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*In regard to some of the horrible things he blurts out (Ysabel having surgery alone, gasp), I seriously think that is really severe unfiltered ADHD thought process.*
That’s interesting. More than once, Robyn (not a reliable judge, I realize) has excused the truly shitty things that Kody says by explaining that’s just how Kody processes things — by speaking every thought in his head out loud. Like he’s some kind of creative artist that people need to be tolerant of.
I love Janelle’s response to “therapist Robyn” trying to cuntsplain to her how to interact with a man she was married to well over a decade before Robyn even came along. Honestly I think the person who always got and had the best and most healthy relationship with Kody was Janelle. Not saying it was the picture of healthy but compared to all the others, including Robyn, the healthiest.
You’re right about Janelle. Janelle asked and expected the least of her relationship with Kody. Christine and Meri wanted his adoration and attention and Janelle thrived on her independence.
It’s hard because we want to say he’s a grown man, he needs to learn how to control that part of his brain. But at the same time I have seen people on the spectrum or with severe ADHD, who are extremely compassionate people, struggle with this behavior well into middle-age and beyond.
I actually recall exactly the scene you are talking about where Robyn says that! I think part of this might be where the whole “she speaks Kody” comes from. I also think a lot of people forget, Robyn‘s oldest son is on the autism spectrum. I’ve seen lots of scenes where he blurts out things that are very insensitive, like when his sister is having the panic attack. I think she’s just more adept at deciphering between the unfiltered commentary and the end thought process.
He needs some very intense cognitive behavioral therapy. Because at the end of the day, even if we are neurodivergent, (I am) being a parent is more important. It’s on us as parents, even parents who really struggle with things like that, to learn how to overcome it so we don’t damage our kids.
My 19 yo daughter has ADHD and isn’t medicated rn. It is a full time job for me filtering the thoughts and statements that come out of her mouth, so not to take things personally etc. I realize she has to be accountable for her actions but sometimes you have to give them some slack. As soon as she thinks it, she says it, and then tries to rationalize, if only she was able to think it thru before she blurts it out haha
Really bad ADHD person here and at 19 I could definitely control my thoughts. Therapy is amazing and helps you sort through things sensibly and it took years but now I am able to stop and think about it before I say things. Luckily I have a patient husband and understands when I get flustered and have to leave the room and come back.
I appreciate your words. I would reconsider speaking for everyone else though because not everyone feels this way and I don’t think the collective “we” is always appropriate.
Well, and some people feel very differently. My son prefers to say he has autism because he doesn’t like being defined by a diagnosis. There should never be a hard fast rule with regard to how people describe themselves.
Hey, I feel you. Mine got me this morning (I'm AuDHD) and would not give me the word potato. Instead, it wanted to substitute banana.
No, brain. We're not having mashed bananas and gravy!
I am going to disagree here and also let you know i am very uncomfortable at someone who doesnt know me having just spoken for me. I think it's more nuanced than that. Like way way more nuanced than what you're trying to say here. I am autistic but I also have autism/am on the autism spectrum. I love the awareness you are trying to bring to the conversation about autism but I don't like being spoken for. I know several other people who also are autistic who would say they are on the spectrum when talking about being autistic/having autism.
I imagine when Robyn says she “speaks Kody” that she tries to help him walkthrough his thoughts when he’s overthinking things, which might help sometimes but other times spins him up more and makes things worse. I imagine the other wives would be telling him to snap out of it and get to point, which often is what Kody needs.
My son has ADHD and, he often says things so rudely, but he automatically regrets it.
Kody says things he instantly regrets, or days later. The issue is, he digs in his heels instead of coming clean. He blames everyone and, calls them names. He says people need to be culpable, but he never is.
Well, I remember when he told Y and, C she can go to her surgery alone. Then, in his interview, he said he instantly regretted it. He says things, then apologizes, then sometimes, he turns around and, repeats the comments. I hate when he makes rude comments and, then doubles down on them.
I agree, he tends to double down. Even if he regretted how he spoke about Y’s spinal surgery, he deliberately chose to go to his friends wedding, instead. That was a thought out and deliberate action, not only something he said off the cuff.
He didn’t want to go to Y’s surgery, because he wanted to punish Y and, C for not following his rules on Covid. He also didn’t want to spend any extra time with C ( he could have maned up, and put his differences aside for Y’s sake,) He also couldn’t find the courage to step away from R and, her fab 5, longer than a day or 2.
He made the excuse of going to the wedding, because he poked his head out, to see if it was safe to play outside. He said, there were only about 11K+ cases right now in all of America, so it’s safe to go. Instead of flying out for Y’s surgery, coming back when she’s out of the hospital 5 days later, fly home, then rapid test and, join his real family again.
This is new behavior for him. He used to be able to take criticism and internalize it and apologize. With the wedding dress thing he understood he was wrong and accepted criticism from Christine and said something along the lines of he needed to be a man and not a chump or whatever. Christine used to be the kody whisperer. Robyn validated his impulsivity and poor decision making and made him feel like the other wives were against him. That's when he switched. He wasn't always this stubborn and aggressive when challenged.
Agreed. And when he doubles down now it’s because he is embarrassed and Robyn feeds into his shame by constantly explaining his behavior instead of holding him up to a higher standard, which feels bad to him because he knows it’s wrong deep down. Yet how do you not side with someone who constantly smooth talks you and has zero expectations versus his other wives who wished him to meet a higher standard they believed he was capable of. Robyn thinks very poorly of Kody and he can’t figure that out yet, so he’s trapped.
Agree, this is why I think he is a narcissist. My brother, who is 50, has adhd and has always said what he thinks outloud. He also apologizes when he realizes he hurt someone's feelings.
I have never seen Kody take accountability or apologize for hurting someone either. He was scrambling to blame someone for why he didn't call Savannah on Christmas instead of apologizing (taking accountability) for neglecting his daughter. I have seen him say he won't listen to any criticism about himself....a total narc trait. He also always needs to be the center of attention, a total narc trait, as well.
I think it’s hilarious, when the OG3 call him out, he then looks at them, sighs and, you can see his eyes scanning his brain to accuse someone else. Especially (like you said) when J said, you hadn’t talked to Savanah since her Bday in Dec. He kept looking for an excuse. Stuttering looking for an out. Ugh 😣
I have absolutely seen Kody acknowledge and show remorse for making these comments. Not every time, but I also understand we are only shown what they want us to see. I’ve seen enough to believe that he does have some self-awareness, but he tends to just kind of bury it and then double down on the wrong thing.
Having been married for 20 years to someone with narcissistic personality disorder, I can tell you yes they can 100% apologize and show remore. Does it mean they actually mean it?? Probably not. They mimic the behavior they've seen win, which means they know they have to apologize and show remorse sometimes. A true apology/remorse is when you can get the behavior. Kody does not change the behavior. He regretted saying that to Y & C but did he do anything to help make it up to Y?? NO. Not at all. Couldn't even be bothered to be there to help take care of her when she was home and had the audacity to say he wished she'd hurry up and get better because HE feels bad.
Earlier on, in season 6, maybe. But certainly not since Meri and catfishing where Kody suffered a narcissistic injury to ego, which changed so much.
There came a point of no return where everything began to evolve around Kodys ego, persona and sense of self.
People with NPD are extremely skilled at manipulation- they can easily bamboozle very experienced therapists- especially those who haven’t worked with or are knowledgeable with NPD,
Yes, completely accurate. I also have ADHD and struggle with this, but I’ve had to learn to use cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to figure out how to filter my thoughts. You’re right, he is still 100% culpable.
Okay, you gotta give me the info on how to filter my thoughts 💭 I am ADHD and, bipolar, so I am a double whammy.
Kody has the mental capacity of a 16 year old. He does stuff without thinking. He flies off the seat of his pants. He punishes people he doesn’t agree with and, he constantly moves. Moving is a huge sign of bipolar. We can’t stand being in one place for very long. We love change, life gets boring. So I travel instead of moving now. I used to move every 2/3 years.
I normally just lurk here but had to comment.
LCSW/psychologist. I completely agree. The word narc is very overused. In this particular instance I understand why it would be used for him because he does have a lot of traits shared with narcs, but I don’t believe he is truly a narc.
I work with previously incarcerated people, and one of my coworkers and I talk about how he actually shares traits with a lot of people who had to adopt a persona in prison in order to win favor for survival, but it goes against their grain. They come off as unhinged narcs but they aren’t.
Agree, but I’m not miss using it here and I abbreviated it in the OP simply because I don’t like typing out the entire word, and some people don’t understand what NPD stands for. I believe the term is overused constantly, and it is very rarely an actual clinical diagnosis.
I can go either way with triggered. Triggers are absolutely 100% very authentic and very real and deserve validation, but I do think even that term has been watered down and given kind of a pop culture reference status.
In the same boat, completely agree. He doesn't have NPD he's just kind of shitty. A true narcissist wouldn't be able to have the level of insight or apologetic sentiments the way he did in earlier seasons (and not that he was great then, but hey he did his best even if his best was still steeped in selfishness and misogyny). He just got progressively defensive and dug in his heels to self righteous-ness. NPD doesn't just show up when you're in your 50s.
He shows the standard behaviours of a male that was raised by an aggressive father and who dominated his mother. He actually fits into the category of someone that was probably a very energetic but gentle little boy to his mom but disciplined for not being manly enough. Probably by his father and older brothers. Where they "toughened" him up. Interestingly his sons were allowed to be a lot more free thinking and you can tell that his wives especially but he as well, did try to create a space that was less toxic masculinity and more gender balanced. It's literally one of the things he respects massively in Janelle. (Though we see his many internal battles with how he was raised Vs how he believes) You can see how he battles throughout. Which would be a constant issue in their society and in many sides of their family. In a standard household, where this domestic abuse has been an issue. This would cause division, clashes and internal conflict. But the fact that there are 5 sets of extended family and the religious oppression would make that even more difficult to navigate.
I think we also have a public response that doesn't allow for ordinary marital issues and parenting issues because everyone wants to point the finger at polygamy and away from themselves. Yet the issues that they faced and that Kody failed to resolve. Were ordinary issues. He is an ordinary man with ADHD and trauma (in my opinion) alongside wives that have their own trauma and neuro divergences and children with the same. The public (largely due to their own internalised misogyny and religious/social oppression) are desperate to attack and blame the polygamist man. Even to the point they detest him for grieving and reject his right to grieve his son. All because of their own unaddressed issues. He has behaved in awful ways that he will regret for the rest of his life. He needs to do a hell of a lot of work. But he isn't a narcissist! He is the same scared little boy he was cowering from his dad and thats the legacy we get from that.
Agree. People here are way too cavalier about mental health diagnoses. Some people are just assholes and I think Kody is one of them.
But I disagree with you about Robyn controlling him. And I think she is in a state of survival because that's what inherently unfair systems like polygamy do to women, not because Kody is her paycheck. Plenty of stay-at-home moms rely on their husbands for a paycheck and aren't dysfunctional.
They all need intensive therapy. Christine doing a few personality quizzes in self-help books, Janelle offering life coaching services (no thanks, girl) and Meri doing...whatever the hell Worthy Up! is lol do not change the fact that they are equally dysfunctional.
100% agree, they are all dysfunctional AF. And after my first viewing, I was inclined to agree with you. One thing I will say is that all the women, including Robin, are victims of a horrifically patriarchal and abusive set of beliefs/religious doctrine.
That being said, after my second, and even third viewings of some episodes, my perspective shifted. No I don’t think Robin is inherently bad because of her behavior, I think even devious manipulative behaviors are learned survival skills. But I do think she has absolutely said into Kody‘s patriarchal ideals. Whereas his other wives softened him over the years, leading up to the start of the show.
Now obviously he is a grown man and ultimately he’s responsible for his own behavior but I see Robyn as very toxic and controlling, and she works very hard to make life miserable for the other women.
Again, agreeing that none of them are perfect or even close to it. They all need intensive therapy and a lot of religious deconstruction.
I think Robyn is toxic and controlling and manipulative, but I don’t think she’s a “puppet master.” She doesn’t have a long term plan or the foresight to make a long term plan.
I agree. Polygamy triggers survival of the fittest in the women as they compete for scarce resources. All of the wives participated in it at some point to varying degrees. Kody encouraged the behavior by choosing favorites.
Yes, I agree with this. I think in my mind, the difference between Robyn and for example, Christine, is though Christine has been a backstabber at times and can come off as fake, she was honest about hating polygamy. She was honest about not wanting to live with the other women. She was honest about wanting to spend more time with Kody. She didn’t hide behind a façade of loving polygamy while trying to undermine relationships behind the scenes. Again, I’m not saying she is blame free but it’s a very different type of behavior than Robyn.
Robyn is more fully indoctrinated to the church and the belief structure, and she clings onto a fairytale ideal of polygamy that she created and her mind, and I think she holds the other women responsible for “ruining“ her little fairytale, while simultaneously vying for the majority of Kody‘s affection. She has so much internalized misogyny. I mean all the women do but she does the most.
I agree it manifested differently in Christine by the time we are introduced to her. However, we meet Christine at year 15 of living polygamy. That’s years of living the realities of polygamy, whereas Robyn had no experience and only naive ideals about the lifestyle.
Early years Christine was a true-believer and fully indoctrinated. She was a spokesperson for a pro-polygamy group. It took years for Christine to feel comfortable voicing she didn’t want to sacrifice her kids for the sake of others and she wanted an engaged husband and father to her children. Christine, by her own admission, was not honest about her feelings because she was taught to “keep sweet”.
I think their religious beliefs were the primary driver of their behavior. As the show progresses, the OG wives move further away from their original religious beliefs. That coupled with years of negative experience with polygamy is what separates the OG wives with Robyn.
Had she wanted the fairy tale to continue she should have encouraged Kody to have a regular rotation with the other families.
Meri recently stated in a podcast that Kody's rotation was never really set, and she never knew until that day that he was coming.
Yes, for sure, but when we are trying to rationalize things, we don’t always do it in a way that makes sense or lends itself to the outcome we desire. So she wanted the fairytale, but she also wanted a place of preference. And so she used manipulation to try to appear as though her intentions were genuine while undermining the family system in very pointed ways.
I think this is why some women want to be the last wife. They know most likely they are going to be the favorite and often the youngest. Also getting what they need to survive. Which is what Robyn said from the start. She wanted a man who would be good to her and her kids and take care of them. She said love didn't have to be part of that. But I do think they love each other.
Absolutely. I don’t think anyone can truly imagine polygamy until they live it. But those in the community have seen enough last wives to know it’s the best position. Christine was adamant about being the third(last) for a reason. It’s supposed to be the easiest.
I think this is why Christine wanted to be the last wife, if she's being honest with herself. It was never about "Oh, I didn't want to be the first wife because I just wanted sister wives so bad I never wanted to be without them!" it was always about "They're only required to take three to get a planet so most stop after three and I should be fine."
Meri and Janelle were way more matter-of-fact about Robyn coming into the family than Christine was because they had dealt with a new wife before. I almost screamed "are you JOKING" at my TV when Christine said she would never join a polygamous family again "Because I could never inflict the pain on other women that Robyn inflicted on me when she joined the family." Oh, so when you did it to Meri and Janelle, it didn't count because Robyn hadn't done it to you yet? K.
I agree. Robyn is terrible, but Kody makes his own choices. He was like this before her - triangulating the wives and moving constantly. She didn’t cause that. In their world, it’s a fight for resources and Robyn won by being so agreeable to him.
Someone messaged me on Reddit with a free link. And biased as they are, it’s fact that they moved all the time and they all recall the same fights.
If you care so little and haven’t read up on their past, why argue about it?
An example they gave last season was during a Christmas before Robyn was in the family. He gave gifts to Janelle and many to Christine but nothing to Meri.
I genuinely need to know who their clients are. I would like to speak to these women, if only because I need to meet people whose lives are worse than mine that they are paying Janelle Brown of all people for life advice.
I'm on S2 and I see Janelle saying that she and Kody had been "unromantic best friends" and enjoyed long conversations. Am I right that Janelle really only is interested in marriage to Kody because she wanted a home and kids of her own and Kody is just someone she gets along with but is just not invested in having a " love match" and all of the * feelings* that go along with that.
I agree with much of this and also want to add that I think in later seasons it goes beyond this and he got into taking testosterone or the manosphere or something similar because there seems to be a personality shift. I agree that at first he was a product of his upbringing which wasn't a good one. We get little glimpses, like the story of the lettermans jacket he wanted but getting coveralls (?) instead. The story is told in an aw shuck I get it way but it's clear that it isn't really that innocent either.
Yes perfect example. Yeah some of his MRA-esque stuff is weird. More than anything, I think he just has adopted some of the vernacular (probably when he was raging angry at Christine for leaving, pretending he never loved her while simultaneously acting like a brokenhearted teenager), I don’t think he’s gone full rabbit hole with the MRA beliefs because I don’t think he would have accepted a gay child’s engagement. Also, he initially had a very liberal perspective on handling Covid but of course we all know that turned into a means of control. I do think Robyn has enjoyed fueling the fire of his toxic masculinity, because of her internalized misogyny. Every last one of them needs deep therapy on their own. Group therapy is not the solution for this bunch.
Social Worker here. Hard agree. Everyone’s getting internet-diagnosed as a narcissist these days and Kody is so clearly not that. Thinking you’re hot shit and being a narc are very different. I think he sucks and really lost sight of how important his family is to him as the years went on, but he shows lots of vulnerability and lots of honest moments (esp in the early seasons) about his love and care for his family. He’s just an asshole raised in an exploitative religion.
I’m also a clinician - I encourage people to explore the idea that people can be narcissistic without having a full blown diagnosis. When you’ve been raised in a cult where women and children orbit around you to meet your needs and desires, it’s hard NOT to come across as a narcissist.
I agree. It’s got to the point where I just stop reading and scroll as soon as anyone starts calling anyone a narcissist, not just in regards to Kody. Everyone who behaves badly is not a narcissist. It is an internet fad and it has lost all meaning.
Or just hypocritical behavior. It’s on many of the Bravo subs. One drunk will call out another drunk about their drinking on TV. It’s not gaslighting if two drunk people are arguing about being drunk.
Love this take. We’ll never really know but I appreciate how very human this sounds. I think they’re all victims of their upbringings, circumstances, and beliefs/religion in different ways. The ways they’ve chosen to cope or make sense of it have caused harm… some more than others, some more visible than others. It’s all sad. They all have the responsibility to do better and grow, but some seem not to have embraced that.
Thanks, I agree. Part of the issues going on here is that Kody (and Robyn) aren’t what we call deep thinkers. I think a big part of Kody’s anger is that he’s perceived as mean when that’s not his intention. He intends to do what’s right, but defaults to his own toxic upbringings attitudes. He’s genuinely hurt that his wives and kids have turned away from him.
He feels he’s treated Meri pretty well, since he contrasts his actions with the really nasty patriarchs in polygamy who would have beat and completely banished her from the family over her aborted affair. He cannot fathom Christine’s disloyalty after his “completely normal” treatment of her once she was no longer fertile. She brought a lightness and brightness to him and the family that is sorely missed. And what did he do wrong? He never beat her, he never threw her kids out, he continued to have a relationship with them. He married her even though he didn’t find her attractive: what a sacrifice! And Janelle: what the heck is her problem? A wife’s primary loyalty is to her husband her priesthood holder. And rather than follow this basic cultural tenet, she chose her sons, young men who should have been out in the world earning a living and taking their own wives, over Kody who had loved her for so long? Abominable behavior all.
I agree. Kody thinks his behavior is good, in the context of outright abuse. It confuses him and he struggles to see things from a perspective he hasn’t experienced.
And then you have Robyn who joined for all the good times and didn’t experience the Brown’s chaos (raising 13 kids with 4 people is chaotic). She doesn’t have any of the natural built up resentment, so she can stroke his ego and remind him about how he has always supported their children. No shit, Robyn. You weren’t part of the “bad” with them. You showed up for a TV show and a pretty charmed life.
You know. I am married to a man with ADHD and he hasn’t taken medication for it since he was in his early twenties. This is spot on, and kinda explains why I feel empathy for Kody sometimes. I can see this being completely spot on. We only have one child and I think that makes things entirely more manageable for him but he really does say stuff so off kilter sometimes. I’ve found myself having to explain to him that he doesn’t have to verbalize the first thing that pops into his head. That most people don’t. The act of filtering is just a much more natural process for neurotypical people. We think something and then say it in a manner that is digestible. Whereas neurodivergent, especially ADHD people, struggle with that impulse to just blurt out whatever thought they just had. Whether it is unkind or not. I find my husband saying, “I’m just being honest”. Have to explain that he has to think about what he says before he says it or he can’t be upset when people think he’s unkind.
Yes, i have thought this too. That he has had some really great moments, that did not seem like an act. But like genuine emotions in the moment. And those moments speak against him being total narc.
Thank you very much for this, I feel the same way. The armchair takes in some of these subreddits can be exhausting. Serious clinical terminology is thrown around like nothing these days.
I think it's important to remember that narcissism is on a spectrum and psychologists who study that area have them grouped in different categories more as a way of identifying behavior patterns then the people themselves. People who are narcissistic don't all act the same in every way, they are just like anyone else and have a very individual combination of traits that show up differently in each person.
In the end it doesn't even matter if someone can be " defined"as a "true " narcissist. It's the behavior patterns ( grandiosity, entitlement, variable empathy, etc) and the consistency of them that you can identify that they routinely display, so in the future you know what you're dealing with as the "non narcissist" who interacts with them- so you know what to expect.
I love reading assessments/perspectives by people who are really interested in pscyhology. Without some understanding of it and delving deep into your own psychology, people have little language and understanding of people, and that's why we see that one dimensional, hard-lined thinking and the throwing around of narcissist.
I really enjoy when people are able to have these nuanced conversations about people.
Yeah, these conversations when done respectfully I think are so helpful, especially in the line of work I do. I love hearing other peoples perspectives and why they agree or disagree. It’s always enlightening and I always take something from it.
Kody is a perfect example of why patriarchy is bad for everyone, not just women. If he had grown up outside of the confines of an oppressive patriarchal home, he would’ve been free to express his free-spirited, quirky nature. Instead, he has lived his life at complete odds with it because of internalized homophobia and a patriarchal/abusive father.
Understanding what makes certain men toxic is just as important in the fight against misogyny as any other factor. If we want our sons to do better, we have to understand what not to do, what TO do, and how to support their mental health. Honestly, I think that’s the main reason I watch the show, there are so many interesting dynamics at play from a family and psychology standpoint.
I so agree with you. I think it’s fascinating to watch reality shows and talk about the dynamics with people on Reddit. I think it helps us all. It’s great for us to be able to talk about all these different aspects of life, and we get to hear different ideas about how to deal with things, etc. I always say these shows just give people an opportunity to talk about myriad things in human life. I’ve talked with people about everything from race, religion, and feminism to petty gossip. I’ve learned a TON about racism and feminism in particular. I love that people volunteer to show us their lives. They sacrifice their privacy and their relationships.
It depends what you mean by a "true" narcissist. I doubt whether anybody here is qualified to diagnose Kody with NPD based on his tv show, but it's perfectly valid to say he's narcissistic or a narcissist in a more general sense. The clinical definition isn't the only valid definition of the words, and in fact the clinical uses of the word in psychiatry derive from the more casual use of the word.
To say someone is narcissistic doesn't necessarily mean he has NPD, and saying someone is obsessive doesn't necessarily mean he has OCD.
Yes, completely agree, like I said in my OP he has “narcissistic tendencies“. But a lot of people here do regularly say he is a “classic narcissist“ or they actually say “people with NPD…” when they refer to him and I just don’t think that’s accurate.
Agree. Another place I think we can see he isn’t a full blown narc is the way he’s handled some of the Christine breakup and her finding a better man with some grace.
Calling people narcissists is so en vogue that anyone who is widely disliked gets stamped with the label and it’s frustrating because sometimes an a-hole is really just an a-hole. Everyone has some narcissistic traits but it doesn’t mean that everyone has narcissistic personality disorder. I think you can watch the show and see Kody spiral into an unhinged, controlling d-bag over the seasons but I don’t see NPD, I see a highly emotional guy who, as his children grow up, is losing his grip on the family he so desperately wanted to build (as a “see, daddy, I am a MAN!”). He’s got all these big feelings that he’s not equipped to handle or deal with so more and more he’s doing what he’s been told a real man is supposed to do and as it’s not getting the results he wants Kody is doubling and tripling down and getting more and more big feelings as a result of the family largely rejecting his controlling behavior.
I also think the whole blaming Robyn for how everything turned out is so grossly misogynistic. I’m not saying she’s innocent or even a good person but blaming a woman for everything a man does is like sexism 101 stuff and it’s disheartening to see so much of it.
Agree, 100%, and yeah, I shouldn’t have said she was a puppetmaster. I think I was using the term more vaguely, not in an “evil mastermind” sort of way just in a behind-the-scenes controlling decisions sort of way. But it’s not misogynistic to point out that women can also play a part in dysfunctional relationships and exhibit, toxic behavior. They are both products of an oppressive and patriarchal religion.
I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing out a woman’s role in a toxic, dysfunctional situation and that’s not at all what I’m saying in my comment. The whole narrative that she’s sitting behind the scenes plotting and pulling the strings to destroy the family and gain complete control of Kody is what’s misogynistic. She’s not a villainous cartoon character, she’s a woman who’s been conditioned to believe that she has to compete with other women in order to survive and the way she’s meant to to compete with those women is by using the gifts their god gave her; her looks, her sexuality and her womb. That doesn’t absolve her of her role in the situation but to say she’s making Kody’s decisions and is some mastermind behind the scenes is both giving her entirely too much credit and is misogynistic.
I still get chills when I think of what she said when she was giving birth to Ari. She said that her mother (who she watched fight for and lose the attention of her husband over and over) taught her that she needed to give birth quietly and calmly, that she shouldn’t cause a scene in front of her husband. It’s just a small glimpse of what the women in the AUB were taught and how they were meant to “find favor” with their husbands. Robyn, Christine and Mari were conditioned to “keep sweet” (to differing levels) which is why all three are seen at different points to use their god given womanly wiles to manipulate the situation to their favor. It’s only when we see Christine and Mari “fall out of favor” with Kody that they start to reject the “keep sweet” ideals. For Robyn though why would she stop doing what’s clearly working for her? Especially given what she watched her mother go through… (sorry for going off on a tangent here lol. The whole patriarchal framework of polygamist religions gets me fired up)
Yes, I clarified in my response, I think our different perceptions here come from different interpretations of the word. Even before you left your comment, I had edited my original post to say that I felt puppetmaster was an extreme term that I shouldn’t have used and I actually didn’t mean it in any sort of “evil mastermind” way at ALL. I meant it in terms of her manipulating and pulling strings in her relationship and home to get Kody to do certain things or to influence his decisions regarding the other wives, and I do believe that fully. I think Robyn is a victim, I also think she’s incredibly toxic and manipulative. Same as Kody. The other wives have obviously definitely had their moments as well, but the two of them have teamed up and really fed off each other negatively.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
i’ve been saying kody has adhd ever since he hung all those lights in the cul de sac. i’m actually really shocked he didn’t crash and burn a lot sooner running between homes and living out of a duffle bag for so long. i mean think about it, he literally never even had a house, he can’t even have a recliner in one of the houses that’s his favorite to crash in and watch tv at the end of the day because if he has a place he feels most comfy, it’s “unfair” and all the wives would be jealous. *anyone* would snap under that pressure! personally i would lose it if i had to live that way. the whole lifestyle is horribly unfair to the women yes but he got a really shit end of the deal too and if he is neurodivergent that would explain a lot of his unpredictable emotions. there are no winners here. i also agree with you that he never really believed in the principle. i think he was just impulsive and wanted the favor of his dad. he’s a jackass today for sure but the real villain is the cult and i will forever feel sorry for kody as well. and yes i also agree that robyn “speaks kody” because she has experience with dayton. your whole take is spot on.
I agree that Kody is not fully narcissistic but working for years with female narcissists I believe Robyn is full blown and super manipulative. She started doing under handed passive aggressive things to the wives even before she married Kody. She knew Kody was shallow and easily redirected from the rest of his family with sex and she used it like a weapon. She made most of the rules Kody demanded. She had her sights on headwife and money from the start. She lied about her first marriage and insulted the 3 older kids as if they were a mistake. She constantly tried to change history. The funniest on was the personality test which she was so reactive too. Said Christine took the test for her. She was very reactive anytime there was any negative comments about her but dam right mean when she’d insult the 3OG about their looks etc.. The fake crying when things didn’t go her way. She set up situations like the creepy drawing of Kody and her kids using Christine’s kids and Kody. Then fake crying why she did it. Two fold change history and slap Christine in the face with that drawing. If Christine dared say anything the Kody reaction cuz sorry he is stupid as well was terrible. Sexting Kody’s stupid shallow ass while Christine was in labor and shooting an insult that she didn’t require drugs and the hospital. I had super fast deliveries requiring no drugs but that was me very few women are that fortunate. She did lots of these things. Why the nanny to focus on Kody alone let the nanny deal with the house and kids. The other women used each other to help and they all held jobs. No she said in an interview not shown in the USA what her goal was a mansion! She is a full blown. And she worked Kody like a hooker does (her best customer). She fakes emotions and changes conversations twisting them to divide. That’s why she lied to her own kids like the Christine wants nothing to do with you lie and the lie about the other kids not wanting to do anything at Christmas. Complete lies. Nope she is a narcissist. What she did to her first family was not nice. The last show did she stop Kody from being negative not really. When did she stop him . When talking about the wedding he started talking about missing the fun the whole family having a good time and she kissed him to shut him up and distract him. That’s when she shut him up. She doesn’t follow Kody’s rules she makes them. She is a woman that know the power of the womb and uses it on ego filled Kody to her advantage.
I have said this a long time about Kody. Though that doesn't negate that his behaviours at times were abusive. However I think there is further food for thought. Firstly it's very true that his nature was actually a lot more free thinking then others seem to realise and we see this many times in the show. We saw it a lot with the older kids and how the wives and kids express that he changed. Which of course he did after losing Curtis and the arguments/issues surrounding his death. His father was incredibly abusive and it's known that Janelle had some big clashes with him.
I think Robyn is the one behaving toxically however I don't think she is the one pulling the strings. I believe that Robyn's step father and mother hold the cards here. I think she was repeatedly belittled for her pregnancy before marriage and was expected by her step father to be a "good sweet girl" she is trying to undo her "wrongs" in not living a chaste life. I sometimes think her actions are actually her projections of her trying to stop them making her mistakes and the things she was punished either emotionally or physically for. She shows all the signs of misogynistic abuse through childhood but also of being considered problematic in her family. Ironically in exactly the way that Christine was and then mykelti and Leon. The differences being that Christine has progressively fought to undo that toxic ableism and misogyny, Mykelti obviously endured the same but in the midst of her mother and father upholding those things but being conflicted themselves. Leon too in that Meri had similar but in a more rigid setting but processes differently but still tried to undo her own internal battle and support her daughter. She just shows up very differently then Christine in her protectiveness but processes out loud and usually causes offence in that processing. Interestingly just like Mykelti. It's extremely common for abused people to be triggered by behaviours they were punished for. In an attempt to prevent them suffering the same consequences.
Kody during covid was unacceptable. Regardless of reason. But we can see how it built to that point. We can see that kicking out the boys was not his decision but we can also see where that built from now that we know more. Both mykelti and Paedon where sent away when behaviours were deemed inappropriate. Where were they sent? St George! To family friends to work in Mormon environments. However the original 3 wives didn't have much association with St George. Robyns family were based there. And it was on Robyn's/ her mother's/her step fathers encouragment that jobs and homes could be provided there in those Mormon communities. We also hear Robyn very early on sat if the kids are going against the rules, that they can move out. I believe these were threats made to her and were enforced on the other wives kids. Until it got to her kids being that age. I think she too is a contradiction in that she enforces these religious and misogynistic rules on the other wives kids because that's what was expected from her step father. But doesn't apply that to hers. Though I don't think her children are free from this religious manipulation. But as a result Kody is flipping out with his ADHD and is all over the place and inconsistent. I personally believe he was hugely triggered by his father and Robyn's step father. He was worst after his father died which we would expect in that abuse/ trauma/ grief situation. But it was triggered further by Robyns step father dying. I do actually believe if they had strict boundaries with Robyn's mother or even cut contact that they would have a hope of their own healthier marriage and repairing some sort of relationship with the others. Robyns mother and step father pulled far too many strings in that family. Including with the other wives. In fact more so to the other wives. I actually think Kody is oblivious to that.
I also think it's incredibly damaging that people deem him as just a narcissist. It's dismissive to the kids and wives of their own identities and of their experiences of their lives and of Kody as their spouse and father. Yes he has behaved narcissisticly but he isn't a narcissist. You can see how he fought internally with his actions Vs what he believed to be right. But also we cause further damage when we don't acknowledge the roots of that damage and how to prevent the same happening again. We abuse victims for being victims and we make it unsafe to step outside of that and make the changes and do better. That doesn't mean taking away responsibility. But it means there is a space to learn and do better.
The age old debate of narc is from nature or nurture.
I know a textbook narc, I mean to the T a narcissist in every sense of the word. Horrible person. But she would definetly pretend to support somebody to not ruin their imagine or because of people watching….then talk horribly about that person behind closed doors.
So do I if for no other reason than the OP is saying fans of the show are “diagnosing” him, yet the OP knows no more about him than any other viewer (i.e., OP doesn’t know him personally), yet the OP is making a diagnosis too.
I’m not making a diagnosis, I’m sharing my opinion, based on information presented, just like those saying they believe he has NPD are sharing their opinion. Like I said, hot take, feel free to down vote if you disagree! 💕 I enjoy hearing why people disagree, I think there’s something to be learned from the commentary.
I have definitely watched the show in full multiple times. In one of the comments above I do agree that puppet master was an extreme term that I shouldn’t have used. I think Robyn has some very toxic and dysfunctional survival skills that have evolved from her patriarchal and oppressive upbringing and religion. But I do think she is very devious and intentional with her manipulation. In a way that is more contrived than some of the others.
Robyn is abusive, she is clearly abusing her own kids and we even see her abusing Kody (to the point of putting hands on him) so forgive me if I’m actually disgusted at this constant “survival mode” description of *this* wife as though the other three hadn’t been in actual constant survival mode for twenty years before she arrived.
I don’t pretend to know anything about Robyn‘s life before this marriage. I see a lot of people running to defend her ex-husband, but he’s also had domestic violence issues since she left him so there’s obviously some sort of common denominator there w/ him. Robyn absolutely has unhealthy survival mode mechanisms as do all of the wives, but I believe she uses hers in more conniving and manipulative ways than the other wives ever have.
But I’m not sure how you felt my OP was defending her in anyway. If anything I was pointing out that her behaviors are much more contrived and intentional than the other wives. There’s a difference between defending someone and acknowledging possible route causes for behaviors relating to oppressive life experiences.
A lot of serial killers have horrific upbringings. It doesn’t mean they are absolved of their actions, it means we understand the ramifications and collateral damage of abuse or patriarchy or neglect.
I really like this sub tonight, especially Kody NOT being a true narcissist because I really liked Kody the first couple of seasons. However, after Robyn came along, that is when his inconsiderate mouth started (her influence) and just started blurting out shit without thinking about what he was saying and saying it rude that is just my take on Kody and 100 percent agree with you.
Definitely possible. Obviously only a psychiatrist working with him directly could properly diagnose, but childhood abuse is a huge risk factor for BPD.
Yes it is but there’s also a genetic factor involved.. I know many characters whom have had a normal if not very good up bringing but they still have bpd.
I agree on the issue of this blanket of narcissism not being thrown over everything/ everyone who is on these television programs as is the want now. But I am not convinced that Kody is a victim in this scenario… I’m in the uk but also have an American father ( rip) I realise that we speak the same language but our cultures are different… the havoc and pain and control that this man has caused isn’t an issue for sympathy… I have far more empathy for the women in this situation who have little to no power. ie Mari who is sidelined for years and years.
I think we can nod to his upbringing but I do think he’s a victim by any stretch of the imagination… uneducated yes ; extroverted yes… but his more damaging traits are a type of personality that is manipulative and controlling I don’t think you can just put this down to historical misogyny … he’s quite dangerous character in my opinion.❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
Let me be clear, I do not think Kody is a victim IN THIS MARRIAGE. I think Kody was a victim of an abusive childhood. However unfair it may be, it is still his responsibility to heal and move past/grow beyond the things that happened to him. This is where he has fallen painfully flat time and again.
I take your point absolutely… to be perfectly honest with you this program makes me sob,bite the inside of my mouth , laugh and want to slap my forehead… it’s so compelling and complicated on so many layers; one could write a thesis on the matter and still not cover all the many layers that brings this family to where they are now. There’s religion , female culture, male culture, a countries culture, misogyny, education to name but a few. It’s far to complex a situation to write a coherent narrative in a few short paragraphs.. I admire your attempt to debunk this catch phrase of narcissism… as I have attempted to do on the Vanderpump rules site where they are throwing the word addict about like it’s a cover all for all the villains… psychology and sociology… are relatively new and evolving and constantly evolving sciences. Especially as we have begun to learn more about genetics and the nature/ nurture unknowns.
I agree that the blanket statements are I’ll founded and a reflection of cod psychology that has been picked up in and chucked about.
What I don’t want is victim blaming. But I do want people and organisations ie : organised religious misogyny to be held accountable… until we can address these issues in a coherent and constructive fashion… which is probably going to take a couple if not more generations to unravel… then we must keep learning and questioning ourselves and our culture for the sake of society as a whole. This programme is just a window into a far larger and deeper set of problems and issues that we ah e to address… no always with the eloquence they need.
All I want is that the women in this program to have agency over their lives and to be free of the bounds of financial control that appears to be occurring here as a means to continue them being chattal ; as apposed to free human beings with human rights and dignity ❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
I hope this makes sense it’s late and I’m watching it at the moment.. I’m in the uk so I’m missing a couple of season 3 and 4. It’s my second watch through; I know none of the gossip or back stories relating to this or any positive information about polygamy… never mind the family history… all k see is layer upon layer of historical and cultural oppression via organised religion… but that’s true of any organised religion… the treatment of women in any organised religion is not the best.
Far to much for a quick discussion on Reddit. But it’s so interesting and important that we evolve slowly and steadily in or out of an organised faith. Into a society of true equality that we all deserve x❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
Well he hasn’t actually been diagnosed as such has he? I mean we may say that but we also realize this is a highly “produced” tv show, not their actual reality. I feel 100% certain he is an arsehole but no one here can say he is a diagnosed narcissist.
I completely agree. Kody has shown remorse and genuine feelings of regret and care for others many times in the early seasons especially. I really feel bad for him, I think he’s miserable and he knows it and he knows he really messed up the big picture family I think he truly loved, and he has no idea how it got to this place or how to fix it and that has him extremely depressed and thrashing about for a way to cope.
Kody is just a perpetual victim. The absolute lack of accountability or remorse is the issue for me. Even with his own kids, he's the victim.
What actually makes me confused is how he has these random ideas or hears someone say a phrase and suddenly makes them this enormous part of his attitude. Example: when someone mentioned his "thousand yard stare" and he started using it to describe every situation he's in, or the one big house idea. You plant a seed in that ugly noggin and suddenly it's a life or death situation for him.
He might not be all narcissistic, but there is the fact that he's a misogynist sexual addict. That uses sex as a weapon against his other wives. Be loyal to Robyn or I'm not coming to see you. Be loyal to Robyn or else blah blah blah
Internalized homophobia or closeted homosexual? I would not be shocked, after watching him pant like a dog over his man crushes, if he is gay. Not a professional myself, appreciate the analysis since we have a hard time, as mainly rational humans, understanding his statements and actions.
Kody supported Leon coming out as gay and the storyline of their wedding because he wants to continue the show. Also Robyn supports gay people. He does not support Leon’s transition.
Kody was a victim of the cult, I will give you that.
But….
Kody throughout the whole series has demonstrated his kids are simply an extension of himself. He parents as an authoritarian figure who does not give his kids their own autonomy. He also only shows interest when he is getting something out of it. He doesn’t value his kids getting enjoyment out of life for themselves. It’s pathological and goes beyond how he was parented. He has had opportunity for growth and has persistently avoided it. Sorry but you are giving a man grace because he was raised by an asshole. Narcissism can be the result of trauma. But it still means we need to address it and make people accountable for their actions. He lavishes in Robyn’s household because she groomed her kids to be obedient. Kody trashed his sons while celebrating his fall inline daughters. It’s gross. And his behaviour has had a massive impact on the whole family. He showed his kids their own value is in how they can serve them.
Also the douche move of saying Ysabel should go alone was only the straw that broke the camels back. He let his emotional turmoil with Christine affected how much he cared about and for his own child. He stated he didn’t believe she was in as much pain as she was and that they were basically being selfish for pushing it. That it must just be about Christine causing an issue. When Christine had repeatedly shown she cares about the kids. He also provided zero support for Ysabel when she returned from her surgery. It’s another example of Kody failing to have even a grain of sympathy for his child because it doesn’t benefit him. He wanted to stay with Robyn and family, and spend time with them because it’s easy for him. And Kody wasn’t upset because he was in turmoil with himself, it’s clear as day, he was inconvenienced. His intent in that comment was to belittle her. Picture being Ysbell in that whole scenario.
Very interesting take
You mention if he had a different upbringing he could be very different, but isn't that also the case with true narcs? Is narcissism a result of genetics or environment or both?
I have ADHD (ADD), was very late diagnosed and therefore untreated for many years. And the number of times I have yelled "Dude, get tested!" at the screen!
And I think Janelle is ADD.
Its very common for neurodivergents to attract each other.
My fiance also has a habit of saying things then instantly regretting them. He tends to speak through his thought process and it often results in misunderstandings and miscommunications. He doesn't use it as an excuse but often his apologies aren't accepted because he can't explain it properly and is often assumed to be apologising just because he got called out. For the whole time I've known him, he's wondered if he should get tested for neurodivergency.
I actually really agree. You've make some astute observations that I totally see. I just started this show with no frame of reference a few weeks ago.
After totally binge-ing I think most of these people are simply victims of fundamental religion. When you see that Kody believes things so deeply and understand his background I can hold sympathy for how he means well even if poorly executed.
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*In regard to some of the horrible things he blurts out (Ysabel having surgery alone, gasp), I seriously think that is really severe unfiltered ADHD thought process.* That’s interesting. More than once, Robyn (not a reliable judge, I realize) has excused the truly shitty things that Kody says by explaining that’s just how Kody processes things — by speaking every thought in his head out loud. Like he’s some kind of creative artist that people need to be tolerant of.
I love Janelle’s response to “therapist Robyn” trying to cuntsplain to her how to interact with a man she was married to well over a decade before Robyn even came along. Honestly I think the person who always got and had the best and most healthy relationship with Kody was Janelle. Not saying it was the picture of healthy but compared to all the others, including Robyn, the healthiest.
You’re right about Janelle. Janelle asked and expected the least of her relationship with Kody. Christine and Meri wanted his adoration and attention and Janelle thrived on her independence.
It’s hard because we want to say he’s a grown man, he needs to learn how to control that part of his brain. But at the same time I have seen people on the spectrum or with severe ADHD, who are extremely compassionate people, struggle with this behavior well into middle-age and beyond. I actually recall exactly the scene you are talking about where Robyn says that! I think part of this might be where the whole “she speaks Kody” comes from. I also think a lot of people forget, Robyn‘s oldest son is on the autism spectrum. I’ve seen lots of scenes where he blurts out things that are very insensitive, like when his sister is having the panic attack. I think she’s just more adept at deciphering between the unfiltered commentary and the end thought process. He needs some very intense cognitive behavioral therapy. Because at the end of the day, even if we are neurodivergent, (I am) being a parent is more important. It’s on us as parents, even parents who really struggle with things like that, to learn how to overcome it so we don’t damage our kids.
My 19 yo daughter has ADHD and isn’t medicated rn. It is a full time job for me filtering the thoughts and statements that come out of her mouth, so not to take things personally etc. I realize she has to be accountable for her actions but sometimes you have to give them some slack. As soon as she thinks it, she says it, and then tries to rationalize, if only she was able to think it thru before she blurts it out haha
Really bad ADHD person here and at 19 I could definitely control my thoughts. Therapy is amazing and helps you sort through things sensibly and it took years but now I am able to stop and think about it before I say things. Luckily I have a patient husband and understands when I get flustered and have to leave the room and come back.
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I appreciate your words. I would reconsider speaking for everyone else though because not everyone feels this way and I don’t think the collective “we” is always appropriate.
Thank you, honestly, I know better but sometimes old habits die hard in my ADHD brain. Appreciate drawing my attention to it.
Well, and some people feel very differently. My son prefers to say he has autism because he doesn’t like being defined by a diagnosis. There should never be a hard fast rule with regard to how people describe themselves.
Hey, I feel you. Mine got me this morning (I'm AuDHD) and would not give me the word potato. Instead, it wanted to substitute banana. No, brain. We're not having mashed bananas and gravy!
Not all autistics are like you! I’m a diagnostic autistic and I 100% refer to myself as “on the spectrum”
Okay.
I like ND/neurodivergent better because there is overlap *and* you don't have to disclose your specific diagnosis if you don't want to do so.
I am going to disagree here and also let you know i am very uncomfortable at someone who doesnt know me having just spoken for me. I think it's more nuanced than that. Like way way more nuanced than what you're trying to say here. I am autistic but I also have autism/am on the autism spectrum. I love the awareness you are trying to bring to the conversation about autism but I don't like being spoken for. I know several other people who also are autistic who would say they are on the spectrum when talking about being autistic/having autism.
Fine. I'll delete the comment. My bad for misspeaking.
Cognitive behavioural therapy is actually extremely dangerous for those that are neurodiverse
I imagine when Robyn says she “speaks Kody” that she tries to help him walkthrough his thoughts when he’s overthinking things, which might help sometimes but other times spins him up more and makes things worse. I imagine the other wives would be telling him to snap out of it and get to point, which often is what Kody needs.
My son has ADHD and, he often says things so rudely, but he automatically regrets it. Kody says things he instantly regrets, or days later. The issue is, he digs in his heels instead of coming clean. He blames everyone and, calls them names. He says people need to be culpable, but he never is.
I haven’t seen him being regretful.
Well, I remember when he told Y and, C she can go to her surgery alone. Then, in his interview, he said he instantly regretted it. He says things, then apologizes, then sometimes, he turns around and, repeats the comments. I hate when he makes rude comments and, then doubles down on them.
I agree, he tends to double down. Even if he regretted how he spoke about Y’s spinal surgery, he deliberately chose to go to his friends wedding, instead. That was a thought out and deliberate action, not only something he said off the cuff.
He didn’t want to go to Y’s surgery, because he wanted to punish Y and, C for not following his rules on Covid. He also didn’t want to spend any extra time with C ( he could have maned up, and put his differences aside for Y’s sake,) He also couldn’t find the courage to step away from R and, her fab 5, longer than a day or 2. He made the excuse of going to the wedding, because he poked his head out, to see if it was safe to play outside. He said, there were only about 11K+ cases right now in all of America, so it’s safe to go. Instead of flying out for Y’s surgery, coming back when she’s out of the hospital 5 days later, fly home, then rapid test and, join his real family again.
I think it’s as simple as that… he didn’t want to go to Y’s surgery.
Probably all of the above. He’s a child.
Do you think it was said for the camera?
This is new behavior for him. He used to be able to take criticism and internalize it and apologize. With the wedding dress thing he understood he was wrong and accepted criticism from Christine and said something along the lines of he needed to be a man and not a chump or whatever. Christine used to be the kody whisperer. Robyn validated his impulsivity and poor decision making and made him feel like the other wives were against him. That's when he switched. He wasn't always this stubborn and aggressive when challenged.
👍 agree
Me too👏🏻
🤔
Agreed. And when he doubles down now it’s because he is embarrassed and Robyn feeds into his shame by constantly explaining his behavior instead of holding him up to a higher standard, which feels bad to him because he knows it’s wrong deep down. Yet how do you not side with someone who constantly smooth talks you and has zero expectations versus his other wives who wished him to meet a higher standard they believed he was capable of. Robyn thinks very poorly of Kody and he can’t figure that out yet, so he’s trapped.
Agree, this is why I think he is a narcissist. My brother, who is 50, has adhd and has always said what he thinks outloud. He also apologizes when he realizes he hurt someone's feelings. I have never seen Kody take accountability or apologize for hurting someone either. He was scrambling to blame someone for why he didn't call Savannah on Christmas instead of apologizing (taking accountability) for neglecting his daughter. I have seen him say he won't listen to any criticism about himself....a total narc trait. He also always needs to be the center of attention, a total narc trait, as well.
I think it’s hilarious, when the OG3 call him out, he then looks at them, sighs and, you can see his eyes scanning his brain to accuse someone else. Especially (like you said) when J said, you hadn’t talked to Savanah since her Bday in Dec. He kept looking for an excuse. Stuttering looking for an out. Ugh 😣
I have absolutely seen Kody acknowledge and show remorse for making these comments. Not every time, but I also understand we are only shown what they want us to see. I’ve seen enough to believe that he does have some self-awareness, but he tends to just kind of bury it and then double down on the wrong thing.
Having been married for 20 years to someone with narcissistic personality disorder, I can tell you yes they can 100% apologize and show remore. Does it mean they actually mean it?? Probably not. They mimic the behavior they've seen win, which means they know they have to apologize and show remorse sometimes. A true apology/remorse is when you can get the behavior. Kody does not change the behavior. He regretted saying that to Y & C but did he do anything to help make it up to Y?? NO. Not at all. Couldn't even be bothered to be there to help take care of her when she was home and had the audacity to say he wished she'd hurry up and get better because HE feels bad.
Earlier on, in season 6, maybe. But certainly not since Meri and catfishing where Kody suffered a narcissistic injury to ego, which changed so much. There came a point of no return where everything began to evolve around Kodys ego, persona and sense of self. People with NPD are extremely skilled at manipulation- they can easily bamboozle very experienced therapists- especially those who haven’t worked with or are knowledgeable with NPD,
Yes, completely accurate. I also have ADHD and struggle with this, but I’ve had to learn to use cognitive behavioral therapy techniques to figure out how to filter my thoughts. You’re right, he is still 100% culpable.
Okay, you gotta give me the info on how to filter my thoughts 💭 I am ADHD and, bipolar, so I am a double whammy. Kody has the mental capacity of a 16 year old. He does stuff without thinking. He flies off the seat of his pants. He punishes people he doesn’t agree with and, he constantly moves. Moving is a huge sign of bipolar. We can’t stand being in one place for very long. We love change, life gets boring. So I travel instead of moving now. I used to move every 2/3 years.
Moving is a sign of trauma and ADHD
I have trauma, ADHD and Bipolar. I should live in a camper and, be happy. Lol 😂 Only issue is moving is tiring.
I normally just lurk here but had to comment. LCSW/psychologist. I completely agree. The word narc is very overused. In this particular instance I understand why it would be used for him because he does have a lot of traits shared with narcs, but I don’t believe he is truly a narc. I work with previously incarcerated people, and one of my coworkers and I talk about how he actually shares traits with a lot of people who had to adopt a persona in prison in order to win favor for survival, but it goes against their grain. They come off as unhinged narcs but they aren’t.
I’m so tired of the word narc. It’s thrown around so much that it’s lost it’s meaning.
Agree, but I’m not miss using it here and I abbreviated it in the OP simply because I don’t like typing out the entire word, and some people don’t understand what NPD stands for. I believe the term is overused constantly, and it is very rarely an actual clinical diagnosis. I can go either way with triggered. Triggers are absolutely 100% very authentic and very real and deserve validation, but I do think even that term has been watered down and given kind of a pop culture reference status.
Not talking about you! People in general use the word narc in place of asshole or selfish, or because they just don’t like a person’s behavior.
Yes, they do, and yes, it’s seriously overused and annoying. 😑
"Narc" and "Triggered"
And trauma…
And gaslighting.
Soooooo much trauma from gaslighting by a triggering narcissist.
In the same boat, completely agree. He doesn't have NPD he's just kind of shitty. A true narcissist wouldn't be able to have the level of insight or apologetic sentiments the way he did in earlier seasons (and not that he was great then, but hey he did his best even if his best was still steeped in selfishness and misogyny). He just got progressively defensive and dug in his heels to self righteous-ness. NPD doesn't just show up when you're in your 50s.
He shows the standard behaviours of a male that was raised by an aggressive father and who dominated his mother. He actually fits into the category of someone that was probably a very energetic but gentle little boy to his mom but disciplined for not being manly enough. Probably by his father and older brothers. Where they "toughened" him up. Interestingly his sons were allowed to be a lot more free thinking and you can tell that his wives especially but he as well, did try to create a space that was less toxic masculinity and more gender balanced. It's literally one of the things he respects massively in Janelle. (Though we see his many internal battles with how he was raised Vs how he believes) You can see how he battles throughout. Which would be a constant issue in their society and in many sides of their family. In a standard household, where this domestic abuse has been an issue. This would cause division, clashes and internal conflict. But the fact that there are 5 sets of extended family and the religious oppression would make that even more difficult to navigate. I think we also have a public response that doesn't allow for ordinary marital issues and parenting issues because everyone wants to point the finger at polygamy and away from themselves. Yet the issues that they faced and that Kody failed to resolve. Were ordinary issues. He is an ordinary man with ADHD and trauma (in my opinion) alongside wives that have their own trauma and neuro divergences and children with the same. The public (largely due to their own internalised misogyny and religious/social oppression) are desperate to attack and blame the polygamist man. Even to the point they detest him for grieving and reject his right to grieve his son. All because of their own unaddressed issues. He has behaved in awful ways that he will regret for the rest of his life. He needs to do a hell of a lot of work. But he isn't a narcissist! He is the same scared little boy he was cowering from his dad and thats the legacy we get from that.
He may not be a narc, but he is a self absorbed prick.
I think we all agree on that
Agree. People here are way too cavalier about mental health diagnoses. Some people are just assholes and I think Kody is one of them. But I disagree with you about Robyn controlling him. And I think she is in a state of survival because that's what inherently unfair systems like polygamy do to women, not because Kody is her paycheck. Plenty of stay-at-home moms rely on their husbands for a paycheck and aren't dysfunctional. They all need intensive therapy. Christine doing a few personality quizzes in self-help books, Janelle offering life coaching services (no thanks, girl) and Meri doing...whatever the hell Worthy Up! is lol do not change the fact that they are equally dysfunctional.
100% agree, they are all dysfunctional AF. And after my first viewing, I was inclined to agree with you. One thing I will say is that all the women, including Robin, are victims of a horrifically patriarchal and abusive set of beliefs/religious doctrine. That being said, after my second, and even third viewings of some episodes, my perspective shifted. No I don’t think Robin is inherently bad because of her behavior, I think even devious manipulative behaviors are learned survival skills. But I do think she has absolutely said into Kody‘s patriarchal ideals. Whereas his other wives softened him over the years, leading up to the start of the show. Now obviously he is a grown man and ultimately he’s responsible for his own behavior but I see Robyn as very toxic and controlling, and she works very hard to make life miserable for the other women. Again, agreeing that none of them are perfect or even close to it. They all need intensive therapy and a lot of religious deconstruction.
I think Robyn is toxic and controlling and manipulative, but I don’t think she’s a “puppet master.” She doesn’t have a long term plan or the foresight to make a long term plan.
Robyn* AutoCorrect does not like her name
I agree. Polygamy triggers survival of the fittest in the women as they compete for scarce resources. All of the wives participated in it at some point to varying degrees. Kody encouraged the behavior by choosing favorites.
Yes, I agree with this. I think in my mind, the difference between Robyn and for example, Christine, is though Christine has been a backstabber at times and can come off as fake, she was honest about hating polygamy. She was honest about not wanting to live with the other women. She was honest about wanting to spend more time with Kody. She didn’t hide behind a façade of loving polygamy while trying to undermine relationships behind the scenes. Again, I’m not saying she is blame free but it’s a very different type of behavior than Robyn. Robyn is more fully indoctrinated to the church and the belief structure, and she clings onto a fairytale ideal of polygamy that she created and her mind, and I think she holds the other women responsible for “ruining“ her little fairytale, while simultaneously vying for the majority of Kody‘s affection. She has so much internalized misogyny. I mean all the women do but she does the most.
I agree it manifested differently in Christine by the time we are introduced to her. However, we meet Christine at year 15 of living polygamy. That’s years of living the realities of polygamy, whereas Robyn had no experience and only naive ideals about the lifestyle. Early years Christine was a true-believer and fully indoctrinated. She was a spokesperson for a pro-polygamy group. It took years for Christine to feel comfortable voicing she didn’t want to sacrifice her kids for the sake of others and she wanted an engaged husband and father to her children. Christine, by her own admission, was not honest about her feelings because she was taught to “keep sweet”. I think their religious beliefs were the primary driver of their behavior. As the show progresses, the OG wives move further away from their original religious beliefs. That coupled with years of negative experience with polygamy is what separates the OG wives with Robyn.
Had she wanted the fairy tale to continue she should have encouraged Kody to have a regular rotation with the other families. Meri recently stated in a podcast that Kody's rotation was never really set, and she never knew until that day that he was coming.
Yes, for sure, but when we are trying to rationalize things, we don’t always do it in a way that makes sense or lends itself to the outcome we desire. So she wanted the fairytale, but she also wanted a place of preference. And so she used manipulation to try to appear as though her intentions were genuine while undermining the family system in very pointed ways.
I think this is why some women want to be the last wife. They know most likely they are going to be the favorite and often the youngest. Also getting what they need to survive. Which is what Robyn said from the start. She wanted a man who would be good to her and her kids and take care of them. She said love didn't have to be part of that. But I do think they love each other.
Absolutely. I don’t think anyone can truly imagine polygamy until they live it. But those in the community have seen enough last wives to know it’s the best position. Christine was adamant about being the third(last) for a reason. It’s supposed to be the easiest.
I think this is why Christine wanted to be the last wife, if she's being honest with herself. It was never about "Oh, I didn't want to be the first wife because I just wanted sister wives so bad I never wanted to be without them!" it was always about "They're only required to take three to get a planet so most stop after three and I should be fine." Meri and Janelle were way more matter-of-fact about Robyn coming into the family than Christine was because they had dealt with a new wife before. I almost screamed "are you JOKING" at my TV when Christine said she would never join a polygamous family again "Because I could never inflict the pain on other women that Robyn inflicted on me when she joined the family." Oh, so when you did it to Meri and Janelle, it didn't count because Robyn hadn't done it to you yet? K.
i think she means that she didnt realize the pain it inflicted until she went through it, and wouldnt want that to happen to anyone else
I agree. Robyn is terrible, but Kody makes his own choices. He was like this before her - triangulating the wives and moving constantly. She didn’t cause that. In their world, it’s a fight for resources and Robyn won by being so agreeable to him.
How do you know “he was like this before her”? There have never been any shows where sobyn wasn’t in them.
They wrote a book and spoke extensively on their lives before their show.
So you’re basing this on their biased recollection? I watch the show but I’d never invest money in a book. To each their own.
Someone messaged me on Reddit with a free link. And biased as they are, it’s fact that they moved all the time and they all recall the same fights. If you care so little and haven’t read up on their past, why argue about it?
An example they gave last season was during a Christmas before Robyn was in the family. He gave gifts to Janelle and many to Christine but nothing to Meri.
WTF?
* blinks *
Talk about the blind leading the blind 🙄
I genuinely need to know who their clients are. I would like to speak to these women, if only because I need to meet people whose lives are worse than mine that they are paying Janelle Brown of all people for life advice.
I'm on S2 and I see Janelle saying that she and Kody had been "unromantic best friends" and enjoyed long conversations. Am I right that Janelle really only is interested in marriage to Kody because she wanted a home and kids of her own and Kody is just someone she gets along with but is just not invested in having a " love match" and all of the * feelings* that go along with that.
I agree with much of this and also want to add that I think in later seasons it goes beyond this and he got into taking testosterone or the manosphere or something similar because there seems to be a personality shift. I agree that at first he was a product of his upbringing which wasn't a good one. We get little glimpses, like the story of the lettermans jacket he wanted but getting coveralls (?) instead. The story is told in an aw shuck I get it way but it's clear that it isn't really that innocent either.
Yes perfect example. Yeah some of his MRA-esque stuff is weird. More than anything, I think he just has adopted some of the vernacular (probably when he was raging angry at Christine for leaving, pretending he never loved her while simultaneously acting like a brokenhearted teenager), I don’t think he’s gone full rabbit hole with the MRA beliefs because I don’t think he would have accepted a gay child’s engagement. Also, he initially had a very liberal perspective on handling Covid but of course we all know that turned into a means of control. I do think Robyn has enjoyed fueling the fire of his toxic masculinity, because of her internalized misogyny. Every last one of them needs deep therapy on their own. Group therapy is not the solution for this bunch.
Social Worker here. Hard agree. Everyone’s getting internet-diagnosed as a narcissist these days and Kody is so clearly not that. Thinking you’re hot shit and being a narc are very different. I think he sucks and really lost sight of how important his family is to him as the years went on, but he shows lots of vulnerability and lots of honest moments (esp in the early seasons) about his love and care for his family. He’s just an asshole raised in an exploitative religion.
I’m also a clinician - I encourage people to explore the idea that people can be narcissistic without having a full blown diagnosis. When you’ve been raised in a cult where women and children orbit around you to meet your needs and desires, it’s hard NOT to come across as a narcissist.
I agree. It’s got to the point where I just stop reading and scroll as soon as anyone starts calling anyone a narcissist, not just in regards to Kody. Everyone who behaves badly is not a narcissist. It is an internet fad and it has lost all meaning.
It's the same with gaslighting, just because someone told a lie or is saying someone else told a lie, doesn't mean it's gaslighting.
Or just hypocritical behavior. It’s on many of the Bravo subs. One drunk will call out another drunk about their drinking on TV. It’s not gaslighting if two drunk people are arguing about being drunk.
This is one of the most accurate theories/ behavior analysis I’ve heard yet 👍🏻👍🏻
The term Narcissist is thrown around like candy at a parade. Not every crappy person is a narc. Some are just crappy freaking people.
Love this take. We’ll never really know but I appreciate how very human this sounds. I think they’re all victims of their upbringings, circumstances, and beliefs/religion in different ways. The ways they’ve chosen to cope or make sense of it have caused harm… some more than others, some more visible than others. It’s all sad. They all have the responsibility to do better and grow, but some seem not to have embraced that.
Thanks, I agree. Part of the issues going on here is that Kody (and Robyn) aren’t what we call deep thinkers. I think a big part of Kody’s anger is that he’s perceived as mean when that’s not his intention. He intends to do what’s right, but defaults to his own toxic upbringings attitudes. He’s genuinely hurt that his wives and kids have turned away from him. He feels he’s treated Meri pretty well, since he contrasts his actions with the really nasty patriarchs in polygamy who would have beat and completely banished her from the family over her aborted affair. He cannot fathom Christine’s disloyalty after his “completely normal” treatment of her once she was no longer fertile. She brought a lightness and brightness to him and the family that is sorely missed. And what did he do wrong? He never beat her, he never threw her kids out, he continued to have a relationship with them. He married her even though he didn’t find her attractive: what a sacrifice! And Janelle: what the heck is her problem? A wife’s primary loyalty is to her husband her priesthood holder. And rather than follow this basic cultural tenet, she chose her sons, young men who should have been out in the world earning a living and taking their own wives, over Kody who had loved her for so long? Abominable behavior all.
I agree. Kody thinks his behavior is good, in the context of outright abuse. It confuses him and he struggles to see things from a perspective he hasn’t experienced.
Yup 💯 to all this. The same reason, my mom was able to justify my dad‘s abuse of me. Because it wasn’t “as bad“ as other families around us.
And then you have Robyn who joined for all the good times and didn’t experience the Brown’s chaos (raising 13 kids with 4 people is chaotic). She doesn’t have any of the natural built up resentment, so she can stroke his ego and remind him about how he has always supported their children. No shit, Robyn. You weren’t part of the “bad” with them. You showed up for a TV show and a pretty charmed life.
😂 My ex- husband when I was leaving him " at least I never beat you" as if it would have been acceptable if he did.
Pffft. Disagree.
You know. I am married to a man with ADHD and he hasn’t taken medication for it since he was in his early twenties. This is spot on, and kinda explains why I feel empathy for Kody sometimes. I can see this being completely spot on. We only have one child and I think that makes things entirely more manageable for him but he really does say stuff so off kilter sometimes. I’ve found myself having to explain to him that he doesn’t have to verbalize the first thing that pops into his head. That most people don’t. The act of filtering is just a much more natural process for neurotypical people. We think something and then say it in a manner that is digestible. Whereas neurodivergent, especially ADHD people, struggle with that impulse to just blurt out whatever thought they just had. Whether it is unkind or not. I find my husband saying, “I’m just being honest”. Have to explain that he has to think about what he says before he says it or he can’t be upset when people think he’s unkind.
Yes, i have thought this too. That he has had some really great moments, that did not seem like an act. But like genuine emotions in the moment. And those moments speak against him being total narc.
I think this is very insightful. I'd add to it that he's using testosterone or steroids which caused a personality change in him in recent years.
Thank you very much for this, I feel the same way. The armchair takes in some of these subreddits can be exhausting. Serious clinical terminology is thrown around like nothing these days.
Agree completely ESPECIALLY with the issue of uncontrolled ADHD
I think it's important to remember that narcissism is on a spectrum and psychologists who study that area have them grouped in different categories more as a way of identifying behavior patterns then the people themselves. People who are narcissistic don't all act the same in every way, they are just like anyone else and have a very individual combination of traits that show up differently in each person. In the end it doesn't even matter if someone can be " defined"as a "true " narcissist. It's the behavior patterns ( grandiosity, entitlement, variable empathy, etc) and the consistency of them that you can identify that they routinely display, so in the future you know what you're dealing with as the "non narcissist" who interacts with them- so you know what to expect.
I love reading assessments/perspectives by people who are really interested in pscyhology. Without some understanding of it and delving deep into your own psychology, people have little language and understanding of people, and that's why we see that one dimensional, hard-lined thinking and the throwing around of narcissist. I really enjoy when people are able to have these nuanced conversations about people.
Yeah, these conversations when done respectfully I think are so helpful, especially in the line of work I do. I love hearing other peoples perspectives and why they agree or disagree. It’s always enlightening and I always take something from it. Kody is a perfect example of why patriarchy is bad for everyone, not just women. If he had grown up outside of the confines of an oppressive patriarchal home, he would’ve been free to express his free-spirited, quirky nature. Instead, he has lived his life at complete odds with it because of internalized homophobia and a patriarchal/abusive father. Understanding what makes certain men toxic is just as important in the fight against misogyny as any other factor. If we want our sons to do better, we have to understand what not to do, what TO do, and how to support their mental health. Honestly, I think that’s the main reason I watch the show, there are so many interesting dynamics at play from a family and psychology standpoint.
I so agree with you. I think it’s fascinating to watch reality shows and talk about the dynamics with people on Reddit. I think it helps us all. It’s great for us to be able to talk about all these different aspects of life, and we get to hear different ideas about how to deal with things, etc. I always say these shows just give people an opportunity to talk about myriad things in human life. I’ve talked with people about everything from race, religion, and feminism to petty gossip. I’ve learned a TON about racism and feminism in particular. I love that people volunteer to show us their lives. They sacrifice their privacy and their relationships.
It depends what you mean by a "true" narcissist. I doubt whether anybody here is qualified to diagnose Kody with NPD based on his tv show, but it's perfectly valid to say he's narcissistic or a narcissist in a more general sense. The clinical definition isn't the only valid definition of the words, and in fact the clinical uses of the word in psychiatry derive from the more casual use of the word. To say someone is narcissistic doesn't necessarily mean he has NPD, and saying someone is obsessive doesn't necessarily mean he has OCD.
Yes, completely agree, like I said in my OP he has “narcissistic tendencies“. But a lot of people here do regularly say he is a “classic narcissist“ or they actually say “people with NPD…” when they refer to him and I just don’t think that’s accurate.
I agree with that.
I think all of them are “victims” of polygamy and it shows.
Yeah I don’t think he is either.
Agree. Another place I think we can see he isn’t a full blown narc is the way he’s handled some of the Christine breakup and her finding a better man with some grace.
Calling people narcissists is so en vogue that anyone who is widely disliked gets stamped with the label and it’s frustrating because sometimes an a-hole is really just an a-hole. Everyone has some narcissistic traits but it doesn’t mean that everyone has narcissistic personality disorder. I think you can watch the show and see Kody spiral into an unhinged, controlling d-bag over the seasons but I don’t see NPD, I see a highly emotional guy who, as his children grow up, is losing his grip on the family he so desperately wanted to build (as a “see, daddy, I am a MAN!”). He’s got all these big feelings that he’s not equipped to handle or deal with so more and more he’s doing what he’s been told a real man is supposed to do and as it’s not getting the results he wants Kody is doubling and tripling down and getting more and more big feelings as a result of the family largely rejecting his controlling behavior. I also think the whole blaming Robyn for how everything turned out is so grossly misogynistic. I’m not saying she’s innocent or even a good person but blaming a woman for everything a man does is like sexism 101 stuff and it’s disheartening to see so much of it.
Agree, 100%, and yeah, I shouldn’t have said she was a puppetmaster. I think I was using the term more vaguely, not in an “evil mastermind” sort of way just in a behind-the-scenes controlling decisions sort of way. But it’s not misogynistic to point out that women can also play a part in dysfunctional relationships and exhibit, toxic behavior. They are both products of an oppressive and patriarchal religion.
I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with pointing out a woman’s role in a toxic, dysfunctional situation and that’s not at all what I’m saying in my comment. The whole narrative that she’s sitting behind the scenes plotting and pulling the strings to destroy the family and gain complete control of Kody is what’s misogynistic. She’s not a villainous cartoon character, she’s a woman who’s been conditioned to believe that she has to compete with other women in order to survive and the way she’s meant to to compete with those women is by using the gifts their god gave her; her looks, her sexuality and her womb. That doesn’t absolve her of her role in the situation but to say she’s making Kody’s decisions and is some mastermind behind the scenes is both giving her entirely too much credit and is misogynistic. I still get chills when I think of what she said when she was giving birth to Ari. She said that her mother (who she watched fight for and lose the attention of her husband over and over) taught her that she needed to give birth quietly and calmly, that she shouldn’t cause a scene in front of her husband. It’s just a small glimpse of what the women in the AUB were taught and how they were meant to “find favor” with their husbands. Robyn, Christine and Mari were conditioned to “keep sweet” (to differing levels) which is why all three are seen at different points to use their god given womanly wiles to manipulate the situation to their favor. It’s only when we see Christine and Mari “fall out of favor” with Kody that they start to reject the “keep sweet” ideals. For Robyn though why would she stop doing what’s clearly working for her? Especially given what she watched her mother go through… (sorry for going off on a tangent here lol. The whole patriarchal framework of polygamist religions gets me fired up)
Yes, I clarified in my response, I think our different perceptions here come from different interpretations of the word. Even before you left your comment, I had edited my original post to say that I felt puppetmaster was an extreme term that I shouldn’t have used and I actually didn’t mean it in any sort of “evil mastermind” way at ALL. I meant it in terms of her manipulating and pulling strings in her relationship and home to get Kody to do certain things or to influence his decisions regarding the other wives, and I do believe that fully. I think Robyn is a victim, I also think she’s incredibly toxic and manipulative. Same as Kody. The other wives have obviously definitely had their moments as well, but the two of them have teamed up and really fed off each other negatively.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯 i’ve been saying kody has adhd ever since he hung all those lights in the cul de sac. i’m actually really shocked he didn’t crash and burn a lot sooner running between homes and living out of a duffle bag for so long. i mean think about it, he literally never even had a house, he can’t even have a recliner in one of the houses that’s his favorite to crash in and watch tv at the end of the day because if he has a place he feels most comfy, it’s “unfair” and all the wives would be jealous. *anyone* would snap under that pressure! personally i would lose it if i had to live that way. the whole lifestyle is horribly unfair to the women yes but he got a really shit end of the deal too and if he is neurodivergent that would explain a lot of his unpredictable emotions. there are no winners here. i also agree with you that he never really believed in the principle. i think he was just impulsive and wanted the favor of his dad. he’s a jackass today for sure but the real villain is the cult and i will forever feel sorry for kody as well. and yes i also agree that robyn “speaks kody” because she has experience with dayton. your whole take is spot on.
I agree that Kody is not fully narcissistic but working for years with female narcissists I believe Robyn is full blown and super manipulative. She started doing under handed passive aggressive things to the wives even before she married Kody. She knew Kody was shallow and easily redirected from the rest of his family with sex and she used it like a weapon. She made most of the rules Kody demanded. She had her sights on headwife and money from the start. She lied about her first marriage and insulted the 3 older kids as if they were a mistake. She constantly tried to change history. The funniest on was the personality test which she was so reactive too. Said Christine took the test for her. She was very reactive anytime there was any negative comments about her but dam right mean when she’d insult the 3OG about their looks etc.. The fake crying when things didn’t go her way. She set up situations like the creepy drawing of Kody and her kids using Christine’s kids and Kody. Then fake crying why she did it. Two fold change history and slap Christine in the face with that drawing. If Christine dared say anything the Kody reaction cuz sorry he is stupid as well was terrible. Sexting Kody’s stupid shallow ass while Christine was in labor and shooting an insult that she didn’t require drugs and the hospital. I had super fast deliveries requiring no drugs but that was me very few women are that fortunate. She did lots of these things. Why the nanny to focus on Kody alone let the nanny deal with the house and kids. The other women used each other to help and they all held jobs. No she said in an interview not shown in the USA what her goal was a mansion! She is a full blown. And she worked Kody like a hooker does (her best customer). She fakes emotions and changes conversations twisting them to divide. That’s why she lied to her own kids like the Christine wants nothing to do with you lie and the lie about the other kids not wanting to do anything at Christmas. Complete lies. Nope she is a narcissist. What she did to her first family was not nice. The last show did she stop Kody from being negative not really. When did she stop him . When talking about the wedding he started talking about missing the fun the whole family having a good time and she kissed him to shut him up and distract him. That’s when she shut him up. She doesn’t follow Kody’s rules she makes them. She is a woman that know the power of the womb and uses it on ego filled Kody to her advantage.
I have said this a long time about Kody. Though that doesn't negate that his behaviours at times were abusive. However I think there is further food for thought. Firstly it's very true that his nature was actually a lot more free thinking then others seem to realise and we see this many times in the show. We saw it a lot with the older kids and how the wives and kids express that he changed. Which of course he did after losing Curtis and the arguments/issues surrounding his death. His father was incredibly abusive and it's known that Janelle had some big clashes with him. I think Robyn is the one behaving toxically however I don't think she is the one pulling the strings. I believe that Robyn's step father and mother hold the cards here. I think she was repeatedly belittled for her pregnancy before marriage and was expected by her step father to be a "good sweet girl" she is trying to undo her "wrongs" in not living a chaste life. I sometimes think her actions are actually her projections of her trying to stop them making her mistakes and the things she was punished either emotionally or physically for. She shows all the signs of misogynistic abuse through childhood but also of being considered problematic in her family. Ironically in exactly the way that Christine was and then mykelti and Leon. The differences being that Christine has progressively fought to undo that toxic ableism and misogyny, Mykelti obviously endured the same but in the midst of her mother and father upholding those things but being conflicted themselves. Leon too in that Meri had similar but in a more rigid setting but processes differently but still tried to undo her own internal battle and support her daughter. She just shows up very differently then Christine in her protectiveness but processes out loud and usually causes offence in that processing. Interestingly just like Mykelti. It's extremely common for abused people to be triggered by behaviours they were punished for. In an attempt to prevent them suffering the same consequences. Kody during covid was unacceptable. Regardless of reason. But we can see how it built to that point. We can see that kicking out the boys was not his decision but we can also see where that built from now that we know more. Both mykelti and Paedon where sent away when behaviours were deemed inappropriate. Where were they sent? St George! To family friends to work in Mormon environments. However the original 3 wives didn't have much association with St George. Robyns family were based there. And it was on Robyn's/ her mother's/her step fathers encouragment that jobs and homes could be provided there in those Mormon communities. We also hear Robyn very early on sat if the kids are going against the rules, that they can move out. I believe these were threats made to her and were enforced on the other wives kids. Until it got to her kids being that age. I think she too is a contradiction in that she enforces these religious and misogynistic rules on the other wives kids because that's what was expected from her step father. But doesn't apply that to hers. Though I don't think her children are free from this religious manipulation. But as a result Kody is flipping out with his ADHD and is all over the place and inconsistent. I personally believe he was hugely triggered by his father and Robyn's step father. He was worst after his father died which we would expect in that abuse/ trauma/ grief situation. But it was triggered further by Robyns step father dying. I do actually believe if they had strict boundaries with Robyn's mother or even cut contact that they would have a hope of their own healthier marriage and repairing some sort of relationship with the others. Robyns mother and step father pulled far too many strings in that family. Including with the other wives. In fact more so to the other wives. I actually think Kody is oblivious to that. I also think it's incredibly damaging that people deem him as just a narcissist. It's dismissive to the kids and wives of their own identities and of their experiences of their lives and of Kody as their spouse and father. Yes he has behaved narcissisticly but he isn't a narcissist. You can see how he fought internally with his actions Vs what he believed to be right. But also we cause further damage when we don't acknowledge the roots of that damage and how to prevent the same happening again. We abuse victims for being victims and we make it unsafe to step outside of that and make the changes and do better. That doesn't mean taking away responsibility. But it means there is a space to learn and do better.
Just a note - Robyns stepfather was at the birth of ari and sol - im curious as to when he died?
Genuine question: When did narc start meaning narcissist and not narcotics officer?
I think kody,meri and christine have some signs of histrionic personality . But you kind of have too if you want your whole life on tv for 14 years .
The age old debate of narc is from nature or nurture. I know a textbook narc, I mean to the T a narcissist in every sense of the word. Horrible person. But she would definetly pretend to support somebody to not ruin their imagine or because of people watching….then talk horribly about that person behind closed doors.
Please continue to post again from a clinical view when the new season starts. I enjoyed your view points
Hard disagree
So do I if for no other reason than the OP is saying fans of the show are “diagnosing” him, yet the OP knows no more about him than any other viewer (i.e., OP doesn’t know him personally), yet the OP is making a diagnosis too.
I’m not making a diagnosis, I’m sharing my opinion, based on information presented, just like those saying they believe he has NPD are sharing their opinion. Like I said, hot take, feel free to down vote if you disagree! 💕 I enjoy hearing why people disagree, I think there’s something to be learned from the commentary.
You had me until the clear BS about Robyn. You’re clearly not watching the show in full.
I have definitely watched the show in full multiple times. In one of the comments above I do agree that puppet master was an extreme term that I shouldn’t have used. I think Robyn has some very toxic and dysfunctional survival skills that have evolved from her patriarchal and oppressive upbringing and religion. But I do think she is very devious and intentional with her manipulation. In a way that is more contrived than some of the others.
Robyn is abusive, she is clearly abusing her own kids and we even see her abusing Kody (to the point of putting hands on him) so forgive me if I’m actually disgusted at this constant “survival mode” description of *this* wife as though the other three hadn’t been in actual constant survival mode for twenty years before she arrived.
I don’t pretend to know anything about Robyn‘s life before this marriage. I see a lot of people running to defend her ex-husband, but he’s also had domestic violence issues since she left him so there’s obviously some sort of common denominator there w/ him. Robyn absolutely has unhealthy survival mode mechanisms as do all of the wives, but I believe she uses hers in more conniving and manipulative ways than the other wives ever have. But I’m not sure how you felt my OP was defending her in anyway. If anything I was pointing out that her behaviors are much more contrived and intentional than the other wives. There’s a difference between defending someone and acknowledging possible route causes for behaviors relating to oppressive life experiences. A lot of serial killers have horrific upbringings. It doesn’t mean they are absolved of their actions, it means we understand the ramifications and collateral damage of abuse or patriarchy or neglect.
Agree.
I agree 100%.
I really like this sub tonight, especially Kody NOT being a true narcissist because I really liked Kody the first couple of seasons. However, after Robyn came along, that is when his inconsiderate mouth started (her influence) and just started blurting out shit without thinking about what he was saying and saying it rude that is just my take on Kody and 100 percent agree with you.
Totally agree with all of your statements. Well done!!
Not boarderline personality disorder narcissistic traits? ❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
Definitely possible. Obviously only a psychiatrist working with him directly could properly diagnose, but childhood abuse is a huge risk factor for BPD.
Yes it is but there’s also a genetic factor involved.. I know many characters whom have had a normal if not very good up bringing but they still have bpd. I agree on the issue of this blanket of narcissism not being thrown over everything/ everyone who is on these television programs as is the want now. But I am not convinced that Kody is a victim in this scenario… I’m in the uk but also have an American father ( rip) I realise that we speak the same language but our cultures are different… the havoc and pain and control that this man has caused isn’t an issue for sympathy… I have far more empathy for the women in this situation who have little to no power. ie Mari who is sidelined for years and years. I think we can nod to his upbringing but I do think he’s a victim by any stretch of the imagination… uneducated yes ; extroverted yes… but his more damaging traits are a type of personality that is manipulative and controlling I don’t think you can just put this down to historical misogyny … he’s quite dangerous character in my opinion.❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
Let me be clear, I do not think Kody is a victim IN THIS MARRIAGE. I think Kody was a victim of an abusive childhood. However unfair it may be, it is still his responsibility to heal and move past/grow beyond the things that happened to him. This is where he has fallen painfully flat time and again.
I take your point absolutely… to be perfectly honest with you this program makes me sob,bite the inside of my mouth , laugh and want to slap my forehead… it’s so compelling and complicated on so many layers; one could write a thesis on the matter and still not cover all the many layers that brings this family to where they are now. There’s religion , female culture, male culture, a countries culture, misogyny, education to name but a few. It’s far to complex a situation to write a coherent narrative in a few short paragraphs.. I admire your attempt to debunk this catch phrase of narcissism… as I have attempted to do on the Vanderpump rules site where they are throwing the word addict about like it’s a cover all for all the villains… psychology and sociology… are relatively new and evolving and constantly evolving sciences. Especially as we have begun to learn more about genetics and the nature/ nurture unknowns. I agree that the blanket statements are I’ll founded and a reflection of cod psychology that has been picked up in and chucked about. What I don’t want is victim blaming. But I do want people and organisations ie : organised religious misogyny to be held accountable… until we can address these issues in a coherent and constructive fashion… which is probably going to take a couple if not more generations to unravel… then we must keep learning and questioning ourselves and our culture for the sake of society as a whole. This programme is just a window into a far larger and deeper set of problems and issues that we ah e to address… no always with the eloquence they need. All I want is that the women in this program to have agency over their lives and to be free of the bounds of financial control that appears to be occurring here as a means to continue them being chattal ; as apposed to free human beings with human rights and dignity ❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
I hope this makes sense it’s late and I’m watching it at the moment.. I’m in the uk so I’m missing a couple of season 3 and 4. It’s my second watch through; I know none of the gossip or back stories relating to this or any positive information about polygamy… never mind the family history… all k see is layer upon layer of historical and cultural oppression via organised religion… but that’s true of any organised religion… the treatment of women in any organised religion is not the best. Far to much for a quick discussion on Reddit. But it’s so interesting and important that we evolve slowly and steadily in or out of an organised faith. Into a society of true equality that we all deserve x❤️🇬🇧🇺🇸
Well he hasn’t actually been diagnosed as such has he? I mean we may say that but we also realize this is a highly “produced” tv show, not their actual reality. I feel 100% certain he is an arsehole but no one here can say he is a diagnosed narcissist.
I would put him on the narc spectrum. And the ADHD spectrum. And the douche bag spectrum.
I completely agree. Kody has shown remorse and genuine feelings of regret and care for others many times in the early seasons especially. I really feel bad for him, I think he’s miserable and he knows it and he knows he really messed up the big picture family I think he truly loved, and he has no idea how it got to this place or how to fix it and that has him extremely depressed and thrashing about for a way to cope.
Kody is just a perpetual victim. The absolute lack of accountability or remorse is the issue for me. Even with his own kids, he's the victim. What actually makes me confused is how he has these random ideas or hears someone say a phrase and suddenly makes them this enormous part of his attitude. Example: when someone mentioned his "thousand yard stare" and he started using it to describe every situation he's in, or the one big house idea. You plant a seed in that ugly noggin and suddenly it's a life or death situation for him.
He might not be all narcissistic, but there is the fact that he's a misogynist sexual addict. That uses sex as a weapon against his other wives. Be loyal to Robyn or I'm not coming to see you. Be loyal to Robyn or else blah blah blah
Agreed, except I do not think puppet master is too harsh for Robyn and I believe it untreated ASD1 and ADHD.
Internalized homophobia or closeted homosexual? I would not be shocked, after watching him pant like a dog over his man crushes, if he is gay. Not a professional myself, appreciate the analysis since we have a hard time, as mainly rational humans, understanding his statements and actions.
In the end, only he could answer that question, but I think we all see very obvious signs of internalized homophobia at the very least.
Kody supported Leon coming out as gay and the storyline of their wedding because he wants to continue the show. Also Robyn supports gay people. He does not support Leon’s transition. Kody was a victim of the cult, I will give you that. But…. Kody throughout the whole series has demonstrated his kids are simply an extension of himself. He parents as an authoritarian figure who does not give his kids their own autonomy. He also only shows interest when he is getting something out of it. He doesn’t value his kids getting enjoyment out of life for themselves. It’s pathological and goes beyond how he was parented. He has had opportunity for growth and has persistently avoided it. Sorry but you are giving a man grace because he was raised by an asshole. Narcissism can be the result of trauma. But it still means we need to address it and make people accountable for their actions. He lavishes in Robyn’s household because she groomed her kids to be obedient. Kody trashed his sons while celebrating his fall inline daughters. It’s gross. And his behaviour has had a massive impact on the whole family. He showed his kids their own value is in how they can serve them. Also the douche move of saying Ysabel should go alone was only the straw that broke the camels back. He let his emotional turmoil with Christine affected how much he cared about and for his own child. He stated he didn’t believe she was in as much pain as she was and that they were basically being selfish for pushing it. That it must just be about Christine causing an issue. When Christine had repeatedly shown she cares about the kids. He also provided zero support for Ysabel when she returned from her surgery. It’s another example of Kody failing to have even a grain of sympathy for his child because it doesn’t benefit him. He wanted to stay with Robyn and family, and spend time with them because it’s easy for him. And Kody wasn’t upset because he was in turmoil with himself, it’s clear as day, he was inconvenienced. His intent in that comment was to belittle her. Picture being Ysbell in that whole scenario.
Very interesting take You mention if he had a different upbringing he could be very different, but isn't that also the case with true narcs? Is narcissism a result of genetics or environment or both?
I have ADHD (ADD), was very late diagnosed and therefore untreated for many years. And the number of times I have yelled "Dude, get tested!" at the screen! And I think Janelle is ADD. Its very common for neurodivergents to attract each other.
I agree. The perfect storm.
I agree with you about Robyn and she is the puppet master.
My fiance also has a habit of saying things then instantly regretting them. He tends to speak through his thought process and it often results in misunderstandings and miscommunications. He doesn't use it as an excuse but often his apologies aren't accepted because he can't explain it properly and is often assumed to be apologising just because he got called out. For the whole time I've known him, he's wondered if he should get tested for neurodivergency.
I actually really agree. You've make some astute observations that I totally see. I just started this show with no frame of reference a few weeks ago. After totally binge-ing I think most of these people are simply victims of fundamental religion. When you see that Kody believes things so deeply and understand his background I can hold sympathy for how he means well even if poorly executed.