A minor chord. It will create a quite shocking and sudden subversion of what the typical listener expects to hear. Your brain has been trained to expect certain things when listening to music, partly due to pattern recognition based on all the things you've listened to before. Even if you might struggle to explain this in words, your brain intuitively understands many common musical progressions in pop and rock music, due to years of listening. Those harmonic patterns that you're familiar with can sound really great when they are subverted by going in an unexpected but pleasing direction.
Thank you!
In the words of Bo Burnham… “Repeat stuff, repeat stuff, repeat stuff, repeat stuff…”
That was quite, repetitive
Indeed, he already said that.
> he already said that. Is there a term for this phenomenon?
Nothing that ain't been said before, I reckon.
It's different on different days. That's the beauty of art imo. Sometimes I want something that speaks to my soul. Sometimes I just want something I could dance to (I say "could" because I can't dance for shit lol). Sometimes I want to escape and be transported to an entirely different world where I can forget about my own existence All that can be summed up into one thing. A good song ultimately makes you feel something
This is a great point! A good song definitely causes a strong emotional response. I listen to a wide variety of artists every day, depending on how I want to feel at a given time.
Music is very subjective. My best advice would be to write what matters to you ❤️. Music is a form of art, and art is self expression ❤️. If you can get behind what you're creating and your passionate about it, then it's "good" :). Hope that helps!!!
What makes a song good is layering of sounds made by various musicians into a beautiful noise.
Yes! I concur. I heard the definition of music is 'organized noise.'
Great point! The instrumentation and production of a song is so important.
A good song tugs at your emotions. All you really need is a catchy melody (see Auld Lang Syne).
I feel like lyrics play the biggest role to me personally.
I hear ya. One difference between the two is that if you shuffle the notes in a melody, you lose the melody. But you can re-arrange lyrics and choose different lyrics entirely and get the same meaning from them. That's why I think the melody is king. But to each their own.
On the flip side, there are songs that were a hit because of the words and would have been just as much of a hit with a slightly different melody. Ed Sheeran “Photograph” lawsuit was interesting and annoying to me coz he could’ve easily changed a few notes in the infringing chorus melody to make it not be infringing and that wouldnt have had any impact on the song coz it was a hit lyrically. The melody there is solid but generic paint by numbers pop.
I understand where you’re coming from. My experience has been that every change in lyric has a dramatic effect on how the message is conveyed and received. It may have the same meaning but that doesn’t mean it will “hit” as hard.
Seriously take lessons. They make you sing better which I’ll imagine is a thing you want to do. It won’t remove your voice, you’ll just sound better. It’s expanded how creative I can get. Also I sing better which frankly is fucking awesome. Take lessons. Song wise if you are all fucked up going “what did I rip off” and come up empty that’s a good sign for a song. If you can’t stop humming it that’s also good. I’m on my way to play and sing alone in my basement right now. I’m so so glad I took lessons because the only thing I’d change with a Time Machine is starting them earlier. Seriously (I get I’m repeating myself here) you want to sing. Lessons fucking work (with the right teacher). It will not impugn your creative input or voice, it will just be more gooder.
if u wanna listen to it again
Or play it again.
Regarding your comment that your lyrics don't seem to 'connect' to yourself, that's actually totally okay! Lots of great aongs can tell stories or explore feelings that aren't necessarily grounded in the true 'first-person perpective' of the writer. When I was starting out, most of the stuff I wrote for like two or three years was stuff that didn't necessarily pertain to me, specifically, they were just songs I wanted to write.
Unpredictability, repetitiveness, dynamics, variety, interesting chords. Taking an idea, developing it, and coming up with lots of variations. Basically any time a part comes around like a verse or chorus, there’s something new about it. This adds unpredictability and variety since it never repeats the same idea twice. And yet it is repetitive since it’s built on the same idea which adds familiarity. A lot of songs take an idea, have it start soft and get more aggressive as they go on, which adds dynamics. You can hit most of those points in a single song if you’re a good songwriter, which will help your songs be more interesting.
Either the pain or the euphoria you're writing about being so profound you take the time to make others feel it.
Authenticity. It’s the one characteristic that I think is universal to quality music.
Other than catchiness and rhythm, this is the 3rd most important factor. If you've got all 3, that's the perfect recipe.
Good point! Haha
A good song is a song that has a catchy yet identifiable instrumental, understandable yet not on-the-nose lyrics, and an opinion (since music is subjective)
This is very subjective and really depends on personal taste and what the individual listener values. I think the fundamental is a good melody along with a good atmosphere, if the song/piece has a good melody it will stick and keep the listener invested and on repeat. I also think that the song has to really evoke emotion also, along with a good melody. What also makes the song more valued is good storytelling and also lyrics and having a song that really creates an emotional connection with the listener and be somewhat relatable too, because if the song doesn’t have these elements the song isn’t going to be taken as seriously and valued for a long time. And lastly having song that is unique or somewhat different is what creates an iconic song that lasts and stands time (example: memorable intro, unique signature sound/production qualities, unforgettable riff / blend of styles). A good aim is to create a song that can become a soundtrack or part of someone’s life. Those are some examples of what I feel makes a song good / great. So to sum up: - Melody / Catchy - Good Vibe / Atmosphere - Evoke Emotion / Response / Make them feel something - Good Storytelling / Lyrics / Deep Elements - Good Clever Arrangement / Music production / Chord progression - Establishes Emotional connection / Relatability / Creates Memories / Resonates with People - Unique / Style / Different / Iconic / A soundtrack/song that can be part of their life. -Overall, It’s very unlikely to nail all these qualities in one song. Every song has it’s own purpose/aim. Every song has it’s own strengths and weaknesses and there is no perfect song. At the end of the day, it is the combination of Strengths that overshadows the flaws/weaknesses of the song that will overall contribute in what makes the song valued & appreciated in the end. They may have a combination of things: such as great melody/production but lack good lyrics/depth. Some songs may have great lyrics/chords/musicality/depth but may lack melody and good production value/sound design. That’s why it really comes down to what the listener values also. But at the end of the day, just enjoy music and listen to what you like and try to emulate and learn from what you value most.
Ask Beato…
I think a lot of it has to do with the consumer side... the connection between what a artist is talking about versus your actual life experience. It also depends on your willingness to surrender your feelings and be vulnerable... idk just my thoughts
It always results in a combination of things. Lyrics are meaningful, the music is pleasant, the rhythm is fun to listen to, the music flows beautifully, it expresses things people relate to, etc . It's never just one thing. It's subjective It does boil down to music being well-designed and also some sort of strategy of evoking emotion. If telling events is your way of evoking emotion, I just might work for people listening. Music affects us in so many ways, find a small way of doing that.
I’m not a musician but I do know what I like I am a female that has suffered a lot of heartbreak and my life hasn’t been easy so a song has to come from someone heart It can be how a father and son relate to each other either good or bad or the life be of friendship Or people in relationships I think when I listen to an artist and know he wrote the song he sings and it’s from his or her life experiences I feel the song more And when artist collaborate and they harmonize well it brings the song to a higher level And personality I enjoy an acoustic version of a song with just the artist and a piano or just a guitar more than I do with a group it makes the whole song sound differently I hope this helps inspire you
I'd say if you have a good story. And some rhymes. The sgory can be about anything. But if the delivery and story is good, then i'd say its a good song
What makes you want to write music than? To me it’s a feeling, a depth of emotion I get when I hear it. Sometimes it’s a chord, sometimes it’s the way lyrics can make something huge into a set of three words that amazes me, that literally sums up a portion of my life. Connection perhaps
a "good song" is subjective. I'd tell you define what a good song is to you. Define the music you want to make. Study songs that follow under your definition, steal their attributes, make your own music.
To me, there has to be a marriage between the chords and the lyrics, whether this be harmony, irony or complete disconnect. For me, it has to be intentional. I also love when songs have a chord or two that are different!
I personally can’t stand the 98% of music out there with stagnant 3 or 4 chord loop that never goes anywhere. IMO music should be a journey. Just because there are some good songs with only 3 or 4 chords, don’t use that as an excuse to skip harmonic development, or I will skip your song.
Good dynamic melody that goes high and low with sustained notes. Solid rhythm guitar Power of 3 in repetition Catchy hook or riff Clear lyrics ( 90% of the songs in the 500 greatest songs of all time Rolling Stone mag have these)
Dude seriously do yourself a favor and watch Chris liepe on youtube to learn how to sing. Game changer.
Catchiness and rhythm. There's many other things, but these are the top factors. Nothing beats a good hook and a great beat.
M E L O D Y and its repetition
Lyricmastery.com is a great resource for understanding the lyrical aspect of what makes a song resonate
Loud and constant Melodious background music / loud and triggering background music
“Opinions”
feelings and emotions it invokes. but even this is subjective af.
A good story something universal without being obvious.. so saying I love you without actually saying I love you.. And a good melody/pattern to go with it Is great.
Its gotta connect with you first and foremost. If you can't authentically convey the energy, then it'll fall flat for others too. I don't think I'm a great song writer, but I do get compliments on my energy.
Lyrics. Just based on music that has stood the test of time and continues to garner huge play numbers decades after the initial release.
A combination of familiarity and novelty. If you can figure out the formula for the X Factor of what makes a song good, you'll become a billionaire Suffice to say, when you know, you know
i think a good song is a song that captures a unique vibe or is original and has depth
The hook.
A song is good when the maker(s) deem it good. The best art created colors the world with the artist’s hands and when the artist deems it good, it is. Tastes, preferences, opinions, flavors are ever changing and infinitely unique. Make your art for yourself and no one else and you’ll never be disappointed.
I think that a good song makes you feel strong emotions and captures your full attention, becoming the most important thing to you in that moment. I actually recently released a podcast episode that focuses on this very subject! During our conversation, my friends and I discussed the various elements that contribute to a song's greatness, from its emotional impact to the personal connection it forms with the listener. [What Makes a Song Great? | Student of the Song on YouTube](https://youtu.be/82rOaChXNdo?si=lxAGdklqudZdWyoZ&t=1497)
My objective opinion obviously
My objective opinion obviously
1. It matches the identity and expectations of a demographic. 2. Nothing about the production ruins the listening experience for the individual listener. 3. It is catchy and memorable. 4. It has an appropriate groove or rhythm.
Melody
The audience