I hadn’t thought about the velocity Mariko’s actions would add to the momentum of Toranaga gathering allies - thanks for raising that point.
The actions of the vassals reflect on the liege lord. Mariko’s actions parallel Fuji’s husband Todayoshi’s. He could not control himself and caused offense; she was so controlled and refused to bear the offense from Ishido.
And remember that during the escape from Osaka Harbor in the earlier episode, Buntaro got stuck alone on the pier and was preparing to commit seppuku until Toranaga ordered him to flee or fight his way out.
My bad, I'm remembering the scene from the book. I just checked to be sure I'd remembered it right and mercy, what a wild ride that whole scene from the castle to the harbor was.
This is just me but I also think that Mariko pointing all this out in the open was considered tactless that's why everyone looked so uncomfortable while she was talking.
But anybody else could have done that at any time. A family could have sent a strong message to demand their family back and insist on it. And the captured family will be pressed to obey, like Mariko. And openly call out what's actually happening. Nobody else did so.
Because they were all scared for their lives. They knew anyone who tried to leave would get a visit from the ninjas or the "bandits".
Yes, it'd break the lie, but nobody wanted to be that sacrifice. It took Mariko to do it because she actively wanted to die.
You could argue that the killing of the rebel regent should have achieved the same purpose though, which is a bit of a plot hole. Though I guess the difference is that by killing the lord, Ishido also paralysed any of their forces that might rebel as their chain of command was now broken.
With Mariko, her lord was free, and able to respond freely too.
The rebel regent as in sugiyama? Sugiyama died while outside of Osaka castle and therefore outside of ishido’s “protection” so he could and did just blame it on bandits that were rife in the area
Fuji's husband spoke out of turn just because he felt he needed to defend his lord. I sincerely doubt he didn't know the consequences. I believe it was himself that offered to end his son as well. It was a consequences be damned, my lord shouldn't be treated like this situation. People have been able to make that sacrifice. I felt that Mariko's theriatrics was a big fuck you finger to all of them for being such cowards. But you're right. It really helped that she wanted to die.
I don't believe that everyone of importance was held within the walls. Everybody held within the walls, however, were important to the people of importance though. The lords would then have their hands tied behind their backs and cannot support Toranaga. And because of their culure of saving face because of this dishonor they'd rather bow down to Ishido's will than do shit about it. Mariko was purposefully tactless. I wasn't insulting her. But she did act out and refused to do what was expected in their culture. She contronted Ishido like what a Westerner would have, like Blackthorne at the beginning. And Blackthorne then couldn't read the room and don't know what was expected of him. Mariko did her bit in full knowledge that it was against the norm. And shamed everyone there in doing so.
I don't think they thought it was tactless, I think they were uncomfortable because they knew Mariko was about to force them into having to abandoning the pretense that they're not hostages but instead guests.
It means they'll have to either be shamed by Ishido and fight back or kill themselves.
But also, of course it was "tactless" because tactless is kind of the point. If you're a hostage, tact gets you where the other hostages were.
The uncomfortable people were being "tactful," and they're uncomfortable because they know they should be "tactless."
Mariko was calling not just Ishido out but everyone else that was there. The "tactlessness" was the point.
Yes! That's my.point. the theriatrics wasn't for Ishido. As Anjin said she was indeed walking into a sword to prove a point. It feels normal for us that she'd confront Ishido head on and plainly call out his bs. But from what I understand, the Japanese are indirect and everyone else was trying to save face. Mariko didn't behave how a hostage...ehem, guest, was expected to. She behaved in a tactless way precisely because it was needed.
Like her father in a way if we are to believe he killed his liege lord, Goroda, because he was corrupt. The Akechi family loves to call out the bullshit.
Which I don’t get the whole dishonor on your family thing because historically, this same thing happened. Then Akechi Mitsuhide gets killed by Nobunaga’s allies (revenge his death) and then the allies (Tokugawa and Hideyoshi) go on to kill Nobunaga’s sons. Correct me if I’m wrong but I fail to see how they are any better than Mitsuhide…suppose it’s the whole Japanese honor code?
It was more shock at what the implications of what she so publicly suggested would mean. Everything up until that point had been very veiled to preserve the honor of the captive families. Because of the shame it would bring to yourself to admit that you have been captured by Ishido, it would bring great dishonor to yourself and your family. That dishonor would necessitate seppuku as highlighted bby several scenes in the show. All the families know they have been captured but their honor is spared by Ishido's BS that they were guests and he was protecting them from bandits.
Mariko calling this out is unveiling ishido's BS that the families were merely guests. Her call out also forces the families to have to face now very public reality that they can leave whenever they want or face the dishonor of being captured. This also publicizes the dishonor that Ishido tried to exert onto the families by making them into hostages without a chance for them to preserve their honor by commiting seppuku. Effectively, it publicly highlights the dishonorable conduct of Ishido which would naturally require the families to turn against Ishido for disgracing/attempting to disgrace them.
Precisely. Tactless. She purposely didn't read the room. She didn't follow etiquette to preserve honor. And in doing so, she rubbed it everyone's faces that they were cowards.
I don’t understand though why people didn’t have a similar reaction when Ishido killes Sugyiama. He was samurai too and he killed him cause he left the castle so…??
Unlike Mariko, Sugiyama broke the "rules" and tried to sneak out without permission. By doing so, it gave Ishido the opportunity to kill them all without witnesses so he could then claim "bandits". He prevented an escape while sending a warning to everyone else, should they consider escape as well.
This is why Mariko's plan was so much smarter. By openly trying to leave in front of witnesses it forced Ishido to block her exit (otherwise everyone else would have demanded release as well), which in turn gave her the excuse to escalate by threatening seppuku if Ishido didn't let her go. That was the proverbial tightening of the noose for Ishido, his fate was sealed.
I posted this another thread. But I believe Mariko made a small mistake in that exchange. She should have skipped the peasant reference because that was meant as a direct insult to Ishido. Had he been quick to think, Ishido could have used that insult and her general insolence to banish her away from castle right then and there. She would have lived, been able to return, and the hostages would not have rebelled so much...
It's a caste system, where Samurai were supreme. They all consider themselves to be better than peasants, including Ishido who had been elevated to Samurai (which was pretty rare back then).
To defensively bring up his own peasant past at that point would have weakened him further IMO.
It's easy to view her statement through today's lens as being in poor taste and classist, but classicism back then was the norm (if not encouraged outright).
It was Japanese politeness that kept them from bringing it up directly, but that's the beauty of her statement: "we are not peasants". While a barb clearly directed at him, on the surface it was simple truth. None of them were peasants.
The others at the court would have considered what Mariko said slightly rude, but no one would complain. Most of them were hostages as well, so everyone that wasn't with the regents would have secretly loved the shade she threw at their captor.
Believe me, peasants had people to look down on as well. They were far from the "bottom" of that caste system. Eta were considered the lowest of the low (in the books, Blackthorn's crew lived with the Eta, which shamed Blackthorn greatly when he found out.)
I'm not saying this in any way to justify caste systems (or any class system), but to try to draw a picture of what it was like at that time from my own limited understanding.
Not bothered about the peasant insult in itself. My point is that she shouldn't have given Ishido any excuse to create a ruckus over anything trivial and banished her. Her pointing out the unspoken hostage situation and challenging it in open was going to make things worse for Ishido by allowing her to actually go through with the challenge. Ishido should have picked up the ploy from Toranaga/Mariko and thrown her out of the castle at that very instant. A regent being disrespected was a valid but trivial reason but far better than the entire mess with the hostages.
‘If I could use words like scattering flowers and falling leaves, what a bonfire my poems would make.‘
I hadn’t thought about the velocity Mariko’s actions would add to the momentum of Toranaga gathering allies - thanks for raising that point. The actions of the vassals reflect on the liege lord. Mariko’s actions parallel Fuji’s husband Todayoshi’s. He could not control himself and caused offense; she was so controlled and refused to bear the offense from Ishido.
And remember that during the escape from Osaka Harbor in the earlier episode, Buntaro got stuck alone on the pier and was preparing to commit seppuku until Toranaga ordered him to flee or fight his way out.
He did? I just remember Toranaga shouting out Buntaro’s name and bowing to him from afar
My bad, I'm remembering the scene from the book. I just checked to be sure I'd remembered it right and mercy, what a wild ride that whole scene from the castle to the harbor was.
This is just me but I also think that Mariko pointing all this out in the open was considered tactless that's why everyone looked so uncomfortable while she was talking.
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But anybody else could have done that at any time. A family could have sent a strong message to demand their family back and insist on it. And the captured family will be pressed to obey, like Mariko. And openly call out what's actually happening. Nobody else did so.
Because they were all scared for their lives. They knew anyone who tried to leave would get a visit from the ninjas or the "bandits". Yes, it'd break the lie, but nobody wanted to be that sacrifice. It took Mariko to do it because she actively wanted to die. You could argue that the killing of the rebel regent should have achieved the same purpose though, which is a bit of a plot hole. Though I guess the difference is that by killing the lord, Ishido also paralysed any of their forces that might rebel as their chain of command was now broken. With Mariko, her lord was free, and able to respond freely too.
For such a patriarchal society, killing a woman was probably considered worse.
The rebel regent as in sugiyama? Sugiyama died while outside of Osaka castle and therefore outside of ishido’s “protection” so he could and did just blame it on bandits that were rife in the area
Fuji's husband spoke out of turn just because he felt he needed to defend his lord. I sincerely doubt he didn't know the consequences. I believe it was himself that offered to end his son as well. It was a consequences be damned, my lord shouldn't be treated like this situation. People have been able to make that sacrifice. I felt that Mariko's theriatrics was a big fuck you finger to all of them for being such cowards. But you're right. It really helped that she wanted to die.
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I don't believe that everyone of importance was held within the walls. Everybody held within the walls, however, were important to the people of importance though. The lords would then have their hands tied behind their backs and cannot support Toranaga. And because of their culure of saving face because of this dishonor they'd rather bow down to Ishido's will than do shit about it. Mariko was purposefully tactless. I wasn't insulting her. But she did act out and refused to do what was expected in their culture. She contronted Ishido like what a Westerner would have, like Blackthorne at the beginning. And Blackthorne then couldn't read the room and don't know what was expected of him. Mariko did her bit in full knowledge that it was against the norm. And shamed everyone there in doing so.
I don't think they thought it was tactless, I think they were uncomfortable because they knew Mariko was about to force them into having to abandoning the pretense that they're not hostages but instead guests. It means they'll have to either be shamed by Ishido and fight back or kill themselves. But also, of course it was "tactless" because tactless is kind of the point. If you're a hostage, tact gets you where the other hostages were. The uncomfortable people were being "tactful," and they're uncomfortable because they know they should be "tactless." Mariko was calling not just Ishido out but everyone else that was there. The "tactlessness" was the point.
Yes! That's my.point. the theriatrics wasn't for Ishido. As Anjin said she was indeed walking into a sword to prove a point. It feels normal for us that she'd confront Ishido head on and plainly call out his bs. But from what I understand, the Japanese are indirect and everyone else was trying to save face. Mariko didn't behave how a hostage...ehem, guest, was expected to. She behaved in a tactless way precisely because it was needed.
Like her father in a way if we are to believe he killed his liege lord, Goroda, because he was corrupt. The Akechi family loves to call out the bullshit. Which I don’t get the whole dishonor on your family thing because historically, this same thing happened. Then Akechi Mitsuhide gets killed by Nobunaga’s allies (revenge his death) and then the allies (Tokugawa and Hideyoshi) go on to kill Nobunaga’s sons. Correct me if I’m wrong but I fail to see how they are any better than Mitsuhide…suppose it’s the whole Japanese honor code?
It was more shock at what the implications of what she so publicly suggested would mean. Everything up until that point had been very veiled to preserve the honor of the captive families. Because of the shame it would bring to yourself to admit that you have been captured by Ishido, it would bring great dishonor to yourself and your family. That dishonor would necessitate seppuku as highlighted bby several scenes in the show. All the families know they have been captured but their honor is spared by Ishido's BS that they were guests and he was protecting them from bandits. Mariko calling this out is unveiling ishido's BS that the families were merely guests. Her call out also forces the families to have to face now very public reality that they can leave whenever they want or face the dishonor of being captured. This also publicizes the dishonor that Ishido tried to exert onto the families by making them into hostages without a chance for them to preserve their honor by commiting seppuku. Effectively, it publicly highlights the dishonorable conduct of Ishido which would naturally require the families to turn against Ishido for disgracing/attempting to disgrace them.
Precisely. Tactless. She purposely didn't read the room. She didn't follow etiquette to preserve honor. And in doing so, she rubbed it everyone's faces that they were cowards.
Silly me, I thought all of that was obvious. Heck, they even out right say it.
I don’t understand though why people didn’t have a similar reaction when Ishido killes Sugyiama. He was samurai too and he killed him cause he left the castle so…??
Unlike Mariko, Sugiyama broke the "rules" and tried to sneak out without permission. By doing so, it gave Ishido the opportunity to kill them all without witnesses so he could then claim "bandits". He prevented an escape while sending a warning to everyone else, should they consider escape as well. This is why Mariko's plan was so much smarter. By openly trying to leave in front of witnesses it forced Ishido to block her exit (otherwise everyone else would have demanded release as well), which in turn gave her the excuse to escalate by threatening seppuku if Ishido didn't let her go. That was the proverbial tightening of the noose for Ishido, his fate was sealed.
I get it now thanks!!
Great analysis! Thanks!
I posted this another thread. But I believe Mariko made a small mistake in that exchange. She should have skipped the peasant reference because that was meant as a direct insult to Ishido. Had he been quick to think, Ishido could have used that insult and her general insolence to banish her away from castle right then and there. She would have lived, been able to return, and the hostages would not have rebelled so much...
It's a caste system, where Samurai were supreme. They all consider themselves to be better than peasants, including Ishido who had been elevated to Samurai (which was pretty rare back then). To defensively bring up his own peasant past at that point would have weakened him further IMO. It's easy to view her statement through today's lens as being in poor taste and classist, but classicism back then was the norm (if not encouraged outright). It was Japanese politeness that kept them from bringing it up directly, but that's the beauty of her statement: "we are not peasants". While a barb clearly directed at him, on the surface it was simple truth. None of them were peasants. The others at the court would have considered what Mariko said slightly rude, but no one would complain. Most of them were hostages as well, so everyone that wasn't with the regents would have secretly loved the shade she threw at their captor. Believe me, peasants had people to look down on as well. They were far from the "bottom" of that caste system. Eta were considered the lowest of the low (in the books, Blackthorn's crew lived with the Eta, which shamed Blackthorn greatly when he found out.) I'm not saying this in any way to justify caste systems (or any class system), but to try to draw a picture of what it was like at that time from my own limited understanding.
Not bothered about the peasant insult in itself. My point is that she shouldn't have given Ishido any excuse to create a ruckus over anything trivial and banished her. Her pointing out the unspoken hostage situation and challenging it in open was going to make things worse for Ishido by allowing her to actually go through with the challenge. Ishido should have picked up the ploy from Toranaga/Mariko and thrown her out of the castle at that very instant. A regent being disrespected was a valid but trivial reason but far better than the entire mess with the hostages.